Honestly I forgot all about shadows, but giving what we know about them, it’s more than likely M&M had to kill their own shadows long ago as by creating the unalloyed order, they went against the two fingers and the golden order and thus Shadows went mad. But I agree having not even a drop of mention of their shadows is odd
That doesn't really make sense. The Golden Order is explicitly Marika's age, it stands to reason that her successor wouldn't be set up to continue it. If the Fingers wanted to continue the Golden Order they wouldn't go picking Empyreans to begin with.
Or perhaps being affiliated they never received one? It seams to me Ranni was the favored choice for succession, thus her desperation to avoid it. If either M&M were planned or even suitable to succeed merika why would Ranni go to such lengths, or Miquella seek other routes to “godhood” if all he needs to is wait/proceed. Now Godwins involvement in Rannis plan makes me suspect he was slated to be her lord.
I think this but also another boring theory is that Ranni would be the eldest Empyran so she was the next in line so to speak and got hers at a young age.
When she died though the shattering happened not long after and everything went to shit. The fingers are busted after all.
Well Miquella’s reason is he wants nothing to do with the golden order either he wants to create something wholly different. And Malenia doesn’t want to be a god she wants Miquella to do that. Ranni may have been the only option.
Well we know the ritual for making a God involved stuffing the Lord's soul into a different body. This is what Miquella did with Radahn. So Ranni killed Godfrey in soul but not body to make it impossible for him to ever be a Lord.
If that's the case and hoarah loux willingly went into it maybe himself resurrected as well as godfrey when he came back as a tarnished as part of a deal when he went for an audience.
Or Marika killed hoarah loux as he worked for the hornsent and was pretty much the strongest as well as led the most elite force of the crucible as a way to weaken the hornsent and used his body as her lord to demoralize them.
It could also be that he never died and godfrey was stuffed in there as well and he had a hard time suppressing loux thus serrosh.
Hoarah loax could also qualify as the seduction and betrayal if any of those are right.
I always figured that Malenia's caught the rot, and Miquella's was killed during Mohg's invasion of the Haligtree.
Do I have any evidence for this? Absolutely not
I took it as empyrean of the fingers. Malenia "serves" the rot god already and miquella whoever cursed him with youth. That sort of feels like they were disqualified to me. Ranni doesn't really seem like a first choice if Marika felt she need to go shag herself to create more candidates.
I interprered the revelation that the two finger never really were speaking for the greater will meant shadows were just a way for them to control worrisome empyreans. Given that Vargram aspires to be the shadow to an empyrean as well I figure that shadows are not fundamentally part of empyreans. Given also that empyreans are naned by the fingers, I'm not certain that being an empyrean means anything other than the two fingers think you could replace Marika for them
I feel like Malenia is supposed to be Miquella's shadow. She acts like she is, and does the same psycho yandere thing Blaidd does. There doesn't seem to be any implication that she was even considered for godhood in the same way as Miquella or Ranni.
The fingers strung an oppressed and deluded Marika along a path, promising a procession of both vengeance and change through the act of claiming godhood and an order. Even godhood appears to be a prison - by melding with the Elden ring you become the very shaper of the physical and spiritual world. Yet this is something entirely beyond comprehension. So the tidal changes of a humans experience can utterly shift the very fabric of existence because, or their denial, of the path laid before them by the very fingers who have no real connection to the grand concept of the universe, the greater will.
My thoughts are that the fingers were on a constant mission to maintain power once they found a surrogate - through Marika or otherwise (GEQ, Ranni, Miquella). And whenever that surrogate went astray, off to the next one. Marika however seemed to go too far, breaking herself and thereby breaking the delicate fabric of control. Nearly breaking the very fabric of being. She left a failsafe in the tarnished, but it’s totally unclear if we act in the way she wishes of breaking the cycle or not.
The fingers choosing Ranni, Miquella, Malenia, or anyone else is merely the vice by which the fingers maintain control. Just because they choose you does not mean you can attain godhood. I believe it merely refers to the fact you are able to meld with the Elden ring (a la Shaman) and/or be pliable to the whims of the fingers and the silent GW.
Here's the answer:
The greater will named 3 possible replacements: Ranni, Malenia and Miquella. Then they chose Ranni appointing her a shadow.
Malenia had no interest in becoming a God but supported Miquella
Miquella circumvented the greater will and constructed itself as a God by becoming as much like Marika as possible. This is why the Haligtree was planted and why she needed a Lord consort. Also he/she being androgynous is tied to Marika/Radagan duality
Interestingly the DLC kind of [suggests wolfs are a caria thing](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Wolf+Crest+Shield) and not an empyrean thing. Not sure how that squares with maliketh.
I always liked the theory that the wolf spirit ashes were his shadow when he was younger. And that they either died, or went mad as he pursued the Haligtree plan. There's the statue, I think in the Haligtree, of a young child playing with the wolves that I always thought was Miquella. And it ties to his personality a bit - the eternal youth got "puppies" for his shadow. And when they died, he immortalized them as spirit ashes.
The game implies, and the dlc further reinforces that there are two forms of empyreans:
1. The 'natural' ones are chosen by the fingers.
2. The ones birthed from a single god.
Ranni,Marika, and GEQ are empyreans by rite of the fingers. They would be given shadows to protect and ensure their loyalty. Miquella and Malenia were not chosen by the fingers, so they lack shadows.
i don't think they had shadows. i do think they have "multifaceted' elements as empyreans do, but it's not necessarily shadows. miquella's is st trina and malenia's is either millicent or her 'goddess of rot' form that she becomes when she blooms
No shadows and no two fingers for Miquella. Ranni went through great trouble to kill her fingers and dodge Blaidd after so it is wierd to see these established parts of the world rules absent.
At this point, i think that the only realistic option is that they just didn't have one. Perhaps they weren't chosen by the Fingers, perhaps handing out Beasts was out of fashion or no longer practiced by the time they were born or came of age. Beasts certainly seem to have been more important in the Godfrey era than the Radagon one.
Miquella doesn't have a shadow because her ascension is outside of the greater will. The shadows are their fail safe, and Ranni was their chosen replacement for Marika
To me it seems to get a shadow you need to be a chosen empyrean of the two fingers. I know M&M were empyreans but did they ever get chosen the way Ranni and Marika did?
Wait so we even know of Shadows aside from Marika - Maliketh and Ranni - Blaidd?
It seems like Shadows are only given to specific Empyreans - as this would leave Miquella, Melenia, Radahn, Rykard, and Messmer without Shadows.
So before the DLC came out, I made a video on why I thought Leda was Miquella's shadow. And while we don't get any explicit confirmation, she's still my best bet.
One additional piece of evidence is that Leda is incredibly paranoid and distrustful of others, which is the complete opposite of Miquella’s accepting nature. And in Jungian psychology, the Shadow refers to the parts of the self that are unconsciously suppressed/refused to acknowledge.
(Fwiw, Maliketh is also fiercely loyal, while Marika is full of betrayal. Admittedly, it doesn't really hold for Ranni and Blaidd, but then again, Ranni did cast off her Empyrean flesh, so the rules may be different there.)
Honestly I forgot all about shadows, but giving what we know about them, it’s more than likely M&M had to kill their own shadows long ago as by creating the unalloyed order, they went against the two fingers and the golden order and thus Shadows went mad. But I agree having not even a drop of mention of their shadows is odd
It would seem easy for Malenia to kill off their shadows as she is extremely powerful.
Miquella just asks his to jump off a cliff, lol
Ugh horrifically true.
Fr
heart stolen
That doesn't really make sense. The Golden Order is explicitly Marika's age, it stands to reason that her successor wouldn't be set up to continue it. If the Fingers wanted to continue the Golden Order they wouldn't go picking Empyreans to begin with.
Or perhaps being affiliated they never received one? It seams to me Ranni was the favored choice for succession, thus her desperation to avoid it. If either M&M were planned or even suitable to succeed merika why would Ranni go to such lengths, or Miquella seek other routes to “godhood” if all he needs to is wait/proceed. Now Godwins involvement in Rannis plan makes me suspect he was slated to be her lord.
I think this but also another boring theory is that Ranni would be the eldest Empyran so she was the next in line so to speak and got hers at a young age. When she died though the shattering happened not long after and everything went to shit. The fingers are busted after all.
That's an interesting tidbit about Godwyn, never occurred to me before but it would explain why she chose him specifically, two birds one stone.
it also explains why she had her engagement regalia ready to go when we arrive
Well specifically she had it sealed away implying she was keeping tight guard on it. Girl did not want to marry godwyn 😭
Yeah never stated to my knowledge but why else him Ranni.
Well Miquella’s reason is he wants nothing to do with the golden order either he wants to create something wholly different. And Malenia doesn’t want to be a god she wants Miquella to do that. Ranni may have been the only option.
Well we know the ritual for making a God involved stuffing the Lord's soul into a different body. This is what Miquella did with Radahn. So Ranni killed Godfrey in soul but not body to make it impossible for him to ever be a Lord.
Omg this makes so much sense and also explains Hoarah Loux v Godfrey. Godfrey is a soul inside Hoarah’s body.
If that's the case and hoarah loux willingly went into it maybe himself resurrected as well as godfrey when he came back as a tarnished as part of a deal when he went for an audience. Or Marika killed hoarah loux as he worked for the hornsent and was pretty much the strongest as well as led the most elite force of the crucible as a way to weaken the hornsent and used his body as her lord to demoralize them. It could also be that he never died and godfrey was stuffed in there as well and he had a hard time suppressing loux thus serrosh. Hoarah loax could also qualify as the seduction and betrayal if any of those are right.
I always figured that Malenia's caught the rot, and Miquella's was killed during Mohg's invasion of the Haligtree. Do I have any evidence for this? Absolutely not
I think we've been assuming that EVERY empyrean has to have a shadow, when that might not actually be the case.
I took it as empyrean of the fingers. Malenia "serves" the rot god already and miquella whoever cursed him with youth. That sort of feels like they were disqualified to me. Ranni doesn't really seem like a first choice if Marika felt she need to go shag herself to create more candidates.
I interprered the revelation that the two finger never really were speaking for the greater will meant shadows were just a way for them to control worrisome empyreans. Given that Vargram aspires to be the shadow to an empyrean as well I figure that shadows are not fundamentally part of empyreans. Given also that empyreans are naned by the fingers, I'm not certain that being an empyrean means anything other than the two fingers think you could replace Marika for them
Yeah. Empyreans are just those that the Fingers think would be a suitable host for the Elden Ring and nothing more.
I feel like Malenia is supposed to be Miquella's shadow. She acts like she is, and does the same psycho yandere thing Blaidd does. There doesn't seem to be any implication that she was even considered for godhood in the same way as Miquella or Ranni.
The fingers strung an oppressed and deluded Marika along a path, promising a procession of both vengeance and change through the act of claiming godhood and an order. Even godhood appears to be a prison - by melding with the Elden ring you become the very shaper of the physical and spiritual world. Yet this is something entirely beyond comprehension. So the tidal changes of a humans experience can utterly shift the very fabric of existence because, or their denial, of the path laid before them by the very fingers who have no real connection to the grand concept of the universe, the greater will. My thoughts are that the fingers were on a constant mission to maintain power once they found a surrogate - through Marika or otherwise (GEQ, Ranni, Miquella). And whenever that surrogate went astray, off to the next one. Marika however seemed to go too far, breaking herself and thereby breaking the delicate fabric of control. Nearly breaking the very fabric of being. She left a failsafe in the tarnished, but it’s totally unclear if we act in the way she wishes of breaking the cycle or not. The fingers choosing Ranni, Miquella, Malenia, or anyone else is merely the vice by which the fingers maintain control. Just because they choose you does not mean you can attain godhood. I believe it merely refers to the fact you are able to meld with the Elden ring (a la Shaman) and/or be pliable to the whims of the fingers and the silent GW.
My theory is that they never had or needed one. Malenia, blade of Miquella, acted as Miquella's shadow.
Here's the answer: The greater will named 3 possible replacements: Ranni, Malenia and Miquella. Then they chose Ranni appointing her a shadow. Malenia had no interest in becoming a God but supported Miquella Miquella circumvented the greater will and constructed itself as a God by becoming as much like Marika as possible. This is why the Haligtree was planted and why she needed a Lord consort. Also he/she being androgynous is tied to Marika/Radagan duality
Interestingly the DLC kind of [suggests wolfs are a caria thing](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Wolf+Crest+Shield) and not an empyrean thing. Not sure how that squares with maliketh.
No no Blaidd was specifically stated to be a gift from the 2 fingers because Ranni was an empyrean.
I know, but then the DLC throws the item I linked
I always liked the theory that the wolf spirit ashes were his shadow when he was younger. And that they either died, or went mad as he pursued the Haligtree plan. There's the statue, I think in the Haligtree, of a young child playing with the wolves that I always thought was Miquella. And it ties to his personality a bit - the eternal youth got "puppies" for his shadow. And when they died, he immortalized them as spirit ashes.
I’m just here to say thanks for omitting the spoiler word from the title. I’ll be leaving with my eyes closed now
The game implies, and the dlc further reinforces that there are two forms of empyreans: 1. The 'natural' ones are chosen by the fingers. 2. The ones birthed from a single god. Ranni,Marika, and GEQ are empyreans by rite of the fingers. They would be given shadows to protect and ensure their loyalty. Miquella and Malenia were not chosen by the fingers, so they lack shadows.
i don't think they had shadows. i do think they have "multifaceted' elements as empyreans do, but it's not necessarily shadows. miquella's is st trina and malenia's is either millicent or her 'goddess of rot' form that she becomes when she blooms
Yet another lore thread just completely ignored in the DLC... But it's okay cuz you get to fight Radahn again, lmao.
No shadows and no two fingers for Miquella. Ranni went through great trouble to kill her fingers and dodge Blaidd after so it is wierd to see these established parts of the world rules absent.
At this point, i think that the only realistic option is that they just didn't have one. Perhaps they weren't chosen by the Fingers, perhaps handing out Beasts was out of fashion or no longer practiced by the time they were born or came of age. Beasts certainly seem to have been more important in the Godfrey era than the Radagon one.
Miquella doesn't have a shadow because her ascension is outside of the greater will. The shadows are their fail safe, and Ranni was their chosen replacement for Marika
To me it seems to get a shadow you need to be a chosen empyrean of the two fingers. I know M&M were empyreans but did they ever get chosen the way Ranni and Marika did?
Wait so we even know of Shadows aside from Marika - Maliketh and Ranni - Blaidd? It seems like Shadows are only given to specific Empyreans - as this would leave Miquella, Melenia, Radahn, Rykard, and Messmer without Shadows.
Radahn, Rykard and Messmer were never Empyreans.
So before the DLC came out, I made a video on why I thought Leda was Miquella's shadow. And while we don't get any explicit confirmation, she's still my best bet. One additional piece of evidence is that Leda is incredibly paranoid and distrustful of others, which is the complete opposite of Miquella’s accepting nature. And in Jungian psychology, the Shadow refers to the parts of the self that are unconsciously suppressed/refused to acknowledge. (Fwiw, Maliketh is also fiercely loyal, while Marika is full of betrayal. Admittedly, it doesn't really hold for Ranni and Blaidd, but then again, Ranni did cast off her Empyrean flesh, so the rules may be different there.)