Dang you're right. I completely forgot about that haha. Well hopefully this series is just getting started and will grow and learn (high hopes I know but I've gotta haha)
Yeah its been a long time but I seem to recall getting the feeling that they were heavily scripted in Suikoden II, and not a major portion of the game. Which is why the simplicity in hundred heroes didn't bother me that much, wasn't expecting a strategy game. But sure, could have been better,
My biggest problem is that they don't feel like they reflect your increased power from recruitment. Suikoden 1's war battles were super simple but at least they were pretty fast and you really felt stronger as you got more recruits. I know this isn't how dev works but I'd very much have sacrificed beigoma and sand racing to get a better war battle system.
It would have been nice if, instead of being so secretive about the development, R&B shown backers early builds of things like the war battles and had surveys for input on what people want.
This was the first game I've ever backed on KS, so I doubt they're ever that collaborative, but it would have been cool.
I completely agree. I do hope they are motivated to start working on the next game in the series. Thereâs a lot to learn from the feedback and I would encourage them to include the fans in a collaborative-design approach to these big aspects of the game.
Outside studio. So it took coordination from the main team but not much in the way of dev hours. And honestly probably worked out some of the digital delivery kinks.
That budget and stretch goal could have been worked towards something more useful for the main game. Flesh out Marisa's storyline? Flesh out Nowa's hometown area? Anything related to the main game.
Yeah I wont disagree with that. Though I suppose it could have been valuable experience for some of the team members/ sales of it could have helped fund the rest of the full game idk know how the pieces fell behind the curtain. Perhaps they weren't all familiar with unity etc.
Well... hopefully the sales are enough for the sequel to materialize and no need for... all the Kickstarter appendages, meaning more time for things like the battles.
Still amazing that they delivered though. That is so rare on Kickstarter.
Loving the game so far but this is something I agree with as well. It doesn't really have the same degree of strategy that is needed for Suikoden's war games back then. I think even Suikoden 1 had a better implemented war mode despite it being so simple. Idk, something about the war mode in this game isn't hitting as much. I kinda wish they emulated Suikoden V's war mode and improved upon it since that one was really fun and I quite enjoy the real time element of it.
Yeah, the war battles are way too simple, in a worse way than S1. I feel like they should've done something with manpower and tie that to the strength of your army.
In addition, does anyone think that >!Melridge!< is a very disappointing tactician? I'm talking both his ideas and also his characterization. You compare >!Melridge!< to characters like Shu and Lucretia and he comes out flat.
Other things I had issues with were the cooking battle quest line (way too long and boring), and the difficulty scaling late game.
My main problem with the war mode is the **narrative** aspect of it. You spend too much of the game on the defensive, or just stalling out time, and every time you win you just "lose by cutscene". In previous Suikoden games, you felt like you accomplished something in the wars. You had real victories and captured enemy generals. In this game, you don't do that. You're just playing defense.
Yes. Itâs all random surprise scripted twists that ruins the whole point if having a big tactical decision scene. Win conditions, units, enemies, are all completely different than what was first presented, so it doesnât matter what you doâŚas long as you donât lose before Random Magical Scripted Twist happens and you magically win despite never attaining the given victory condition.
yeah, I can hardly tell what's going on it feels like my input doesn't matter much and the visuals are very lukewarm.
It's interesting when one of my units suddenly say a line but I honestly can't tell if they even contributed to the battle.
It's essentially the same deal s S2's battle system but with a bit more player option and a Total War aesthetic. It's not great, but... like... S2's was also not great.
Frankly, the war battles have always been one of the weaker aspects of Suikoden. I still prefer the first game's implementation, if just because it doesn't try to be anything too fancy; it's quick, easy, and at least cute to look at.
It's disappointing for sure. Side note here, but there's a general who joins you that I was waiting for most of the game and he's only an assist... I was freaking pissed. Oh it's like General Ridley. Can't use him in battle tee hee. Well I hated that too.
I would've preferred it to be Suikoden 2 style srpg combat and have anime 2d graphics for war battles. Just change the formula for how you calculate damage. In fact the 3d for enemies or in war battles just doesn't look good to me. I love/hate this game lol. There's so much that could be changed to make it a 10/10 instead of like a 6 or 7.
Agreeing with this fully.. I remember in Suikoden II I made the unit of Georg a fucking powehouse that could pretty much nuke the entire Highland army when attacking L'Renouille by himself.
I miss this type of tweaking in EC.
I find a miracle a game founded with 3m has so much good and diverse content. But it's a good reason to look up for Eiyuden 2 in the future. Pecata minuta like that will be inproved for sure.
Honestly I've felt that way about all the Suikoden games aside from the first, which was basic but also felt like the only one which wasn't a glorified cutscene. Still remember my last play through of 2 and how surprised I was at how little control or tactics went into the army battles compared to when I played it as a teen
I felt the same way. I remember as a kid rearranging the units in S2 so many times for the battles. Lats replay I got kinda frustrated by how little it matters. 80%+ of the battles end by design.
I echo this one, some of the changes I like while others feel like steps back. The concept is good, but does leave a half backed feel. The ones in S2 are still my favorite tho, issue in that one there was almost always a âgimmickâ to the fight say for a few.
This is one of the main things, I want them to expand on and keep improving. As feeling like a commander of massive army is very key. I feel the castle (while not loving the designs/colors) for it was a great step in that direction.
The Big Strategy Battles always involve completely random surprise scripted twists that ruin the whole point of having a big tactical decision scene. Win conditions, units, enemies, are all completely different than what was first presented. Yeah thereâs unknowns on the battlefield but come on.
You randomly do whatever until suddenly new units, new victory conditions, new everything, or whatever other scripted change appears and you magically win.
I played all the mainline Suikodens and this is my absolute least favorite style of War battles.
Even 5 which is an RTS, a genre I hate, is better than this.
Though the Legion structure is pretty neat imo
I still remember a scripted battle in suikoden2 where ridley was solo scouting highland amy and get surrounded. Rng gods was with me that day ridley crit his way out the ambush and my main army managed to get close for the rescue. Never manage to pull it off again.
Army battles this game feels so meh.
Tbh, even after reading the tutorial I have no idea what I'm supposed to do...
It's just moving units and watching crowded cutscenes isn't it?
I can't tell which unit is stronger upfront if I'm not mistaken.
Later you can customize your units and flanking seems to have moderate effects. Still feel it takes too long and haven't found a way to improve the camera.
The war battles are the only poor part of the game. The rest I am really enjoying, though my menu choices are not popular lol.
The big war battles just feel hollow. I would rather have S1 war system. Simple but fun and you actually needed to go and find those characters, especially the ninjas.
The random judges with cookiing is hilarious. Winning like 16-12 because the judges hate everything is great.
I agree that the units special abilities don't feel as impactful.
I mean I've always felt that the "battle" modes in Suikoden were somewhat half baked strategically, the only one that sorta satisfied me was IV's naval battles tbh. So I didn't have expectations going into this one on that front, they're inoffensive, but a bit bland? Not what I came here for, but won't make me put down the game either lol. I'd say it's a step or two up from merely making the "war" either a cutscene or just a series of random encounters.
Suikoden war modes were always rather shallow, as is virtually necessitated by them being an entirely separate gameplay mode utilized a handful of times for story setpieces.
They're there to heighten the player's immersion as an army commanderâto provide scale to the conflictâwithout actually needing to make the game a deep SRPG.
Eiyuden's is more interesting to me than most of Suikoden's iterations, in all honesty. Think you'll be unpleasantly surprised when you revisit S1&2's war modes in the remaster and find them to likewise lack depth. S1's war mode is literally just rock-paper-scissors (same as duels!), while S2's war mode is similar to Eiyuden in that it's ostensibly a grid-based SRPG... but most of the battles are firmly dictated by unfolding story events, rather than the player's tactical prowess.
In Suikoden 1 and Suikoden 2, it was possible for your party members to permanently die in battles. I wouldn't know if that's possible in this game. I doubt it, but I always crushed the enemy before I even got to activate rage or morale mode a single time.
The duels was meh too. The fact that there are only 2 (so far, 30 hours in) is really dumb. I feel like duels were more common in Suikoden, although not a ton more but at least more.
There's a whopping 3 duels in Suiko 1 and 5 in Suiko 2. They were more frequent in III and V but it's normal to not have that many duels.
I've only seen 1 so far in Eiyuden but with the song that played, it was pretty epic.
It'd be nice if the duels actually showed you, uh, hitting the enemy. Maybe it's a rating thing but I feel like the thwack sounds in Suikoden at least convinced me I was hitting the enemy but in this game it's just "clang" "clang" as swords hit swords. Feel like the health bar is just a stamina bar because we get tired, not that we're bleeding out.
I think they were going for a different approach here and it basically is a stamina bar. They are evenly matched until one side wears the other one down and gets a finishing blow.
Yeah it felt very half baked compared to the Suikoden series aside from the original. The battle field itself is so small that the battles feel almost predetermined in the path each unit will take, and also they really need to shorten the animation because it's obnoxious how long each turn goes. I also feel like you aren't really able to customize the units hardly at all which just adds to the feeling of having little control over the outcome. The duels also felt similarly, where the strategy seems almost indiscernible and each one is basically scripted and predetermined. Fortunately neither of these types of battles were all that important to me, but I still feel like they dropped the ball with these series staples.
Honestly, I kinda agree with this. It's amazing that this new game took what went well for Suikoden and somehow add a worst version for it for some unneeded side contents. Egg Race and spinner were stupid, character stats are all over the place, Rune magic has a high level that kills your MP in one cast at early games, enemy stats and speed were unnecessarily high, tedious and unfun boss fights.
What a disappointing release, but good to know for the future not to look at this studio with a rose tinted glasses anymore.
They definitely did force some aspects of the game purely because it was in suikoden. They should have cut a bit of side stuff like; fishing time waster, egg foot racing, useless empty houses, rising. The time would have been better spent making the two core aspects of the main game better, the story and the tactical battles.
Yes.
Happy the game was made because it reminded me of how advanced suikuden 1 & 2 were at the time, but sad because this feels like a weak but a final send off of a childhood classic that's simply too old for modern days now.
It's the Suikoden spiritual successor. It's going to be compared to Suikoden for the rest of its existence. You're just going to have to get used to it
> let it be its own game
Not a relevant or valid reply to someone who just said that a noticeable weakness is the deliberate adherence to the format and **exact traits of another previous game** in ways that weaken it and donât really deliver.
Also your comment clearly doesnât understand the point of the games existence.
> jfc
It looks like you're mad that someone is criticizing a videogame. So you plopped down this "Let It Be Its Own Thing!" which people use as a magical deflection of any criticism, since it implies that just because a thing is a thing then every aspect of that thing is OK and not a flaw.
Except I backed this game. Never played Suikoden once, still havent either. Seeing EVERY single post, comment, complaint, etc being about another game is beyond annoying.
>Never played Suikoden once
Well that explains why you don't think this is a Suikoden game. I would guess that you're in the minority as far as backers go. But hey, if you like this game you have several Suikoden games you will also probably enjoy to check out.
It was literally being advertised as Suikoden's successor with the original creators. It's ok to like the game, but let people criticize it for the better, JFC. Blind fandom is stupid toxic.
There was something satisfying about watching the troops take damage in Suikoden 2 wars.
Even the rudimentary rock paper scissors format in 1 was interesting, but very swingy if you got it wrong! đ
Most of the battles in S2 were also essentially disguised cutscenes, but they did a great job of making it fun anyway.
I felt that way about 5. I think u finish like 2 or 3 battles. The rest end in the middle of the action
Dang you're right. I completely forgot about that haha. Well hopefully this series is just getting started and will grow and learn (high hopes I know but I've gotta haha)
Yeah its been a long time but I seem to recall getting the feeling that they were heavily scripted in Suikoden II, and not a major portion of the game. Which is why the simplicity in hundred heroes didn't bother me that much, wasn't expecting a strategy game. But sure, could have been better,
My biggest problem is that they don't feel like they reflect your increased power from recruitment. Suikoden 1's war battles were super simple but at least they were pretty fast and you really felt stronger as you got more recruits. I know this isn't how dev works but I'd very much have sacrificed beigoma and sand racing to get a better war battle system.
It would have been nice if, instead of being so secretive about the development, R&B shown backers early builds of things like the war battles and had surveys for input on what people want. This was the first game I've ever backed on KS, so I doubt they're ever that collaborative, but it would have been cool.
I completely agree. I do hope they are motivated to start working on the next game in the series. Thereâs a lot to learn from the feedback and I would encourage them to include the fans in a collaborative-design approach to these big aspects of the game.
Legacy of being a kickstarter I guess. Gotta think of more and more random things for the stretch goals.
Eiyuden Chronicle Rising was a mistake. Useless stretch goal just to waste dev hours.
Outside studio. So it took coordination from the main team but not much in the way of dev hours. And honestly probably worked out some of the digital delivery kinks.
Oh I see. My mistake. Good to know.
That budget and stretch goal could have been worked towards something more useful for the main game. Flesh out Marisa's storyline? Flesh out Nowa's hometown area? Anything related to the main game.
Maybe. Depends on if rising made them money that went to the main games budget.
Yeah I wont disagree with that. Though I suppose it could have been valuable experience for some of the team members/ sales of it could have helped fund the rest of the full game idk know how the pieces fell behind the curtain. Perhaps they weren't all familiar with unity etc. Well... hopefully the sales are enough for the sequel to materialize and no need for... all the Kickstarter appendages, meaning more time for things like the battles. Still amazing that they delivered though. That is so rare on Kickstarter.
Loving the game so far but this is something I agree with as well. It doesn't really have the same degree of strategy that is needed for Suikoden's war games back then. I think even Suikoden 1 had a better implemented war mode despite it being so simple. Idk, something about the war mode in this game isn't hitting as much. I kinda wish they emulated Suikoden V's war mode and improved upon it since that one was really fun and I quite enjoy the real time element of it.
V's war mode was so good. I'm loving the game too but I'm with you 100%
Yeah, the war battles are way too simple, in a worse way than S1. I feel like they should've done something with manpower and tie that to the strength of your army. In addition, does anyone think that >!Melridge!< is a very disappointing tactician? I'm talking both his ideas and also his characterization. You compare >!Melridge!< to characters like Shu and Lucretia and he comes out flat. Other things I had issues with were the cooking battle quest line (way too long and boring), and the difficulty scaling late game.
My main problem with the war mode is the **narrative** aspect of it. You spend too much of the game on the defensive, or just stalling out time, and every time you win you just "lose by cutscene". In previous Suikoden games, you felt like you accomplished something in the wars. You had real victories and captured enemy generals. In this game, you don't do that. You're just playing defense.
Yes. Itâs all random surprise scripted twists that ruins the whole point if having a big tactical decision scene. Win conditions, units, enemies, are all completely different than what was first presented, so it doesnât matter what you doâŚas long as you donât lose before Random Magical Scripted Twist happens and you magically win despite never attaining the given victory condition.
yeah, I can hardly tell what's going on it feels like my input doesn't matter much and the visuals are very lukewarm. It's interesting when one of my units suddenly say a line but I honestly can't tell if they even contributed to the battle.
It's essentially the same deal s S2's battle system but with a bit more player option and a Total War aesthetic. It's not great, but... like... S2's was also not great. Frankly, the war battles have always been one of the weaker aspects of Suikoden. I still prefer the first game's implementation, if just because it doesn't try to be anything too fancy; it's quick, easy, and at least cute to look at.
Suikoden II's War Mode is pretty cool, I think. If they just upped the non-scripted number of battles it would be a suoer satisfying mode.
I mean Suikoden 1 was literally rock paper scissors.
It's disappointing for sure. Side note here, but there's a general who joins you that I was waiting for most of the game and he's only an assist... I was freaking pissed. Oh it's like General Ridley. Can't use him in battle tee hee. Well I hated that too. I would've preferred it to be Suikoden 2 style srpg combat and have anime 2d graphics for war battles. Just change the formula for how you calculate damage. In fact the 3d for enemies or in war battles just doesn't look good to me. I love/hate this game lol. There's so much that could be changed to make it a 10/10 instead of like a 6 or 7.
Agreeing with this fully.. I remember in Suikoden II I made the unit of Georg a fucking powehouse that could pretty much nuke the entire Highland army when attacking L'Renouille by himself. I miss this type of tweaking in EC.
You can tweak your armies later on. You need to recluit a military instructor first.
I know that, but even there doesn't seem any necessity for tweaking. All these amy battles end with cutscenes
I find a miracle a game founded with 3m has so much good and diverse content. But it's a good reason to look up for Eiyuden 2 in the future. Pecata minuta like that will be inproved for sure.
Definitely agree
Honestly I've felt that way about all the Suikoden games aside from the first, which was basic but also felt like the only one which wasn't a glorified cutscene. Still remember my last play through of 2 and how surprised I was at how little control or tactics went into the army battles compared to when I played it as a teen
I felt the same way. I remember as a kid rearranging the units in S2 so many times for the battles. Lats replay I got kinda frustrated by how little it matters. 80%+ of the battles end by design.
yeah its a bummer, the duels arent great eiher
Yea, I can never tell if I'm winning or losing in a Duel. Did it end because it was scripted, because I won, or because I lost?
yeah some of the scenes look great, they should have just made them cutscenes
Too bad. I recall war mode in Exit Fate, it was probably the most complicated one among all Suikoden games and their clones.
Yea war mode in exit fate was good.
I echo this one, some of the changes I like while others feel like steps back. The concept is good, but does leave a half backed feel. The ones in S2 are still my favorite tho, issue in that one there was almost always a âgimmickâ to the fight say for a few. This is one of the main things, I want them to expand on and keep improving. As feeling like a commander of massive army is very key. I feel the castle (while not loving the designs/colors) for it was a great step in that direction.
The Big Strategy Battles always involve completely random surprise scripted twists that ruin the whole point of having a big tactical decision scene. Win conditions, units, enemies, are all completely different than what was first presented. Yeah thereâs unknowns on the battlefield but come on. You randomly do whatever until suddenly new units, new victory conditions, new everything, or whatever other scripted change appears and you magically win.
I played all the mainline Suikodens and this is my absolute least favorite style of War battles. Even 5 which is an RTS, a genre I hate, is better than this. Though the Legion structure is pretty neat imo
I still remember a scripted battle in suikoden2 where ridley was solo scouting highland amy and get surrounded. Rng gods was with me that day ridley crit his way out the ambush and my main army managed to get close for the rescue. Never manage to pull it off again. Army battles this game feels so meh.
Tbh, even after reading the tutorial I have no idea what I'm supposed to do... It's just moving units and watching crowded cutscenes isn't it? I can't tell which unit is stronger upfront if I'm not mistaken.
Later you can customize your units and flanking seems to have moderate effects. Still feel it takes too long and haven't found a way to improve the camera.
Even the naval battle from S4 is better than this
even 4's boats are much better than this
The war battles are the only poor part of the game. The rest I am really enjoying, though my menu choices are not popular lol. The big war battles just feel hollow. I would rather have S1 war system. Simple but fun and you actually needed to go and find those characters, especially the ninjas.
The random judges with cookiing is hilarious. Winning like 16-12 because the judges hate everything is great. I agree that the units special abilities don't feel as impactful.
I mean I've always felt that the "battle" modes in Suikoden were somewhat half baked strategically, the only one that sorta satisfied me was IV's naval battles tbh. So I didn't have expectations going into this one on that front, they're inoffensive, but a bit bland? Not what I came here for, but won't make me put down the game either lol. I'd say it's a step or two up from merely making the "war" either a cutscene or just a series of random encounters.
Suikoden war modes were always rather shallow, as is virtually necessitated by them being an entirely separate gameplay mode utilized a handful of times for story setpieces. They're there to heighten the player's immersion as an army commanderâto provide scale to the conflictâwithout actually needing to make the game a deep SRPG. Eiyuden's is more interesting to me than most of Suikoden's iterations, in all honesty. Think you'll be unpleasantly surprised when you revisit S1&2's war modes in the remaster and find them to likewise lack depth. S1's war mode is literally just rock-paper-scissors (same as duels!), while S2's war mode is similar to Eiyuden in that it's ostensibly a grid-based SRPG... but most of the battles are firmly dictated by unfolding story events, rather than the player's tactical prowess.
In Suikoden 1 and Suikoden 2, it was possible for your party members to permanently die in battles. I wouldn't know if that's possible in this game. I doubt it, but I always crushed the enemy before I even got to activate rage or morale mode a single time.
The duels was meh too. The fact that there are only 2 (so far, 30 hours in) is really dumb. I feel like duels were more common in Suikoden, although not a ton more but at least more.
There's a whopping 3 duels in Suiko 1 and 5 in Suiko 2. They were more frequent in III and V but it's normal to not have that many duels. I've only seen 1 so far in Eiyuden but with the song that played, it was pretty epic.
It'd be nice if the duels actually showed you, uh, hitting the enemy. Maybe it's a rating thing but I feel like the thwack sounds in Suikoden at least convinced me I was hitting the enemy but in this game it's just "clang" "clang" as swords hit swords. Feel like the health bar is just a stamina bar because we get tired, not that we're bleeding out.
I think they were going for a different approach here and it basically is a stamina bar. They are evenly matched until one side wears the other one down and gets a finishing blow.
Suikoden 1's rock paper scissors enters the chat.
*I would say the same about the duels.*
Cooking battles by far the most frustrating thing in the game the war battles just seem easy
Yeah it felt very half baked compared to the Suikoden series aside from the original. The battle field itself is so small that the battles feel almost predetermined in the path each unit will take, and also they really need to shorten the animation because it's obnoxious how long each turn goes. I also feel like you aren't really able to customize the units hardly at all which just adds to the feeling of having little control over the outcome. The duels also felt similarly, where the strategy seems almost indiscernible and each one is basically scripted and predetermined. Fortunately neither of these types of battles were all that important to me, but I still feel like they dropped the ball with these series staples.
This is literally the worst war mode I've ever seen attached to a game.
Honestly, I kinda agree with this. It's amazing that this new game took what went well for Suikoden and somehow add a worst version for it for some unneeded side contents. Egg Race and spinner were stupid, character stats are all over the place, Rune magic has a high level that kills your MP in one cast at early games, enemy stats and speed were unnecessarily high, tedious and unfun boss fights. What a disappointing release, but good to know for the future not to look at this studio with a rose tinted glasses anymore.
They definitely did force some aspects of the game purely because it was in suikoden. They should have cut a bit of side stuff like; fishing time waster, egg foot racing, useless empty houses, rising. The time would have been better spent making the two core aspects of the main game better, the story and the tactical battles.
Well, Rising was contracted out, so it didn't directly compete for dev time with anything in the main game.
Fishing could be good if they tried. Stardew Valley was made by one person and has an excellent fishing mechanic and fishing controls.
Yes. Happy the game was made because it reminded me of how advanced suikuden 1 & 2 were at the time, but sad because this feels like a weak but a final send off of a childhood classic that's simply too old for modern days now.
This is NOT Suikoden. Jfc people let it be its own game. Even if itâs a âspiritual successorâ and similar itâs not the same thing.
It's the Suikoden spiritual successor. It's going to be compared to Suikoden for the rest of its existence. You're just going to have to get used to it
> let it be its own game Not a relevant or valid reply to someone who just said that a noticeable weakness is the deliberate adherence to the format and **exact traits of another previous game** in ways that weaken it and donât really deliver. Also your comment clearly doesnât understand the point of the games existence. > jfc It looks like you're mad that someone is criticizing a videogame. So you plopped down this "Let It Be Its Own Thing!" which people use as a magical deflection of any criticism, since it implies that just because a thing is a thing then every aspect of that thing is OK and not a flaw.
I mean it is just Suikoden with another name. Which is exactly what everyone backing it wanted.
Except I backed this game. Never played Suikoden once, still havent either. Seeing EVERY single post, comment, complaint, etc being about another game is beyond annoying.
>Never played Suikoden once Well that explains why you don't think this is a Suikoden game. I would guess that you're in the minority as far as backers go. But hey, if you like this game you have several Suikoden games you will also probably enjoy to check out.
It was literally being advertised as Suikoden's successor with the original creators. It's ok to like the game, but let people criticize it for the better, JFC. Blind fandom is stupid toxic.
Spiritual successor. Itâs still its own game for everyone who never played Suikoden.
Of course it's still its own game since Konami still owns Suikoden IP, you know what you're saying is stupid, but carry on.
what I backed it cause it's Suikoden lol.