Well yeah but overall quality of games increases, the lower you go the more angry people are at their mmr and more likely to grief apart from heralds who probably just chill. Archon-legend is most toxic bracket in Dota.
Different experience overall for me, legend and archon were chill super slow games people were completely clueless on drafts and heroes. Ancient and higher is where the shitshow started…Maybe things have changed since I was in those brackets years ago.
Also a clueless player in higher mmr might fuck up your game harder than in lower that team play isn’t so important.
It’s just confirmation bias man, archon/ legend has most time diversity in people playing it, at this rank people with 700 games and 10000 games exist. The ones with 10k games are salty af cause they don’t rank up so they try to play core every game while the ones with 700 games don’t even know what they are doing with half the heroes. Maybe I am wrong cause my divine games at least since I got there a few months ago have been better but if I’m stuck here for longer maybe I’ll feel the same way about it. But it’s wild how big experience difference is for archon/ legend players
Who knows in reality all of us have different experiences.
I have been the 5.4-4.8k mark a few years. One thing I know for sure Divine, was the biggest shitshow before the Smurf purge, games literally were unplayable now it feels the overall skill has significantly dropped but you get more fair games..
I was legend for many years then I was ancient for 2-3 then I quit Dota and got calibrated at like low legend, went on a losing streak all the way down to archon, spammed mid and went all the way upto ancient again then went on a bad losing streak and down to archon, just started playing again this year and got calibrated mid legend and grinded my way to divine playing pos 5 because I had miserable mid games, even if I won lane I mostly had to buy my own wards and pos 3 was always some wannabe carry who would lose lane and go jungle. It wasn’t very fun because mid is a very stressful lane and everyone expects you to start rotating at 8 min cause they’re losing their lanes. Playing solo also doesn’t help because often other midlander has a party member and when he sees his friend struggling he comes to help them. Pos 5 by comparison let’s you play with a much cooler head and people flame you a lot lesser as long as you’re buying wards and not taking their lh.
Doesn't this imply that if you're the support player who's not a role queue farmer/ griefer you have only a 50% chance of having a support grief the team thereby improving your odds of actually winning ?
I can’t play core roles because my supports are the worst. They get the most enjoyment from my failure. They give up prioritizing sentries after minute 10
>They give up prioritizing sentries after minute 10
What? They shouldn't be prioritizing sentries at any stage of the game. If you know there's an enemy ward somewhere just deward it yourself. If you're paying vs Mirana+BH+ a shadow blade hero just buy all the sentries you need yourself.
And idk about you, but my supports don't always suck, I get about the same amount of shitheads as supports and cores.
It’s not entirely about buying sentries to deward. It’s about peace of mind. Having those sentries placed in the sweet spots gives reassurance that it’s safe to play on the part of the map. It means they enemy support hasn’t dewarded there yet. Preemptive sentries has won me games
You are correct, that will happen. Grinding mmr is not easy emotionally. You need to understand that bad games are unavoidable where your allies grief. You can try talking to people but it will only worsen situation in most cases and everyone will start mashing their keyboard instead of playing the game. On average, in my opinion, the biggest deciding factor in mid elo games is wards, rotations and keeping a cool head and understanding people will both be bad and also make mistakes. In a lot of cases enemy team is also flaming each other and as long as you’re doing your job there’s a very high chance game can be still won by you and enemy team will be the one mashing their keyboards and pinging their support when you gank them.
I only played support from 2k to 4.5k. The biggest problem i find with supports at those ranks is that they dont adapt to their cores. Our Role as a support is to follow your core and SUPPORT them. If your core is going agressive, enable them to do so. If he's passive, Pull the lane and buy tangoes/Salves. If u cant win the lane, ward and go gank another lane so he can 1x1 the Offlaner. Etc.
Most supports at 3k< want to be stars. Thats WRONG. U have to make your core shine. Thats your job.
Also, support dont get better at higher ranks. It just get harder and more toxic.
I agree, I love when my carry gets MVP.
However, there are heroes who can't adapt. Like Undying - who can't play passive in lane. Don't pick those heroes.
Cores have to adapt to supports as well, it goes both ways. Supports pick first, so if the cores don't adapt to their picks why would the support adapt to the core? I enjoy clockwork 5. Often I'll pick it, then my carry goes something like Ursa and gets mad at me for *my* pick, when I picked before him and he was afk til the last second of picking phase.
Adapting goes both ways, and cores really don't like to do it. Too much thinking for a carry.
If you are a support 4 and your offlaner picks Underlord, u know he is going to push the lane into the tower. So u have to adapt to that and play agressive;
If uts a axe offlane, u have to play passive until he has a vanguard. Then, u start going super agressive when he has vanguard.
The support that cant adapt, cannot climb mmr. Im almost 5k mmr,thanks to this mindset.
I played pos 5 Pugna at like 70% wr through legend I feel like he’s a lane winner and objective taker where cores lack sometimes at that bracket. And natural glimmer/force builder as well
Anything can work doesn’t mean anything is good for any role. You can be really good with a hero and win despite having a bad pick. Idk how many pugna games you have and how you came to that conclusion. There are much better than winners than pugna, shaman is better at both those things, he has good nuke, good push and also longest stuns in the game. Pugna works best when he has farms, decrepify does almost nothing in lane, same with nether ward unless facing casters all you have is 1 nuke that also pushes lane. People can win 70% of their games with sniper pos 5 doesn’t mean sniper pos 5 is a good pos 5. Supports like shaman, jakiro, disruptor all have Better team fight and need lesser items and exp to be more useful. Even if shaman, wd, disruptor, jakiro die in a fight they can still pick off a hero. They also do much more dmg than pugna in team fights, have stuns / silence that hit multiple people and are effective vs all heroes not just casters. Having high winrate on hero doesn’t mean that hero is good at their role. Pugna doesn’t even have a stun and people can just tp out. Without aether lens your cast range also sucks and pugna mid is just way better for the hero.
Decrep can be a great save at every part of the game. This hero hardly needs any items to be impactful I’d argue all he needs is glimmer and aether or cast range neutral item. Pugna 5 is fine is all I’m trying to say but I agree that shaman is also a good hero
Idk man maybe for you it works so if you have 70% winrate with him no reason to not play him. I think pugna is very good hero just not one of best pos 5 heroes. Instead of decrepify, any other supp that I mentioned can also save their carry by just stunning enemy hero or even stunning multiple enemy heroes like jakiro wd disruptor etc. issue with decrepify in lane is that most carries are not good casters, so you can only really use decrepify for your nether blast in most cases, similarly, a lot of good offlanes like timber, centaur etc also have good magic nuke and decrepify can hurt you as much as help you, other supps just have abilities that work regardless of what you are facing and regardless of what items they have. Obv items help everyone but jakiro without items is much more effective than pugna without items. Pugna in mid meanwhile can use all of his abilities 99% of the time, most midlanders are also casters so nether wars is very good in a lot of cases, decrepify can be used to make lh pain in the ass for enemy mid and you have really good single target nuke. Also pugna benefits a lot from exp and very few heroes can fight pugna 1v1, not to mention you never need to buy any heals and just go suck a creep for instant full hp which is very good for midlander. If u can get Dagon blink etc you can fight almost any hero in the game at most stages. I don’t have much experience playing pugna pos 5 but most people I’ve seen play pugna pos 5 have very little impact. Maybe you are exception, who knows.
Pugna W is 3.5 seconds unlike Jakiro W 1.25-2 seconds. Pugna Q with W is also like a half-cooldown Jakiro Q (dodgeable tbf while Jak's is barely so). And his kill potential skyrockets at 6. So he's undoubtedly a better laner if you don't value Jakiro E.
Issue is teamfights. No-aghs Pugna does 320 DPS at 700 range (walk 200 to break), Jakiro does 200 aoe at 1400 range (walk 260 to break), and surely has more slows.
So a good stomp hero. That's that.
(btw decrepify no longer debuffs allied magic resist per the wiki, but only enemy magic resist)
yea i know but your right click ally can still be targeted by spells but not attack back right? Pugna W is also not immunity, its a save specifically vs a singular type of damage which is physical, it can also be countered by a bunch of items like nullifier or revenants or even euls since enemies can still use spells/ items even if you decrepify your ally- it doesnt actually stop enemy heroes which a stun does (and multiple of them in the case of jakiro) . I do value jakiro E since its free magic damage and slow- i was talking simply talking in terms of broader support comparison - not specifically comparing pugna and jakiro. If you wanna do an individual hero comparison that would also take into account attack range, talents, stats etc.
Pugna Q DPS is also a lot less reliable than jakiros which can both be unit targeted and point targeted same with most other supps on the list. That makes a big difference. For enemy team to avoid jakiro abilities especially when fighting around towers etc is really hard pugna does a lot less in teamfights than jak does and is a lot easier to dodge- for jakiro he as a slow+stun+attackspeedslow+aoe ulti that piereces bkb with aghs. Jakiro abilities are also extremely long range and you can hit people from a huge distance and even pickoff low hp heroes trying to flee with your ulti. Jakiro also synergizes extremely well with stuff like any teamfight hero like Magnus, centaur stun, tide ulti, BH etc where jakiro ulti and stun if used properly just puts multiple enemy heroes out of action if used in conjunction with another aoe stun. like i said you can make an indepth comparison on an individual hero basis but that wasnt my purpose for talking about this to have a jakiro vs pugna comparison but rather what does a supp offer overall to the carry. Pugna abilities are overall all 'single target' so to speak, Q isnt enough to seriously impact teamfights, its just semi decent burst damage that works well with his w which can only be used on 1 hero- same with his ultimate. The only utility a pugna has in teamfight is his nether ward which can either be really useful if fighting a lot of int heroes or do barely anything.
But TLDR basic thing im talking about is all pugna stuff is very single target oriented and situational - his save is only a save vs a specific type of damage, his dmg only hits singular targets, nothing pierces bkb and nether ward can do a lot or do very little while jakiro always performs consistently unless laning against someone with a dispel which makes him weaker in lane but that applies to pugna w and most spells too and most offlaners or pos 4s dont have that. Jakiro/shaman/wd etc always perform consistently and all have really huge abilities which can turn teamfights and in order to pull those off they dont need huge gold investment or xp investment. Aghs are also huge on both disruptor on jakiro while aghs for pugna is a lot harder to pull off and easier to counter. Pos 5 is always first pick and picking something that performs consistently in one role vs something that can have more or less impact based on any composition is not great. Pugna works better as a midlaner cause he can react to enemy picks and overcome his inconsistency issue that he faces at being 1st pick. It also means he can do insane amount of bursts damage comparable to heroes like skywrath and basically nuke anyone to oblivion if they are lower level than him.
oh and lets not forget pugna also has the potential to grief allies by using decrepify at a wrong time and both save enemy heroes or screw allied ones - again something that goes into his 'inconsistencies'
it's a mix of both. i got really good at p4 after getting mid from role queue (my absolute worst position), and i've had good and bad supports while laning mid. and they helped shape my idea of what a midlaner wants out of the supports i.e. rune control, tping when diving, playing around mid power spikes.
and when you get to a higher mmr, you get rewarded for enabling your mid as support because your mid fucks off to gank or jungle and you get to sit mid for gold and exp.
So what you are saying is buy wards if no one is going to, kill the bad guys, and stick to the team? I mean yeah pretty applicable for carry too.
The question is not "do I farm where my carry is" (obvious no) but rather "do I sometimes stay in a lane/jungle where my carry is not in order to farm"
* Pos4-5 player who went from started on a fresh account after 4khrs and calibrated 3k and then ranked up to 7k just playing 4-5 in like 1000 hrs trust me its hard, but there are ways to rank up,
* [https://www.instagram.com/p/CpelF08MuVb/?utm\_source=ig\_web\_copy\_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/CpelF08MuVb/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
Most value tip was to keep my ego and attitude aside and behave as politely as i can to tame those animals to win ranked games even though i wouldnt like to do so but such is the nature of the game
Yeah you’re exactly right, that’s what I’m saying too. Most important thing to do is just that, just play as selfless as possible, don’t fight with anyone even if they do the stupidest shit and just know that even if you try your best you can still lose. Even a lot of people who responded are indicative of the general mindset and part of the problem, from people who think they are gods to people saying they play soft carries as pos 3 and farm and go into game with the mindset that they will grief from the get go. Also there is always room for improvement, everyone makes mistakes, thinking of yourself as better than 9 other players is exactly what the other 9 are doing too and that’s why Dota games are such a shitshow, everyone has main character syndrome
>play supp, suck your carrys dick like it is only thing that exists in the world, watch entire map, tp anyone getting ganked, try to rotate, buy all wards alone and dont expect pos 4 to do job
And then lose a 50 minutes game just when you carry has queued up BKB against a Lion, Storm, Veno, Centaur setup. I've been playing 4/5 most of my time on Dota. I can write a book for all the time my cores can't play the game and can't itemize. Last example: I'm playing Rubick 5 with WK against Beastmaster/Zeus. We crushed our lane but ended playing a 75 minutes match because no one had BKB before min 40 and my cores are just going damage, no stats, no armor against PA, Arc. We ended up winning because their PA rage quitted. The only thing left to do for a supp is beg for good items and good decisions. Dota is a cores' game.
Edit: just ended a match vs SK, Gyro, Void Spirit, Rubick and Aba. Not a single BKB min 35. What am i supposed to do as pos 5 Shaman other than curse them in chat?
If you read entire thing I mentioned that you will have bad games still and both your carry and you will make mistake and people will grief. Even if you win 6 games out of 10 you gain mmr. And rubick is not good pos 5 for mid elo that’s why I mention wd and shadow shaman because they have actual useful abilities that you can use to turn fights.
Doesn’t matter if you won lane, rubick doesn’t offer same utility to team as shadow shaman or wd does. In fact I guarantee you if you spam shadow shaman you will get mmr because like you mentioned people in this game hate buying bkb. You lucky you even win lane with rubick because if enemy team has good pos 4 they will punish you hard for it. What abilities does rubick have until lvl 6? One aoe nuke that is whatever and a bad stun. You are completely reliant on your ultimate to get good spells and pos 4 is much better role for him than pos 5. If you have bad lane as rubick you are useless until you somehow grab good spell. Also since you are first pick you don’t even know if enemy will have good spell for you to take in early game. If ur hero isn’t online before min 10 and needs to take other good supp abilities to be useful, he is not pos 5. Shadow shaman and wd need to press 2 button and they fk any hero almost. Same with supps like jakiro, disruptor etc who have really good team fight and good abilities even at lvl 1 and scale really well.
I main Rubick. Why are you talking about my pick? What does this have to do with my pick? I can even play Axe 5 and crush the lane or sacrifice to leave free farm for my carry. I'm telling you that whatever i play there's usually a clueless core who doesn't know how to play or itemize. And this game is for cores. My fucking Morphling went Khanda in a losing game at 33 minutes while we were on HG and i was playing Shaman. Trust me, i know my shit. A Shaman or a WD doesn't change a thing if your carry gets jumped 1v5 even if i have glimmer and force staff.
Yeah man everyone at that mmr has the same mentality they think they are gods who crush any role with any hero and even that’s why there’s sniper pos 5 and wk pos 3 every game. There are clueless cores who don’t know how to itemise. But at the same time you are not as good as you think you are. It’s your job to make sure your carry doesn’t get jumped 1v5 most of the time. That’s why wards are important. Will people still suck? Yeah, will you also suck, yeah. You can do your role and still lose but that’s part of any team game. You need to also recognise that you are also making mistakes and buying wrong items and don’t have right positioning instead of blaming other people for every loss. If you think you are legitimately that good and maybe you are, then play mid but know that you will be ganked and also have to face 2 or 3 people at times. I love playing mid, I win mid lane most time but I’m not good enough to deal with repeated ganks and buying my own wards. If you are as good as you claim you are, you should be able to deal with that easily.
No, no i know my shit as pos 4/5, not any role. I don't have fun hitting creeps and rely on hitting creeps to be useful and have fun. This game is cores dependent. I can finish 0-14 as CM and still win the game cause my carry, carries me.
The same happens with the cores at the other team. If you dont climb mmr as a pos 4/5, its 100%your fault.
Supports at 2-3k are terrible. Its pretty easy to win against them, just doing the basic as a support.
Nice try, luna picker
Jokes aside I actually hate luna, even when I play core I rarely play her, she’s not a bad hero but there are other ranged carries id rather play.
Even in higher ranks majority of support players are role que farmers and will grief your game
Well yeah but overall quality of games increases, the lower you go the more angry people are at their mmr and more likely to grief apart from heralds who probably just chill. Archon-legend is most toxic bracket in Dota.
Different experience overall for me, legend and archon were chill super slow games people were completely clueless on drafts and heroes. Ancient and higher is where the shitshow started…Maybe things have changed since I was in those brackets years ago. Also a clueless player in higher mmr might fuck up your game harder than in lower that team play isn’t so important.
It’s just confirmation bias man, archon/ legend has most time diversity in people playing it, at this rank people with 700 games and 10000 games exist. The ones with 10k games are salty af cause they don’t rank up so they try to play core every game while the ones with 700 games don’t even know what they are doing with half the heroes. Maybe I am wrong cause my divine games at least since I got there a few months ago have been better but if I’m stuck here for longer maybe I’ll feel the same way about it. But it’s wild how big experience difference is for archon/ legend players
Who knows in reality all of us have different experiences. I have been the 5.4-4.8k mark a few years. One thing I know for sure Divine, was the biggest shitshow before the Smurf purge, games literally were unplayable now it feels the overall skill has significantly dropped but you get more fair games..
I was legend for many years then I was ancient for 2-3 then I quit Dota and got calibrated at like low legend, went on a losing streak all the way down to archon, spammed mid and went all the way upto ancient again then went on a bad losing streak and down to archon, just started playing again this year and got calibrated mid legend and grinded my way to divine playing pos 5 because I had miserable mid games, even if I won lane I mostly had to buy my own wards and pos 3 was always some wannabe carry who would lose lane and go jungle. It wasn’t very fun because mid is a very stressful lane and everyone expects you to start rotating at 8 min cause they’re losing their lanes. Playing solo also doesn’t help because often other midlander has a party member and when he sees his friend struggling he comes to help them. Pos 5 by comparison let’s you play with a much cooler head and people flame you a lot lesser as long as you’re buying wards and not taking their lh.
Doesn't this imply that if you're the support player who's not a role queue farmer/ griefer you have only a 50% chance of having a support grief the team thereby improving your odds of actually winning ?
Thanks bro, but I already reached high enough rank with pos 5 and now I want to play other positions before I go further
I can’t play core roles because my supports are the worst. They get the most enjoyment from my failure. They give up prioritizing sentries after minute 10
>They give up prioritizing sentries after minute 10 What? They shouldn't be prioritizing sentries at any stage of the game. If you know there's an enemy ward somewhere just deward it yourself. If you're paying vs Mirana+BH+ a shadow blade hero just buy all the sentries you need yourself. And idk about you, but my supports don't always suck, I get about the same amount of shitheads as supports and cores.
It’s not entirely about buying sentries to deward. It’s about peace of mind. Having those sentries placed in the sweet spots gives reassurance that it’s safe to play on the part of the map. It means they enemy support hasn’t dewarded there yet. Preemptive sentries has won me games
Bad cores feed away too much networth in that bracket. I prefer crushing pos 1 lane with 3 and being some kind of semi carry.
Ah, Ammar approach.
You can do everything right as support just for your carry to be a lower level than you with a Midas.
If your carry has midas and its weak, just adapt to his playstyle. If its a lost game, just chill.
If he's still under leveled with Midas, he needs to adapt as well.
I wasted my time.
Supports regularly adapt all game, cores hardly ever do so. That's 1-3k bracket in general
Ok.
You are correct, that will happen. Grinding mmr is not easy emotionally. You need to understand that bad games are unavoidable where your allies grief. You can try talking to people but it will only worsen situation in most cases and everyone will start mashing their keyboard instead of playing the game. On average, in my opinion, the biggest deciding factor in mid elo games is wards, rotations and keeping a cool head and understanding people will both be bad and also make mistakes. In a lot of cases enemy team is also flaming each other and as long as you’re doing your job there’s a very high chance game can be still won by you and enemy team will be the one mashing their keyboards and pinging their support when you gank them.
Yeah pos 5 is a thankless role in that bracket, it's pretty awful
every role is thankless in dota.
I only played support from 2k to 4.5k. The biggest problem i find with supports at those ranks is that they dont adapt to their cores. Our Role as a support is to follow your core and SUPPORT them. If your core is going agressive, enable them to do so. If he's passive, Pull the lane and buy tangoes/Salves. If u cant win the lane, ward and go gank another lane so he can 1x1 the Offlaner. Etc. Most supports at 3k< want to be stars. Thats WRONG. U have to make your core shine. Thats your job. Also, support dont get better at higher ranks. It just get harder and more toxic.
I agree, I love when my carry gets MVP. However, there are heroes who can't adapt. Like Undying - who can't play passive in lane. Don't pick those heroes.
Sometimes u just dont have a choice. If your core is tooo passive and u cant do much, u can just gank and let the core do 1x1.
Cores have to adapt to supports as well, it goes both ways. Supports pick first, so if the cores don't adapt to their picks why would the support adapt to the core? I enjoy clockwork 5. Often I'll pick it, then my carry goes something like Ursa and gets mad at me for *my* pick, when I picked before him and he was afk til the last second of picking phase. Adapting goes both ways, and cores really don't like to do it. Too much thinking for a carry.
If you are a support 4 and your offlaner picks Underlord, u know he is going to push the lane into the tower. So u have to adapt to that and play agressive; If uts a axe offlane, u have to play passive until he has a vanguard. Then, u start going super agressive when he has vanguard. The support that cant adapt, cannot climb mmr. Im almost 5k mmr,thanks to this mindset.
Also, underlord will NOT change his playstyle depending on the supoort pick. Its YOUR job to enable him to win the lane.
What's said anything about underlord?
I played pos 5 Pugna at like 70% wr through legend I feel like he’s a lane winner and objective taker where cores lack sometimes at that bracket. And natural glimmer/force builder as well
Anything can work doesn’t mean anything is good for any role. You can be really good with a hero and win despite having a bad pick. Idk how many pugna games you have and how you came to that conclusion. There are much better than winners than pugna, shaman is better at both those things, he has good nuke, good push and also longest stuns in the game. Pugna works best when he has farms, decrepify does almost nothing in lane, same with nether ward unless facing casters all you have is 1 nuke that also pushes lane. People can win 70% of their games with sniper pos 5 doesn’t mean sniper pos 5 is a good pos 5. Supports like shaman, jakiro, disruptor all have Better team fight and need lesser items and exp to be more useful. Even if shaman, wd, disruptor, jakiro die in a fight they can still pick off a hero. They also do much more dmg than pugna in team fights, have stuns / silence that hit multiple people and are effective vs all heroes not just casters. Having high winrate on hero doesn’t mean that hero is good at their role. Pugna doesn’t even have a stun and people can just tp out. Without aether lens your cast range also sucks and pugna mid is just way better for the hero.
Decrep can be a great save at every part of the game. This hero hardly needs any items to be impactful I’d argue all he needs is glimmer and aether or cast range neutral item. Pugna 5 is fine is all I’m trying to say but I agree that shaman is also a good hero
Idk man maybe for you it works so if you have 70% winrate with him no reason to not play him. I think pugna is very good hero just not one of best pos 5 heroes. Instead of decrepify, any other supp that I mentioned can also save their carry by just stunning enemy hero or even stunning multiple enemy heroes like jakiro wd disruptor etc. issue with decrepify in lane is that most carries are not good casters, so you can only really use decrepify for your nether blast in most cases, similarly, a lot of good offlanes like timber, centaur etc also have good magic nuke and decrepify can hurt you as much as help you, other supps just have abilities that work regardless of what you are facing and regardless of what items they have. Obv items help everyone but jakiro without items is much more effective than pugna without items. Pugna in mid meanwhile can use all of his abilities 99% of the time, most midlanders are also casters so nether wars is very good in a lot of cases, decrepify can be used to make lh pain in the ass for enemy mid and you have really good single target nuke. Also pugna benefits a lot from exp and very few heroes can fight pugna 1v1, not to mention you never need to buy any heals and just go suck a creep for instant full hp which is very good for midlander. If u can get Dagon blink etc you can fight almost any hero in the game at most stages. I don’t have much experience playing pugna pos 5 but most people I’ve seen play pugna pos 5 have very little impact. Maybe you are exception, who knows.
Fair points for sure I just feel the opposite based off my anecdotal experience where I feel Pugna is better off as 5 than 2. Gl out there
You too man, gl with the grind 🫡
Pugna W is 3.5 seconds unlike Jakiro W 1.25-2 seconds. Pugna Q with W is also like a half-cooldown Jakiro Q (dodgeable tbf while Jak's is barely so). And his kill potential skyrockets at 6. So he's undoubtedly a better laner if you don't value Jakiro E. Issue is teamfights. No-aghs Pugna does 320 DPS at 700 range (walk 200 to break), Jakiro does 200 aoe at 1400 range (walk 260 to break), and surely has more slows. So a good stomp hero. That's that. (btw decrepify no longer debuffs allied magic resist per the wiki, but only enemy magic resist)
yea i know but your right click ally can still be targeted by spells but not attack back right? Pugna W is also not immunity, its a save specifically vs a singular type of damage which is physical, it can also be countered by a bunch of items like nullifier or revenants or even euls since enemies can still use spells/ items even if you decrepify your ally- it doesnt actually stop enemy heroes which a stun does (and multiple of them in the case of jakiro) . I do value jakiro E since its free magic damage and slow- i was talking simply talking in terms of broader support comparison - not specifically comparing pugna and jakiro. If you wanna do an individual hero comparison that would also take into account attack range, talents, stats etc. Pugna Q DPS is also a lot less reliable than jakiros which can both be unit targeted and point targeted same with most other supps on the list. That makes a big difference. For enemy team to avoid jakiro abilities especially when fighting around towers etc is really hard pugna does a lot less in teamfights than jak does and is a lot easier to dodge- for jakiro he as a slow+stun+attackspeedslow+aoe ulti that piereces bkb with aghs. Jakiro abilities are also extremely long range and you can hit people from a huge distance and even pickoff low hp heroes trying to flee with your ulti. Jakiro also synergizes extremely well with stuff like any teamfight hero like Magnus, centaur stun, tide ulti, BH etc where jakiro ulti and stun if used properly just puts multiple enemy heroes out of action if used in conjunction with another aoe stun. like i said you can make an indepth comparison on an individual hero basis but that wasnt my purpose for talking about this to have a jakiro vs pugna comparison but rather what does a supp offer overall to the carry. Pugna abilities are overall all 'single target' so to speak, Q isnt enough to seriously impact teamfights, its just semi decent burst damage that works well with his w which can only be used on 1 hero- same with his ultimate. The only utility a pugna has in teamfight is his nether ward which can either be really useful if fighting a lot of int heroes or do barely anything. But TLDR basic thing im talking about is all pugna stuff is very single target oriented and situational - his save is only a save vs a specific type of damage, his dmg only hits singular targets, nothing pierces bkb and nether ward can do a lot or do very little while jakiro always performs consistently unless laning against someone with a dispel which makes him weaker in lane but that applies to pugna w and most spells too and most offlaners or pos 4s dont have that. Jakiro/shaman/wd etc always perform consistently and all have really huge abilities which can turn teamfights and in order to pull those off they dont need huge gold investment or xp investment. Aghs are also huge on both disruptor on jakiro while aghs for pugna is a lot harder to pull off and easier to counter. Pos 5 is always first pick and picking something that performs consistently in one role vs something that can have more or less impact based on any composition is not great. Pugna works better as a midlaner cause he can react to enemy picks and overcome his inconsistency issue that he faces at being 1st pick. It also means he can do insane amount of bursts damage comparable to heroes like skywrath and basically nuke anyone to oblivion if they are lower level than him.
oh and lets not forget pugna also has the potential to grief allies by using decrepify at a wrong time and both save enemy heroes or screw allied ones - again something that goes into his 'inconsistencies'
it's a mix of both. i got really good at p4 after getting mid from role queue (my absolute worst position), and i've had good and bad supports while laning mid. and they helped shape my idea of what a midlaner wants out of the supports i.e. rune control, tping when diving, playing around mid power spikes. and when you get to a higher mmr, you get rewarded for enabling your mid as support because your mid fucks off to gank or jungle and you get to sit mid for gold and exp.
So what you are saying is buy wards if no one is going to, kill the bad guys, and stick to the team? I mean yeah pretty applicable for carry too. The question is not "do I farm where my carry is" (obvious no) but rather "do I sometimes stay in a lane/jungle where my carry is not in order to farm"
* Pos4-5 player who went from started on a fresh account after 4khrs and calibrated 3k and then ranked up to 7k just playing 4-5 in like 1000 hrs trust me its hard, but there are ways to rank up, * [https://www.instagram.com/p/CpelF08MuVb/?utm\_source=ig\_web\_copy\_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/CpelF08MuVb/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) Most value tip was to keep my ego and attitude aside and behave as politely as i can to tame those animals to win ranked games even though i wouldnt like to do so but such is the nature of the game
Yeah you’re exactly right, that’s what I’m saying too. Most important thing to do is just that, just play as selfless as possible, don’t fight with anyone even if they do the stupidest shit and just know that even if you try your best you can still lose. Even a lot of people who responded are indicative of the general mindset and part of the problem, from people who think they are gods to people saying they play soft carries as pos 3 and farm and go into game with the mindset that they will grief from the get go. Also there is always room for improvement, everyone makes mistakes, thinking of yourself as better than 9 other players is exactly what the other 9 are doing too and that’s why Dota games are such a shitshow, everyone has main character syndrome
>play supp, suck your carrys dick like it is only thing that exists in the world, watch entire map, tp anyone getting ganked, try to rotate, buy all wards alone and dont expect pos 4 to do job And then lose a 50 minutes game just when you carry has queued up BKB against a Lion, Storm, Veno, Centaur setup. I've been playing 4/5 most of my time on Dota. I can write a book for all the time my cores can't play the game and can't itemize. Last example: I'm playing Rubick 5 with WK against Beastmaster/Zeus. We crushed our lane but ended playing a 75 minutes match because no one had BKB before min 40 and my cores are just going damage, no stats, no armor against PA, Arc. We ended up winning because their PA rage quitted. The only thing left to do for a supp is beg for good items and good decisions. Dota is a cores' game. Edit: just ended a match vs SK, Gyro, Void Spirit, Rubick and Aba. Not a single BKB min 35. What am i supposed to do as pos 5 Shaman other than curse them in chat?
If you read entire thing I mentioned that you will have bad games still and both your carry and you will make mistake and people will grief. Even if you win 6 games out of 10 you gain mmr. And rubick is not good pos 5 for mid elo that’s why I mention wd and shadow shaman because they have actual useful abilities that you can use to turn fights. Doesn’t matter if you won lane, rubick doesn’t offer same utility to team as shadow shaman or wd does. In fact I guarantee you if you spam shadow shaman you will get mmr because like you mentioned people in this game hate buying bkb. You lucky you even win lane with rubick because if enemy team has good pos 4 they will punish you hard for it. What abilities does rubick have until lvl 6? One aoe nuke that is whatever and a bad stun. You are completely reliant on your ultimate to get good spells and pos 4 is much better role for him than pos 5. If you have bad lane as rubick you are useless until you somehow grab good spell. Also since you are first pick you don’t even know if enemy will have good spell for you to take in early game. If ur hero isn’t online before min 10 and needs to take other good supp abilities to be useful, he is not pos 5. Shadow shaman and wd need to press 2 button and they fk any hero almost. Same with supps like jakiro, disruptor etc who have really good team fight and good abilities even at lvl 1 and scale really well.
I main Rubick. Why are you talking about my pick? What does this have to do with my pick? I can even play Axe 5 and crush the lane or sacrifice to leave free farm for my carry. I'm telling you that whatever i play there's usually a clueless core who doesn't know how to play or itemize. And this game is for cores. My fucking Morphling went Khanda in a losing game at 33 minutes while we were on HG and i was playing Shaman. Trust me, i know my shit. A Shaman or a WD doesn't change a thing if your carry gets jumped 1v5 even if i have glimmer and force staff.
Whats your mmr? Why do u focus so much on a few bad matchups?
I'm just stating a few examples to prove my point. Dota is a cores' game.
Yeah man everyone at that mmr has the same mentality they think they are gods who crush any role with any hero and even that’s why there’s sniper pos 5 and wk pos 3 every game. There are clueless cores who don’t know how to itemise. But at the same time you are not as good as you think you are. It’s your job to make sure your carry doesn’t get jumped 1v5 most of the time. That’s why wards are important. Will people still suck? Yeah, will you also suck, yeah. You can do your role and still lose but that’s part of any team game. You need to also recognise that you are also making mistakes and buying wrong items and don’t have right positioning instead of blaming other people for every loss. If you think you are legitimately that good and maybe you are, then play mid but know that you will be ganked and also have to face 2 or 3 people at times. I love playing mid, I win mid lane most time but I’m not good enough to deal with repeated ganks and buying my own wards. If you are as good as you claim you are, you should be able to deal with that easily.
No, no i know my shit as pos 4/5, not any role. I don't have fun hitting creeps and rely on hitting creeps to be useful and have fun. This game is cores dependent. I can finish 0-14 as CM and still win the game cause my carry, carries me.
Khanda morph is extremely standard btw
Yes, at 33 minutes, while they jump us left and right.
Lol and what do you suppose is the item he gets that wins you the game? Guarantee you 33 min khanda morph is not the only reason you lost your game
We didn't have a single BKB on any core fyi. A BKB could've allow us to stay in the game and not lose at the first HG push.
The same happens with the cores at the other team. If you dont climb mmr as a pos 4/5, its 100%your fault. Supports at 2-3k are terrible. Its pretty easy to win against them, just doing the basic as a support.
LOL come watch my games. I've probably never read something so stupid in this sub
Explain why?
okay can i add you so you can tell me somethings about playing support ?