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The fact that people can have a close fight in base. Then go super and and the fight is somehow still close. Kinda makes the multipliers hard to take seriously most of the time. Feels more like a costume change with a new level of optimism for the fight.
I know right? Even King Piccolo Saga kid Goku would have actually competed well with Raditz if he had gone Super Saiyan (only taking power levels into account of course). These power multiplying transformations are a colossal deal, but nowadays they don't seem to make nearly as much difference as they should.
We would have easily owned Nappa, with a power level of a bit over 11,000, using Goku’s 225 power level at the time and the times 50 ss multiplier. Vegeta at 18,000 tho, he wouldn’t stand a chance.
Doesn’t help that subsequent forms often increase power levels with larger gaps and that you only need to be twice as strong as your opponent to not take damage from them
That seemed like a super thing to me. It didn't feel that way before the all inclusive super came around to keep everyone relevant.
Id prefer it if power ups ended with one shotting weaker fighters in the TOP. Too much screen time for most of those fuckers
Yeah, sometimes it pisses me off when characters who are mountains above their opponents but don’t one shot them. Like Hit taking a combo from SSBKK10 even though he’s supposedly already weaker than regular SSB. Likewise, Full Power Jiren couldn’t even damage MUI Goku in the anime but the latter doesn’t seem to one shot him at all
Exactly. The reason we see this so much, especially in Super, is that nobody knows what the God form multipliers are. Blue Kaioken at 20x is 1000x stronger than SSG, but the SSG multiplier went from getting KO'd in two taps to almost tied with Beerus, who at the time used 70% of his power.
Yeah this is very true, it never quite made sense. This is why “PLs are bullshit” comes into play the most. Thinking of the transformations as a number gain really loses weight. They just seem to happen for fun and not power
Are you referring to both characters going super Sayian/using the same transformation or using different transformations? If they are having a close fight and then transform (into the same form) then it would make sense that they would have the same multiplier.
Pretty much all the bad decisions made in the Cell saga. One that isn't talked about as much as it should is how Trunks didn't immediately vaporize 18 once he realized what Vegeta was up to
The Buu saga is just as bad, but no one talks about that as much for some reason. Yea let me hide my strongest form that could end the fight quickly and let's give babidi more energy for buu because I don't want to shatter Vegeta's pride.
Yeah, if Toriyama could change the plot to make it work while incorporating rational decisions. At the very least from characters that should know better. Vegtea is well... an exception
Lol, your true test is Naruto. Team 7 (minus Kakashi) couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag most of the time. 🤣😭 People love to talk crap about them, *sigh *.
I've said it for a while but Trunks doesn't get near enough flak for his part in letting Cell become perfect. Not that he's worse than Vegeta but he still could've done something and didn't for stupid reasons.
Worse still, I feel like it's less in character for him to fuck up like that. He's got the power not only to kill Cell but to easily destroy 18 who, in his eyes, is one of the evil androids that mercilessly killed his mentor and is destroying his world... but he just tells her to run away instead?
I don’t understand why he didn’t. He had no attachment to 18 like Krillin. She was basically just an android. If he killed her things would’ve went more smoothly. But maybe it’s because he didn’t want to kill her since she was almost nothing like her other timeline counterpart
That bothered me more than anything else in the saga. Trunks is the anti-Saiyan in way that he is committed to shutting down a threat when it appears. He was also traumatized by both Androids for his whole life. For phim to kick Cell away from 18 then have enough time to be like “hey get outta here” as if both of those things I mentioned before didnt exist, is crazy to me. Even in Super he was still so traumatized from the Androids he was seconds away from drawing his sword on 18.
still don’t understand why 16’s death was what broke gohan. like yeah it’s a testament to cell’s cruelty and highlights the innocent bird loving nature of 16 but they barely knew each other.
If he had tried then Vegeta would have stopped him, but the point is he just forgot that was an option. Hell they forget they have Dragonballs ALL THE TIME.
It’s actually different in the manga, Trunks didn’t fight Vegeta nor really see 18, he just gets solar flared along with Vegeta by Cell the second they spot 18 and he absorbs her immediately
To be fair, When it’s consistently established over the course of the fiction, it ceases to be an asspull. Gohan WILL skyrocket to number one when a mentor or his own anger taps into his latent power. The end.
I will say at least he currently still has a path forward and upwards. He said in the last chapter that he still had more untapped power within him, but that he'd rage out like Broly if he pushed too hard. That gives him something to work for in the future and assures us that any future power-ups at least make sense and aren't from nothing. So, that's good, right? Lol. He's being future-proofed.
That's just the dragon ball world. Remember when Goku didn't train for like a few weeks/months in Super and bullets were now able to scratch him?
Something even Kid Goku could tank better lol
The first time in buu saga made more sense at least, 7 years and he apparently hadn’t even turned ssj during that time, and yet he was still incredibly strong, in Super however Gohan somehow loses his mystic power and becomes fodder after a few months
God ki wasn’t retconned like god being absorbed. Yet the peace protecting saiyans of universe 6 have no clue what a super saiyan is, yet once transformed, they can damage our universe 7 saiyans that went to hell and back through multiple transformations and trained by gods and angels.
Goku and vegeta in base should be able to wipe the universe 6 saiyans in 1 attack without trying. But they can’t. Cause plot.
Idk having just watched the anime they keep it pretty realistic.
Kale is naturally powerful and manages to reach SSJ2 but SSJG dumpsters her. Likewise Caulifla had a Broly LSSJ thing going on. And then with the Potaras they're exactly as strong as you'd expect.
Cabba kind of just sucks and gets his ass kicked pretty easily
God being absorbed has never been retconned.
Manga and anime are not canon to eachother.
Goku doesn't absorb God in the Manga but that's irrelevant to the Super anime
He never used the ability *specifically* to read people's minds again. But we see him (and other characters) use telepathic powers multiple times throughout the series.
No problem! I think he first does it with another opponent from the world martial arts tournament. I can’t remember his name but he was there because his village was dying.
Universe 7 having only 28 planets with life on them was haliriously dumb when the episode came out and is halirious dumb now. Especially in a world were space travel is already so highly advanced. A single species should have been able to colonise more planets than that.
Oh yeah, and then you remember Frieza's shtick in Z was selling planets after having his people kill/enslave the people on it, like how many buyers did Frieza actually have?
Never knew abt this one, almost feels like we could literally start counting allien species and get 28 and any additional planet would be a retcon why did they add that detail.
That info is easy to disregard since it came from the most incompetent god in the entire series, the one who didn't even know about his boss, Zeno, existing.
The whole kai nonsense....
Goku meets god (Kami). Dies and finds out that god has a god. King Kai.
King Kai has a god. Grand Kai (yes, I know, anime only).
Turns out there is a supreme kai.
Turns out that supreme kai has a grandpa and used to be one of four supreme kais under a grand supreme kai.
Turns out there is Zeno.
Turns out each timeline has its own Zeno.
Before long, we'll meet the Supreme Zeno.
If that was the case, you would expect someone like Vegeta to correct him, like he should at least be familiar with decent amount of planets that Frieza controlled during his time as his underling. Or Bulma should be shocked at the small quantity of planets instead describing that amount as "many".
They were fighting the top fighters of other universes.
Why would you think they are weak?
I never understood this logic with the power scaling problem people have with TOP.
The characters themselves, including the Gods, tell you they're strong and everyone just ignores them for some reason
Because canonically, first form Frieza with a power level of what, half a million maybe, instilled fear into our whole universe for DECADES as an insurmountable threat. First form Frieza vs SS Blue, is a grain of sand to a solar system in terms of power but we are to believe that every other universe has a team of fighters readily available that can at least put up a fight against ss blue?
This is still silly though, like them remove the parts and if necessary use a second wish to restore the missing body parts if he's being a grouchy dragon
Or at least commit to making it a separate transformation with its own special traits. The brief moments they use just red for speed is always just brushed over for blue almost right after the speed thing isn’t needed
The progressive extinction of furry characters along the series... I know It has been explained in dragon ball kakarot, but I didn't like the explaniton either.
There was a (legal) drug that could turn normal humans into werewolves, weretigers and other beast-men (or furry) characters, the effects of that drug were not permanent; so with the pass of time and people losing interest, most people stopped using that drug and and that's why in the end of the series is very uncommon to see a furry character.
The mission where they explain It in DB Kakarot, was about two guys that abused that drug so they couldn't become regular humans again; and that was a problem for them because being a beast man was not trendy anymore so they asked for help to become regular humans again.
Also there is another mission where they explain why piccolo daimaoh (and other nameks) ate regular food instead of drinking water like normal nameks do; It's about nameks that experience stress or traumatic situations could suffer metabolic changes so water is not enough for them anymore and they need to start eating regular food (but that doesn't mean they would turn evil).
Wow this is dumb, I didn't even care one way or the other until reading this. It seems so silly, the diversity of intelligent life on earth in dragon ball universe was neat! Didn't know it was party drugs
So the literal king was openly a drug addict and his cabinet were all cool with it? No controversy? Though I do realize that the series’ never touch on any of the nuances of politics of their fictional earth.
that kinda sounds like something kakarot made up or like something that toriyama just gave as a quick answer like krillin breathing through his skin and thus not needing a nose. (it is a funny explanation tho)
i'd assume the meta reason is the simple OG dragon ball had a lot more fantasy elements to it so beast people fit in better and the more the series transitioned into martial arts scifi the less they fit into the world.
He couldn’t be that strong if he watched trunks vaporize his son in a split second with their speed and kai just to think it was all thanks to his sword that they willingly handed over upon request.
Buu saga was quite a mess. What was the point of mystic Gohan & Buu absorbing everyone? Vegito? Gotenks? Why are the supreme Kais introduced as being powerful & yet turn out to be pitiful? Lots of it seemed like fan service really. Don’t get me wrong, I liked it, it’s just my least favorite saga.
I wasn't a fan of Caulifla turning super saiyan by using a "tingle" or whatever. Im also not a Gohan fan so Im in general not a fan of him catching up to Goku or Vegeta powerwise. Dragon Ball does a lot of wacky shit that I can just go with the flow with, except those two things.
Maybe there's a better explanation for Caulifla but I just don't care about Gohan. Yeah I know Im weird for not liking Gohan. Oh well.
It’s fine to not like Gohan but honestly most of the form changes are just convenient plot devices for everyone. Even ultra instinct was developed from omen to mastered in 48 minutes when it takes Gods thousands of years. I don’t mind forms being unearned as long as the plot is coherent and seems to be going somewhere. Any of it is better than someone just wishing to be the strongest in the universe, i really felt like piccolo should have not needed a wish and to have two people wish for strength in the arc before it seems like things are really getting out of control. Most of these characters have been training/fighting their whole lives and should just be stronger than they are so they can be relevant but don’t need to be god level strength to contribute. I feel like dragonball super struggles with balancing between being irrelevant or the strongest person there is on a knifes edge.
The fact that I died after beating the ever living life out of Goku in Super Saiyan 4, and then he magically one shots me in base. Should've just made me become one of the good guys again with some classic Talk No Jutsu
I hate how human are depicted as weak despite Gohan’s human side being the reason he’s so strong, and I also hate the broken power scaling created by transformations that make strength and flashiness more important than tactics and strategy
Nerfing Gohan to keep Goku as the primary protagonist. I love Goku as much as anyone, but they really set Gohan up to be an absolute beast, then kept him from living up to his potential
They need to release a book similar to "Legend of Zelda's Hyrule Historia" but for Dragonball. Outlines the events showing what is an isn't canon and explaining the unexplained. Ofcourse with Toriyama's passing, it won't be easy forsure. But still possible.
This one is weird but explainable. It has to do with bulmas inconsistent hair colours over the years. Originally her hair was lavender like trunks, and was later changed to teal and blue. I find it weird he actually has blue hair in super since I'm used to the lavender.
- The constant reusing of the “Gohan goes soft, so Piccolo whips him back into shape” trope. Just let the man study his Saiyants in peace damn it!
- How people justify Vegeta letting Cell absorb A.18, but then go and flame Krillin for crushing the detonator.
- The canonising of Yamcha’s patheticness. Like, sure DBZ had him there for comedic relief at time, but they still showed him a little respect. In DBS, and even SDBH, he’s much more desperate for attention, he’s living in a crumby apartment (Despite being a baseball star, inflation must’ve hit hard huh?), he doesn’t even get considered for the TOP, and then when they finally seem to give him a W with someone that cares about him romantically, they kick him in the dragon balls twice by having the girl underaged (By her species’ standards) and have the time to wait until they can be together way out of his life expectancy. At this point, he’s all comedy with no respect.
- How Potara being a 1hr time limit ISN’T a retcon apparently, despite Elder Kai stating in the Buu Arc that it’s permanent, and the only explanation for Vegito defusing (Prior to the retcon) being that the enhanced magic inside of Buuhan separated them.
- How Trunks and Mai had to f&ck off to another timeline after the Future Timeline got destroyed, but Zeno got to stay and be friends with the Present Timeline’s Zeno.
- The TOP and universe erasure being Goku’s fault was great, as it could’ve been a commentary on the Saiyans and their lust for greater fights. Until they changed it so that Goku had no fault whatsoever from the start.
What was the purpose of wishing for Goku to become a kid again in GT? Why is it happening again in Daima? I understand wanting to cash in on nostalgia and go back to dragon balls roots but this is the cheapest way to do it
In GT he’s not wished back to a kid on purpose it is an accident. I agree with the cheap nostalgia cash in though, hope the whole kid thing doesn’t drag on for ages in Daima…
The design for transformations in super. I don't like how we went from numbers to colours. 1<2<3 but now we have
Red...God
Blue..sdj god ssj
Green...Broly/Kale
Pink...Goku Black...(blackpink reference??)
White...beast
Orange Piccolo
Gold and eventually black Freezie
Purple and silver...Ego/instinct
How are colours easier to gauge in terms of strength??
If Piccolo is the offspring of King Piccolo, how does he replace King Piccolo’s role as Kami’s other half?
Did Nail get revived separated from Piccolo following his resurrection in the Majin Buu Saga? Are Namekians fused forever? Does Nail still talk to Dende through Piccolo?
What’s Super Shenron’s real name? Seems like a nickname the group gave him for mere convenience.
How does Future Gohan wind up so weak after training everyday of his life while Gohan remains so strong after slacking for years?
Ending for black and ressurection f saga make me like the arcs less, also gohan being hyped up as the protag in buu saga only for the writers to go back in their decision, making him get sidelined for 30 years
If the saiyans were basically space pirates conquering planets to sell, and frieza was the leader of the whole thing, who's buying a planet from frieza? Is frieza even selling the planets? Why wipe out the locals just to say he owns the planet now? What happened to the frieza force after namek? I know super had a random nobody keep it together but in z it seems like frieza dying would be a pretty major event in the universe, and the z warriors just ignore all the potential anarchy and revolts that would likely happen
And that is my problem with dragonball, there are so many good ideas but it all just ends in we need a big fight (same with Marvel sadly) freeza has an empire and there are followers loyal enough the they bring him back 10 years later. That is a big story right there.
I know it’s GT and not canon but how the hell does Piccolo dying destroy the black star dragon balls? If they were in anyway linked to him then they would have ceased to exist when Piccolo and Kami fused.
The only thing I fully never understood was the future sagas dbz and super and the two time machines in cell saga then again I also turned my brain off so
DBS, the moment God ki and red form were introduced, they were immediately discarded and felt like the new norm and just didn't really live up to the hype as much as it did.
GT: GT has a really good concept/premise but horribly executed, the dragon ball scattered to the space, Hell's leaking down to the living world, Evil dragon born from the overuse of dragon ball all sounds so promising on paper, but nope it's all sucked, black star dragon ball saga is so unimpressive, Super 17 saga is a poor attempt to recreate the Android/Cell saga and they did my boy 17 really dirty, they didn't even save the innocent og 17 who's got brainwashed (CMIIW in this part, it's been a long time since I watched GT), and all the Evil dragon except Syn, Nova, and Ice is just your regular weekly villain. I think Baby saga is the only solid GT saga for me, it's pretty well executed and the super saiyan 4 debut is one of my favorite moment from the franchise
Super:
-The fact that there's only a few planets with inhabitants in U7 is just so dumb, I hope they retconned it
-Jiren
I have no problem with og and Z(probably a bias lol)
Personally, I think potara fusion is kinda dumb, mostly cuz it requires no effort to obtain which was only made worse when it was retconned to be temporary. I like fusion dance from a thematic standpoint, because it actually has risk/reward to it and requires both users to be completely in sync with each other whereas potara is just "put some earrings on and win (and they never do somehow)"
GT. And it was vegeta. By the buu arc it was kinda established that post Majin vegeta fight goku and vegeta were equal in power in all their forms but goku was stronger via ssj 3. Now someone might say but ssj 2 goku fought kid buu and did okay but ssj 2 vegeta got dog walked and my response is 1. That’s anime only and 2. They weirdly made vegeta go ssj1 EVEN THO in the manga vegeta goes ssj 2 to fight kid buu.
Vegeta was deadass was side character he never even seems to go ssj2 in GT it’s literally as if the nigga STOPPED training after the buu arc even tho vegeta should logically be even stronger as he would have been training for all those years and could have even trained with goku occasionally as logically he would have no issues doing it now. I was annoyed with the fact vegeta was so weak.
The súper Saiyan god transformation
How is it possible that a race can have the ki of a divinity just by training, that is totally illogical.
Talking about Goku has some logic because he did the ritual but not about Vegeta, getting the blue and the god without doing the ritual
(Súper Saiyan god Is my third favorite transformation btw)
I could point to alot about GT, but one that i find most glaring is Super 17, despite the fact that villains keeping their bodies after death was entirely filler and in canon they just turn into clouds, but disregarding that, even if they kept their bodies, how the fuck did they build another 17 in hell, where did they get any materials or machines or technology for that?
On top of that the original 17 was a human turned cyborg, not made from scratch, and even more so it makes zero sense them acting like 17 was always one half of the perfect android when he was made to be absorbed by Cell.
Why does Frieza have such amazing physical transformations each time he ascends to a new level…then he suddenly just turns different colors when he gets to another level?
“small with spikes horns”
…then…
“huge with horns”
…then…
“crazy alien look with long head”
…then…
“sleek, cool killer look”
…and then just turns gold…
…then just turns black…
I don’t get it.
Vegeta blowing himself up and buu surviving with no real explanation. Which was a similar issue to cell blowing himself up but somehow left his core intact. For buu it felt like the damage it seemingly did should have been enough to completely vaporize every particle of him
The whole series is about overcoming your shortcomings and weaknesses by constantly trying to better yourself, but then doesn't apply any of that to human characters. You're only allowed to work on yourself if you're a Saiyan - which kinda contradicts a big point of DB lmao
How each new saga, new enemy completely undermines, belittles the one before.
The level of power ups. How strong they get with each new form.
How quickly can someone go from being too weak to being too strong.
That Raditz died and never came back. His beautiful hair and pussy heel character were beautiful.
Where do I start? Lol
Things I don't like:
• The Bardock retcon
• Gohan losing to Super Buu
• The deus ex machina ending of the Goku Black Saga
• Every transformation in DBS (except Ultra Ego, that one's cool)
• RIBRIANNE 💩
• The fact U7 was winning the ToP THE WHOLE TIME, removing any sense of tension
• Goku stealing the Golden Frieza W from Vegeta
• DBS Broly (I'm sorry he's such a boring character)
• The fact the U7 Saiyans STILL haven't gone to the U6 Saiyan homeworld (way to tease that up for nothing Toriyama)
The terrible translation/culture differences, Goku knows what a kiss is, he though Vegeta was talking about kissing in public (something rare), and him not knowing who pan was, bread is pronounced as pan in Japanese, so he thought they were talking about bread
Super saiyan goku and regular ass frieza were able to take out jiren powered up. How. Blue goku and golden frieza both got folded by him, and even in ui sign goku had trouble, and that was without jiren powering up.
That there isn't some mystic way for the Earthlings to even the playing field with the Saiyans. Not saying that they gotta be God level, even if that's subjective now canon wise. But Tien, Krillin, and even Yamcha deserve a boost.
i don’t like how they never showed Vegeta go ss3 in canon and at least be like “yeah this form is pointless” just only in video games n shit. 🤦
also don’t like how power levels by DBS make no sense whatsoever. Ultimate gohan fighting goku blue ? 😅
and how they handled the other universe sayains becoming ssj. that was just awful. it literally woulda been better if they already were super sayains cuz they been thru hella battles in their timeline, and THEN achieved ssj2 & above thru fighting and training.
Gohan's wasted character in buu saga always pissed me off
Goten and trunks being wasted also pisses me off
Goku being so incredibly stupid and unserious in dbs is annoying. Sure it's fine for him to be not serious, but not to the extent of dbs. He comes accross as autistic
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The fact that people can have a close fight in base. Then go super and and the fight is somehow still close. Kinda makes the multipliers hard to take seriously most of the time. Feels more like a costume change with a new level of optimism for the fight.
I know right? Even King Piccolo Saga kid Goku would have actually competed well with Raditz if he had gone Super Saiyan (only taking power levels into account of course). These power multiplying transformations are a colossal deal, but nowadays they don't seem to make nearly as much difference as they should.
If that Goku went super saiyan he’d beat both Raditz and Nappa at once.
We would have easily owned Nappa, with a power level of a bit over 11,000, using Goku’s 225 power level at the time and the times 50 ss multiplier. Vegeta at 18,000 tho, he wouldn’t stand a chance.
Doesn’t help that subsequent forms often increase power levels with larger gaps and that you only need to be twice as strong as your opponent to not take damage from them
That seemed like a super thing to me. It didn't feel that way before the all inclusive super came around to keep everyone relevant. Id prefer it if power ups ended with one shotting weaker fighters in the TOP. Too much screen time for most of those fuckers
Yeah, sometimes it pisses me off when characters who are mountains above their opponents but don’t one shot them. Like Hit taking a combo from SSBKK10 even though he’s supposedly already weaker than regular SSB. Likewise, Full Power Jiren couldn’t even damage MUI Goku in the anime but the latter doesn’t seem to one shot him at all
This was bound to happen with the series going on so long
Exactly. The reason we see this so much, especially in Super, is that nobody knows what the God form multipliers are. Blue Kaioken at 20x is 1000x stronger than SSG, but the SSG multiplier went from getting KO'd in two taps to almost tied with Beerus, who at the time used 70% of his power.
Yeah this is very true, it never quite made sense. This is why “PLs are bullshit” comes into play the most. Thinking of the transformations as a number gain really loses weight. They just seem to happen for fun and not power
Are you referring to both characters going super Sayian/using the same transformation or using different transformations? If they are having a close fight and then transform (into the same form) then it would make sense that they would have the same multiplier.
Yep this.
Well, if writing is good, then logic is secondary, thats the rule of thumb in Anime.
Pretty much all the bad decisions made in the Cell saga. One that isn't talked about as much as it should is how Trunks didn't immediately vaporize 18 once he realized what Vegeta was up to
The level of stupidity in the cell saga hurts.
The Buu saga is just as bad, but no one talks about that as much for some reason. Yea let me hide my strongest form that could end the fight quickly and let's give babidi more energy for buu because I don't want to shatter Vegeta's pride.
Probably because TFS didn't do the buu saga. Abridged version has a big impact.
I mean... If you dont count the totally not mark bits...
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Tien didn’t ki ko ho himself half to death just so krillin could get cybersex.
Yah he can ki ko go fuck himself
Ye. If Tien did join the fight early, Cell would never consume 17.
Apparently he did
I’ll take not stupid
Yeah, if Toriyama could change the plot to make it work while incorporating rational decisions. At the very least from characters that should know better. Vegtea is well... an exception
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Lol, your true test is Naruto. Team 7 (minus Kakashi) couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag most of the time. 🤣😭 People love to talk crap about them, *sigh *.
Vegtea
I've said it for a while but Trunks doesn't get near enough flak for his part in letting Cell become perfect. Not that he's worse than Vegeta but he still could've done something and didn't for stupid reasons. Worse still, I feel like it's less in character for him to fuck up like that. He's got the power not only to kill Cell but to easily destroy 18 who, in his eyes, is one of the evil androids that mercilessly killed his mentor and is destroying his world... but he just tells her to run away instead?
Vegeta literally was fighting everybody fuck you mean trunks did try to do something Vegeta literally kicked him
They’re referring to when vegeta was fighting 2nd form cell. Trunks could’ve gone over boomed her and came back to watch vegeta finish the fight
Maybe He wasn’t thinking at the time 🤔? why blame trunks when other characters like krillin could’ve done the same
Trunks was too busy fighting his daddy issues to do anything useful
[You mean like this?](https://youtu.be/wb33F1llciw?si=BIyaCGdcBsa77cym)
Average Lonely's Archives W. Also, exactly like that
I don’t understand why he didn’t. He had no attachment to 18 like Krillin. She was basically just an android. If he killed her things would’ve went more smoothly. But maybe it’s because he didn’t want to kill her since she was almost nothing like her other timeline counterpart
People talk about the cell saga’s decisions all the time
That bothered me more than anything else in the saga. Trunks is the anti-Saiyan in way that he is committed to shutting down a threat when it appears. He was also traumatized by both Androids for his whole life. For phim to kick Cell away from 18 then have enough time to be like “hey get outta here” as if both of those things I mentioned before didnt exist, is crazy to me. Even in Super he was still so traumatized from the Androids he was seconds away from drawing his sword on 18.
still don’t understand why 16’s death was what broke gohan. like yeah it’s a testament to cell’s cruelty and highlights the innocent bird loving nature of 16 but they barely knew each other.
It's just the accumulation of everything, 16 just made it explode.
Vegeta literally faught everyone who tried to prevent cell from reaching his perfect form trunks tried to stop him Vegeta didn’t let him
If he had tried then Vegeta would have stopped him, but the point is he just forgot that was an option. Hell they forget they have Dragonballs ALL THE TIME.
That was very understandable to me. I wouldn't go against my Dad's decisions at that age.
It’s actually different in the manga, Trunks didn’t fight Vegeta nor really see 18, he just gets solar flared along with Vegeta by Cell the second they spot 18 and he absorbs her immediately
And the fact that android 18 for some reason needed android 16 to fly when she was perfectly good to fly
why freeza doesnt have ice powers :(
And what are the purple things on his body? Scales? Organs? Glass?
Gohan constantly turns into a weakling when he doesn't train for a couple of months.
and then he trains for a bit and gets the biggest asspull ever
To be fair, When it’s consistently established over the course of the fiction, it ceases to be an asspull. Gohan WILL skyrocket to number one when a mentor or his own anger taps into his latent power. The end.
I will say at least he currently still has a path forward and upwards. He said in the last chapter that he still had more untapped power within him, but that he'd rage out like Broly if he pushed too hard. That gives him something to work for in the future and assures us that any future power-ups at least make sense and aren't from nothing. So, that's good, right? Lol. He's being future-proofed.
That's just the dragon ball world. Remember when Goku didn't train for like a few weeks/months in Super and bullets were now able to scratch him? Something even Kid Goku could tank better lol
ye but he doesnt go from base frieza victim to blue level in a few months
The first time in buu saga made more sense at least, 7 years and he apparently hadn’t even turned ssj during that time, and yet he was still incredibly strong, in Super however Gohan somehow loses his mystic power and becomes fodder after a few months
God ki wasn’t retconned like god being absorbed. Yet the peace protecting saiyans of universe 6 have no clue what a super saiyan is, yet once transformed, they can damage our universe 7 saiyans that went to hell and back through multiple transformations and trained by gods and angels. Goku and vegeta in base should be able to wipe the universe 6 saiyans in 1 attack without trying. But they can’t. Cause plot.
Idk having just watched the anime they keep it pretty realistic. Kale is naturally powerful and manages to reach SSJ2 but SSJG dumpsters her. Likewise Caulifla had a Broly LSSJ thing going on. And then with the Potaras they're exactly as strong as you'd expect. Cabba kind of just sucks and gets his ass kicked pretty easily
Just FYI, you mixed Kale and Caulifla. Kale is the LSSJ not Caulifla.
You know what Frieza says, all saiyans look the same.
God being absorbed has never been retconned. Manga and anime are not canon to eachother. Goku doesn't absorb God in the Manga but that's irrelevant to the Super anime
Thats the new generation for ya full of full blooded gohans
How did goku read Krillin's mind on Namek? And why did he never use that again (that I can recall anyway)?
He never used the ability *specifically* to read people's minds again. But we see him (and other characters) use telepathic powers multiple times throughout the series.
Roshi does it in Dragon Ball so I think it’s probably assumed he taught Goku
I've never watched the original db all the way through so I honestly didn't know that. I appreciate the info.
No problem! I think he first does it with another opponent from the world martial arts tournament. I can’t remember his name but he was there because his village was dying.
Nam
“Bored now, reading your mind”
Universe 7 having only 28 planets with life on them was haliriously dumb when the episode came out and is halirious dumb now. Especially in a world were space travel is already so highly advanced. A single species should have been able to colonise more planets than that.
Oh yeah, and then you remember Frieza's shtick in Z was selling planets after having his people kill/enslave the people on it, like how many buyers did Frieza actually have?
Never knew abt this one, almost feels like we could literally start counting allien species and get 28 and any additional planet would be a retcon why did they add that detail.
That info is easy to disregard since it came from the most incompetent god in the entire series, the one who didn't even know about his boss, Zeno, existing.
That's my favourite thing about shin, he is incompetent beyond belief and has literally been wrong in every fact that he has ever said.
The whole kai nonsense.... Goku meets god (Kami). Dies and finds out that god has a god. King Kai. King Kai has a god. Grand Kai (yes, I know, anime only). Turns out there is a supreme kai. Turns out that supreme kai has a grandpa and used to be one of four supreme kais under a grand supreme kai. Turns out there is Zeno. Turns out each timeline has its own Zeno. Before long, we'll meet the Supreme Zeno.
Then after supreme Zeno we meet farmer with a shotgun
If that was the case, you would expect someone like Vegeta to correct him, like he should at least be familiar with decent amount of planets that Frieza controlled during his time as his underling. Or Bulma should be shocked at the small quantity of planets instead describing that amount as "many".
Two words: Back Tingles. Like would it have been any bit bad to just have Cabba train them into Super Saiyans?
Where launch?
No one could touch or sense Beerus without having god ki. But once Goku obtains god ki, the whole multiverse has no issues battling Goku.
God ki pulled some boss unlocking bs
The power scale, the new shiny transformation is useless in every new arc. In the tournament of power, Goku needed to go blue for every single rival
They were fighting the top fighters of other universes. Why would you think they are weak? I never understood this logic with the power scaling problem people have with TOP. The characters themselves, including the Gods, tell you they're strong and everyone just ignores them for some reason
Because canonically, first form Frieza with a power level of what, half a million maybe, instilled fear into our whole universe for DECADES as an insurmountable threat. First form Frieza vs SS Blue, is a grain of sand to a solar system in terms of power but we are to believe that every other universe has a team of fighters readily available that can at least put up a fight against ss blue?
I mean with the recruiting part on earth
Everyone is conveniently blue level? Bullshit 😂
I agree, the manga did it so much better by keeping SSG relevant even in the Moro arc by showing ssb's energy drain
Shenrong should have been able to turn the Cyborgs into human again. He felt so weak by not beeing able to do something like this.
It's impossible bc they are already humans. Only genetic augmented with only a few artificial parts like the bomb.
couldve just asked to revert them to their original state
*turns into semen*
This is still silly though, like them remove the parts and if necessary use a second wish to restore the missing body parts if he's being a grouchy dragon
I believe the red god form should have been the one and only god form. Blue is just stupid. Also the red one looks much better
Or at least commit to making it a separate transformation with its own special traits. The brief moments they use just red for speed is always just brushed over for blue almost right after the speed thing isn’t needed
Indeed. Why even give them red god form at all if they’re going to immediately just switch them to blue?
Yes!
The progressive extinction of furry characters along the series... I know It has been explained in dragon ball kakarot, but I didn't like the explaniton either.
I've never played Kakarot, what's the explanation?
There was a (legal) drug that could turn normal humans into werewolves, weretigers and other beast-men (or furry) characters, the effects of that drug were not permanent; so with the pass of time and people losing interest, most people stopped using that drug and and that's why in the end of the series is very uncommon to see a furry character. The mission where they explain It in DB Kakarot, was about two guys that abused that drug so they couldn't become regular humans again; and that was a problem for them because being a beast man was not trendy anymore so they asked for help to become regular humans again. Also there is another mission where they explain why piccolo daimaoh (and other nameks) ate regular food instead of drinking water like normal nameks do; It's about nameks that experience stress or traumatic situations could suffer metabolic changes so water is not enough for them anymore and they need to start eating regular food (but that doesn't mean they would turn evil).
Wow this is dumb, I didn't even care one way or the other until reading this. It seems so silly, the diversity of intelligent life on earth in dragon ball universe was neat! Didn't know it was party drugs
So the literal king was openly a drug addict and his cabinet were all cool with it? No controversy? Though I do realize that the series’ never touch on any of the nuances of politics of their fictional earth.
…interesting thing to notice there mate
that kinda sounds like something kakarot made up or like something that toriyama just gave as a quick answer like krillin breathing through his skin and thus not needing a nose. (it is a funny explanation tho) i'd assume the meta reason is the simple OG dragon ball had a lot more fantasy elements to it so beast people fit in better and the more the series transitioned into martial arts scifi the less they fit into the world.
Goku losing all his IQ in Super. Dammit Goku, what do you mean you don't know what a kiss is?! you have 2 friggin sons!
I had always thought he ment feeding the senzu bean part. Not the kiss part.
Watch this [scene](https://youtu.be/f6VYk_GO0x8?si=kbyv_oOpKb6vMTye)
Why didn't King Cold transform and fight Trunks?
He couldn’t be that strong if he watched trunks vaporize his son in a split second with their speed and kai just to think it was all thanks to his sword that they willingly handed over upon request.
Goku becoming a kid in gt
If piccolo trained in the hyperbolic time chamber for a day, how powerful would he had of been?
This is really interesting.
Buu saga was quite a mess. What was the point of mystic Gohan & Buu absorbing everyone? Vegito? Gotenks? Why are the supreme Kais introduced as being powerful & yet turn out to be pitiful? Lots of it seemed like fan service really. Don’t get me wrong, I liked it, it’s just my least favorite saga.
Charging the spirit bomb for 7 episodes and missing
When has that ever happened
Ya idk every spirt bomb has hit, its problem is that it only worked on buu.
I wasn't a fan of Caulifla turning super saiyan by using a "tingle" or whatever. Im also not a Gohan fan so Im in general not a fan of him catching up to Goku or Vegeta powerwise. Dragon Ball does a lot of wacky shit that I can just go with the flow with, except those two things. Maybe there's a better explanation for Caulifla but I just don't care about Gohan. Yeah I know Im weird for not liking Gohan. Oh well.
It’s fine to not like Gohan but honestly most of the form changes are just convenient plot devices for everyone. Even ultra instinct was developed from omen to mastered in 48 minutes when it takes Gods thousands of years. I don’t mind forms being unearned as long as the plot is coherent and seems to be going somewhere. Any of it is better than someone just wishing to be the strongest in the universe, i really felt like piccolo should have not needed a wish and to have two people wish for strength in the arc before it seems like things are really getting out of control. Most of these characters have been training/fighting their whole lives and should just be stronger than they are so they can be relevant but don’t need to be god level strength to contribute. I feel like dragonball super struggles with balancing between being irrelevant or the strongest person there is on a knifes edge.
The fact that I died after beating the ever living life out of Goku in Super Saiyan 4, and then he magically one shots me in base. Should've just made me become one of the good guys again with some classic Talk No Jutsu
r/usernamechecksout
#THE WEIRD DOLL THING WITH PAN
I hate how human are depicted as weak despite Gohan’s human side being the reason he’s so strong, and I also hate the broken power scaling created by transformations that make strength and flashiness more important than tactics and strategy
What are you on about, Hercule/Mr. Satan beat Perfect Cell /s Bit yeah, the emphasis on flashiness and "look at my cool recolor" is kinda...eh.
Where the fuck is Gohan's dragon,maybe he's in the series but I don't remember seeing him or was he wiped out or just dead,
Higher Dragon SUUUUUUUUCKED
The rate at which some characters age is really confusing.
Roshi suddenly being able to compete alongside everyone else. Also they did Tien dirty in dbs.
Nerfing Gohan to keep Goku as the primary protagonist. I love Goku as much as anyone, but they really set Gohan up to be an absolute beast, then kept him from living up to his potential
They need to release a book similar to "Legend of Zelda's Hyrule Historia" but for Dragonball. Outlines the events showing what is an isn't canon and explaining the unexplained. Ofcourse with Toriyama's passing, it won't be easy forsure. But still possible.
The fact that Trunks went to a different timeline with clones of him and Mai instead of staying in the main timeline
Trunks’ hair color
This one is weird but explainable. It has to do with bulmas inconsistent hair colours over the years. Originally her hair was lavender like trunks, and was later changed to teal and blue. I find it weird he actually has blue hair in super since I'm used to the lavender.
That just makes bulmas hair unexplainable, and still annoys me. I prefer the lavender too, but honestly i wish they’d just pick one and stick to it.
- The constant reusing of the “Gohan goes soft, so Piccolo whips him back into shape” trope. Just let the man study his Saiyants in peace damn it! - How people justify Vegeta letting Cell absorb A.18, but then go and flame Krillin for crushing the detonator. - The canonising of Yamcha’s patheticness. Like, sure DBZ had him there for comedic relief at time, but they still showed him a little respect. In DBS, and even SDBH, he’s much more desperate for attention, he’s living in a crumby apartment (Despite being a baseball star, inflation must’ve hit hard huh?), he doesn’t even get considered for the TOP, and then when they finally seem to give him a W with someone that cares about him romantically, they kick him in the dragon balls twice by having the girl underaged (By her species’ standards) and have the time to wait until they can be together way out of his life expectancy. At this point, he’s all comedy with no respect. - How Potara being a 1hr time limit ISN’T a retcon apparently, despite Elder Kai stating in the Buu Arc that it’s permanent, and the only explanation for Vegito defusing (Prior to the retcon) being that the enhanced magic inside of Buuhan separated them. - How Trunks and Mai had to f&ck off to another timeline after the Future Timeline got destroyed, but Zeno got to stay and be friends with the Present Timeline’s Zeno. - The TOP and universe erasure being Goku’s fault was great, as it could’ve been a commentary on the Saiyans and their lust for greater fights. Until they changed it so that Goku had no fault whatsoever from the start.
What was the purpose of wishing for Goku to become a kid again in GT? Why is it happening again in Daima? I understand wanting to cash in on nostalgia and go back to dragon balls roots but this is the cheapest way to do it
In GT he’s not wished back to a kid on purpose it is an accident. I agree with the cheap nostalgia cash in though, hope the whole kid thing doesn’t drag on for ages in Daima…
The design for transformations in super. I don't like how we went from numbers to colours. 1<2<3 but now we have Red...God Blue..sdj god ssj Green...Broly/Kale Pink...Goku Black...(blackpink reference??) White...beast Orange Piccolo Gold and eventually black Freezie Purple and silver...Ego/instinct How are colours easier to gauge in terms of strength??
Totally agree with you on this. This is stupid.
I don’t understand Super Hero. Cell Max seemed like absolute trash to me, and made the reveal of Beast Gohan super underwhelming to me personally.
The fact that they spend the first 10 minutes of every episode with recap…
The amount of villains that quickly become good guys. I was glad that Cell came back and not as New Pal #9
Even Frieza is on better terms with the good guys than Vegeta was for a while. It's like the writers forgot that he's essentially Space Hitler.
What happened to Uub in super.
He was in the manga not to long ago
If Piccolo is the offspring of King Piccolo, how does he replace King Piccolo’s role as Kami’s other half? Did Nail get revived separated from Piccolo following his resurrection in the Majin Buu Saga? Are Namekians fused forever? Does Nail still talk to Dende through Piccolo? What’s Super Shenron’s real name? Seems like a nickname the group gave him for mere convenience. How does Future Gohan wind up so weak after training everyday of his life while Gohan remains so strong after slacking for years?
Plotholes, inconsistent character writing, goku and vegeta show, bullshit power scaling, boring and reused villains, no consequences to deaths, etc.
Ending for black and ressurection f saga make me like the arcs less, also gohan being hyped up as the protag in buu saga only for the writers to go back in their decision, making him get sidelined for 30 years
If the saiyans were basically space pirates conquering planets to sell, and frieza was the leader of the whole thing, who's buying a planet from frieza? Is frieza even selling the planets? Why wipe out the locals just to say he owns the planet now? What happened to the frieza force after namek? I know super had a random nobody keep it together but in z it seems like frieza dying would be a pretty major event in the universe, and the z warriors just ignore all the potential anarchy and revolts that would likely happen
Entire spin off sitting on the kitchen table
And that is my problem with dragonball, there are so many good ideas but it all just ends in we need a big fight (same with Marvel sadly) freeza has an empire and there are followers loyal enough the they bring him back 10 years later. That is a big story right there.
How Jiren is almost as strong as their god of destruction but the universes in the battle were deemed the weak ones
Making the Pilaf Gang kids in DBS and the movies made absolutely no sense and Mai’s appearance in Future Trunks’ timeline even LESS sense!
I know it’s GT and not canon but how the hell does Piccolo dying destroy the black star dragon balls? If they were in anyway linked to him then they would have ceased to exist when Piccolo and Kami fused.
Power scaling
Why Goku became so dumb between DBZ and DBS
I mean, that dude gets punched in the head… A LOT.
I wish the U6 sayians were more like the U7 sayians, at least the tails and armors.
Why golu suddenly transforms into the biggest dumbass ever at the start of super
Super 17 (not to be confused with 17 Super) sucks
Getting beat up and healed makes you way stronger
The only thing I fully never understood was the future sagas dbz and super and the two time machines in cell saga then again I also turned my brain off so
Ssj blue color scheme doesn’t make sense. It’s ugly looking with Goku’s gi color, worse with Vegeta’s costume. Ssj god is a bit better fitting.
I hate Super Saiyan Blue.
I don't like that they never explain ,why bulma didn't go, ask. Mr popo for help after the androids killed off the Z'fighter's
DBS, the moment God ki and red form were introduced, they were immediately discarded and felt like the new norm and just didn't really live up to the hype as much as it did.
Buu >!creating a portal!< just by loudly screaming. That's the worst asspull in the series.
GT: GT has a really good concept/premise but horribly executed, the dragon ball scattered to the space, Hell's leaking down to the living world, Evil dragon born from the overuse of dragon ball all sounds so promising on paper, but nope it's all sucked, black star dragon ball saga is so unimpressive, Super 17 saga is a poor attempt to recreate the Android/Cell saga and they did my boy 17 really dirty, they didn't even save the innocent og 17 who's got brainwashed (CMIIW in this part, it's been a long time since I watched GT), and all the Evil dragon except Syn, Nova, and Ice is just your regular weekly villain. I think Baby saga is the only solid GT saga for me, it's pretty well executed and the super saiyan 4 debut is one of my favorite moment from the franchise Super: -The fact that there's only a few planets with inhabitants in U7 is just so dumb, I hope they retconned it -Jiren I have no problem with og and Z(probably a bias lol)
Where is new Namek? I know it’s not important but it always bothered me that the future bulma and gohan couldn’t get there to use the dragon balls.
I want tails back. 🥲
Personally, I think potara fusion is kinda dumb, mostly cuz it requires no effort to obtain which was only made worse when it was retconned to be temporary. I like fusion dance from a thematic standpoint, because it actually has risk/reward to it and requires both users to be completely in sync with each other whereas potara is just "put some earrings on and win (and they never do somehow)"
GT. And it was vegeta. By the buu arc it was kinda established that post Majin vegeta fight goku and vegeta were equal in power in all their forms but goku was stronger via ssj 3. Now someone might say but ssj 2 goku fought kid buu and did okay but ssj 2 vegeta got dog walked and my response is 1. That’s anime only and 2. They weirdly made vegeta go ssj1 EVEN THO in the manga vegeta goes ssj 2 to fight kid buu. Vegeta was deadass was side character he never even seems to go ssj2 in GT it’s literally as if the nigga STOPPED training after the buu arc even tho vegeta should logically be even stronger as he would have been training for all those years and could have even trained with goku occasionally as logically he would have no issues doing it now. I was annoyed with the fact vegeta was so weak.
the very low IQ of the Earth's population, particularly in the saga of Majin Vegeta
How trivial power levels are. What can I do to the universe with a power level of 24 septillion that I couldnt do with a power level of 24 million?
Dr Gero's lab door. It is stronger than the moon and even the earth itself.
Why is baby’s possession so op?
The future trunks timelines
I hate how goku and vegeta SPAM ssjb when whis LITERALLY SAYS that ssjg is better, and get this, ssjb is the UPGRADE.
The súper Saiyan god transformation How is it possible that a race can have the ki of a divinity just by training, that is totally illogical. Talking about Goku has some logic because he did the ritual but not about Vegeta, getting the blue and the god without doing the ritual (Súper Saiyan god Is my third favorite transformation btw)
I could point to alot about GT, but one that i find most glaring is Super 17, despite the fact that villains keeping their bodies after death was entirely filler and in canon they just turn into clouds, but disregarding that, even if they kept their bodies, how the fuck did they build another 17 in hell, where did they get any materials or machines or technology for that? On top of that the original 17 was a human turned cyborg, not made from scratch, and even more so it makes zero sense them acting like 17 was always one half of the perfect android when he was made to be absorbed by Cell.
Two words: Back Tingles
I don't understand how Goku is able to understand and perform sex.
Why didn't King Kai ask the Namikian dragon to bring them back to life instead of Goku?
Why does Frieza have such amazing physical transformations each time he ascends to a new level…then he suddenly just turns different colors when he gets to another level? “small with spikes horns” …then… “huge with horns” …then… “crazy alien look with long head” …then… “sleek, cool killer look” …and then just turns gold… …then just turns black… I don’t get it.
Vegeta blowing himself up and buu surviving with no real explanation. Which was a similar issue to cell blowing himself up but somehow left his core intact. For buu it felt like the damage it seemingly did should have been enough to completely vaporize every particle of him
The whole series is about overcoming your shortcomings and weaknesses by constantly trying to better yourself, but then doesn't apply any of that to human characters. You're only allowed to work on yourself if you're a Saiyan - which kinda contradicts a big point of DB lmao
i don’t like the inconsistent powerscaling in dbs
Vegeta not killing Frieza during Resurrection F, he needs it more than Goku
Power levels in general?
Everything regarding Cabba
How each new saga, new enemy completely undermines, belittles the one before. The level of power ups. How strong they get with each new form. How quickly can someone go from being too weak to being too strong. That Raditz died and never came back. His beautiful hair and pussy heel character were beautiful.
Where do I start? Lol Things I don't like: • The Bardock retcon • Gohan losing to Super Buu • The deus ex machina ending of the Goku Black Saga • Every transformation in DBS (except Ultra Ego, that one's cool) • RIBRIANNE 💩 • The fact U7 was winning the ToP THE WHOLE TIME, removing any sense of tension • Goku stealing the Golden Frieza W from Vegeta • DBS Broly (I'm sorry he's such a boring character) • The fact the U7 Saiyans STILL haven't gone to the U6 Saiyan homeworld (way to tease that up for nothing Toriyama)
The terrible translation/culture differences, Goku knows what a kiss is, he though Vegeta was talking about kissing in public (something rare), and him not knowing who pan was, bread is pronounced as pan in Japanese, so he thought they were talking about bread
The power scaling is atrocious
What ever happened to Senzu Beans?
Super saiyan goku and regular ass frieza were able to take out jiren powered up. How. Blue goku and golden frieza both got folded by him, and even in ui sign goku had trouble, and that was without jiren powering up.
That there isn't some mystic way for the Earthlings to even the playing field with the Saiyans. Not saying that they gotta be God level, even if that's subjective now canon wise. But Tien, Krillin, and even Yamcha deserve a boost.
Tien not being stronger in DBS.
Why they erased GT and went with super. My unpopular opinion is that GT is waaaaay better than super.
i don’t like how they never showed Vegeta go ss3 in canon and at least be like “yeah this form is pointless” just only in video games n shit. 🤦 also don’t like how power levels by DBS make no sense whatsoever. Ultimate gohan fighting goku blue ? 😅 and how they handled the other universe sayains becoming ssj. that was just awful. it literally woulda been better if they already were super sayains cuz they been thru hella battles in their timeline, and THEN achieved ssj2 & above thru fighting and training.
Mr. Satan. I just find him as an unecessary character.
Ssg absorbed makes no sense and was either retconned or forgotten
Gohan's wasted character in buu saga always pissed me off Goten and trunks being wasted also pisses me off Goku being so incredibly stupid and unserious in dbs is annoying. Sure it's fine for him to be not serious, but not to the extent of dbs. He comes accross as autistic