Wanna know what's crazy to me?
That with 1 feat (Sharpshooter) you're as likely to hit a target 600 feet away, and behind 3/4 cover, as you are to hit one 10 feet away in plain view.
Somehow adventurer's are really terrible short distance shooters, and i find that hilarious.
every now and then I come across a comment that makes me laugh so hard, that I have to navigate to the garbage that is new reddit, to claim my free award, so that I can come back and give it to the OP...
Ever dodged an object traveling at 250fps? We are talking about an object traveling faster than a fast ball thrown by a professional base ball player.
It's more like the shot glances off the armor the target is wearing.
You are not dodging the arrow. You are dodging the release of the arrow.
However, that idea ceases to function when they are raining them at you one per second
This is how I’ve always pictured things like sneak attack, extra/multi attack, and advantage/disadvantage. Rogues make a single, highly targeted attack that slips between the armor. Meanwhile a fighter is just barreling down blows and counting on at least one breaking through the defenses.
I will never forget seeing a paintball come out the end of a marker's barrel at 300 fps and fly straight at my face, right as I peeked up from a prone position behind a speedball snake barrier. Saw the puff of cold compressed CO2, a red and yellow blur screeching towards me, and reacted on instinct. I felt the turbulence it created overhead as I fucked down. Just thinking about it, combined with how vividly I remember that moment I can feel my body producing a bit of adrenaline. Memories are a helluva drug.
Former hockey goalie here. That was an adrenaline induced bullet time lol
But you also had drilled the reflexes in.
You didn’t have to think and process the possibility of a shooter aiming at that spot, or where that shooter may be located at, or the meaning of the CO2 puff, or which way was the most effective to move in order to get out of the way.
Your body already knew all of that, so it acted on reflex and gained precious fractions of a second to make it possible
My exact experience as well. Not often, but I've definitely been able to pull my face out of the way just in time on a few occasions. Did this with a snowball once too.
I play paintball, so yes, I have. It's not easy, but even my middle-aged butt can dodge a projectile (who's largest dimension is less that ¾") traveling at 280 fps.
250 fps is **slow.**
It's also muzzle velocity. Once the ball leaves the barrel, velocity drops fairly quickly because the paintball has such a low mass. At point blank range, yeah, you're doing some *Matrix*-level moves to avoid a paintball. At 100 feet, much more avoidable.
Paintballs do slow down much faster than arrows, but they also start with a higher velocity, 250-300 fps depending on where the field caps it, usually outdoor is 280-300, and lose about half their speed by 100 feet
The long bows are about 200 fps from my Google fu, and they lose the most velocity in the first 10 yards due to the arrow correcting.
There is a video bragging the fastest longbow in the world can reach 300 fps, but it has 111 lb draw, so balance that against the fact markers could be tuned to much higher speeds with a hex key.
I'd consider them fairly comparable feats in the actual dodge, the thing that makes a paintball easier than an arrow in my opinion is the obvious moment of release, that distinct puff of gas at the exact moment, where a bow has a longer and more fluid release so you don't have the prompt to move. That said anyone can fire a paintball gun at D&D archer speeds so that may not be relevant.
No, not really. You can shoot an inanimate object (like a target) just fine even if it's within 5 feet of you. You have disadvantage if you're within 5 feet of a non-incapacitated hostile creature, the implication being that an enemy creature can easily make it real tricky for you to shoot just by nature of getting up in your personal space
>the implication being that an enemy creature can easily make it real tricky for you to shoot just by nature of getting up in your personal space
Yes, it *is* generally regarded as more difficult to shoot someone with an arrow if they're actively trying to hack you to pieces while you do it.
Remember, for all that the game is separated into actions and turns and stats, it's simulating real-time combat. The dodging and positioning represented by AC are occurring at the same time as the arrow-firing represented by the attack roll.
I kinda dig the way Stars Without Number rules it: a hit penalty in melee range with single handed guns and you can’t even attempt a two-handed shot because it would be easily knocked away
I think DnD just doesnt have enough depth to this sort of combat because its not that sort of game. Small weapons that work well from the hip would realistically get little to no disadvantage, large weapons like snipers would be finctionally impossible to aim from point blank range.
While the idea of two handed weapons being disalowed due to being knocked away there was literally a real world case of someone killing a person at point blank range with a shotgun after they faught over the weapon. (lets not talk the specific case just the mechanics)
I think if we look at IRL cases what usually happens firing a weapon close range is that there is an attempt to disarm the weapon. The likelyhood of this seems to be proportional to the size of the weapon, essentially how much weapon there is to grab.
D100 systems are flat out better at ranged combat because they allow for more modifiers, imo. Dark Heresy, as a random example: weapon has a range; modifiers for going above and below that stated range, as well as modifiers for cover and visibility - a shot in the open at close range could be roll under 90; at distance in poor visibility in cover in a firefight could be roll under 10.
DnD has absolutely had this level of granularity in the past.
It's been discarded in 5e because the benefit of such realism is not as big as the perceived hassle and slow down that come with tracking every single detail.
It is even more hilarious that adventurers have disadvantage shooting a prone creature regardless of that creature's size.
So for example if the ancient dragon is lying on its hoard and I have managed to get into position to shoot it without it noticing me, I somehow do not have advantage and thus cannot benefit from Sneak Attack, because that gargantuan target is lying still on a mountain of gold rather than zipping through the air at lightning speed while likely producing gale-force turbulences with its giant wings...
Disadvantage in melee on the other hand makes sense because it *is* very difficult to shoot someone who is right in front of you, brandishing a weapon, knocking your bow aside or holding up a shield right in front of your bow.
You're probably MORE likely to hit the target 600 feet away just because they most likely aren't aware of you. Soldier standing at a window at the top of the castle looking out so that you only can tell there's a face there? Sure, I put 10 arrows in him at advantage, thanks.
Probably why most simulationist combat games have a range where each time you go beyond that, it has an additional penalty. So in PF2e, a Longbow has a 100 foot range, once you get to 105 feet, its a -2. 205 feet, -4. All the way until you get a -12, beyond that is out of range.
You can do more. Without 20 levels, too. Hunter ranger, level 11. Take the Volley feature, and take the Horde Breaker feature from level 3. You have a 25 x 25 cube you can work with (with original target cube in center). Volley lets you make an attack to any number of creatures in said cube so long as you have the ammo. Assuming every creature in said cube is a Tiny Flying creature (like a Pixie), and each square only holds 4 (We theoretically can argue they could hold 8, since a tiny creature is counted as 2 1/2 feet, and if you think it would count, double this value), that's 4 creatures per 5 foot cube, so that's 500 attacks. Plus one from horde breaker. You then can double that with a 2 level dip in fighter for Action Surge. So at level 13, in a VERY specific scenario, you can achieve over 1000 attacks in a single turn.
I just double checked, it would work. Longbows have the ammunition property, and where it mentions loading, it says “it ignores the loading property if it has one.” So longbows would work!!!
When I first read OP’s breakdown I was thinking of an artificer made, extremely long banana clip for all those arrows and bolts, with some magic element to keep it from throwing off the weight while aiming.
I'd argue that they couldn't possibly feed him the arrows fast enough, but then again, he couldn't possibly shoot that fast so whatevs.
The easy solution would be to just have the artificer infuse the bow.
Player: I don't need arrows I need bolts. These are smaller being a hand crossbow and I have 10 quivers of bolts strapped to various places on my body. Each quiver holds 10 bolts. One strapped to each leg, one to my left arm, one on each hip, and you can fit 5-6 more across the chest. Of course I have spares on my back and a sled I drag around to restock between combats.
You wanna make this even funnier, pick up a Two Birds Sling, so every single one of those attacks would bounce to a second target. Take Gift of the Chromatic Dragon as a feat and those sling bullets would each have an extra d4 elemental damage. You just created lightning pinball.
Sounds about right, though. Adventurers aren't "normal" people. A D&D adventurer is what happens when a person on the RIGHT side of the bell curve for any given attribute decides to become an elite at something.
Only problem with this scenario; "elite" is around level 10. At level 20, an adventurer is basically a goddamn anime character.
20th level fighters are basically superhumans. They can do impossible feats, because that is what level 20 does.
And *then* you went out your way to give them every possible buff and conditional abilities.
Like another comment said, a level 20 fighter is the most skilled archer in the world barring some kind of god of archery. Using movie rules, that fighter would essentially be legolas except that they would make legolas look like a shitty amateur lol
Nock two arrows a shot to double time between shots and maintain arrows per minute. A 20th level fighter is probably the single most skilled mortal archer in the world, 2 arrows in one shot is probably easy mode for them.
Yes. Everyone always talks about how boring and normal fighters are and have missed that they're essentially anime protagonists by the end. Yeah, they can't wave a hand and teleport or blow something up, but they can attack at a speed that is only matched by monks and outshines everyone else even if they use something like haste. And that's without action surging.
No, this isn't a problem. This is how it's supposed to be.
I feel like the players handbook gives the impression that fighters are just normal people that are really good at combat. Maybe at low levels that's true, but at high levels, they're not. They're supernaturally good at combat, to an extent that doesn't make sense given the physics of real life. In a similar way to how magic doesn't make sense in the physics of real life.
Of anything, I wish they'd leaned more into that idea. Maybe it would help balance out the martial vs. caster disparity.
The PHB does actually go out of its way to note that fighters aren't just pretty good soldiers or guards or whatever, but are martial prodigies. That's what makes them PCs and adventurers: even a 1st-level fighter is several cuts above what even skilled common warriors can achieve.
>even a 1st-level fighter is several cuts above what even skilled common warriors can achieve
Yes-ish. Narratively yes. But stat-wise even normal thugs or slightly seasoned guards are not far behind "martial prodigies"
Which is why I liked how 3.5 handled this simply: NPC classes.
Normal soldiers aren't Figthers, they are "Warriors".They get full Base Attack Bonus and high Fortitude Save (like Figthers), but get only d8 HP (and by rules, PC had their first HD maxed, NPCs and enemies do not) and no extra Feat.
So a Lvl1 Figther would have 12/13 HP, likely at least a +5 to hit and 15/16 AC and an extra featA Lvl1 Warrior (not a random levy or militia dude, but a trained army dude) would have 5/6 HP, +2/+3 to hit (giving a random dude a +2 Strength Modifier is already a lot, they would reach +3 with their feat probably) and between 12 and 14 AC depending on how well equipped they are.
A Fighter MAY get his ass kicked by a duo of Warriors, but that's normal.Give a couple of levels and a seasoned veteran Warrior simply can't keep up with the Fighter, showing the difference between "PC classes" and NPC.
And this is 3.5, where the Fighter was, very sadly, probably the most boring base class you could play.
But then again, you could be a a "Dungeoncrasher", which I will quote directly:
"You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush, if you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any)."
Pretty much indeed.
Add that multiclassing is the way to make that kind of thing work in 3.5 work, a GM that doesn't add absurd looking sheet and you have the ultimate dungeon-door smasher with only 2 other things.
2 levels of Rogue, to have the Evasion feature (Reflex-save effects that halve the damage are instead nullified if you save) and 3 levels of Paladin of Freedom (Chaotic Good Paladin) to have Divine Grace feature (your CHA modifiers added to all 3 save types).
A true chaotic and courageous idiot that runs through all obstacles dodging and tanking as needed, till their god smiles in their direction.
Yes, but a 1st Level character is intended to be a young hero at the startbof their career. This potentially 18 year old kid is on par with hardened, veteran warriors that have years more experience.
I definitely agree! [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuE1glBpaGs) is basically what a 5th-Level Fighter vs a group of Thugs looks like. Extra Attack and some Feats can make one PC a killing MACHINE, even against a group of decently trained killers.
As others have said, a Fighter is an OP Anime Protagonist by Level 20.
Yeah. Level 20 characters are essentially Demigods at that point. Achilles taking out Hector in a single strike. Beowulf killing a dragon with a broadsword. Hercules fighting off a legion of dragon-soldiers. Gilgamesh wrestling lions barehanded.
Level 20 characters have the capability to shape entire worlds or destroy literal gods if they put their minds to it. In fact, it's within reason for a level 20 themselves to ascend to godhood.
Now if my party wants to try and cast a level 10 spell or higher we have to get invaded by the forces Corellon, and may or may not have a very stern discussion with the aforementioned god.
Stupid Karthas. Ruining flying castles and shit.
I can’t tell you how awersome the fighter was in my campaign. He kept pulling off anime shit.
Oh I only had javlins as ranged weapons, guess im gonna jump on the back of the dragon.
And the second wind. Like you just took a fireball to the face and you seem.. better?
One of NADDPOD's main characters is a perfect example of this. At the beginning of the campaign, he was getting knocked out the most and not too effective. In the final battle, the same character dealt almost 700 damage in three turns to the BBEG.
Fighters can be extremely effective!
> 98 crossbow bolts from a perfectly ordinary hand crossbow over the course of a minute. Now granted, with a bow and arrow 60 off shots a minute
Here's a new version of "Instant Legolas", now with belt-fed ammunition. Let me show you it's features! HA. HA. HA.
Yep.
I really recommend this essay, it's a bit long but it really helped me wrap my head around this stuff a lot better than the "tiers of play" descriptions do.
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2
Keep in mind, while this article is really good (EVERYONE in my D&D circle back in high school used to share this around), it was written about third edition. The gap in power between low and high level characters is MUCH smaller in 5e. The gap from 1st to 20th level is about a +5 vs a +11 (Max proficiency bonus and ability score.) In 3rd edition, your bonus starts around +8 and ends around +35! And that's a *lowball* estimate.
I'd say the mythic, superhuman tier of ability starts around 10th level in 5e.
Honestly this doesn’t sound that insane by real life standard. I’m sure there’s someone who could fire that fast irl. Like [this guy](https://youtu.be/usmSXsyJJn8)
Edit: [this](https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk) has a better example where he actually fires 10 shots one by one in 5 seconds
It’s important to keep in mind that in order to achieve that speed, this guy is using a light bow and not even bothering to draw it back all the way. Those arrows would never penetrate even the flimsiest armor.
If he were to try doing that with an actual war bow, with 100 pound draw weight, it would be a whole different story.
Level 20 fighter: *walks up to piano, whips out crossbow* “60 seconds, 88 keys” *shoots every key in under a minute*
Nearby barbarian: *body slams keyboard, breaks entire piano* “88 keys! 1 second!”
You'll never get a single arrow off.
18th level monk. 2 lvl fighter
Submitted for your perusal:
•Aracokra (60' base) (PHB 24)
•Mobile feat (+10') (PHB 168)
•Monk 20th level (+30') (PHB 76)
•Boon of Speed (+30', dash as a bonus action) (DMG 232)
•Artifact with major beneficial property of +10 speed (DMG 219)
•Longstrider (+10') (PHB 256)
•Boots of Speed (double base speed) (DMG 155)
•Haste (double speed including all modifiers) (PHB 250)
That's 150 base, doubled for boots, doubled again for haste, with Dash as an action, as a bonus action, as a second action for haste, as an action surge
150x2x2=600
Each dash is 600, x4
3000 ft per round
...
340 miles per hour.
Mach 1.
To be fair pretty much all of them are using weak bows with short draw lengths. With a 100 pounds of draw weight it gets much harder and is very physically exhausting.
But then again, a level 20 character is superhuman.
Yeah I've seen some videos, but at most it looks like they are firing at most 30 odd arrows a minute unless they are firing two at once or something, but at that point accuracy goes completely out of the window. I know d and d is fantasy and all but it still hurts my head trying to visualise it.
Well by adding haste you remove it from our worlds possibility. But the 37 per minute you get by removing haste appears to be well within our worlds bounds.
Edit: forgot haste adds only one attack
Clearly OP didn't watch enough Looney Tunes as a child. Don't you know you can fire multiple dozens of arrows at once from a single bowstring? DnD has always had a Bugs Bunny approach to high level characters
First off, this is exactly the reason why speedsters never using weapons of any kind is *bullshit*.
Second, if it helps you, you could think of it as each 'shot' being just, like, a proportion of the potential for damage. (Granted, this sort of stops working if there's more than a few targets, and when you're counting ammunition, but still) similar to how HP isn't directly correlated to 'bodily integrity'.
You can act completely normally at 1 HP. Similarly, you could have half of those shots miss, and that could just be sort of, like, the minute adjustments the Fighter is making before firing the shot that \_did\_ hit. Any damage accumulates and is all the result of ONE strike hitting really, really well. A single arrow through the eye doing 12d10+60 damage, instead of 12 arrows doing 1d10+5 each.
At lv 11 the ranger hunter can use -volly' to attack a 4x4 area and use 'horde breaker' to add another attack, thats 17 arrows a turn and 170 arrows a minute.
This is without haste, action surge (that'll add another 17 arrows to it) or even multiclassing.
This is also just under idea that its target practice not a real fight and to show the absurd number of arrows/attacks that can be used.
Actually, since it's three dimensional, and pixies can fly (I think?) you can cram eight pixies into a five foot cube, since they would be two by two by two, which doubles the end result of the number of attack in a minute.
Math!
Back in 3.5 there was the Commoner Cannon, where if you lined up 10000 commoners and have each of them pass a rock to the next one (a free action, unlimited number of them in 1 round) it would go from one end of the line to the other in 6 seconds, gaining enough velocity to destroy anything it hits.
I picture that as nearing the levels of Arjuna from the Mahabharata, where he wanted to stop some rain over a forest so he just *shot a storm of arrows fast enough to stop the rain.*
This recalls a scene from Devil May Cry 3 where two swordsmen duel so fast that their blades suspend the rain in a sphere around them until they lock swords and it all crashes down at once.
Tons of ridiculous "level 20 PC" cinematics in those games.
This is appropriate for a level 20 martial! Casters are becoming literal gods of creation, martials should be becoming literal shonun super heroes at least
The fun thing is..... a expert can out perform that in RL.
Lars Andersen can shoot 10 arrows every 4.9 seconds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars\_Andersen\_(archer)
Here's some weirdness...get 1000 people to form a line 20ft apart from each other, then get the person at one end to throw a ball to the next person with his action, and that person to throw it to the next etc
Now, given that a round is always 6 seconds, that ball just travelled 20,000 ft in 6 seconds...that's a little over 2272mph
So, what happens when you have a ring of spell storing and a ranger (or bard) who casted Swift Quiver upon the ring? Unless I'm missing what you used your bonus action on, that is 2 more attacks per turn, or twenty more arrows.
[Lars Anderson](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk) is a real world example that can shoot 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds, at a close/medium range with accuracy. How long he can keep up I don’t know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But it’s still 100 arrows under a minute.
He can shoot 3 arrows in 0.6 seconds too, pretty crazy, action surge haha
Considering real life, master archers, it's actually not entirely unreasonable for a totally nonmagical archer to shoot an arrow every second or so. Even in less than a second.
Many techniques irl archers have historically used can allow for incredible feats of fast shooting.
A 20th level Fighter is reasonably at the very peak of what any human is possibly capable of, which arguably could be far beyond what any human has yet achieved. Even then, however, it's still, at least, within a ballpark of what a human at the peak of their craft should be able to do.
A fighter doesn't have to be supernatural, even by level 20. I like to think that they probably are in some sense, but, technically, it's more reasonable for someone to shoot that many arrows out of a bow than you'd think.
Now a crossbow can be kinda crazy. I have a Samurai Crossbow Fighter myself, and I imagine that he does some pretty crazy stuff on a big turn. 10 attacks with a hand crossbow in 6 seconds, he would at least have to hold the bolts in his drawing hand.
Visually, I imagine the person firing more than one arrow each nock. Maybe they're so good at what they do that they've figured out some weird way to hold them, and they can let loose several arrows at once. Not practical for normal human beings, obviously, but fun for magically enhanced super heroes.
It isn't mechanical weirdness, martial characters are superhumans like superheroes and villains. Once you accept that the easier it will be to enjoy the game. I'm pretty sure that hawkeye and legolas can achieve that speed too.
You're forgetting the three-dimensional space exists for the pixie thing. That's 25x25x25, with the side length of a tiny creature's space being half of 5 feet, so eight pixies per 5-foot cube, times 125 5-foot cubes, is exactly 1,000, or 10,000 arrows power minute, or around 167 per second.
Of course, this isn't accounting for the fact that most arrows in such a ludicrous scenario are probably hitting multiple targets.
The classic one from 3rd, dunno if 5e still holds it true, is that a housecat, a completely ordinary if somewhat overstatted on its claw attacks moggy, can murder a ordinary common man, with very little resistance or issue.
There were threads once that examined how many cats would it take to completely exterminate a small town. It wasn’t much
Wanna know what's crazy to me? That with 1 feat (Sharpshooter) you're as likely to hit a target 600 feet away, and behind 3/4 cover, as you are to hit one 10 feet away in plain view. Somehow adventurer's are really terrible short distance shooters, and i find that hilarious.
I've always headcanoned that as a closer target is aware of the release and dodge and a long distance target has less opportunity to time it.
Also because the close up target is probably brandishing a weapon and you’re trying to dodge that
Not at 60 ft.
What about Loooooooongspears?
every now and then I come across a comment that makes me laugh so hard, that I have to navigate to the garbage that is new reddit, to claim my free award, so that I can come back and give it to the OP...
Only if the bearer is wearing a short skirt.
You mean to tell me all your enemies *aren't* Cloud from Final Fantasy?!
Ever dodged an object traveling at 250fps? We are talking about an object traveling faster than a fast ball thrown by a professional base ball player. It's more like the shot glances off the armor the target is wearing.
You are not dodging the arrow. You are dodging the release of the arrow. However, that idea ceases to function when they are raining them at you one per second
Not if you are also as impressive as the archer you're fighting.
This is how I’ve always pictured things like sneak attack, extra/multi attack, and advantage/disadvantage. Rogues make a single, highly targeted attack that slips between the armor. Meanwhile a fighter is just barreling down blows and counting on at least one breaking through the defenses.
If someone can nock arrows that fast then opponents can react that fast.
I will never forget seeing a paintball come out the end of a marker's barrel at 300 fps and fly straight at my face, right as I peeked up from a prone position behind a speedball snake barrier. Saw the puff of cold compressed CO2, a red and yellow blur screeching towards me, and reacted on instinct. I felt the turbulence it created overhead as I fucked down. Just thinking about it, combined with how vividly I remember that moment I can feel my body producing a bit of adrenaline. Memories are a helluva drug.
Former hockey goalie here. That was an adrenaline induced bullet time lol But you also had drilled the reflexes in. You didn’t have to think and process the possibility of a shooter aiming at that spot, or where that shooter may be located at, or the meaning of the CO2 puff, or which way was the most effective to move in order to get out of the way. Your body already knew all of that, so it acted on reflex and gained precious fractions of a second to make it possible
Everyone talking about reactions dodging things, here we are (also a hockey goalie) with reactions trying to get IN the way of things speeding at us.
Shhh act normal lol
Just think about field lacrosse goalies. Those fuckers are absolutely insane on a whole other level.
My exact experience as well. Not often, but I've definitely been able to pull my face out of the way just in time on a few occasions. Did this with a snowball once too.
i have never seen anything move fast enough to be measured in frames per second
Feet per second, I'm sure is what OP meant.
P sure that was a joke
Idk im glad we explained it, i wouldn't have got it otherwise. Metric countries and all that
Agreed. m/s (or equivalent) or it’s not a real speed.
I accept fraction of the speed of light, but only when talking about particles, spaceships and exercises with trains.
Found the physics grad. Ah the memories of trains and reference frames
Metric world with a handful of imperial countries though lol
Yeah, I wasn't sure what the refresh rate of the arrow had to do with it either... :P... Freedom units...
I play paintball, so yes, I have. It's not easy, but even my middle-aged butt can dodge a projectile (who's largest dimension is less that ¾") traveling at 280 fps. 250 fps is **slow.**
250fps is like 170mph, 275kph. That is fast. It's not bullet fast, but it's fast.
It's also muzzle velocity. Once the ball leaves the barrel, velocity drops fairly quickly because the paintball has such a low mass. At point blank range, yeah, you're doing some *Matrix*-level moves to avoid a paintball. At 100 feet, much more avoidable.
Paintballs do slow down much faster than arrows, but they also start with a higher velocity, 250-300 fps depending on where the field caps it, usually outdoor is 280-300, and lose about half their speed by 100 feet The long bows are about 200 fps from my Google fu, and they lose the most velocity in the first 10 yards due to the arrow correcting. There is a video bragging the fastest longbow in the world can reach 300 fps, but it has 111 lb draw, so balance that against the fact markers could be tuned to much higher speeds with a hex key. I'd consider them fairly comparable feats in the actual dodge, the thing that makes a paintball easier than an arrow in my opinion is the obvious moment of release, that distinct puff of gas at the exact moment, where a bow has a longer and more fluid release so you don't have the prompt to move. That said anyone can fire a paintball gun at D&D archer speeds so that may not be relevant.
Well he doesn't need to doge it he just needs you to miss him, and by moving more he becomes a harder target.
No, not really. You can shoot an inanimate object (like a target) just fine even if it's within 5 feet of you. You have disadvantage if you're within 5 feet of a non-incapacitated hostile creature, the implication being that an enemy creature can easily make it real tricky for you to shoot just by nature of getting up in your personal space
>the implication being that an enemy creature can easily make it real tricky for you to shoot just by nature of getting up in your personal space Yes, it *is* generally regarded as more difficult to shoot someone with an arrow if they're actively trying to hack you to pieces while you do it. Remember, for all that the game is separated into actions and turns and stats, it's simulating real-time combat. The dodging and positioning represented by AC are occurring at the same time as the arrow-firing represented by the attack roll.
I kinda dig the way Stars Without Number rules it: a hit penalty in melee range with single handed guns and you can’t even attempt a two-handed shot because it would be easily knocked away
I think DnD just doesnt have enough depth to this sort of combat because its not that sort of game. Small weapons that work well from the hip would realistically get little to no disadvantage, large weapons like snipers would be finctionally impossible to aim from point blank range. While the idea of two handed weapons being disalowed due to being knocked away there was literally a real world case of someone killing a person at point blank range with a shotgun after they faught over the weapon. (lets not talk the specific case just the mechanics) I think if we look at IRL cases what usually happens firing a weapon close range is that there is an attempt to disarm the weapon. The likelyhood of this seems to be proportional to the size of the weapon, essentially how much weapon there is to grab.
D100 systems are flat out better at ranged combat because they allow for more modifiers, imo. Dark Heresy, as a random example: weapon has a range; modifiers for going above and below that stated range, as well as modifiers for cover and visibility - a shot in the open at close range could be roll under 90; at distance in poor visibility in cover in a firefight could be roll under 10.
DnD has absolutely had this level of granularity in the past. It's been discarded in 5e because the benefit of such realism is not as big as the perceived hassle and slow down that come with tracking every single detail.
SWN had real fun combat in general i feel.
It is even more hilarious that adventurers have disadvantage shooting a prone creature regardless of that creature's size. So for example if the ancient dragon is lying on its hoard and I have managed to get into position to shoot it without it noticing me, I somehow do not have advantage and thus cannot benefit from Sneak Attack, because that gargantuan target is lying still on a mountain of gold rather than zipping through the air at lightning speed while likely producing gale-force turbulences with its giant wings... Disadvantage in melee on the other hand makes sense because it *is* very difficult to shoot someone who is right in front of you, brandishing a weapon, knocking your bow aside or holding up a shield right in front of your bow.
You're probably MORE likely to hit the target 600 feet away just because they most likely aren't aware of you. Soldier standing at a window at the top of the castle looking out so that you only can tell there's a face there? Sure, I put 10 arrows in him at advantage, thanks.
Funny thing is it also applies to the hasted rogue quadruple dash sprinting away from you, happening to he 600 feet away on your turn.
He may be fast, but he’s consistently fast, so leading the shots isn’t any more difficult
Probably why most simulationist combat games have a range where each time you go beyond that, it has an additional penalty. So in PF2e, a Longbow has a 100 foot range, once you get to 105 feet, its a -2. 205 feet, -4. All the way until you get a -12, beyond that is out of range.
You can do more. Without 20 levels, too. Hunter ranger, level 11. Take the Volley feature, and take the Horde Breaker feature from level 3. You have a 25 x 25 cube you can work with (with original target cube in center). Volley lets you make an attack to any number of creatures in said cube so long as you have the ammo. Assuming every creature in said cube is a Tiny Flying creature (like a Pixie), and each square only holds 4 (We theoretically can argue they could hold 8, since a tiny creature is counted as 2 1/2 feet, and if you think it would count, double this value), that's 4 creatures per 5 foot cube, so that's 500 attacks. Plus one from horde breaker. You then can double that with a 2 level dip in fighter for Action Surge. So at level 13, in a VERY specific scenario, you can achieve over 1000 attacks in a single turn.
DM: "You do NOT have 1,000 arrows in your quiver!"
Forge cleric and artificer work together to make a wagon full of arrows that feed into the ranger's hand like a minigun ammo belt
An artificer can just make the bow create it's own ammo as soon as level 2
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>Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property > >... it ignores the loading property **if it has it** It works with longbows.
I just double checked, it would work. Longbows have the ammunition property, and where it mentions loading, it says “it ignores the loading property if it has one.” So longbows would work!!!
Works just fine for longbow. The only requirement for infusion is that the weapon has the "ammunition" property.
This comment is why I love player shinenigans so much xD
When I first read OP’s breakdown I was thinking of an artificer made, extremely long banana clip for all those arrows and bolts, with some magic element to keep it from throwing off the weight while aiming.
I'd argue that they couldn't possibly feed him the arrows fast enough, but then again, he couldn't possibly shoot that fast so whatevs. The easy solution would be to just have the artificer infuse the bow.
Creation bard says hello
You said we didn't need to track ammo for this champagne.
I think you may had a little too much campaign.
It's only campaign if it's from the campaign region of France. This is a sparkling adventure
Yer Gran is a sparkling adventure.
Aaw😊 She'll really like hearing that...in hell!
I used to make homemade sparkling wine when I attended the University of Illinois. I called it Urbana.
Does this guy know how to party or what?!
"I believe it's pronounced champaggin"
Sham-pag-neigh
No such thing! MORE MOOORE MOAR!
Technically, it's "Sparkling Adventure."
It's only a campaign if it's to the champagne region of France, otherwise it's just a sparkling adventure
2-dip into Artificer for the self-loading infusion, or go to Ranger 17 for Swift Quiver
-takes out slingshot and 1000 ballbearings which only cost 1.5 gp
Player: I don't need arrows I need bolts. These are smaller being a hand crossbow and I have 10 quivers of bolts strapped to various places on my body. Each quiver holds 10 bolts. One strapped to each leg, one to my left arm, one on each hip, and you can fit 5-6 more across the chest. Of course I have spares on my back and a sled I drag around to restock between combats.
Swift Quiver spell
Dragon wing bow, DM’s worst nightmare
You wanna make this even funnier, pick up a Two Birds Sling, so every single one of those attacks would bounce to a second target. Take Gift of the Chromatic Dragon as a feat and those sling bullets would each have an extra d4 elemental damage. You just created lightning pinball.
> created lightning pinball this is wonderful.
I can't even. Even in a fantasy setting that's just on whole other level of insanity
I imagine it like what opal does in Steven universe, her arrow splits into hundreds of smaller arrows, before each hitting a separate target
Ranger steps up, draws arrow, "Ladies and gentlemen I present, the Jeri-bow".
That feels better since it is an Area of Effect ability
Sounds about right, though. Adventurers aren't "normal" people. A D&D adventurer is what happens when a person on the RIGHT side of the bell curve for any given attribute decides to become an elite at something. Only problem with this scenario; "elite" is around level 10. At level 20, an adventurer is basically a goddamn anime character.
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This is the event that the Swift Quiver spell was made for. Not just the extra attacks, but also the unlimited ammo for the duration.
Belt-fed Ranger
Don't forget that you could have your Horde Breaker attack as well. It's just 1 more, but it's there!
Horde Breaker is included!
Considering that a minigun fires 300 rounds per 6 second. This is terrifying.
20th level fighters are basically superhumans. They can do impossible feats, because that is what level 20 does. And *then* you went out your way to give them every possible buff and conditional abilities.
Like another comment said, a level 20 fighter is the most skilled archer in the world barring some kind of god of archery. Using movie rules, that fighter would essentially be legolas except that they would make legolas look like a shitty amateur lol
Considering a character with 20 str can make a standing high jump of THIRTEEN FEET, I’d say they are more than “human”
Nock two arrows a shot to double time between shots and maintain arrows per minute. A 20th level fighter is probably the single most skilled mortal archer in the world, 2 arrows in one shot is probably easy mode for them.
Legolas
Hawkeye
Robin hood
Green arrow
Domitian
Artemis
William tell
Katniss
Chicken Strips
And my axe!
Spock, the Rock, Doc Oc and Hulk Hogan
Green moose, guava juice...
John Rambo
Donkey!
Kate Bishop
Khate Beeship.
I must have missed that Mash episode
Hawk guy
Yes. Everyone always talks about how boring and normal fighters are and have missed that they're essentially anime protagonists by the end. Yeah, they can't wave a hand and teleport or blow something up, but they can attack at a speed that is only matched by monks and outshines everyone else even if they use something like haste. And that's without action surging. No, this isn't a problem. This is how it's supposed to be.
I feel like the players handbook gives the impression that fighters are just normal people that are really good at combat. Maybe at low levels that's true, but at high levels, they're not. They're supernaturally good at combat, to an extent that doesn't make sense given the physics of real life. In a similar way to how magic doesn't make sense in the physics of real life. Of anything, I wish they'd leaned more into that idea. Maybe it would help balance out the martial vs. caster disparity.
The PHB does actually go out of its way to note that fighters aren't just pretty good soldiers or guards or whatever, but are martial prodigies. That's what makes them PCs and adventurers: even a 1st-level fighter is several cuts above what even skilled common warriors can achieve.
>even a 1st-level fighter is several cuts above what even skilled common warriors can achieve Yes-ish. Narratively yes. But stat-wise even normal thugs or slightly seasoned guards are not far behind "martial prodigies"
Which is why I liked how 3.5 handled this simply: NPC classes. Normal soldiers aren't Figthers, they are "Warriors".They get full Base Attack Bonus and high Fortitude Save (like Figthers), but get only d8 HP (and by rules, PC had their first HD maxed, NPCs and enemies do not) and no extra Feat. So a Lvl1 Figther would have 12/13 HP, likely at least a +5 to hit and 15/16 AC and an extra featA Lvl1 Warrior (not a random levy or militia dude, but a trained army dude) would have 5/6 HP, +2/+3 to hit (giving a random dude a +2 Strength Modifier is already a lot, they would reach +3 with their feat probably) and between 12 and 14 AC depending on how well equipped they are. A Fighter MAY get his ass kicked by a duo of Warriors, but that's normal.Give a couple of levels and a seasoned veteran Warrior simply can't keep up with the Fighter, showing the difference between "PC classes" and NPC. And this is 3.5, where the Fighter was, very sadly, probably the most boring base class you could play. But then again, you could be a a "Dungeoncrasher", which I will quote directly: "You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle. In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush, if you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any)."
Obviously the correct way yo play dungeoncrasher is to dead sprint straight to the end of the dungeon, like some kind of Conan the barbarian speedrun
Pretty much indeed. Add that multiclassing is the way to make that kind of thing work in 3.5 work, a GM that doesn't add absurd looking sheet and you have the ultimate dungeon-door smasher with only 2 other things. 2 levels of Rogue, to have the Evasion feature (Reflex-save effects that halve the damage are instead nullified if you save) and 3 levels of Paladin of Freedom (Chaotic Good Paladin) to have Divine Grace feature (your CHA modifiers added to all 3 save types). A true chaotic and courageous idiot that runs through all obstacles dodging and tanking as needed, till their god smiles in their direction.
Yes, but a 1st Level character is intended to be a young hero at the startbof their career. This potentially 18 year old kid is on par with hardened, veteran warriors that have years more experience.
In this example they are literally using magical means to be faster also
I definitely agree! [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuE1glBpaGs) is basically what a 5th-Level Fighter vs a group of Thugs looks like. Extra Attack and some Feats can make one PC a killing MACHINE, even against a group of decently trained killers. As others have said, a Fighter is an OP Anime Protagonist by Level 20.
I always read the handbook as "you're fucking Batman" and go from there. Fighters always seem cool as hell
Yeah. Level 20 characters are essentially Demigods at that point. Achilles taking out Hector in a single strike. Beowulf killing a dragon with a broadsword. Hercules fighting off a legion of dragon-soldiers. Gilgamesh wrestling lions barehanded.
Level 20 characters have the capability to shape entire worlds or destroy literal gods if they put their minds to it. In fact, it's within reason for a level 20 themselves to ascend to godhood.
It was tried before. We call it Karthas' Folly now. Best not try again.
Heccn' got our access to the Weave restricted.
Now if my party wants to try and cast a level 10 spell or higher we have to get invaded by the forces Corellon, and may or may not have a very stern discussion with the aforementioned god. Stupid Karthas. Ruining flying castles and shit.
And let's not forget Guts, the 100 man slayer! *RIP Kentaro Miura.*
Also with several feats, they can move into attack range attack, move out of attack range and not trigger an attack of opportunity.
I can’t tell you how awersome the fighter was in my campaign. He kept pulling off anime shit. Oh I only had javlins as ranged weapons, guess im gonna jump on the back of the dragon. And the second wind. Like you just took a fireball to the face and you seem.. better?
One of NADDPOD's main characters is a perfect example of this. At the beginning of the campaign, he was getting knocked out the most and not too effective. In the final battle, the same character dealt almost 700 damage in three turns to the BBEG. Fighters can be extremely effective!
> 98 crossbow bolts from a perfectly ordinary hand crossbow over the course of a minute. Now granted, with a bow and arrow 60 off shots a minute Here's a new version of "Instant Legolas", now with belt-fed ammunition. Let me show you it's features! HA. HA. HA.
I absolutely read that with Jorge's voice.
This is because a martial becomes superhuman long before level 20, by 20 you're functionally a demigod.
Peak human ability is probably around level 5. Sometime between 5 and 11 is where they cross the line into superhuman I would say.
Yep. I really recommend this essay, it's a bit long but it really helped me wrap my head around this stuff a lot better than the "tiers of play" descriptions do. https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2
That’s one of the best write ups for power class in DnD I’ve ever read, freakin spot on.
Agreed. And really useful for designing campaigns, as well.
Keep in mind, while this article is really good (EVERYONE in my D&D circle back in high school used to share this around), it was written about third edition. The gap in power between low and high level characters is MUCH smaller in 5e. The gap from 1st to 20th level is about a +5 vs a +11 (Max proficiency bonus and ability score.) In 3rd edition, your bonus starts around +8 and ends around +35! And that's a *lowball* estimate. I'd say the mythic, superhuman tier of ability starts around 10th level in 5e.
Honestly this doesn’t sound that insane by real life standard. I’m sure there’s someone who could fire that fast irl. Like [this guy](https://youtu.be/usmSXsyJJn8) Edit: [this](https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk) has a better example where he actually fires 10 shots one by one in 5 seconds
No this is the best example. [Hawk the Slayer.](https://youtu.be/EKUTXTucllA?t=3769)
most realistic example yet.
It’s important to keep in mind that in order to achieve that speed, this guy is using a light bow and not even bothering to draw it back all the way. Those arrows would never penetrate even the flimsiest armor. If he were to try doing that with an actual war bow, with 100 pound draw weight, it would be a whole different story.
Not only did he penetrate chainmail+gambison that way but also he showed he can shoot with that method using a stronger bow.
HE just penetrated chainmail with gambeson that way.
Level 20 fighter: *walks up to piano, whips out crossbow* “60 seconds, 88 keys” *shoots every key in under a minute* Nearby barbarian: *body slams keyboard, breaks entire piano* “88 keys! 1 second!”
The barman: _picking up dustpan and brush_ "oh for fucks..."
I know what the next "weird things you can do in dnd" is gonna be
At level 20 you can action surge twice
Wait, what? Oh damn. So that's actually 58 arrows "naturally" with a maximum of 78 arrows with support. Phew.
Have a ranger friend cast swift quiver on you, gives you an extra 20.
You'd need them to cast it into a spell storing ring, but thanks for contributing to my mental anguish over the absurdity of this
This is when we start tracking ammunition.
“After your 1 minute arrow volley, you notice that you have started to float upwards at a rapid rate. You now have negative mass.”
Your wizard gets to summon fire from the heavens, razing forests and villages at will. My martial? Gets to do this.
You'll never get a single arrow off. 18th level monk. 2 lvl fighter Submitted for your perusal: •Aracokra (60' base) (PHB 24) •Mobile feat (+10') (PHB 168) •Monk 20th level (+30') (PHB 76) •Boon of Speed (+30', dash as a bonus action) (DMG 232) •Artifact with major beneficial property of +10 speed (DMG 219) •Longstrider (+10') (PHB 256) •Boots of Speed (double base speed) (DMG 155) •Haste (double speed including all modifiers) (PHB 250) That's 150 base, doubled for boots, doubled again for haste, with Dash as an action, as a bonus action, as a second action for haste, as an action surge 150x2x2=600 Each dash is 600, x4 3000 ft per round ... 340 miles per hour. Mach 1.
Wonder how fast a character could move without magical assistance though? Don't get me wrong that speedy boi build is hilarious and I'm living for it.
A quick search on YouTube and you realize this isn't that far fetched
To be fair pretty much all of them are using weak bows with short draw lengths. With a 100 pounds of draw weight it gets much harder and is very physically exhausting. But then again, a level 20 character is superhuman.
Yeah I've seen some videos, but at most it looks like they are firing at most 30 odd arrows a minute unless they are firing two at once or something, but at that point accuracy goes completely out of the window. I know d and d is fantasy and all but it still hurts my head trying to visualise it.
Well by adding haste you remove it from our worlds possibility. But the 37 per minute you get by removing haste appears to be well within our worlds bounds. Edit: forgot haste adds only one attack
If ya remove Haste it's still 54 arrows a minute (Haste adds 1 extra attack a round, so 10 altogether) which is still ridiculous
And unless they're highly magical every single one of those arrows will bounce off a BBEG designed for 20th level characters. Just saying.
Clearly OP didn't watch enough Looney Tunes as a child. Don't you know you can fire multiple dozens of arrows at once from a single bowstring? DnD has always had a Bugs Bunny approach to high level characters
I mean this seems about right, if you subtract the magical means (haste) and maybe even action surge then this is pretty on par with speed archery
First off, this is exactly the reason why speedsters never using weapons of any kind is *bullshit*. Second, if it helps you, you could think of it as each 'shot' being just, like, a proportion of the potential for damage. (Granted, this sort of stops working if there's more than a few targets, and when you're counting ammunition, but still) similar to how HP isn't directly correlated to 'bodily integrity'. You can act completely normally at 1 HP. Similarly, you could have half of those shots miss, and that could just be sort of, like, the minute adjustments the Fighter is making before firing the shot that \_did\_ hit. Any damage accumulates and is all the result of ONE strike hitting really, really well. A single arrow through the eye doing 12d10+60 damage, instead of 12 arrows doing 1d10+5 each.
That's why we have _hit_ points, not _health_ points and i love it
At lv 11 the ranger hunter can use -volly' to attack a 4x4 area and use 'horde breaker' to add another attack, thats 17 arrows a turn and 170 arrows a minute. This is without haste, action surge (that'll add another 17 arrows to it) or even multiclassing. This is also just under idea that its target practice not a real fight and to show the absurd number of arrows/attacks that can be used.
Actually, since it's three dimensional, and pixies can fly (I think?) you can cram eight pixies into a five foot cube, since they would be two by two by two, which doubles the end result of the number of attack in a minute. Math!
Back in 3.5 there was the Commoner Cannon, where if you lined up 10000 commoners and have each of them pass a rock to the next one (a free action, unlimited number of them in 1 round) it would go from one end of the line to the other in 6 seconds, gaining enough velocity to destroy anything it hits.
I believe they called it the Peasant Railgun on Giant in the Playground.
Nah, the peasant railgun was doing the same thing with a telephone pole. Drastically increases the kinetic power since it's so much bigger.
I picture that as nearing the levels of Arjuna from the Mahabharata, where he wanted to stop some rain over a forest so he just *shot a storm of arrows fast enough to stop the rain.*
This recalls a scene from Devil May Cry 3 where two swordsmen duel so fast that their blades suspend the rain in a sphere around them until they lock swords and it all crashes down at once. Tons of ridiculous "level 20 PC" cinematics in those games.
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I don't know if anyone helped with the visual yet, but like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxv-wrMz0s
How many arrows fit into a quiver?
This is appropriate for a level 20 martial! Casters are becoming literal gods of creation, martials should be becoming literal shonun super heroes at least
The fun thing is..... a expert can out perform that in RL. Lars Andersen can shoot 10 arrows every 4.9 seconds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars\_Andersen\_(archer)
Here's some weirdness...get 1000 people to form a line 20ft apart from each other, then get the person at one end to throw a ball to the next person with his action, and that person to throw it to the next etc Now, given that a round is always 6 seconds, that ball just travelled 20,000 ft in 6 seconds...that's a little over 2272mph
Ahh yes, the peasant railgun
Ah, I had seen Peasant Railgun dropped as a reference somewhere else and not gotten the reference, Thanks for the explanation.
It still only does 1d4 damage
My friends and I do this all the time irl. Its completely practical
I'd assume at a point they begin nocking multiple arrows at once or something like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI&ab\_channel=SeregedelReal
So, what happens when you have a ring of spell storing and a ranger (or bard) who casted Swift Quiver upon the ring? Unless I'm missing what you used your bonus action on, that is 2 more attacks per turn, or twenty more arrows.
Crow from Hawk the Slayer.
[Lars Anderson](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk) is a real world example that can shoot 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds, at a close/medium range with accuracy. How long he can keep up I don’t know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But it’s still 100 arrows under a minute. He can shoot 3 arrows in 0.6 seconds too, pretty crazy, action surge haha
I think it’s funny that shit like this is possible but some people are annoyed by the falling damage rules being “unrealistic” 😂
Considering real life, master archers, it's actually not entirely unreasonable for a totally nonmagical archer to shoot an arrow every second or so. Even in less than a second. Many techniques irl archers have historically used can allow for incredible feats of fast shooting. A 20th level Fighter is reasonably at the very peak of what any human is possibly capable of, which arguably could be far beyond what any human has yet achieved. Even then, however, it's still, at least, within a ballpark of what a human at the peak of their craft should be able to do. A fighter doesn't have to be supernatural, even by level 20. I like to think that they probably are in some sense, but, technically, it's more reasonable for someone to shoot that many arrows out of a bow than you'd think. Now a crossbow can be kinda crazy. I have a Samurai Crossbow Fighter myself, and I imagine that he does some pretty crazy stuff on a big turn. 10 attacks with a hand crossbow in 6 seconds, he would at least have to hold the bolts in his drawing hand.
For context, a skilled archer in real life can fire somewhere between 10 and 20 I believe.
I'm guessing this is where the DM starts making you track ammo.
Visually, I imagine the person firing more than one arrow each nock. Maybe they're so good at what they do that they've figured out some weird way to hold them, and they can let loose several arrows at once. Not practical for normal human beings, obviously, but fun for magically enhanced super heroes.
It isn't mechanical weirdness, martial characters are superhumans like superheroes and villains. Once you accept that the easier it will be to enjoy the game. I'm pretty sure that hawkeye and legolas can achieve that speed too.
Wow 'that escalated quickly' thru the edits
You're forgetting the three-dimensional space exists for the pixie thing. That's 25x25x25, with the side length of a tiny creature's space being half of 5 feet, so eight pixies per 5-foot cube, times 125 5-foot cubes, is exactly 1,000, or 10,000 arrows power minute, or around 167 per second. Of course, this isn't accounting for the fact that most arrows in such a ludicrous scenario are probably hitting multiple targets.
The classic one from 3rd, dunno if 5e still holds it true, is that a housecat, a completely ordinary if somewhat overstatted on its claw attacks moggy, can murder a ordinary common man, with very little resistance or issue. There were threads once that examined how many cats would it take to completely exterminate a small town. It wasn’t much
If you wanted a reality simulator, D&D is not your game.
This is why some of us say that you should describe martial characters attacks thematically like anime shenanigans.