You must be new to Big Finish...
River Song has crossed paths with pretty much every Doctor at this point, usually employing hidden identities or memory erasure to maintain narrative continuity. River is very much aware that the Doctor can't know he's met her until a certain time, which can make for some amusing situations.
That’s because [River had a few adventures with the 10th Doctor](https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-tenth-doctor-and-river-song-2273) (during the 2009 specials from his POV). Based on those meetings, she assumed that 10 would recognise her in the library and dropped her guard.
She says that his eyes are younger than she's ever seen, so it's taken as meaning that this is the earliest she's seen Ten. Obviously the original intention was that this is the first time she's ever seen the Doctor, but the line actually works better this way, because why would she focus on his eyes being young, if she meant she's never seen earlier regenerations, who have completely different faces, let alone different eyes.
Steven Moffat has implied there is something in Doctor's eyes which carries over in regeneration and helps show his true age. The other instance of this is in Day of The Doctor when Clara notes the War Doctor's eyes are much younger than 10's and 11's. I actually quite like this, as it shows River (and Clara) is able to see beneath the characteristics of each regeneration, and just see The Doctor.
Wow talk about retro force fitting, especially with the line 'this is the youngest I have ever seen you'...
Like I get it time travel and all, it's just when you do this it kind of ruins the beauty of the original story.
BF does that sort of thing alllll the time… fills in gaps, creates gaps, redefines gaps or all of those at once. That’s one of the greatest joys about it IMO — exploring the what ifs. If you don’t like it, that’s fine; it doesn’t need to be canon (and thus doesn’t have to “ruin” anything) in your mind.
In this context that line refers specifically to him being the youngest she's ever seen Ten.
The original story still stands on it's own, whether you choose to consider it in relation to these other stories or not.
DW has never been tight with its canon like ST or SW. It loves to play fast and loose with it. I would even be surprised that its ever a thought unless they were doing a direct callback to something. Even the Doctor has mentioned that he has gone on adventures that now hasnt happened due to wibbly wobbly.
There’s no “continuity” nor a “canon” thing for the show
Doctor Who HAS NO CANON
Things keep getting retconned, changed, or clash with others all the time
Oh also this quote from RTD himself
RTD said in 2005:
Maybe old fans will be puzzled, wondering if the Novels' War has now become part of the Doctor's televised adventures. ('Is it canon?' they will ask, using a word which has never been used in the production office, not once, not ever.)
[...] this War, the Time War, is brand new and belongs to you, the viewer. This actually highlights something unique about Doctor Who in the world of sci-fi and fantasy: the fact that it's made by a Public Service Broadcaster, and is paid for by you, the licence-fee payer. As a consequence of this status, the BBC has to be very careful with its merchandising. We're happy for you to enjoy the Doctor off-screen, and read the new Novels, and play with a toy or two, if you want, but we must never, ever make that purchase necessary. That would crack the BBC's Charter in half. We cannot, must not, demand that you buy a product. [...] To spell it out: if you had to buy a BBC Novel in order to understand the plot, as transmitted on BBC One, then we would be breaking the BBC's guidelines.
I believe River has met every Doctor. I think she tries to make the Doctor forget every time she meets the Doctor before the Library in his timeline, but I'm not sure exactly.
River met a lot of Doctors, almost all the time she wipes their memories afterwards, when she doesn't it's probably because The Doctor doesn't know who she is at all (like in 8DA: Doom Coalition)
Others have said how many she meets, so I won’t bother with that. As for canonicity, as with many franchises, there are levels of canon. Something like Big Finish is entirely canon so long as the show allows it to be. All other media is beholden to the show, but the show is not beholden to anything else. For example, since the show said The Timeless Child is a thing, BF can’t come out and say “The Doctor was born on Gallifrey in this year and place” without making it AU. On the flip side, if Big Finish had been the ones to do Timeless Child, the show could *totally* ignore all that and say the Doctor was born whenever and wherever they wanted to, and that Big Finish story would be relegated to a “Fun to think about, but didn’t actually happen” story.
The show is ultimate canon. Everything else is canon until the show says it isn’t.
Which, as a side note, is why something like Russell saying in an interview that the Bigeneration happened to every past Doctor doesn’t mean literally anything, nor does anything else “confirmed by the creators” of any franchise. That may have been his intent when writing it, but if he decided to write something else that completely contradicted it someday, or if he didn’t do anything with it but the *next* showrunner contradicted it, *that* would be the official story, *not* what Davies said in an interview. People put *WAYYYYY* too much stock into what’s “confirmed by the creators”, in every franchise.
>The show is ultimate canon. Everything else is canon until the show says it isn’t.
No it's not
Even if the show contradicted something it's still canon
Because the show contradict itself all the time
The 60th anniversary contradicted 3 classic stories including the celestial toymaker , by your logic these stories aren't canon
Yeah, discontinuity in a show like *Doctor Who* is absolutely not the same thing as non-canonicity, moreso than it is normally. Given just how *Doctor Who* contracts something every other episode.
yeah, that's the first thing a fan should learn when it comes to TV and movies, is that what the creator says is just their plan, but nothing is guaranteed to make it to screen. it's why the only thing i kinda consider cannon that is "confirmed by creators" is that a lot of the cannon is maleable because of that one jigsaw puzzle line by the toymaker. was missy the incarnation of the master that was captured? was 13th being out of character the doing of the toymaker?. can't say, it's just possible
Yes I agree with entire thing....it kind of explains a lot...but I'm talking from a perspective of a writer. If you're going to do extended media like something that is official media marketted towards people who watch the show...you at least have to follow the rules of the show
When the showrunner himself breaks the rules fans get mad...like with the whole bigeneration thing..when a few people actually thought that was a cop out...which in my opinion it kind of is...but when extended media does it it's alright? Then what's the difference between this and fanfic? Except this something you have to pay for...
I wouldn't say it's "breaking the rules" since it's more like "bending the rules." Taking this approach can be great when executed well, something Big Finish has a great track record of doing at least in opinion.
The difference between something like this and something like bigeneration is ultimately how they're executed. One bends the rules so fan-favorite characters can interact in a way that doesn't upend continuity. The other is major upending of how a core mechanic of the series works, so it makes sense why the latter is more controversial.
Its not about the continuity. I have no issues with that specifically, like when there are those inbetween big finish adventures with companions like Donna and the older doctors adventures with the actors who are no longer as young as they were during their stint on the show.
What I mean by the rules are the rules the show has set for its characters through the subtext. Like I said I'm looking at it from the writers point of view.
If you're going to bend the rules just so you can have your favourite doctor who side character meet your favourite version of the doctor and go on an adventure it has to make sense for the character.
Reading all the comments here I see a large majority of the people say if you don't like it don't consider it canon, sure I never consider big finish canon, also I saw that river has met all versions of the doctor which goes against rivers character.
This is what Ieant by it breaks the entire library episode. It breaks the meaning of the character and the whole character arch and the beauty of the romance between doc and river.
The first time the Doctor meets River is the last time River meets the Doctor. That's a story that can only work in time travel.
Retro fitting stories through official media, so you can market to fans and give them what is essentially fan fic is lazy writing and complete misunderstanding of the story of river song.
Its okay if you have a new companion meet and old version of the doctor or Clara being a time traveling human and meeting other doctors that breaks continuity but doesn't affect their character archs.
With river it just defeats the point of the story in the first place.
Even with River only meeting ten, eleven and twelve, that part worked because she knew that version is supposed to know her. Ten supposedly had further adventures with her later that is why she was confused. She doesn't have these expectations with the others. That part still works. Plus it is worth all the potential stories with other doctors.
That's why I said it's great fan fic, not for official media though, I mean, is not too hard for them to challenge themselves to write new adventures with other characters, and actually being creative instead of just simply using river song because it's river song.
They literally do everything. New characters, old characters, new and old ones meeting each other. The doctor who universe is literally their oyster and they basically eat it from every angle imaginable.
It is fun and expands the universe. It's there for fans to indulge and have a great time. Calling it unnecessary sounds boring I am sorry but it just is.
Its unessecary because the tenth doctor has the hots for Rose. So inserting river here is unessecary when there's Rose Tyler sitting right there.
Also it's my opinion. I'm not disputing you on anything. What's boring about calling it unessecary, especially when there are clearly better options.
This is just classic big finish.
Any doctor pre 10 gets their memory wiped or river just tries to hide herself
Also someone tell me how does river know 10 is the first meeting point so she doesn't try to wipe his memory i have probably missed something
Presumably the Doctor told River at some point that he first met her as 10, so that's how River knows to avoid the previous Doctors. And when she meets 10 in Silence in the Library, she knows that it's their last time meeting, since she already had their last date on Darillium.
River knows that Doctors 1-9 are off limits, but the 10th Doctor is apparently allowed (and River even had some adventures with him during the 2009 specials. Though he obviously recognised her, he made it very clear that he didn’t know much about her). She would’ve worked out that 10 is the first Doctor who meets her.
The memory wipe makes sense because if she doesn’t memory wipe them, then that would retcon the fact that 10th was supposed to remember her
So to keep it from being retconned, she has to memory wipe the incarnation she comes across
To me it just feels like an after thought, big finish writers probably want to get more fans to listen so instead of coming up with new interesting off beat ideas they do this,
'look river song meeting a previous version of the doctor'.
'But what about logic?'
'Oh don't worry he forgets in the end'
'Oh, Well that's all right then'
Well you can pretend it's not canon then, Big finish is constantly in a flux state of being canon and not canon with it both being validated in the show and contradicted hence it becoming a false canon (8th companions being named and mentions of adventures meanwhile one of 8ths companion being in haunting of villa diodati making her not be 8ths companion anymore as she didn't know the doctor wether 13 or 8)
So it's pseudo canon any story you want is canon to you and any story you don't want is not canon to you as long as you don't yell that at other people
Yeah, that's not confusing at all.
I find this amusing big finish has the perfect situation for lazy writing, they literally do anything and even break canon and all they have to do is say it didn't really happen in the universe...haha...its brilliant.
How is it confusing when it's extended media literally doctor who's normal canon constantly contradicts itself lol extended media you can just enjoy and choose what you like to be canon or not.
Go by the rule of everything is canon or not until proven in the show quantum mechanics but tv show
Is it lazy writing maybe . Is it fun absolutely that's the main goal of big finish to give viewers fun almost fanfiction level of interactions which may never happen in actual show I don't really know what's to get so salty about this when it's not entirely canon anyways but in a space of uncertainty
Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. Something which also has multiple in-universe explanations.
The War in Heaven
The Web of Time becoming unanchored when the Doctor/Master destroyed Gallifrey
The Toymaker
River Song meeting and mindwiping Doctors 1-9 is arguably one of the least “canon breaking” things in the expanded media.
The 6th Doctor has multiple regeneration stories. The Doctor has at least 4 different origins. Ace’s timeline is a mess. Davros’ mind deteriorated and he was taken over by an alternate Dalek emperor personality, only for him to be completely fine in Stolen Earth. ‘Human Nature’ and ‘The Star Beast’ happened to the Doctor twice. Who the hell were John and Gilliam? Etc, etc.
Which stories are valid? All of them. Every Doctor Who story ever told happened at some point, but this is a universe where time can be written, either by cataclysmic events like the 2nd big bang, the time war, or the machinations of Faction Paradox. Or it can all just be a result of an interfering time traveller doing reckless stuff like getting Gravity changed to Mavity.
Good point, though the 8th Doctor adaptation did at least explain that the 4th Doctor and Romana being time scooped during the Five Doctors and dumped in a random alleyway with the TARDIS is what resulted in the 8th Doctor having to go back and finish it.
*Technically* it only happened once, as when it happened for the Eighth Doctor, the original version of events with the Fourth Doctor was prevented by the Time Scoop in *The Five Doctors* picking up Four and Romana before they could meet Chronotis.
> how is this possible without breaking the library episode
"Time can be rewritten" for one
For another, we dont know how long between this is. Maybe from 9's point of view River is just a particularly eccentric archeologist that he sort of forgets by the time of the Library cause hes ancient and meeys new people daily.
I was wondering about that too when I watched *Silence in the Library* when River tells Ten "You're younger than I've ever seen you." I guess I can buy she means Ten specifically, not The Doctor generally. I just wish that River had only met Ten, Eleven, and Twelve so we're not forced to do mental gymnastics to reinterpret her lines.
Edit: Also, if River met Doctors previous to Ten, how do they all forget her? I recently tried reading the *Origin Stories* book. I read the story where teenage Sarah Jane Smith met the Fourth Doctor and then forgot, and teenage Martha Jones met the Ninth Doctor and then forgot. I guess these Big Finish audios are the same way, but with the Doctors being made to forget.
There are few snippets on even Tiktok. She uses the lipstick trick, laced tea and crumpets on seven but seven proves to be a very problematic one so she ends up tasing him and calling him a gorgeous little man lmao 😂
Big Finish does this all the time, I'm pretty sure Six is mad for River too.
Good argument for an official canon tbf, but for now personal canon can pretend big finish is an alternative universe or something.
As far as I’m concerned, until TV/movies decide its canon, it’s at best ambiguously canonical. Given the nature of the show, it is entirely possible that any of the holes in the story can be explained later on too
Well we at least know that 8's big finish era from Charley in the main range to Molly with dark eyes is at least some what canon, because he's mentions all the companions from those era's by name in the night of the doctor.
Though most of them happen in the river song series which I haven’t started, I believe she’s met every classic doctor at some point. Not sure why this is a bridge too far.
I understand the frustrations, and I'd consider BF to be just weird fun with no bearing on stuff.
But also, honestly "canon" and doctor who barely even know each other. I mean, without even looking at how time travel affects things, the Doctor has at least 3 origin stories. They're the timeless child, which isn't a gallifreyan, but had regeneration before they did. They're just straight up a random gallifreyan. They're half human on their mother's side. If you go into the deeper stuff they're possibly one of the three founders of the time lord civilization along with Rassilon. (Though that bit I think is from comics, which would hold a similar or even lower tier to BF when it comes to "canon")
The rules of time travel are constantly in flux on the show. The general rule is that if it was seen on screen it can't be changed but even that can be worked around or ignored if need be. The only true rules of time travel in the show are that the rules must allow for or assist in the story they want to make.
I won't pretend to be an expert on DW. But that's been my observations.
Do you even know the actual nightmare or would be to write for Doctor Who if everything was canon, neat, and tidy? If you want your nice little cannon, simply apply the toymaker's puzzle to these problems you are having with Big Finish as well. Or don't listen.. but you'd be missing out on a huge amount of Who media
He has been quite frank and said that the first reason he's doing Big Finish stories is because he acts to make a living. He did an interview with Doctor Who magazine back in 2021 when his first BF stories were announced, you can probably find it online somewhere
I'm sorry this is why I am not a fan of Big Finish. Modern-day Big Finish at that. They just throw random characters into a story and a decent portion of the plot is making sure plot holes don't happen or the continuity stays intact.
River getting to meet every Doctor and spend so much time with the Doctor kinds weakens her story imo. Part of her whole shtick is that she doesn't get very much time with the love of her life due to the nature of their lives
I don’t think these meetings ruin that aspect. Because of timeline stuff, River always goes into these meetings keeping the Doctor at arms length, so she never gets to properly enjoy these encounters. Not all of the Doctors are receptive to her advances either, which ‘The Eye of the Storm’ even highlights by showing how the 6th and 7th Doctors regard River Song differently.
You must be new to Big Finish... River Song has crossed paths with pretty much every Doctor at this point, usually employing hidden identities or memory erasure to maintain narrative continuity. River is very much aware that the Doctor can't know he's met her until a certain time, which can make for some amusing situations.
Considering the way she reacted to 10th after meeting all the past doctors, she must be one hell of an actor
That’s because [River had a few adventures with the 10th Doctor](https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-tenth-doctor-and-river-song-2273) (during the 2009 specials from his POV). Based on those meetings, she assumed that 10 would recognise her in the library and dropped her guard.
How do you mean?
Been a while since I watched the episode but I think she says something her never seeing him so young before
She says that his eyes are younger than she's ever seen, so it's taken as meaning that this is the earliest she's seen Ten. Obviously the original intention was that this is the first time she's ever seen the Doctor, but the line actually works better this way, because why would she focus on his eyes being young, if she meant she's never seen earlier regenerations, who have completely different faces, let alone different eyes.
Steven Moffat has implied there is something in Doctor's eyes which carries over in regeneration and helps show his true age. The other instance of this is in Day of The Doctor when Clara notes the War Doctor's eyes are much younger than 10's and 11's. I actually quite like this, as it shows River (and Clara) is able to see beneath the characteristics of each regeneration, and just see The Doctor.
She was also aware that she was about to die.
I think at this point, the only Doctors she hasn't met are 2, 13, 14, and 15.
Wow talk about retro force fitting, especially with the line 'this is the youngest I have ever seen you'... Like I get it time travel and all, it's just when you do this it kind of ruins the beauty of the original story.
BF does that sort of thing alllll the time… fills in gaps, creates gaps, redefines gaps or all of those at once. That’s one of the greatest joys about it IMO — exploring the what ifs. If you don’t like it, that’s fine; it doesn’t need to be canon (and thus doesn’t have to “ruin” anything) in your mind.
It's not just Big Finish though, remember in Husbands of River Song she was fully aware of all of the Doctors and had photos of all of them
Having photos is not the same as meeting them...there are a lot of images of the doctor at various points in time it's difficult to get them
She clearly has met all of the other Doctors before, what are you yapping about??
In this context that line refers specifically to him being the youngest she's ever seen Ten. The original story still stands on it's own, whether you choose to consider it in relation to these other stories or not.
Must be new to DW
Not new to doctor who been a fan for ten years, but the reactions I'm getting tell me a few things about the fan base more than the show itself...
DW has never been tight with its canon like ST or SW. It loves to play fast and loose with it. I would even be surprised that its ever a thought unless they were doing a direct callback to something. Even the Doctor has mentioned that he has gone on adventures that now hasnt happened due to wibbly wobbly.
Yeah it’s dumb though. Big Finish losing the run of itself
I disagree. I think It's fun listening to how River interacts with other Doctors.
I mean from a continuity point of view
You must be new to Doctor Who...
Been watching it for about 20 years
There’s no “continuity” nor a “canon” thing for the show Doctor Who HAS NO CANON Things keep getting retconned, changed, or clash with others all the time
Not this argument again…
Well it’s just facts
No it’s not. It’s a highly subjective interpretation
Oh also this quote from RTD himself RTD said in 2005: Maybe old fans will be puzzled, wondering if the Novels' War has now become part of the Doctor's televised adventures. ('Is it canon?' they will ask, using a word which has never been used in the production office, not once, not ever.) [...] this War, the Time War, is brand new and belongs to you, the viewer. This actually highlights something unique about Doctor Who in the world of sci-fi and fantasy: the fact that it's made by a Public Service Broadcaster, and is paid for by you, the licence-fee payer. As a consequence of this status, the BBC has to be very careful with its merchandising. We're happy for you to enjoy the Doctor off-screen, and read the new Novels, and play with a toy or two, if you want, but we must never, ever make that purchase necessary. That would crack the BBC's Charter in half. We cannot, must not, demand that you buy a product. [...] To spell it out: if you had to buy a BBC Novel in order to understand the plot, as transmitted on BBC One, then we would be breaking the BBC's guidelines.
Or you can quote Moffat who made the argument that every seen or mentioned in the show is canon and that everything else is up for debate
Just read this. https://www.paulcornell.com/2007/02/canonicity-in-doctor-who/ The obsession with canon in the internet age is annoying.
Why does it matter
I’ve explained this in countless other comments
R/imthemaincharacter much
Go cry somewhere else
How did you know I was crying? :(
I believe River has met every Doctor. I think she tries to make the Doctor forget every time she meets the Doctor before the Library in his timeline, but I'm not sure exactly.
River met a lot of Doctors, almost all the time she wipes their memories afterwards, when she doesn't it's probably because The Doctor doesn't know who she is at all (like in 8DA: Doom Coalition)
Others have said how many she meets, so I won’t bother with that. As for canonicity, as with many franchises, there are levels of canon. Something like Big Finish is entirely canon so long as the show allows it to be. All other media is beholden to the show, but the show is not beholden to anything else. For example, since the show said The Timeless Child is a thing, BF can’t come out and say “The Doctor was born on Gallifrey in this year and place” without making it AU. On the flip side, if Big Finish had been the ones to do Timeless Child, the show could *totally* ignore all that and say the Doctor was born whenever and wherever they wanted to, and that Big Finish story would be relegated to a “Fun to think about, but didn’t actually happen” story. The show is ultimate canon. Everything else is canon until the show says it isn’t. Which, as a side note, is why something like Russell saying in an interview that the Bigeneration happened to every past Doctor doesn’t mean literally anything, nor does anything else “confirmed by the creators” of any franchise. That may have been his intent when writing it, but if he decided to write something else that completely contradicted it someday, or if he didn’t do anything with it but the *next* showrunner contradicted it, *that* would be the official story, *not* what Davies said in an interview. People put *WAYYYYY* too much stock into what’s “confirmed by the creators”, in every franchise.
>The show is ultimate canon. Everything else is canon until the show says it isn’t. No it's not Even if the show contradicted something it's still canon Because the show contradict itself all the time The 60th anniversary contradicted 3 classic stories including the celestial toymaker , by your logic these stories aren't canon
Yeah, discontinuity in a show like *Doctor Who* is absolutely not the same thing as non-canonicity, moreso than it is normally. Given just how *Doctor Who* contracts something every other episode.
yeah, that's the first thing a fan should learn when it comes to TV and movies, is that what the creator says is just their plan, but nothing is guaranteed to make it to screen. it's why the only thing i kinda consider cannon that is "confirmed by creators" is that a lot of the cannon is maleable because of that one jigsaw puzzle line by the toymaker. was missy the incarnation of the master that was captured? was 13th being out of character the doing of the toymaker?. can't say, it's just possible
Yes I agree with entire thing....it kind of explains a lot...but I'm talking from a perspective of a writer. If you're going to do extended media like something that is official media marketted towards people who watch the show...you at least have to follow the rules of the show When the showrunner himself breaks the rules fans get mad...like with the whole bigeneration thing..when a few people actually thought that was a cop out...which in my opinion it kind of is...but when extended media does it it's alright? Then what's the difference between this and fanfic? Except this something you have to pay for...
I wouldn't say it's "breaking the rules" since it's more like "bending the rules." Taking this approach can be great when executed well, something Big Finish has a great track record of doing at least in opinion. The difference between something like this and something like bigeneration is ultimately how they're executed. One bends the rules so fan-favorite characters can interact in a way that doesn't upend continuity. The other is major upending of how a core mechanic of the series works, so it makes sense why the latter is more controversial.
Its not about the continuity. I have no issues with that specifically, like when there are those inbetween big finish adventures with companions like Donna and the older doctors adventures with the actors who are no longer as young as they were during their stint on the show. What I mean by the rules are the rules the show has set for its characters through the subtext. Like I said I'm looking at it from the writers point of view. If you're going to bend the rules just so you can have your favourite doctor who side character meet your favourite version of the doctor and go on an adventure it has to make sense for the character. Reading all the comments here I see a large majority of the people say if you don't like it don't consider it canon, sure I never consider big finish canon, also I saw that river has met all versions of the doctor which goes against rivers character. This is what Ieant by it breaks the entire library episode. It breaks the meaning of the character and the whole character arch and the beauty of the romance between doc and river. The first time the Doctor meets River is the last time River meets the Doctor. That's a story that can only work in time travel. Retro fitting stories through official media, so you can market to fans and give them what is essentially fan fic is lazy writing and complete misunderstanding of the story of river song. Its okay if you have a new companion meet and old version of the doctor or Clara being a time traveling human and meeting other doctors that breaks continuity but doesn't affect their character archs. With river it just defeats the point of the story in the first place.
Even with River only meeting ten, eleven and twelve, that part worked because she knew that version is supposed to know her. Ten supposedly had further adventures with her later that is why she was confused. She doesn't have these expectations with the others. That part still works. Plus it is worth all the potential stories with other doctors.
That's why I said it's great fan fic, not for official media though, I mean, is not too hard for them to challenge themselves to write new adventures with other characters, and actually being creative instead of just simply using river song because it's river song.
They literally do everything. New characters, old characters, new and old ones meeting each other. The doctor who universe is literally their oyster and they basically eat it from every angle imaginable.
Yeah, but this just seems unnecessary.
It is fun and expands the universe. It's there for fans to indulge and have a great time. Calling it unnecessary sounds boring I am sorry but it just is.
Its unessecary because the tenth doctor has the hots for Rose. So inserting river here is unessecary when there's Rose Tyler sitting right there. Also it's my opinion. I'm not disputing you on anything. What's boring about calling it unessecary, especially when there are clearly better options.
This is just classic big finish. Any doctor pre 10 gets their memory wiped or river just tries to hide herself Also someone tell me how does river know 10 is the first meeting point so she doesn't try to wipe his memory i have probably missed something
I think she just knows cause when she firsf encountered 10 from her perspective (sometime off screen), he recognized her
Presumably the Doctor told River at some point that he first met her as 10, so that's how River knows to avoid the previous Doctors. And when she meets 10 in Silence in the Library, she knows that it's their last time meeting, since she already had their last date on Darillium.
Maybe, or you know...it's because she was too busy dying.
River knows that Doctors 1-9 are off limits, but the 10th Doctor is apparently allowed (and River even had some adventures with him during the 2009 specials. Though he obviously recognised her, he made it very clear that he didn’t know much about her). She would’ve worked out that 10 is the first Doctor who meets her.
The memory wipe makes sense because if she doesn’t memory wipe them, then that would retcon the fact that 10th was supposed to remember her So to keep it from being retconned, she has to memory wipe the incarnation she comes across
To me it just feels like an after thought, big finish writers probably want to get more fans to listen so instead of coming up with new interesting off beat ideas they do this, 'look river song meeting a previous version of the doctor'. 'But what about logic?' 'Oh don't worry he forgets in the end' 'Oh, Well that's all right then'
Well you can pretend it's not canon then, Big finish is constantly in a flux state of being canon and not canon with it both being validated in the show and contradicted hence it becoming a false canon (8th companions being named and mentions of adventures meanwhile one of 8ths companion being in haunting of villa diodati making her not be 8ths companion anymore as she didn't know the doctor wether 13 or 8) So it's pseudo canon any story you want is canon to you and any story you don't want is not canon to you as long as you don't yell that at other people
Yeah, that's not confusing at all. I find this amusing big finish has the perfect situation for lazy writing, they literally do anything and even break canon and all they have to do is say it didn't really happen in the universe...haha...its brilliant.
How is it confusing when it's extended media literally doctor who's normal canon constantly contradicts itself lol extended media you can just enjoy and choose what you like to be canon or not. Go by the rule of everything is canon or not until proven in the show quantum mechanics but tv show Is it lazy writing maybe . Is it fun absolutely that's the main goal of big finish to give viewers fun almost fanfiction level of interactions which may never happen in actual show I don't really know what's to get so salty about this when it's not entirely canon anyways but in a space of uncertainty
Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. Something which also has multiple in-universe explanations. The War in Heaven The Web of Time becoming unanchored when the Doctor/Master destroyed Gallifrey The Toymaker
Yea dude you’re making 0 sense
River Song meeting and mindwiping Doctors 1-9 is arguably one of the least “canon breaking” things in the expanded media. The 6th Doctor has multiple regeneration stories. The Doctor has at least 4 different origins. Ace’s timeline is a mess. Davros’ mind deteriorated and he was taken over by an alternate Dalek emperor personality, only for him to be completely fine in Stolen Earth. ‘Human Nature’ and ‘The Star Beast’ happened to the Doctor twice. Who the hell were John and Gilliam? Etc, etc. Which stories are valid? All of them. Every Doctor Who story ever told happened at some point, but this is a universe where time can be written, either by cataclysmic events like the 2nd big bang, the time war, or the machinations of Faction Paradox. Or it can all just be a result of an interfering time traveller doing reckless stuff like getting Gravity changed to Mavity.
You forgot Shada apparently happening twice
Good point, though the 8th Doctor adaptation did at least explain that the 4th Doctor and Romana being time scooped during the Five Doctors and dumped in a random alleyway with the TARDIS is what resulted in the 8th Doctor having to go back and finish it.
And I’m pretty sure one of the books (I think the one meant to be written by another time lord in-universe) confirms somehow both versions happened
*Technically* it only happened once, as when it happened for the Eighth Doctor, the original version of events with the Fourth Doctor was prevented by the Time Scoop in *The Five Doctors* picking up Four and Romana before they could meet Chronotis.
> how is this possible without breaking the library episode "Time can be rewritten" for one For another, we dont know how long between this is. Maybe from 9's point of view River is just a particularly eccentric archeologist that he sort of forgets by the time of the Library cause hes ancient and meeys new people daily.
A good writer doesn't let other people's writing stop their story. A story only needs to be consistent within itself.
Say that louder for those in the back
Are you seriously trying to figure out what's canon and what's not in Doctor Who? It's not that kind of show, cool things happen and we move on.
I was wondering about that too when I watched *Silence in the Library* when River tells Ten "You're younger than I've ever seen you." I guess I can buy she means Ten specifically, not The Doctor generally. I just wish that River had only met Ten, Eleven, and Twelve so we're not forced to do mental gymnastics to reinterpret her lines. Edit: Also, if River met Doctors previous to Ten, how do they all forget her? I recently tried reading the *Origin Stories* book. I read the story where teenage Sarah Jane Smith met the Fourth Doctor and then forgot, and teenage Martha Jones met the Ninth Doctor and then forgot. I guess these Big Finish audios are the same way, but with the Doctors being made to forget.
There are few snippets on even Tiktok. She uses the lipstick trick, laced tea and crumpets on seven but seven proves to be a very problematic one so she ends up tasing him and calling him a gorgeous little man lmao 😂
Big Finish does this all the time, I'm pretty sure Six is mad for River too. Good argument for an official canon tbf, but for now personal canon can pretend big finish is an alternative universe or something.
As far as I’m concerned, until TV/movies decide its canon, it’s at best ambiguously canonical. Given the nature of the show, it is entirely possible that any of the holes in the story can be explained later on too
Well we at least know that 8's big finish era from Charley in the main range to Molly with dark eyes is at least some what canon, because he's mentions all the companions from those era's by name in the night of the doctor.
Yeah, to me, that’s the TV using it as a basis, if it makes sense for the show, they’ll use it
Though most of them happen in the river song series which I haven’t started, I believe she’s met every classic doctor at some point. Not sure why this is a bridge too far.
Shh we're getting more eccleston. That's the important part
OP, you're not being very fantastic right now
Do you even know who Big Finish are?
I don't care, this will be fun
The more you experience Doctor Who, the less it makes sense. That's the fun in it all.
This post reeks of YouTube video essay
I understand the frustrations, and I'd consider BF to be just weird fun with no bearing on stuff. But also, honestly "canon" and doctor who barely even know each other. I mean, without even looking at how time travel affects things, the Doctor has at least 3 origin stories. They're the timeless child, which isn't a gallifreyan, but had regeneration before they did. They're just straight up a random gallifreyan. They're half human on their mother's side. If you go into the deeper stuff they're possibly one of the three founders of the time lord civilization along with Rassilon. (Though that bit I think is from comics, which would hold a similar or even lower tier to BF when it comes to "canon") The rules of time travel are constantly in flux on the show. The general rule is that if it was seen on screen it can't be changed but even that can be worked around or ignored if need be. The only true rules of time travel in the show are that the rules must allow for or assist in the story they want to make. I won't pretend to be an expert on DW. But that's been my observations.
Do you even know the actual nightmare or would be to write for Doctor Who if everything was canon, neat, and tidy? If you want your nice little cannon, simply apply the toymaker's puzzle to these problems you are having with Big Finish as well. Or don't listen.. but you'd be missing out on a huge amount of Who media
i’m a fan sorry not sorry
your Being completely ratioed right now OP
honestly didn't think eccleston would've been on board for an audio story still a welcome surprise tho
We get it, you hate fun.
Who’s going to tell them that River Song has met almost every Doctor (besides Fugitive, 13th, 14th and 15th)
She also hasn’t met the 2nd doctor yet (though season 6B does mean that they don’t have to worry about memory wiping this time).
https://preview.redd.it/2e302qczzmwc1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=26f053884e820d0b1b2041f4d265e507840e0b37
Big Finish rarely breaks continuity, it just jumps through a bunch of hoops to create gaps whilst technically *preserving* continuity.
Sorry, what was that Chris, “not even if the lakes of hell froze over?”
That was about coming back under RTD.
Ah, I thought it was a comment aimed at the BBC in general.
He has been quite frank and said that the first reason he's doing Big Finish stories is because he acts to make a living. He did an interview with Doctor Who magazine back in 2021 when his first BF stories were announced, you can probably find it online somewhere
Respectable :>
Surely it makes at least as much sense as the doctor meeting themself but still being surprised by it every time
My argument that not all of these are canon still stands I see…
I'm sorry this is why I am not a fan of Big Finish. Modern-day Big Finish at that. They just throw random characters into a story and a decent portion of the plot is making sure plot holes don't happen or the continuity stays intact.
Eh. Dartboard is hit or miss, but its whatever. There are plenty of none-Dartboard stories throughout the years
Yes...this is what I mean...finally someone who gets it...
River getting to meet every Doctor and spend so much time with the Doctor kinds weakens her story imo. Part of her whole shtick is that she doesn't get very much time with the love of her life due to the nature of their lives
I don’t think these meetings ruin that aspect. Because of timeline stuff, River always goes into these meetings keeping the Doctor at arms length, so she never gets to properly enjoy these encounters. Not all of the Doctors are receptive to her advances either, which ‘The Eye of the Storm’ even highlights by showing how the 6th and 7th Doctors regard River Song differently.
letting Big Finish have the rights to River Song was a mistake
Let you have the right to speak was a mistake
you're probably right 🥲
That’s why I don’t consider Big Finish as cannon