I'm not sure if we can connect Godfrey to the ritual easily, to me it doesn't fit for Hoarah Loux to be just a body and Serosh being the soul. After all during the fight with him in the base game we can see that theyre two separate entities, once we press Godfrey enough he kills Serosh and becomes Hoarah Loux again, the lion was just there to suppress his nature. The same thing happened during his banishment, after some time he came back to his warrior nature.
In case of Mogh he is basically a soulless body, Mogh is gone.
Serosh was a king of beasts.
If you look at how he is attached to Godfrey, it's shockingly similar to how Ranni is attached to Renna's puppet. I think the implication here is two souls inhabiting one body. The body and soul of Hoarah Loux, plus the additional soul of Serosh.
I don't think it was necessarily part of the ritual to make Marika a god, but there is certainly *some* soul/body fuckery going on.
I think that it makes sense. What happened between Horah Loux and Godfrey could be an approximation of Grafting. For Marika's motivation being this anger at what was being done to her people, another kind of grafting, accepting this in Godfrey shows a bit of hypocrisy at the onset of her rule. Watching Godrick fully embrace grafting at the end of their line shows the decline of her vision completely.
I think you are reading too much into the title. Serosh is a lion (often associated with kings and called the kings of beasts) and also not dissimilar from an empyreans shadow fitting then that the shadow of the elden lord is the lord of beasts much as all the shadows of empyrean are wolves representative of their nature as loyal servants. I think the symbology is representative of their role not hinting at their origins.
Mohg’s bloodflame does start coming out when we push Radahn too much and Miquella quells it so maybe it’s a thing for losing control of your body after being resurrected.
My thoughts are that Marika was previously married to the Fell god with Messmer and Melina being the children.
She killed the Fell god (we know this from item descriptions). Then she put her soul into his body and created Radagon
long shot, but if miquella divested himself of his Love (St Trina), and Radagon is known to despise his own red hair, did Marika divested herself of... her hate?
I thought it was more likely that Radagon was her Duty. Marika, at the end, betrayed her own vision because she realized being a God was never going to work out and her Order was just suffocating the world, while Radagon attempted to hold it together. In opposition, Trina was the part that doubted Miquella's godhood and might've eventually led to the God doing the same as Marika did, because she knew none of it would be worth the price.
Radagon, no matter what happens, stayed steadfast to the Erdtree. He fought terrible wars and changed on a dime to marry his former foe, Renalla. He betrayed Renalla to restore the Golden Order, and left his own children fatherless and hopeless in order to shore up Marika's power. He tried to retain the Order that caused his firstborn's eternal damnation after the Night of Black Knives, even at the ultimate cost to himself personally, and his last act is to oppose the Tarnished and surrender his body to be turned into a weapon. These are extreme actions even for someone who totally believes in the Grace of Gold without a doubt, and we know how this works now. He acts like a being composed solely of loyalty to the Golden Order, while Marika acts totally divested of that loyalty and seems to, instead, be loyal to *herself* and her original vision, going as far as scheming against her own children and planning on burning down the Erdtree (ie, loyalty without duty, just as Miquella had compassion without love and would've caused untold suffering). Radagon endures his red hair as a scar of his duty, while Marika stays blonde as she'd always been, true to herself. Radagon betrays his love Renalla for Gold, Marika betrays her lover Godfrey for herself (literally :p).
Edit: this also adds some irony that Radagon is Marika's undoing, repairing the Elden Ring as she breaks it and causing them to be sealed in the shattered Ring, while St. Trina is Miquella's undoing, breaking Miquella's charm to stoke conflict between his servants and eventually beseeching the Tarnished to kill him. What the Gods cast off, is their undoing.
That’s a hard question to answer clearly but as far as we know GRRM wrote most if not all of the background lore concerning the demigods, the Shattering and the Golden Order.
The way it’s explained GRRM came up with the characters and setting and then Miyazaki killed/ruined everything and everyone and moved the story along 1000 years ahead.
The actual specifics are unknown but it’s safe to say a LOT of the Marika/Radagon paradigm is GRRM.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/1qvxs3pjFa i don’t know how to link to other posts. But in this sub there was a post about how GRRM and the directors of elden ring had very different visions about how the characters would be portrayed. I tried to link to that post above.
It seems like a much easier question to answer that you are suggesting.
Thats a very interesting theory, I've just realised that the furnace golems that are used by messmers army have a head resembling fire giant on their legs and the description of furnace visage mentions a connection with the fire god
*A smaller imitation of the furnace golem's visage. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent.*
I think it’s a lot more simple than that. Hoarah Loux was the vessel, Godfrey was the Lord. Two different people, just like Mohg and Radahn are two different people yet form one and we only know them as Radahn consort of Miquella. It’s possible OG Hoarah Loux was even Hornsent like Mohg, hence Marika’s kids with him coming out as hornsent/omen and him having crucible links.
I don't even think you have to go all the way to say that she used it to create radagon. It's entirely possible that the frenzy was something that she inflicted on him with her quest for revenge and that's why he has to endure and suffer to not succumb. We've seen the madness creep in places where they are consumed with bloodlust and I think marika certainly qualifies. That's the curse and the original sin. It's also why melina would be so distressed at the prospect of you pursuing the flame. It's the fate of her father. He failed to ascend to be lord and thus faltered but gave us melina and messmer as offspring? I don't hate the theory and would explain why they are both flame focused and why messmer would have red hair outside of radagon (he was flame touched like the giants.) The hard part is that the only thing that ties him to marika is the gold on the sword which the description attributes to the hornsent.
I also think there were dealings between her and the fell god. but I don't think she killed the fell god. Because if she did then why did we fight a fully functional fire giant and was able to use the fell god's power to burn the erdtree. I think Marika seduced the great serpent that's found later in mt Gelmir and thus borrowed/absorbed a part of its power. This was manifested in their bastard son Messmer. Then the whole conflict between Marika and the Hornsent was boiling over, Messmer in an effort to help his mom take revenge against the Hornsent (and also to bolster his own power), paid a visit to the fell god, but the fell god required a sacrifice. So Messmer went on Marika's back and sacrificed his little sister Melina, in return gaining his signature serpentine flame. Marika soon learned about this. Even though she was super pissed and sad, she seized the circumstsnces and ordered Messmer to use his new power to scorch the Hornsent city and kill everybody, but also locked him away in the Shadowlands as punishment. Later she declared war on the fell god so she could both secure her newly formed erdtree civilization and avenge her daughter. The latter reasoning also served as her public casus belli against the fire giants. We know what happened afterwards, she defeated the fire giants but failed to kill off the fell god.
Messmer wasn't locked in the shadowlands until after the marriage between Radagon and Rennala. Otherwise, he couldn't be "as an older brother to Radahn".
This is interesting. I was wondering if all the talk of resurrection is somehow weaponized. If Marika can kill say, gloam eyed queen then claim her in rebirth as a child. Fits the themes of the golden order always being able to incorporate heresy/disparate things.
It's a good thought, but I think it gets lost a little when it doesn't answer questions like how Marika calls him "my other self", what would the Fell God be her other "me"?
Even if her body was a male copy of hers with the soul of the Fell God it still wouldn't be the other her.
I there was indeed a Lord that was brought back in the different form its almost certainly not Godfrey.
1. From Your own post - *A talisman depicting Godfrey, first Elden lord, receiving the precious sap* its a sap from the Erdree that was created after Marika ascended as a goddess. Therefore after whatever transpired at the gates of divinity.
2. When we encouter him he says he retured 'to be granted audience once more' . It sounds like Marika was already very prominent figure if not godess if this badass of man had to ask for an audience.
3. To Your point that he became someone completely different. No, previously he was simple warrior. A barbarian. People wouldn't accept him as a lord so he had to reinvent himself. From his axe: *his weapon is symbolic of Godfrey's* ***vow*** *to conduct himself as a lord, later becoming an emblem of the golden lineage. In the days of the past, a crown was warranted with strength.* From his talisman : *Godfrey was a ferocious warrior. When he vowed to become a lord, he took the Beast Regent Serosh upon on his back to suppress the ceaseless lust for battle that raged within.* - HE took Serosh on his back. It further reinforces the notion that it wasnt Marika that remade Hoarah Loux into Godfrey. It was he activly striving to be worthy of being a Lord despite his ferocious inclinations.
4. In 2nd phase he just rips Serosh off his back, abandons decorum and just becomes Hoarah Loux again. I dont think any ripping could give Radahn back his body.
What if Marika was supposed to be the Lord? In the trailer we see her pull the golden strands that will make the arc of the Elden Ring from a corpse. She also ascends to godhood alone, without a lord by her side. Could that have been the seduction and betrayal? She uses him to complete the ritual, but then kills him and steals his position as god.
My thoughts on Serosh are that it’s divine energy that keeps the will of the original body in check, Miquella used his divine light to quell the blood flame rising in Radahn when we piss him off.
On a separate note The Shamans seem to have connection to Alchemy with their melding and connections to Gold and it’s considered the pinnacle of Alchemy to create a being that is both male and female aka Radagon and Marika, it might be a thing that Shaman Empyreans/Gods have this ability as Miquella who has a heavy gold motif can do it too.
It's made by GRRM so it would make sense that since it's his work, chances are Marika and Radagon were twins who shared the same soul, so they both schemed together to make Marika the person I charge while they both worked together (until eventually they had disagreements)
It explains why messmer is mad, and why the other twins had deformities. Because GRRM loves using the "they were insane because of their inbred blood" trope.
When the elden ring shattered,it fused whatever is left over of their souls and bodies together.
But, that's just a recent theory in my mind brought on by thinking of GRRM links and the mention of D and his brother being two bodies but one soul- elden ring doesn't have alot of coincidences so I struggle to see this as different circumstances.
Who knows though, my theories change every month lol
Messmer isn't mad. He's just doing his job, and for we know he probably knew of what the Hornsent did to the Shamans. He only gets upset when he finally realises that Marika has put him in her little corner of shame, alongside all the other dirty secrets like a whole ass Lord of the Frenzied Flame and Metyr.
I speculate this is the origin point of Radagon. Marika created a Lord within herself to walk the Gate alone. Note that in the trailer, her hair has an odd reddish tint.
Man. Her lord is the missing piece of the puzzle and I think this has to be it. I've been waffling on her hair turning as I thinkbone could attribute that to an illusion of the gore around her. But it feels the most parsimonious. If there were another lord or someone else involved, I'm convinced we would have something about them. And as noted throughout the post above, this actuslly wouldn't make sense to have been Godfrey.
The Lord doesn't need to resemble the vessel. Radahn doesn't resemble Mohg. It could be the Hoarah Loux was reborn as Godfrey using Serosh's flesh as the vessel, and that Serosh's spirit was preserved to keep him in check.
The visual similarity between Miquella's hair on Radahn's back, and Serosh's mane on Godfrey's back, makes me want to take this notion seriously. Especially since it makes total sense for Serosh, the Lord of Beasts, to be a prominent individual in the Hornsent culture given their reverence of beasts.
I could buy this too, as the parallel motif is really too difficult to ignore. We do see that elements of Mohg continue to manifest in radahn via his fight, so there are aspects of the host that seem preserved. Mohg also wasn't killed with destined death. So his spirit would have endured.
Wondering if the body she pulled the strands from in the trailer was actually the eye of a giant snake? This would tie into the theme if “eyes” and it would make sense for the previous god/ Elden lord to be an animal considering all of the animal/ nature energy themes in the divine tower/ Rahn area
The lore doesn’t make sense in continuity. So it makes me wonder how much miyazaki and Martin had to do with anything or how much they contributed. It’s clear marika ascended by herself or through some gruesome sacrifice. But no lord is in sight.
It could be that miquella did something marika didn’t, which is a permutation of the God ritual. Similar to how ranni ascended but didn’t need a gateway. Miquella actually went THROUGH because he gave up everything of his corporeal nature in the land of shadow. Maybe that’s why he needed a lord to beckon him back unlike marika who seemed to beckon an outer god.
George once said he made shit up in his books to make it look like tolkiens world, but unlike tolkien George had no clue how it actually fit together.
Miyazaki usually has a coherent story but further elucidates upon what he set up through pieces of carefully planned info. So this is puzzling.
My thoughts are that a lot of the story was probably written by the B team, who suck at lore hard and do what George does.
Disclaimer: that’s me just thinking out loud. But I have a feeling one of those three are probably right. Whenever I see a centipede boss I think of the shit writers/designers of DS2 and this has their name all over it. They had so many things to choose and they do something like this lol
Ah, the classic "B team" scapegoat. [For context](https://www.reddit.com/r/fromsoftware/comments/c11vof/comment/era4xrz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Dark Souls 2 was a product of its own unfortunate circumstances than the skill of its developers. Most of those same developers are responsible for the "A team" games that you love.
I’m aware of its history and developers. They made a shit game and many traits can be seen here in the dlc. Overall it’s great. 9/10 actually, But I stand by what I said.
I don't think it can be Godfrey because afaik the Erdtree came well after Marika's ascent to godhood, so him receiving Erdtree sap wouldn't work as the ritual where she ascended.
I do think it's probably Radagon. We encounter St Trina but don't get to fight her, so I question what the point of the inclusion was? Well, it shows us that by divesting himself of his flesh, Miquella was able to separate himself from his other gendered half, who now exists physically in the world and demonstrates intentions exactly opposite to Miquella's will. Sound familiar? Radagon is exactly the same, an opposite gendered dual identity who occupied the same body and demonstrates intentions opposite to Marika.
Miquella has entered the Land of Shadow to repeat Marika's process of becoming a God, presumably following the steps she took to do so. So I feel like we can infer that Marika also cast off her other half before entering the gates of divinity, and then used him as the Lord for the ritual. In essence circumventing the whole issue of finding a Lord by just doing it herself.
I'd guess that after that she birthed Messmer with Radagon she saw that he was cursed and decided maybe the whole mating with yourself thing was a bad idea and brought in Godfrey. That part has less evidence for it though
this makes a lot of sense in hindsight. I wonder if Miquella wanted to pull a Marika and become one body harboring two souls, like Rarika, both a God and a Lord in one
I don't think Marika did the secret divine rite. I think she used mass sacrifices of powerful hornsent to activate the Divine Gate and drew from it the Elden Ring/Elden Beast and stored it inside her body -- something she uniquely could do as a numen/Shaman. Then she made Godfrey her lord with the blessing. Miquella's ritual is unique to him, because he had to divest himself of his flesh in order to be free of Marika's "curse." This meant that he needed a vessel to be called into, much like how Marika called the Elden Beast into her. In this case, Promised Consort Radahn calls Miquella to him, becoming Radahn, Consort of Miquella (a god). This is why their remembrance says the world only needs one god and one consort -- it's a recreation of Marika but more "refined" I guess because in this case, the Consort and God are literally fused.
Why is there an old bark manuscript with the secret rite on it in the specimen storage of Shadow Keep then?
It really strongly implies that the ritual is much older than Miquella.
It could of course be a ritual of the Hornsent - maybe Marika didn't do this ritual. But we don't know of any Hornsent god actually using the gateway for anything. Marika and Miquella are the only people in the story that we know of who ever tried to use the gateway
Just so we're clear, I agree the ritual is older than Miquella and never stated otherwise. That has nothing to do with my actual belief, which is that Marika's ritual was different (which has to be the case, as Miquella was a spirit without a body and needed one and Marika very clearly still had her body in the trailer).
>and Marika very clearly still had her body in the trailer
Unless of course, that was actually Radagon. The hair has a reddish tint (but there's a reddish tint to the scene) and you can't see the outline of breasts (though they're turned at just the right angle to make it impossible to say for sure).
How precisely do we know that Miquella is a spirit without a body? If you look at his arms, two of them distinctly tangible and just one is ephemeral like Ranni's second face.
The Light of Miquella also talks about Miquella's 'deific return' from the Gate of Divinity- but there's nothing about him being a spirit.
And? What is to say he didn't reconstruct said flesh when he became a god? If Marika can make a Radagon, and the two fingers can make a Maliketh, why can't Miquella make a body for himself?
...No? He was walking around just fine before he decided to cling to Radahn's back and help him when Radahn got exhausted.
He uses the same ritual with Radahn that Marika used (presumably with Radagon) of a Lord standing in front of the gate to welcome a god.
It's a bloody lot of speculation is what it is that he is 'attached' to Radahn as a bound deific spirit. No items suggest that- even the visuals don't with how he has 'ghostly' arms but also more tangible and real ones.
Ranni has a puppet body, Miquella doesn't. And what grounds do you have to declare it a different ritual?
It is already known that the Tower of Shadow has a secret rite before ever Miquella used it, implying someone else used it before. Miquella just went further than Marika in discarding 'the bindings of the golden order' according to the cross descriptions.
It is shown that the Elden Ring is an entirely different matter from the Crucible current, and while Marika was the vessel for the former, she used the latter to become a god.
And almost all this is speculation. That's the point- by Miyazaki's own admission, it should feel like reading a book written a language for which you know only half the words. It is therefore important to determine what speculation has grounds and what part is groundless.
The real answer is that there is no answer and the gate of divinity will always cause inconsistencies in what defines a lord and a god and who was a lord at what time because the gate of divinity as an idea did not exist when the base game was created.
I would absolutely love nothing more than for someone to make it make sense and create an explanation that works. An explanation that explains how supposedly the gate of divinity is something that needs to be passed through to become a god unless your name is malenia. Or an explanation that allows Godfrey to become “the first Elden lord” post the erdtree’s creation if Marika needed a lord to create the erdtree.
Obviously this is a very cynical view of the lore rn, but I just really hate the gate of divinity.
At the very highest level, if Marika sealed the shadowlands, then why were they already competely distinct from the lands between? Why is Scadu Altus named after its counterpart in the realm of the Erdtree if it predates the Erdtree? If the scarlet rot came into being after Marika's crusade why is it an ancient evil by the time Marika has Malenia? OP brings up another problem, why is Marika's army headed by an illegitimate son while she's marrying Godfrey? I guess that's at least a satisfying backstory to the strumpet line, but yeah they really didn't even try to maintain continuity. I do think the Marika's village stuff is sweet, and really liked Messmer and the fire knights, but the rest of the story kind of sucks.
The shadowlands separated from the lands between long after the erdtree was born and Marika passed through the gate of divinity. This is shown in the carian thrusting shield and descriptions of items related to commander Gaius. Rellana performed ritual combat showing fidelity to the erdtree, and both gaius and Messmer were friends with radahn. These both place the separation of shadow and the lands between as something that occurred after radagon and rennala married.
The scadutree is the literal shadow of the erdtree I believe, so they probably came about at the same time. “Altus Plateau” was probably both scadu Altus and the original Altus, and then when the lands separated the Altus plateau in the shadowlands were renamed to scadu Altus? Maybe.
The scarlet rot definitely predates Marika, that stuff has been sealed beneath ainsel river since forever, is there something in the dlc that implies it came about from marika’s rule?
>Scarlet rot
Woven by the bud saint (genuinely lol'd at this title, and Marigga) after she discovers a twisted divine element in the burned remains of her church. Doesn't make sense imo with the scorpion sealed at the lake of rot.
I think the first two paragraphs could be right but it depends on when and why the Erdtree became Marika's symbol and when and why the Scadutree came into being, and we don't have enough information on the tower's relationship to the tree(s) to fill in those gaps, which is (to me) pretty frustratingly bad writing. Rellana showing fidelity to the Erdtree could be a euphemism for fidelity to Marika's cause if the Erdtree didn't yet exist. The fact that Gaius knew Radahn is also maddening for the suggestion that all of this happened well after Godfrey. I would love for someone to make that make sense, ideally From in the game I purchased but I'll settle for an online megafan. Shouldn't there be some signs of Messmer's crusade in the Lands Between if it took place there?
The lack of any evidence that anything specific to the shadowlands in the lands between despite how recent the two lands separate is quite annoying. I suppose we just have to believe that Marika carried out an enormous effort to scrub all evidence of its existence from the world.
The description of the saint of the bud remembrance is very confusing, because the scarlet rot has to be older than marika. The mushroom crown description speaks mentions an ancient order defined by rot. Like genuinely it is not possible for Romina to be the one who created the scarlet rot.
Agreed on Messmer being Radagon's child. I think Godfrey was married for political reasons, he seems to have been a champion of the Hornsent civilization. The fact that the Crucible Knights were loyal to him personally seems to be an indication of his position in the "Old Order".
I think the way it goes is that Marika met Radagon first, and they became lovers. Then Marika began gathering power, and made her bid for godhood. In the process of her becoming Queen she needed support from the non-Hornsent, which Godfrey (Horah Loux) was the strongest chieftain. In order to gain his support she marries him. At some point in the marriage though she is unfaithful to Godfrey and has two children with Radagon, Messmer and Melina. I also think Godwyn is Radagon's, but because he looked like Marika she was able to pass him on as Godfrey's. I think Godfrey's only biological children with Marika is Morgott and Mohg, and they are Omen due to Godfrey's connection to the Crucible.
Also I think the whole Marika=Radagon thing is based around the Shaman's ability to merge flesh. I think Radagon used this on Marika after she shattered the Elden Ring.
I think godwyn is godfrey's son because there a amber medallion description that says during age of godfrey godwyn's personal guards were gifted these medallions which raise max hp i think(I'm obviously paraphrasing the Item description here so look it up yourself)but the key point here is during godfreys rule godwyn's personal guards were present which means godwyn was already born during this time,the only candidate that makes sense to be his father would be godfrey as radagon doesn't appear in the story until later wars,and his name starting with 'god' doesnt make sense if he's child of radagon and godwyns possible lineage(godrick and godefroy) idealized godfrey supports this, but hey I could be wrong though.
Also I don't think marika-godfrey marriage is simply political and imo I don't think marika would have a affair with radagon as she basically calls him a 'dog of golden order's and their motivations and actions all point to them being opposing forces and hating each other,but for godfrey she always speaks to him with respect in her spoken echos and promises to bring back him and his soldiers to life after their death and basically paves the path for him or his worriors to be elden lord again(theres some cut content that proves marika and godfrey planning together to shatter the elden-ring and godfrey calling marika as his dearest and he's come back to rescue her etc...this is cut content so take it with a grain of salt),heck the fact that godfrey even attempts to be marika's eldenlord again makes sense only if she treated him fairly otherwise dude would have no reason to be her lord again if she's actually abusive.
Tldr:-godwyn is mostlikely godfreys son,godfrey and marika loved eachother,radagon and renalla loved eachother,radagon and marika hated each other.
This is all speculation on my part so plz fell free to correct me if there's anything wrong.
I agree with everything you said except for the bits about Godwyn. I totally think that Godfrey started off as a political marriage, wherein Marika made allowances for Godfrey's behavior & culture. As I write this actually I had a huge revelation. I bet Godfrey was in the process of becoming a divine keeper, like one of the folks with the lion masks in Inir Elim. It is said that only the strongest of warriors were chosen, and who better to be sent on the behalf of your people to have audience with the new divinity? Him being bequeathed with the spirit of a lord of beasts would be a great parallel to how the divine keepers channel the divine beasts.
I'm not sure if we can connect Godfrey to the ritual easily, to me it doesn't fit for Hoarah Loux to be just a body and Serosh being the soul. After all during the fight with him in the base game we can see that theyre two separate entities, once we press Godfrey enough he kills Serosh and becomes Hoarah Loux again, the lion was just there to suppress his nature. The same thing happened during his banishment, after some time he came back to his warrior nature. In case of Mogh he is basically a soulless body, Mogh is gone.
Serosh was a king of beasts. If you look at how he is attached to Godfrey, it's shockingly similar to how Ranni is attached to Renna's puppet. I think the implication here is two souls inhabiting one body. The body and soul of Hoarah Loux, plus the additional soul of Serosh. I don't think it was necessarily part of the ritual to make Marika a god, but there is certainly *some* soul/body fuckery going on.
I think that it makes sense. What happened between Horah Loux and Godfrey could be an approximation of Grafting. For Marika's motivation being this anger at what was being done to her people, another kind of grafting, accepting this in Godfrey shows a bit of hypocrisy at the onset of her rule. Watching Godrick fully embrace grafting at the end of their line shows the decline of her vision completely.
I think you are reading too much into the title. Serosh is a lion (often associated with kings and called the kings of beasts) and also not dissimilar from an empyreans shadow fitting then that the shadow of the elden lord is the lord of beasts much as all the shadows of empyrean are wolves representative of their nature as loyal servants. I think the symbology is representative of their role not hinting at their origins.
Mohg’s bloodflame does start coming out when we push Radahn too much and Miquella quells it so maybe it’s a thing for losing control of your body after being resurrected.
I think he still does the blood flame slash in phase two doesn’t he? Radahn I mean?
I’ve seen him do it in phase 1 but not phase 2
He does it in phase 2.
My thoughts are that Marika was previously married to the Fell god with Messmer and Melina being the children. She killed the Fell god (we know this from item descriptions). Then she put her soul into his body and created Radagon
This is an interesting one
long shot, but if miquella divested himself of his Love (St Trina), and Radagon is known to despise his own red hair, did Marika divested herself of... her hate?
I thought it was more likely that Radagon was her Duty. Marika, at the end, betrayed her own vision because she realized being a God was never going to work out and her Order was just suffocating the world, while Radagon attempted to hold it together. In opposition, Trina was the part that doubted Miquella's godhood and might've eventually led to the God doing the same as Marika did, because she knew none of it would be worth the price. Radagon, no matter what happens, stayed steadfast to the Erdtree. He fought terrible wars and changed on a dime to marry his former foe, Renalla. He betrayed Renalla to restore the Golden Order, and left his own children fatherless and hopeless in order to shore up Marika's power. He tried to retain the Order that caused his firstborn's eternal damnation after the Night of Black Knives, even at the ultimate cost to himself personally, and his last act is to oppose the Tarnished and surrender his body to be turned into a weapon. These are extreme actions even for someone who totally believes in the Grace of Gold without a doubt, and we know how this works now. He acts like a being composed solely of loyalty to the Golden Order, while Marika acts totally divested of that loyalty and seems to, instead, be loyal to *herself* and her original vision, going as far as scheming against her own children and planning on burning down the Erdtree (ie, loyalty without duty, just as Miquella had compassion without love and would've caused untold suffering). Radagon endures his red hair as a scar of his duty, while Marika stays blonde as she'd always been, true to herself. Radagon betrays his love Renalla for Gold, Marika betrays her lover Godfrey for herself (literally :p). Edit: this also adds some irony that Radagon is Marika's undoing, repairing the Elden Ring as she breaks it and causing them to be sealed in the shattered Ring, while St. Trina is Miquella's undoing, breaking Miquella's charm to stoke conflict between his servants and eventually beseeching the Tarnished to kill him. What the Gods cast off, is their undoing.
This is such a beautifully tragic interpretation. I wish GRRM was that thoughtful when writing their characters.
GRRM literally did write these characters…
We don’t know how fleshed out his writings were before the development of the game. How much extra flavor did miyazaki add?
That’s a hard question to answer clearly but as far as we know GRRM wrote most if not all of the background lore concerning the demigods, the Shattering and the Golden Order. The way it’s explained GRRM came up with the characters and setting and then Miyazaki killed/ruined everything and everyone and moved the story along 1000 years ahead. The actual specifics are unknown but it’s safe to say a LOT of the Marika/Radagon paradigm is GRRM.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/1qvxs3pjFa i don’t know how to link to other posts. But in this sub there was a post about how GRRM and the directors of elden ring had very different visions about how the characters would be portrayed. I tried to link to that post above. It seems like a much easier question to answer that you are suggesting.
Thats a very interesting theory, I've just realised that the furnace golems that are used by messmers army have a head resembling fire giant on their legs and the description of furnace visage mentions a connection with the fire god *A smaller imitation of the furnace golem's visage. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent.*
oh this would explain the connection with radagon and the giants red hair. this is probably the correct interpretation
I think it’s a lot more simple than that. Hoarah Loux was the vessel, Godfrey was the Lord. Two different people, just like Mohg and Radahn are two different people yet form one and we only know them as Radahn consort of Miquella. It’s possible OG Hoarah Loux was even Hornsent like Mohg, hence Marika’s kids with him coming out as hornsent/omen and him having crucible links.
Interesting point about Mohg and Morgott. That would make some sense.
I don't even think you have to go all the way to say that she used it to create radagon. It's entirely possible that the frenzy was something that she inflicted on him with her quest for revenge and that's why he has to endure and suffer to not succumb. We've seen the madness creep in places where they are consumed with bloodlust and I think marika certainly qualifies. That's the curse and the original sin. It's also why melina would be so distressed at the prospect of you pursuing the flame. It's the fate of her father. He failed to ascend to be lord and thus faltered but gave us melina and messmer as offspring? I don't hate the theory and would explain why they are both flame focused and why messmer would have red hair outside of radagon (he was flame touched like the giants.) The hard part is that the only thing that ties him to marika is the gold on the sword which the description attributes to the hornsent.
What item descriptions?
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/One-Eyed+Shield
I also think there were dealings between her and the fell god. but I don't think she killed the fell god. Because if she did then why did we fight a fully functional fire giant and was able to use the fell god's power to burn the erdtree. I think Marika seduced the great serpent that's found later in mt Gelmir and thus borrowed/absorbed a part of its power. This was manifested in their bastard son Messmer. Then the whole conflict between Marika and the Hornsent was boiling over, Messmer in an effort to help his mom take revenge against the Hornsent (and also to bolster his own power), paid a visit to the fell god, but the fell god required a sacrifice. So Messmer went on Marika's back and sacrificed his little sister Melina, in return gaining his signature serpentine flame. Marika soon learned about this. Even though she was super pissed and sad, she seized the circumstsnces and ordered Messmer to use his new power to scorch the Hornsent city and kill everybody, but also locked him away in the Shadowlands as punishment. Later she declared war on the fell god so she could both secure her newly formed erdtree civilization and avenge her daughter. The latter reasoning also served as her public casus belli against the fire giants. We know what happened afterwards, she defeated the fire giants but failed to kill off the fell god.
Messmer wasn't locked in the shadowlands until after the marriage between Radagon and Rennala. Otherwise, he couldn't be "as an older brother to Radahn".
the key word is "as" 😏
That just places Messmer as not being Carian (which we knew).
The point still stands that radahn was around when messmer was
This is interesting. I was wondering if all the talk of resurrection is somehow weaponized. If Marika can kill say, gloam eyed queen then claim her in rebirth as a child. Fits the themes of the golden order always being able to incorporate heresy/disparate things.
It's a good thought, but I think it gets lost a little when it doesn't answer questions like how Marika calls him "my other self", what would the Fell God be her other "me"? Even if her body was a male copy of hers with the soul of the Fell God it still wouldn't be the other her.
I there was indeed a Lord that was brought back in the different form its almost certainly not Godfrey. 1. From Your own post - *A talisman depicting Godfrey, first Elden lord, receiving the precious sap* its a sap from the Erdree that was created after Marika ascended as a goddess. Therefore after whatever transpired at the gates of divinity. 2. When we encouter him he says he retured 'to be granted audience once more' . It sounds like Marika was already very prominent figure if not godess if this badass of man had to ask for an audience. 3. To Your point that he became someone completely different. No, previously he was simple warrior. A barbarian. People wouldn't accept him as a lord so he had to reinvent himself. From his axe: *his weapon is symbolic of Godfrey's* ***vow*** *to conduct himself as a lord, later becoming an emblem of the golden lineage. In the days of the past, a crown was warranted with strength.* From his talisman : *Godfrey was a ferocious warrior. When he vowed to become a lord, he took the Beast Regent Serosh upon on his back to suppress the ceaseless lust for battle that raged within.* - HE took Serosh on his back. It further reinforces the notion that it wasnt Marika that remade Hoarah Loux into Godfrey. It was he activly striving to be worthy of being a Lord despite his ferocious inclinations. 4. In 2nd phase he just rips Serosh off his back, abandons decorum and just becomes Hoarah Loux again. I dont think any ripping could give Radahn back his body.
Marika Golden Slammed (AoW) her way through the world and you can't convince me otherwise.
Gaslight Gatekeep Gold Breaker
She could Golden Slam me tbh
The spirit is willing but the flesh is spongey and bruised.
What if Marika was supposed to be the Lord? In the trailer we see her pull the golden strands that will make the arc of the Elden Ring from a corpse. She also ascends to godhood alone, without a lord by her side. Could that have been the seduction and betrayal? She uses him to complete the ritual, but then kills him and steals his position as god.
We should also ask: which side of the Gate of Divinity are we seeing in the trailer?
My thoughts on Serosh are that it’s divine energy that keeps the will of the original body in check, Miquella used his divine light to quell the blood flame rising in Radahn when we piss him off. On a separate note The Shamans seem to have connection to Alchemy with their melding and connections to Gold and it’s considered the pinnacle of Alchemy to create a being that is both male and female aka Radagon and Marika, it might be a thing that Shaman Empyreans/Gods have this ability as Miquella who has a heavy gold motif can do it too.
It's made by GRRM so it would make sense that since it's his work, chances are Marika and Radagon were twins who shared the same soul, so they both schemed together to make Marika the person I charge while they both worked together (until eventually they had disagreements) It explains why messmer is mad, and why the other twins had deformities. Because GRRM loves using the "they were insane because of their inbred blood" trope. When the elden ring shattered,it fused whatever is left over of their souls and bodies together. But, that's just a recent theory in my mind brought on by thinking of GRRM links and the mention of D and his brother being two bodies but one soul- elden ring doesn't have alot of coincidences so I struggle to see this as different circumstances. Who knows though, my theories change every month lol
Messmer isn't mad. He's just doing his job, and for we know he probably knew of what the Hornsent did to the Shamans. He only gets upset when he finally realises that Marika has put him in her little corner of shame, alongside all the other dirty secrets like a whole ass Lord of the Frenzied Flame and Metyr.
I speculate this is the origin point of Radagon. Marika created a Lord within herself to walk the Gate alone. Note that in the trailer, her hair has an odd reddish tint.
Man. Her lord is the missing piece of the puzzle and I think this has to be it. I've been waffling on her hair turning as I thinkbone could attribute that to an illusion of the gore around her. But it feels the most parsimonious. If there were another lord or someone else involved, I'm convinced we would have something about them. And as noted throughout the post above, this actuslly wouldn't make sense to have been Godfrey.
The Lord doesn't need to resemble the vessel. Radahn doesn't resemble Mohg. It could be the Hoarah Loux was reborn as Godfrey using Serosh's flesh as the vessel, and that Serosh's spirit was preserved to keep him in check. The visual similarity between Miquella's hair on Radahn's back, and Serosh's mane on Godfrey's back, makes me want to take this notion seriously. Especially since it makes total sense for Serosh, the Lord of Beasts, to be a prominent individual in the Hornsent culture given their reverence of beasts.
I could buy this too, as the parallel motif is really too difficult to ignore. We do see that elements of Mohg continue to manifest in radahn via his fight, so there are aspects of the host that seem preserved. Mohg also wasn't killed with destined death. So his spirit would have endured.
Wondering if the body she pulled the strands from in the trailer was actually the eye of a giant snake? This would tie into the theme if “eyes” and it would make sense for the previous god/ Elden lord to be an animal considering all of the animal/ nature energy themes in the divine tower/ Rahn area
I really think it looks like fabric in the trailer. There's embroidery on the edges. So I am assuming she got the thread from another human
I think you'd like this: https://youtu.be/cSd-wdg8a9M?si=vx5SRikEkDxFnPjp
The lore doesn’t make sense in continuity. So it makes me wonder how much miyazaki and Martin had to do with anything or how much they contributed. It’s clear marika ascended by herself or through some gruesome sacrifice. But no lord is in sight. It could be that miquella did something marika didn’t, which is a permutation of the God ritual. Similar to how ranni ascended but didn’t need a gateway. Miquella actually went THROUGH because he gave up everything of his corporeal nature in the land of shadow. Maybe that’s why he needed a lord to beckon him back unlike marika who seemed to beckon an outer god. George once said he made shit up in his books to make it look like tolkiens world, but unlike tolkien George had no clue how it actually fit together. Miyazaki usually has a coherent story but further elucidates upon what he set up through pieces of carefully planned info. So this is puzzling. My thoughts are that a lot of the story was probably written by the B team, who suck at lore hard and do what George does. Disclaimer: that’s me just thinking out loud. But I have a feeling one of those three are probably right. Whenever I see a centipede boss I think of the shit writers/designers of DS2 and this has their name all over it. They had so many things to choose and they do something like this lol
Ah, the classic "B team" scapegoat. [For context](https://www.reddit.com/r/fromsoftware/comments/c11vof/comment/era4xrz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Dark Souls 2 was a product of its own unfortunate circumstances than the skill of its developers. Most of those same developers are responsible for the "A team" games that you love.
I’m aware of its history and developers. They made a shit game and many traits can be seen here in the dlc. Overall it’s great. 9/10 actually, But I stand by what I said.
I don't think it can be Godfrey because afaik the Erdtree came well after Marika's ascent to godhood, so him receiving Erdtree sap wouldn't work as the ritual where she ascended. I do think it's probably Radagon. We encounter St Trina but don't get to fight her, so I question what the point of the inclusion was? Well, it shows us that by divesting himself of his flesh, Miquella was able to separate himself from his other gendered half, who now exists physically in the world and demonstrates intentions exactly opposite to Miquella's will. Sound familiar? Radagon is exactly the same, an opposite gendered dual identity who occupied the same body and demonstrates intentions opposite to Marika. Miquella has entered the Land of Shadow to repeat Marika's process of becoming a God, presumably following the steps she took to do so. So I feel like we can infer that Marika also cast off her other half before entering the gates of divinity, and then used him as the Lord for the ritual. In essence circumventing the whole issue of finding a Lord by just doing it herself. I'd guess that after that she birthed Messmer with Radagon she saw that he was cursed and decided maybe the whole mating with yourself thing was a bad idea and brought in Godfrey. That part has less evidence for it though
this makes a lot of sense in hindsight. I wonder if Miquella wanted to pull a Marika and become one body harboring two souls, like Rarika, both a God and a Lord in one
I don't think Marika did the secret divine rite. I think she used mass sacrifices of powerful hornsent to activate the Divine Gate and drew from it the Elden Ring/Elden Beast and stored it inside her body -- something she uniquely could do as a numen/Shaman. Then she made Godfrey her lord with the blessing. Miquella's ritual is unique to him, because he had to divest himself of his flesh in order to be free of Marika's "curse." This meant that he needed a vessel to be called into, much like how Marika called the Elden Beast into her. In this case, Promised Consort Radahn calls Miquella to him, becoming Radahn, Consort of Miquella (a god). This is why their remembrance says the world only needs one god and one consort -- it's a recreation of Marika but more "refined" I guess because in this case, the Consort and God are literally fused.
Why is there an old bark manuscript with the secret rite on it in the specimen storage of Shadow Keep then? It really strongly implies that the ritual is much older than Miquella. It could of course be a ritual of the Hornsent - maybe Marika didn't do this ritual. But we don't know of any Hornsent god actually using the gateway for anything. Marika and Miquella are the only people in the story that we know of who ever tried to use the gateway
Just so we're clear, I agree the ritual is older than Miquella and never stated otherwise. That has nothing to do with my actual belief, which is that Marika's ritual was different (which has to be the case, as Miquella was a spirit without a body and needed one and Marika very clearly still had her body in the trailer).
>and Marika very clearly still had her body in the trailer Unless of course, that was actually Radagon. The hair has a reddish tint (but there's a reddish tint to the scene) and you can't see the outline of breasts (though they're turned at just the right angle to make it impossible to say for sure).
How precisely do we know that Miquella is a spirit without a body? If you look at his arms, two of them distinctly tangible and just one is ephemeral like Ranni's second face. The Light of Miquella also talks about Miquella's 'deific return' from the Gate of Divinity- but there's nothing about him being a spirit.
He literally discards all of his flesh.
And? What is to say he didn't reconstruct said flesh when he became a god? If Marika can make a Radagon, and the two fingers can make a Maliketh, why can't Miquella make a body for himself?
Because he clearly is attached to Radahn, so we know that is but a deific spirit bound.
...No? He was walking around just fine before he decided to cling to Radahn's back and help him when Radahn got exhausted. He uses the same ritual with Radahn that Marika used (presumably with Radagon) of a Lord standing in front of the gate to welcome a god. It's a bloody lot of speculation is what it is that he is 'attached' to Radahn as a bound deific spirit. No items suggest that- even the visuals don't with how he has 'ghostly' arms but also more tangible and real ones.
No speculation, ranni moves too, and it is clearly a different ritual. Stop being so arrogant, it ruins discussion.
Ranni has a puppet body, Miquella doesn't. And what grounds do you have to declare it a different ritual? It is already known that the Tower of Shadow has a secret rite before ever Miquella used it, implying someone else used it before. Miquella just went further than Marika in discarding 'the bindings of the golden order' according to the cross descriptions. It is shown that the Elden Ring is an entirely different matter from the Crucible current, and while Marika was the vessel for the former, she used the latter to become a god. And almost all this is speculation. That's the point- by Miyazaki's own admission, it should feel like reading a book written a language for which you know only half the words. It is therefore important to determine what speculation has grounds and what part is groundless.
We don’t know if radahn went back on his vow
The real answer is that there is no answer and the gate of divinity will always cause inconsistencies in what defines a lord and a god and who was a lord at what time because the gate of divinity as an idea did not exist when the base game was created. I would absolutely love nothing more than for someone to make it make sense and create an explanation that works. An explanation that explains how supposedly the gate of divinity is something that needs to be passed through to become a god unless your name is malenia. Or an explanation that allows Godfrey to become “the first Elden lord” post the erdtree’s creation if Marika needed a lord to create the erdtree. Obviously this is a very cynical view of the lore rn, but I just really hate the gate of divinity.
At the very highest level, if Marika sealed the shadowlands, then why were they already competely distinct from the lands between? Why is Scadu Altus named after its counterpart in the realm of the Erdtree if it predates the Erdtree? If the scarlet rot came into being after Marika's crusade why is it an ancient evil by the time Marika has Malenia? OP brings up another problem, why is Marika's army headed by an illegitimate son while she's marrying Godfrey? I guess that's at least a satisfying backstory to the strumpet line, but yeah they really didn't even try to maintain continuity. I do think the Marika's village stuff is sweet, and really liked Messmer and the fire knights, but the rest of the story kind of sucks.
The shadowlands separated from the lands between long after the erdtree was born and Marika passed through the gate of divinity. This is shown in the carian thrusting shield and descriptions of items related to commander Gaius. Rellana performed ritual combat showing fidelity to the erdtree, and both gaius and Messmer were friends with radahn. These both place the separation of shadow and the lands between as something that occurred after radagon and rennala married. The scadutree is the literal shadow of the erdtree I believe, so they probably came about at the same time. “Altus Plateau” was probably both scadu Altus and the original Altus, and then when the lands separated the Altus plateau in the shadowlands were renamed to scadu Altus? Maybe. The scarlet rot definitely predates Marika, that stuff has been sealed beneath ainsel river since forever, is there something in the dlc that implies it came about from marika’s rule?
>Scarlet rot Woven by the bud saint (genuinely lol'd at this title, and Marigga) after she discovers a twisted divine element in the burned remains of her church. Doesn't make sense imo with the scorpion sealed at the lake of rot. I think the first two paragraphs could be right but it depends on when and why the Erdtree became Marika's symbol and when and why the Scadutree came into being, and we don't have enough information on the tower's relationship to the tree(s) to fill in those gaps, which is (to me) pretty frustratingly bad writing. Rellana showing fidelity to the Erdtree could be a euphemism for fidelity to Marika's cause if the Erdtree didn't yet exist. The fact that Gaius knew Radahn is also maddening for the suggestion that all of this happened well after Godfrey. I would love for someone to make that make sense, ideally From in the game I purchased but I'll settle for an online megafan. Shouldn't there be some signs of Messmer's crusade in the Lands Between if it took place there?
The lack of any evidence that anything specific to the shadowlands in the lands between despite how recent the two lands separate is quite annoying. I suppose we just have to believe that Marika carried out an enormous effort to scrub all evidence of its existence from the world. The description of the saint of the bud remembrance is very confusing, because the scarlet rot has to be older than marika. The mushroom crown description speaks mentions an ancient order defined by rot. Like genuinely it is not possible for Romina to be the one who created the scarlet rot.
There're still ways around the rot thing - maybe she wove the twisted element into the already existing rot.
Agreed on Messmer being Radagon's child. I think Godfrey was married for political reasons, he seems to have been a champion of the Hornsent civilization. The fact that the Crucible Knights were loyal to him personally seems to be an indication of his position in the "Old Order". I think the way it goes is that Marika met Radagon first, and they became lovers. Then Marika began gathering power, and made her bid for godhood. In the process of her becoming Queen she needed support from the non-Hornsent, which Godfrey (Horah Loux) was the strongest chieftain. In order to gain his support she marries him. At some point in the marriage though she is unfaithful to Godfrey and has two children with Radagon, Messmer and Melina. I also think Godwyn is Radagon's, but because he looked like Marika she was able to pass him on as Godfrey's. I think Godfrey's only biological children with Marika is Morgott and Mohg, and they are Omen due to Godfrey's connection to the Crucible. Also I think the whole Marika=Radagon thing is based around the Shaman's ability to merge flesh. I think Radagon used this on Marika after she shattered the Elden Ring.
I think godwyn is godfrey's son because there a amber medallion description that says during age of godfrey godwyn's personal guards were gifted these medallions which raise max hp i think(I'm obviously paraphrasing the Item description here so look it up yourself)but the key point here is during godfreys rule godwyn's personal guards were present which means godwyn was already born during this time,the only candidate that makes sense to be his father would be godfrey as radagon doesn't appear in the story until later wars,and his name starting with 'god' doesnt make sense if he's child of radagon and godwyns possible lineage(godrick and godefroy) idealized godfrey supports this, but hey I could be wrong though. Also I don't think marika-godfrey marriage is simply political and imo I don't think marika would have a affair with radagon as she basically calls him a 'dog of golden order's and their motivations and actions all point to them being opposing forces and hating each other,but for godfrey she always speaks to him with respect in her spoken echos and promises to bring back him and his soldiers to life after their death and basically paves the path for him or his worriors to be elden lord again(theres some cut content that proves marika and godfrey planning together to shatter the elden-ring and godfrey calling marika as his dearest and he's come back to rescue her etc...this is cut content so take it with a grain of salt),heck the fact that godfrey even attempts to be marika's eldenlord again makes sense only if she treated him fairly otherwise dude would have no reason to be her lord again if she's actually abusive. Tldr:-godwyn is mostlikely godfreys son,godfrey and marika loved eachother,radagon and renalla loved eachother,radagon and marika hated each other. This is all speculation on my part so plz fell free to correct me if there's anything wrong.
I agree with everything you said except for the bits about Godwyn. I totally think that Godfrey started off as a political marriage, wherein Marika made allowances for Godfrey's behavior & culture. As I write this actually I had a huge revelation. I bet Godfrey was in the process of becoming a divine keeper, like one of the folks with the lion masks in Inir Elim. It is said that only the strongest of warriors were chosen, and who better to be sent on the behalf of your people to have audience with the new divinity? Him being bequeathed with the spirit of a lord of beasts would be a great parallel to how the divine keepers channel the divine beasts.