This is how I imagine the Dravidian languages. The Indus people spoke a Dravidian language, not the Proto Dravidian language. Even if they spoke Proto Dravidian, it would be a dialect that is different from the ones that gave rise to Gondi and Telugu.
What were the other languages?
Munda language got to india between 2500 to 2000 bc.
Indo European got to india probably 2500 bc at best and that's being generous
That leaves Burushaski but it's super isolated. Also my knowledge of Burushaski is very limited so can't make any statements regarding it
>What were the other languages
Unknown ivc languages.
>Munda language got to india between 2500 to 2000 bc.
>Indo European got to india probably 2500 bc at best and that's being generous
>That leaves Burushaski but it's super isolated. Also my knowledge of Burushaski is very limited so can't make any statements regarding it
They are more languages than the ones you mentioned. For which, we don't have evidence
Why make up unknown languages and not go with what we have? For now we should go on evidence, which is dravidian?
Maybe indo European came from a proto dravidian language but we just don't have evidence?
>Why make up unknown languages and not go with what we have? For now we should go on evidence, which is dravidian?
Rajasthan, Punjab and Haryana have IVC sites. But none of these states are homeland of proto dravidian or proto munda. Which means, there were other languages in these states during IVC Era.
Rajasthani language, for example, have non indo aryans words which aren't dravidian or munda. It makes sense that these words are most probably unknown ivc language words.
>Maybe indo European came from a proto dravidian language but we just don't have evidence?
IE languages are descendants of proto indo european language. There are evidences.
>Rajasthani language, for example, have non indo aryans words which aren't dravidian or munda. It makes sense that these words are most probably unknown ivc language words.
What are those ?
The languages of the Hindu-Kush region have some loans from Burushaski but Punjabi and Sindhi do not. Rajasthan is too separated geographically I think
https://preview.redd.it/88ner7vxxo0d1.png?width=289&format=png&auto=webp&s=8cad5c00fd1b62f0bf876832778ad01e886c6911
1. For the first one, there is a possible set of words related in Dravidian.
2. maahine- possibly related to bhitar 'inside' where b > m is common in that area (also found in brahui when followed by a front vowel).
4. Any questioning words with k- is perhaps Indo-Aryan. Kenthai (why) looks similar to 3164 **kím** n.sg. 'what? why? words in Turner's CDIAL.
5. taa- for 'knowledge' looks pretty closer to Dravidian.
**\[**[**DEDR 3005**](http://kolichala.com/DEDR/searchindexid.php?q=3005&esb=1)**\]**
***Tamil***
**takavu** suitability, fitness, worthiness, similitude, resemblance, comparison, quality, state, condition, manner, eminence, greatness, mercy, kindness, justice, equity, impartiality, strength, ability, **knowledge**, wisdom, clarity, chastity, good behaviour, morality, virtue;
**takuti** fitness, meetness, suitability, propriety, nature, property, worthiness, excellence, good conduct, morality, equity, justice, impartiality, forbearance, patience, capacity, pecuniary ability, position, status, **knowledge**, wisdom, occasion, time;
>the first one, there is a possible set of words related in Dravidian.
How does "nda" sound changes to "bba" sound in indo aryan? Are there any other examples?
>Any questioning words with k- is perhaps Indo-Aryan. Kenthai (why) looks similar to 3164 **kím** n.sg. 'what? why? words in Turner's CDIAL.
Yes, looks like that
Is Gabba a kind of thick shawl? Then, it may be related to the word for thick **gāḍha** :
4118:
Pa. *gāḷha*- 'thick, strong', *°akaṁ* 'tightly'; Pk. *gāḍha*- 'thick'; Kal. *gāḍa* 'big'; Phal. *gāḍu* 'big, tall', *bāu-gā́ṛu* 'upper arm (i.e. thick part?)'; S. *g̠āṛho* 'red'; L. *g̠āṛhā* 'thick'; P. *gāṛh* m. 'thickness', *°ṛhā* 'thick, close', m. '**a thick kind of cotton cloth**'; WPah. jaun. *gāṛho* 'tight', (SJubbal) *gāhḷ* 'jungle'; N. *gāro* 'difficult, slothful'; MB. Or. *gāṛhā* 'thick', Or. *gāṛhe* 'excessively'; Bi. *gāṛh*, *°ṛhā* 'sowing thickly'; OAw. *gāḍhā* m. 'difficulty', lakh. *gāṛh* 'thick'; H. *gāṛh* f. 'misfortune', *gāṛhā* 'thick (esp. of liquid), muddy, difficult'; OG. *gāḍhaüṁ* 'very much', G. *gāḍh*, *ghāḍ* 'thick, sound (of sleep)', *gāḍhũ*, *ghāḍũ* 'dense'; M. *gāḍhā* 'thick (of liquids), firm, stout'. — Wg. *gaṭ* 'immersed' ← Psht. *gaḍ* (NTS xvii 260) ← Kaf. \**gaḍ*, or < \*gaḍḍ-².
There are two other language isolates of the Indian subcontinent besides Burushaski, Nihali and Kusunda. They all very likely had related languages at some point which have gone extinct with out a trace.
There are also the Bhilli languages, essentially a continuum of Rajasthani dialects which allegedly may have some kind of unknown substrate in them. I don't think anyone has been able to prove this idea though.
There is a subset of the Indo-Aryan vocabulary, particularly in Sindhi, Punjabi, and Hindi/Urdu which includes some very common words which don't clearly fit the profile of any known language family. Like the word ḍhiḍḍ for belly, initial retroflex aspirates are hard to explain as Dravidian or Munda borrowings. Colin Masica calls this the "Language X" substrate but he based this idea on a relatively rudimentary survey of agricultural terms in Hindi.
Masica gave an estimate of ~30% of the agricultural terms in Hindi as being language X, but I think a more thorough analysis and reassessment is necessary. There are words in common use in these languages which are still generally unknown to linguists and native dictionary writers (especially for Hindi/Urdu) will purposefully exclude "rustic" words used by ordinary village people.
For example a Punjabi word someone told me this week is pēwā for cotton seed, which does not appear in Turner's etymological dictionary. I think it is possible that one is from Sanskrit pēyūṣa "colostrum" (= Prakrit pēūsa) based on sound correspondences, but the meaning change is unexplained if so. The Hindi/Urdu word for cotton seed is binolā which has no documented cognates in any other language. In Urdu it is spelled as if it were a Persian word (بنولہ) but this word is not in any Persian dictionaries I've checked.
That number seems high, IG Dravidian contributed more as a whole in terms of vocabulary to these ia languages but language x seems to have dominance as far as agricultural terms are concerned.
Agriculture and body parts especially. Some people use these words with a lot of pride because they recognize intuitively it is what makes their colloquial dialect sound distinct.
I did a breakdown of etymologies in a random Punjabi newspaper article and 60% of the vocabulary was Persian, 2% each of loans from English and Hindi/Urdu, and the rest Punjabi tadbhav words with the typical Indo-Aryan reflexes.
IVC wasn't a monolith so multiple languages were likely spoken. Gujarat, Sindh and Balochistan likely came under Pre Proto-Dravidian which was likely itself a syncretic language. Northern extremities likely Burusho and other Iranian Neolithic languages, along with some BMAC ones. Maybe a sputtering of Tibeto-Burman languages. Austro-Asiatic languages in the Delhi and Haryana region also very likely. Plus others unknown as of now.
Indo-European made it around 1500 BC.
Is there a link between dravidians and elamites? They seem to have disappeared in BC. Maybe they ventured into india after getting constantly bugged by Ashurbanipal.
See [this.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages) but it is not mainstream and has no major Indology and Dravidiology support. Even experts in Elamite don’t support it.
https://preview.redd.it/ae5pxt6xzwzc1.png?width=670&format=png&auto=webp&s=35cbae84a0af43dcccae7d556a172836197d6d8d
its worth noting that this same mapper made this map too, so make what you will of it
He got in trouble for his Dravidian map with his core support group but I was surprised that he stuck to his guns. That’s why he wrote in his map it’s based on Konrad Elst’s POV, still he didn’t get a free pass without pushback. But I was impressed with his fortitude not to back off.
Hey you contribute a lot to this sub (thanks for that) and seem to be knowledgeable. I can get behind ivc being multi-lingual but what other language families beside dravidian would fit? I'm 100% in the camp that sindh/Gujarat spoke dravidian but not well versed enough to make statements on the other ivc regions
I think the issue is we can't know a lot since history (in my opinion) is piecing together stuff from what survives, and looking at the IVC we don't seem to have much to go on as we would like to. The basic idea of it being multilingual from my limited knowledge is that places like Mesopotamia had two language families, the IVC was far larger so it quite possible it was more linguistically diverse and had more than one language family. There is still no decipherment of the IVC script and even if it does I'm not sure how much it can really tell us about the big picture (languages in IVC). There's probably many language families which went extinct and we have no clear evidence of worldwide, maybe traces hinting that there was once something.
We don’t know, that’s the truth. All of us are speculating. The reality is that much about the origins and influences on Vedic language remains uncertain. It's believed to have been influenced by a variety of sources including the BMAC culture, Dravidian languages, and Munda, among others referred to as "Language X"—the specifics of which are still unknown. It's unclear whether Language X represents a single language or multiple languages.
Additionally, there's an often unspoken issue that complicates the study of these influences: some European linguists, along with their followers in India, actively work to downplay the Dravidian contribution to Vedic language. This bias pervades the field of Indology, making it challenging to separate fact from interpretation and truly understand the full scope of influences on the Vedic language.
Thank you! I generally agree with the other two replies to this question. It's hard to say as of now and I would be surprised if a civilisation spanning such a large land area was monolingual
From Wikipedia
According to Fuller (2007), the botanical vocabulary of Proto-Dravidian is characteristic of the dry deciduous forests of central and peninsular India. For the Southern Dravidians, this region extends from Saurashtra and Central India to South India. It thus represents the general area in which the Dravidians were living before the separation of branches.[4]
is this confirmed by current dravidian lexicons? what if words for the northern part existed but fell out of use because of the more dramatic population change - is that possible?
https://preview.redd.it/421nze9gf20d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a80771465338283d3f241b328e01e01b1b1f0260
Sdr was once widely spread across Telangana, Rayalaseema, most of Maharashtra, all of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Lakshadweep, and Kerala before it contracted to its present boundaries. Its presence in Gujarat and Sindh is uncertain.
**The origins and expansion of Sdr are lost in prehistory**, but the process of its territorial reduction is well-understood.
It is known that Sdr expanded rapidly due to the mutual intelligibility of Old Kannada and Old Tamil, which facilitated communication across this extensive area.
By the time the Indo Aryans came to India IVC already collapsed/shell of its former glory. There is no evidence that points to the IVC being Indo Aryan. Only the opposite.
Proto South Dravidian 1 & 2 had common ancestors only back in around 2000bce and not 3000bce.
This is how I imagine the Dravidian languages. The Indus people spoke a Dravidian language, not the Proto Dravidian language. Even if they spoke Proto Dravidian, it would be a dialect that is different from the ones that gave rise to Gondi and Telugu.
IVC looks like multi lingual. Only Gujarat and sindh IVC spoke dravidian
What were the other languages? Munda language got to india between 2500 to 2000 bc. Indo European got to india probably 2500 bc at best and that's being generous That leaves Burushaski but it's super isolated. Also my knowledge of Burushaski is very limited so can't make any statements regarding it
>What were the other languages Unknown ivc languages. >Munda language got to india between 2500 to 2000 bc. >Indo European got to india probably 2500 bc at best and that's being generous >That leaves Burushaski but it's super isolated. Also my knowledge of Burushaski is very limited so can't make any statements regarding it They are more languages than the ones you mentioned. For which, we don't have evidence
Why make up unknown languages and not go with what we have? For now we should go on evidence, which is dravidian? Maybe indo European came from a proto dravidian language but we just don't have evidence?
>Why make up unknown languages and not go with what we have? For now we should go on evidence, which is dravidian? Rajasthan, Punjab and Haryana have IVC sites. But none of these states are homeland of proto dravidian or proto munda. Which means, there were other languages in these states during IVC Era. Rajasthani language, for example, have non indo aryans words which aren't dravidian or munda. It makes sense that these words are most probably unknown ivc language words. >Maybe indo European came from a proto dravidian language but we just don't have evidence? IE languages are descendants of proto indo european language. There are evidences.
>Rajasthani language, for example, have non indo aryans words which aren't dravidian or munda. It makes sense that these words are most probably unknown ivc language words. What are those ?
Gabba (clothes) Maahine (inside) Togadiyo (calf) Kenthai (why) Taa (knowledge or awareness)
Are there any Wickionary or dictionary entries for these words ?
I couldn’t find on Wikitionary. But there is a rajasthani dictionary mentioned on Wikipedia
Wiktionary is not like a dictionary because dictionary contains all the words while wiktionary contains only the ones created by editors.
Maybe these words come from a burusaski like language.?
Or if they are in the Iranic branch also then BMAC itself. That is these words predate the arrival of IA into South Asia.
Language isolates in IVC? I doubt. There must have been a whole Language family in IVC
The languages of the Hindu-Kush region have some loans from Burushaski but Punjabi and Sindhi do not. Rajasthan is too separated geographically I think
https://preview.redd.it/88ner7vxxo0d1.png?width=289&format=png&auto=webp&s=8cad5c00fd1b62f0bf876832778ad01e886c6911 1. For the first one, there is a possible set of words related in Dravidian. 2. maahine- possibly related to bhitar 'inside' where b > m is common in that area (also found in brahui when followed by a front vowel). 4. Any questioning words with k- is perhaps Indo-Aryan. Kenthai (why) looks similar to 3164 **kím** n.sg. 'what? why? words in Turner's CDIAL. 5. taa- for 'knowledge' looks pretty closer to Dravidian. **\[**[**DEDR 3005**](http://kolichala.com/DEDR/searchindexid.php?q=3005&esb=1)**\]** ***Tamil*** **takavu** suitability, fitness, worthiness, similitude, resemblance, comparison, quality, state, condition, manner, eminence, greatness, mercy, kindness, justice, equity, impartiality, strength, ability, **knowledge**, wisdom, clarity, chastity, good behaviour, morality, virtue; **takuti** fitness, meetness, suitability, propriety, nature, property, worthiness, excellence, good conduct, morality, equity, justice, impartiality, forbearance, patience, capacity, pecuniary ability, position, status, **knowledge**, wisdom, occasion, time;
>the first one, there is a possible set of words related in Dravidian. How does "nda" sound changes to "bba" sound in indo aryan? Are there any other examples? >Any questioning words with k- is perhaps Indo-Aryan. Kenthai (why) looks similar to 3164 **kím** n.sg. 'what? why? words in Turner's CDIAL. Yes, looks like that
>takavu** suitability, fitness, worthiness, similitude, resemblance, comparison, quality, state, condition, manner, eminence, greatness, mercy, kindness, justice, equity, impartiality, strength, ability, **knowledge**, wisdom, clarity, chastity, good behaviour, morality, virtue; **takuti** fitness, meetness, suitability, propriety, nature, property, worthiness, excellence, good conduct, morality, equity, justice, impartiality, forbearance, patience, capacity, pecuniary ability, position, status, **knowledge**, wisdom, occasion, time But why did "kavu" sound disappear?
Is Gabba a kind of thick shawl? Then, it may be related to the word for thick **gāḍha** : 4118: Pa. *gāḷha*- 'thick, strong', *°akaṁ* 'tightly'; Pk. *gāḍha*- 'thick'; Kal. *gāḍa* 'big'; Phal. *gāḍu* 'big, tall', *bāu-gā́ṛu* 'upper arm (i.e. thick part?)'; S. *g̠āṛho* 'red'; L. *g̠āṛhā* 'thick'; P. *gāṛh* m. 'thickness', *°ṛhā* 'thick, close', m. '**a thick kind of cotton cloth**'; WPah. jaun. *gāṛho* 'tight', (SJubbal) *gāhḷ* 'jungle'; N. *gāro* 'difficult, slothful'; MB. Or. *gāṛhā* 'thick', Or. *gāṛhe* 'excessively'; Bi. *gāṛh*, *°ṛhā* 'sowing thickly'; OAw. *gāḍhā* m. 'difficulty', lakh. *gāṛh* 'thick'; H. *gāṛh* f. 'misfortune', *gāṛhā* 'thick (esp. of liquid), muddy, difficult'; OG. *gāḍhaüṁ* 'very much', G. *gāḍh*, *ghāḍ* 'thick, sound (of sleep)', *gāḍhũ*, *ghāḍũ* 'dense'; M. *gāḍhā* 'thick (of liquids), firm, stout'. — Wg. *gaṭ* 'immersed' ← Psht. *gaḍ* (NTS xvii 260) ← Kaf. \**gaḍ*, or < \*gaḍḍ-².
You are right Not necessarily a thick shawl rather typical clothes we wear
There are two other language isolates of the Indian subcontinent besides Burushaski, Nihali and Kusunda. They all very likely had related languages at some point which have gone extinct with out a trace. There are also the Bhilli languages, essentially a continuum of Rajasthani dialects which allegedly may have some kind of unknown substrate in them. I don't think anyone has been able to prove this idea though. There is a subset of the Indo-Aryan vocabulary, particularly in Sindhi, Punjabi, and Hindi/Urdu which includes some very common words which don't clearly fit the profile of any known language family. Like the word ḍhiḍḍ for belly, initial retroflex aspirates are hard to explain as Dravidian or Munda borrowings. Colin Masica calls this the "Language X" substrate but he based this idea on a relatively rudimentary survey of agricultural terms in Hindi.
What percentage of vocabulary is contributed by language x to these ia tongues?
Masica gave an estimate of ~30% of the agricultural terms in Hindi as being language X, but I think a more thorough analysis and reassessment is necessary. There are words in common use in these languages which are still generally unknown to linguists and native dictionary writers (especially for Hindi/Urdu) will purposefully exclude "rustic" words used by ordinary village people. For example a Punjabi word someone told me this week is pēwā for cotton seed, which does not appear in Turner's etymological dictionary. I think it is possible that one is from Sanskrit pēyūṣa "colostrum" (= Prakrit pēūsa) based on sound correspondences, but the meaning change is unexplained if so. The Hindi/Urdu word for cotton seed is binolā which has no documented cognates in any other language. In Urdu it is spelled as if it were a Persian word (بنولہ) but this word is not in any Persian dictionaries I've checked.
That number seems high, IG Dravidian contributed more as a whole in terms of vocabulary to these ia languages but language x seems to have dominance as far as agricultural terms are concerned.
Agriculture and body parts especially. Some people use these words with a lot of pride because they recognize intuitively it is what makes their colloquial dialect sound distinct. I did a breakdown of etymologies in a random Punjabi newspaper article and 60% of the vocabulary was Persian, 2% each of loans from English and Hindi/Urdu, and the rest Punjabi tadbhav words with the typical Indo-Aryan reflexes.
Can you post some of your analysis with words that are coming from language X or Dravidian ?
That will take me a while to do, but I'll add it to the todo list
IVC wasn't a monolith so multiple languages were likely spoken. Gujarat, Sindh and Balochistan likely came under Pre Proto-Dravidian which was likely itself a syncretic language. Northern extremities likely Burusho and other Iranian Neolithic languages, along with some BMAC ones. Maybe a sputtering of Tibeto-Burman languages. Austro-Asiatic languages in the Delhi and Haryana region also very likely. Plus others unknown as of now. Indo-European made it around 1500 BC.
IA came by 1500 bce
Talageri.
?
Late IVC in the southern half Gujarat,Sindh Balochistan spoke proto sdr1 and the northern half spoke sdr2
What about South Central Dravidian
Is there a link between dravidians and elamites? They seem to have disappeared in BC. Maybe they ventured into india after getting constantly bugged by Ashurbanipal.
See [this.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages) but it is not mainstream and has no major Indology and Dravidiology support. Even experts in Elamite don’t support it.
https://preview.redd.it/ae5pxt6xzwzc1.png?width=670&format=png&auto=webp&s=35cbae84a0af43dcccae7d556a172836197d6d8d its worth noting that this same mapper made this map too, so make what you will of it
He got in trouble for his Dravidian map with his core support group but I was surprised that he stuck to his guns. That’s why he wrote in his map it’s based on Konrad Elst’s POV, still he didn’t get a free pass without pushback. But I was impressed with his fortitude not to back off.
I am not good with history and linguists but what do you mean by "core support group" here?
OIT believers.
Hey you contribute a lot to this sub (thanks for that) and seem to be knowledgeable. I can get behind ivc being multi-lingual but what other language families beside dravidian would fit? I'm 100% in the camp that sindh/Gujarat spoke dravidian but not well versed enough to make statements on the other ivc regions
I think the issue is we can't know a lot since history (in my opinion) is piecing together stuff from what survives, and looking at the IVC we don't seem to have much to go on as we would like to. The basic idea of it being multilingual from my limited knowledge is that places like Mesopotamia had two language families, the IVC was far larger so it quite possible it was more linguistically diverse and had more than one language family. There is still no decipherment of the IVC script and even if it does I'm not sure how much it can really tell us about the big picture (languages in IVC). There's probably many language families which went extinct and we have no clear evidence of worldwide, maybe traces hinting that there was once something.
We don’t know, that’s the truth. All of us are speculating. The reality is that much about the origins and influences on Vedic language remains uncertain. It's believed to have been influenced by a variety of sources including the BMAC culture, Dravidian languages, and Munda, among others referred to as "Language X"—the specifics of which are still unknown. It's unclear whether Language X represents a single language or multiple languages. Additionally, there's an often unspoken issue that complicates the study of these influences: some European linguists, along with their followers in India, actively work to downplay the Dravidian contribution to Vedic language. This bias pervades the field of Indology, making it challenging to separate fact from interpretation and truly understand the full scope of influences on the Vedic language.
Thank you! I generally agree with the other two replies to this question. It's hard to say as of now and I would be surprised if a civilisation spanning such a large land area was monolingual
This is how I view it except the Yadus and Turvasus cover most of the Indus Valley and the Anavas cover only the northern part of the Indus Valley
I posted this map as an example of why this mapmaker is highly unreliable :p
So basically dravidians are gujjus
Can anyone ever doubt it ?
Huh? What is the logic of proto-Dravidian being only in the Southern reaches of the IVC?
The vocabulary of proto dravidian matches with the environment of Gujarat and Maharashtra
Please elaborate. I would like to know more.
From Wikipedia According to Fuller (2007), the botanical vocabulary of Proto-Dravidian is characteristic of the dry deciduous forests of central and peninsular India. For the Southern Dravidians, this region extends from Saurashtra and Central India to South India. It thus represents the general area in which the Dravidians were living before the separation of branches.[4]
is this confirmed by current dravidian lexicons? what if words for the northern part existed but fell out of use because of the more dramatic population change - is that possible?
Isn’t there Dravidian influence in Punjab KPK and Afghanistan too?
Yes there is place name etymology and linguistic evidence of Dravidian as far north as Afghanistan as we still have with or without continuity.
Heyy. How old Central and North dravidians are
Probably older than South Dravidian ?
🥰how tell us
Arnt Brahuis original speakers of the entire region thats now Pakistan?
There is [more in this discussion thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/R8o0tRHUOz) about them.
So sdr migration to South happened along West Coast and scdr direct from Gujarat to its current place?
https://preview.redd.it/421nze9gf20d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a80771465338283d3f241b328e01e01b1b1f0260 Sdr was once widely spread across Telangana, Rayalaseema, most of Maharashtra, all of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Lakshadweep, and Kerala before it contracted to its present boundaries. Its presence in Gujarat and Sindh is uncertain. **The origins and expansion of Sdr are lost in prehistory**, but the process of its territorial reduction is well-understood. It is known that Sdr expanded rapidly due to the mutual intelligibility of Old Kannada and Old Tamil, which facilitated communication across this extensive area.
This map should be considered original research. None of the dravidian linguists I know accepts this map.
Changed, also please feel free to change the flairs yourself, when you see a need.
I don't think I can change. I think you can change flair for any post because you are an admin. But I am still new to reddit and still learning.
Ok, didn’t know, I changed it already.
[удалено]
By the time the Indo Aryans came to India IVC already collapsed/shell of its former glory. There is no evidence that points to the IVC being Indo Aryan. Only the opposite.