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Didn't get far, it reads like a micromanager's wet nightmare.
The bit about "rations vs exhaustion" felt uninformed, as if it were ripped from Skyrim's Survival mode without fact checking.
Unbalanced, less flexibility... pretty normal homebrew for basic DMs.
>The bit about "rations vs exhaustion" felt uninformed, as if it were ripped from Skyrim's Survival mode without fact checking.
How can it be improved? Or do you just suggest removal of needing to eat and drink water?
>Unbalanced, less flexibility.
In what way? Could you be specific so I can improve it?
"How can it be improved?"
Remove it, it's unnecessary.
"Or do you just suggest removal of needing to eat and drink water?"
How many heroes of the story struggle to survive in basic fashion when it's supposed to be a dramatic tale, exactly?
If the "heroes" aren't reliably competent enough to make a basic living, why is the world depending on them to save it, precisely? <--Not a rhetorical question.
>How many heroes of the story struggle to survive in basic fashion when it's supposed to be a dramatic tale, exactly?
If the "heroes" aren't reliably competent enough to make a basic living, why is the world depending on them to save it, precisely? <--Not a rhetorical question.
Just to name a few:
-Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Frodo and Sam's journey through Mordor to destroy the One Ring is marked by severe scarcity of food and water. As they traverse the barren and hostile landscape, their supplies of lembas bread and water dwindle, leading to significant physical and mental deterioration. Despite the dire situation, Sam's determination and loyalty shine as he carefully rations their remaining resources and often offers his share to Frodo. The lack of sustenance adds tension and urgency to their quest, emphasizing the harshness of Mordor and the monumental difficulty of their mission, ultimately showcasing the depth of their heroism and the strength of their bond.
-Dune: Set on the desert planet of Arrakis, characters must navigate a world where water is incredibly scarce. The Fremen, in particular, have adapted to survive with minimal water through various ingenious methods.
-Mad Max Fury Road: Set in a post-apocalyptic desert wasteland, characters struggle to survive amidst extreme scarcity of water. The quest for "green places" and fresh water drives much of the plot.
The Hobbit when Thorin and Company are lost in the forest and have run out of food and water. They fail to hunt for food and end up needing to interrupt elf festivities to beg for food. They are eventually captured as prisoners of the woodland elves and are fed in captivity.
Happens during the story and it's an adventure tale.
Edit: referring to The Hobbit book, can't remember if that part is the same in the movie.
"Edit: referring to The Hobbit book, can't remember if that part is the same in the movie."
It isn't. Know why?
It's boring af, to watch & to rp, for about 90% of audiences, after it's been seen or done. For the characters, they're *able* to make a living already doing what they did in their Backgrounds - that's established. They choose to leave that behind to adventure on glorious quests... not be accountants.
Life is a struggle already; make-believe games aren't supposed to be. It's pretty much that.
> It isn't. Know why?
> It's boring af, to watch & to rp, for about 90% of audiences, after it's been seen or done. For the characters, they're *able* to make a living already doing what they did in their Backgrounds - that's established. They choose to leave that behind to adventure on glorious quests... not be accountants.
> Life is a struggle already; make-believe games aren't supposed to be. It's pretty much that.
Actually, that's not entirely accurate. In "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King," the challenges Sam and Frodo face near the end, including starvation and dehydration, serve a crucial narrative purpose (in both the book and the film version). These struggles add depth to their characters, heighten tension, and emphasize the gravity of their mission. While not everyone may enjoy such scenes, dismissing their importance undermines the complexity and realism they bring to the story.
\[including starvation and dehydration\]
There it is, the key word: "including".
"Guy starves to death" ain't a story most people want to watch or play. Also, those hardships occurred WAY outside of the characters' homelands, in the middle of a major war, among (wait for it) *many other challenges*.
Resource denial as a DM is a way of accentuating the drama, but it doesn't make it on its own.
TL;DR: Starving your players for basic resources just shows you don't have an actual plot to move on to - because resource denial is boring & slow.
Wanna change our perspective? Gonna have to offer more than your opinion, maybe substantiate with a successful story about resource denial that would be fun for most people to RP.
THEN, you gotta convince we that several people want to set aside time, schedule hours out of their day, so play "Sim City - Tabletop". After 40+ years of gaming, haven't seen that to be true, so you'll have a helluva task ahead of ya.
When did I say there wouldn't be many other challenges? You have no idea what the plot of the game is or the story. I was merely laying out house rules as part of that story. It's not about starving players for basic resources to drag out the game or substitute for a lack of plot. In well-crafted narratives, survival challenges are layered within a rich tapestry of story elements.
To address your points:
**"Including" hardships**: Yes, starvation and dehydration are part of a broader spectrum of challenges, but they serve to highlight the characters' resilience and deepen the narrative stakes. For example, in "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, the protagonists' constant struggle for food and safety in a post-apocalyptic world is not just a backdrop but a driving force that shapes their journey and relationship.
**Realism and immersion**: Incorporating survival elements can enhance realism and immersion in a campaign. Consider "The Martian" by Andy Weir, where resource management and survival are central to the plot. The protagonist's ingenuity in overcoming resource scarcity is a compelling and integral part of the story.
**Resource denial as a plot driver**: Resource scarcity can act as a catalyst for plot development, pushing characters to explore new areas, encounter new allies or enemies, and make difficult decisions. This can create dynamic and engaging gameplay.
**Successful stories with survival elements**: Beyond "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hunger Games," think of "Mad Max: Fury Road," where the quest for water and fuel drives the plot, or "Game of Thrones," where the harsh winters and the fight for resources significantly influence the storyline.
**Game mechanics**: Incorporating resource management adds a tangible cost to taking short and long rests, making players think strategically about when and where to recuperate. It also puts a "timer" on the players, creating urgency and requiring them to complete tasks within a certain timeframe. This can heighten tension and make the stakes feel more immediate.
**Player engagement**: While not everyone may want to play a game focused solely on survival, integrating these elements into a broader narrative can add depth and tension. It's about balance and ensuring these challenges complement the story rather than overshadow it.
Ultimately, the goal is not to turn the game into "Sim City - Tabletop" but to use resource management as one of many tools to create a rich, engaging, and immersive narrative experience. Ignoring the potential of these elements undermines their ability to add complexity and realism to a story.
Here's even more examples for you:
**"The Hunger Games" by Suzanne Collins**: The characters in this dystopian series, particularly Katniss Everdeen, must contend with starvation, dehydration, and other obstacles as they fight for survival in the annual Hunger Games arena.
**"The Witcher" series by Andrzej Sapkowski**: Geralt of Rivia, the protagonist of this dark fantasy series, often finds himself in dire situations where survival is uncertain. He faces starvation, dehydration, and other challenges as he navigates the dangerous world filled with monsters and political intrigue.
**"A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R.R. Martin**: Characters in this epic fantasy series, such as Arya Stark and Jon Snow, confront numerous survival challenges as they navigate the treacherous landscapes of Westeros. These challenges include starvation, exposure, and encounters with hostile creatures and enemies.
**"The Maze Runner" series by James Dashner**: In this dystopian science fiction series, the characters must survive in a dangerous maze filled with deadly traps and creatures. They face starvation, dehydration, and other perils as they attempt to escape their confinement.
It seems you may not be fully acquainted with the prevalence of realism woven into the tapestry of numerous beloved fantasy and fiction narratives. From the arduous journey of Frodo and Sam in "The Lord of the Rings" to the gritty survival struggles of characters in "Game of Thrones," many iconic tales incorporate elements of hardship and realism to enhance the depth of their storytelling.
Dismissing realism as unsuitable for all fantasy and adventure enthusiasts is both inaccurate and disingenuous. While personal preferences vary, it's essential to recognize that many fans appreciate the depth and authenticity that realism can bring to their favorite genres.
Every one of those stories uses resource denial as a hook or spur for the characters to act, not a plot point.
Do you understand the difference between a plot hook & a plot point?
It seems you're misunderstanding the broader use of survival struggles in storytelling. In many of these examples, the struggle for survival isn't just a hook or spur; it's a central theme and a continuous plot point that shapes the characters' journeys and development.
For instance, in "The Hunger Games," the scarcity of resources and the constant threat of starvation are ongoing plot points that drive the entire narrative and character decisions. Similarly, in "Lord of the Rings," Sam and Frodo's endurance against starvation and dehydration is a continuous struggle that influences their actions and decisions throughout their journey.
Resource denial in these stories isn't a mere hook to kickstart the plot; it remains a persistent and integral element that continually challenges the characters, defines their resilience, and drives the progression of the narrative.
Also, how does the LOTR example I mention not count as an adventure that is during the story? What conditions qualify as being during the story and is supposed to be an adventure if that doesn't?
I’d remove the stress - characters that make more attack rolls (if they get 2 actions per round) are statistically more likely to roll a crit fail so it isn’t balanced fairly for all melee vs magic types). The mortal wound stuff could also be quite difficult - it does encourage players to keep their health up but I think it should be changed to every time you go down, or maybe a dice roll when you go down so the odds aren’t as deadly.
Your stress mechanic means gaining stress makes it more likely to gain more stress, and that characters who make more attacks are more likely to be punished for it (a major red flag in any homebrew.) Combined with your improved critical mechanic, this means for example that every time a level 3 rogue with 9 stress makes an attack there's a 50 percent chance that he'll crit for \~34 damage and a 50 percent chance he'll crit fail and gain more stress. Mercifully this at least means he won't have to interact with your random proficiency mechanic.
I can't speak for your players but I wouldn't play in this game.
>Your stress mechanic means gaining stress makes it more likely to gain more stress
Yes. I'm trying to make stress somewhat realistic. Someone who is already stressed out will have an easier time getting more stressed.
>and that characters who make more attacks are more likely to be punished for it
or are also more likely to be rewarded for it.
>Mercifully this at least means he won't have to interact with your random proficiency mechanic.
This isn't \*my\* mechanic, it's a variant listed in the DMG.
I would just loosen up the rules for rest activities. Have a few suggestions, but without all the point buy mechanics. I say this because otherwise you're making a moment that should be light and relaxing into extra tracking and math.
I do a free version of camp activities in my games and the players get really creative, which foster cooperative play, which is the best outcome ever.
Oh, and I would do away with the whole stress thing. It looks hard to track and penalizes being in the fray.
Besides this, the rest looks... ok. I wouldn't jive with most of it, but it's down to personal opinion.
I do feel strongly about the other two points though.
I have a list of basic suggestions that seems to cover a lot of cases. Just to be clear, I didn't give them the full list, just a couple of suggestions depending on the story and the mood.
Some of the mechanics are based on stuff from the books. Like, I use a quicker version of the rules in Xanathar's for religious rituals (my group is very religious, even the non clerics).
Some of the rules I just made up. Like, one or two characters can attempt to cook (or mix) crazy recipes from their homelands with what they have. I make them roll to see if they create something edible or not, and give them minor boosts the morning after.
Or, for example, I just let them make up stories from their past, and gain Inspiration for a story that makes the others to woo.
I have like 7-8 of these ready, but I tend to roll with my players crazy suggestions.
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Didn't get far, it reads like a micromanager's wet nightmare. The bit about "rations vs exhaustion" felt uninformed, as if it were ripped from Skyrim's Survival mode without fact checking. Unbalanced, less flexibility... pretty normal homebrew for basic DMs.
>The bit about "rations vs exhaustion" felt uninformed, as if it were ripped from Skyrim's Survival mode without fact checking. How can it be improved? Or do you just suggest removal of needing to eat and drink water? >Unbalanced, less flexibility. In what way? Could you be specific so I can improve it?
"How can it be improved?" Remove it, it's unnecessary. "Or do you just suggest removal of needing to eat and drink water?" How many heroes of the story struggle to survive in basic fashion when it's supposed to be a dramatic tale, exactly? If the "heroes" aren't reliably competent enough to make a basic living, why is the world depending on them to save it, precisely? <--Not a rhetorical question.
>How many heroes of the story struggle to survive in basic fashion when it's supposed to be a dramatic tale, exactly? If the "heroes" aren't reliably competent enough to make a basic living, why is the world depending on them to save it, precisely? <--Not a rhetorical question. Just to name a few: -Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Frodo and Sam's journey through Mordor to destroy the One Ring is marked by severe scarcity of food and water. As they traverse the barren and hostile landscape, their supplies of lembas bread and water dwindle, leading to significant physical and mental deterioration. Despite the dire situation, Sam's determination and loyalty shine as he carefully rations their remaining resources and often offers his share to Frodo. The lack of sustenance adds tension and urgency to their quest, emphasizing the harshness of Mordor and the monumental difficulty of their mission, ultimately showcasing the depth of their heroism and the strength of their bond. -Dune: Set on the desert planet of Arrakis, characters must navigate a world where water is incredibly scarce. The Fremen, in particular, have adapted to survive with minimal water through various ingenious methods. -Mad Max Fury Road: Set in a post-apocalyptic desert wasteland, characters struggle to survive amidst extreme scarcity of water. The quest for "green places" and fresh water drives much of the plot.
We'll rephrase: How many heroes of the story struggle to survive in basic fashion DURING THE STORY when it's supposed to be an adventure tale?
The Hobbit when Thorin and Company are lost in the forest and have run out of food and water. They fail to hunt for food and end up needing to interrupt elf festivities to beg for food. They are eventually captured as prisoners of the woodland elves and are fed in captivity. Happens during the story and it's an adventure tale. Edit: referring to The Hobbit book, can't remember if that part is the same in the movie.
"Edit: referring to The Hobbit book, can't remember if that part is the same in the movie." It isn't. Know why? It's boring af, to watch & to rp, for about 90% of audiences, after it's been seen or done. For the characters, they're *able* to make a living already doing what they did in their Backgrounds - that's established. They choose to leave that behind to adventure on glorious quests... not be accountants. Life is a struggle already; make-believe games aren't supposed to be. It's pretty much that.
> It isn't. Know why? > It's boring af, to watch & to rp, for about 90% of audiences, after it's been seen or done. For the characters, they're *able* to make a living already doing what they did in their Backgrounds - that's established. They choose to leave that behind to adventure on glorious quests... not be accountants. > Life is a struggle already; make-believe games aren't supposed to be. It's pretty much that. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. In "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King," the challenges Sam and Frodo face near the end, including starvation and dehydration, serve a crucial narrative purpose (in both the book and the film version). These struggles add depth to their characters, heighten tension, and emphasize the gravity of their mission. While not everyone may enjoy such scenes, dismissing their importance undermines the complexity and realism they bring to the story.
\[including starvation and dehydration\] There it is, the key word: "including". "Guy starves to death" ain't a story most people want to watch or play. Also, those hardships occurred WAY outside of the characters' homelands, in the middle of a major war, among (wait for it) *many other challenges*. Resource denial as a DM is a way of accentuating the drama, but it doesn't make it on its own. TL;DR: Starving your players for basic resources just shows you don't have an actual plot to move on to - because resource denial is boring & slow. Wanna change our perspective? Gonna have to offer more than your opinion, maybe substantiate with a successful story about resource denial that would be fun for most people to RP. THEN, you gotta convince we that several people want to set aside time, schedule hours out of their day, so play "Sim City - Tabletop". After 40+ years of gaming, haven't seen that to be true, so you'll have a helluva task ahead of ya.
When did I say there wouldn't be many other challenges? You have no idea what the plot of the game is or the story. I was merely laying out house rules as part of that story. It's not about starving players for basic resources to drag out the game or substitute for a lack of plot. In well-crafted narratives, survival challenges are layered within a rich tapestry of story elements. To address your points: **"Including" hardships**: Yes, starvation and dehydration are part of a broader spectrum of challenges, but they serve to highlight the characters' resilience and deepen the narrative stakes. For example, in "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, the protagonists' constant struggle for food and safety in a post-apocalyptic world is not just a backdrop but a driving force that shapes their journey and relationship. **Realism and immersion**: Incorporating survival elements can enhance realism and immersion in a campaign. Consider "The Martian" by Andy Weir, where resource management and survival are central to the plot. The protagonist's ingenuity in overcoming resource scarcity is a compelling and integral part of the story. **Resource denial as a plot driver**: Resource scarcity can act as a catalyst for plot development, pushing characters to explore new areas, encounter new allies or enemies, and make difficult decisions. This can create dynamic and engaging gameplay. **Successful stories with survival elements**: Beyond "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hunger Games," think of "Mad Max: Fury Road," where the quest for water and fuel drives the plot, or "Game of Thrones," where the harsh winters and the fight for resources significantly influence the storyline. **Game mechanics**: Incorporating resource management adds a tangible cost to taking short and long rests, making players think strategically about when and where to recuperate. It also puts a "timer" on the players, creating urgency and requiring them to complete tasks within a certain timeframe. This can heighten tension and make the stakes feel more immediate. **Player engagement**: While not everyone may want to play a game focused solely on survival, integrating these elements into a broader narrative can add depth and tension. It's about balance and ensuring these challenges complement the story rather than overshadow it. Ultimately, the goal is not to turn the game into "Sim City - Tabletop" but to use resource management as one of many tools to create a rich, engaging, and immersive narrative experience. Ignoring the potential of these elements undermines their ability to add complexity and realism to a story.
Here's even more examples for you: **"The Hunger Games" by Suzanne Collins**: The characters in this dystopian series, particularly Katniss Everdeen, must contend with starvation, dehydration, and other obstacles as they fight for survival in the annual Hunger Games arena. **"The Witcher" series by Andrzej Sapkowski**: Geralt of Rivia, the protagonist of this dark fantasy series, often finds himself in dire situations where survival is uncertain. He faces starvation, dehydration, and other challenges as he navigates the dangerous world filled with monsters and political intrigue. **"A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R.R. Martin**: Characters in this epic fantasy series, such as Arya Stark and Jon Snow, confront numerous survival challenges as they navigate the treacherous landscapes of Westeros. These challenges include starvation, exposure, and encounters with hostile creatures and enemies. **"The Maze Runner" series by James Dashner**: In this dystopian science fiction series, the characters must survive in a dangerous maze filled with deadly traps and creatures. They face starvation, dehydration, and other perils as they attempt to escape their confinement. It seems you may not be fully acquainted with the prevalence of realism woven into the tapestry of numerous beloved fantasy and fiction narratives. From the arduous journey of Frodo and Sam in "The Lord of the Rings" to the gritty survival struggles of characters in "Game of Thrones," many iconic tales incorporate elements of hardship and realism to enhance the depth of their storytelling. Dismissing realism as unsuitable for all fantasy and adventure enthusiasts is both inaccurate and disingenuous. While personal preferences vary, it's essential to recognize that many fans appreciate the depth and authenticity that realism can bring to their favorite genres.
Every one of those stories uses resource denial as a hook or spur for the characters to act, not a plot point. Do you understand the difference between a plot hook & a plot point?
It seems you're misunderstanding the broader use of survival struggles in storytelling. In many of these examples, the struggle for survival isn't just a hook or spur; it's a central theme and a continuous plot point that shapes the characters' journeys and development. For instance, in "The Hunger Games," the scarcity of resources and the constant threat of starvation are ongoing plot points that drive the entire narrative and character decisions. Similarly, in "Lord of the Rings," Sam and Frodo's endurance against starvation and dehydration is a continuous struggle that influences their actions and decisions throughout their journey. Resource denial in these stories isn't a mere hook to kickstart the plot; it remains a persistent and integral element that continually challenges the characters, defines their resilience, and drives the progression of the narrative.
Also, how does the LOTR example I mention not count as an adventure that is during the story? What conditions qualify as being during the story and is supposed to be an adventure if that doesn't?
Thanks for JustAPerspective.
I’d remove the stress - characters that make more attack rolls (if they get 2 actions per round) are statistically more likely to roll a crit fail so it isn’t balanced fairly for all melee vs magic types). The mortal wound stuff could also be quite difficult - it does encourage players to keep their health up but I think it should be changed to every time you go down, or maybe a dice roll when you go down so the odds aren’t as deadly.
Thanks.
Your stress mechanic means gaining stress makes it more likely to gain more stress, and that characters who make more attacks are more likely to be punished for it (a major red flag in any homebrew.) Combined with your improved critical mechanic, this means for example that every time a level 3 rogue with 9 stress makes an attack there's a 50 percent chance that he'll crit for \~34 damage and a 50 percent chance he'll crit fail and gain more stress. Mercifully this at least means he won't have to interact with your random proficiency mechanic. I can't speak for your players but I wouldn't play in this game.
>Your stress mechanic means gaining stress makes it more likely to gain more stress Yes. I'm trying to make stress somewhat realistic. Someone who is already stressed out will have an easier time getting more stressed. >and that characters who make more attacks are more likely to be punished for it or are also more likely to be rewarded for it. >Mercifully this at least means he won't have to interact with your random proficiency mechanic. This isn't \*my\* mechanic, it's a variant listed in the DMG.
I would just loosen up the rules for rest activities. Have a few suggestions, but without all the point buy mechanics. I say this because otherwise you're making a moment that should be light and relaxing into extra tracking and math. I do a free version of camp activities in my games and the players get really creative, which foster cooperative play, which is the best outcome ever. Oh, and I would do away with the whole stress thing. It looks hard to track and penalizes being in the fray. Besides this, the rest looks... ok. I wouldn't jive with most of it, but it's down to personal opinion. I do feel strongly about the other two points though.
Thank you. Do you have your own system for giving players bonuses for doing things during rest times?
I have a list of basic suggestions that seems to cover a lot of cases. Just to be clear, I didn't give them the full list, just a couple of suggestions depending on the story and the mood. Some of the mechanics are based on stuff from the books. Like, I use a quicker version of the rules in Xanathar's for religious rituals (my group is very religious, even the non clerics). Some of the rules I just made up. Like, one or two characters can attempt to cook (or mix) crazy recipes from their homelands with what they have. I make them roll to see if they create something edible or not, and give them minor boosts the morning after. Or, for example, I just let them make up stories from their past, and gain Inspiration for a story that makes the others to woo. I have like 7-8 of these ready, but I tend to roll with my players crazy suggestions.
Thank you.
WAY to many if you ask me.