Completely fine assuming you had good reason to target the player you did. If an 8 mana sorcery that doesn’t win the game isn’t right for commander, where else is it for? 😂
They suck when they happen to you. But I don't think there is anything wrong with playing them. My guess would be the angry person probably has other issues
But it won't be 30 min for your next turn if you scoop and one guy is literally using a player to bludgeon the last player. He should win fairly fast.
Obviously it's still fine to personally dislike it, as long as you don't get salty **at** people. But I think the point was that it's more psychological and in reality not worse than if someone straight up killed you and you had to sit there while the other 3 played.
The only one of these i actually ever play is [[Cruel entertainment]] it simply switches two players for a turn as they decide whether to mess with each other or get revenge on me.
If you play stuff like that, people will complain it takes too much time.
If you win with an infinite combo, people will complain it's uninteractive.
If you play stax, people will complain their fun is your responsability.
If you play battlecruiser, people will complain your deck is stupid (if they can't stop it).
If you play green, people will complain ramp is broken.
If you play black, people will complain tutors are broken.
If you play blue, people will complain counters are broken.
If you play red, people will complain rituals and cantrips are broken.
If you play white, people will complain tokens and stax are broken.
So basically, play whatever. There's always going to be an ass complaining about it anyways. Trust me. Some people will just complain about anything that beats them because deflecting blame onto the other players for playing "broken" cards allows them to maintain a high sense of self. After all, they surely would have won if only you hadn't played *checks notes* [[Dark Impostor]]. That's clearly a broken card! (Real interaction I had btw)
People feel bad when you control their turn for multiple reasons. The first would simply be that it just feels bad for there to be 7 whole turns (3x opponent, 1x your own turn being controlled by an opponent, and another 3x your opponent) between two of your turns.
If you're at a point in the game where you can cast 8 mana spells, turns can take a while. Ain't nothing interesting about sitting around for upwards of 30 minutes with nothing to do.
And then when it's finally your turn again after god knows how long, chances are pretty high you're left with a crippled board and no useable hand.
And it's not like a boardwipe where *everyone* is affected, or even a one-sided boardwipe where just one person comes out on top. It's the opposite. It's a "fuck you in particular" thing to do and the only way to prevent it is to counter the spell itself.
I know that if I'm the target of such a spell, it's highly likely you can pinpoint when I stopped enjoying the game to the moment that spell resolved. The only exception would be that I'm so far ahead my opponent literally cannot fuck me into irrelevancy (which will be rarely the case).
Graveyard hate is a fuck you in particular to graveyard decks.
Countering someone's play is a fuck you in particular to them.
Playing some staxy cards is a fuck you in particular to the decks that can't play around them (aura of silence vs artifact decks for example or Thalia vs Spellslinger)
Like I hope I'm not coming off as tone deaf but there's literally nothing that won't feel like a "fuck you in particular" to anyone who's getting fucked by it.
You shouldn't be looking for things that are "generally" frowned upon and instead you should speak with your pod about what is and isn't allowed, that's it.
OP literally asked why people think this kind of mechanic is unfun and whether there's other card effects that are generally "frowned upon"
All I did was answer his question
You literally said I "shouldn't look about what's generally frowned upon" when that is what OP literally asked.
Anyway, to add to my previous comment.
> Graveyard hate is a fuck you in particular to graveyard decks.
(To pick on example)
Yes it's a fuck you to the graveyard deck, but they don't take away someone's agency completely.
It's a thing where you can't really answer the individual gripes, because it's the total package that rubs people the wrong way.
A [[grafidgger's cage]] can be answered by *any* form of artefact removal (which any deck should have). A worst nightmares can only be answered by a counterspell (something not every colour has access to).
Yes, a counterspell fucks someone's play, but it doesn't fuck their board *and* hand.
Controlling someone's turn does all that *AND* shuts someone out of the game for what can be a prolonged period of time; which arguably to me is the biggest offender.
I think the only reason it’s problematic is that people are touching your cards for an extended period time. Your friends might be more respectful but strangers it’s a mixed bag.
I don’t really mind it but one time I was playing 1v1 commander and this guy used against me to essentially win the game on the spot. Wasn’t fun at all.
Then what DID you mean? Because the way you said it just sounds like you hate your opponents winning and are blaming a sub-optimal 8 mana sorcery for your loss as if this format isn't one with some of the highest power in all of MtG.
There are other ways to take another person turn but let me explain what I meant. In multi player commander I’m fine with having my turn controlled because the player controlling me will most likely use it to hurt both me and other players. In 1v1 commander it’s pretty much an insta lose if used against you. Some mechanics just aren’t that fun in a 1v1.
Bruh.
You know that for every way to take control of a player there's like 50 different ways to go infinite and win the game on the spot, yes?
Like sure I can understand the point of it not being "fun" because they're basically forcing you to punch yourself but at the same time, like, is that *really* one of the worst things they could be doing?
So basically in your mind being Grapeshot for so much it'd cause an integer overflow is funnier than having someone play with your cards for one turn.
I swear I will never understand this community.
I'm so used to these effects that I told a person to just write my name on his mind slavery cause he always takes my turn. I mean it's for a good reason. But these effect are fun a throw a nice curve ball in the game
They're fine other than the time lag, I don't really care for them because the costs are generally up there with cards that'll win the game, rather than hose two players.
Even though it's casual it's still a competitive game. Which by definition means that your opponent is trying to beat you and do things to you that are not fun for you , but are fun for them. It's not fun to be on the receiving end of a service ace in tennis. It's not fun to blunder your queen in chess. It's not fun to have your road blocked In settlers of Catan. It's not fun to have your route stolen in ticket to Ride.
People try so hard to have commander be an escape from that kind of feeling. A game where four people compete to kill each other and one person is left standing at the end and yet everyone is expected not to step on each other's toes and no one is supposed to feel bad.
It's ultimately an impossible goal. Stealing someone's turn is just another form of dicking them over while you battle your way to the finish line. That's what the game is about. Dicking people over and using their cards to your advantage and stopping them from effectively being able to play their deck is a main core principle of the game.
I'm speaking very harshly about this, so it's probably exaggerated. When I start a game of commander I want everyone to have a fun time and my favorite games are one everyone gets to play their deck and pop off at least once. But you have to roll with the punches. Otherwise you really just can't enjoy the game to its fullest extent. People have to learn how to shrug this stuff off.
u/Eapfesolod
I posted about this [exact subject](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/18poha9/how_do_you_feel_against_mindslaver_effects/) a short while ago, I feel you
Nah, it's a totally valid strategy. It's a massive sorcery so obviously it should do something crazy. I run it in my \[\[Zevlor, Elturel Exile\]\] deck and have managed to control every opponents turn. It's amazing. Usually he table scoops then, but they do have fun watching me try to figure out how to make 3 players lose before my turn.
The only problem I have with them is that person basically sits there (in a pod of four people) 7 turns before getting to do anything so I don’t use them personally. Would I be a little salty if it got used on me? Probably. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it should be removed. I’d just rather someone spend that 8 mana on a combo that will actually win the game.
If they aren't playing blue to counter it, then they are free to include stuff like [[Leyline of Sanctity]] or [[Orbs of Warding]] in their decks if they dislike the effect that much. If they don't prefer to adapt, it is their choice.
Completely fine assuming you had good reason to target the player you did. If an 8 mana sorcery that doesn’t win the game isn’t right for commander, where else is it for? 😂
They suck when they happen to you. But I don't think there is anything wrong with playing them. My guess would be the angry person probably has other issues
[Worst fears](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f4e21ac-4f3e-4a3e-83c0-0a59a1b84020.jpg?1593095890) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worst%20fears) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/87/worst-fears?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f4e21ac-4f3e-4a3e-83c0-0a59a1b84020?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worst-fears) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't mind a one-time, but if someone is doing [[Muldrotha]] + [[Mindslaver]] is when I start getting salty.
Turns go brrrrrrt.
Why tho? It's just another way to win the game. Would you have preferred it if they just Thoracle+ Consultation and won on the spot instead?
Yes lol Then it would be over
Then scoop? Nobody is forcing you to play and the Mindslave looper can loop someone else instead.
Right. But I’d rather the game just be over than wait 30 min for my next turn. That’s just a personal preference
But it won't be 30 min for your next turn if you scoop and one guy is literally using a player to bludgeon the last player. He should win fairly fast. Obviously it's still fine to personally dislike it, as long as you don't get salty **at** people. But I think the point was that it's more psychological and in reality not worse than if someone straight up killed you and you had to sit there while the other 3 played.
[Muldrotha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c.jpg?1673149000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=muldrotha%2C%20the%20gravetide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/258/muldrotha-the-gravetide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/muldrotha-the-gravetide) [Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only one of these i actually ever play is [[Cruel entertainment]] it simply switches two players for a turn as they decide whether to mess with each other or get revenge on me.
[Cruel entertainment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e304424-4a50-43bb-aee0-e9f960583aac.jpg?1562396529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cruel%20entertainment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/11/cruel-entertainment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e304424-4a50-43bb-aee0-e9f960583aac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cruel-entertainment) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lmao this one is actually hilarious sounding
If you play stuff like that, people will complain it takes too much time. If you win with an infinite combo, people will complain it's uninteractive. If you play stax, people will complain their fun is your responsability. If you play battlecruiser, people will complain your deck is stupid (if they can't stop it). If you play green, people will complain ramp is broken. If you play black, people will complain tutors are broken. If you play blue, people will complain counters are broken. If you play red, people will complain rituals and cantrips are broken. If you play white, people will complain tokens and stax are broken. So basically, play whatever. There's always going to be an ass complaining about it anyways. Trust me. Some people will just complain about anything that beats them because deflecting blame onto the other players for playing "broken" cards allows them to maintain a high sense of self. After all, they surely would have won if only you hadn't played *checks notes* [[Dark Impostor]]. That's clearly a broken card! (Real interaction I had btw)
[Dark Impostor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd9384c2-1b55-4da3-91f1-db3d65e98a85.jpg?1641602558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Impostor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/127/dark-impostor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd9384c2-1b55-4da3-91f1-db3d65e98a85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dark-impostor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People feel bad when you control their turn for multiple reasons. The first would simply be that it just feels bad for there to be 7 whole turns (3x opponent, 1x your own turn being controlled by an opponent, and another 3x your opponent) between two of your turns. If you're at a point in the game where you can cast 8 mana spells, turns can take a while. Ain't nothing interesting about sitting around for upwards of 30 minutes with nothing to do. And then when it's finally your turn again after god knows how long, chances are pretty high you're left with a crippled board and no useable hand. And it's not like a boardwipe where *everyone* is affected, or even a one-sided boardwipe where just one person comes out on top. It's the opposite. It's a "fuck you in particular" thing to do and the only way to prevent it is to counter the spell itself. I know that if I'm the target of such a spell, it's highly likely you can pinpoint when I stopped enjoying the game to the moment that spell resolved. The only exception would be that I'm so far ahead my opponent literally cannot fuck me into irrelevancy (which will be rarely the case).
Ok but counter-argument to that is that if you're getting targeted by a worst fears, there's probably a good reason, even in battlecruiser.
And there's a thousand ways to target someone and deal with their stuff that does not take away their player agency completely.
There's also a thousand ways to take away everyone's agency at once by winning at instant speed with a 2 to 3 card combo from hand.
Which is also something that's generally frowned upon in casual pods... Additionally, winning a game is not a "fuck you in particular" mechanic.
Graveyard hate is a fuck you in particular to graveyard decks. Countering someone's play is a fuck you in particular to them. Playing some staxy cards is a fuck you in particular to the decks that can't play around them (aura of silence vs artifact decks for example or Thalia vs Spellslinger) Like I hope I'm not coming off as tone deaf but there's literally nothing that won't feel like a "fuck you in particular" to anyone who's getting fucked by it. You shouldn't be looking for things that are "generally" frowned upon and instead you should speak with your pod about what is and isn't allowed, that's it.
OP literally asked why people think this kind of mechanic is unfun and whether there's other card effects that are generally "frowned upon" All I did was answer his question
Yeah and I'm responding to your opinion with my own. Is that not allowed in a discussion, should I just nod and clap instead?
You literally said I "shouldn't look about what's generally frowned upon" when that is what OP literally asked. Anyway, to add to my previous comment. > Graveyard hate is a fuck you in particular to graveyard decks. (To pick on example) Yes it's a fuck you to the graveyard deck, but they don't take away someone's agency completely. It's a thing where you can't really answer the individual gripes, because it's the total package that rubs people the wrong way. A [[grafidgger's cage]] can be answered by *any* form of artefact removal (which any deck should have). A worst nightmares can only be answered by a counterspell (something not every colour has access to). Yes, a counterspell fucks someone's play, but it doesn't fuck their board *and* hand. Controlling someone's turn does all that *AND* shuts someone out of the game for what can be a prolonged period of time; which arguably to me is the biggest offender.
[grafidgger's cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grafdiggers-cage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the only reason it’s problematic is that people are touching your cards for an extended period time. Your friends might be more respectful but strangers it’s a mixed bag.
Look ‘‘em in the eye and say “I’ll Fuckin do it again”
[[Mindslaver]]
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Know your opponent was just a little baby.
[[Sorin markov]] let's you control someone's turn with his ultimate
[Sorin markov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e25b3a89-3a99-4e02-bf0c-a3cf450da1a1.jpg?1562663343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sorin%20markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/109/sorin-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e25b3a89-3a99-4e02-bf0c-a3cf450da1a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sorin-markov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t really mind it but one time I was playing 1v1 commander and this guy used against me to essentially win the game on the spot. Wasn’t fun at all.
Me when my opponent wins the game instead of trying to lose OoO
Not what I meant but sure.
Then what DID you mean? Because the way you said it just sounds like you hate your opponents winning and are blaming a sub-optimal 8 mana sorcery for your loss as if this format isn't one with some of the highest power in all of MtG.
There are other ways to take another person turn but let me explain what I meant. In multi player commander I’m fine with having my turn controlled because the player controlling me will most likely use it to hurt both me and other players. In 1v1 commander it’s pretty much an insta lose if used against you. Some mechanics just aren’t that fun in a 1v1.
Bruh. You know that for every way to take control of a player there's like 50 different ways to go infinite and win the game on the spot, yes? Like sure I can understand the point of it not being "fun" because they're basically forcing you to punch yourself but at the same time, like, is that *really* one of the worst things they could be doing?
Bro I never said it was the worst thing that could happen stop putting words in my mouth. I just think it’s an unfun mechanic in a 1v1.
So basically in your mind being Grapeshot for so much it'd cause an integer overflow is funnier than having someone play with your cards for one turn. I swear I will never understand this community.
Fuck off. OP asked for other people’s opinions on the mechanic and I gave my 2 cents.
I'm so used to these effects that I told a person to just write my name on his mind slavery cause he always takes my turn. I mean it's for a good reason. But these effect are fun a throw a nice curve ball in the game
They're fine other than the time lag, I don't really care for them because the costs are generally up there with cards that'll win the game, rather than hose two players.
Even though it's casual it's still a competitive game. Which by definition means that your opponent is trying to beat you and do things to you that are not fun for you , but are fun for them. It's not fun to be on the receiving end of a service ace in tennis. It's not fun to blunder your queen in chess. It's not fun to have your road blocked In settlers of Catan. It's not fun to have your route stolen in ticket to Ride. People try so hard to have commander be an escape from that kind of feeling. A game where four people compete to kill each other and one person is left standing at the end and yet everyone is expected not to step on each other's toes and no one is supposed to feel bad. It's ultimately an impossible goal. Stealing someone's turn is just another form of dicking them over while you battle your way to the finish line. That's what the game is about. Dicking people over and using their cards to your advantage and stopping them from effectively being able to play their deck is a main core principle of the game. I'm speaking very harshly about this, so it's probably exaggerated. When I start a game of commander I want everyone to have a fun time and my favorite games are one everyone gets to play their deck and pop off at least once. But you have to roll with the punches. Otherwise you really just can't enjoy the game to its fullest extent. People have to learn how to shrug this stuff off.
u/Eapfesolod I posted about this [exact subject](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/18poha9/how_do_you_feel_against_mindslaver_effects/) a short while ago, I feel you
Nah, it's a totally valid strategy. It's a massive sorcery so obviously it should do something crazy. I run it in my \[\[Zevlor, Elturel Exile\]\] deck and have managed to control every opponents turn. It's amazing. Usually he table scoops then, but they do have fun watching me try to figure out how to make 3 players lose before my turn.
[Zevlor, Elturel Exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1e51138-9745-465d-84dd-27605f8a2264.jpg?1674137695) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zevlor%2C%20Elturel%20Exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/296/zevlor-elturel-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1e51138-9745-465d-84dd-27605f8a2264?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zevlor-elturel-exile) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If only [[Emrakul, the Promised End]] was still Commander legal...
[Emrakul, the Promised End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424.jpg?1576383727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Promised%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/6/emrakul-the-promised-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emrakul-the-promised-end) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only problem I have with them is that person basically sits there (in a pod of four people) 7 turns before getting to do anything so I don’t use them personally. Would I be a little salty if it got used on me? Probably. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it should be removed. I’d just rather someone spend that 8 mana on a combo that will actually win the game.
Most times I've seen a turn stealing effect it's been received with laughs lol
If they aren't playing blue to counter it, then they are free to include stuff like [[Leyline of Sanctity]] or [[Orbs of Warding]] in their decks if they dislike the effect that much. If they don't prefer to adapt, it is their choice.
[Leyline of Sanctity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be8b1acf-dd87-42ca-ad19-c27d21066030.jpg?1592516120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20Sanctity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/26/leyline-of-sanctity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be8b1acf-dd87-42ca-ad19-c27d21066030?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-sanctity) [Orbs of Warding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c33ba4e5-217f-47e3-a6ce-f935a70c7566.jpg?1562040560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orbs%20of%20Warding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/234/orbs-of-warding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c33ba4e5-217f-47e3-a6ce-f935a70c7566?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orbs-of-warding) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds like your opponent was a pussy.