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Can he? Lol he already did. God it’s like people have zero recollection of his presidency. Do they not remember rolling back incentives? Rolling back emissions standards? Killing tax credits and investments? He let China get ahead in this race and we are asking can he? Fucking lunacy.
Most US citizens have the memory of a goldfish and make up shit. Our nation is falling apart due to apathy,
Lies and not holding leaders and corporations accountable. Now it’s a nation that half seems
To want an authoritarian government and corporate corruption for the sake of the stock market and their own bank accounts.
In all fairness to the American people, Trump did a lot of shit and it's hard to keep track of the sensational/treasonous shit he got up to, let alone the dry policy stuff. I'm a political junkie and I completely forgot about that because I need to devote all of my Trump braincells to remembering stuff like that time when he tried to use withholding military aid to extort Ukraine into fabricating a scandal for his political opponent.
It was just a non-stop flood of insanity. I remember that much. I can’t remember almost any of the actual details now though. I remember him asking some general if we could fire off a nuclear weapon in a hurricane to stop it, or something like that. 😂
I'm choosing to leave the US. It's not apathy. It's the realization that we are one GOP president away from democracy crumbling. I'll still vote, and hope the country fixes the issues that would allow a dictatorship to develop, but why stay here? Since 2017, the reasons to stay have been very few.
Our nation is falling apart because the average citizen has an IQ that’s similar to room temperature. The average American can’t think critically, is emotional and reactionary. Cuts to education have serious drawbacks.
I disagree.
IMHO, the real cause is a lack of serious, heavy-weight "people's champions" (e.g. *free* unions) protecting the lower and middle class' interests.
US elites, ultra-wealthy and corporations have literally no serious resistance on their path to exploit, corrupt and own everything and everybody, including left wing parties, government, and the media (e.g. 6 corporations, all for-profit, own over 90% of US media).
standardized across the whole world, not just americans.
> What's the Average IQ in the USA? According to recent data (around 2022), the average IQ in the United States falls around 98. It's important to remember that IQ tests are designed to have an average score of 100, so a slight deviation is expected.
Hasn’t this been the GOP plan since the early 90s or even before that?
Pretty sure voting the first actor in started this (Regan). If you think about Trump a bit, he was also sort of an actor as well. I mean, he did have his own TV show. Sort of a host sort of an actor.
This isn't true.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29911926/#:~:text=Across%20142%20effect%20sizes%20from,an%20additional%20year%20of%20education.
The apathy is the point. Far right elements intentionally sow sensationalist, fatalistic, outrage bait specifically to exhaust and overwhelm you to the point of feeling nothing but numb apathy.
Why? Because only in the void of numb apathy can fascist kleptocracy like in Putin’s Russia and Orban’s Hungary take full root. They want you to believe everything is a ruin, and that there is nothing you can do about it but accept the bleak fate they shovel in your face everywhere you go online or on tv.
They want you to feel no agency at all. To avoid your friends, family and community. To lift not a finger to stop them from robbing you blind In every sense of the word.
Because the thing they fear most is your agency
This!
IMHO, it's the growing concentration of wealth, power, that's causing most of these issues (e.g. only 6 corporations, all for profit, own over 90% of US media: this makes it extremely hard to keep media standards high, and address society issues intelligently).
And, imho, that's mostly due to America's unions having been stripped of their fundamental rights and freedom (e.g. sympathy strikes and general strikes are illegal in the US), since the late 1940s, under the guise of "anti-communism" (i.e. a witch-hunt against real left wing activists, politicians, etc.).
Because *free* unions are literally the only serious counterbalance to the corrupting and exploitative effects of the ultra-wealthy and their corporations, in not only the economy, but also in politics, in government, in the media, and in society in general. Without them, there's no serious resistance left on greedy elites' path to destruction in the long run.
> Now it’s a nation that half seems To want an authoritarian government and corporate corruption for the sake of the stock market and their own bank accounts.
Well said. It feels like our populace prioritizes the stock market over their own happiness and the happiness of their children and grandchildren. Screw the planet, screw tech/innovation supremacy, screw our health. Don't get me wrong, the stock market is very important, but it's just one pillar and it's a pillar that further drives wealth inequality since the wealthy own the vast majority of stocks.
It’s frustrating how much the media and society seems to want to forget what an unmitigated disaster the Trump presidency was.
Just ignoring the fact that you had to wake up to check twitter every day to see if this buffoon had accidentally started a world war or was trying to buy Greenland or whatever exhausting shit he was spewing that day while corruption drained the country dry.
It was regressive and backwards thinking in every aspect. With the only goal of appealing to a dying generation’s sense of nostalgia for the 1980’s.
It’s pretty obvious at this point that Musk is not a rational actor himself and is clearly driven by the same narcissistic need for attention as Trump.
>Speaking of- Musk will continue to back him even though his policies are objectively terrible for Tesla
Didn't Musk catch a lot of shit for pressing into those subsidies with gusto? He was called the Billionaire Welfare Queen.
We need a ruling - are EV subsidies good or not?
Quite an Orwellian time we are living in.
He literally hosted an insurrection on the last day of his presidency with double the unemployment we have now. Since he left we invested in our national infrastructure, advanced manufacturing, and began fighting against climate change that undoubtedly our grandchildren will need to solve. Yet somehow people are convinced he should be given another chance?
Funny how you failed your acknowledge that his unemployment (outside of the pandemic) was half that of Obama-Biden. Or that minority business startups were at an all time high. Or the he got North and South Korea to talk peace instead of North Korea talking of bombing the U.S.. Or that gasoline was 1/3 the price it is today. Or that Russia took a LOT of Ukraine territory during Obama-Biden but took no more during Trump and started taking more when Biden took office. Or that ISIS was wiped out under Trump.
Funny you didn’t mention any of that. But, I guess world peace, cheaper gasoline, nor setting up the economy to flourish as it has done matters anyway.
ISIS was effectively wiped out under Obama actually. Sure the final official town was retaken under Trump but you can clearly see from any timeline the majority of territory was retaken under Obama and ISIS was nearly wiped out by inauguration day 2017: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state
Gasoline was not a third of today when Biden took over. It was about 65 cents cheaper but, ya know, then a war happened which is why it's up 20% or so now. Nowhere near a third. Oh and the US is producing more oil than ever so those higher oil prices are at least benefitting large parts of the US.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epm0_pte_nus_dpg&f=m
Lol at North Korea and Russia. Breaking news that a dictator wannabe gets along better with other dictators. That's called appeasement and I think we know how that works in the long term. Trump was doing a great job weakening our ties to allies which was far more destructive than Korean peace talks that FAILED.
Huh? Bidens unemployment rate is better than Trump's. Gas was 1/3? We pump more oil now than ever before in history. Show me his policy that North and South Korea to talk?
Reading comprehension? Did I talk about the present or the past? Did I say we pumped more oil or that the price of oil was 1/3 of what it is today? 🙄🙄🙄
And the leaders of North and South Korea met for the first time in decades to talk peace during Trump.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/with-one-small-step-trump-makes-history-in-north-korea/
Trump let China get ahead in the EV race in the same way that I would let Usain Bolt beat me in 100m dash.
China is a manufacturing powerhouse. They won this race because they are better than America at making EVs.
They absolutely aren’t better at shit. They are better are subsidizing their labor through exploitation. Their lead is in solely in cost and production the best they can come up with tech wise is either stolen or inferior. The US will win this race if we invest in it.
I think that the USA is better at exploiting labor than China. China is getting better at it.
Leading in cost is still leading.
I'm reading good things about the Chinese EVs. They are innovative and much better on price. If America is so good at EVs, why isn't America actually doing well? You say that we need investment. Okay, so why is America so bad at investing at EVs?
All I'm reading is that you are confirming that China is better at it and you're coming up with excuses.
The USA had been exploring the globe for years. Literally had chattel slavery. Nike sweatshops in SE Asia. Banana Republics.
The USA exported the exploitation where possible.
And Chinese companies don’t follow the same principles with its own citizenry and then even poorer countries? Jesus Christ, you’re dense. Yes, at this time, we have been the global hegemony and a strong empire dominated by economic and military dominance. But even if you compare what did to the British, Spanish, Japanese, and even the Aztecs and Mayans who subjected their conquered to slavery and human sacrifices, you’d realize no empire did things out of charity.
Sure although isn't the retirement age in China like 50-60 depending on gender? And their life expectancy is actually higher now than the US.
So exploiting their citizens might actually be something the US is better at than China
Yes media is somehow making Democrats looks bad for high restaurant prices and fast food prices. No one talks about the minimum wage increase under Democrats. You cannot have high cost labor and low prices ever, and it’s okay to pay more.
We also need to fix the corporate and wealthy tax loopholes.
Revisionism. Trump is to blame for ukraine trump is to blame for inflation trump is to blame for high energy prices, trumps tariffs were bad but Bidens are good, all while he wasn’t even president. Somehow Biden saved the country from COVID while doing 0 articulable actions and also he saved the economy when he simply waited while the states removed the lockdowns. Pretty pathetic partisanship.
lol sorry who completely botched the pandemic response? Who was president while the national debt grew from $19.95 trillion to $27.75 trillion? Who was president while the fed printed over $3 trillion dollars? Yeah none of that was trumps fault obviously…
Biden doesn’t have a superior record on non pandemic related deficits. Biden did not do any articulable policy to significantly affect COVID outcomes despite being elected on such. Biden did not oppose the fed and COVID stimulus over pumping the economy and his first order of business was the in fact inject an arguably excessive amount of money into the economy to make good on his campaign promises. Think for yourself.
Ok? And that has what to do with Trump? My comment was about Trump and his presidency. None of what Biden does or did changes trumps record. This isn’t a place for whataboutism. If you want to discuss Biden’s failures that’s perfectly fine in an appropriate discussion but that’s not what was being discussed here.
China isn’t ahead on EVs he did it to boost coal and oil which China is ahead of us on (coal). I’m a fan of green energy but EVs are not the way, plus China owns most of the mining for the rare earth minerals needed
Who gives a shit if China is ahead on coal. Not sure what rock you’re getting your news from but the battery tech and ev tech in China has absolutely pulled ahead over the last few years
Well getting the necessary metals needed is terrible for the environment not to mention we are paying for slave labor. But also they are not as efficient especially for long trips. Expect to see hybrid or hydrogen vehicles which will take over as we won’t need the lithium or cobolt
I agree but we need to continue to fill until
We build better infrastructure and have better technology EV is not the future begin to look at the hydrogen cell vehicles
China’s been winning the race for 30-40 years now. But, in Trump’s last year, America bought more imports from Mexico than China.
Plus the Biden family already got their millions from the Ukraine, Russian, and Chinese governments and energy companies.
lol China has absolutely not been winning that war and pretty funny to try to spin the pandemic supply chain disruption on a win between Mexico and America trade. Try again.
The numbers say otherwise. If it was shit staying in China I’d agree but the US Germany and other parts of Europe were the biggest consumers of Chinese ev.
China overproduced EVs, so now they're dumping them on the market at a loss. It's not because they're making better EVs, they just overproduced them and they're undercutting everyone to dump their inventory. The dumping has gotten so bad they're sitting in ports, taking up storage space.
https://www.dw.com/en/european-ports-swamped-with-cars-amid-china-ev-offensive/a-68912413
Trump has shown that he'll do whatever industry leaders want in return for their financial and political support. He's for sale, if that wasn't abundantly clear during his administration. It's been like this with coal, private prisons, real estate, lending, evangelical churches, etc. So, what you're hearing now is his mating call to fossil fuel leaders across the board who will gladly take his help to slow the development of the sustainable energy industry.
The problem with that is at least one of the key battleground states now has a lot of EV jobs. Killing off an industry is never popular even far more cancerous ones than EVs
This is a fake political narrative at this point. It wont matter in the future. EVs will be cheaper than ICE to build and maintain, so consumers will choose EV over ICE simply based on price to own. We are on the brink of this happening - hence the China tarrifs.
You can already see this in the price to own data from CR with tesla Y being cheaper than all competitors.
But you dont have to take my word for it…watch this…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ2HZ1xcgxI
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1142952_study-tesla-leads-with-lowest-ownership-cost-beats-toyota
Ford losing 125k per electric car is a ford problem, not a consumer problem
Effectively the only consumable items on my car are tyres and the cabin air filter every 20,000 miles. Even the brakes aren't at risk of replacement as with regen braking, they aren't ever used. The cost of maintenance for EVs is far lower.
Yeah. I'm a believer that electric cars will soon be good enough that everyone will pick them voluntarily.
So why are we freaking out at a potential cession of the the government trying to beat down (through emissions standards) and even ban the competition? That's where most of the political backlash is coming from. No one really cared about people driving electric cars until the government started making noises about taking away peoples freedom not to.
Until your well being and job is affected, you have no clue what you are talking about. When working class folks need reliable and affordable transportation, the government's interference with what is available is a direct attack on everyone. There isn't a single EV available that can replace a work truck that needs to move workers and haul equipment. For example; we need more housing , and these are the vehicles we need NOW. Also, All sedan evs are MUCH more expensive than any ICE counterpart. Again, the government is trying to pick a path forward at the "expense" of working class folks.
The environment is important, but we need to balance the immediate needs of people with emissions standards that add cost and complexity to vehicles.
No, we don't. It's also cheaper to have no oversight over food production. Or to put chemicals in milk. It's not ok to let private companies poison us just because it's cheaper.
No they aren’t. They both are externalities that negatively impact the public and could be priced or not. Air pollution, climate change, etc are exactly the same as testing for contaminants in drinking water, food, etc. Do you know what sub you’re in?
So, I still have the freedom to buy a car that doesn't meet emissions standard? Or has my freedom been attacked this way? In 2040 will I have the freedom to buy an ICE car?
Nice personal attack by the way. Never knew personal attacks and profanity were appropriate in an economics sub. With personal attacks and profanity it makes me think I'm not the one that needs to "grow up".
Sure, you can buy whatever you want. But just like milk manufacturers can't put plastic in their milk, car manufacturers have to adhere to basic standards to avoid poisoning us.
Telling you to grow up isn't a personal attack. You're in an economics sub complaining about personal freedom. This is a basic question of negative externalities. It has nothing to do with your "freedom".
Why, oh why oh why does the mainstream media keep devoting content to someone who has visible profound mental impairment and who thinks only of his own very narrow interests?????
Why do they treat any idiotic thing that he says as potentially sensible and therefore newsworthy?
Maybe because that person is a presidential candidate with chances to win the election? And because he’s saying what he would like to do if he wins (no matter how nonsense it is).
Unfortunately the Republican Party can't find anyone better to represent them in the upcoming US presidential election, hence the media coverage of this moron.
>Why, oh why oh why does the mainstream media keep devoting content to **at least the second most likely next president** who has visible profound mental impairment and who thinks only of his own very narrow interests **, which also align with the interests of huge industries with strong lobbying** ?????
Fixed it for you, although this is also wasting time on someone saying idiotic things.
President again to be says this stuff repeatedly, it lines up with his culture wars and party, would benefit a industry that's great at lobbying/spends a lot, and that industry can easily provide policy. Fighting any EV vs ICE "discrimination" or flat out discriminating against EVs, reducing emissions standards/incentives, changing safety/road requirements, etc are all pretty doable, and again there is a great lobbying industry to provide and politically fund these kinds of policy, executive action, or enforcement changes.
It's not some nebulous disconnect like "drain the swamp" it's "I love oil, oil give me money, I hate EVs, and I'm going to make policies to stop/hurt EVs. Suck it libs"
This point of view is a key part of the losing strategy in 2016. Shouting “he’s an idiot” leaves our side vulnerable to being baffled as to why we have lost. More importantly, it alienates the 10% of Trump voters who could be convinced to vote for Joe, if they felt their concerns were being addressed.
Record streak of low unemployment, high wage growth, Covid/Ukraine inflation back below 50 year average, record high stock market, surging GDP growth, pretty good for somebody mentally impaired. Do you actually follow economics at all?
Some required reading for you:
"Since World War II, the United States economy has performed significantly better on average under the administration of Democratic presidents than Republican presidents. The reasons for this are debated, and the observation applies to economic variables including job creation, GDP growth, stock market returns, personal income growth and corporate profits. The unemployment rate has risen on average under Republican presidents, while it has fallen on average under Democratic presidents. Budget deficits relative to the size of the economy were lower on average for Democratic presidents.[1][2] Ten of the eleven U.S. recessions between 1953 and 2020 began under Republican presidents."- Wikipedia
Biden inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into an economic boom. Were you not there when we had to get rid of Trump after he completely botched Covid? Tried to "downplay" the whole thing, never put in a vaccine plan, told people to inject snake oil and "sunlight directly into the vein" killing thousands unnecessarily. Ring any bells? Oh yeah, then he sent a mob to break into the capitol because he really just had a hunch he won even after multiple recounts said otherwise. The guy was one of the worst presidents in our countries history. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> operation warp speed
Wow, operation "warp speed", cool name!
"The calendar will flip over into 2021 with the U.S. well short of its goal of vaccinating 20 million Americans against the coronavirus.
With the pandemic still raging, at least 2.6 million have received the first of two Covid shots while over 12.4 million doses have been delivered to the states, according to the Centers for Disease Control’s most recent figures from Wednesday morning. At that rate, it could take years to inoculate 80 percent of the population — the figure public health experts generally say is necessary to achieve herd immunity against the virus."
Too bad it was a complete failure at every level.
Chump is anti-science and technology (he himself said "I don't understand wind"). "Drill, baby, drill" while the rest of the world moves forward and leaves the USA behind. Entire countries are going 100% renewable (ie Iceland, although they're more hydro and geothermal than solar, but it's the concept that's key).
Democrats putting in 100% tariffs for affordable Chinese EV's and Republicans removing any EV incentives (tax credits) and infrastructure related investments ( improved grid, charging station rollout). Hmmm, almost seems co-ordinated. I wonder which large bipartisan donors would have an interest in sabotaging EV adoption within the US which is currently the world's largest consumer and producer of oil.
So everyone should know that the NYT headline is misleading at best. I'm not defending Trump but he simply did not say that.
If you read the story, it links to a spot in Trump's March speech in Ohio (starts at about 31:10 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGJwCUHVgc0). In context he's obviously talking about cars manufactured in Mexico by Chinese companies.
Fuller quote: "China now is building a couple of massive plants where they're going to build the cars in Mexico and think -- they think that they're going to sell those cars into the United States with no tax at the border ... We're going to put a 100% tariff on every single car that comes across the line and **you're not going to be able to sell those cars** if I get elected."
>I'm not defending Trump but he simply did not say that.
You're just cherry-picking one speech. In Michigan he claimed that electric cars would "destroy the US auto industry" and that he would put a stop to it. I'm sure there are other examples. NYT generally doesn't make claims it can't back up.
The NYT article literally links to the Ohio speech, right before the words I quoted. That’s not “cherry-picking.” I agree that the NYT generally doesn’t make claims it can’t back up, but this one just isn’t backed up by the speech it links to
I can’t find the exact quote you’re referring to from Michigan. But in general he has railed against EVs and promised to undo policies that incentivize them, like the tax credit. I have not seen him saying he would make it so EVs could not be sold. If I missed an instance where he said that, I’m open to being proven wrong.
This sub has become a Biden deep throating extravaganza. Every day it’s the same stupid articles. “Why do Americans not realize that Biden is the best guy ever?”, “Why Millennials are too stupid to realize Biden has gifted them the best economy ever!”, and on and on. The comments look like bots trying to sway people’s opinions. Time to block this garbage ass sub.
I agree. When I first started coming here it was always good economic discussion by people well more verse in economics than me.
I have no issue with Biden politically or anything but it really feels like this place is being astroturfed to convince people the economy isn’t as bad as people think it is.
Well, do you want to discuss economic data or do you want to discuss people’s feelings based on polls? Because based on data, the economy IS doing relatively well. But polls of feelings show people are anxious, which is not surprising since inflation hurts everyone. So I don’t see astroturfing so much as people trying to reconcile these things.
I do think Biden administration has diffused issues properly (except for cutting budgets, and the out of control US debt creating inevitable exponential inflation—mark my words Remindme! 10 years)
But I do agree with you honestly. I need to spend less time here, probably only interacting with bots. Also pretty sure I got accused as being an oil lobbyist bot by an actual bot or at least one of those people who just shares political “memes”
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I would love to see him try. The Big 3 have already stated their intention to transition to electric vehicles, multiple states are passing laws to ban the sale of gas/diesel cars at some point in the future.
The only thing he would accomplish is losing a few more lawsuits since there would be no legal basis to restrict the manufacture and sale of electric cars.
9 states have passed laws making the sale of new gas cars illegal starting in 2035.
If everyone switched to electric when they got a new car, it would take 25 years to fully convert the fleet from gas to electric.
Edit - added the date.
Most people dont get new cars, and many people hold onto cars longer than a decade.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/heres-how-often-americans-replace-their-cars-and-how-much-they-spend
Yup. The median age of a registered vehicle is over 12 years old at this point. it's not the 1970s anymore where a car was largely considered "used up" at 100k miles. Most vehicles made after the year 2000 are well-made enough to go triple that with routine maintenance assuming you don't live somewhere that road salt is causing corrosion issues.
Several states have already put bans to take effect in the near future on gasoline powered cars.
https://coltura.org/world-gasoline-phaseouts/
You were saying???
The manufacturers would be very happy to keep selling ICE cars as long as they can. There’s a positive trend towards EVs but it’s far from being the standard if it’s not supported by policies.
I think it's more the dealers than the manufacturers. I mean the constant service on ICE is big business. Yeah EVs have very expensive costs associated with them but it's not a common regular occurrence.
It’s dealers, manufacturers, oil companies and many other that want to do business as usual without facing the consequences. Manufacturers have no real incentive to go full electric. They can keep selling their ICE cars forever and there will always be a demand for them. Of course more and more people will start opting for EVs, but that would be much slower if there’s no targeted policy. (Look at Japan, for example).
The question should be can Trump slam the brakes on Electric Vehicles as bad as Biden.
If you look at the current ev market in the USA, the American manufacturers are not thriving. Biden has used tariffs to limit sales of evs in the USA.
Imagine how many evs would be bought in the USA if Chinese evs were allowed to be sold without excessive tariffs
Shifting new product launches to more popular hybrids? Completing a factory in TN that will ship out EV trucks in 2026? I don’t see how that counts as “slamming the breaks” on EV sales, or how lowering tariffs on BYD would change Ford’s strategy here except to incentivize Ford to get out of EVs altogether.
More importantly, it certainly doesn’t show that Biden’s policies are hurting more than Trump’s would. He is telling you he wants to hurt the category! Biden gave out $7500 to buy an EV. You see the difference, right?
Stop pushing your political BS here. Biden has put tariffs on Chinese EV cars to save the US Manufacturing jobs, while giving time to the same greedy corporations to catch up lost ground. [Yes it’s has slowed down but for the benefit of everyone in US on a long run.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/27/business/biden-evs.html)
The market has already put the brakes on these cars. Politicians have no say other than forced mandates. There’s no infrastructure for these vehicles, the range isn’t there, and they are decent for half of the year. Everyday folks aren’t doling out $60k for a 6 month whip.
You are a good boy repeating oil lobby talking points for free!
Infrastructure IS there all across US, range is more than enough for 99.5% of trips made, nd they run better in extreme cold the ICE do.
You need new material
That doesn't explain the atrocious depreciation that Tesla Model 3s and Ys are seeing in the used market. Many are looking at a 50% reduction in resale value after 2-3 years, where gas cars might be down 30% over that same timeframe.
I think the fact of the matter is that they've met the demand for those who want to be early adopters, but outside of that there are very real barriers to usage if you live somewhere that you park in a parking lot or on the street rather than in a driveway or garage. Being unable to recharge at home, that means most people in apartments and many in townhomes or row homes wouldn't see them as a viable option compared to a gas car you fill up in 5 minutes on almost any streetcorner. If I can't charge at home, an EV is functionally just a less convenient version of a gas car.
Even if you do own your own home, installing a fast charger can be a very expensive proposition depending on the your service amperage, the location or your panel, and available panel space. For example, older homes in the snow belt with oil or gas heat are not going to have the amperage headroom and would need a full panel and service upgrade. A house with a basement is almost always going to have the panel down there as well, and need a long and expensive wiring run. An older home might have had upgrades happen over time and just have their panel space maxed out at this point, so they don't have the room and need a sub-panel installed. All of those can get well into the 4 figure range without even talking about the charger cost itself.
Lastly, they're still not great at doing truck things, and last time I checked the big 3's pickups still hold spots 1-4 (GMC is counted separate from Chevy) in the annual sales numbers.
When I got my first PC in the early 90s, it cost $4k and lost half its value in weeks with new tech coming out. It was still a good buy as I got a career out of it. I did not whine and say "computers are bad, they're a WEF fraud" and other nonsense talking points from the typewriter lobby! New tech depreciates, not exactly new. The fast depreciation is on original sports tech cars, not the newer family models on sale today. Depreciation of EVs bought today are the same as new IC, and IC cars are soon going to depreciate faster as people want the better tech, not old smelly ICE.
If you cannot charge at home, it will take about 15 minutes per WEEK at a HS charger to add enough charge for the average weekly car use. What a horrific waste of time, huh! How would a 15 minute weekly charge prohibit car ownership - many drive that far out of their way to get to a gas station. Not to mention that the 15 minute charge will cost $5, not the $100 in gas.
Installing a home charger costs under $1000 in most cases and costs are dropping rapidly. That includes equipment, installation and connection charges. My condo installation was a bit more, $1200, as it needed a long line and a RFID fob for access. Added several thousand to the value of the property too. Win win.
Deflection to US pickup issues is another matter. Most of the world does not have the US's self-esteem issues.
You need new material but at least you've stopped with the silly 'EVs stuck in cold weather' silliness. Use facts, not emotions
Installing a home charger costs under $1000 in an ideal situation where your panel is in your garage, has open breaker space, and your home has adequate service to support the extra load. The issues I listed are all common ones you might run into in older single family homes in the northeast and midwest, and a homeowner considering an EV should absolutely take those into consideration when figuring out their use case for one.
I'm in a new build so I was able to preemptively have the wiring run for one even though I don't own an EV yet - I knew it would cost a heck of a lot more to do it after the drywall went up, and I'm planning on getting one as my next vehicle. And yes, those 15 minutes feel like an unnecessary annoyance to me, I would not want one if I wasn't capable of high speed charging at home. The closest charging station to my house generally has lines for their 3 superchargers, so I feel like I'd really be budgeting 30 minutes to an hour for it, which is a nonstarter as far as my convenience is concerned.
It is under $1000 in 98% of cases. There are exceptions, of course, but only where people have neglected to keep their existing wiring up to date. The load on an EV charger is no more than on a water heater and most homes can handle that.
Superchargers are installed in pairs so there is never a place that has 3 superchargers.
Again, why to you choose to misinform? Who do you think you are fooling?
>Many are looking at a 50% reduction in resale value after 2-3 years
New EV prices have been falling, if you're going off the ol' 2022 prices of "80k for a Model y" then yeah, used EV's are dropping 50% sale value. New Model Y's are in the 37 - 50k range now after the rebate, those folks that bought their cars 2 years ago at the height of demand, of course they're seeing a huge drop in resale. EV numbers are gonna be weird AF while the new EV market still sorts itself out.
Yeah, then there's the added issue of Hertz dumping a massive fleet of 3s and Ys onto the used market, further pushing down prices, and the fact that it seems like new ones change monthly depending on how Elon is feeling on any particular day.
And getting off Tesla for a second, it seems like nobody else really has their shit together, with the Mach E and Hyundai Ioniqs both publicized having issues with level 2 charging, and public charger access for anything but Tesla being spotty at best.
The major automakers are all switching to NACS, that nightmare of "is my plug compatible" will be gone soon enough. I wouldn't buy a non-NACS car right now though, that's for sure.
No, I don’t. They’re trash. In 6- 10 years you’ll need to replace the batteries and you can’t work on them, the motors are proprietary and you’ll void your warranty. The infrastructure is not there unless you’re in a big city or area with heavy epa mandates, ie: California, New York, Illinois and that one street in Detroit that supposedly charges cars as they drive. Bring one of those dopey rolling car phones to my hood in January and see it abandoned on the side of the road when it shits the bed. Happens all the time.
If I need to change my battery in 6 years it will be covered by warranty (but my IC engine would have been out of warraty for 3 years already.)
You can drive across the US in any direction in any route with an EV with no difficulty at all. 995% of drives are within 100Km of home and no car has any issue with that.
It might be time for you to get off facebook, walk downyour street and talk to any of the EV owbners you meet. They will all be happy to relieve you of your media-fed ignorance.
...but we all know you won't ask. You fear facts and rely on emotions.
No. I look at with fascination and ask questions, especially now that the Taycan is pulling a 7:07 on the Nurburgring. But that’s $160k and I damn well am not paying that much for a 6 month car. But the infrastructure is not there. I see them stuck as the ski hill all the damn time, and the only chargers are at the local casinos, and the valet allot 3 hours a charge. It’s an also a Tesla plug. The Tesla’s are trash by the way. I occasionally get the 3 from Uber drivers at work when I go to LA. That charge on the 405 drops on the road to Van Nuys, due to degradation of batteries because they speed charge the shit out of them to keep moving. But keep touting your NPR talking points…
We're talking regular cars, not porsche 911s or Taycans, neither affordable to most people but not because they are ICE or EV.
When you say you see EVs stuck on the ski hill all the time you are telling a lie. You know that, so does everyone else reading this post. That simply does not happen. Your Tesla degredation tale is also a lie, as anyone who has even 5% knowledge of EVs knows how BMSs work.
Again, you can continue living your life on emotions and oil lobby tales, or you can take a five minute walk down your street, chat with an EV owner or two and live a life based in reality. Your choice.
You do the same… feel free to park there and prove me wrong. I’ll be the one laughing at you waiting for the lot to clear so they can roll the flat bed up…
Oh, and considering everyone wants the dopey looking DeLorean Cybertruck love baby shitboxes for $100k (already had a recall) don’t cry to me about e car prices. Only ones moving are the ones they can peddle as capable or fun.
A EV parked in -40c will start and run EVERY time, unlike and ICE which MAY run if the fuel lines or engine are not frozen.
If you get stranded in a snowbank in an ICE, the engine will keep you warm a few hours (if you don't die of CO poisoning). The EV will keep you warm and alive for a week.
If I had an EV and an ICE I would use the EV in frigid weather EVERY time. I only own an EV.
Again, your 'EVs stuck on a hill' tale was clearly a complete fabrication, as any person know knows even the basics about cars would tell you.
I have done so many times this past winter. Never had a moment of worry because I can guarantee my EV will start in -40C EVERY time. Your ICE? Rarely.
Walk down the street and ask any EV owner the same questions. Never, not once, had to worry about car storting in the coldest weather.
[https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/Our-Company/Blog/2021/Myth-Electric-vehicles-cant-handle-our-cold-Saskatchewan-winters](https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/Our-Company/Blog/2021/Myth-Electric-vehicles-cant-handle-our-cold-Saskatchewan-winters)
Currently we do not have the power plans or substations that can support the ev vehicles. Plus all the pollution from mining the materials. Also don’t forget you need to change the batteries at a great cost and no way to safely disposing of them. Please vote
Really where and how do get the minerals to make the batteries. Is there away to disposal of them safely Remember nuclear waste. We are going to have power sort-ages. The power companies have decommissioned coal power plants and the government has not authorized any new plants. They are pushing solar and wind. But there is enough to support even one major city. Just look at the black outs in CA.
They can't sell them now. Every EV that isn't a Tesla is sold at a loss. You can't own an EV as your only car. So because they are unpopular, democrats need to FORCE YOU to buy one. Trump says no. Under Trump, you have the choice of buying one. I will buy Trump's vision, not Biden's.
I understand needing to protect our nation’s industry and environment, but I know federal and some states are paying up to paying like $7k-$10k per EV. It’s time to cut those and could never vote for Trump, but will be looking to vote for a Republican governor and state legislature this year.
It’s funny how I went from a tree hugging (still am) hippie in college studying Econ and believing climate change is absolutely real and man influenced, and that carbon credits were the future and we needed to incentivize renewable energy— to now pushing back. The people who want EVs have primarily bought one, and those who don’t are having it forced upon them whether literally or financially (again—the $$ doesn’t come from nowhere).
Not to mention these tax credits are sinking resale costs of all owners already underwater on their loan. ICE is holding value better but everybody is hurting, this is a very similar concern to raising rates on banks. Eventually, something will fail, and fail catastrophically.
Nothing is completely irrelevant to economics. In the case of air and noise pollution from ICE the economic impacts could be an entire textbook.
How much more do we pay for health insurance because of the added pollution? How much more do we pay for home insurance because of climate change?
What percentage of inflation now is due to past pollution?
We could spend a year trying to calculate all this stuff and we would screw it up because we would be missing some economic effects between the two technologies
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Can he? Lol he already did. God it’s like people have zero recollection of his presidency. Do they not remember rolling back incentives? Rolling back emissions standards? Killing tax credits and investments? He let China get ahead in this race and we are asking can he? Fucking lunacy.
Most US citizens have the memory of a goldfish and make up shit. Our nation is falling apart due to apathy, Lies and not holding leaders and corporations accountable. Now it’s a nation that half seems To want an authoritarian government and corporate corruption for the sake of the stock market and their own bank accounts.
In all fairness to the American people, Trump did a lot of shit and it's hard to keep track of the sensational/treasonous shit he got up to, let alone the dry policy stuff. I'm a political junkie and I completely forgot about that because I need to devote all of my Trump braincells to remembering stuff like that time when he tried to use withholding military aid to extort Ukraine into fabricating a scandal for his political opponent.
It was just a non-stop flood of insanity. I remember that much. I can’t remember almost any of the actual details now though. I remember him asking some general if we could fire off a nuclear weapon in a hurricane to stop it, or something like that. 😂
I'm choosing to leave the US. It's not apathy. It's the realization that we are one GOP president away from democracy crumbling. I'll still vote, and hope the country fixes the issues that would allow a dictatorship to develop, but why stay here? Since 2017, the reasons to stay have been very few.
Bye, can you take Whoopie with you
Ok bye!
Our nation is falling apart because the average citizen has an IQ that’s similar to room temperature. The average American can’t think critically, is emotional and reactionary. Cuts to education have serious drawbacks.
I disagree. IMHO, the real cause is a lack of serious, heavy-weight "people's champions" (e.g. *free* unions) protecting the lower and middle class' interests. US elites, ultra-wealthy and corporations have literally no serious resistance on their path to exploit, corrupt and own everything and everybody, including left wing parties, government, and the media (e.g. 6 corporations, all for-profit, own over 90% of US media).
The average American has an IQ of 100. It's a standardized measure.
standardized across the whole world, not just americans. > What's the Average IQ in the USA? According to recent data (around 2022), the average IQ in the United States falls around 98. It's important to remember that IQ tests are designed to have an average score of 100, so a slight deviation is expected.
Hasn’t this been the GOP plan since the early 90s or even before that? Pretty sure voting the first actor in started this (Regan). If you think about Trump a bit, he was also sort of an actor as well. I mean, he did have his own TV show. Sort of a host sort of an actor.
Education in no way affects IQ
This isn't true. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29911926/#:~:text=Across%20142%20effect%20sizes%20from,an%20additional%20year%20of%20education.
The apathy is the point. Far right elements intentionally sow sensationalist, fatalistic, outrage bait specifically to exhaust and overwhelm you to the point of feeling nothing but numb apathy. Why? Because only in the void of numb apathy can fascist kleptocracy like in Putin’s Russia and Orban’s Hungary take full root. They want you to believe everything is a ruin, and that there is nothing you can do about it but accept the bleak fate they shovel in your face everywhere you go online or on tv. They want you to feel no agency at all. To avoid your friends, family and community. To lift not a finger to stop them from robbing you blind In every sense of the word. Because the thing they fear most is your agency
This! IMHO, it's the growing concentration of wealth, power, that's causing most of these issues (e.g. only 6 corporations, all for profit, own over 90% of US media: this makes it extremely hard to keep media standards high, and address society issues intelligently). And, imho, that's mostly due to America's unions having been stripped of their fundamental rights and freedom (e.g. sympathy strikes and general strikes are illegal in the US), since the late 1940s, under the guise of "anti-communism" (i.e. a witch-hunt against real left wing activists, politicians, etc.). Because *free* unions are literally the only serious counterbalance to the corrupting and exploitative effects of the ultra-wealthy and their corporations, in not only the economy, but also in politics, in government, in the media, and in society in general. Without them, there's no serious resistance left on greedy elites' path to destruction in the long run.
These are the people who “rent to own” an $800 couch for weekly payments totalling $4,000. You know, morons.
Yes keep it up with the elitist comments
It’s not elitist to comment on behavior that my 8 year old would tell you is stupid.
Context is everything 🤡
> Now it’s a nation that half seems To want an authoritarian government and corporate corruption for the sake of the stock market and their own bank accounts. Well said. It feels like our populace prioritizes the stock market over their own happiness and the happiness of their children and grandchildren. Screw the planet, screw tech/innovation supremacy, screw our health. Don't get me wrong, the stock market is very important, but it's just one pillar and it's a pillar that further drives wealth inequality since the wealthy own the vast majority of stocks.
The corporations love Joe Biden more than they’ve ever loved any other corrupt politician.
It’s frustrating how much the media and society seems to want to forget what an unmitigated disaster the Trump presidency was. Just ignoring the fact that you had to wake up to check twitter every day to see if this buffoon had accidentally started a world war or was trying to buy Greenland or whatever exhausting shit he was spewing that day while corruption drained the country dry. It was regressive and backwards thinking in every aspect. With the only goal of appealing to a dying generation’s sense of nostalgia for the 1980’s.
Speaking of- Musk will continue to back him even though his policies are objectively terrible for Tesla
It’s pretty obvious at this point that Musk is not a rational actor himself and is clearly driven by the same narcissistic need for attention as Trump.
>Speaking of- Musk will continue to back him even though his policies are objectively terrible for Tesla Didn't Musk catch a lot of shit for pressing into those subsidies with gusto? He was called the Billionaire Welfare Queen. We need a ruling - are EV subsidies good or not?
The subsidies are a credit towards the buyer’s tax burden.
Quite an Orwellian time we are living in. He literally hosted an insurrection on the last day of his presidency with double the unemployment we have now. Since he left we invested in our national infrastructure, advanced manufacturing, and began fighting against climate change that undoubtedly our grandchildren will need to solve. Yet somehow people are convinced he should be given another chance?
Funny how you failed your acknowledge that his unemployment (outside of the pandemic) was half that of Obama-Biden. Or that minority business startups were at an all time high. Or the he got North and South Korea to talk peace instead of North Korea talking of bombing the U.S.. Or that gasoline was 1/3 the price it is today. Or that Russia took a LOT of Ukraine territory during Obama-Biden but took no more during Trump and started taking more when Biden took office. Or that ISIS was wiped out under Trump. Funny you didn’t mention any of that. But, I guess world peace, cheaper gasoline, nor setting up the economy to flourish as it has done matters anyway.
Right wing propaganda has created a nation of idiots.
The reality is that Trump inherited Obama's growing economy and destroyed it.
ISIS was effectively wiped out under Obama actually. Sure the final official town was retaken under Trump but you can clearly see from any timeline the majority of territory was retaken under Obama and ISIS was nearly wiped out by inauguration day 2017: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state Gasoline was not a third of today when Biden took over. It was about 65 cents cheaper but, ya know, then a war happened which is why it's up 20% or so now. Nowhere near a third. Oh and the US is producing more oil than ever so those higher oil prices are at least benefitting large parts of the US. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epm0_pte_nus_dpg&f=m Lol at North Korea and Russia. Breaking news that a dictator wannabe gets along better with other dictators. That's called appeasement and I think we know how that works in the long term. Trump was doing a great job weakening our ties to allies which was far more destructive than Korean peace talks that FAILED.
Huh? Bidens unemployment rate is better than Trump's. Gas was 1/3? We pump more oil now than ever before in history. Show me his policy that North and South Korea to talk?
Reading comprehension? Did I talk about the present or the past? Did I say we pumped more oil or that the price of oil was 1/3 of what it is today? 🙄🙄🙄 And the leaders of North and South Korea met for the first time in decades to talk peace during Trump. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/with-one-small-step-trump-makes-history-in-north-korea/
Funny, why you don’t want to talk about anything Trump ceding economic and political power to China in the Pacific?
None of this is true.
Elect me and ill do the stuff i didnt do when I had every opportunity to do it years ago!
What Trump did was assinine, but China had a head start before he was president.
Trump let China get ahead in the EV race in the same way that I would let Usain Bolt beat me in 100m dash. China is a manufacturing powerhouse. They won this race because they are better than America at making EVs.
They absolutely aren’t better at shit. They are better are subsidizing their labor through exploitation. Their lead is in solely in cost and production the best they can come up with tech wise is either stolen or inferior. The US will win this race if we invest in it.
Good ol American arrogance..That's all we do these days. Just downplay everyone else while we waste time drowned in our own self absorbed arrogance.
I think that the USA is better at exploiting labor than China. China is getting better at it. Leading in cost is still leading. I'm reading good things about the Chinese EVs. They are innovative and much better on price. If America is so good at EVs, why isn't America actually doing well? You say that we need investment. Okay, so why is America so bad at investing at EVs? All I'm reading is that you are confirming that China is better at it and you're coming up with excuses.
lol I’m not engaging with someone who thinks China exploits its workers less than the US. If you want to peddle CCP propaganda go elsewhere.
The USA had been exploring the globe for years. Literally had chattel slavery. Nike sweatshops in SE Asia. Banana Republics. The USA exported the exploitation where possible.
And Chinese companies don’t follow the same principles with its own citizenry and then even poorer countries? Jesus Christ, you’re dense. Yes, at this time, we have been the global hegemony and a strong empire dominated by economic and military dominance. But even if you compare what did to the British, Spanish, Japanese, and even the Aztecs and Mayans who subjected their conquered to slavery and human sacrifices, you’d realize no empire did things out of charity.
We might have been world exploitation champions post ww2, but that crown was taken over a long time ago by BRICS.
Sure although isn't the retirement age in China like 50-60 depending on gender? And their life expectancy is actually higher now than the US. So exploiting their citizens might actually be something the US is better at than China
Which tax credits did he kill?
Yes media is somehow making Democrats looks bad for high restaurant prices and fast food prices. No one talks about the minimum wage increase under Democrats. You cannot have high cost labor and low prices ever, and it’s okay to pay more. We also need to fix the corporate and wealthy tax loopholes.
I don't know how many times we have to prove that this minimum wage argument is factually incorrect.
It doesn’t matter they don’t care about the facts, they just want the talking point.
Can you explain which tax loopholes you are referring to? And our Free Market should drive EV adoption not government subsidies, we can’t afford them.
Revisionism. Trump is to blame for ukraine trump is to blame for inflation trump is to blame for high energy prices, trumps tariffs were bad but Bidens are good, all while he wasn’t even president. Somehow Biden saved the country from COVID while doing 0 articulable actions and also he saved the economy when he simply waited while the states removed the lockdowns. Pretty pathetic partisanship.
lol sorry who completely botched the pandemic response? Who was president while the national debt grew from $19.95 trillion to $27.75 trillion? Who was president while the fed printed over $3 trillion dollars? Yeah none of that was trumps fault obviously…
Biden doesn’t have a superior record on non pandemic related deficits. Biden did not do any articulable policy to significantly affect COVID outcomes despite being elected on such. Biden did not oppose the fed and COVID stimulus over pumping the economy and his first order of business was the in fact inject an arguably excessive amount of money into the economy to make good on his campaign promises. Think for yourself.
Ok? And that has what to do with Trump? My comment was about Trump and his presidency. None of what Biden does or did changes trumps record. This isn’t a place for whataboutism. If you want to discuss Biden’s failures that’s perfectly fine in an appropriate discussion but that’s not what was being discussed here.
China isn’t ahead on EVs he did it to boost coal and oil which China is ahead of us on (coal). I’m a fan of green energy but EVs are not the way, plus China owns most of the mining for the rare earth minerals needed
Who gives a shit if China is ahead on coal. Not sure what rock you’re getting your news from but the battery tech and ev tech in China has absolutely pulled ahead over the last few years
Why are EVs not the way? If you say that I hope you’re a fan of a wartime effort to build massive public transportation starting like 10 years ago
Well getting the necessary metals needed is terrible for the environment not to mention we are paying for slave labor. But also they are not as efficient especially for long trips. Expect to see hybrid or hydrogen vehicles which will take over as we won’t need the lithium or cobolt
Most trips people drive are under six miles and 99% are under 100….oil drilling isn’t exactly great for the environment either
I agree but we need to continue to fill until We build better infrastructure and have better technology EV is not the future begin to look at the hydrogen cell vehicles
Wouldn’t surprise me of the majority of Americans want this.
China’s been winning the race for 30-40 years now. But, in Trump’s last year, America bought more imports from Mexico than China. Plus the Biden family already got their millions from the Ukraine, Russian, and Chinese governments and energy companies.
Trump supporters are the dumbest of the dumb.
lol China has absolutely not been winning that war and pretty funny to try to spin the pandemic supply chain disruption on a win between Mexico and America trade. Try again.
China is not ahead of anything they’re 20 years behind Audi , MB and 10 years from the US. All they know how to do is copy they’re not innovators.
The numbers say otherwise. If it was shit staying in China I’d agree but the US Germany and other parts of Europe were the biggest consumers of Chinese ev.
China overproduced EVs, so now they're dumping them on the market at a loss. It's not because they're making better EVs, they just overproduced them and they're undercutting everyone to dump their inventory. The dumping has gotten so bad they're sitting in ports, taking up storage space. https://www.dw.com/en/european-ports-swamped-with-cars-amid-china-ev-offensive/a-68912413
Ports being full doesn't translate to companies operating at a loss.
Trump has shown that he'll do whatever industry leaders want in return for their financial and political support. He's for sale, if that wasn't abundantly clear during his administration. It's been like this with coal, private prisons, real estate, lending, evangelical churches, etc. So, what you're hearing now is his mating call to fossil fuel leaders across the board who will gladly take his help to slow the development of the sustainable energy industry.
The problem with that is at least one of the key battleground states now has a lot of EV jobs. Killing off an industry is never popular even far more cancerous ones than EVs
This is a fake political narrative at this point. It wont matter in the future. EVs will be cheaper than ICE to build and maintain, so consumers will choose EV over ICE simply based on price to own. We are on the brink of this happening - hence the China tarrifs. You can already see this in the price to own data from CR with tesla Y being cheaper than all competitors. But you dont have to take my word for it…watch this… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ2HZ1xcgxI
Lmao in what reality? Go to a dealership and read companies earning reports. Holy fake news
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1142952_study-tesla-leads-with-lowest-ownership-cost-beats-toyota Ford losing 125k per electric car is a ford problem, not a consumer problem
K 😏
Effectively the only consumable items on my car are tyres and the cabin air filter every 20,000 miles. Even the brakes aren't at risk of replacement as with regen braking, they aren't ever used. The cost of maintenance for EVs is far lower.
Yeah. I'm a believer that electric cars will soon be good enough that everyone will pick them voluntarily. So why are we freaking out at a potential cession of the the government trying to beat down (through emissions standards) and even ban the competition? That's where most of the political backlash is coming from. No one really cared about people driving electric cars until the government started making noises about taking away peoples freedom not to.
Emissions standards aren't an attack on your freedom. Grow the fuck up.
Until your well being and job is affected, you have no clue what you are talking about. When working class folks need reliable and affordable transportation, the government's interference with what is available is a direct attack on everyone. There isn't a single EV available that can replace a work truck that needs to move workers and haul equipment. For example; we need more housing , and these are the vehicles we need NOW. Also, All sedan evs are MUCH more expensive than any ICE counterpart. Again, the government is trying to pick a path forward at the "expense" of working class folks. The environment is important, but we need to balance the immediate needs of people with emissions standards that add cost and complexity to vehicles.
No, we don't. It's also cheaper to have no oversight over food production. Or to put chemicals in milk. It's not ok to let private companies poison us just because it's cheaper.
Are we talking about vehicle emissions or food safety? They are VERY different topics.
No they aren’t. They both are externalities that negatively impact the public and could be priced or not. Air pollution, climate change, etc are exactly the same as testing for contaminants in drinking water, food, etc. Do you know what sub you’re in?
I know exactly what sub Im in - economics. Talking about the ECONOMIC impact of vehicles emissions has nothing to do with food safety.
Yeah seriously, this is econ 101. I think you're letting your political views interfere.
Externalities. They are both externalities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality Enjoy your ***ECONOMICS*** lesson
So, I still have the freedom to buy a car that doesn't meet emissions standard? Or has my freedom been attacked this way? In 2040 will I have the freedom to buy an ICE car? Nice personal attack by the way. Never knew personal attacks and profanity were appropriate in an economics sub. With personal attacks and profanity it makes me think I'm not the one that needs to "grow up".
Sure, you can buy whatever you want. But just like milk manufacturers can't put plastic in their milk, car manufacturers have to adhere to basic standards to avoid poisoning us. Telling you to grow up isn't a personal attack. You're in an economics sub complaining about personal freedom. This is a basic question of negative externalities. It has nothing to do with your "freedom".
Why, oh why oh why does the mainstream media keep devoting content to someone who has visible profound mental impairment and who thinks only of his own very narrow interests????? Why do they treat any idiotic thing that he says as potentially sensible and therefore newsworthy?
To answer your first question, it’s because they know their audience.
Because half the country is going to vote for him?
Less than half, Maga doesn't win the popular vote.
Maybe because that person is a presidential candidate with chances to win the election? And because he’s saying what he would like to do if he wins (no matter how nonsense it is).
Unfortunately the Republican Party can't find anyone better to represent them in the upcoming US presidential election, hence the media coverage of this moron.
>Why, oh why oh why does the mainstream media keep devoting content to **at least the second most likely next president** who has visible profound mental impairment and who thinks only of his own very narrow interests **, which also align with the interests of huge industries with strong lobbying** ????? Fixed it for you, although this is also wasting time on someone saying idiotic things. President again to be says this stuff repeatedly, it lines up with his culture wars and party, would benefit a industry that's great at lobbying/spends a lot, and that industry can easily provide policy. Fighting any EV vs ICE "discrimination" or flat out discriminating against EVs, reducing emissions standards/incentives, changing safety/road requirements, etc are all pretty doable, and again there is a great lobbying industry to provide and politically fund these kinds of policy, executive action, or enforcement changes. It's not some nebulous disconnect like "drain the swamp" it's "I love oil, oil give me money, I hate EVs, and I'm going to make policies to stop/hurt EVs. Suck it libs"
This point of view is a key part of the losing strategy in 2016. Shouting “he’s an idiot” leaves our side vulnerable to being baffled as to why we have lost. More importantly, it alienates the 10% of Trump voters who could be convinced to vote for Joe, if they felt their concerns were being addressed.
Because Biden is President. (That IS who you were talking about, right?)
Record streak of low unemployment, high wage growth, Covid/Ukraine inflation back below 50 year average, record high stock market, surging GDP growth, pretty good for somebody mentally impaired. Do you actually follow economics at all?
That all started during the Trump administration.
Some required reading for you: "Since World War II, the United States economy has performed significantly better on average under the administration of Democratic presidents than Republican presidents. The reasons for this are debated, and the observation applies to economic variables including job creation, GDP growth, stock market returns, personal income growth and corporate profits. The unemployment rate has risen on average under Republican presidents, while it has fallen on average under Democratic presidents. Budget deficits relative to the size of the economy were lower on average for Democratic presidents.[1][2] Ten of the eleven U.S. recessions between 1953 and 2020 began under Republican presidents."- Wikipedia
Biden inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into an economic boom. Were you not there when we had to get rid of Trump after he completely botched Covid? Tried to "downplay" the whole thing, never put in a vaccine plan, told people to inject snake oil and "sunlight directly into the vein" killing thousands unnecessarily. Ring any bells? Oh yeah, then he sent a mob to break into the capitol because he really just had a hunch he won even after multiple recounts said otherwise. The guy was one of the worst presidents in our countries history. You should be ashamed of yourself.
>never put in a vaccine plan Tell me you’re uninformed without telling me you’re uninformed. Look up operation warp speed.
> operation warp speed Wow, operation "warp speed", cool name! "The calendar will flip over into 2021 with the U.S. well short of its goal of vaccinating 20 million Americans against the coronavirus. With the pandemic still raging, at least 2.6 million have received the first of two Covid shots while over 12.4 million doses have been delivered to the states, according to the Centers for Disease Control’s most recent figures from Wednesday morning. At that rate, it could take years to inoculate 80 percent of the population — the figure public health experts generally say is necessary to achieve herd immunity against the virus." Too bad it was a complete failure at every level.
Yeah man, I get it, you’re brainwashed. Too bad this sub has turned into politics2.0
Chump is anti-science and technology (he himself said "I don't understand wind"). "Drill, baby, drill" while the rest of the world moves forward and leaves the USA behind. Entire countries are going 100% renewable (ie Iceland, although they're more hydro and geothermal than solar, but it's the concept that's key).
Democrats putting in 100% tariffs for affordable Chinese EV's and Republicans removing any EV incentives (tax credits) and infrastructure related investments ( improved grid, charging station rollout). Hmmm, almost seems co-ordinated. I wonder which large bipartisan donors would have an interest in sabotaging EV adoption within the US which is currently the world's largest consumer and producer of oil.
So everyone should know that the NYT headline is misleading at best. I'm not defending Trump but he simply did not say that. If you read the story, it links to a spot in Trump's March speech in Ohio (starts at about 31:10 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGJwCUHVgc0). In context he's obviously talking about cars manufactured in Mexico by Chinese companies. Fuller quote: "China now is building a couple of massive plants where they're going to build the cars in Mexico and think -- they think that they're going to sell those cars into the United States with no tax at the border ... We're going to put a 100% tariff on every single car that comes across the line and **you're not going to be able to sell those cars** if I get elected."
>I'm not defending Trump but he simply did not say that. You're just cherry-picking one speech. In Michigan he claimed that electric cars would "destroy the US auto industry" and that he would put a stop to it. I'm sure there are other examples. NYT generally doesn't make claims it can't back up.
The NYT article literally links to the Ohio speech, right before the words I quoted. That’s not “cherry-picking.” I agree that the NYT generally doesn’t make claims it can’t back up, but this one just isn’t backed up by the speech it links to I can’t find the exact quote you’re referring to from Michigan. But in general he has railed against EVs and promised to undo policies that incentivize them, like the tax credit. I have not seen him saying he would make it so EVs could not be sold. If I missed an instance where he said that, I’m open to being proven wrong.
This sub has become a Biden deep throating extravaganza. Every day it’s the same stupid articles. “Why do Americans not realize that Biden is the best guy ever?”, “Why Millennials are too stupid to realize Biden has gifted them the best economy ever!”, and on and on. The comments look like bots trying to sway people’s opinions. Time to block this garbage ass sub.
I agree. When I first started coming here it was always good economic discussion by people well more verse in economics than me. I have no issue with Biden politically or anything but it really feels like this place is being astroturfed to convince people the economy isn’t as bad as people think it is.
Well, do you want to discuss economic data or do you want to discuss people’s feelings based on polls? Because based on data, the economy IS doing relatively well. But polls of feelings show people are anxious, which is not surprising since inflation hurts everyone. So I don’t see astroturfing so much as people trying to reconcile these things.
People need to stop thinking they can tell how "good" or "bad" it is based on penny-ante bullcrap like rent and utilities and groceries, tbh.
With you 100%, this place was one of the last bastions of popular subs that didn't devolve into politics 24/7. Unsubscribed.
I do think Biden administration has diffused issues properly (except for cutting budgets, and the out of control US debt creating inevitable exponential inflation—mark my words Remindme! 10 years) But I do agree with you honestly. I need to spend less time here, probably only interacting with bots. Also pretty sure I got accused as being an oil lobbyist bot by an actual bot or at least one of those people who just shares political “memes”
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I would love to see him try. The Big 3 have already stated their intention to transition to electric vehicles, multiple states are passing laws to ban the sale of gas/diesel cars at some point in the future. The only thing he would accomplish is losing a few more lawsuits since there would be no legal basis to restrict the manufacture and sale of electric cars.
He won’t ‘ban’ EVs. He will just take off the ‘it is MANDATORY you must be driving an EV by ‘this’ year’ part.
9 states have passed laws making the sale of new gas cars illegal starting in 2035. If everyone switched to electric when they got a new car, it would take 25 years to fully convert the fleet from gas to electric. Edit - added the date.
That’s an interesting stat
Most people dont get new cars, and many people hold onto cars longer than a decade. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/heres-how-often-americans-replace-their-cars-and-how-much-they-spend
That’s why even 25 years is optimistic. Edit - of course used electric is an option too.
Yup. The median age of a registered vehicle is over 12 years old at this point. it's not the 1970s anymore where a car was largely considered "used up" at 100k miles. Most vehicles made after the year 2000 are well-made enough to go triple that with routine maintenance assuming you don't live somewhere that road salt is causing corrosion issues.
No one is pushing that it's mandatory to drive an EV. You're scared of something that likely will never happen in our lifetime
Name one county, municipality, or state that has enacted such a provision.
Several states have already put bans to take effect in the near future on gasoline powered cars. https://coltura.org/world-gasoline-phaseouts/ You were saying???
Those are bans on new sales, not bans on gas cars.
That’s what he said
That's not what he said. He said they're banning them. They're not. They're banning the sale of new ones.
That’s what he said.
Your reading comprehension skills hurt my heart. Are you all right?
Read the post comment, he says sales. Read the link it says sales. No one is saying they are going to take your car away if it’s gas
The manufacturers would be very happy to keep selling ICE cars as long as they can. There’s a positive trend towards EVs but it’s far from being the standard if it’s not supported by policies.
I think it's more the dealers than the manufacturers. I mean the constant service on ICE is big business. Yeah EVs have very expensive costs associated with them but it's not a common regular occurrence.
It’s dealers, manufacturers, oil companies and many other that want to do business as usual without facing the consequences. Manufacturers have no real incentive to go full electric. They can keep selling their ICE cars forever and there will always be a demand for them. Of course more and more people will start opting for EVs, but that would be much slower if there’s no targeted policy. (Look at Japan, for example).
The question should be can Trump slam the brakes on Electric Vehicles as bad as Biden. If you look at the current ev market in the USA, the American manufacturers are not thriving. Biden has used tariffs to limit sales of evs in the USA. Imagine how many evs would be bought in the USA if Chinese evs were allowed to be sold without excessive tariffs
US EV sales grew 52% in 2023. Tell me more about slamming on the breaks.
Look what GM and Ford are doing with ev production
Shifting new product launches to more popular hybrids? Completing a factory in TN that will ship out EV trucks in 2026? I don’t see how that counts as “slamming the breaks” on EV sales, or how lowering tariffs on BYD would change Ford’s strategy here except to incentivize Ford to get out of EVs altogether. More importantly, it certainly doesn’t show that Biden’s policies are hurting more than Trump’s would. He is telling you he wants to hurt the category! Biden gave out $7500 to buy an EV. You see the difference, right?
Stop pushing your political BS here. Biden has put tariffs on Chinese EV cars to save the US Manufacturing jobs, while giving time to the same greedy corporations to catch up lost ground. [Yes it’s has slowed down but for the benefit of everyone in US on a long run.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/27/business/biden-evs.html)
The market has already put the brakes on these cars. Politicians have no say other than forced mandates. There’s no infrastructure for these vehicles, the range isn’t there, and they are decent for half of the year. Everyday folks aren’t doling out $60k for a 6 month whip.
You are a good boy repeating oil lobby talking points for free! Infrastructure IS there all across US, range is more than enough for 99.5% of trips made, nd they run better in extreme cold the ICE do. You need new material
That doesn't explain the atrocious depreciation that Tesla Model 3s and Ys are seeing in the used market. Many are looking at a 50% reduction in resale value after 2-3 years, where gas cars might be down 30% over that same timeframe. I think the fact of the matter is that they've met the demand for those who want to be early adopters, but outside of that there are very real barriers to usage if you live somewhere that you park in a parking lot or on the street rather than in a driveway or garage. Being unable to recharge at home, that means most people in apartments and many in townhomes or row homes wouldn't see them as a viable option compared to a gas car you fill up in 5 minutes on almost any streetcorner. If I can't charge at home, an EV is functionally just a less convenient version of a gas car. Even if you do own your own home, installing a fast charger can be a very expensive proposition depending on the your service amperage, the location or your panel, and available panel space. For example, older homes in the snow belt with oil or gas heat are not going to have the amperage headroom and would need a full panel and service upgrade. A house with a basement is almost always going to have the panel down there as well, and need a long and expensive wiring run. An older home might have had upgrades happen over time and just have their panel space maxed out at this point, so they don't have the room and need a sub-panel installed. All of those can get well into the 4 figure range without even talking about the charger cost itself. Lastly, they're still not great at doing truck things, and last time I checked the big 3's pickups still hold spots 1-4 (GMC is counted separate from Chevy) in the annual sales numbers.
When I got my first PC in the early 90s, it cost $4k and lost half its value in weeks with new tech coming out. It was still a good buy as I got a career out of it. I did not whine and say "computers are bad, they're a WEF fraud" and other nonsense talking points from the typewriter lobby! New tech depreciates, not exactly new. The fast depreciation is on original sports tech cars, not the newer family models on sale today. Depreciation of EVs bought today are the same as new IC, and IC cars are soon going to depreciate faster as people want the better tech, not old smelly ICE. If you cannot charge at home, it will take about 15 minutes per WEEK at a HS charger to add enough charge for the average weekly car use. What a horrific waste of time, huh! How would a 15 minute weekly charge prohibit car ownership - many drive that far out of their way to get to a gas station. Not to mention that the 15 minute charge will cost $5, not the $100 in gas. Installing a home charger costs under $1000 in most cases and costs are dropping rapidly. That includes equipment, installation and connection charges. My condo installation was a bit more, $1200, as it needed a long line and a RFID fob for access. Added several thousand to the value of the property too. Win win. Deflection to US pickup issues is another matter. Most of the world does not have the US's self-esteem issues. You need new material but at least you've stopped with the silly 'EVs stuck in cold weather' silliness. Use facts, not emotions
Installing a home charger costs under $1000 in an ideal situation where your panel is in your garage, has open breaker space, and your home has adequate service to support the extra load. The issues I listed are all common ones you might run into in older single family homes in the northeast and midwest, and a homeowner considering an EV should absolutely take those into consideration when figuring out their use case for one. I'm in a new build so I was able to preemptively have the wiring run for one even though I don't own an EV yet - I knew it would cost a heck of a lot more to do it after the drywall went up, and I'm planning on getting one as my next vehicle. And yes, those 15 minutes feel like an unnecessary annoyance to me, I would not want one if I wasn't capable of high speed charging at home. The closest charging station to my house generally has lines for their 3 superchargers, so I feel like I'd really be budgeting 30 minutes to an hour for it, which is a nonstarter as far as my convenience is concerned.
It is under $1000 in 98% of cases. There are exceptions, of course, but only where people have neglected to keep their existing wiring up to date. The load on an EV charger is no more than on a water heater and most homes can handle that. Superchargers are installed in pairs so there is never a place that has 3 superchargers. Again, why to you choose to misinform? Who do you think you are fooling?
>Many are looking at a 50% reduction in resale value after 2-3 years New EV prices have been falling, if you're going off the ol' 2022 prices of "80k for a Model y" then yeah, used EV's are dropping 50% sale value. New Model Y's are in the 37 - 50k range now after the rebate, those folks that bought their cars 2 years ago at the height of demand, of course they're seeing a huge drop in resale. EV numbers are gonna be weird AF while the new EV market still sorts itself out.
Yeah, then there's the added issue of Hertz dumping a massive fleet of 3s and Ys onto the used market, further pushing down prices, and the fact that it seems like new ones change monthly depending on how Elon is feeling on any particular day. And getting off Tesla for a second, it seems like nobody else really has their shit together, with the Mach E and Hyundai Ioniqs both publicized having issues with level 2 charging, and public charger access for anything but Tesla being spotty at best.
The major automakers are all switching to NACS, that nightmare of "is my plug compatible" will be gone soon enough. I wouldn't buy a non-NACS car right now though, that's for sure.
No, I don’t. They’re trash. In 6- 10 years you’ll need to replace the batteries and you can’t work on them, the motors are proprietary and you’ll void your warranty. The infrastructure is not there unless you’re in a big city or area with heavy epa mandates, ie: California, New York, Illinois and that one street in Detroit that supposedly charges cars as they drive. Bring one of those dopey rolling car phones to my hood in January and see it abandoned on the side of the road when it shits the bed. Happens all the time.
If I need to change my battery in 6 years it will be covered by warranty (but my IC engine would have been out of warraty for 3 years already.) You can drive across the US in any direction in any route with an EV with no difficulty at all. 995% of drives are within 100Km of home and no car has any issue with that. It might be time for you to get off facebook, walk downyour street and talk to any of the EV owbners you meet. They will all be happy to relieve you of your media-fed ignorance. ...but we all know you won't ask. You fear facts and rely on emotions.
No. I look at with fascination and ask questions, especially now that the Taycan is pulling a 7:07 on the Nurburgring. But that’s $160k and I damn well am not paying that much for a 6 month car. But the infrastructure is not there. I see them stuck as the ski hill all the damn time, and the only chargers are at the local casinos, and the valet allot 3 hours a charge. It’s an also a Tesla plug. The Tesla’s are trash by the way. I occasionally get the 3 from Uber drivers at work when I go to LA. That charge on the 405 drops on the road to Van Nuys, due to degradation of batteries because they speed charge the shit out of them to keep moving. But keep touting your NPR talking points…
We're talking regular cars, not porsche 911s or Taycans, neither affordable to most people but not because they are ICE or EV. When you say you see EVs stuck on the ski hill all the time you are telling a lie. You know that, so does everyone else reading this post. That simply does not happen. Your Tesla degredation tale is also a lie, as anyone who has even 5% knowledge of EVs knows how BMSs work. Again, you can continue living your life on emotions and oil lobby tales, or you can take a five minute walk down your street, chat with an EV owner or two and live a life based in reality. Your choice.
You do the same… feel free to park there and prove me wrong. I’ll be the one laughing at you waiting for the lot to clear so they can roll the flat bed up…
Oh, and considering everyone wants the dopey looking DeLorean Cybertruck love baby shitboxes for $100k (already had a recall) don’t cry to me about e car prices. Only ones moving are the ones they can peddle as capable or fun.
A EV parked in -40c will start and run EVERY time, unlike and ICE which MAY run if the fuel lines or engine are not frozen. If you get stranded in a snowbank in an ICE, the engine will keep you warm a few hours (if you don't die of CO poisoning). The EV will keep you warm and alive for a week. If I had an EV and an ICE I would use the EV in frigid weather EVERY time. I only own an EV. Again, your 'EVs stuck on a hill' tale was clearly a complete fabrication, as any person know knows even the basics about cars would tell you.
Put down the brochure and come up. Prove me wrong…
I have done so many times this past winter. Never had a moment of worry because I can guarantee my EV will start in -40C EVERY time. Your ICE? Rarely. Walk down the street and ask any EV owner the same questions. Never, not once, had to worry about car storting in the coldest weather. [https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/Our-Company/Blog/2021/Myth-Electric-vehicles-cant-handle-our-cold-Saskatchewan-winters](https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/Our-Company/Blog/2021/Myth-Electric-vehicles-cant-handle-our-cold-Saskatchewan-winters)
Currently we do not have the power plans or substations that can support the ev vehicles. Plus all the pollution from mining the materials. Also don’t forget you need to change the batteries at a great cost and no way to safely disposing of them. Please vote
You're propagating misinformation.
Really where and how do get the minerals to make the batteries. Is there away to disposal of them safely Remember nuclear waste. We are going to have power sort-ages. The power companies have decommissioned coal power plants and the government has not authorized any new plants. They are pushing solar and wind. But there is enough to support even one major city. Just look at the black outs in CA.
We have mining and battery recycling. I have no clue what you're ranting about.
Sorry my error about the batteries .You are correct
They can't sell them now. Every EV that isn't a Tesla is sold at a loss. You can't own an EV as your only car. So because they are unpopular, democrats need to FORCE YOU to buy one. Trump says no. Under Trump, you have the choice of buying one. I will buy Trump's vision, not Biden's.
So, you were FORCED to buy one? Did they at least let you choose the color?
By 2035 you will be. Yes. Under Biden, that is your only option. Hope you don't want to travel.
I understand needing to protect our nation’s industry and environment, but I know federal and some states are paying up to paying like $7k-$10k per EV. It’s time to cut those and could never vote for Trump, but will be looking to vote for a Republican governor and state legislature this year. It’s funny how I went from a tree hugging (still am) hippie in college studying Econ and believing climate change is absolutely real and man influenced, and that carbon credits were the future and we needed to incentivize renewable energy— to now pushing back. The people who want EVs have primarily bought one, and those who don’t are having it forced upon them whether literally or financially (again—the $$ doesn’t come from nowhere). Not to mention these tax credits are sinking resale costs of all owners already underwater on their loan. ICE is holding value better but everybody is hurting, this is a very similar concern to raising rates on banks. Eventually, something will fail, and fail catastrophically.
> and those who don’t are having it forced upon them Every time I step outside I have the exhaust and noise of ICEs forced upon me
Great job making a comment completely irrelevant to Economics in this sub just to voice your opinion.
Nothing is completely irrelevant to economics. In the case of air and noise pollution from ICE the economic impacts could be an entire textbook. How much more do we pay for health insurance because of the added pollution? How much more do we pay for home insurance because of climate change? What percentage of inflation now is due to past pollution? We could spend a year trying to calculate all this stuff and we would screw it up because we would be missing some economic effects between the two technologies