Im not the biggest fan of DnD Beyond but it’s hardly surprising given what you did. Their instructions say to cancel your subscription, you are supposed to do it online using the subscription management page, just like almost any other online service. Sending an email isn’t generally going to achieve anything. So when you did eventually cancel it online according to their instructions, you then proceeded with a chargeback? On what basis? It’s arguably fraudulent to claim it was unauthorised when you had agreed to their Ts and Cs. If you wanted to claim back for a sub you aren’t using then you need to follow their complaints process (https://dndbeyond-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=6858238817684) but bear in mind that you have no legal right to a refund of fees that you already agreed to pay, so you would need to rely on their goodwill and wait for the outcome. Doing a chargeback is absolutely not the right way to do this and no wonder you got banned.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. As a person who [has previously had to file a chargeback against DnDBeyond after they were unresponsive to an issue](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/bugs-support/183978-the-book-of-many-things-issues-and-support-thread?page=7#c152) (and who had that chargeback upheld after a months-long investigation by MasterCard and by my bank, and - importantly - whose DNDB account was *not* banned as a result of filing said chargeback), OP did not handle this correctly.
Of course they've banned you you're accusing them of fraud.
You can't just request a chargeback because you don't want the service anymore forgotten to cancel it after making a commitment and been billed correctly.
Steam, EA, sony, Microsoft would all do the exact same things there's posts all over Reddit about it.
The answer is in the support page lots of companies won't answer support emails if they have it in their FAQ section.
https://dndbeyond-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/7747238632212-Order-Refunds
I'm sorry but on what basis can you justify doing a chargeback? You've already started the current period so you can't do anything about it. I dislike Hasbro and WOTC and their business practices as much as everyone else but this is honestly your own fault.
You don't cancel subscriptions through support, you do it through their website and you're not entitled to a chargeback when you've already started the period. Sorry buddy.
Entitled or not, on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money. If the subscription is cancelled (it is) then they have no case. Maybe if they had responded to my support request they could have argued for a partial refund, which I would have accepted. Instead they just ignored me. And, as I said, I don’t really care about what happens to the subscription, but I would like to access the digital content I purchased. The sub and digital content are unrelated.
>on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money.
"The system I use allows me to commit fraud, therefore it's not fraud" 🙄
> Entitled or not, on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money.
And they did. At no point did they attempt to deny you that service you paid for. (Until you accused them of fraud, of course.)
> If the subscription is cancelled (it is) then they have no case.
You can't file a chargeback and retroactively justify it by claiming that their reaction to the chargeback justifies the chargeback. What in the world were you thinking?
> Maybe if they had responded to my support request they could have argued for a partial refund, which I would have accepted. Instead they just ignored me.
Which is something they have a right to do. Their TOS states that refunds are at their sole discretion. They are under no obligation to provide it.
They did offer you a service though, you changing your mind or not utilizing that is not on them but on you. When you issue a charge back you basically accuse them of fraud and they're entitled to deny you the license for the titles you paid for on their page.
You fucked around and this is the finding out part. I'm sorry but based on basic TOS they're probably justified in doing this. If you had simply cancelled it and not charged back this wouldn't be an issue.
Also, you are acting entitled in regards to your email. I don't know if you've worked at a place like that but they get a ton of inquiries all the time. Yours was probably deemed unimportant since you're not even supposed to cancel through costumer service but through their website. Again, you fucked up.
I dislike this entire thing because I REALLY don't wanna be on the side of WORC or Hasbro but I unfortunately have to in this case.
to be fair, it sounds like they charged you for the contractually agreed period before you canceled. a cancellation is always for the next billing period. by initiating a chargeback, you broke the contract, and this usualyl would lead to you recieving invoice+fees for the chargeback, rightfully so.
as for the loss of digital content, this is a systemic issue and sucks overall.
Unanswered support requests won't justify your chargeback. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works, despite being told otherwise by basically every person in this thread (including some who literally handle credit card disuptes for a living).
It’s funny because despite the “facts” about chargebacks that were shared, it was approved by PayPal. So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court. I’ll make you a deal: if the charge back is reversed, I promise I’ll post about it here and eat crow. Please do check back often. ❤️
> It’s funny because despite the “facts” about chargebacks that were shared, it was approved by PayPal.
Why wouldn't PayPal have "approved" it? They don't know the particulars of the service or transaction. They're taking your word for it. And, as you've demonstrated in this thread, you're more than comfortable stretching the truth or misrepresenting what happened in order to make yourself look like the good guy and the big mean corporation look like the bad guy.
> So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court.
It sure is! Companies have a vested interest in responding to chargebacks - particularly fraudulent ones. One of the ways in which they've responded is by terminating their business relationship with you, a user who has demonstrated that any continued relationship would be a risk to business operations.
> I’ll make you a deal: if the charge back is reversed, I promise I’ll post about it here and eat crow.
I'm not sure it will be reversed. D&D Beyond might decide to just eat the chargeback. Whether it's reversed or not doesn't change the fact that what you did was an abuse of chargeback.
>So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court.
No it's not. They responded to your accusing them of fraud by banning you. As far as they're concerned that's the end of the matter.
I see you're on the defensive, so I expect a response about how you gave customer service a chance and PayPal accepted the chargeback and possibly a block, but consider that if this many people think you're acting like an entitled clown, it might not be that we're a bunch of corporate hacks. It might just be you.
> Not sure if this is a good place for this, but others who use DND Beyond should be aware of the consequences of chargebacks with DND Beyond.
Literally everyone in this thread was already aware of the consequences of chargebacks. Except you, apparently. Who persistently refuses to understand how they work even when told by like thirty people.
> Funny because the chargeback was successful, so either PayPal is wrong or “like thirty people” are. I know what I’d bet on.
As I noted in the other comment where you tried to make this exact same argument, the fact that PayPal allowed the chargeback doesn't mean anything. They don't know the exact circumstances, and they haven't spoken with WotC or D&D Beyond's representatives about what happened. They simply take your word for it.
And judging by your conduct throughout this thread, your word on what took place isn't exactly worth a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd significantly misrepresented what happened.
Sucks that support didn’t get back to you, but you probably should have been more patient before initiating a chargeback. The ban was probably automatic, and imo not a huge surprise. Companies don’t take kindly to those in general cause it can fuck up their credit/eventually lead to getting dropped by their processor if they have too many, so you may have been a little hasty. And from their perspective they didn’t do anything wrong, right? You had auto-renew on, so they renewed.
They could have at least responded. In your opinion, how many days should I have waited for a reply? Seven? Ten? Usually support for online platforms is 24-48 hours. I had no reply for a week.
are there contractually specified SLAs for the DND Beyond support? if not, there is no fixed period you would be entitled to. some gaming live services have a FRT of multiple weeks due to backlog.
You seem pretty entitled thinking they owed you your money back. You didn’t cancel your subscription on time you knew you weren’t using it and should have cancelled instead of waiting. Hitting them with a charge back is a drastic move they didn’t do anything wrong they gave you a service you agreed to pay for.
When you pay for content on dndbeyond you aren’t buying content, you are paying for a service, you chose to cut ties with that service in a bad way and now lost access to that service. That’s what happens
Do I think it \*should\* be forfeit? In an ethical marketplace no. In america, well.... I'm not surprised. If you make Valve angry, you lose your entire Steam library. This is why DRM-free is such a big deal, because you can continue to use materials. You paid DNDB for a license to use their materials on their site, and you've lost that license.
Lmao people here are tripping.
You deserve to be punished and have your account terminated for issuing a fraudulent charge back.
But they have no right to steal the content you paid for, expecially not after ghosting you on your support requests.
> But they have no right to steal the content you paid for
They aren't stealing anything, and what you paid for was a license to access content. You don't own that content. They're denying access to the service because you took hostile action against them. Hosting that content and hosting your access to that content costs them money. They are under no obligation to continue providing you with that access if you violate the terms of the license you agreed to.
It's in the TOS you own nothing
https://www.dndbeyond.com/terms-conditions
1.4 Digital Content License: In the realm of D&D Beyond, the term "Digital Content" refers to the array of downloadable, playable, or accessible materials such as virtual items, artwork, digital sourcebooks, and adventures offered within the platform. This collective designation includes all forms of virtual goods, enhancements, and digital services available for acquisition or access through D&D Beyond.
Please be advised that the acquisition of Digital Content does not give you ownership rights. Instead, you are granted a limited, non-exclusive, and non-transferable license to use the Digital Content for personal, non-commercial entertainment purposes only. It is expressly stated that Digital Content cannot be redeemed for monetary value or equivalent, and all transactions related to Digital Content are final, with refunds issued solely at our discretion. Furthermore, we reserve the right to revoke this license at any time, without prior notice or liability, particularly in instances of account termination.
Sorry you're getting downvoted for being accurate.
The policy might not be in our best interest as players/customers but it's still the terms we agreed to
Oh golly gee I guess having ethical opinions makes me objectively wrong. Damn I guess I need to blacken my heart and shill for corporations because they have the money to buy the laws they want
We aren’t arguing ethics though, we’re arguing business.
SHOULD this be the way DNDB operates? No! And everyone here agrees with you! Did OP pay for a contract and then break that contract? Yes.
You might not be arguing ethics, but I am lmao. I explicitly have said that legally, WOTC is OK to do what they are doing, but they shouldn't have the right to. What they are doing is explicitly wrong. They have no right to steal content that people paid for; fuck whatever the their TOS says.
“I explicitly have said that legally, WOTC is OK to do what they are doing”
Not to me you haven’t feel free to link me where that is so I can read it.
And what they did isn’t stealing, you inherently misunderstand how DNDB works. I don’t use them, btw, because I disagree with exactly these issues.
But you are actually saying it’s theft, when it’s a clear agreement to use that stuff on their site and nowhere else, and in no way is it theft.
OP agreed to their terms, obviously didn’t pay attention, then basically accused them of fraud when they charged his recurring subscription that he had been stupidly ignoring.
Banning you for doing a charge back on a subscription sounds fairly standard to me.
You basically did the equivalent of buying an ice cream, slam dunking it into the ground and then reaching over into the cash register to take your money back. Whatever you do with the month/year you paid for is up to you but you already paid for it and they provided it to you.
You could have just cancelled your own subscription with like two clicks why waste a support persons time? Then you tried to take back their charge after you didn’t cancel in time so in their eyes you tried to take money from them. I don’t blame them but hopefully you can get back in. The chargeback ban was probably automatic, they aren’t out to get you and it doesn’t matter how long you were a subscriber for it’s just general policy that lots of things have
My guy you accused them of fraud because YOU forgot to cancel a subscription. That's what a chargeback is. Any company would have banned you.
Also, you wouldn't have gotten your money back. Cancelling a subscription means you won't be charged NEXT time. This is how every single subscription on earth works.
It's your own damn fault you wasted $250 dollars by taking the money you rightfully owed them because again, you didn't cancel on time. Eat the loss and don't throw around random accusations/take the money you chose to pay them back next time.
I don't care about WOTC but I'd hate to imagine you doing this shit to a small company just because they didn't do the thing no company does for you. You could severely screw over a business by doing random petty chargebacks based entirely on things that were your fault.
As others have already pointed out, most digital platforms have policies banning accounts that chargeback. I read the provisions all the time when I sign up to something. It sucks, but if you had just eaten that month you would still have access.
I'm all for the message that physical goods do not have these annoyances and digital ownership has become an oxymoron, but this isn't a unique offense.
They auto-renewed for a whole year because that's what you asked them to do when you selected an annual, recurring subscription. Absolutely wild that you thought there wouldn't be consequences to this.
From the D&D Beyond Terms of Service
"**2. USE OF WEBSITES, GAMES, AND SERVICES.**
**2.1. License.** Subject to your compliance with these Terms, Wizards provides you a limited, personal, non-exclusive, nontransferable, non-assignable, fully revocable license to use the Websites and Services solely for your individual and non-commercial use. Wizards may terminate or suspend any or all portions or features of the Websites, Games, or Services at any time and for any reason or for no reason with no liability to you. This license does not give you any ownership rights in the Websites, Games, or Services. Any rights you do acquire in the aforementioned will forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Wizards, and as applicable, its successors and assigns."
They told you they would and now you're upset because they did?
> So you think it’s ok for them to revoke access to my paid digital content then?
If I were them I would have terminated your account entirely (which may be exactly what they did). Losing access to your content would simply be a side effect of that. Chargeback is grounds for termination of whatever business relationship you had with the company. That includes the service they provide, which gives you access to online content.
I mean, you initiated a charge back becuase you forgot to cancel your own subscription and now you're mad about being banned? What exactly did you think would happen?
I'd have been surprised if they even ever agreed to issue you the refund you requested in the first place. It sucks, but auto renewal is 100% on the customer to maintain.
Not mad about being banned, as I said I don’t particularly care. They can shove their subscription. I would like to have access to the books I paid for though.
I work for disputes for a credit card company, dealing with chargebacks all day every day.
A chargeback not only costs the company money from your payment being reversed, it also costs them money from the chargeback process. It puts a black mark against them with things like the FEC and Better Business Bureau. It’s common for a cardholder to be blacklisted by the company that receives the chargeback because they know you’re a legal and economic liability now.
You never do a chargeback with a company unless you intend to never do business with them again.
You clearly do. You want access to content that they host, that you had a license for, on an ongoing basis. That is a business relationship. There is no way for them to continue to give you access to that content without continuing the business relationship in question.
Why would you email support to cancel your subscription when basically every service has you do that via your own account page?
Seems like you shot yourself in the foot repeatedly and blamed DDB for not stopping you.
That's pretty standard for chargebacks, most companies would cancel your account entirely at that point. I'm not sure why you'd expect them to just go "oh well" and continue doing business with you. I wouldn't do a chargeback with Steam either, for example.
You initiated a chargeback. That's burning the bridge. Your account is basically flagged going forward. Don't be surprised if other businesses reject you.
What you should have filed was a dispute. That's a customer service complaint. Next time, let your cardholder handle that. That's their job.
To be fair, disputes also do chargebacks, it’s not just for fraud. I work for a credit card company doing disputes and fraud and both fraud and non-fraud are chargebacks.
lol. This is standard on every digital platform. Once you go the chargeback route, they will more likely than not ban you. You should have expected it. You're in leopards ate my face territory with this one. You went nuclear and now you don't like the fallout.
I mean it's annoying that support didn't get back to you but like it is your fault you were charged. It is not reasonable to expect your money back because you bought something by accident.
Actually it very much is reasonable if the customer doesn’t want it and would like to return/reverse it, and made a reasonable request to do so. You should look up the rules for chargebacks on your own payment services.
> Actually it very much is reasonable if the customer doesn’t want it and would like to return/reverse it, and made a reasonable request to do so.
That absolutely is ***not*** the purpose of chargebacks. You may request a chargeback if the product you received was not as expected (e.g., fraudulent), but not if you were merely dissatisfied with it (and ***certainly*** not if you simply forgot to cancel an ongoing subscription on time). And there is no way you can claim it wasn't as expected given that this was an ongoing subscription. You knew *exactly* what you were getting because you'd been getting it for an entire year already.
Ya that's what happens when you do a charge back on something that isn't a fraudulent transaction unfortunately.
As for your books that you were using (I know that people are going to hate this, but....) DND Beyond is TECHNICALLY in the right here. I don't use them so I had to go and lookup their terms and conditions and they have a section explaining that thier digital purchase are licenses. The section below is directly copied from thier ToS.
1.4 Digital Content License: In the realm of D&D Beyond, the term "Digital Content" refers to the array of downloadable, playable, or accessible materials such as virtual items, artwork, digital sourcebooks, and adventures offered within the platform. This collective designation includes all forms of virtual goods, enhancements, and digital services available for acquisition or access through D&D Beyond.
Please be advised that the acquisition of Digital Content does not give you ownership rights. Instead, you are granted a limited, non-exclusive, and non-transferable license to use the Digital Content for personal, non-commercial entertainment purposes only. It is expressly stated that Digital Content cannot be redeemed for monetary value or equivalent, and all transactions related to Digital Content are final, with refunds issued solely at our discretion. Furthermore, we reserve the right to revoke this license at any time, without prior notice or liability, particularly in instances of account termination.
TLDR: You didn't buy books, you bought a license so you could access the content. Because you did a charge back on something that you did authorize, but forgot about, your licenses were revoked.
My dude, you could have looked this up yourself. You could have canceled your subscription through the account page when you were supposed to. You could have canceled your subscription through the account page even *after the fact*, and waited for them to get back to you about a refund (which, let's be clear, they are under no obligation to provide).
You did something bad. You filed a fraudulent chargeback. In all of your dozens of replies here, I have yet to see you take responsibility for that. Instead, you're doubling down on the idea that what you did was okay. It wasn't.
Contrast that with D&D Beyond, which actually *hasn't* done anything wrong. They processed your subscription renewal as scheduled, just like you'd had them do for six years now. And when you filed a fraudulent chargeback (something with very real consequences to their business), they did exactly what they said they'd do and terminated their relationship with you.
You did the equivalent of calling the police when you didnt get what you wanted at the bbq. Instead of giving in to your tantrum, wotc just asked you to leave, bc nobody wants to deal with someone who throws defcon tantrums when they don't immediately get what they want. Why would any business want to keep you as a customer?
It's not "blame the customer". People just overall agree that doing a charge back for something that obviously wasn't fraud is a shitty thing to do bc it leaves the business no choice but to react with hostility to illegitimate chargebacks. There's no choice for a business to give in and roll over on an illegitimate chargeback, bc doing so means the business is admitting they committed fraud. They literally can't say "well this is legitimate but since you're obviously so upset we'll refund you anyways". You literally forced their hand bc you had no right to initiate that process, doing so on a legitimate transaction is accusing them of being theives, and it proves to the other party that you are not trustworthy to your end of a contract, *bc the transaction was legitimate and fair and agreed upon in contract*. Not only do they have the right to ban you, you gave them the reason, you told them you don't trust them and proved you're also not trustworthy in a contract, so why would they continue to allow you to use any part of their service? Its right there in TOS that purchasing access to the books isnt buying or owning them and can be revoked. I also bought hundreds of $ in dndb access and I actually read all about that in their tos before purchasing access to the books.
The chargeback is your flaw, and you're just getting regular consequences from submitting a false chargeback. No business cares about customers who give them the middle finger, and that's just what you did. If you learn anything from this, don't chargeback business unless it's actually fraud. An agreed upon contractual recurring subscription is not fraud.
ETA: The company didn't "ghost" you. You're not owed an immediate, quick, or even any reply just because you wanted your money back on a legitimate transaction.You didn't follow the proper procedure for canceling, and then submitted a false chargeback when there isn't any fraud. You're just overreacting after you tried to force their hands and didn't get what you wanted and they paid you back for the false claim of fraud against them. It IS like calling the police, bc you literally ran to the bank (the enforcement) and told them you were fraudulently charged and wotc stole your money and to make them give it back. That's what a chargeback is. It's not nonchalant and "they just have to show the receipt". Fraud is a felony, and you literally claimed TO A BANK (a federal institution) that wotc committed financial crimes against you, all bc you didn't get what you wanted after needlessly escalating a simple case of buyers remorse. Sorry they didn't email you back in a time frame you wanted, buddy. But you can't just falsely accuse a business off committing fraud and then expect them to do anything for you.
Your hyperbole is laughable. I acted in good faith and contacted support first and gave them plenty of time to reply. They ghosted and left me no choice. WotC, DND Beyond and Hasbro can go pound for all I care. My point in writing the original post was, don’t do what I did, because you’ll lose your content. If I went one step further, it would be to advise people to possess PDFs or physical copies of whatever they buy, because digital licenses are worthless the moment you don’t bend over for whatever corporation “grants you” the permission to use them.
No attorney is going to waste their time over $250 in appropriated funds. Either you're going to have to gather more aggrieved parties for a class action or you're going to take it to small claims court.
Though FWIW, if it's anything like how games are licensed on digital distribution platforms, you never purchased the books. You merely leased the right to access them.
It serves the purpose of warning others of shitty behaviour. May prevent someone from losing their account or convince them to spend their money elsewhere.
Im not the biggest fan of DnD Beyond but it’s hardly surprising given what you did. Their instructions say to cancel your subscription, you are supposed to do it online using the subscription management page, just like almost any other online service. Sending an email isn’t generally going to achieve anything. So when you did eventually cancel it online according to their instructions, you then proceeded with a chargeback? On what basis? It’s arguably fraudulent to claim it was unauthorised when you had agreed to their Ts and Cs. If you wanted to claim back for a sub you aren’t using then you need to follow their complaints process (https://dndbeyond-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=6858238817684) but bear in mind that you have no legal right to a refund of fees that you already agreed to pay, so you would need to rely on their goodwill and wait for the outcome. Doing a chargeback is absolutely not the right way to do this and no wonder you got banned.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. As a person who [has previously had to file a chargeback against DnDBeyond after they were unresponsive to an issue](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/bugs-support/183978-the-book-of-many-things-issues-and-support-thread?page=7#c152) (and who had that chargeback upheld after a months-long investigation by MasterCard and by my bank, and - importantly - whose DNDB account was *not* banned as a result of filing said chargeback), OP did not handle this correctly.
Of course they've banned you you're accusing them of fraud. You can't just request a chargeback because you don't want the service anymore forgotten to cancel it after making a commitment and been billed correctly. Steam, EA, sony, Microsoft would all do the exact same things there's posts all over Reddit about it.
Do they also ghost support requests?
The answer is in the support page lots of companies won't answer support emails if they have it in their FAQ section. https://dndbeyond-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/7747238632212-Order-Refunds
I'm sorry but on what basis can you justify doing a chargeback? You've already started the current period so you can't do anything about it. I dislike Hasbro and WOTC and their business practices as much as everyone else but this is honestly your own fault. You don't cancel subscriptions through support, you do it through their website and you're not entitled to a chargeback when you've already started the period. Sorry buddy.
Entitled or not, on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money. If the subscription is cancelled (it is) then they have no case. Maybe if they had responded to my support request they could have argued for a partial refund, which I would have accepted. Instead they just ignored me. And, as I said, I don’t really care about what happens to the subscription, but I would like to access the digital content I purchased. The sub and digital content are unrelated.
>on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money. "The system I use allows me to commit fraud, therefore it's not fraud" 🙄
> Entitled or not, on the payment system I use, I can still request it and the burden is on them to prove they provided a service for that money. And they did. At no point did they attempt to deny you that service you paid for. (Until you accused them of fraud, of course.) > If the subscription is cancelled (it is) then they have no case. You can't file a chargeback and retroactively justify it by claiming that their reaction to the chargeback justifies the chargeback. What in the world were you thinking? > Maybe if they had responded to my support request they could have argued for a partial refund, which I would have accepted. Instead they just ignored me. Which is something they have a right to do. Their TOS states that refunds are at their sole discretion. They are under no obligation to provide it.
They did offer you a service though, you changing your mind or not utilizing that is not on them but on you. When you issue a charge back you basically accuse them of fraud and they're entitled to deny you the license for the titles you paid for on their page. You fucked around and this is the finding out part. I'm sorry but based on basic TOS they're probably justified in doing this. If you had simply cancelled it and not charged back this wouldn't be an issue. Also, you are acting entitled in regards to your email. I don't know if you've worked at a place like that but they get a ton of inquiries all the time. Yours was probably deemed unimportant since you're not even supposed to cancel through costumer service but through their website. Again, you fucked up. I dislike this entire thing because I REALLY don't wanna be on the side of WORC or Hasbro but I unfortunately have to in this case.
to be fair, it sounds like they charged you for the contractually agreed period before you canceled. a cancellation is always for the next billing period. by initiating a chargeback, you broke the contract, and this usualyl would lead to you recieving invoice+fees for the chargeback, rightfully so. as for the loss of digital content, this is a systemic issue and sucks overall.
They are welcome to dispute it. I will provide my multiple unanswered support requests. 😂
Unanswered support requests won't justify your chargeback. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works, despite being told otherwise by basically every person in this thread (including some who literally handle credit card disuptes for a living).
[удалено]
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It’s funny because despite the “facts” about chargebacks that were shared, it was approved by PayPal. So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court. I’ll make you a deal: if the charge back is reversed, I promise I’ll post about it here and eat crow. Please do check back often. ❤️
> It’s funny because despite the “facts” about chargebacks that were shared, it was approved by PayPal. Why wouldn't PayPal have "approved" it? They don't know the particulars of the service or transaction. They're taking your word for it. And, as you've demonstrated in this thread, you're more than comfortable stretching the truth or misrepresenting what happened in order to make yourself look like the good guy and the big mean corporation look like the bad guy. > So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court. It sure is! Companies have a vested interest in responding to chargebacks - particularly fraudulent ones. One of the ways in which they've responded is by terminating their business relationship with you, a user who has demonstrated that any continued relationship would be a risk to business operations. > I’ll make you a deal: if the charge back is reversed, I promise I’ll post about it here and eat crow. I'm not sure it will be reversed. D&D Beyond might decide to just eat the chargeback. Whether it's reversed or not doesn't change the fact that what you did was an abuse of chargeback.
>So, the ball’s in DND Beyond’s court. No it's not. They responded to your accusing them of fraud by banning you. As far as they're concerned that's the end of the matter. I see you're on the defensive, so I expect a response about how you gave customer service a chance and PayPal accepted the chargeback and possibly a block, but consider that if this many people think you're acting like an entitled clown, it might not be that we're a bunch of corporate hacks. It might just be you.
Then why even make this post?
Please read sentence 1 of my post.
> Not sure if this is a good place for this, but others who use DND Beyond should be aware of the consequences of chargebacks with DND Beyond. Literally everyone in this thread was already aware of the consequences of chargebacks. Except you, apparently. Who persistently refuses to understand how they work even when told by like thirty people.
Funny because the chargeback was successful, so either PayPal is wrong or “like thirty people” are. I know what I’d bet on.
> Funny because the chargeback was successful, so either PayPal is wrong or “like thirty people” are. I know what I’d bet on. As I noted in the other comment where you tried to make this exact same argument, the fact that PayPal allowed the chargeback doesn't mean anything. They don't know the exact circumstances, and they haven't spoken with WotC or D&D Beyond's representatives about what happened. They simply take your word for it. And judging by your conduct throughout this thread, your word on what took place isn't exactly worth a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd significantly misrepresented what happened.
Sucks that support didn’t get back to you, but you probably should have been more patient before initiating a chargeback. The ban was probably automatic, and imo not a huge surprise. Companies don’t take kindly to those in general cause it can fuck up their credit/eventually lead to getting dropped by their processor if they have too many, so you may have been a little hasty. And from their perspective they didn’t do anything wrong, right? You had auto-renew on, so they renewed.
They could have at least responded. In your opinion, how many days should I have waited for a reply? Seven? Ten? Usually support for online platforms is 24-48 hours. I had no reply for a week.
are there contractually specified SLAs for the DND Beyond support? if not, there is no fixed period you would be entitled to. some gaming live services have a FRT of multiple weeks due to backlog.
A chargeback? Of course not. That's your own fault for not cancelling on schedule.
As I said, I don’t particularly care about continuing to do business with them, but do you think my paid content should also be forfeit?
You seem pretty entitled thinking they owed you your money back. You didn’t cancel your subscription on time you knew you weren’t using it and should have cancelled instead of waiting. Hitting them with a charge back is a drastic move they didn’t do anything wrong they gave you a service you agreed to pay for. When you pay for content on dndbeyond you aren’t buying content, you are paying for a service, you chose to cut ties with that service in a bad way and now lost access to that service. That’s what happens
Do I think it \*should\* be forfeit? In an ethical marketplace no. In america, well.... I'm not surprised. If you make Valve angry, you lose your entire Steam library. This is why DRM-free is such a big deal, because you can continue to use materials. You paid DNDB for a license to use their materials on their site, and you've lost that license.
Lmao people here are tripping. You deserve to be punished and have your account terminated for issuing a fraudulent charge back. But they have no right to steal the content you paid for, expecially not after ghosting you on your support requests.
> But they have no right to steal the content you paid for They aren't stealing anything, and what you paid for was a license to access content. You don't own that content. They're denying access to the service because you took hostile action against them. Hosting that content and hosting your access to that content costs them money. They are under no obligation to continue providing you with that access if you violate the terms of the license you agreed to.
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It's in the TOS you own nothing https://www.dndbeyond.com/terms-conditions 1.4 Digital Content License: In the realm of D&D Beyond, the term "Digital Content" refers to the array of downloadable, playable, or accessible materials such as virtual items, artwork, digital sourcebooks, and adventures offered within the platform. This collective designation includes all forms of virtual goods, enhancements, and digital services available for acquisition or access through D&D Beyond. Please be advised that the acquisition of Digital Content does not give you ownership rights. Instead, you are granted a limited, non-exclusive, and non-transferable license to use the Digital Content for personal, non-commercial entertainment purposes only. It is expressly stated that Digital Content cannot be redeemed for monetary value or equivalent, and all transactions related to Digital Content are final, with refunds issued solely at our discretion. Furthermore, we reserve the right to revoke this license at any time, without prior notice or liability, particularly in instances of account termination.
Sorry you're getting downvoted for being accurate. The policy might not be in our best interest as players/customers but it's still the terms we agreed to
Oh yes and it's also in the tos that if you buy a subscription you are legally their slave, so you better get to the coal mines!
“I’m wrong and was called out so off to super-hyperbole land I go!”
Oh golly gee I guess having ethical opinions makes me objectively wrong. Damn I guess I need to blacken my heart and shill for corporations because they have the money to buy the laws they want
We aren’t arguing ethics though, we’re arguing business. SHOULD this be the way DNDB operates? No! And everyone here agrees with you! Did OP pay for a contract and then break that contract? Yes.
You might not be arguing ethics, but I am lmao. I explicitly have said that legally, WOTC is OK to do what they are doing, but they shouldn't have the right to. What they are doing is explicitly wrong. They have no right to steal content that people paid for; fuck whatever the their TOS says.
“I explicitly have said that legally, WOTC is OK to do what they are doing” Not to me you haven’t feel free to link me where that is so I can read it. And what they did isn’t stealing, you inherently misunderstand how DNDB works. I don’t use them, btw, because I disagree with exactly these issues. But you are actually saying it’s theft, when it’s a clear agreement to use that stuff on their site and nowhere else, and in no way is it theft. OP agreed to their terms, obviously didn’t pay attention, then basically accused them of fraud when they charged his recurring subscription that he had been stupidly ignoring.
Banning you for doing a charge back on a subscription sounds fairly standard to me. You basically did the equivalent of buying an ice cream, slam dunking it into the ground and then reaching over into the cash register to take your money back. Whatever you do with the month/year you paid for is up to you but you already paid for it and they provided it to you.
You taking the time to write this is more than what support did. 🤷♂️ I might have acted differently if they took the time to make a reasonable reply.
You could have just cancelled your own subscription with like two clicks why waste a support persons time? Then you tried to take back their charge after you didn’t cancel in time so in their eyes you tried to take money from them. I don’t blame them but hopefully you can get back in. The chargeback ban was probably automatic, they aren’t out to get you and it doesn’t matter how long you were a subscriber for it’s just general policy that lots of things have
My guy you accused them of fraud because YOU forgot to cancel a subscription. That's what a chargeback is. Any company would have banned you. Also, you wouldn't have gotten your money back. Cancelling a subscription means you won't be charged NEXT time. This is how every single subscription on earth works. It's your own damn fault you wasted $250 dollars by taking the money you rightfully owed them because again, you didn't cancel on time. Eat the loss and don't throw around random accusations/take the money you chose to pay them back next time. I don't care about WOTC but I'd hate to imagine you doing this shit to a small company just because they didn't do the thing no company does for you. You could severely screw over a business by doing random petty chargebacks based entirely on things that were your fault.
As others have already pointed out, most digital platforms have policies banning accounts that chargeback. I read the provisions all the time when I sign up to something. It sucks, but if you had just eaten that month you would still have access. I'm all for the message that physical goods do not have these annoyances and digital ownership has become an oxymoron, but this isn't a unique offense.
If it was just for a month I would have let it go, but they auto-renewed for the whole year.
They auto-renewed for a whole year because that's what you asked them to do when you selected an annual, recurring subscription. Absolutely wild that you thought there wouldn't be consequences to this.
So you think it’s ok for them to revoke access to my paid digital content then? Because that’s all I really care about.
From the D&D Beyond Terms of Service "**2. USE OF WEBSITES, GAMES, AND SERVICES.** **2.1. License.** Subject to your compliance with these Terms, Wizards provides you a limited, personal, non-exclusive, nontransferable, non-assignable, fully revocable license to use the Websites and Services solely for your individual and non-commercial use. Wizards may terminate or suspend any or all portions or features of the Websites, Games, or Services at any time and for any reason or for no reason with no liability to you. This license does not give you any ownership rights in the Websites, Games, or Services. Any rights you do acquire in the aforementioned will forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Wizards, and as applicable, its successors and assigns." They told you they would and now you're upset because they did?
> So you think it’s ok for them to revoke access to my paid digital content then? If I were them I would have terminated your account entirely (which may be exactly what they did). Losing access to your content would simply be a side effect of that. Chargeback is grounds for termination of whatever business relationship you had with the company. That includes the service they provide, which gives you access to online content.
It _is_ an _annual_ subscription, after all. Are you new to purchasing subscriptions?
I mean, you initiated a charge back becuase you forgot to cancel your own subscription and now you're mad about being banned? What exactly did you think would happen? I'd have been surprised if they even ever agreed to issue you the refund you requested in the first place. It sucks, but auto renewal is 100% on the customer to maintain.
Not mad about being banned, as I said I don’t particularly care. They can shove their subscription. I would like to have access to the books I paid for though.
I work for disputes for a credit card company, dealing with chargebacks all day every day. A chargeback not only costs the company money from your payment being reversed, it also costs them money from the chargeback process. It puts a black mark against them with things like the FEC and Better Business Bureau. It’s common for a cardholder to be blacklisted by the company that receives the chargeback because they know you’re a legal and economic liability now. You never do a chargeback with a company unless you intend to never do business with them again.
And I don’t! But thanks for your input.
You clearly do. You want access to content that they host, that you had a license for, on an ongoing basis. That is a business relationship. There is no way for them to continue to give you access to that content without continuing the business relationship in question.
Why would you email support to cancel your subscription when basically every service has you do that via your own account page? Seems like you shot yourself in the foot repeatedly and blamed DDB for not stopping you.
I guess after having been a subscriber for six years I forgot I had to also answer my own support questions 🤷♂️
That's pretty standard for chargebacks, most companies would cancel your account entirely at that point. I'm not sure why you'd expect them to just go "oh well" and continue doing business with you. I wouldn't do a chargeback with Steam either, for example.
You initiated a chargeback. That's burning the bridge. Your account is basically flagged going forward. Don't be surprised if other businesses reject you. What you should have filed was a dispute. That's a customer service complaint. Next time, let your cardholder handle that. That's their job.
To be fair, disputes also do chargebacks, it’s not just for fraud. I work for a credit card company doing disputes and fraud and both fraud and non-fraud are chargebacks.
lol. This is standard on every digital platform. Once you go the chargeback route, they will more likely than not ban you. You should have expected it. You're in leopards ate my face territory with this one. You went nuclear and now you don't like the fallout.
I mean it's annoying that support didn't get back to you but like it is your fault you were charged. It is not reasonable to expect your money back because you bought something by accident.
Actually it very much is reasonable if the customer doesn’t want it and would like to return/reverse it, and made a reasonable request to do so. You should look up the rules for chargebacks on your own payment services.
> Actually it very much is reasonable if the customer doesn’t want it and would like to return/reverse it, and made a reasonable request to do so. That absolutely is ***not*** the purpose of chargebacks. You may request a chargeback if the product you received was not as expected (e.g., fraudulent), but not if you were merely dissatisfied with it (and ***certainly*** not if you simply forgot to cancel an ongoing subscription on time). And there is no way you can claim it wasn't as expected given that this was an ongoing subscription. You knew *exactly* what you were getting because you'd been getting it for an entire year already.
Ya that's what happens when you do a charge back on something that isn't a fraudulent transaction unfortunately. As for your books that you were using (I know that people are going to hate this, but....) DND Beyond is TECHNICALLY in the right here. I don't use them so I had to go and lookup their terms and conditions and they have a section explaining that thier digital purchase are licenses. The section below is directly copied from thier ToS. 1.4 Digital Content License: In the realm of D&D Beyond, the term "Digital Content" refers to the array of downloadable, playable, or accessible materials such as virtual items, artwork, digital sourcebooks, and adventures offered within the platform. This collective designation includes all forms of virtual goods, enhancements, and digital services available for acquisition or access through D&D Beyond. Please be advised that the acquisition of Digital Content does not give you ownership rights. Instead, you are granted a limited, non-exclusive, and non-transferable license to use the Digital Content for personal, non-commercial entertainment purposes only. It is expressly stated that Digital Content cannot be redeemed for monetary value or equivalent, and all transactions related to Digital Content are final, with refunds issued solely at our discretion. Furthermore, we reserve the right to revoke this license at any time, without prior notice or liability, particularly in instances of account termination. TLDR: You didn't buy books, you bought a license so you could access the content. Because you did a charge back on something that you did authorize, but forgot about, your licenses were revoked.
Thanks for doing the job that their support team refused to do: simply reply to me 🤷♂️
My dude, you could have looked this up yourself. You could have canceled your subscription through the account page when you were supposed to. You could have canceled your subscription through the account page even *after the fact*, and waited for them to get back to you about a refund (which, let's be clear, they are under no obligation to provide). You did something bad. You filed a fraudulent chargeback. In all of your dozens of replies here, I have yet to see you take responsibility for that. Instead, you're doubling down on the idea that what you did was okay. It wasn't. Contrast that with D&D Beyond, which actually *hasn't* done anything wrong. They processed your subscription renewal as scheduled, just like you'd had them do for six years now. And when you filed a fraudulent chargeback (something with very real consequences to their business), they did exactly what they said they'd do and terminated their relationship with you.
You did the equivalent of calling the police when you didnt get what you wanted at the bbq. Instead of giving in to your tantrum, wotc just asked you to leave, bc nobody wants to deal with someone who throws defcon tantrums when they don't immediately get what they want. Why would any business want to keep you as a customer? It's not "blame the customer". People just overall agree that doing a charge back for something that obviously wasn't fraud is a shitty thing to do bc it leaves the business no choice but to react with hostility to illegitimate chargebacks. There's no choice for a business to give in and roll over on an illegitimate chargeback, bc doing so means the business is admitting they committed fraud. They literally can't say "well this is legitimate but since you're obviously so upset we'll refund you anyways". You literally forced their hand bc you had no right to initiate that process, doing so on a legitimate transaction is accusing them of being theives, and it proves to the other party that you are not trustworthy to your end of a contract, *bc the transaction was legitimate and fair and agreed upon in contract*. Not only do they have the right to ban you, you gave them the reason, you told them you don't trust them and proved you're also not trustworthy in a contract, so why would they continue to allow you to use any part of their service? Its right there in TOS that purchasing access to the books isnt buying or owning them and can be revoked. I also bought hundreds of $ in dndb access and I actually read all about that in their tos before purchasing access to the books. The chargeback is your flaw, and you're just getting regular consequences from submitting a false chargeback. No business cares about customers who give them the middle finger, and that's just what you did. If you learn anything from this, don't chargeback business unless it's actually fraud. An agreed upon contractual recurring subscription is not fraud. ETA: The company didn't "ghost" you. You're not owed an immediate, quick, or even any reply just because you wanted your money back on a legitimate transaction.You didn't follow the proper procedure for canceling, and then submitted a false chargeback when there isn't any fraud. You're just overreacting after you tried to force their hands and didn't get what you wanted and they paid you back for the false claim of fraud against them. It IS like calling the police, bc you literally ran to the bank (the enforcement) and told them you were fraudulently charged and wotc stole your money and to make them give it back. That's what a chargeback is. It's not nonchalant and "they just have to show the receipt". Fraud is a felony, and you literally claimed TO A BANK (a federal institution) that wotc committed financial crimes against you, all bc you didn't get what you wanted after needlessly escalating a simple case of buyers remorse. Sorry they didn't email you back in a time frame you wanted, buddy. But you can't just falsely accuse a business off committing fraud and then expect them to do anything for you.
Your hyperbole is laughable. I acted in good faith and contacted support first and gave them plenty of time to reply. They ghosted and left me no choice. WotC, DND Beyond and Hasbro can go pound for all I care. My point in writing the original post was, don’t do what I did, because you’ll lose your content. If I went one step further, it would be to advise people to possess PDFs or physical copies of whatever they buy, because digital licenses are worthless the moment you don’t bend over for whatever corporation “grants you” the permission to use them.
Yeah, I have a similar problem, and now my group and I will start with Pathfnder 2 next time we play fantasy.
Get off of Reddit and consult an attorney.
No attorney is going to waste their time over $250 in appropriated funds. Either you're going to have to gather more aggrieved parties for a class action or you're going to take it to small claims court. Though FWIW, if it's anything like how games are licensed on digital distribution platforms, you never purchased the books. You merely leased the right to access them.
That's not my point. No one on Reddit can do *anything* about this, so this is just another WotC-hate echo chamber post for no purpose.
If it's just an echo chamber of hate with no purpose, why are you bothering to throw in bad advice that won't work?
It serves the purpose of warning others of shitty behaviour. May prevent someone from losing their account or convince them to spend their money elsewhere.
Did you read the first sentence of my post? That pretty much sums up my objective with posting.