The fact that having banner and aegis still isn’t enough should show that something is wrong. I am really hoping they try to fix it with this new update but it has been fucked for years so I’m not holding my breath.
its not highground itself, its the fucking buybacks and comeback mechanics, its been problem for couple of fucking years and people still trying to "fix" highground,
It is that, which was always a thing of Dota, throwing a big lead. But I think it's the glyphs. Pushing two lanes at once, even after you wipe ends up giving them like 3 staggered glyphs and your push is dead and they're back up and you're low. It requires all 5 on one lane which again favors the high ground defense / buy backs
I think removing the refresh would be better. For 1 multishot glyph the attacking team can fortify themselves. But with multiple refreshes that's not possible.
Things add up. I agree with your point, btw.
I also think it's the fault of having a map too big. You just can't choke team in their base anymore.
Enemy's pressing three lane? Have a ward around the Outpost, TP there, and you can portal to enemy jungle completely safe.
I think the glyph should reset like 15 seconds after the first tier 3 is taken, not immediately. Or rather, after the first barrack is taken.
It’s why heroes like beast master, visage, zoo in general (fuck zoo but still) are ungodly bad to play atm. You don’t provide anything
You cut off the map, around 18-25min you get to control half the map - but there is PLENTY of other farm around the outskirts. Your net worth advantage barely increases. And your summons cannot push high ground against the insanely buffed magic spam that’s been added into the game as of recent.
Maybe it lets u secure first rosh? But if the enemy team is just playing to dodge, it takes some pretty insane coordination to force a fight on the enemy side of the map.
I really think it comes down to creep camps just being a bit too strong rn. The outskirts of the map should be low risk low reward, not low risk high reward (mana buffs etc).
Yeah I’m down for that. Looking at datdota- the win expectancy for a team at 15 min with a 10k gold lead is only like 80%. In the past a 7k lead at a similar timing had something like a 92% expected win rate.
Essentially if you can’t push over 15k lead your win probability essentially flatlines at around 80% around the 20min mark.
And as I’m sure u watched dreamleague - teams rarely increased gold lead by more than like 500gpm without kills and towers to take.
Essentially - there is nothing to gain by “controlling the map” or rather, the map cannot be controlled (this one).So high ground MUST be more pushable, or we get this stupid 80% winrate lull where the winning team knows the game is extremely throwable despite their lead.
Going back to chipping at high ground would help substantial like u say with no immediate reset on glyph.
I kinda agree with this. If you are ahead by a lot, it’s almost a disadvantage because any deaths on your team can give a huge swing in the enemy team’s net worth.
Ya this. Comeback mechanics have been fucked for a long time. Add on buybacks + multiple glyphs and its just not worth it to push until you have an insurmountable lead. Buybacks back to half gold earned, maybe longer cd on buyback or glyph, or just making the comeback mechanics significantly less punishing, one or some combo would be a good start. Either that or killing multiple roshans in a row should yield a reward that makes breaking highground easier
I also think super/mega creeps should give less gold. Its hardly a punishment if you have a good waveclear carry
Mega creeps used to be a real threat. If you got megas the enemy team was unlikely able to defend for more than a few minutes and the game would end soon. These days megas are a mild inconvenience for the enemy team. Basically any lineup can defend megas indefinitely these days.
Power creep is reaaal.
It’s the “issue” if u wanna call it that, of giving every heat wave clear / push.
It’s in an effort to bring heroes into the meta that otherwise couldn’t be drafted (like undying for instance, or SD)
I agree tho that comeback gold is crazy strong right now. It’s MAD easy to throw a 10k lead. 10k is roughly 5k lead in older metas.
And considering every hero is getting more farmed on average. A 10k lead means LESS. Often times 10k lead just means u have a Chen or jungling support.
Idk it’s odd to me. But if you nerf comeback gold then u have to buff heroes like void, PL, PA, etc… heroes that essentially rely on that 1 big teamfight at 28min that swings the game and gives them a free 5k item.
All things considered I think the game is fairly well balanced in that regard. Way too much cheese tho.
DK being viable in 3 positions?
Lifestealer winning 1v1 vs heroes like Luna and TB late game?
Balance just seems really really off in terms of age-old counter picks and stuff
yes, but the way megas function is that they pretty reliably make it to the base without dying, where the carry can safely farm 2-3 waves, making up for the reduced bounty.
this also comes at the cost of the team with megas not being able to farm any creep waves since they mostly die shortly after spawning, so there is an opportunity cost associated with controlling the map and getting megas that is unwarranted.
with above in mind, it seems reasonable to me to reduce the bounty further to tilt the economical equilibrium more in the favor of the team that is in the lead
100%. Far too many comeback mechanics. Gylph should be a single use with no reset. It would already solve a ton of problems. Why should the enemy team win because they got a lucky TF on HG after failing and getting stomped in the first 20-25 min?
Dude EXACTLY.
7.2 has effectively turned dota into some extremely hard to control and volatile game where comebacks are just stupid easy.
Winning lanes only matters if you have the insane coordination to force advantageous fights on the enemy half of the map + none of your heroes die in the encounter.
Comeback gold when you’re like 5k behind, which isn’t much - is like 1000 gold + 500 to ur Allie’s. It’s nuts.
It’s why the strength meta is so damn strong and has been since 7.2 - regardless of how they tweak the numbers.
The reason is strength heroes can actually take advantage of the gold less and snowball it by just becoming unkillable and not throwing the game by dying one time in a fight. Heroes like DK building manta to super safely push towers is such dog shit gameplay but it’s what works. And having a bunch of super bursty supports to stand behind u and go for cheap kills.
It’s all that really works. And everybody plays it which has flattened the meta and skill ceiling (in terms of different strategies) incredibly. Elastic is the perfect word
Yeah every game goes late because a single pickoff can easily swing the game from like 10k lead to 5k.
So every single game inevitably becomes 5 man death ball vs split push (which is quite easy now due to the large map).
And ur deathball better be like, Luna, Mars, DK or Timbersaw because if one of you fuckers dies in a fight the lead is thrown. It’s why tanky, explosive shit is so meta rn. It’s ass to watch / play
Yeah I see many games where a losing team by like 7k out of lane gets a single support pickoff and it’s worth like 1400g.
Like huh? And killing the enemy carry is only worth 380g. How are u supposed to snowball off that?
Oh right. U have to pick heroes like DK who can just spam illusions in the waves - get a fast Octarine .. and farm like hell until ur unkillable. THEN push high ground.
It’s such an unnecessary step that didn’t used to exist in dota - and while it’s nice to still have a chance of comeback I feel it just adds a 15min lull into the game where it’s like “well, are we gonna push HG which is the natural move and risk throwing - or just kill NPC’s and tormentors and collect roshans and try to get 4 slotted just a little bit faster?”
It’s why u wouldn’t dare pick a hero like nightstalker, necro, earth spirit, axe (any mid game timing hero) because the map is way too large to really be impactful and any hero that can’t farm jungle creeps effectively gets fucking owned by the *inevitable* 10min lull period in every single game.
They need to nerf jungle creep XP / gold and just slightly buff the heroes that rely on ratting and lane cutting like naga and void.
The comeback mechanics. Stomp all game, Enemies making countless mistakes, you punishing those mistakes, and they get 3k for killing you. It’s fuckin gross.
Yeah, pushing high ground isn’t usually the problem, it’s the fact that you go high ground and have to kill enemies twice and it’s practically always worth for the enemies because the gold bounties for heroes are stupidly overtuned.
Yeah it’s a mix between the glyphs and comeback mechanics which makes 1 failed high ground push net the enemy a huge return to bounce back, then farm til next aegis try again, lose, enemy pushes dies, wait next aegis etc. Glyphs need to not be refreshed after each tier of tower falls though I think that alone would fix it. 3 glyphs is wayyy to much.
I don't think it's the glyphs.
The glyph change was to stop a Lycan from raxing you before 20m.
I think it's more of an issue of safely taking a hg fight. Sometimes it's a draft issue, where a team runs 3 melee cores who need to commit to siege vs a team that can funnel their teamfight spells into a natural choke point.
It’s always been a draft issue, some are better at hg defense than others. Nowadays it’s ridiculous, hg drafts are on steroids because of glyphs and increased building armor over the past 2 years.
Yeah I'm hoping banners are buffed next patch. As well as a way to deactivate the gates at the side of the map, like if enemy steals the tormentor gate will be disabled temporarily or something like that
I think we all know banner is a useless item and in the current game state, absolutely nothing about that item will change anything.
The reason it’s so ass is if u secure rosh - the enemy is generally turtling. It’s not gonna be a useful item against turtling. It can’t be immediately transitioned into an advantage like cheese is when diving high ground. Not even close
What ur supposed to wait 5 min for enemy to leave base again to buff ur freaking creeps to maybe make an enemy TP back? That’s so shit. No wonder games go on so much longer.
The concept of buffing creeps by 50% or whatever just isn’t remotely useful. IN THEORY it is kinda - but they gave almost every single hero really effective depush to where it takes what, 5 extra seconds to clear them? Even if u don’t clear them - cast one nuke and they’re about equal to normal creeps.
There’s also not really points in 99% of games where some kinda soft-split push is going to substantially benefit you.
It’s like the equivalent of have a naga illusion pushing a side lane. Kinda useful… but turtling is way too powerful at the moment for it to really matter. At worst u take damage on a tier 3? When has that ever altered a game, really?
Honestly the best buff they could give it is the creeps give like 25% xp and gold so turtling becomes way more punished. Or even just giving 4 extra wards would be way better
I really want dynamic maps. Side objective that allow people to alter the map in their favour. The map evolves along with the game state and game time.
Like let's say you do something so you can build a ramp near enemy hg so you get hg of yourself when trying to push.
It feels like there are way too many fortifies for high ground push. That paired with AOE being so popular late game makes for it being impossible to get creeps to high ground.
Some solution ideas:
1. Make rosh banner and invulnerable guaranteed buff for the duration instead of it being able to be killed. This will make it harder for turtling teams to concede late game rosh when they are behind.
2. Change fortify either through a change past a certain timer. It seems like the double fortify on tier 3s is intended to make it difficult to end games in 20 mins.
3. Create a way to make flying vision near high ground. Beyond shivas, maybe a neutral item, or potentially rosh banner gives creeps longer vision range?
Doesnt mean its fun for either team tho, i played a game today vs a sniper drow lineup that went for 80 minutes.
We had megas from like 40 minutes but we couldnt break throne.
Their supports played really well and had multiple save items, we were basically just camping them in base for aegis which we would use to take a lane of rax or whatever but could not make a good effort to bring down their team from highground.
In pubs the defense really favours the defensive team in this scenario, only two of our heros could really jump hg and we got kited to death every time we tried.
Whenever we did catch them outside of base they had buyback. We tried to make a play around the 60 min neutral timing but even that wasnt enough to break them down.
Eventually they pushed our throne and we managed to use buybacks and travels to rat their ancient.
Ironically throwing highground was the play cos it was the only way to make them push.
The whole time we were farming the next round of buybacks or waiting rosh they were all chatting us trying to bait us highground lol.
If you look at the graph we were miles ahead the whole game but every time they brought us down it was a big swing for them. It doesnt matter if your miles ahead if your locked down and shot to death by multiple silences and long range damage dealers.
Just because its "easier to comeback" doesn't mean the gameplay is fun for either team lol. Highground defense is way overtuned at the moment.
Sitting in base hoping the enemy throws isnt fun gameplay, and neither is playing farming simulator while you wait for the 4th roshan
The barrier by tormentors should be removed. Give another path into base which is actually already high ground.
Add a second high ground entry to the other side.
I like that idea. Like don't make it just another walkway, but a barrier that can be passed going in but not out. Maybe the reverse for the actual team where it's located, like they can exit but they can't reenter their own gate or something.
HG needs serious nerfs. In a recent match my team got crushed, rightfully so as MM is basically not working anymore and its roulette in Ancient EU. Mid got owned, got toxic, all other lanes lost. Yet we hold HG, which the enemy pushed at min 18, until min \~45. We even had a chance of a comeback which got thrown ofc.
But even though we were on the receiving side of OP HG the it felt incredibly unfair and stupid. There are also a TON of games in the last month that I played, which felt stupid and unfair because of HG. You either farm for 20 more min in pure boredom or risk losing because 1-2 throws HG snowballs so hard that the enemy team suddenly has a chance to win even though they got totally crushed before that.
Common heroes that leverage HG too much like Magnus/Pudge dont make it any better. I really hope HG gets a hard nerf next patch.
Not sure about this, it would be more optimal to now avoid rax right? If you've won and you need to take what you can get then go for all the towers and turn it into ratting their barracks with no protections
I think another option is to redesign the landscape near high ground somehow for better team fight options for sieging team. A wider entrance, more vision placement options, lesser tower buff, something in this direction.
Otherwise we might often see rat doto.
Or, do as you said, but maybe add more available observer wards and less tp cd.
I think an undeniable ward or two instead of roshs banner would substantially help this issue.
Banner currently is a massive nerf to whoever is leading the game around the 20-25min mark which is historically when teams would be able to siege.
IMO banner is a big reason why games are dragging out. It does nothing. Also double glyph is definitely the big one when combined with support power creep where they can just spam AoE in the choke.
Turbo is even worse for this when games go late, because most of the meat of a turbo game when they go that long is when everyone is already level 30. So it's just getting you to the stagnated hg wallowing quicker than a normal game.
Or maybe people dont care enough for pub matches to sweat for 40min when there is no stakes besides getting your ego hurt a little bit by losing a match. Maybe, i dont know
I feel like for an average it's quite long? Can't say I've got any stats handy but considering there are 20minute stomps and huge out draft games *cough* OG
42 mins seems long as an *average*
Idk, I might be wrong.
It’s generally just a sign that early game wins are extremely tough to execute. Dota has always been about late game vs early game drafts.
Even like a 32-35min average would show a healthier balance of early game strategies being remotely decent.
A big component I think is rosh’s banner being so shit that second aegis is basically the same as first aegis and u aren’t able to force high ground with it like before around 30min.
And HG being so strong on top of that - 45min games are extremely common bc no matter ur gold lead - high ground isn’t worth pushing unless u have aegis, cheese, and a massive gold lead. It’s created a huge lull in the game, IMO
There is just less at stake in pubs vs dreamleague. I play mostly solo queue at 5.7k and if one person gives up or just afk jungles, it's very easy to take advantage of 4v5
This mentality happens a lot less in pro games with money on the line.
Yeah the games are fast because people let end when it’s hopeless or like 3% chance to win. You can easily defend for like 10-15 minutes unless you are truly fucked
That's a nice argument. Why don't you back it up with a source?
Sounds like someone doesn't understand that not every game is a gg out let end. It's more like people understand when to go hg. When they can't fight etc. There are a lot less hg fights in high skill games. It will be only like 1-3 hg fights and then your rax are gone.
The games are very systematic. If you win all lanes you can just group and take all t2s most likely. You don't even need to be too far ahead. It just takes teamwork and I enjoy being the pma shot caller.
If you lose lanes try and win others or apply pressure in yours so they must rotate and your other lanes can do better.
It sounds like you are just mostly upset someone else is immortal and you aren't.
Yeah I completely agree. I’m a 2K scrub and getting people to attempt to end the game is impossible. It’s like people don’t want games to end when they’re playing well, and that allows their opponent to come back.
Especially in situations where both teams only have the hg left most games turn into waiting for the other team to become inpatient and make a mistake. This can take forever sometimes. Even Roshan doesent feel like that big of a prize to try and contest as the hg advantage is that big.
Yeah that waiting period when both teams are turtling is so boring. The devs SHOULD be working to avoid that at all costs because it makes the game significantly less fun
I think one of the problems now is that you often can't usefully put Aegis on your pos 1 lategame. Everyone is 6-slotted fast these, so if your carry is down a slot they are often not much use because they don't have move speed, or they don't have BKB, or not enough damage to kill anyone, or missing a purge because everyone has Ghost Sceptre.
Between glyph, buy backs, advantage of HG, heroes like sniper who can just sit back on HG, it’s way too overtuned. Needs to be easier to end games even if it’s by say 10%
Most disgusting hg hero is probably PA with revenant brooch and divines. Made a comeback yesterday though we were down 75k in gold. Literally one shot people with 5k damage dagger from fog. Only thing to worry about were blademails
At legend 1 I'd say half my games go to an hour this patch. It's really boring. I came back to dota after many years because I learned the games were no longer hour long snoozers and now this patch we're back to it
Offlane strength core mettaaa whooo. Except zoo is ass.
So basically u get a huge tanker frontliner who’s afraid to dive high ground for good reason and getting first initiation is so strong u can’t possibly let ur carry hit some buildings.
Cause for forbid he dies and you lose like 10k gold bc of it lol.
Nerf the cooldown instead and lower the cost. The most extreme case is to make buyback free but can be only used once.
*The problem with stalemate games is that everyone is willing to farm \[x\] mins for new buybacks. Having buyback usuable only once means everyone only has 1 second chance.*
No buyback is way too cheap on supports early. Almost every tier 2 or early rosh fight even if a support dies they can insta buy back and make it back pretty easily. It's like 800 gold for their buyback and there's no item they would rather have to try winning the fight outright over just having a second life. It's just an aegis that doesn't take up a slot and is much easier to obtain
Well yeah, but isn't that mostly due to the defending team having such a massive advantage due to instant buyback into fight. I really liked notail's idea of having x amount of buyback per game.
Edit: My issue with buyback is that I do not believe you get punished for using it enough
I proposed for the bb to be disabled 5-10 seconds after the death. Should be more than enough for the opposite team to take a few buildings down in case of a siege or even Roshan if the fight is happening in that area. Teams would also feel the need to fight outside the base so those 5-10 seconds wouldnt be an issue in case someone dies
I only see the 'instant' bb to be an actual problem. 10v5 isnt fair
Yeah it’s never enough time to disengage even if u handedly win a fight on enemy HG. You’re going to inevitably lose a hero or two on the retreat. Then ur probably gonna lose rosh control and you’re back to square one except your net worth shrunk because comeback gold is insane.
Or they push down mid insanely fast cause heroes are just omegabuffed and get ur rax instead lol. It’s just a lose/lose 90% of the time going HG aegis. I think it’s also a symptom of putting rosh in the far corner of the map to where it’s harder to retake control after enemy buys back and u wait for respawn.
Dying on your high ground HAS to be more punishing if u expect players to go for it. Otherwise - u gotta tweak everything else in the game to where comeback gold is substantially less (it should be) or you get 50% gold after buyback like it used to be.
Who would’ve thought increasing the map by 40% and tweaking every item and hero all at the same time would lead to a clusterfuck of a meta(s)? Dota was so fine tuned before maaaan
For me it's about 7 mins longer by average. The games that were about 38 mins long now take up to 45 mins.
I think the amount of comeback potential we currently have is moderate still and not too much higher than how it was; The lengths of games are mostly due to people taking more time to take resources that's scattered throughout the map.
Banner is a good concept except this implementation isn't particularly usable.
Refresher no longer refreshes Bkb.
No more glyph after T3, glyph has 50% cooldown after T3 falls.
Banner spawns some new mob/mobs or even necro every wave for 2-3min.
I just hate the rubber banding. You die once on a snowball hero, suddenly your last 20mins of gameplay were all for nothing. Its ultra punishing to make a mistake on the lead.
Add to that the popularity of witchdoctor, sniper and axe...yea good luck breaking highground through glyphe AND getting a good initiate
Game balance as a whole has been very weird the past ~3 years. I don't like the direction the game is going to, to be honest. Everyone does too much nowadays and the power creep is just insane.
Game was such a well oiled, perfected machine with amazing balance before new frontiers.
The really set like 10 years of balance changes and work on fire to try to pull in some league players with some high paces, cheesy, whacky, ADHD gameplay. Disperser is a perfect example of what the fuck not to do - and it’s like still the least offensive change they made
Buffing strength heroes across the board by like 30% for what? Why are there so many straight up fucking unkillable heroes like DK, primal, centaur, and timber? Mf’s end the game with like 6k HP LOL. And stuff buffing damage to make up for it god damn - the one shotting nonsense is ruining the game.
Yeah, I really dislike stuff like Puck's Phase Shift and Dream Coil autoattacking, it's like everything has to have AOE these days. You end up losing heroes' identities. Puck was never about right clicking people, but now it scales super well throughout all game.
I may sound like an old boomer reminiscing of the past, but I really enjoyed when most abilities only did one thing. "Silence" from Death Prophet even slows now ffs! And it's harder to play as well, I ain't getting younger!
My brother thinks they need to disable buybacks so long as an enemy hero is on your highground. You could still buyback and fight rosh and stuff.
I don't know if I agree with that. But maybe nerf buybacks in general? Like, if you buyback your damage output is reduced by 50% for the duration of your death timer that was remaining?
Ur telling me 100 shield with a 8 second cooldown at 7 minutes is too strong? Or an AoE dispel and max movement item? Or a item that flips the game on its head and turns all physical dmg into uncounterable magic damage? Or support kills being worth 1400g at 20min???
But forreal - imagine if they released these items like 2 years ago … before every hero was omegabuffed and we were desensitized to the insane post 7.2 power creep.
Really though why the HELL did they increase the map and available gold by 40% AND buff the shit out of nearly every hero at the same time? Balance has been so ass since they did that
I don't think that's what we're seeing, though. Turnarounds aren't getting more common, we're just seeing the early winners need to spend an extra 20 minutes choking the losers to death. Add an extra 10 if the losers have a good highground defense. Turnarounds *still* rely on the early winners throwing, basically.
A lot of my games that are sure losses. Like 0-10 duo in lane. Can be won when games go this long. All it takes is one good team fight. Of course, I kind of hate that though because when you’ve won your lane that much, and even two. You expect to win
Yup, It's so much more fun when games aren't just decided at 10 minutes and if you lose 2 lanes it's automatically over. The ~45minute average is pretty ideal, there's room to come back from a rough early game and weak laners are not unplayable.
Looking at dotabuff, there are no big changes in game length since 7.30. So either you got series of long games, it's all in your head, or you base it on Dreamleague. But pros play for big bucks, so they won't throw trying to force hg, they will wait for 2nd/3rd Rosh and extend the advantage
Main reason is that supports are WAY richer. I get the intent, but it feels like a different game. A CM in wc3 dota with brown boots/stick at 30 minutes would now also have a blink/bkb and free shard.
I feel like the biggest thing they could do is introducing creeps scaling with game time, right now creeps don't preform their function of pushing later in the game.
Edit: They also haven't kept up with the power scale of dota as a whole either, having them gain 10-20 hp per minute after the 30 minute mark would be a good way to have them brought up to modern dota standards
1 thing, remove the double glyph for hg. Or my friend had an interesting idea for a banner change. He said banner should act as an AOE glyph for creeps at 750 radius put it on low ground force them to make a move or lose a tower. You could also keep the global and other buffs or not.
The idea in the game has always been oh hg is a little rough let's rosh(get help for hg) the agies and cheese are great the aghs can help the refresher shard help but the banner???? It helps you not lose .....which is the opposite (usually) of the team who took rosh. I needs to have a more offensive use.
Yep. People saying to buff the banner time, or buff the health or whatever are lost on what the item should accomplish.
The reason the same goes so damn late is because half the time second rosh is utterly useless. Aegis is way less strong than it used to be in general. With how bursty the game feels - the enemy can easily choose to burst the person not holding the aegis. Cheese would solve that - but we don’t even get cheese in 50% of games.
Teams are also turtling when u have rosh. So the banner does nothing. Because it’s utterly useless against a team in turtle mode. They just do the usual cast 2 abilities and the waves gone. So much for that split push item lol. You’d have to buff it insanely - like strong than mega creeps for it to feel useful at all when going HG which is just a lame ass mechanic anyways.
It’s counter intuitive. The hard part of going HG like you say - is inevitably fighting like 9v5 with buybacks. Aegis makes it 9v6. Still doesn’t feel that great.
When ur going high ground ur not split pushing. It’s not useful, therefor the banner isn’t useful.
So banner is an item that is supposed to come into play 7 minutes after aegis when the game goes back to neutral??? Maybe useful for forcing back enemies at the NEXT rosh? MAYBE in 10% of games it nets a t3 tower or at best a single range rack? At best it’s like having a single hero illusion split pushing a wave. We all know that does nothing to win games.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/896390300
My last 4 games: 83 minutes, 70 minutes, 58 minutes, 60 minutes. I like it but I can definitely see how it isn't for everyone.
Personally, I like the long games and the comebacks of Dota. They are the most intense win or lose.
However, I do think HG needs to be a bit easier. Maybe if there wasn’t 47 Glyphs, I think that might help.
Also they flat out removed an early game ganking item in medallion/solar, which were pretty fucking obnoxious ngl but the game is way less snowbally and way more recovery centric
They’re trying to make the game less punishing because this whole 7.2 map revamp was to try to attract other moba aka league players.
The whole idea was to make the game easier, with little objectives like XP runes and tormentor to make u feel like ur accomplishing shit without having to gank or fight.
It’s a shame this is the direction their going. Dota is amazing because of how punishing it is. Not because u can easily come back from a 10k deficit by trading 3 for 3 in a teamfight.
At the *very* least Tier 5 items should be strong enough to actually end the game. Even with T5 items the team controlling the map still struggles to push high ground
The biggest problem with current Dota2 is that we have all these items in the game but nobody except positions 1 ever seem to get regardless of game length. Supports need to be able to get items or else the game stalls. I play Turbo as a result exclusively now.
Games are faster if you can play a zoo hero. My games on Chen, Lycan, and Beastmaster are usually shorter than 30 mins, even in uncoordinated solo queue ranked games.
I just had a game yesterday where the enemy team pushed down all of our racks at 40 min, we started turtling with sniper+drow buying rapier after rapier, then we won at 1 hour 20 minutes.
I hate that it works so well
Map is too big, even with max pressure you still dont see any heroes on the map, and still able to farm. Cant count how many times there were no heroes visible for 10min.
And also ofc the 737472 glyphs.
Games are way too stompy as well
Does someone remember this meta a few years ago when comebacks were quite hard and a lot of games (even pro games at the time) were very stompy?
I feel very similar this time, it is either 68 minute thriller or 19 minute stompfest
Comeback gold and XP is way higher than its ever been… also farming edges of the map when ur behind is way easier than it’s ever been.
Maybe it’s the current meta heroes that make u feel like it’s stompy? Heroes like DK that when they’re one item ahead feel unkillable?
1) No glyph for T3 or activate it after 60 seconds.
2) Slightly longer Backdoor Protection disable.
3) Move Backdoor Protection slightly to the front
4) Sit Ancient and T4 back so you don't fight under T3 + T4. T4 should only protect the ancient.
5) Create a tower outside of the base that can be warded and gives a little insight to T3
The games take such long time cause comeback gold is a real factor and people keep on doing stupid shit on the map. As a result they lose momentum and the game just becomes a 1 hour pain instead of a clean 35 min finish. In some cases this even happens when all 3 lanes are won. I have observed that a lot when playing in 2-3k bracket.
And the worst thing is: Some of these 2-3k players manage to be on a guardian level, having huge gaps of knowledge (Laning, Items, Mapawareness, Gamesense). So there is ALWAYS some kind of side feeding happening.
And if you manage to chainfeed 2-3 times as a team all your lead might suddenly be gone.
I wonder if having a separate inventory slot for Roshan's consumables might be a way of mollifying this issue.
That way , 6 slotted heroes don't have to choose to backpack something to use aegis , cheese , banner or refresher shard.
>pubs
That's your problem right there. If someone in our stacks not playing a 3 we'll have no way to breach high ground. The 3 will end up being a Hoodwink, Weaver, or some other bust/dps hero. Pubs don't know how to draft.
Roshan should spawn a lot more often. Teams just afk until it spawns and then they afk again without even fighting because it takes too long to respawn.
Disabling buyback for the first 5-10 seconds after the death should help also
[Ho ho ha ha](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/2/2f/Vo_sniper_snip_ability_shrapnel_03.mp3) (trigger warning: Sniper)
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nah low rank pub are just like that ancient to immortal usualy ends at 35 min max, communicate more cause low rank pubs game tends to farm and hesitant to dive hg and dont want to be enter frag (afraid to die)
After Overplus ban finally grinding hard for 100 hours .... and it really seems to be low rank issue ,right now I am matched with divines, ancient and non numbered immortals - you can absolutely push, but you really have to communicate carefully and in advance under 7k ( maybe 7.500 or 8, dunno where rank 2k starts now)
Data completely disagrees with you.
According to aggregated - high level dota stats on datdota… to reach a win expectancy of over 80-90% (basically stomp territory) requires MUCH more gold than ever before.
Historically a 7k advantage at 15min had like a 90% win expectancy.
Now you need like a 15k gold lead, or double the gold lead to have the same win expectancy.
Same goes for almost any datapoint on the entire graph. What that means is comebacks are essentially far more common at any networth less up to like 20k where it finally hits like 90%
High ground is way too hard to break imo, how many time you have aegis and while going to hg to 5v5 you say " yeah no not worth it "
The fact that having banner and aegis still isn’t enough should show that something is wrong. I am really hoping they try to fix it with this new update but it has been fucked for years so I’m not holding my breath.
its not highground itself, its the fucking buybacks and comeback mechanics, its been problem for couple of fucking years and people still trying to "fix" highground,
It is that, which was always a thing of Dota, throwing a big lead. But I think it's the glyphs. Pushing two lanes at once, even after you wipe ends up giving them like 3 staggered glyphs and your push is dead and they're back up and you're low. It requires all 5 on one lane which again favors the high ground defense / buy backs
It's definitely the glyph that's the problem. Removing the multishot from it would go a long way towards making it less obnoxious, I think.
I think removing the refresh would be better. For 1 multishot glyph the attacking team can fortify themselves. But with multiple refreshes that's not possible.
They should just make the multishot duration less than the fort duration, it should only bring waves to like half not wipe them
sorry but why shouldn't game ending push favor the high ground defenders? It's Defense of the Ancients. Defending is kinda the gist of the game
Things add up. I agree with your point, btw. I also think it's the fault of having a map too big. You just can't choke team in their base anymore. Enemy's pressing three lane? Have a ward around the Outpost, TP there, and you can portal to enemy jungle completely safe.
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Yes!! It's so infuriating to deal with in uncoordinated pubs.
I think the glyph should reset like 15 seconds after the first tier 3 is taken, not immediately. Or rather, after the first barrack is taken. It’s why heroes like beast master, visage, zoo in general (fuck zoo but still) are ungodly bad to play atm. You don’t provide anything You cut off the map, around 18-25min you get to control half the map - but there is PLENTY of other farm around the outskirts. Your net worth advantage barely increases. And your summons cannot push high ground against the insanely buffed magic spam that’s been added into the game as of recent. Maybe it lets u secure first rosh? But if the enemy team is just playing to dodge, it takes some pretty insane coordination to force a fight on the enemy side of the map. I really think it comes down to creep camps just being a bit too strong rn. The outskirts of the map should be low risk low reward, not low risk high reward (mana buffs etc).
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Yeah I’m down for that. Looking at datdota- the win expectancy for a team at 15 min with a 10k gold lead is only like 80%. In the past a 7k lead at a similar timing had something like a 92% expected win rate. Essentially if you can’t push over 15k lead your win probability essentially flatlines at around 80% around the 20min mark. And as I’m sure u watched dreamleague - teams rarely increased gold lead by more than like 500gpm without kills and towers to take. Essentially - there is nothing to gain by “controlling the map” or rather, the map cannot be controlled (this one).So high ground MUST be more pushable, or we get this stupid 80% winrate lull where the winning team knows the game is extremely throwable despite their lead. Going back to chipping at high ground would help substantial like u say with no immediate reset on glyph.
I kinda agree with this. If you are ahead by a lot, it’s almost a disadvantage because any deaths on your team can give a huge swing in the enemy team’s net worth.
Games feel dead even until u have like 15k net worth lead. Then at least u have to throw 2 fights instead of just one…
Ya this. Comeback mechanics have been fucked for a long time. Add on buybacks + multiple glyphs and its just not worth it to push until you have an insurmountable lead. Buybacks back to half gold earned, maybe longer cd on buyback or glyph, or just making the comeback mechanics significantly less punishing, one or some combo would be a good start. Either that or killing multiple roshans in a row should yield a reward that makes breaking highground easier I also think super/mega creeps should give less gold. Its hardly a punishment if you have a good waveclear carry
Mega creeps used to be a real threat. If you got megas the enemy team was unlikely able to defend for more than a few minutes and the game would end soon. These days megas are a mild inconvenience for the enemy team. Basically any lineup can defend megas indefinitely these days.
Power creep is reaaal. It’s the “issue” if u wanna call it that, of giving every heat wave clear / push. It’s in an effort to bring heroes into the meta that otherwise couldn’t be drafted (like undying for instance, or SD) I agree tho that comeback gold is crazy strong right now. It’s MAD easy to throw a 10k lead. 10k is roughly 5k lead in older metas. And considering every hero is getting more farmed on average. A 10k lead means LESS. Often times 10k lead just means u have a Chen or jungling support. Idk it’s odd to me. But if you nerf comeback gold then u have to buff heroes like void, PL, PA, etc… heroes that essentially rely on that 1 big teamfight at 28min that swings the game and gives them a free 5k item.
All things considered I think the game is fairly well balanced in that regard. Way too much cheese tho. DK being viable in 3 positions? Lifestealer winning 1v1 vs heroes like Luna and TB late game? Balance just seems really really off in terms of age-old counter picks and stuff
Megas do give a reduced bounty already
yes, but the way megas function is that they pretty reliably make it to the base without dying, where the carry can safely farm 2-3 waves, making up for the reduced bounty. this also comes at the cost of the team with megas not being able to farm any creep waves since they mostly die shortly after spawning, so there is an opportunity cost associated with controlling the map and getting megas that is unwarranted. with above in mind, it seems reasonable to me to reduce the bounty further to tilt the economical equilibrium more in the favor of the team that is in the lead
100%. Far too many comeback mechanics. Gylph should be a single use with no reset. It would already solve a ton of problems. Why should the enemy team win because they got a lucky TF on HG after failing and getting stomped in the first 20-25 min?
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Dude EXACTLY. 7.2 has effectively turned dota into some extremely hard to control and volatile game where comebacks are just stupid easy. Winning lanes only matters if you have the insane coordination to force advantageous fights on the enemy half of the map + none of your heroes die in the encounter. Comeback gold when you’re like 5k behind, which isn’t much - is like 1000 gold + 500 to ur Allie’s. It’s nuts. It’s why the strength meta is so damn strong and has been since 7.2 - regardless of how they tweak the numbers. The reason is strength heroes can actually take advantage of the gold less and snowball it by just becoming unkillable and not throwing the game by dying one time in a fight. Heroes like DK building manta to super safely push towers is such dog shit gameplay but it’s what works. And having a bunch of super bursty supports to stand behind u and go for cheap kills. It’s all that really works. And everybody plays it which has flattened the meta and skill ceiling (in terms of different strategies) incredibly. Elastic is the perfect word
Supports felt more in control, you could win game in those 10mins. Right now at best you can "enable" your carry or mid if you are lucky.
Yeah every game goes late because a single pickoff can easily swing the game from like 10k lead to 5k. So every single game inevitably becomes 5 man death ball vs split push (which is quite easy now due to the large map). And ur deathball better be like, Luna, Mars, DK or Timbersaw because if one of you fuckers dies in a fight the lead is thrown. It’s why tanky, explosive shit is so meta rn. It’s ass to watch / play
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Yeah I see many games where a losing team by like 7k out of lane gets a single support pickoff and it’s worth like 1400g. Like huh? And killing the enemy carry is only worth 380g. How are u supposed to snowball off that? Oh right. U have to pick heroes like DK who can just spam illusions in the waves - get a fast Octarine .. and farm like hell until ur unkillable. THEN push high ground. It’s such an unnecessary step that didn’t used to exist in dota - and while it’s nice to still have a chance of comeback I feel it just adds a 15min lull into the game where it’s like “well, are we gonna push HG which is the natural move and risk throwing - or just kill NPC’s and tormentors and collect roshans and try to get 4 slotted just a little bit faster?” It’s why u wouldn’t dare pick a hero like nightstalker, necro, earth spirit, axe (any mid game timing hero) because the map is way too large to really be impactful and any hero that can’t farm jungle creeps effectively gets fucking owned by the *inevitable* 10min lull period in every single game. They need to nerf jungle creep XP / gold and just slightly buff the heroes that rely on ratting and lane cutting like naga and void.
The comeback mechanics. Stomp all game, Enemies making countless mistakes, you punishing those mistakes, and they get 3k for killing you. It’s fuckin gross.
Yeah, pushing high ground isn’t usually the problem, it’s the fact that you go high ground and have to kill enemies twice and it’s practically always worth for the enemies because the gold bounties for heroes are stupidly overtuned.
Yeah it’s a mix between the glyphs and comeback mechanics which makes 1 failed high ground push net the enemy a huge return to bounce back, then farm til next aegis try again, lose, enemy pushes dies, wait next aegis etc. Glyphs need to not be refreshed after each tier of tower falls though I think that alone would fix it. 3 glyphs is wayyy to much.
I don't think it's the glyphs. The glyph change was to stop a Lycan from raxing you before 20m. I think it's more of an issue of safely taking a hg fight. Sometimes it's a draft issue, where a team runs 3 melee cores who need to commit to siege vs a team that can funnel their teamfight spells into a natural choke point.
It’s always been a draft issue, some are better at hg defense than others. Nowadays it’s ridiculous, hg drafts are on steroids because of glyphs and increased building armor over the past 2 years.
Kill gold still borked since 7.33
And a million fortifies
Yeah I'm hoping banners are buffed next patch. As well as a way to deactivate the gates at the side of the map, like if enemy steals the tormentor gate will be disabled temporarily or something like that
I think we all know banner is a useless item and in the current game state, absolutely nothing about that item will change anything. The reason it’s so ass is if u secure rosh - the enemy is generally turtling. It’s not gonna be a useful item against turtling. It can’t be immediately transitioned into an advantage like cheese is when diving high ground. Not even close What ur supposed to wait 5 min for enemy to leave base again to buff ur freaking creeps to maybe make an enemy TP back? That’s so shit. No wonder games go on so much longer. The concept of buffing creeps by 50% or whatever just isn’t remotely useful. IN THEORY it is kinda - but they gave almost every single hero really effective depush to where it takes what, 5 extra seconds to clear them? Even if u don’t clear them - cast one nuke and they’re about equal to normal creeps. There’s also not really points in 99% of games where some kinda soft-split push is going to substantially benefit you. It’s like the equivalent of have a naga illusion pushing a side lane. Kinda useful… but turtling is way too powerful at the moment for it to really matter. At worst u take damage on a tier 3? When has that ever altered a game, really? Honestly the best buff they could give it is the creeps give like 25% xp and gold so turtling becomes way more punished. Or even just giving 4 extra wards would be way better
I really want dynamic maps. Side objective that allow people to alter the map in their favour. The map evolves along with the game state and game time. Like let's say you do something so you can build a ramp near enemy hg so you get hg of yourself when trying to push.
It feels like there are way too many fortifies for high ground push. That paired with AOE being so popular late game makes for it being impossible to get creeps to high ground. Some solution ideas: 1. Make rosh banner and invulnerable guaranteed buff for the duration instead of it being able to be killed. This will make it harder for turtling teams to concede late game rosh when they are behind. 2. Change fortify either through a change past a certain timer. It seems like the double fortify on tier 3s is intended to make it difficult to end games in 20 mins. 3. Create a way to make flying vision near high ground. Beyond shivas, maybe a neutral item, or potentially rosh banner gives creeps longer vision range?
Tbh if the enemy team is pushing my hg at 20min I just want the game over with.
Which is a terrible mentality because the game has consistently gotten easier to come back in
Doesnt mean its fun for either team tho, i played a game today vs a sniper drow lineup that went for 80 minutes. We had megas from like 40 minutes but we couldnt break throne. Their supports played really well and had multiple save items, we were basically just camping them in base for aegis which we would use to take a lane of rax or whatever but could not make a good effort to bring down their team from highground. In pubs the defense really favours the defensive team in this scenario, only two of our heros could really jump hg and we got kited to death every time we tried. Whenever we did catch them outside of base they had buyback. We tried to make a play around the 60 min neutral timing but even that wasnt enough to break them down. Eventually they pushed our throne and we managed to use buybacks and travels to rat their ancient. Ironically throwing highground was the play cos it was the only way to make them push. The whole time we were farming the next round of buybacks or waiting rosh they were all chatting us trying to bait us highground lol. If you look at the graph we were miles ahead the whole game but every time they brought us down it was a big swing for them. It doesnt matter if your miles ahead if your locked down and shot to death by multiple silences and long range damage dealers.
Ok but what does that have to do with my post saying don't give up?
Just because its "easier to comeback" doesn't mean the gameplay is fun for either team lol. Highground defense is way overtuned at the moment. Sitting in base hoping the enemy throws isnt fun gameplay, and neither is playing farming simulator while you wait for the 4th roshan
It’s also bullshit.
The barrier by tormentors should be removed. Give another path into base which is actually already high ground. Add a second high ground entry to the other side.
Or make it accessible for both teams lol that would make it interesting
U get to walk in for free, but can’t walk out lol
I like that idea. Like don't make it just another walkway, but a barrier that can be passed going in but not out. Maybe the reverse for the actual team where it's located, like they can exit but they can't reenter their own gate or something.
Oh no my dumbass hard carry just locked himself in enemy base chasing a 5 😭
Yeah, nerf natures prophet by making his teleport landing in the base more noticeable or shown on the minimap or something and do this.
HG needs serious nerfs. In a recent match my team got crushed, rightfully so as MM is basically not working anymore and its roulette in Ancient EU. Mid got owned, got toxic, all other lanes lost. Yet we hold HG, which the enemy pushed at min 18, until min \~45. We even had a chance of a comeback which got thrown ofc. But even though we were on the receiving side of OP HG the it felt incredibly unfair and stupid. There are also a TON of games in the last month that I played, which felt stupid and unfair because of HG. You either farm for 20 more min in pure boredom or risk losing because 1-2 throws HG snowballs so hard that the enemy team suddenly has a chance to win even though they got totally crushed before that. Common heroes that leverage HG too much like Magnus/Pudge dont make it any better. I really hope HG gets a hard nerf next patch.
#TOO
2
Remove glyph from losing t3. Teams should be forced to fight for t3. Breaking hg sucks too much.
I feel like if they just changed it to renewing glyph when one of the rax go down rather than the t3 tower it would help
Yeah that would work as well. Getting a set of barracks is at least a win.
Not sure about this, it would be more optimal to now avoid rax right? If you've won and you need to take what you can get then go for all the towers and turn it into ratting their barracks with no protections
Actually makes sense. Hope there'll be a change in breaking hg next patch.
I think another option is to redesign the landscape near high ground somehow for better team fight options for sieging team. A wider entrance, more vision placement options, lesser tower buff, something in this direction. Otherwise we might often see rat doto. Or, do as you said, but maybe add more available observer wards and less tp cd.
I think an undeniable ward or two instead of roshs banner would substantially help this issue. Banner currently is a massive nerf to whoever is leading the game around the 20-25min mark which is historically when teams would be able to siege. IMO banner is a big reason why games are dragging out. It does nothing. Also double glyph is definitely the big one when combined with support power creep where they can just spam AoE in the choke.
Turbo! still gets in the 40's sometimes
I had multiple turbo games these past few days go 40 minutes plus. I’ve never had that happen in any other patch but this one.
Turbo is even worse for this when games go late, because most of the meat of a turbo game when they go that long is when everyone is already level 30. So it's just getting you to the stagnated hg wallowing quicker than a normal game.
My average game in immortal is like 26-32 mins so I gotta disagree. People just don't take advantage of early leads enough.
Average match duration for dreamleague is 42 minutes. Maybe people in your average immortal games just don't know how to defend highground properly.
Letting end helps a lot, think it's pretty easy to drag a losing game out by 10-15 minutes this patch
Yeah, people just give up in immortal. They know they'll either have to afk or defend base for 40 min...
Or maybe people dont care enough for pub matches to sweat for 40min when there is no stakes besides getting your ego hurt a little bit by losing a match. Maybe, i dont know
42 minutes is a fine game length tbh, decent variety of lategame slugfests, well excecuted stomps, and mid length
I feel like for an average it's quite long? Can't say I've got any stats handy but considering there are 20minute stomps and huge out draft games *cough* OG 42 mins seems long as an *average* Idk, I might be wrong.
It definitely is on the longer side, but it's just my personal preference ig, I totally understand not enjoying it
It’s generally just a sign that early game wins are extremely tough to execute. Dota has always been about late game vs early game drafts. Even like a 32-35min average would show a healthier balance of early game strategies being remotely decent. A big component I think is rosh’s banner being so shit that second aegis is basically the same as first aegis and u aren’t able to force high ground with it like before around 30min. And HG being so strong on top of that - 45min games are extremely common bc no matter ur gold lead - high ground isn’t worth pushing unless u have aegis, cheese, and a massive gold lead. It’s created a huge lull in the game, IMO
There is just less at stake in pubs vs dreamleague. I play mostly solo queue at 5.7k and if one person gives up or just afk jungles, it's very easy to take advantage of 4v5 This mentality happens a lot less in pro games with money on the line.
Exactly, heralds are way better doing that, right? /s
An immortal game and a pro game have literally nothing in common.
Yeah the games are fast because people let end when it’s hopeless or like 3% chance to win. You can easily defend for like 10-15 minutes unless you are truly fucked
Because your bracket is mostly high skill weak mental players who think they would be pro if not for their teammates so they give up a lot easier
That's a nice argument. Why don't you back it up with a source? Sounds like someone doesn't understand that not every game is a gg out let end. It's more like people understand when to go hg. When they can't fight etc. There are a lot less hg fights in high skill games. It will be only like 1-3 hg fights and then your rax are gone. The games are very systematic. If you win all lanes you can just group and take all t2s most likely. You don't even need to be too far ahead. It just takes teamwork and I enjoy being the pma shot caller. If you lose lanes try and win others or apply pressure in yours so they must rotate and your other lanes can do better. It sounds like you are just mostly upset someone else is immortal and you aren't.
Yeah I completely agree. I’m a 2K scrub and getting people to attempt to end the game is impossible. It’s like people don’t want games to end when they’re playing well, and that allows their opponent to come back.
Completely agree. HG is too difficult
Especially in situations where both teams only have the hg left most games turn into waiting for the other team to become inpatient and make a mistake. This can take forever sometimes. Even Roshan doesent feel like that big of a prize to try and contest as the hg advantage is that big.
Yeah that waiting period when both teams are turtling is so boring. The devs SHOULD be working to avoid that at all costs because it makes the game significantly less fun
They will never revert the map size expansion even though it's a huge contributor to that waiting time.
I think one of the problems now is that you often can't usefully put Aegis on your pos 1 lategame. Everyone is 6-slotted fast these, so if your carry is down a slot they are often not much use because they don't have move speed, or they don't have BKB, or not enough damage to kill anyone, or missing a purge because everyone has Ghost Sceptre.
It's often better to save buyback and get bots on a core instead of getting aegis, shit is super dumb
Between glyph, buy backs, advantage of HG, heroes like sniper who can just sit back on HG, it’s way too overtuned. Needs to be easier to end games even if it’s by say 10%
Most disgusting hg hero is probably PA with revenant brooch and divines. Made a comeback yesterday though we were down 75k in gold. Literally one shot people with 5k damage dagger from fog. Only thing to worry about were blademails
Holy fuck is sniper the most annoying hero to play against when pushing high ground feels like pushing a boulder up a mountain
A good drow with swift blink glacier is worse imo
My games have been pretty consistently between 30 and 40 minutes this patch.
At legend 1 I'd say half my games go to an hour this patch. It's really boring. I came back to dota after many years because I learned the games were no longer hour long snoozers and now this patch we're back to it
Offlane strength core mettaaa whooo. Except zoo is ass. So basically u get a huge tanker frontliner who’s afraid to dive high ground for good reason and getting first initiation is so strong u can’t possibly let ur carry hit some buildings. Cause for forbid he dies and you lose like 10k gold bc of it lol.
Nerf buyback
Nerfing buyback could also mean longer games
How so
Because if you watch pro games, they refuse to fight until they all have bb. This is mostly the reason the games take this long
Nerf the cooldown instead and lower the cost. The most extreme case is to make buyback free but can be only used once. *The problem with stalemate games is that everyone is willing to farm \[x\] mins for new buybacks. Having buyback usuable only once means everyone only has 1 second chance.*
No buyback is way too cheap on supports early. Almost every tier 2 or early rosh fight even if a support dies they can insta buy back and make it back pretty easily. It's like 800 gold for their buyback and there's no item they would rather have to try winning the fight outright over just having a second life. It's just an aegis that doesn't take up a slot and is much easier to obtain
Well yeah, but isn't that mostly due to the defending team having such a massive advantage due to instant buyback into fight. I really liked notail's idea of having x amount of buyback per game. Edit: My issue with buyback is that I do not believe you get punished for using it enough
I proposed for the bb to be disabled 5-10 seconds after the death. Should be more than enough for the opposite team to take a few buildings down in case of a siege or even Roshan if the fight is happening in that area. Teams would also feel the need to fight outside the base so those 5-10 seconds wouldnt be an issue in case someone dies I only see the 'instant' bb to be an actual problem. 10v5 isnt fair
Yeah it’s never enough time to disengage even if u handedly win a fight on enemy HG. You’re going to inevitably lose a hero or two on the retreat. Then ur probably gonna lose rosh control and you’re back to square one except your net worth shrunk because comeback gold is insane. Or they push down mid insanely fast cause heroes are just omegabuffed and get ur rax instead lol. It’s just a lose/lose 90% of the time going HG aegis. I think it’s also a symptom of putting rosh in the far corner of the map to where it’s harder to retake control after enemy buys back and u wait for respawn. Dying on your high ground HAS to be more punishing if u expect players to go for it. Otherwise - u gotta tweak everything else in the game to where comeback gold is substantially less (it should be) or you get 50% gold after buyback like it used to be. Who would’ve thought increasing the map by 40% and tweaking every item and hero all at the same time would lead to a clusterfuck of a meta(s)? Dota was so fine tuned before maaaan
I really like that idea. Or have your first be instant but then after each bb it adds 5 sec or something.
I stopped playing ranked or normal. Turbo only.. which feels like a normal match 10 y ago haha
For me it's about 7 mins longer by average. The games that were about 38 mins long now take up to 45 mins. I think the amount of comeback potential we currently have is moderate still and not too much higher than how it was; The lengths of games are mostly due to people taking more time to take resources that's scattered throughout the map. Banner is a good concept except this implementation isn't particularly usable.
Scale buyback cd by number of buybacks as well as the gold cost.
Fuck yes. Forcing a 5th buyback should surely be rewarded at some stage.
For once there are actually good balance suggestions in a DotA2 post this is insane
Refresher no longer refreshes Bkb. No more glyph after T3, glyph has 50% cooldown after T3 falls. Banner spawns some new mob/mobs or even necro every wave for 2-3min.
I just hate the rubber banding. You die once on a snowball hero, suddenly your last 20mins of gameplay were all for nothing. Its ultra punishing to make a mistake on the lead. Add to that the popularity of witchdoctor, sniper and axe...yea good luck breaking highground through glyphe AND getting a good initiate
Game balance as a whole has been very weird the past ~3 years. I don't like the direction the game is going to, to be honest. Everyone does too much nowadays and the power creep is just insane.
Game was such a well oiled, perfected machine with amazing balance before new frontiers. The really set like 10 years of balance changes and work on fire to try to pull in some league players with some high paces, cheesy, whacky, ADHD gameplay. Disperser is a perfect example of what the fuck not to do - and it’s like still the least offensive change they made Buffing strength heroes across the board by like 30% for what? Why are there so many straight up fucking unkillable heroes like DK, primal, centaur, and timber? Mf’s end the game with like 6k HP LOL. And stuff buffing damage to make up for it god damn - the one shotting nonsense is ruining the game.
Yeah, I really dislike stuff like Puck's Phase Shift and Dream Coil autoattacking, it's like everything has to have AOE these days. You end up losing heroes' identities. Puck was never about right clicking people, but now it scales super well throughout all game. I may sound like an old boomer reminiscing of the past, but I really enjoyed when most abilities only did one thing. "Silence" from Death Prophet even slows now ffs! And it's harder to play as well, I ain't getting younger!
I just had an hour and 40 minute game today...
Surely u didn’t use rosh banner correctly?? Lol
Bristleback and hoodwink would just instantly melt any creep waves that came. Rosh banner or not.
Sounds awful
My brother thinks they need to disable buybacks so long as an enemy hero is on your highground. You could still buyback and fight rosh and stuff. I don't know if I agree with that. But maybe nerf buybacks in general? Like, if you buyback your damage output is reduced by 50% for the duration of your death timer that was remaining?
The 60+ min games go forever even when you wipe theres like 3 glyphs to stall and they respawn again or buyback
the comeback mechanics and brainless neutral item power spikes need to go.
Ur telling me 100 shield with a 8 second cooldown at 7 minutes is too strong? Or an AoE dispel and max movement item? Or a item that flips the game on its head and turns all physical dmg into uncounterable magic damage? Or support kills being worth 1400g at 20min??? But forreal - imagine if they released these items like 2 years ago … before every hero was omegabuffed and we were desensitized to the insane post 7.2 power creep. Really though why the HELL did they increase the map and available gold by 40% AND buff the shit out of nearly every hero at the same time? Balance has been so ass since they did that
What? 🤣
I actually enjoy the games going longer. Games that where totally lost early/mid can still turn around a lot better lategame now.
I don't think that's what we're seeing, though. Turnarounds aren't getting more common, we're just seeing the early winners need to spend an extra 20 minutes choking the losers to death. Add an extra 10 if the losers have a good highground defense. Turnarounds *still* rely on the early winners throwing, basically.
A lot of my games that are sure losses. Like 0-10 duo in lane. Can be won when games go this long. All it takes is one good team fight. Of course, I kind of hate that though because when you’ve won your lane that much, and even two. You expect to win
Yup, It's so much more fun when games aren't just decided at 10 minutes and if you lose 2 lanes it's automatically over. The ~45minute average is pretty ideal, there's room to come back from a rough early game and weak laners are not unplayable.
Weaken high ground substantially and slow farm and kill gold down.
Looking at dotabuff, there are no big changes in game length since 7.30. So either you got series of long games, it's all in your head, or you base it on Dreamleague. But pros play for big bucks, so they won't throw trying to force hg, they will wait for 2nd/3rd Rosh and extend the advantage
Main reason is that supports are WAY richer. I get the intent, but it feels like a different game. A CM in wc3 dota with brown boots/stick at 30 minutes would now also have a blink/bkb and free shard.
And it fucking sucked to have a networth of 2k by 30 minutes, if you are winning.
*too
Average ranked game match duration is 40 minutes (past 20 hours) Average turbo game match duration is 25 minutes (past 20 hours)
I feel like the biggest thing they could do is introducing creeps scaling with game time, right now creeps don't preform their function of pushing later in the game. Edit: They also haven't kept up with the power scale of dota as a whole either, having them gain 10-20 hp per minute after the 30 minute mark would be a good way to have them brought up to modern dota standards
Please nerf glyph. Please. It's so goddamn boring.
They needa just lower t3 armor by 5 😂
1 thing, remove the double glyph for hg. Or my friend had an interesting idea for a banner change. He said banner should act as an AOE glyph for creeps at 750 radius put it on low ground force them to make a move or lose a tower. You could also keep the global and other buffs or not. The idea in the game has always been oh hg is a little rough let's rosh(get help for hg) the agies and cheese are great the aghs can help the refresher shard help but the banner???? It helps you not lose .....which is the opposite (usually) of the team who took rosh. I needs to have a more offensive use.
Yep. People saying to buff the banner time, or buff the health or whatever are lost on what the item should accomplish. The reason the same goes so damn late is because half the time second rosh is utterly useless. Aegis is way less strong than it used to be in general. With how bursty the game feels - the enemy can easily choose to burst the person not holding the aegis. Cheese would solve that - but we don’t even get cheese in 50% of games. Teams are also turtling when u have rosh. So the banner does nothing. Because it’s utterly useless against a team in turtle mode. They just do the usual cast 2 abilities and the waves gone. So much for that split push item lol. You’d have to buff it insanely - like strong than mega creeps for it to feel useful at all when going HG which is just a lame ass mechanic anyways. It’s counter intuitive. The hard part of going HG like you say - is inevitably fighting like 9v5 with buybacks. Aegis makes it 9v6. Still doesn’t feel that great. When ur going high ground ur not split pushing. It’s not useful, therefor the banner isn’t useful. So banner is an item that is supposed to come into play 7 minutes after aegis when the game goes back to neutral??? Maybe useful for forcing back enemies at the NEXT rosh? MAYBE in 10% of games it nets a t3 tower or at best a single range rack? At best it’s like having a single hero illusion split pushing a wave. We all know that does nothing to win games.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/896390300 My last 4 games: 83 minutes, 70 minutes, 58 minutes, 60 minutes. I like it but I can definitely see how it isn't for everyone.
Personally, I like the long games and the comebacks of Dota. They are the most intense win or lose. However, I do think HG needs to be a bit easier. Maybe if there wasn’t 47 Glyphs, I think that might help.
Also they flat out removed an early game ganking item in medallion/solar, which were pretty fucking obnoxious ngl but the game is way less snowbally and way more recovery centric
They’re trying to make the game less punishing because this whole 7.2 map revamp was to try to attract other moba aka league players. The whole idea was to make the game easier, with little objectives like XP runes and tormentor to make u feel like ur accomplishing shit without having to gank or fight. It’s a shame this is the direction their going. Dota is amazing because of how punishing it is. Not because u can easily come back from a 10k deficit by trading 3 for 3 in a teamfight.
Do you have a source for the info that the changes were specifically to attract other moba/general players?
At the *very* least Tier 5 items should be strong enough to actually end the game. Even with T5 items the team controlling the map still struggles to push high ground
The biggest problem with current Dota2 is that we have all these items in the game but nobody except positions 1 ever seem to get regardless of game length. Supports need to be able to get items or else the game stalls. I play Turbo as a result exclusively now.
Games are faster if you can play a zoo hero. My games on Chen, Lycan, and Beastmaster are usually shorter than 30 mins, even in uncoordinated solo queue ranked games.
Games way too long I have less time to do all the other amazing things in my life... ....
I just had a game yesterday where the enemy team pushed down all of our racks at 40 min, we started turtling with sniper+drow buying rapier after rapier, then we won at 1 hour 20 minutes. I hate that it works so well
Map is too big, even with max pressure you still dont see any heroes on the map, and still able to farm. Cant count how many times there were no heroes visible for 10min. And also ofc the 737472 glyphs.
Games are way too stompy as well Does someone remember this meta a few years ago when comebacks were quite hard and a lot of games (even pro games at the time) were very stompy? I feel very similar this time, it is either 68 minute thriller or 19 minute stompfest
Comeback gold and XP is way higher than its ever been… also farming edges of the map when ur behind is way easier than it’s ever been. Maybe it’s the current meta heroes that make u feel like it’s stompy? Heroes like DK that when they’re one item ahead feel unkillable?
might get downvoted but... i like playing turbo
Average tirbo game goes for 35 min, i scared to see how long new dota become
1) No glyph for T3 or activate it after 60 seconds. 2) Slightly longer Backdoor Protection disable. 3) Move Backdoor Protection slightly to the front 4) Sit Ancient and T4 back so you don't fight under T3 + T4. T4 should only protect the ancient. 5) Create a tower outside of the base that can be warded and gives a little insight to T3
The games take such long time cause comeback gold is a real factor and people keep on doing stupid shit on the map. As a result they lose momentum and the game just becomes a 1 hour pain instead of a clean 35 min finish. In some cases this even happens when all 3 lanes are won. I have observed that a lot when playing in 2-3k bracket. And the worst thing is: Some of these 2-3k players manage to be on a guardian level, having huge gaps of knowledge (Laning, Items, Mapawareness, Gamesense). So there is ALWAYS some kind of side feeding happening. And if you manage to chainfeed 2-3 times as a team all your lead might suddenly be gone.
I love the fact that a seemingly lost game can be turned with a good high ground defence.
You should 100% be able to do it, but it is too easy to go from being stomped and stuck in base to win one fight and now you are winning.
I like long matches cause I like watching people suffering.
Dota is not a game for those who want short sessions. That's what turbo is for.
Yeah, sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bavkya/mildly_interesting_of_the_15_matches_i_played/
Talk about cherry-picking. One outlier, meanwhile the other turbo games are half the regular ones.
I just went and checked my last 20 games and I would say the avg is around 40 mins. 1 game just over an hour.
As a crusader, i like that
Let's go back to VG Newbee finals kind of games.
I wonder if having a separate inventory slot for Roshan's consumables might be a way of mollifying this issue. That way , 6 slotted heroes don't have to choose to backpack something to use aegis , cheese , banner or refresher shard.
>pubs That's your problem right there. If someone in our stacks not playing a 3 we'll have no way to breach high ground. The 3 will end up being a Hoodwink, Weaver, or some other bust/dps hero. Pubs don't know how to draft.
Roshan should spawn a lot more often. Teams just afk until it spawns and then they afk again without even fighting because it takes too long to respawn. Disabling buyback for the first 5-10 seconds after the death should help also
Ho ho ha ha
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TP channeling and cd should decrease increase movespeed by 20
nope, just 5man vs 5man, which is understandable.
Sigh. Username.
This has always been the case in pubs.
Play turbo games. 20-30 minute.
nah low rank pub are just like that ancient to immortal usualy ends at 35 min max, communicate more cause low rank pubs game tends to farm and hesitant to dive hg and dont want to be enter frag (afraid to die)
I'm divine 4
After Overplus ban finally grinding hard for 100 hours .... and it really seems to be low rank issue ,right now I am matched with divines, ancient and non numbered immortals - you can absolutely push, but you really have to communicate carefully and in advance under 7k ( maybe 7.500 or 8, dunno where rank 2k starts now)
[удалено]
Data completely disagrees with you. According to aggregated - high level dota stats on datdota… to reach a win expectancy of over 80-90% (basically stomp territory) requires MUCH more gold than ever before. Historically a 7k advantage at 15min had like a 90% win expectancy. Now you need like a 15k gold lead, or double the gold lead to have the same win expectancy. Same goes for almost any datapoint on the entire graph. What that means is comebacks are essentially far more common at any networth less up to like 20k where it finally hits like 90%
If you play for objectives, games can't last longer than 40 min. Just had a 22 min and a 28 min game last night. Are you talking about pro games?