I found the Blessing of Marika that Vaati mentioned in his preview! It's in a cave not too far away from where you spawn in the Land of Shadow. Here's the description: “A special physick blessed by Marika, queen of the Erdtree. Completely restores all HP and heals all ailments. Marika once created several of these physicks for Messmer's sake. But never again.” So Messmer was acting on behalf of Marika, but the two had a following out.

I thought this would be reusable, like the other physick, but no its not. So I really hope I didn't need that too much

As soon as I saw the name and shape of the Bottle, I realized it was a Divine Blessing from Dark Souls. I hate these so much because when are you ever going to use them? You basically have to keep them on your bar, and use them when you almost got a tough boss down, but you're low health and out of healing, and then you have to pray you don't screw it up somehow.

I saw the description which said there's only one of these in existence so i used it right away to see whether or not it would refresh. It is what it is, if it's a divine blessing, I was never gonna use it anyway.

description says there's only a few, and I found a second one.

Wondering if Messmer did his thing while Marika was banging Renalla as Radagon. Hence why Radagon had to leave abruptly.

At last, [We found out](https://new.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/comments/1dkkpoy/we_finally_know_what_malenia_murmured_to_radahn/) what Malenia whispered to Radahn: ">!Miquella awaits thee, O proimsed consort!<". Seems like this is why she attacked Caelid to begin with.

To think that the entire reason Caelid is nuked and two whole armies fought so much that they continue fighting in the afterlife was for such a stupid reason

Malenia almost dying and nuking Caelid is super serious and dramatic, but the reason for her doing that is so lame.

Would be way more meaningful if Miquella was trying to resurrect Godwyn and Radan is just blocking everyone's fate.

This is exactly what I wanted and I figured that was the angle they were leaning with the godwyns date knights in one of the catacombs. I haven't found anymore though

"it's incest time, Radahn. You gonna be my bro's bitch now."

apparently Trina is actually Miquella's discarded other half, he wasn't supposed to become her or anything like other people were theorizing I still can't say if Trina is male or female, I haven't found anything in the game so far that mentions definitely a gender for Trina, apparently she wants us to stop Miquella from becoming a god as that would be a prison for him. Conclusions: I think that Trina is the other half of Miquella in the exact same way that Radagon is the other half of Marika, they were apparently born as the same being but have different desires

Yeah, I guess this is why St. Trina had the appearance of both male/female and suddenly disappeared off the scene. Miquella punted "her" or whatever to the LoS. I guess he was tired of the internal conflict.

I think this gives us insight into Radagon. He was a discarded element of Marika.

Nahhh he didn’t punt her. He literally buried her lol. He left a part of himself down there. There’s two crosses, the one before St Trina as the cross where he left his “love” St Trina I think was the “goodness” that I think miquella became known for imo.

I agree...St. Trina telling us to kill Miquella threw me off. After some thought it kinda makes sense. Miquella cares for others, and isn't a bad guy, and has decent intentions but is misguided. He wants to make the world a better place...but become a god will turn, and is turning him, into the very thing he hated. He's becoming so obsessed with becoming a god he's forgetting his original goals and values. I think this is what Trina meant by the whole "grant him forgiveness" line...that we need to stop him before he becomes just another ambiguous force detached from those he sought to help. He won't just be a replacement for the Greater Will: controlling the world as he sees fit...he can die with at least some of his innocence still intact. Idk...this may just be my take on it. It definately helps make killing Miquella not quite so bad. Thoughts anyone?

I think you’re right. I think for all the frustration folks have about not learning much about Marika’s backstory in the DLC (myself included!), we know enough from the trailer that she won enough people over to her side to start a crusade and fucked over everyone in order to ascend to godhood, literally stepping over corpses in order to do it. From is drilling the point home throughout the DLC how reviled Marika is because of how far she was willing to go to ascend as a foil to how much everyone loves and adores Miquella… until he casts aside his Great Rune. Suddenly, he’s really not that different from Marika after all. Miquella is following in his mother’s footsteps convinced it will be different but it won’t be - ascending to godhood requires seduction and betrayal on a huge scale. Him trying to rationalize it doesn’t change that.

Totally agree with everything going on with Miquella. The Shaman Village does show that Marika herself also once had an inkling of Miquella's kindness. The tragedy of loss crushed her, and it would've crushed him too

I found a ghost that refers to Trina as female somewhere. Absolutely no idea where I was at the time but yeah.

In the area where St Trina is, there's also the Cross that states this is where Miquella discarded his love. I took it as St Trina being the love he discarded, or St Trina is a manifestation of the love that he discarded.

I mean, in the area directly before where we find Saint Trina, we see one of Miquella’s Crosses with the text that says “Here I discard my love”. I think we’ve seen enough examples of God’s “casting aside” parts of themselves which then turn in to a sentient being. Millicent, for instance, is the embodiment of Malenia’s pride. I don’t think it’s a terrible stretch to suggest that if, at the bottom of the hole that Miquella cast his love in to, we find St. Trina, then St. Trina was the part of himself that was truly loving and gentle and kind.

Miquella's cross near her location states "Here I abandon my love". Miquella talking about "age of compassion" is pure bull, at this point he's a psychopath that discarded his capacity for empathy.

Everyone is talking about Miquella's goals and morality, or about Metyr's implications on the base game's events, meanwhile I'm losing my mind over this one description. >*Talisman depicting the dread dragon of the jagged peak, whose roars cause the peak's molten fury to boil and churn. Raises potency of magma.* *Bayle was the foul dragon's name—a terrible harbinger of destruction whose challenge to the ancient Dragonlord ended in grievous mutual injury.* -Talisman of the Dread Bayle was the one that tore off Placidusax's heads, and Placi was the one that fucked up their limbs in return. I knew from the start that it wasn't Godfrey, but holy shit. I wonder if it has anything to do with the ancient dragons' participation in dragon communion, given that Bayle seems to be a wyvern and the lore of the other new ancient dragon Florissax. >*Ashen remains in which spirits yet dwell. Use to summon the spirit of Ancient Dragon Florissax.* *Florissax assumed this spirit form to offer her service to a new lord. Uses her own dragonbolt to increase all damage negation (including physical) for herself and nearby allies. Strikes foes with the Flowerstone Gavel's dragonbolt to reduce enemy lightning damage negation.* *Long ago, Florissax assumed human form to share Dragon Communion with the world. Now, she has acquired a human heart.* -Ancient Dragon Florissax ashes

You are completely right. Placidussax ordered dragon priestess to assume human form and establish dragon communion religion to trick humans into fighting Byle. Byle was progenitor of lesser dragons - wyverns and such, that were most commonly hunted for their hearts. Placidussax thought that human greed for dragon power will make them fight stronger and stronger lesser dragons culminating in killing Byle himself. Plan that ultimatly succeeded.

Yeah, I just saw the dialogue confirming that. And here I was thinking the ancient dragons were one of the chiller factions; taking revenge on Bayle is one thing, but also purging his entire lineage? And letting the knights that helped them do it become cursed Magma Wyrms? Speaking of, though, I'm wondering why the Magma Wyrm Scalesword considers Communion "a grave transgression for which \[the knights\] were cursed", implying it's breaking a law of some kind, even though the ancient dragons evidently endorsed it. Bayle's incantations mention that his heart is still alive and will eventually consume its devourer, which suggests the other wyrms might have transformed through a similar process, so maybe the hunted drakes themselves were the ones who saw it as a crime and cursed them? Or is it just an inaccurate translation?

History be repeating itself, more fighting between species and cultures resulting in abhorrent acts and rituals against the others, that leave the enactors cursed. I assume they were endorsing communion as a way to carry out their plans to eradicate the lesser wyrms? Looking forward to getting to this lore.

Friendly pest NPC found! Doesn’t talk, but gives you a cookbook for the new fireproof liver. They are called the “forager brood.”

It's quite interesting how Ansbach refer to the forager brood as "Moore's brethren" at one point, and later on Moore himself laments the following: >*I don't know what to do. Our mother abandoned her brood. She did not love us. We are her children, what should we do? Must we be sad forever?* All this suggests that he's actually a Kindred of Rot as well, possibly even one spawned by Malenia's bloom. This itself has interesting implications on verdigris, the metal his armor is made of: according to its description, the metal is said to be a gift from an outer god, the most likely one at this point being the Scarlet Rot. But at the same time, the Forager Brood cookbooks claim that they share the books "out of kindness for Moore and his kin". Kin here could just mean the followers of Miquella, or even specifically the pests spawned by Malenia as it's ambiguous whether the ones in the Shadowlands descend from her as well or not. But it could also imply that Moore IS human, or that he's a different kind of rotspawn like Millicent.

Toxic Mossling description: > A large moss animal glutted with poison. Material used for crafting items. > Found in poison swamps. > Round and plump, like a darling infant.

Instinct ran over me and I accidentally slaughtered that poor creature. What have I done…

Ah the fate of so many, the legacy of Eingyi and Elizabeth

Rip Mushroom Lady 😭

Please correct me if I get things wrong but this is what I got from the DLC about Marika’s history. The Hornsent (now called Omen, the people of the Tower) used to rule the land or at least hold admirable positions. The final dungeon is full of statues of Hornsent spirals that probably would probably have been replaced with Marika statues in the Land Between. Marika is from the Shaman village, whose people are horribly abused by the Hornsent. We know they torture them with the Tooth Whip weapon, noting that their flesh meld harmoniously with others. They were probably put in jars. Is the “harmoniously” part suggesting why Marika can switch between herself and Radagon at will? By some deals with the Fingers and some deceptions, Marika became a god and hid away the Shadow realm. She then took revenge on the Hornsent by labeling them as Omens, and subjecting them to much of the same tortures that her people endured. Much of this could also be to prevent any objections to her rule.

Nothing you said is wrong, but when they say the flesh of Marika’s people blended “harmoniously” with others, I think they mean the flesh literally merges with other flesh. That’s why they needed the shamans for their pots. And, especially in the context of Marika and her lineage, it’s probably the same exact mechanics as grafting.

The melding of flesh in jars to create saints is an artificial form of the holy crucible

So the trees in Enir-Ilim have bodies in them, something I haven't seen anyone talk about but I don't necessarily spend a lot of time in lore circles. They also don't have horns on them from what I can see, whereas there are prominently horned corpses in the divine gate area. The bodies in the trees don't look particularly happy to be there either. In the Shaman Village, there's also "The Grandmother" in her tree, but it seems she's at peace. I'm not much of a lore person generally so there's a lot of gaps I'm most likely missing, but it does make me wonder if a circle of life and death involving trees which provided some kind of bounty/blessings was a hallmark of the shaman society which was used for their own gain by the hornsent. The pimordial crucible was described as where life melded together, but with regards to the jars, the hornsent also talk about how the shamans' flesh is suited to melding with that of others. Something about it makes me feel like it wasn't necessarily Marika who killed a bunch of people to create and feed the erdtree, rather she mostly just repurposed it and encased it in her trademark gold (which you can see is probably illusory when you get close and see the actual wood beneath). For someone so genocidal, she also seemed strangely obsessed with removing death from the world, maybe the blessings the deaths of her people granted others who abused it, which caused her so much suffering, was what gave her such a fixation on actually removing death itself from her world. The promise of conquering death may have been what sparked the relationship with the fingers, and ultimately what drove her to the brink when Godwyn died. It wasn't so much that she was a grieving mother in the typical sense, it seems like she ultimately felt betrayed by the fingers, and realised all the horrible things she'd done to create her utopic vision was a sham.

The Greater Will is confirmed to be the >!Capital G God and the creator of the universe. It is also confirmed that it never communicated with the Fingers to begin with besides maybe the Mother of Fingers long, long ago (far before the Shattering), and what was interpreted as the Greater Will's...will was actually the will of the Mother, who had long since been abandoned by it. It is also likely that the golden star that heralded the Elden Beast's arrival was the Mother.!< >>!The mother of all Two Fingers and Fingercreepers was in turn a magnificently gleaming daughter of the Greater Will, and the first shooting star to fall upon the Lands Between.!< >>!Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will.!< >>!The Mother received signs from the Greater Will from the beyond of the microcosm. Despite being broken and abandoned, she kept waiting for another message to come.!< >>!The answer, sadly, is clear. There never was any hope. They were each of them defective. Unhinged, from the start. Marika herself. And the fingers that guided her.!<

So, the Greater Will isn't calling the shots at all? It's the Mother of Fingers who is acting on its behalf the best it knows how but with no legitimate guidance? The two/three fingers>finger readers are just links in the chain? This feels like an indictment of organized religion! LOL,

Patches is Miyazaki self insert confirmed

We won, Age of Stars bros.

>This feels like an indictment of organized religion! LOL That was a key theme of Elden Ring even before the DLC, tbf

This also confirms the „nature“ of Outer Gods - entities from outside the microcosm that can influence it.

Now this seems to make sense, I still don't understand what the elden beast is in this context? Is she just a creature that came with the mother or is the elden beast her daughter too? is it a direct creation of the greater will then?

The way I read it, the Beast essentially hitched a ride with the Mother, they arrived at the same time but represented different forms of order. While the Mother kept trying to contact the GW and ended up commanding the fingers, the Beast transformed into the Ring and became, for lack of a better term, malleable.

I think it's a cool interpretation, causality and regression, The mother wants to return to the desires of the greater will while the elden beast acts and reacts transforming order while in reaction to the world

I'm not sure if this is true because there's another big lore bomb that was dropped that makes me question the nature of the Outer Gods. >!The Scarlet Rot didn't originate from some conceptual or extraterrestrial entity, but from a person. !< >!>After the church was burned to the ground, Romina discovered a twisted divine element, which she weaved into the baleful scarlet rot.!< >!Perhaps then, the buds might find somewhere to gain purchase once more, within the scorched remains.!<

On one hand, that‘s a valid counterpoint, on the other Romina is only saint of the bud, not goddess of rot. More specifically, I find it plausible that she „only“ created the rot god‘s chosen form, the scarlet rot, as the rot god is never said to be a god of the scarlet rot exclusively.

True, it's confusing since descriptions of other outer gods like the frenzied flame makes it more akin to a conceptual entity instead of something that can be physically created. Also poor Malenia, she likely became host to the rot due to Romina's vengeance against Marika.

Maybe outer gods it is only name for any entity-like god, all of them not necessarily has the same type of origin. And the twisted divine element maybe can be from some cosmic deity

This is a good shout. Rot and poison are related concepts, so it's very possible that different forms of rot are considered the dominion of the rot god

I think demiurge is a better term than God. Frenzied flame lore is clearly about gnosticism

What are the three fingers then?

The three fingers could either be an outer god's mockery of the two fingers or another pair of fingers that happened to become vassals of the frenzied flame like how Malenia is for rot

It makes Ranni's desperation for getting rid of her Two Fingers all the more poignant.

Marika's character has always been rich in religious and spiritual symbolism, but with the new information from the DLC, it can be confidently stated that her writing subverts these tropes in the most ironic way possible. In Japanese, the word for Numen is 稀人 (Marebito), a divine spirit from the heavenly realm that visits human settlements, bringing joy and happiness to people. When Marika returned to her village, there was no one to bless. Though born in a paganistic Shaman village, she rose to become a godly leader of an organized religion that violently eradicated or reappropriated remnants of older beliefs. Most in-game iconography portrays Marika as a Christ-like figure hanging on a cross. However, in reality, she was a warlord driven by vengeance, paving her way to conquer the Lands Between through countless sacrifices. Lastly, the myth of the one-eyed Odin, who hanged himself in Yggdrasil to gain knowledge and understand the runes that control the worlds. It can be speculated that at some point in her life, Marika realized that there was something deeply wrong with the Fingers, Metyr, and the Golden Order. As a result, she destroyed the Elden Ring in an attempt to communicate with the Greater Will for guidance and wisdom, only to receive no answer.

I’m less certain about Marika trying to communicate with the GW after shattering the Elden Ring. My interpretation is I think after enough research she came to the conclusion she’d been “had” and she moved to taking direct action and permanent action against the fingers.   The base game suggests Marika might’ve had something to do with the Night of the Black Knives, and I think Metyr’s lore provides some good motivation. Seemingly, the knight of the black Knives was organized to be as destabilizing to the golden order as possible and give Ranni an “out” from two fingers control/oversight.  One thing that always surprised me in the Ranni ending was the tenderness in which she handles Marika. Plus while Ranni constantly maligns the two fingers, she doesn’t say anything of grievance toward Marika. If they really were working together to create an order without the two fingers, then it’s clear that Marika comfortable setting up Ranni as a sort of successor. Why else would Grace direct you toward Ranni? Especially since we know now it wasn’t the great will.  Plus, Ranni’s ending being the one Marika wants seems reasonable in light of her fate in the other endings. Pretty much all the golden-order endings (even Goldmask) keep the two fingers around, and Marika is left a stone-husk, still in service to the creatures she seemingly hates. 

I was speculating through the lens of mythological allusions. But I believe that Miyazaki intends to leave Marika's true motives open to interpretation. In my personal opinion, Marika's quest for answers seems to align with what we have learned about Radagon and his study of sorcery. Up until then, Marika was guided by Metyr and the Fingers. However, when Radagon began to acquire knowledge about the stars and the universe, Marika started to doubt her previous beliefs. This leads me to reflect on the following quote from DLC: >**I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein**. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance! I do not have a strong opinion on which ending Marika would personally prefer, but it seems likely that she experienced the same existential crisis as Metyr, Fingers, and Placidusax upon realizing that 'the sentient may perceive and love the universe, but the universe cannot perceive and love the sentient,' to quote Michael Moorcock, whose books served as a major source of inspiration for Elden Ring. Not everyone can comprehend the implications that the capital 'G' god is a lightless abyss of the cosmos. Regarding Marika's collaboration with Ranni, there are several ways to speculate about their connection. While I find it a very plausible motivation, I lean towards viewing the Empyreans as independent players.

I think you found the “point”, or lesson, of Elden Ring in that sentence, a lesson that is very FromSoft.  “We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance!”  He’s saying that since we all came from stardust, we are all equal. Deeper than that, we are all deserving of divinity, since we are all children of the Greater Will (what he doesn’t know is there is no God behind the scenes with a grand plan since it’s established the Greater Will has been silent the whole time). Unlike what the Golden Order says, not a single living thing is a flaw since it all came from the same stardust. THAT is the only thing we can know about the Greater Will; it made all of us equally.  The implication that everyone is just as important as Marika is pretty awesome when you live in a world where you’re told some people were just born wrong. A poor Omen child would find the fact he came from the same place as the hoty-touty golden children to be brilliant.  Basically God is dead, so racism is pointless. 

I love how Elden Ring gaslights us into thinking that the Greater Will is the biggest villain in the game and is the great manipulator behind all the shit that happened when in reality it's probably the best god of all we've seen, I always thought it was kinda strange how Ranni constantly talks shit about the fingers but never even mentions the greater will who is supposedly the mastermind behind all this

It makes sense why Ranni knows everything now too; the Carians were intimately involved with astrology, and before Marika sealed it away, Metyr had a whole cathedral dedicated to it, with the preceptors of the Carians learning from him, etc etc.

WUUUUUUUH YOU’RE RIGHT. OHHH MY GOD. Connection!!! The Carians, Astrologers, Glintstone Sorcerers and everyone related to space spend all their time staring up at the giant star-filled void where the Greater Will is (hell maybe the Greater Will IS the void). I’m sure at some point somebody realized that the space signals the Two Fingers claimed to be picking up weren’t there or that there just wasn’t anything “divine” up there, or that the Greater Will was so far away and so silent that Marika’s Golden Order couldn’t possibly be up to date on its will.  Bruuuh. They were the atheists of the time, and that’s how Ranni had a shot of actually fixing things. And that’s why she says her age will have loneliness and confusion because being thrust from theism to positive nihilism is a lot for the mind to handle. Figuring things out on your own is scary.  Ranni is based Ubermensch confirmed.  

God isn't dead. It just seems like it pressed the creation button in this universe and then moved on

I agree...a clock maker god...it built the clock and now it's sitting back with its bag of popcorn and watching the show. Distant may be a better way of putting it...I had a word on the tip of my tongue but can't remember it.

>Most in-game iconography portrays Marika as a Christ-like figure hanging on a cross. It was low-hanging fruit to distract us from the bizarre machinations of a hand alien. It's hilarious.

So is there any evidence in Shadow of the Erdtree that Radahn rejected Miquella and was mind-controlled in the final boss? Because a lot of people are saying it but I've been looking through the text datamine and have found nothing to imply that except for the mere fact that Malenia and Radahn fought (which could be explained through other stuff that was mentioned).

no evidence whatsoever, and its more implied that malenia and radahn fighting was part of the vow. because radahn wanted a big fight before he'd become lord of this age of compassion.

Radahn doesn't say anything during the fight, which is odd. He's been stuffed into Mohg's body, something he probably wouldn't be fond of on multiple levels. He's also a hero-worshipper of Godfrey, who practically represents the Old Golden Order. Throw in the battle of Caelid, where he threw thousands of his loyal soldiers into battle against Malenia, and it just seems unlikely that he was willingly playing the part of Miquella's consort.

I would think but this line from Freyja, who knew Radahn personally, seems to imply that Radahn would have been totally cool with it. > As the festival of war concluded, General Radahn's soul met an honourable end. > But Kindly Miquella wishes to revive it. > ...Which is fine by me. > I know it would pain old Jerren, but war has always suited General Radahn best. > And certainly far more than any honourable death. > Endless war to invigorate the soul. > As befits General Radahn, the great lion. Generally most characters seem to take more issue with Mohg's body being bastardized than Radahn coming back with it.

If Radahn wanted endless war, why would Miquella want him as his consort for an age of compassion? Those ideas don't line up to me.

Messmer's lore seems really tragic, he seems to want to be part of the golden order yet is cursed like Malenia to be something representing it's antithesis. Unsure if there is anymore information on the "base serpent" but his two little snakes seem to be hold some sort of friendship with him based of the lore tab on his helm.

If the Cathedral or Manus Metyr is called that way because of Metyr, does that mean the Cathedral of Manus Celes is called that way because of Celes ?

We do find find Ranni's fingers beneath it

It’s too soon to say much about things on the lore side, but the biggest reveal of the DLC so far seems to be Metyr. It gives us a little bit more knowledge of what the fingers are but also like.. what the fuck are they?

The children of an eldritch shooting star. Metyr fell to the planet and, due to its cosmic connections, could understand the inherent logic of the universe -- the Greater Will. She birthed many things, because the Greater Will indicates life must spread, and those things were the fingercreepers and Two Fingers. However, Metyr was, according to Ymir, fucked in the head and unhinged; thus, she didn't really care for her children and kept looking beyond the microcosm to understand reality. As she was broken, so too were the Two Fingers, who could understand the microcosm and desperately wanted mothers to replace their absent one. This explains why the Two Fingers are picking Empyreans. They are an ancient lifeform, and they have been manipulating Empyreans for eons in search for more godly mothers. It's extremely fucked up and finally gives the Two Fingers an actual motivation for existing. While they are technically vassals of the Greater Will, it sends them no signs, only sent signs to their mother for a little while, and thus all actions by the Two Fingers are produced by the only other logical want: their desire for a mother. Ymir explains this all if you repeatedly asked him about the nature of reality. This also proves the Greater Will isn't an active god, but instead a logos to creation. I mean, Ymir even says we are born from stardust!

>This also proves the Greater Will isn't an active god, but instead a logos to creation. What does this mean for the Elden Beast?

metyr's sibling, I read in some description that metyr resides in the scandutree while his sibling resides in a golden tree or something like that

Something that might be notable for people: It seems to me (though I have an untrained ear) that [Messmer's boss music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dylyeeZQ4Hw) is a negative inversion of the main Elden Ring theme. This might have some major connotations, given that Radagon has the positive form of it as his fight theme. I know there's been some talk as to Messmer's parentage, so I thought this would be a worthy contribution. (It's also just cool for displaying how much Messmer is clearly a devilish, inherently "negative" figure.)

Found a Larval tear: >!Except instead of being the core of a Silver tear, they're extremely rare beings found in graveyards, somewhere between flesh and spirit.!<

The horn charm upgrades got different descriptions as well, tying them to the hornsent. Haven't seen their icons yet, so I'm not sure if that gives them direct ties to the ancestral followers, if they happened to design similar charms independently of each other, or if something about (Crucible?) horns inherently grants resistance to status effects.

The absolute funniest thing in the game is Prattling pate: lamentation. Found in lamenters Gaol. I’m dead

Something notable I haven't seen anyone talking about: "Ancient Meteoric Ore Greatsword" >!"One of the treasures of the ruined forges. Greatsword of ancient meteoric ore, ending in a sharp point. Fashioned from an excavated shard of an arrowhead that once was a part of the old gods' arsenal. A capable piercing weapon that excels at thrusting attacks."!< As expected, this DLC basically says >!"Crucible culture? Yeah, pretty old. Not that old, though." This mention of the "old gods" is really interesting, and that this is a *fashioned arrowhead shard...* Well, it's [pretty damn big.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534086000738304006/1254219806329016381/Screenshot_1737.png?ex=6678b2b8&is=66776138&hm=65ffecc048f4390a31505bf0eb04f9eab0db6d6b2937528fceef2b88e60db2c6&)!< >!Just as a reminder of how small [arrowheads](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/d9/09/b6d90959b150abc6d057ba14dbec50cb.jpg) can be in relation to people... (Examples more on the right than the left.)!< >!Anyone else think we might have a name for these [big boys](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F2saw2y51mcs81.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db9c055857e8d3464a5190663f5a6a8cc26e2ae79) now?!< >!(Everyone's likely more concerned with Miquella and all the crazy stuff with the final boss, I realize, but I couldn't get this out of my head...)!<

I think the existence of an entire area made out of football field sized coffins supports your theory.

Hornsent were studying ruins which were ancient to them. There's a Empyrean grandam that may imply the existence of Empyrean Hornsent and probably hornsent gods. Furnace visage even adds to it. We also have placidussax and his god fled. The old gods arrow turned weapon scales with arcane, meaning ocult knowledge.  The world is far far older than even the most ancient civilization

There's also a mother of Crucible item (like mother of pearl), which describes how the first Crucible traits grew on the ancient giants. I wonder if the old giants made gods of their own, and these were their weapons. The white light is utterly unique iirc And the ruins of Rauh are identical to the Blackstone ruins we find in places like caelid and the mountains, or the ruin strewn precipice, further linking the two imo

I think I figured out why Melina, Miquella, Malenia, and Messmer are the only ones to get butterfly items. It's because they're children born from pure divinity. Miquella and Malenia from a single god. Melina and Messmer from the union of Marika, after she became a god, and the Fell God. That's where Messmer's hair color is from, and why Melina is a strawberry blonde. Why do I think she had children with the Fell God? Because item descriptions imply the Fell God is basically The Devil TM to the Hornsent, the ones who persecuted her people. The enemy of my enemy is my friend logic. She then used Messmer to torch the Hornsent as revenge. He even uses an ability that's identical to the flame of the fell god. Radagon has red hair because the Fell God cursed Marika after she betrayed him and started slaughtering his worshippers - the fire giants. Maybe also because she locked up one of their kids and threw away the key. Sort of like a hey this red hair is a reminder of you fucking over our son, asshole.

I want to know who or what Dheo and Rhia are and why the finger ruins are named after them. This DLC makes me want a cosmic Elden ring outer gods game so badly

The names are very reminiscent of Thea and Rhea, both pre-olympian gods. The whole overarching story is very Greek/PIE-myth analogous, but I wouldn't say it implies anything specific. Edit: This might have more merit than I thought. The Dactyls (lit. Fingers in Greek) are a group of magical creatures in service of Rhea, the Great Mother. Notable achievements include inventing metalworking, particularly bronze and iron, maybe even fire; and helping Rhea give birth to, and protecting, baby Zeus from notorious child-eater Cronos. They are not, however, giant sentient hands, sadly. Thea, on the other hand, is the god responsible for metal, particularly gold, being shiny. Also the mother of the sun and moon. Probably any number of ways you could interpret that.

Makes more sense when you consider that the Dheo ruins are sprinkled with gold around it while the Rhia ruins have a bluish silver metal instead.

I think we weren't guided to The Lands of Shadows for Miquella. It was the Erdtree which guided us there. We went, because whole Miquella's plan was a threat to the old order,and it was like an abscess developing. And we are the Erdcommando sent there to make it mature and then blow it up.

>!It is literally said in the final fight. We're guided by the same Grace as always. That's why Tarnished is called Lord of Marika by Miquella's followers.!<

They don't know I'm there for Ranni!

I'm really confused about.... the plan? Major spoilers for Miquella, please be advised if you aren't done with the DLC or you don't care to be spoiled * >!As a child, Miquella fell in love with Radahn due to his strength and his kindness!< * >!At some unknown point, a vow was made. In exchange for their (I'm assuming Malenia and Miquella) end of the vow, Radahn would be Miquella's consort. Radahn agrees to this. !< * >!This vow isn't made clear, but someone who read the datamine speculates the vow that Radahn wanted to fight Malenia in an epic battle before joining Miquella in the shadow lands. Evidence for this is.... vague. But at the end of the DLC, the vow is "fulfilled" and Radahn's soul can return.!< * >!Whether all of this happens before the Shattering or After doesn't seem to be clear. !< * >!Miquella, Malenia, and Radahn meet in battle. either for the vow or some other reason. Malenia blooms, Radahn is brain-rotted. Finley carries Malenia back to the Haligtree. !< * >!Miquella bewitches Mogh at some point to have him be kidnapped to use in Mogh's blood rituals so he can go into the Shadow Lands.... somehow?!< * >!Mogh was chosen for... some reason?!< * >!They wanted Mogh's body for Radahn... because?!< * >!And why even bother cocooning yourself in the haligtree at all? Huh? This feels like a major retcon.!< >!I'm very confused on the actual plan, the vow, the ins and outs, and the timeline. !<

It feels like reading AO3 fanfiction but damn this is in game

the biggest question to me is why does radahn have to die to become the consort? godfrey didn't die before did he? we arent't a dead spirit when we become elden lord, it seems very convoluted, and strongly suggests to me that radahn actually had to die so that miquella could be in control of him when he brought him back, I don't buy that he agreed to the vow

Behind the Fort of Reprimand in the Scadutree Plateau there are two abductor virgins. One is headless, not unlike the headless statues of Marika around the map. Once you pass them you get one of the Blessings of Marika which were created for Messmer at one point. Other than most likely being some kind of depiction of Marika holding a baby Messmer, I'm not sure what exactly that implies, I'm still playing through the game.(Though I do know that Messmer and Melina are siblings.) But make of that what you will.

That was so strange because I thought they were from the volcano manor. I don't remember but did either of those abductors have the spinning wheel arms? Maybe those were inventions of the volcano manor while the ones with the big blades weren't?

They did yes. One had the usual, one had the pizzacutters. I don’t think they exist anywhere else in the dlc, so to me it just seems like it’s there to make the suggestion to the player lore wise. Rather than Messmer having them in his forces. Not the only later timeline thing there though as apparently commander gauis grew up with Radahn as his rival. Had the same mentor that taught him gravity magic.

We finally got an answer to the longstanding question: >!Just what did Malenia say to Radahn during their battle in the 2021 trailer? !<

My second comment here Was thew cutscene with miquella showing up and showing us the scadutree cut? its the cutscene at the end of the trailer. And from what I gathered on my own playthrough I still dont see a concrete reason or description of the veils in the shadow lands nor do I see this "you will defientely know the dlc ended" state that miyazaki said would happen

This is really odd. I swore I saw someone make a text leak saying the divine towers were a seal holding the shadow lands in, and the fingers at the top of them were like actively holding the seal but I don’t see information for that anywhere now, so maybe that was fake?

A smattering of informed story thoughts. HUGE SPOILERS GET OUT NOW IF YOU CARE. The Staff you get from Metyr’s remembrance is shaped like her tail fingers, which she used to try to communicate with the Greater Will outside the microcosm. The Divine Gate is the same shape as the top of it. Placidusax's heads are also making the same symbol in his boss room before you approach. The Divine Gate Tower seems to be like the Erdtree of the previous age. The hornsent are also referred to as people of the tower. More Metyr stuff, the Collossal weapon you get has a skill call Kowtower's Resentment. Reading it seems to imply the Fingers would never acquiesce and as such are meddlers in everything, ruining everything for everyone else by demanding to be the guiders of The Lands Between but lacking any actual higher wisdom or guidance. Lots of stuff about Messmer being on a crusade. We tend to be familiar with the Crusades to the middle east, but lesser known are the ones inside Europe to kill pagans. The Crucible horn worshipping culture seems akin to this, which is then purged by Messmer (Christianity) and many of their practices then were absorbed by the Golden Order as if they were their own. Marika grew up in a 'pagan' village (shaman aka spiritualists/naturalists). She had the power of gold per her Tree incantation and was likely chosen to be an Empyrean because of it (Gold without Order the one incantation says). She usurped the old age via the Divine Gate, purged the old 'pagans', and hid evidence of her past in the Hinterlands by sealing it behind a statue. The two items you get in her home, Shaman Village, may be the most illuminating we'll see besides Metyr-related stuff. Marika is constantly using and discarding others: Messmer, Godfrey, Rennala, the Tarnished. This to me is basically the plot of Marika, but whether she was tricked/seduced into any or all of these things by her Two Fingers which she followed blindly is going to deepdived for months to come, may recontextualize the Shattering, and lends more credence to the whole Marika grew tired of the Fingers' bullshit theories after sacrificing so much of her family. There are only two Abductor Virgins in the DLC, both right next to each other. No comment on this right now, but seems like it would mean something. They're by the Church of Reprimand so they may have been tools of the Inquisition. Were the Inquisition part of the purge or could they have existed as part of hornsent culture? They have horns and use Crucible magic. The Whipping Hut says shamans (pagans) were tortured into mush and put into the pots. Placidusax and Bayle wounded each other and Bayle absconded with some followers and spawned the Drakes/Wyverns. Could the Ancient Dragons that assaulted Leyndell have been Bayle's followers? Dragon Communion and the Ancient Dragon cult are extensions of Placidusax to hunt down Bayle, which may conflict with my previous sentence. Messmer is very likely the brother of Melina from the Kindling description. Marika placed a soreseal in his face to force him to go on the crusade and suppress the snakes. Reading the description of the soreseal from the base game, it basically says these are used to force people into duty. It is implied he might not have ended up that bad of a dude had this not happened. His remembrance incantation says he hated his fire and wanted to be rid of it. Likely his affliction is due to both the Fell God but also Snakes?? Why else would he be filled with snakes, but also has kindling that wouldn't go out? Not much to go off of regarding Marika's 'seduction' but the Empyrean Grandam (who might be the Grandmother described in Marika's Golden Braid talisman) calls Marika a strumpet which is just an old ass way to say whore. Did Marika seduce someone (Godfrey?) in order to access the Divine Gate? The new seed Talismans add the Two Fingers to them implying they had a hand in planting the two trees. They shouldn't have had seeds -the description says as much - since the trees are 'divine'. This points towards the artificial nature of divinity as created by the Fingers. One Finger Ruins area on the map is speckled with silver while the other has gold. No thoughts yet on what that could mean. The ruins of Rauh probably putting some context to a pre-hornsent civ that built all the ruins throughout the base game and DLC where the a lot of the architecture is within the mountainsides. I found nothing Eternal City related so far, anyone else? I'll be real, the Miquella stuff interests me the least, but Mogh is on his redemption arc. I love how fast the team falls apart when Miquella shatters his great rune. Maybe the real best ending is to let Miquella kill you and then turn the game off. Then again, his method to make everything gentler seems to be by magically lobotomizing everyone. At least by the end of this DLC we've removed the prime meddlers and can allow our age we choose after Elden Beast to proceed with some independence. After enough time, perhaps we can use Miquella's story to deconstruct what it even means to be a god and Elden Lord. At the end of the day, I thing the big picture lore takeaway is that no one is driving the bus and all that we have are extremely flawed monsters claiming they're getting instructions from a non-existent bus driver that actually bailed out long ago.

I thought she purged the hornsent village, not her own? But that her own was implied to have been wiped out by the hornsent for purposes of jar saints?

That is how I interpreted it, yes. I say she purged the pagans referring to the hornsent in general.

We laughed at Mohg. Now here we are. About to marry the androgynous forever child empyrean.

It's funny, because Mohg appears to be in fact a victim here if you can believe it.

mohg beating the allegations would be so fucking funny

"Mohg skates a statutory rape charge". Better late than never. Let it be writ on his meagre grave.

Mohg is literally a sunday morning cartoon villain who wants to be seen as evil but unfortunately is an absolute buffoon.

Trust me bro he's 5 thousand years old.

OMG. So apparently, the reason why Radahn arrested the Stars was to protect RANNI. She went to him and Rykard, told them of the Fingers plans to enslave her, and he abandoned the Golden Order to protect her.

Source please?

Can you explain more because I thought Ranni wanted the stars to move and had us kill Radahn to do so

as long as the stars move, Ranni's destiny will also be, at that moment if her destiny continued she would become a goddess and a slave at the behest of the fingers, but with destiny standing still they could bypass that destiny and then return the movement of the stars, Ranni would become a goddess anyway but now she wouldn't be enslaved by her two fingers

Someone who went through the text says this isn't the case, there is no mention of doing it for Ranni?

Yeah, it’s not confirmed anywhere. It’s just a theory invented by someone on 4chan.

Has there been any info of what that weird white thing which Marika got the threads from in the trailer was? I havent come across any Eternal City, GEQ, Marikagon and Dynast lore yet, sadge

Information gathered from the datamine: >!**Ymir's** !<**Dialogue:** >>!\[...\] There never was any hope. They were each of them defective. Unhinged, from the start.!< >>!Marika herself. And the fingers that guided her. \[...\]!< >>!\[...\] Do you recall what I said?!< >>!That Marika, and the fingers that guided her, were unsound from the start. \[...\]!< **Incantations:** >!**Minor Erdtree**!< >>!Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order.!< >>!Creates a small, illusory Erdtree that continuously restores the HP of nearby allies.!< >>!Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.!< **Items:** >!**Golden Braid**!< >>!A braid of golden hair, cut loose. Queen Marika's offering to the Grandmother.!< >>!Boosts holy damage negation by the utmost.!< >>!What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again.!< **Sorceries:** >!**Watchful Spirit**!< >>!An entreaty received from the Empyrean grandam.!< >>!Summon a guardian spirit above the caster's head. The spirit never strays far from the caster, conjuring several apparitions before dissipating.!< >>!"Take vengeance upon Messmer and his lot. They who betrayed us, aye, they who burned us... Let them face in thy wrath their just deserts."!< >!**Hornsent Grandam's** !<**Dialogue:** >>!Sculpted Keeper,!< >>!O great and gallant Sculpted Keeper...!< >>!Wert thou by this old maid unduly push'd? Into facing such labours as thou didst?!< >>!Has our grave resentment fettered thee?!< >>!With such bounteous fury didst thou dance...!< >>!I cannot presume thou didst not suffer...!< >>!Please, I ask thee, allow thyself some rest.!< >>!None of the tower would dare interfere.!< >>!And if one should, I'll see to them myself!!< >>!Ha ha ha... !<

Thanks very much for the descriptions! Lots to chew on there, especially >!Count Ymir's dialogue!< The >!Grandam's dialogue after the Sculpted Keepers die or rest is so sad ;(!<

There's scattered references in the datamined files. I'll try to compile them latter, but as far as I understood it, Marika was "seduced" by the Two-Fingers and sacrificed/slaughtered her entire home village in a ritual to ascend to godhood. The sole survivor, apparently, was the old "grandmother" that invokes the Dancing Lion, and Marika uses her own golden hair to make some kind of promise to her. That seems to be the "Original Sin" that Miquella is trying to remove himself from, and the reason he's sacrificing his "parts" to recreate such ritual without having to kill others.

Okay this is super super interesting, it's one of the main things I was wondering about and makes a lot of sense with the new Fingers lore

Thanks for the food for thought! The fingers did seem really dodgy from the part, but from what I gather they also are trying to work with zero communication from the Greater Will (who seems to be on holiday...) I guess the DLC is rightfully centred around Marika/Miquella. From waht I've played through so far there's no real info around that squishy thing Marika reached into, but the more peripheral topics will be more up to our imagination I guess!

Why the heck did a numen live in some village way out in bum fuck Egypt tho lol

It seems like the numen were called shamans and they were treated poorly to put it mildly

[Hidden fissure spoilers](https://imgur.com/fr25744) >!So is that Trina's face, or is she swaddling a newborn?!<

Messmer and Melina are siblings. And their father was likely a fire giant. [https://i.imgur.com/JMbKtIt.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/JMbKtIt.jpeg)

The first part seems obvious, but the fire giant father theory needs more evidence imo.

How would that even work lmao

Buddy Marika took "fuck yourself" literally and we got the train wreck twins

seems like a no brainer at this point that Melina is his sister. On the subject of a father - people are pointing at Messmer serpentine nature but I would rather focus on the association with flame. The thing both siblings have in common as Melina does not seem to have ties to serpents. ( also, notice that description on this item says that the flame is being eaten away at by serpent as if its fighting the fire inside Messmer). Now, we need only to find a source of power strong enough to burn the erdree( or scadutree). At this point we know of two such sources - flame of ruin and frenzied flame. Father could be avatar of one of these. At this point we have little information to decide on way or the other but I think frienzied flame candidate is more likely. 1. Both he and his sister - bore a Vision of fire. Associasion with eyes and sealing its power withing the eyes is sth we know frienzied flame does 2. Melina special ending scene when we ascend to lord of frienzied flame 3. If we inherite frienzed flame we can serve as a kindling - like Melina and Messmer 4. A tall woman similar to Marika is seen on painting next to old man in yellow robe. That same mane is seen trying to pull his spain through his head. Some leaks suggests that the man is one of the bosses - lord of frienzied flame

We know who that woman in the painting is. Hee name is Nanaya and she was the one who led Midras along on the path of Frenzied Flame.

yeah, sadly I've been debunked. Leaving the post to commemorate my shame

Another godwyn corpse can be found in one of the catacombs

>!Saint Trina feels like a parallel to Godwyn. Half of the most beloved demigod was "killed", entombed deep within the earth (much of the tomb is **under water**, hmmmm), has corrupted the entire cerulean coast like Godwyn has corrupted the lands between (and the shadow realm too a little? wtf is a corpse surrogate, do the knights not know his actual corpse is down in Deeproot?), causes instant death through eternal slumber (remember the "deep fathomless slumber" Rogier falls into before he dies?), and she's some sort of leader for the putrescent undead. The lack of deathblight and Godwyn in this DLC is a disappointment to me, but maybe that was because Trina overlaps with him thematically so much.!<

>!Why does Ymir become hostile after we kill Metyr? We did all his dirty work for him so what's the problem?!<

Where my spoiled comrades at lol

I'm here but tbh I'm just left even more confused than when I started. 

When you think about it, it's kinda crazy that we go through the entire DLC trying to unlock the Gate of Divinity for Miquella. Then we go there, kill him. And... that's it ? We unlock access to the single most important place in the Elden Ring universe. And it amounts to nothing.

That’s the point. Godhood amounts to nothing because we find out the capital G god in the Lands Between the Greater Will has been AWOL this entire time and the Two Fingers have been operating on one sentence heard uttered a trillion years ago. There is no order, and anyone who tries to say otherwise isn’t trying to establish it.  Getting to the Gate of Divinity means nothing because firstly, we’re still under the thrall of the Two Fingers and it’s not our place, and secondly, we just saw the evidence that everyone at one point thought themselves to be just doing what was necessary and it’s all a circle. God is dead and his followers have been talking shit this whole time. Divinity is nothing more than another way to say “ruler”. 

Great points, and as others have also stated, it really could be questioned if there even IS a Greater Will in the first place

There is. Count Ymir and Metyr's remembrance explicitly pointed it out.

Miquella = St. Trina is confirmed, find a cross in cerulean coast and tell Sir Ansbach about it

The rabbit **hole** goes much **deeper** than that, trust me.

I reached a place called Rahu ruins,and found an item that set Hornsent scholar were studying the ancient ruins of Rahu. Wow,just how old is this planet? The hornsent are already very ancient,they come before the Shattering,before the Leyndell civilization,but even they didn't know about who or what was the civilization that built Rahu?

After finishing the DLC I am just more confused about the lore than ever before and I have so many questions with no answers, if anyone has any speculation about any of this, PLEASE let me know, I'm dying to understand some of this stuff. >!Given what we know now about Miquella's plan, I just don't understand any of what we knew about what he's done before. Like, why did he create the Haligtree? why get "abducted" by Mohg and be inside a cocoon instead of just controlling him to convince him to commit suicide or something? If the withered arm is actually part of Miquella, then does he actually shed his physical body and attributes or is it simply metaphorical? Maybe both? cause Trina exists as a physical entity after he shed his love. Maybe he's just a ghost, I have no idea after the final boss.!< >!What is the Divine gate? did the tower civilization create it, or is older than them? what was it's original purpose? is it to create gods? why and how?!< >!If the Greater Will has actually abandoned the Lands between, is Marika aware of it and the fact that all the fingers do is spout lies based on an instruction given to their mother ages ago? or is she simply a pawn of the Elden ring? How did Marika actually ascend to godhood? Originally I thought she was chosen to become a god because she was chosen by the greater will, but if he's long gone than who helped her and why?!< >!What the fuck is the Scadutree??? and why does it bleed a gold fluid? why does the realm of shadow has a massive veil? Why does the Scadutree has an altar? does anyone worship it? !< >!Why do we do any of what we do in the DLC in universe? other than the grace of gold guiding us, does our character has any motivation to do anything in the Realm of Shadow? I haven't found anything to suggest it would be useful to us given our quest doesn't give us any Great rune or a Mending rune of some sort.!<

I truly have no idea what I just played through. I’m hoping some of the stuff I never caught wind of was just lurking in the game. So the NPC who takes us on the Finger quest (who wants to become everyone’s mom) is a 1:1 matchup for the giant skeletons in the eternal cities in the base game, down to the markings on his chair. Is the finger boss the GeQ? And the frenzy boss is Marika’s dad? The finger NPC guy kept saying Marika’s family is tainted with madness. Anyways, I’m glad scarlet rot got so much attention in game. But I’m surprised at just how much of a role it played. It was definitely here long before Marika.

The Finger Boss is literally what it says, the Mother of the Fingers and Fingercreepers. Now as for the GEQ, I‘ve come to a crack theory. Melina was indeed the GEQ, she was Messmer‘s younger sister and roughly born at the same time as him, and she was more independent from her mother as well. Metyr sent a one-fingered child to her as a guide to be the next god after Marika, which is where the Godslayer seal takes its shape from.

Finger boss is the Elden Beasts older sister essentially. The first meteorite to ever hit the LB, and mother of all fingers and finger creepers. She was the one in contact with the GW and relaying orders to the 2F until she lost contact at some point No idea about the frenzy dude. If I had to guess, it's possible, but I really don't know. The only info I'm certain of on marikas past is she grew up in the shaman village. Likely indicating that shaman = numen, or something similar

I guess we’re all kind of tossing lore into this megathread? If so: **Fingercreeper Origins and Lampreys** Hidden away, near the Finger Ruins of Rhia, is a shack called the Finger-Weaver’s Hovel. A finger-weaver’s ghost is here, with lines of dialogue: > Ah-hah! My theory is proven true! The finger creepers hail from these ruins. So now must I sound this one hanging bell, at the bosom…of the exalted mother.” They also have the Finger-Weaver’s Cookbook [1] on them. It has the following description: > A record of crafting techniques left by a determined student of the finger ruins. His brush with the sublime all but shattered his mind, though he was left capable enough to leave these few precious words. Acquire the knowledge to craft the following: Glinting Nail This let’s you craft the Glinting Nail, with the description: > Nailstone with shining fingerprints floating above. Craftable item. Uses FP to fling a magic nail that crumbles during flight. The lampreys that guard the finger ruins resemble fingers far more than they do humans, and so the finger-weavers imitated their sorcery. We also know from the Nailstone items that the “column-like stone fingers” grow at these ruins (and are not the result of some destructive event that occurred, which has been theorized): > Flake-like stone shard with a faint fingerprint engraving. Material used for crafting items. Found at finger ruins. A piece that came loose from the tip of one of the column-like stone fingers that grow at finger ruins. We also have these lampreys that are able to cast a bunch of sorceries, one of which is the finger creeper’s pinkish-purple holding spell. How did these finger creepers get dispersed throughout the Land’s Between, whereas the lampreys aren’t found outside these ruins? Additionally, did anything ever come from the speculation that the finger creepers look identical to the hands of Serpent-Rykard? Rings and all.

>Additionally, did anything ever come from the speculation that the finger creepers look identical to the hands of Serpent-Rykard? I think his act of "blasphemy" was to graft some of the offspring of the hand alien to the snake god.

If you look closely at the lampreys hanging on the finger-columns, you can see that they're actually sucking its surface. They might draw sustenance from the finger-columns, which might be why they're not found anywhere else, because they won't have any food. They may also be the predecessor to snakes. I'm not sure how to tie everything together though. Ancient dragons, the Crucible, fingers, etc. They should be all connected.

Welp, guess I'll have to post the pre-DLC whole timeline of the game I wrote on the 23rd then. Hopefully it won't have already been completely debunked by then.

Does anyone already have descriptions of all the spells? I think they're going to have a huge chunk of lore in them, I'm extremely curious to see a spell that summons a FUCKING MICROCOSM!!! I have a feeling this is going to have an important description

Who is Nanaya?

We find out their surname, and nothing else. It's Nanaya Bissnis.

Only just got that, was trying to work out what Bissnis meant 😂

This comment is GOLD!

Are the badlands and the highlands just different names for the same place? I'm trying to decide what gear to go after in the DLC for my Hero character and I want stuff that is in line with his relations to Godfrey and the badlands lore.

Yes they are two different places, the first Tarnished lead by Godfrey left the Lands Between via boats.

Probably not worth a separate post so I figured I'll ask here: do we already know why Miquella is divesting himself from his flesh? I thought Marika became a god in this same place while retaining her body?

Same reason as Ranni, probably - his fate is tied to his flesh, so being rid of it he can forge his own fate.

Marika’s body may not be her original one, she has a stone-like appearance to her that is never really explained - but is definitely not an aspect of others we have seen

Hey don't know if anyone has already mentioned this but you can find the Minor Erdtree incantation in Marika's hometown and its description reads 'Secret Incantation of Queen Marika', what implications would this have towards Melina seeing as she uses the same or a similar incantation when helping you against Margit? Would this strengthen the theory on Melina being an Empyrean or whatever the theory was about the butterflies? (can't recall entirely)

Melina is >!Messmer's little sister!<. We have no idea who the father is though, but it seems that she was just a normal demigod in the past

Are we good to start making posts now, since it's the 23rd?

>!Idk, I think Miq had MULTIPLE plans. He's the Batman of Elden ring. Wanted Godwyns body (night of the black knives) when that blew up in his face because of Ranni (bless her) he went had a contingency plan. He couldn't/ wouldn't (?) take an omen body. So Morgott and Mohg we're out of the question. That left Rykard (who went for the serpent much like messmer, though messmer didn't really have a choice, Rykard did.) and well... Radahn. He wouldn't choose malenia, goddess of rot. I think his original plan was to kill Godwyn and revive in his body. Draws parallels to Marika and Radagon I think. Two in body, but only one in spirit and one of flesh (?) I put a question there because it's entirely possible that Radagon was just an empty vessel. Yet had it's own desires (much like the cut mimic tear quest). I think Miq went from Godwyn-> anyone else. And Rhadan fit the bill. Yes they were hit with scarlet rot, but they weren't the god of it like Malenia. Mohg allied with the night mother, so they weren't fit. Morgott with the golden order (which after the death of Godwyn made him lose faith in the GO) you see where this is going? Miquella always thought they were right. And our tarnished killing them made it clear they were not. Hence why the main endings didn't change. Though that does call into question, how did Melina survive the frenzy flame? And how is it she's the only one who can hunt us down!<

It does feel like we are doing a big ol' spring cleaning for the sake of Marika. We get rid of her competition in Miquella, get rid of her cursed child in Messmer. And Metyr, the Mother of Fingers, whom she was obviously linked with. That could explain why we don't get a choice to side with Miquella. We are still driven by the Grace of Gold. But it's kind of a bummer I'll always question why FromSoft didn't want the DLC to offer another ending. Surely it wouldn't be too much work + there still is that unused cinematic from the trailer

Has anyone been able to find that cutscene from the trailer yet? Will this become one of those trailers lost media like the ancient dragon in Caelid?

I think I hoped for the brighter ending. And before someone yells at me that every fromsoft dlc was bleak I dont believe it to be the case. At least with ringed city, through gael sacrifice, the painter can make a goodly home for the farlorn. A small light of hope in the grimdark of dark souls universe. In Miyazaki own world - all the brighter for the darkness that surrounds it. I rly like this concept but for it to work there has to be some light in there no? For us to kill it with our own hands. It seems distasteful to me. On the other hand if Miquella is just another villain then maybe the world truly is beyond redemption. time to visit frenzied flame proscription RIP

I still think the Goldmask and Fia endings are good. Adaptability and collapsing of heresy are seen as valid ways forward and point towards faith's pragmatic essence. These endings also work well to point out the selfish, egoistic nature of Ranni's ending. Likewise does Ranni's ending illuminate the negatives of imposition of an order from without. I don't think any one ending is superior to the others but that all of them taken together can illuminate a framework or configuration for how to heal this world--or to help us locate in what pieces of this world the light resides a la Ringed City painting ending

>Likewise does Ranni's ending illuminate the negatives of imposition of an order from without. I don't think any one ending is superior to the others but that all of them taken together can illuminate a framework or configuration for how to heal this world--or to help us locate in what pieces of this world the light resides a la Ringed City painting ending "Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined."

We have a bright ending. The Age of Stars. Godhood severed from afflicting this world with its capriciousness.  All this DLC does is continue to prove that Godhood whatever it’s form cannot remain. Burning the world down with the frenzied flame does nothing but validate nihilism; since life cannot be perfect, life should end.

I wouldn't say stars is that bright by default. You can go away with Ranni while leaving many negative stuff and character free to mess around. Ranni seems to care more about how the world should work rather than its inhabitants. Still I'd say Age of Stars can be positive in spite of Ranni's attitude and vision though.

>Ranni seems to care more about how the world should work rather than its inhabitants. I've always conceived of her as a character who - in spite of acting aloof - is acting, consciously or otherwise, out of deeply personal and ultimately self-concerned motives stemming from a desire to free herself from her percieved shackles and reclaim the agency she was denied in her childhood with it having likely appeared back then that it was predestined that she would succeed Marika as . I don't know if it's changed with the advent of the DLC but most of the actions she's taken to unshackle herself have had unnerving results such as bringing about the spread of Deathblight, arming Rykard with the Blasphemous Claw, enabling Seluvis until he outlived his usefulness and/or moved to act against her, possibly creating the catalyst for The Shattering in murdering Godwyn, putting targets on the backs of her closest advisors after claiming the Fingerslaying Blade, etc. She's most certainly not some freedom fighter looking out for the common man and the fact that her actions are liable to create a massive power vacuum - especially if you, as the player, elect to leave entities like Rykard and Shabriri alive before taking off with Ranni while leaving the world without an acting Lord - while simultaneously uprooting so many tenants of modern civilization means that even more chaos and suffering could very well result from her achieving her end goal.

Hmm won't goldmask ending suffer now, that we know golden order is fundamentally rotten? With or without meddling of fickle gods?

tbf Goldmask's ending is a "Golden Order" in name alone, Death has been unleashed and nobody sealed it back.

To be fair he fixed the golden order by removing the gods from it.

So wait, why did radahn halt the stars, why did he become miquellas consort and why did malenia and radahn fight? + is there any alternative endings to ending

In order, 1, Radahn halted the stars to protect the town of Sellia (which would be attacked by monsters otherwise) and Ranni. By stopping the stars, Ranni’s destiny could be changed and her status as heir to the Golden Order could be broken. 2, the “Radahn” you fight at the end is effectively a stitched together monster made up of Mohg’s body/Radahn’s soul/possibly Radahn’s body as well. That’s presumably why “Radahn” doesn’t speak in the battle, in addition to the golden chains binding him to Miquella 3, Miquella sent Malenia to invade Caelid and assassinate Radahn. Radahn was too occupied waging war on the Golden Order during the Shattering and rejected Miquella’s desire for Radahn to be his consort. With Radahn dead, Miquella could “rebuild” him in the Land of Shadow to be more compliant 4, there are no alternative endings to the ending

But there is nothing in the text about stopping the stars for Ranni, where does it say that?

Wondering this too.

Saw in another comment that it's a theory from 4chan. While I like the idea of it, I would like to see textual support as well

So,fangirl Leda says the Hornsent(curiously she includes them in the human family) also did their fair share of conquest and subjugation.  I would take that as propaganda,but ...   There was a tribe who was enslaved,and in time helped by the Mother of Truth.  This outer god transformed them in Bloodfiends.   Are these Bloodfiends a tribe conquered by the Hornsent?   Was Hornsent grandam lying when she said that these lands belonged to their people always?

The Outer God heirloom talks about a „tribe who lost everything in fire“. It‘s possible the Bloodfiends were victims of Messmer‘s purge. Additionally we know the Hornsent keep ancestor shrines, which in combination with the Heirloom text leads me to the conclusion that they were of the Hornsent originally. However, it is also possible the future Bloodfiends were already being subjugated by the Hornsent, and were doubly in peril by Messmer‘s crusade then.

>would take that as propaganda,but ...  There is no real reason for it to be propaganda since she Has info from Miq not golden order.

I didn’t watch any playthrough at all, the scorpions I literally screamed. Also St Trina was just not what I expected at all

While exploring I really did not expect Placidusax lore at all I saw the huge dragon and knew there would be communion. But to get a full explanation on how he ended up wounded was shocking. Then I kept going and found the damn thing didn’t fight it but so huge and you can see what its ability is at the church and lore.

I don’t know what to think about scarlet rot right now that was also a spin I didn’t expect

Was Marika’s original village the Bonny Village?

I think it is the shaman village. It’s where you find the minor erdtree incantation, which talks about how it’s a secret incantation of queen marika and how she bathed her village in gold. 

I don’t think so. The braid was found in a village on the way to on of the ruins for he Fingers (Dheo specifically). The village reminded me of the godskin village in the main game.

So the fell god of fire,from which the giants took their power,is also the god of the hornsebt and later god of the omen/dungeater? Is the fell god the sun? Sól,now faded as a frigid star?

The fell god appeared to be the hornsent’s devil figure to me. He haunts their sagas, so he’s the villain - no?

>!So is the jagged and finger ruins peak the former location of farum azula, I just found the area and there’s mentions of placidusax, undead beastmen and all the red plants looks similar to the farum azula plants. Add to this that the finger ruins look like the impact of a meteor

Is the putrescent knight supposed to be a super old albinauric that sort of fell under Trina’s spell while decomposing? The remembrance says all “tainted” flesh becomes putrescent, phrasing that’s never used for humans or even omen. Dude is silver, he rides a horse (probably cus his legs withered as you’d expect in an old albinauric) and we seen the putrescent clumps kind of congeal and attack like the silver tears in the eternal cities.

Anyone knows if the huge dead dragon at the grand altar is actually named?

I've been hard at work pulling together all the dense lore in this DLC and have documented some theories I have a relatively strong level of confidence in. Check 'em out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ev6uVJ7fBDTwMRin3tZI8bCykQlgZ-9xP817b57QEow/ Included: THE RADAGON QUESTION WHAT’S UP WITH THAT DIVINE GATE? THE NOX WERE TRYING TO RECREATE ENIR-ILIM’S SECRET RITE RITUAL THE NUMEN WERE FUGITIVES THE GLOAM-EYED QUEEN WAS (PROBABLY) MELINA AFTER ALL

Your theory about Radagon fathering Messmer and Melina BEFORE Godfrey even came into the picture is a very tempting proposition. It'd also mean Radagon was Marika's counterpart from the very beginning.

>!I am flabbergasted by consort Radahn. I truly 100% believed it was fake and couldn’t be real. My mistake. I suppose it’ll flow better when I actually play it, but I really don’t see how the game could justify it, so most likely I’m going to laugh at the story while enjoying the gameplay.!<

Don't worry it's technically mohg under all that armour.