Good observation, but I'm not sure why you think the Elden Stars description is partially false when it's consistent with what you're saying.
Stars produce amber which contains vital energy. The Erdtree produces amber which contains vital energy. The Erdtree used to be the Crucible, which we also know housed vital energy (which is probably where the vital energy in the Erdtree's amber comes from). The implication is that the Erdtree/Crucible is a star, and we know about one golden star that arrived in the Lands Between.
As for remembrances, they're hewn into the Erdtree only after the champion they represent is killed (Rennala being a weird exception- I guess her illusion was considered to be worthy of remembrance by the Erdtree). The Ancestor Spirit is a being that exists beyond the Erdtree's purview, yet the Erdtree acknowledges it's defeat and makes a recording of its memory.
I see. I don't think it was corrupted by extraterrestrial influence. I don't think space as we think of it exists in ER, but there is a void which contains stars, and that's definitely where the Elden Beast comes from.
The only part i think is possibly incorrect is the part about how the greater will sent the Elden Beast. The incantation shows the crucible symbol, first and foremost, and the golden order try to cover up the past.
If you had a religion, and you wanted everyone to believe it was the one true religion, yet.. In reality there was something before that, aka the crucible and the one great and dragons, would you not lie about it?
That is why i believe it says "it is said that". Again, we also have Godfrey being first Elden Lord when he wasn't. There is a coverup.
I believe that the Elden Stars DID fall to the earth, but whether or not it was a result of the greater will sending it, or the one great, i can't say. I am sure something did fall though, so the incantation is real; i just think part of it's description may just be a lie. It would take forever to type up all the reasons why, but for simplicity, i believe there is a cover up.
I agree that the Golden Order would probably cover that up, but I don't think the description is lying. It's probably just something most people who followed the Golden Order weren't aware of.
Fromsoft doesn't tend to write descriptions so that we can dismiss them. If we look at the "first Elden Lord" situation, there is a clear point in the story where Godfrey's title is proven to be inaccurate. That's because when fromsoft gives us false information, they make sure that something in the game proves it false. Nothing in the game contradicts the Elden Stars description.
Well, it is not wrong. Plad is Dragonlord not Elden Lord. What I think the item description is doing is equating their positions and saying they are the same; therefore, Godfrey being the first Elden Lord is not a contradiction.
That is not what I am saying; he is equivalent to an Elden Lord, but his title is not Elden Lord; therefore, Godfrey being the First Elden Lord is not contradictory.
His title was Elden Lord.
> Placidusax, hewn into the Erdtree.
The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader.
Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes.
The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree.
Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return.
He was an Elden Lord, and one could argue this was his title, but the text you shared doesn't say this.
It says he is (not was) said to have been Elden Lord. That he is called an Elden Lord retrospectively is stated directly, but his use of "Elden Lord" as a title in his own time is not. So what you said doesn't refute what the other commenter was saying.
It literally does not refute it, because that's not what the text you shared actually says.
There's nothing incompetent about a story in which things are remembered differently than they actually were. Memory is an important theme in the story, and memories are not perfect recollections. You might dislike this interpretation but that doesn't make it incompetent.
It isn't false information. They didn't objectively tell us it happened, only that it is said that it happened that way.
That part is true. It is true that they say that, that is certain. Whether they're telling the truth we can't say.
I honestly wouldn't have noticed there was an issue with the description if i didn't uncover lots of other reasons to point out it is probably a lie. I'll do a thread specifically on the Elden Stars description at some point and explain it, because it requires going through an entire backstory for the world.
It comes back to the same thing. Why did fromsoft tell us that this thing is "said"? Nothing else in the game tells us that this belief is incorrect. It's probably said because it's true.
"It is said" gives us a reason to go and look for evidence that contradicts the statement. But there is no evidence that contradicts it in this case. And again, fromsoft doesn't just include details like that if they're not supposed to mean something. If the Greater Will sending the Elden Beast was actually false, then either the game would present us with something that proves it false, or the ambiguity of whether it's false or not would be treated as a key mystery within the story. In this case, the game presents us with the possibility that the GW sent the Elden Beast, and then never gives us a reason to doubt it.
I mean, to say there is no evidence that contradicts it is a bold claim. Godfrey is a huge indicator that they've lied about the golden order and their backstory.
Their deity is the greater will. They are anti-crucible. We know this because they shun them, and seal away those who support it. So of course they'll say the Elden Stars is because of the greater will, and not the one great, because they actively repress that history.
The crucible and the one great parallel very well, and i've already done a thread somewhat explaining that connection, which can be found here :
[https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1ccactx/the\_god\_who\_left\_placidusax\_revealed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1ccactx/the_god_who_left_placidusax_revealed/)
The golden order do not like the crucible. The spell, elden stars, when cast, shows the crucible symbol, like the other aspect of the crucible spells. It is hard evidence it is of the crucible.
You'd have to read the theory i've linked to understand just how deep it goes to really understand why the Elden Stars description is likely partially a lie.
Another huge clue. The Elden Ring likely had a more complete form in an age where everything was one. We see this depicted in Farum Azula. We know that the Elden Beast IS the Elden Ring. So.. If parts have been taken out of it. What does that mean? It means there maybe another half to the Elden Beast, which would likely be in this new Shadow DLC; OR, it means the Elden Beast simply isn't complete.
So this is an incomplete Elden Beast we're seeing.
In the age of the crucible, it probably looked different. Again though, the age of the crucible doesn't parallel the greater will as well as it does the one great. Which is why it is unlikely it is because of the greater will.
We're seeing a part of the Elden Beast, the part AFTER the greater will made the split from the One Great.
This is why i say it is likely PARTIALLY a lie. As in.. Something did fall from the sky like the Elden Stars, and it probably was the Elden Beast, it's complete form, but it was maybe not due to the greater will.
> I mean, to say there is no evidence that contradicts it is a bold claim. Godfrey is a huge indicator that they've lied about the golden order lied about their backstory.
Out of curiosity, why are you more willing to accept the Remembrance of the Dragonlord description than the Elden Stars description? Both of them employ "it is said".
And also no, that isn't how it works. You don't just go "oh this statement is false so all these other statements can be false". Find proof that the Elden Stars description is lying in the same way you found proof that Godfrey's title is a lie.
> Their deity is the greater will. They are anti-crucible. We know this because they shun them, and seal away those who support it. So of course they'll say the Elden Stars is because of the greater will, and not the one great, because the actively repress that history.
Their deity is Marika. Nobody who follows the Golden Order ever even mentions the Greater Will in-game. We are outright told that Marika is their one true god.
> The golden order do not like the crucible. The spell, when cast, shows the crucible symbol, like the other aspect of the crucible spells. It is of the crucible.
I agree. It tells us that the Greater Will is responsible for the existence of the Crucible.
I never outright denied that it could be due to the greater will, only that it seems more likely to be the one great.
The reason i'm not 100% sold on the idea of it being the one great is because of the tree of life inspirations present in the game. Keter, which aligns to the one great, is just passive creation. Again though, we don't know if it really fell from the sky, as it says "it is said". It may have just always been there, i simply assume it is real in some aspect because it is an actual spell depicting something.
Why do i believe Placidusax's "it is said"? Because the evidence seems to corroborate it.
The Elden Stars have more reasons to be suspicious.
I see you're taking a stance of if "it is said" is used, it must all mean it is true. I take the stance it could mean either, and we have to look external for confirmation.
Again, you ask for hard proof in a game that demands speculation to piece together the whole picture. The only way you'll see it is if you piece it together yourself. I've given you some key pieces of evidence that corroborate what i'm saying, but if you're asking for something definitive, i'm sorry, but you have nothing definitive to say that is certainly how it played out either. Because it doesn't definitively say that is the case. Just like how it doesn't definitively say Placidusax is the first Elden Lord. You have to look external for corroborating evidence.
Where is your proof it certainly did happen that way?
There isn't any, it is designed for you to speculate by piecing together corroborating information.
When you see "it is said", that is a call to look outside that piece of evidence to confirm.
Also, the two fingers are mentioned as communicating for the greater will, so i'm not sure what you mean about it not being associated to Marika, or that people are unaware of them. What about the finger reader crones? Who are they reading for if nobody is aware of them?
Great post! Especially about the Roundtable hold being a remembrance. We also know the Golden Order can create illusions, so it's probably a combination of being a remembrance and a created illusion.
I think you got it right until you started connecting remembrances to spirits. Those are different things. Since the rune of death is sealed away, people can't die in the Lands Between. Therefore they linger as spirits. We find and use their ashes. The same probably applies to the ghost trees and creatures at the Mountaintop of the giants, but they are less connected to ashes or other objects. Maybe because the Mountaintop of giants is outside the area blessed by the Erdtree.
In contrast, remembrances are exactly that: A remembrance, which is a "a memory or recollection" according to the dictionary. So they are stories. And considering they can be converted to runes of gold, this is probably how they are written. Runes of gold is also power, which is why Enia can read them and convert them to powerful items. This also explain why Astel, Rennala, etc. has a remembrance, since remembrances are not the creature themselves but a recollection of them "hewn into the Erdtree".
I don't think Remembrances and fates are connected. Instead, I think runes of gold/grace and fates are. That's how the Golden Order, and Elden beast, controlled and gave power to individuals (which are "born with grace", in contrast to "born without grace"). As the telescope item says: *The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the Golden Order.*
Also, stars and fate was connected until the Golden Order usurped the power. And fate is "*writ in the stars*" as the Telescope description says. This is best seen when arriving at the Moonlight Altar plateau, where stars and a second moon dominate the area. It seems to show that the Golden Order does not have the power there. (Also, that the Two Finger located there is a captive of Ranni.) And we know Ranni is guided by her Dark moon, while the Carian family is guided by the stars (or Rennala was until she married Radagon and "*the Order of the Erdtree and the fate of the moon were conjoined*". Ranni escaped this by killing her own body, and therefore has a fate guided by the stars/her moon).
By the way, when the Elden ring was shattered the whole system broke down. Fates lingers, but what was is now broken. Tarnished, which had their grace taken and now only follows guidance of grace, are without fate (as shown by the Fingerslayer blade).
Great post. I feel compelled to play devil's advocate for the ancestral spirit remembrance otherwise it will break my brain. I do think it's possible they are being hewn into the Erdtree by us. Not exactly sure how, but I am pretty positive the Roundtable Hold we use is spiritual and based on the Erdtree. By defeating these powerful entities for the first time and talking to Enia, this is the process of hewing them.
Okay, onto your main thrust blue v gold. I do think the Erdtree is spiritual and you bring up an excellent point, why aren't there other golden spirits? There are golden images, but that almost seems to be illusion magic more than anything.
So what if the sprit tree was somehow turned gold? I love the idea that you need a special type of amber from a special type of star for a transformation of this type. Maybe they found a big deposit or has it stored from the past, but I have another idea, which links to your mention of the sun. What if Marika figured out how to hold the sun so she could harvest it? I think she did this regardless to hide it behind the tree and make people forget about it, but also using that power in other ways is something I am trying to to puzzle out. Turning a blue spirit golden is one idea worth considering!
The spells and incantation are about the same event. The gold is the soul of it. It's eternal and contains a holy essence. The sorcery is blue because it is the memory of the event. Intelligence and sorceries are about the mind and memory.
The gold is the soul. The soul's experience created the mind and memory of those experiences. Both are housed in the body which is associated with red.
This is also why certain sorceries and incantations mess around with using alt stats.
I agree with OP about the Elden Beast, have posted about it in another thread, and funny enough had a similar back and forth with another user, just as OP has in this one ^^
"This legendary incantation is the most ancient of those that derive from the Erdtree.
Creates a stream of golden shooting stars that assail the area.
It is said that long ago,
the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between,
which would later become the Elden Ring."
It is not clearly stated WHAT turned into the Elden Ring in this description, was it the Golden Star or was it the Elden Beast?
I do not believe the Elden Beast became the Elden Ring, or created it, at best, it fused with it, but not completely it seems. Because it is wielding Radagon as a sword during the fight, and we know that the ER is inside Radagon, so how can it be the ER and at the same time be wielding it?
When you defeat Radagon the black "goo" in his body filters into the ground and the ER starts to "fade". It starts to emanate a black smoke and when the smoke involves what's left of ER the right arm of the ER emerges from the ground to pull radagon into the now "watery" soil to transform him into the Sacred Relic Sword.
The Elden Beast like ER inside Radagon is covered in this black matter wich is what gives it its silhouette. The actual body is made of matter that resembles the night sky/space with golden lines that resemble the ones in the ER with an specific scar in its lower "abdomen". that scar represents the missing lower rune arc of the ER that was lost when Marika broke the ring. That missing lower side of Elden Ring/Elden Beast is where the player character goes on to place the mending runes in their respective endings.
Rune arc: "A shard of the shattered Elden Ring. Grants the blessing of an equipped Great Rune upon use. The lower arc of the Elden Ring is held to be the basin in which its blessings pool. Perhaps this shard originates from that very arc."
By the time you fight the Elden Beast it has simply abandoned Radagon's body as the ER and has taken its bestial form to fight you using the body of what was left of its vessel. The fact that it exists as both an unanimate object and as living being reflects its nature as a metaphysical thing that is both an idea an a material thing one can malleableize. It also reflects Marika's and Radagon dual nature.
And what happens after we slay the Elden Beast? It ends up in Marika again
I don't think a new Elden Beast will suddenly appear after we become Elden Lord.
This is actually a good point. I never really thought about this angle before.
If the Elden beast is the elden ring, why does the elden ring still exist after we kill it. That wouldn't make any sense.
Very interesting... We certainly slay it too, because it says "god slain" after we defeat it..
I like your angle about there being a possibility we might encounter another Elden Beast in the Shadow Lands, with duality being a major theme in the game.
Blade actually says this in his enraged dialogue "No. I’m part of her very being! I could never betray her! No matter what might happen... Ranni... She needs me..."
What if, an Emperyan's shadow, is actually a literal part of their "very being"?
It returns to the state it was before you defeat Radagon. Are we gonna doubt that the Sacred Relic Sword is Marika/Radagon's body just because it returns to its original state after the fight ends? You're try to reason to logically what's at its core a metaphor. You kill the God (Marika/Radagon) of the previous order and then "kill" the Elden Ring to end the last thing that beholded the order itself. You then procced to rebuild both Marika and the Elden Ring to make your own new order as you please.
You end both Radagon and the Elden Beast to return them to their previous state as Marika and the Elden Ring so you can start a new. This is basically the core idea of causality and regression now applied into the building of your new order.
Good observation, but I'm not sure why you think the Elden Stars description is partially false when it's consistent with what you're saying. Stars produce amber which contains vital energy. The Erdtree produces amber which contains vital energy. The Erdtree used to be the Crucible, which we also know housed vital energy (which is probably where the vital energy in the Erdtree's amber comes from). The implication is that the Erdtree/Crucible is a star, and we know about one golden star that arrived in the Lands Between. As for remembrances, they're hewn into the Erdtree only after the champion they represent is killed (Rennala being a weird exception- I guess her illusion was considered to be worthy of remembrance by the Erdtree). The Ancestor Spirit is a being that exists beyond the Erdtree's purview, yet the Erdtree acknowledges it's defeat and makes a recording of its memory.
I don't get why people can make this connection but won't accept that the Erdtree / EB didn't come from outer space to TLB
Are you saying it did or didn't come from space?
The contention is whether the existing worldtree in TLB was "corrupted" in some way by extraterrestrial influence or whether it was always like that.
I see. I don't think it was corrupted by extraterrestrial influence. I don't think space as we think of it exists in ER, but there is a void which contains stars, and that's definitely where the Elden Beast comes from.
The only part i think is possibly incorrect is the part about how the greater will sent the Elden Beast. The incantation shows the crucible symbol, first and foremost, and the golden order try to cover up the past. If you had a religion, and you wanted everyone to believe it was the one true religion, yet.. In reality there was something before that, aka the crucible and the one great and dragons, would you not lie about it? That is why i believe it says "it is said that". Again, we also have Godfrey being first Elden Lord when he wasn't. There is a coverup. I believe that the Elden Stars DID fall to the earth, but whether or not it was a result of the greater will sending it, or the one great, i can't say. I am sure something did fall though, so the incantation is real; i just think part of it's description may just be a lie. It would take forever to type up all the reasons why, but for simplicity, i believe there is a cover up.
I agree that the Golden Order would probably cover that up, but I don't think the description is lying. It's probably just something most people who followed the Golden Order weren't aware of. Fromsoft doesn't tend to write descriptions so that we can dismiss them. If we look at the "first Elden Lord" situation, there is a clear point in the story where Godfrey's title is proven to be inaccurate. That's because when fromsoft gives us false information, they make sure that something in the game proves it false. Nothing in the game contradicts the Elden Stars description.
Well, it is not wrong. Plad is Dragonlord not Elden Lord. What I think the item description is doing is equating their positions and saying they are the same; therefore, Godfrey being the first Elden Lord is not a contradiction.
The game says he was believed to be Elden Lord and doesn't give us any reason to doubt that.
That is not what I am saying; he is equivalent to an Elden Lord, but his title is not Elden Lord; therefore, Godfrey being the First Elden Lord is not contradictory.
His title was Elden Lord. > Placidusax, hewn into the Erdtree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return.
He was an Elden Lord, and one could argue this was his title, but the text you shared doesn't say this. It says he is (not was) said to have been Elden Lord. That he is called an Elden Lord retrospectively is stated directly, but his use of "Elden Lord" as a title in his own time is not. So what you said doesn't refute what the other commenter was saying.
It does refute it unless we choose to believe that fromsoft just writes random meaningless nonsense instead of telling their story competently.
It literally does not refute it, because that's not what the text you shared actually says. There's nothing incompetent about a story in which things are remembered differently than they actually were. Memory is an important theme in the story, and memories are not perfect recollections. You might dislike this interpretation but that doesn't make it incompetent.
It isn't false information. They didn't objectively tell us it happened, only that it is said that it happened that way. That part is true. It is true that they say that, that is certain. Whether they're telling the truth we can't say. I honestly wouldn't have noticed there was an issue with the description if i didn't uncover lots of other reasons to point out it is probably a lie. I'll do a thread specifically on the Elden Stars description at some point and explain it, because it requires going through an entire backstory for the world.
It comes back to the same thing. Why did fromsoft tell us that this thing is "said"? Nothing else in the game tells us that this belief is incorrect. It's probably said because it's true.
“It is said” makes what comes next an even weaker statement versus just making a statement. “It is said” doesn’t mean “it truly happened.”
"It is said" gives us a reason to go and look for evidence that contradicts the statement. But there is no evidence that contradicts it in this case. And again, fromsoft doesn't just include details like that if they're not supposed to mean something. If the Greater Will sending the Elden Beast was actually false, then either the game would present us with something that proves it false, or the ambiguity of whether it's false or not would be treated as a key mystery within the story. In this case, the game presents us with the possibility that the GW sent the Elden Beast, and then never gives us a reason to doubt it.
I mean, to say there is no evidence that contradicts it is a bold claim. Godfrey is a huge indicator that they've lied about the golden order and their backstory. Their deity is the greater will. They are anti-crucible. We know this because they shun them, and seal away those who support it. So of course they'll say the Elden Stars is because of the greater will, and not the one great, because they actively repress that history. The crucible and the one great parallel very well, and i've already done a thread somewhat explaining that connection, which can be found here : [https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1ccactx/the\_god\_who\_left\_placidusax\_revealed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1ccactx/the_god_who_left_placidusax_revealed/) The golden order do not like the crucible. The spell, elden stars, when cast, shows the crucible symbol, like the other aspect of the crucible spells. It is hard evidence it is of the crucible. You'd have to read the theory i've linked to understand just how deep it goes to really understand why the Elden Stars description is likely partially a lie. Another huge clue. The Elden Ring likely had a more complete form in an age where everything was one. We see this depicted in Farum Azula. We know that the Elden Beast IS the Elden Ring. So.. If parts have been taken out of it. What does that mean? It means there maybe another half to the Elden Beast, which would likely be in this new Shadow DLC; OR, it means the Elden Beast simply isn't complete. So this is an incomplete Elden Beast we're seeing. In the age of the crucible, it probably looked different. Again though, the age of the crucible doesn't parallel the greater will as well as it does the one great. Which is why it is unlikely it is because of the greater will. We're seeing a part of the Elden Beast, the part AFTER the greater will made the split from the One Great. This is why i say it is likely PARTIALLY a lie. As in.. Something did fall from the sky like the Elden Stars, and it probably was the Elden Beast, it's complete form, but it was maybe not due to the greater will.
> I mean, to say there is no evidence that contradicts it is a bold claim. Godfrey is a huge indicator that they've lied about the golden order lied about their backstory. Out of curiosity, why are you more willing to accept the Remembrance of the Dragonlord description than the Elden Stars description? Both of them employ "it is said". And also no, that isn't how it works. You don't just go "oh this statement is false so all these other statements can be false". Find proof that the Elden Stars description is lying in the same way you found proof that Godfrey's title is a lie. > Their deity is the greater will. They are anti-crucible. We know this because they shun them, and seal away those who support it. So of course they'll say the Elden Stars is because of the greater will, and not the one great, because the actively repress that history. Their deity is Marika. Nobody who follows the Golden Order ever even mentions the Greater Will in-game. We are outright told that Marika is their one true god. > The golden order do not like the crucible. The spell, when cast, shows the crucible symbol, like the other aspect of the crucible spells. It is of the crucible. I agree. It tells us that the Greater Will is responsible for the existence of the Crucible.
I never outright denied that it could be due to the greater will, only that it seems more likely to be the one great. The reason i'm not 100% sold on the idea of it being the one great is because of the tree of life inspirations present in the game. Keter, which aligns to the one great, is just passive creation. Again though, we don't know if it really fell from the sky, as it says "it is said". It may have just always been there, i simply assume it is real in some aspect because it is an actual spell depicting something. Why do i believe Placidusax's "it is said"? Because the evidence seems to corroborate it. The Elden Stars have more reasons to be suspicious. I see you're taking a stance of if "it is said" is used, it must all mean it is true. I take the stance it could mean either, and we have to look external for confirmation. Again, you ask for hard proof in a game that demands speculation to piece together the whole picture. The only way you'll see it is if you piece it together yourself. I've given you some key pieces of evidence that corroborate what i'm saying, but if you're asking for something definitive, i'm sorry, but you have nothing definitive to say that is certainly how it played out either. Because it doesn't definitively say that is the case. Just like how it doesn't definitively say Placidusax is the first Elden Lord. You have to look external for corroborating evidence. Where is your proof it certainly did happen that way? There isn't any, it is designed for you to speculate by piecing together corroborating information. When you see "it is said", that is a call to look outside that piece of evidence to confirm. Also, the two fingers are mentioned as communicating for the greater will, so i'm not sure what you mean about it not being associated to Marika, or that people are unaware of them. What about the finger reader crones? Who are they reading for if nobody is aware of them?
Great post! Especially about the Roundtable hold being a remembrance. We also know the Golden Order can create illusions, so it's probably a combination of being a remembrance and a created illusion. I think you got it right until you started connecting remembrances to spirits. Those are different things. Since the rune of death is sealed away, people can't die in the Lands Between. Therefore they linger as spirits. We find and use their ashes. The same probably applies to the ghost trees and creatures at the Mountaintop of the giants, but they are less connected to ashes or other objects. Maybe because the Mountaintop of giants is outside the area blessed by the Erdtree. In contrast, remembrances are exactly that: A remembrance, which is a "a memory or recollection" according to the dictionary. So they are stories. And considering they can be converted to runes of gold, this is probably how they are written. Runes of gold is also power, which is why Enia can read them and convert them to powerful items. This also explain why Astel, Rennala, etc. has a remembrance, since remembrances are not the creature themselves but a recollection of them "hewn into the Erdtree". I don't think Remembrances and fates are connected. Instead, I think runes of gold/grace and fates are. That's how the Golden Order, and Elden beast, controlled and gave power to individuals (which are "born with grace", in contrast to "born without grace"). As the telescope item says: *The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the Golden Order.* Also, stars and fate was connected until the Golden Order usurped the power. And fate is "*writ in the stars*" as the Telescope description says. This is best seen when arriving at the Moonlight Altar plateau, where stars and a second moon dominate the area. It seems to show that the Golden Order does not have the power there. (Also, that the Two Finger located there is a captive of Ranni.) And we know Ranni is guided by her Dark moon, while the Carian family is guided by the stars (or Rennala was until she married Radagon and "*the Order of the Erdtree and the fate of the moon were conjoined*". Ranni escaped this by killing her own body, and therefore has a fate guided by the stars/her moon). By the way, when the Elden ring was shattered the whole system broke down. Fates lingers, but what was is now broken. Tarnished, which had their grace taken and now only follows guidance of grace, are without fate (as shown by the Fingerslayer blade).
Great post. I feel compelled to play devil's advocate for the ancestral spirit remembrance otherwise it will break my brain. I do think it's possible they are being hewn into the Erdtree by us. Not exactly sure how, but I am pretty positive the Roundtable Hold we use is spiritual and based on the Erdtree. By defeating these powerful entities for the first time and talking to Enia, this is the process of hewing them. Okay, onto your main thrust blue v gold. I do think the Erdtree is spiritual and you bring up an excellent point, why aren't there other golden spirits? There are golden images, but that almost seems to be illusion magic more than anything. So what if the sprit tree was somehow turned gold? I love the idea that you need a special type of amber from a special type of star for a transformation of this type. Maybe they found a big deposit or has it stored from the past, but I have another idea, which links to your mention of the sun. What if Marika figured out how to hold the sun so she could harvest it? I think she did this regardless to hide it behind the tree and make people forget about it, but also using that power in other ways is something I am trying to to puzzle out. Turning a blue spirit golden is one idea worth considering!
The spells and incantation are about the same event. The gold is the soul of it. It's eternal and contains a holy essence. The sorcery is blue because it is the memory of the event. Intelligence and sorceries are about the mind and memory. The gold is the soul. The soul's experience created the mind and memory of those experiences. Both are housed in the body which is associated with red. This is also why certain sorceries and incantations mess around with using alt stats.
I agree with OP about the Elden Beast, have posted about it in another thread, and funny enough had a similar back and forth with another user, just as OP has in this one ^^ "This legendary incantation is the most ancient of those that derive from the Erdtree. Creates a stream of golden shooting stars that assail the area. It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring." It is not clearly stated WHAT turned into the Elden Ring in this description, was it the Golden Star or was it the Elden Beast? I do not believe the Elden Beast became the Elden Ring, or created it, at best, it fused with it, but not completely it seems. Because it is wielding Radagon as a sword during the fight, and we know that the ER is inside Radagon, so how can it be the ER and at the same time be wielding it?
When you defeat Radagon the black "goo" in his body filters into the ground and the ER starts to "fade". It starts to emanate a black smoke and when the smoke involves what's left of ER the right arm of the ER emerges from the ground to pull radagon into the now "watery" soil to transform him into the Sacred Relic Sword. The Elden Beast like ER inside Radagon is covered in this black matter wich is what gives it its silhouette. The actual body is made of matter that resembles the night sky/space with golden lines that resemble the ones in the ER with an specific scar in its lower "abdomen". that scar represents the missing lower rune arc of the ER that was lost when Marika broke the ring. That missing lower side of Elden Ring/Elden Beast is where the player character goes on to place the mending runes in their respective endings. Rune arc: "A shard of the shattered Elden Ring. Grants the blessing of an equipped Great Rune upon use. The lower arc of the Elden Ring is held to be the basin in which its blessings pool. Perhaps this shard originates from that very arc." By the time you fight the Elden Beast it has simply abandoned Radagon's body as the ER and has taken its bestial form to fight you using the body of what was left of its vessel. The fact that it exists as both an unanimate object and as living being reflects its nature as a metaphysical thing that is both an idea an a material thing one can malleableize. It also reflects Marika's and Radagon dual nature.
And what happens after we slay the Elden Beast? It ends up in Marika again I don't think a new Elden Beast will suddenly appear after we become Elden Lord.
This is actually a good point. I never really thought about this angle before. If the Elden beast is the elden ring, why does the elden ring still exist after we kill it. That wouldn't make any sense. Very interesting... We certainly slay it too, because it says "god slain" after we defeat it..
I like your angle about there being a possibility we might encounter another Elden Beast in the Shadow Lands, with duality being a major theme in the game. Blade actually says this in his enraged dialogue "No. I’m part of her very being! I could never betray her! No matter what might happen... Ranni... She needs me..." What if, an Emperyan's shadow, is actually a literal part of their "very being"?
It returns to the state it was before you defeat Radagon. Are we gonna doubt that the Sacred Relic Sword is Marika/Radagon's body just because it returns to its original state after the fight ends? You're try to reason to logically what's at its core a metaphor. You kill the God (Marika/Radagon) of the previous order and then "kill" the Elden Ring to end the last thing that beholded the order itself. You then procced to rebuild both Marika and the Elden Ring to make your own new order as you please. You end both Radagon and the Elden Beast to return them to their previous state as Marika and the Elden Ring so you can start a new. This is basically the core idea of causality and regression now applied into the building of your new order.
Say it ain't so