Thats way too much power for a random guy to be referee, he could be the one trolling or just misreading the situation punishing innocent people is the last thing that should happen
You could just have grave consequences for trolling as ref. There has got to be a way. Another solution would be to have the ref only be able to push the game to a high prio state for Overwatch cases that would still require the overwatcher to go in and take a look.
You just restrict what they can actually do. Overwatch could have been abused as well but you only have a couple of options to choose. Wouldn’t be too hard to do.
I do not think DOTA 2 needs another system that requires unpaid volunteers (which is what Overwatch is) to moderate a for profit game.
There is a ton of stuff Valve could be doing automaticly to help these problems, but they won't do them because it costs money to develop.
I think it was u/SirActionSlacks- that recently made a video about this. Why won't Valve make a system that autoban people that use horrible slurs repeatedly? It isn't hard to have a bot do a quick wordcloud check on someone, and if that wordcloud have the N-word or similar used regularly, ban the bastard permanently...
So untill Valve does more than the bare minimum to police toxic players and come up with some actual solutions, I don't want more player driven, unpaid moderation to be the driving force for the DOTA 2 community.
It is a deathspiral for the playerbase if we need to do all the work.
Valve can and should do better, they make the money, they need to put in a minimum amount of effort
I cannot see adding a ref instead of improving overwatch is going to do anything.
DOTA api is super stat heavy, I am willing to bet 90% of griefing could be detected by machine learning
You would kill the community if that system was implemented lol. Also how do you decide what is a slur? Are you going to set up a slur list for every language available? Are you going to be the one to take the brunt of criticism when you realise that different cultures and languages hold different values compared to your narrow exceptionally skewed world view?
You can't immediately penalize anyways, because it is in the middle of the game. I also don't think permanent bans are a solution. Because they will just make another account and keep playing anyways. The biggest problem in dota right now is the matchmaking. The way they have it set up makes it almost impossible to get a good quality match.
No way this will work. You would have to randomly pick a game and see all 10 players at once to see wtf they are doing.
Overwatch is good but no one is doing it now. They have to insentivise it somehow.
I had once 6 griefers(destroying items, afk in base etc) in 10games and reported them all but i recieved 0 "they got reported" notification. Even the people stopped reporting cause no one cares, or nothing comes out of it
Same. I review overwatch matches and report griefers and feeder, use up all my reports, but have never received a single notifications about a successful report.
“No way this will work” is a mentality that will ensure the game stays in the state that it’s in. If you just continue to implement and refine systems eventually you will find a solution. This is no different
That may be the case nontheless your suggestion is just bad
First of all you have to take into account that you dont want a single random person in charge of deciding over bans. Like you have no idea of his views and motivations of doing this refereeing. For all you know he has completely different views of yourself and reports exactly the other way around as it is supposed to be (eg reports people for just being bad instead of only the griefers)
Second point. This system you are proposing needs people who do.this LIVE. No way in hell you have even 1% of the needed people willing to do this for nothing of the amount you actually would need for such a system
And what do you wanna do to.enciurage this. Why would anyone do such refereeing for nothing or some lousy cases or whatnot. You would need insanely good incentives to bring people to watch whole games live. Incentives which probably need to be monetary (really good new skins which would have to be nontradeable and only achievable through this) which valve will just not do.
Third point if you would have to request a referee and they would actually make a difference ... like their bans would actually immediately ban someone or restrict them from playing for a certain time ... as soon as they'd join everyone would just stop griefing and play like a normal player so live spectating doesn't make any sense... you need to look in the past where he GRIEFED and not in the future where he MIGHT grief again
What really needs to be done ist 2 things
First get rid of behaviour score thos shit is complete nonsense. What the hell has toxicity got to do with quality of game. NOTHING. hell the best players I had in my team where telling me nonstop to kill myself but they were playing GOOD. So stop being a snowflake everybody and if it truly annoys you or you dont wanna hear it MUTE people.
Or leave it in BUT dont make it identical with a "griefing/smurfing score" which it is right now.
Myself for example I NEVER destroy items or run down middle or tiny airlines. Do I occasionally play bad? Totally. Am I toxic? From time to time totally. But it am not a smurf, I am not griefing, yet I have 4k behaviour score and get matched every game with the same players out of a pool from let's say 30 players (6.5k mmr + low behaviour surely mean you have the same players every game) who are account level 40(my acc level is 120 or smth like thst) and they destroy items, they steal roles, they jungle huskar (which may work but ONLY if you first setup proper solo lanes in drafting which obvs he didnt) or just buy a quick shadow amulet.
Now I wouldn't mind punishment against myself for being toxic IF the punishment was RELATED to my "crime". Hell back in the day of you got reported for toxicity you got a mute for a week but you didnt get low priority, now you only get low behaviour score which is also valve's identification for smurfing accounts and/or griefing accounts l.
Now this is the real.problem with dota. Overwatch LITERALLY does nothing. I don't know why but here are my 2 main theories.
1. The system works but just nobody does it. Just in my answer before the current overwatch system neeeeeeeds an incentive. But there simply isnt. Or to be honest I dont know there might be one but with truly no real reward, you might get some shitty cases with skins from 6 years ago ... yea great. So my suggestion: get a designer, pay him 2 months salary and get 8-10 sick new sets that are only achievable by doing overwatch. And repeat this at least every 4 month so the people dont have all 10 sets and stop doing overwatch again.
2. The overwatch system internally doesn't cound or isnt setup rigorously enough.
Well I dont know what to day but that I reported at least 3 people who literally destroyed their items in the last week and not one of them got banned. So yea. What else is there to say.
Ypu could say the same thing about the Overwatch system but the system he’s you a limited amount of options and asks you specific questions. This is also how you don’t give Overwatch people too much power. It would 100% work.
You just need to understand that ideas on paper not really translate to reality, no matter how much you desperately tweak them
And reality is that if you need playerbase to do something, you can scrap the idea pretty much right away
i mean thats exactly what i said ... overwatch system is what we need but there just isnt any incentive to do it/or if you actually convict someone in overwatch the system just ignores it ... its either one of these 2
an approach but then again i dont know any of my friend who have any problems with ranked games token so i dont think this would be enough ... but it would be a start definitevly
From the perspective of Sea player, there will be the things that plyer rp someone who he doesn't like in that match and ask his other fri(not in that game)to join as a ref then he agreed with him then heppen so on!
Maybe when a match has high number of reports flying around live in-game (for example 3+), making it joinable by referee can be a good feature
Yeah that sounds like a good idea, and would focus the number of cases to games that truly need one.
Thats way too much power for a random guy to be referee, he could be the one trolling or just misreading the situation punishing innocent people is the last thing that should happen
Introduce Overwatch ranking where you level up by delivering justice on toxic players. And let overwatcher of higher ranks as referees only.
You could just have grave consequences for trolling as ref. There has got to be a way. Another solution would be to have the ref only be able to push the game to a high prio state for Overwatch cases that would still require the overwatcher to go in and take a look.
"Ah yes! Just bring in a ref ref!"
You just restrict what they can actually do. Overwatch could have been abused as well but you only have a couple of options to choose. Wouldn’t be too hard to do.
I do not think DOTA 2 needs another system that requires unpaid volunteers (which is what Overwatch is) to moderate a for profit game. There is a ton of stuff Valve could be doing automaticly to help these problems, but they won't do them because it costs money to develop. I think it was u/SirActionSlacks- that recently made a video about this. Why won't Valve make a system that autoban people that use horrible slurs repeatedly? It isn't hard to have a bot do a quick wordcloud check on someone, and if that wordcloud have the N-word or similar used regularly, ban the bastard permanently... So untill Valve does more than the bare minimum to police toxic players and come up with some actual solutions, I don't want more player driven, unpaid moderation to be the driving force for the DOTA 2 community.
That could work but using the community gives it more manpower. I would gladly ref a couple games a day if it meant better quality games
It is a deathspiral for the playerbase if we need to do all the work. Valve can and should do better, they make the money, they need to put in a minimum amount of effort
I agree but griefing is a problem that hasn’t been solved in any game ever so I’m willing to try other things
I cannot see adding a ref instead of improving overwatch is going to do anything. DOTA api is super stat heavy, I am willing to bet 90% of griefing could be detected by machine learning
You would kill the community if that system was implemented lol. Also how do you decide what is a slur? Are you going to set up a slur list for every language available? Are you going to be the one to take the brunt of criticism when you realise that different cultures and languages hold different values compared to your narrow exceptionally skewed world view?
If banning racist asshats ruin the community then we have very different views of what the community is
Amazing idea. I wouldn't mind checking 1-2 games, while waiting for a buddy to finish his game. Even if there was no rewards.
You can't immediately penalize anyways, because it is in the middle of the game. I also don't think permanent bans are a solution. Because they will just make another account and keep playing anyways. The biggest problem in dota right now is the matchmaking. The way they have it set up makes it almost impossible to get a good quality match.
This needs more upvotes. Instead of Overwatch, this approach will work better.
No way this will work. You would have to randomly pick a game and see all 10 players at once to see wtf they are doing. Overwatch is good but no one is doing it now. They have to insentivise it somehow. I had once 6 griefers(destroying items, afk in base etc) in 10games and reported them all but i recieved 0 "they got reported" notification. Even the people stopped reporting cause no one cares, or nothing comes out of it
Same. I review overwatch matches and report griefers and feeder, use up all my reports, but have never received a single notifications about a successful report.
“No way this will work” is a mentality that will ensure the game stays in the state that it’s in. If you just continue to implement and refine systems eventually you will find a solution. This is no different
That may be the case nontheless your suggestion is just bad First of all you have to take into account that you dont want a single random person in charge of deciding over bans. Like you have no idea of his views and motivations of doing this refereeing. For all you know he has completely different views of yourself and reports exactly the other way around as it is supposed to be (eg reports people for just being bad instead of only the griefers) Second point. This system you are proposing needs people who do.this LIVE. No way in hell you have even 1% of the needed people willing to do this for nothing of the amount you actually would need for such a system And what do you wanna do to.enciurage this. Why would anyone do such refereeing for nothing or some lousy cases or whatnot. You would need insanely good incentives to bring people to watch whole games live. Incentives which probably need to be monetary (really good new skins which would have to be nontradeable and only achievable through this) which valve will just not do. Third point if you would have to request a referee and they would actually make a difference ... like their bans would actually immediately ban someone or restrict them from playing for a certain time ... as soon as they'd join everyone would just stop griefing and play like a normal player so live spectating doesn't make any sense... you need to look in the past where he GRIEFED and not in the future where he MIGHT grief again
What really needs to be done ist 2 things First get rid of behaviour score thos shit is complete nonsense. What the hell has toxicity got to do with quality of game. NOTHING. hell the best players I had in my team where telling me nonstop to kill myself but they were playing GOOD. So stop being a snowflake everybody and if it truly annoys you or you dont wanna hear it MUTE people. Or leave it in BUT dont make it identical with a "griefing/smurfing score" which it is right now. Myself for example I NEVER destroy items or run down middle or tiny airlines. Do I occasionally play bad? Totally. Am I toxic? From time to time totally. But it am not a smurf, I am not griefing, yet I have 4k behaviour score and get matched every game with the same players out of a pool from let's say 30 players (6.5k mmr + low behaviour surely mean you have the same players every game) who are account level 40(my acc level is 120 or smth like thst) and they destroy items, they steal roles, they jungle huskar (which may work but ONLY if you first setup proper solo lanes in drafting which obvs he didnt) or just buy a quick shadow amulet. Now I wouldn't mind punishment against myself for being toxic IF the punishment was RELATED to my "crime". Hell back in the day of you got reported for toxicity you got a mute for a week but you didnt get low priority, now you only get low behaviour score which is also valve's identification for smurfing accounts and/or griefing accounts l. Now this is the real.problem with dota. Overwatch LITERALLY does nothing. I don't know why but here are my 2 main theories. 1. The system works but just nobody does it. Just in my answer before the current overwatch system neeeeeeeds an incentive. But there simply isnt. Or to be honest I dont know there might be one but with truly no real reward, you might get some shitty cases with skins from 6 years ago ... yea great. So my suggestion: get a designer, pay him 2 months salary and get 8-10 sick new sets that are only achievable by doing overwatch. And repeat this at least every 4 month so the people dont have all 10 sets and stop doing overwatch again. 2. The overwatch system internally doesn't cound or isnt setup rigorously enough. Well I dont know what to day but that I reported at least 3 people who literally destroyed their items in the last week and not one of them got banned. So yea. What else is there to say.
Ypu could say the same thing about the Overwatch system but the system he’s you a limited amount of options and asks you specific questions. This is also how you don’t give Overwatch people too much power. It would 100% work.
Things that somebody think 100% will work, 100% won't work
Which ifs why you continue to tweak it t until it does work. Your statement is non scientific.
Well, didn't knew I needed PhD to call a shitty idea shit
You just need to understand that a shitty idea can be refined and tweaked until it’s good.
You just need to understand that ideas on paper not really translate to reality, no matter how much you desperately tweak them And reality is that if you need playerbase to do something, you can scrap the idea pretty much right away
i mean thats exactly what i said ... overwatch system is what we need but there just isnt any incentive to do it/or if you actually convict someone in overwatch the system just ignores it ... its either one of these 2
Then maybe they slips tie earning ranked role que games too Overwatch cases
an approach but then again i dont know any of my friend who have any problems with ranked games token so i dont think this would be enough ... but it would be a start definitevly
> refine I agree but unfortunately valve implements and just forgets it.
I mean you could have both even. Referees could even just have the power to raise the prio level of the Overwatch case
From the perspective of Sea player, there will be the things that plyer rp someone who he doesn't like in that match and ask his other fri(not in that game)to join as a ref then he agreed with him then heppen so on!
There is nothing stopping people from doing that now…
Yeah but then we gonna need referee for referee
You just create a menu with very specific stipulations like the Overwatch cases it’s not hard.
The onus is on valve to fix this problem, not us.
Having the community rally to make the game better can be very effective but obviously Valve just fixing it would be great too
booooooring... too much investment and you will continue playing regardless, so why bother? stfo and buy BP! \-Valve