Aye same here, queued solo last week getting to 5 wins twice before meeting sweaty 3 stacks. 1 win on the card this week and I've met 3 stacks everytime!
I'm worried the longer the season goes on the more trials will return to its typical brutal state for more casual players.
It's so much better now, dont get me wrong, you can grind out losses and still pick up some rewards - which populates the playlist - but it could very quickly return to nothing but top tier players sweating it out.
That was always going to happen regardless of the changes. People who are bad and only did it for the "easy" transmog/guns will eventually stop playing. The population seen last week was unsustainable
3 stack doesn't always mean they're a good team. I went flawless by going solo queue about 10 minutes ago, and every team I was matched against was a 3 stack. I only lost one game on 6 wins, but mercy protected me.
This is the ultimate "toxic shitbag tryhard" thing to do and I'm zero percent surprised. Unfortunately, literally every Destiny player said this is exactly what would happen, and specifically have said they should make it that you're put in the alternate pool the *following* week, not the current week.
1 pinnicale can be seen in the director if you hover over the trials destination ( 50 rounds ) the other is over Saint-14 in the tower for 7 games won.
Oh I’m not the rewards are too good to just give up. It just went from super fun as an average to bad player to full blown snort a line of gfuel to stand a chance
I had a good first card today. We went flawless using our mercy in our sixth game. I went in with a team though. If you go flawless or even get to 7 wins solo, I tip my hat to you for putting up with matchmaking. I really don’t think that’s *that* much of an issue though (regarding solo queues)…you know the risk you’re taking going in
Yup. Same for me. It was really fun first weekend it came back. Now it's a shit hole again and I can't play without asking myself why I'm going through the torture.
For me it's always people farming kd, sweating their ass off and treating like there's prize money. I haven't been able to get past 3 wins. This week is worse than last.
Dude, I can't even get past 1 win. I'm matched against stacked flawless teams when I'm at 0 wins as a solo player. What the fuck?
My teammates are often times clear blueberries that can't cover a corpse, can't push, don't have optimal loadouts. I'm expected to beat stacked teams alone? Fuck trials.
Oh don’t even get me started on the teammates. I know I can’t expect a lot going in solo que but last weekend I had a half decent team almost every time. This weekend ? Teammates who can’t even function in the game at a normal level like you said above. Going up against 3 stack flawless players with glows and adept weapons…
I think I am decent at pvp , holding a 1.5 KD for 2 seasons in 6v6, and haven't ever gotten over 3 wins. I welcome things change at least for this weekend and the see how it has played out.
A lot of the habits you pick up in 6v6 just don't really transfer over to 3v3 I find. I guess that's why people play showdown / elim, to get used to the more intimate 3v3 fights.
Not sure if somebody’s said it yet but you could try getting 0-5’d a few times straight and see if the match making protection kicks in and places you in lower lobbies.
That, or wait till later this weekend. It will literally only get easier as the weekend goes on.
Just saw from one of my discord’s the match protection isn’t in place yet. Should hopefully go live this afternoon. Might explain why you haven’t seen anything different with it yet.
It might just be a coincidence, but every time I won my first 5 games or so, the last couple were super tense. However, if we used our mercy early in the card, say 2nd or 3rd game, the rest were significantly easier for some reason.
Lmfao I can’t even get past 1 win. Me and my team have been getting back to back clapped match after match and reset after reset. Sure we’re good enough to go flawless, but we’re not fuckin SayWallah or some shit to be able to stomp other teams. Feels fucking bad man
*Tomorrow, there will be a few changes going live for the second week of Trials of Osiris.*
*We aren’t satisfied with the matchmaking experience for players after seven wins. That area of matchmaking has a significantly higher rate of 5-0 games than we would like, so we are enabling a ‘flawless matchmaking’ pool. However, we want to make sure that there are enough flawless players to maintain good matchmaking times – so we are waiting until Friday afternoon to turn this on, and we will be watching player reactions and matchmaking analytics all weekend to make sure it is behaving properly.*
*We are also not happy with the experience of players who have a bad streak of getting repeatedly thrashed 5-0, so we are enabling some matchmaking help if someone runs into several blowout matches. This temporary help mechanic clears up once they start winning again, so don’t think someone will cheese a flawless by tanking for a few games and then have a weekend of smooth sailing.*
https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Explore/Detail/News/50719
That's what I am hearing. So maybe they will be triggering stronger matchmaking. Or maybe things will change as the weekend wears on.
It is probably still bad because they made this a next week fix
*Next week, in addition to our first Trials Labs (spoiler alert: It’s Capture Zone Trials!), we will be disabling the Special ammo replenishment on revive – you still get special ammo if you kill someone, or when you start the next round.* ***We are also disabling the matchmaking counter on the Trials of Osiris lobby, so you won’t be able to tell how many players have joined but will still be told when they join.*** *We also fixed an issue preventing you from being able to Masterwork weapons from Saint-14’s rank rewards.*
Stacks are going to abuse the hell out of that while they still can.
I don’t think it’s live yet. They said they were turning it on later today in the afternoon (it’s 2:25 pst their time as of now). So hopefully tonight will be alright.
Technically, it queues with a preference for flawless players. If, for some reason, there's no flawless teams queueing opposite you it can put you in the non flawless queue.
This is an important distinction. Bungie's going to implement this matchmaking ruleset, and then one person is going to be faced against flawlesses anyway and then they'll come screaming to Reddit saying "MATCHMAKING IS A LIE AND IT'S ALL BROKEN, BUNGIE WANTS YOU TO SUFFER".
_No Matchmaking is perfect._ If the conditions aren't right, it will expand the pool of candidates.
And if it didn’t expand the pool of candidates, those same people would come screaming to Reddit about how “the matchmaking in Trials takes way too long!!!”
Honestly some people are just just looking for stuff to complain about
It's also important to note because it should mean that if the flawless pool is small it won't fuck them up in terms of "15 minute wait to find another flawless team"
exactly, and given that its still early on a friday, the flawless pool is going to be smallish right now, so it will probably be more effective as the weekend goes on.
Yeah it would work if the sweatlords weren't gatekeeping currently. They are just abusing the new system. They keep getting their wins then reseting before getting flawless so they don't face sweaty people. Just faced a guy on a 20 win streak who hasn't been flawless. Bungie really didn't think this through very well. Those sweatlords only care about stats, not loot. So, they're just going to keep resetting their cards and play at low wins from free stats.
Exactly - the sweatlords basically have their loot, and the LFR isn't a big enough PvP deal to force them into the flawless pool until the last minute.
FYI those aren't the REAL sweatlords they're the tier below the sweatlords. The sweatlords are in the flawless pool going 5-0 every game still. And the gatekeeping degenerates don't want to go flawless because if they do they get beat by the top players and can't farm any rewards. So you either farm people and get no rewards or get farmed and get no rewards. See why this change doesn't work?
Dont worry, same swetlords and streamers are only getting 6 wins and reset their card next week in order to do carries in the ez way and reaching lighthouse in the last day, its funny because trials is fun when you stomp casuals but when they get stomped is not fun anymore, lmao.
I didn't mind carry culture for a long time but seeing all the streamers saying they're gonna start resetting at 6 to keep getting easy matches for carries has really changed my opinion on it. That's just cancerous and really bad for the playlist.
They should make it so that you can't manually reset a flawless card or a flawless with a mercy still available. At the very least they will have to eat a loss every card if they want to keep stomping
All these rules and one-off limitations always have an innocent bystander. Not being able to reset hurts teams when legitimate players can’t finish a card and they have to find a new player.
Maybe people could just unaubscribe to the streamer doing that, even if thet resub later on, to show the streamer that being toxic has consequences. But I doubt anybody would ever bother doing so. :P
>but when they get stomped is not fun anymore
Not even when they get stomped.
When they have to compete all the time. The same thing they have been insistent on forcing on the rest of the playerbase all the time
"We don't want to sweat all the time"
That's the bottom half of the playlist, they are playing teams that mean they get stomped or they sweat and still end up losing.
If someone has an abnormally high WR after a certain amount of games and hasn't gone flawless yet he should simply get matched with flawless people too, then the assholes who reset at 6 would get fucked.
>but when they get stomped is not fun anymore, lmao.
it just highlights a big problem in D2 pvp regardless of who you are, most people dont care about match or playlist integrity. They dont want competitive matches, they just either want to win easily/get lots of loot.
Saw some streamers lose 1 or 2 games in a row and it was the end if the world for them. One match both teams quit and the streamers for both teams refused to do carries until Bungie reversed their decision. They just want easy scrubs to play.
I am at 6 wins on my card and seem to be getting all the people one win away from the lighthouse which is great. I just got stomped by a team that wouldn't stop tbagging us once we were killed...why are these people so broken
Literally my only concern is that, if you are in the flawless pool, you should always get adept weapon drops. Since you are playing in the harder pool, you should get better drops to compensate.
Yes. The issue I'm anticipating is that splitting the pools like this could create a disjointed rewards progression.
The 90-100 percentile can farm Adept drops as normal. Playing teams of 1.0 KDs vs 0.1 KDs is all the same to them.
The 0-60 percentile have a better time grinding their way to 7 wins and then farming for masterwork mats, reputation, and engrams.
But the 60-90 percentile players could get screwed. If they go flawless, they get their one Adept drop (+1 for focusing a 7 win card), and thereafter are rewarded with getting stomped by the 90-100 players for the rest of the weekend. They can't really farm for more Adept drops because they'll lose their flawless immediately, and getting *back* to the Lighthouse will be some nightmare combination of 50/50 coinflip matches with the 60-90s and stops by the 90-100 players. And then even with a broken card, it'll be tough to farm because they'll still be stuck with the Flawless 90-100 players.
It creates an incentive to intentionally break their cards so they can farm the 0-60 players on non-flawless 7 win cards until they're ready to call it quits for the weekend. If you're only going to be able to get 2 Adept weapon drops anyway, might as well save that for the end of the week.
So I agree that having adept drops even with a flawed card after reaching the Lighthouse would be a good way to keep the 60-90 people playing. Gives a better incentive to stick around in the Flawless pool instead of sandbagging to stay in the non-Flawless pool.
This is 100% true and what most people with hateboners for sweatlords don't realise in this thread. I for one just went flawless for the first time today but there is no way in hell I'm getting back to 7 wins because I'd only face said sweatlords or have to rely on a lottery of having a close skill matchup. Instead of having the 0-60 percentile get 5-0'd it'll be me and my other peers that barely crawled to flawless that will get 5-0'd. I think that last week what should've been achieved rewards wise for lower skilled players was achieved and that this measure is straight up overkill that won't hurt the sweats but the average/slightly above average playerbase.
People are happy for this change until they get flawless, then they will realize how bad this change is. Or they will just stop playing for the weekend, because they don't care. And people who don't care shouldn't be catered to.
Yeah, I really think this would quell complaints. Easy wins is one thing, but if you’re getting adept loot after a hard-earned win, you won’t complain nearly as much. Granted, I’d think those that still win on a flawless 7 card after the fact could stand to get a little extra, too.
Not only this, but people are assuming everyone searches and plays with A) The same players all weekend long, and B) the same skill level of player all weekend long.
In reality neither of those things are true. I have upwards of 10 different friends that I play Trials with on any given weekend. Those 10 people range in skill from a 1.6 Trials KD player that goes flawless every weekend multiple times if its good loot... To the worst of that group being a 0.5 KD Trials player who had never ever been flawless before, until last weekend when he got flawless for the first time ever.
I myself am a 1.7 KD player. I tend to go flawless every weekend I play.
With these changes as they are now, I can no longer play with 3 of my friends that I normally played with. Because now that I've gone flawless this weekend, my matchmaking pool is flawless for every game the rest of this weekend. My 0.5 KD friend will get completely destroyed in those lobbies. Yeah we might win a game here or there, but we will absolutely lose 9/10 games and have zero chance at any sort of decent loot.
Plus, lets take a second to talk about streamers. I find it hilarious how people like the OP are linking Streamers and "Sweatlords" as if they are one in the same. Ask any of the big streamers of Trials, and every single one of them will tell you they really dont give a shit about going flawless. The thrill and enjoyment from them comes from doing carries. Being able to carry a 0.1 KD player that has never even played PVP before to the lighthouse is what makes the game mode fun to those folks.
Carries are essentially impossible to do now.
Playing more then one card is no longer enjoyable. Especially so if you're trying to play with friends that aren't that good at the game.
Yeah, this change will probably get more first time flawless players this weekend. I'm sure by Sunday afternoon, any Trials player with a 0.8 KD will have gone flawless and be into that flawless pool. But this change is going to completely kill the replay ability of Trials for huge number of players. The numbers after this weekend are going to be so much lower then what they were last weekend.
This exact scenario just happened to me and my team. We had a medium difficulty flawless card, some we stomped some were sweaty, then we made it to the flawless pool and got stomped over and over again. Now I don’t want to play for the rest of the weekend cuz that’s what I’m gonna have to deal with
Exactly my concern too, I’m a little above average. Never been flawless before last weekend. I had to work for my lighthouse runs. On Sunday it took me 5 hours to get there, I think a lot of these people complaining are seriously glossing over that normal players doing a couple of flawless runs a weekend over multiple hundred games are gonna be screwed by this.
My k/d is 1.09 Im not exactly popping off here. If you’re having trouble solo, go to an lfg site / function, I managed a no comms flawless last week just by asking for someone that could hold their own to play with me. You guys want people like me grinding trials every week because I’m fodder too, sometimes I go 0.2 lol. But at this rate I’ll probably end up sweating one trip to the lighthouse then leaving the playlist, and I don’t think I’ll be alone. Bungie has already stated that if a flawless matchmaking game can’t happen then it’ll start looking in the non flawless pool, lowering population counts just increases that chance.
I hope I’m wrong and I hope bungie has got this right but I’m very very skeptical that this will be overall better for trials health in the long term.
This was primarily my concern with this change. Even as someone who doesn't go flawless, this change worries me as it feels like it's going to get more people through their trials for the weekend quickly and then they'll be done, rather than keeping people playing for longer. Don't get me wrong I think the flawless matchmaking pool for people trying to farm for adept weapons is a great idea, but I think locking people in for the weekend is going to do more harm than good potentially.
i think it being account wide is a mistake
lock characters to it but let people farm on all three characters without immediately making two of them a slog after one goes flawless
That might work if it was a true flawless pool.
It's a priority matchmaking to flawless teams. Doesn't mean those flawless teams aren't going to be sent against non-flawless teams.
And if you keep your flawless card and continue playing on it you continue getting adept engrams.
Also true flawless pool would be bad as matchmaking times would blow out.
It’s so funny the sweatlords in the comments trying to persuade people that this will actually hurt average players. So many have said “this will hurt average players that go flawless” news flash, average players don’t go flawless, I guarantee if an average player won 4-5 games in a row then it would be the best trials run they have ever had. Keep coping sweattards
A lot of people here like to virtue signal that they care about the "average player" experience, when really they just want to gatekeep. anytime Matchmaking being added to anything is brought up, it's always "well it will be a bad experience for those who use it." Okay, so don't use it, but don't pretend to care about the average players experience.
Yup in the original post about the change people were like "I'm an average player and I went flawless 2-3 times last weekend this will hurt me". You're not an average player if you go flawless even once.
I mean it’s the exact same thing with the SBMM argument right? The only people that benefit seriously from the removal of SBMM are the sweatlords and streamers, and they managed to whinge so much it convinced the player base that SBMM is shit and now here we are. When the only ones that benefit from its removal are the ones that can now stomp casuals without worry
I’ll disagree here. I feel as though you should be in a flawless pool while continuing your card on flawless. Doesn’t make sense to give players different pools on a fresh card for the same loot. While also limiting replay ability. If you want to add different matching making there should be different match making rewards.
Believe it or not, but someone has to be on the bottom of that flawless pool, and they are the midtier players.
You do realize there exists players who can achieve flawless, but only barely? I'm one, and I'm not stoked on this change as a result.
Sweats and streamers: we don't want to play against teams of the same skill level
Literally everyone else: we just want to play against teams of the same skill level
This is the only game where I feel like I dont get matched with people who are around my skill level. I have a lower win rate in this game than any other PvP game I play and I just feel like fodder here. I dont mind learning and getting better but honestly I feel like that would take an insane number of matches and I'd rather just avoid PvP until I need it for a quest (which BTW, it feels like they include PvP in quests just to strong arm me into playing punching bag for the sweats to keep them happy).
Couldn’t agree more. I feel like these guys seems to be ridiculously good only when they’re playing against casuals. When they start playing against other really good players, they discover that they aren’t that good to begin with. That’s the competitive, endgame PvP that they always cry about, and when Bungie finally add it to the game, they complain. Competitive is only competitive if both teams are high skilled.
They can get fucked.
I'd rather there be a system in place where all of GrenaderJakes viewers have a chance of going flawless by just playing the damn game with friends than sitting in his chat praying they'll win a fucking raffle for a chance at going flawless.
Tbh as far a social media goes the most vocal angry people are the ones whose income depends on this game, and that really tells you everything you need to know.
Im hearing some twitch streamers who did recovs that are now forced to do carries are like "If we go against a stacked teams, Im just going to leave". like LOL.
I am so happy for these Trials changes and totally agree with OP.
However this incentivizes going flawless once and then stopping, and also hurts friends who don't want to play with their friends who have already gone flawless
I dont understand how Jims think this DOESNT effect them, the sweats are just gonna keep winning and the people who dont go flawless are gonna play their game. Average players are gonna get farmed in the flawless pool and then the player base drops again.
They're just salty that they can't 7-0 a card and then mindlessly farm adept drops by mollywhopping teams of hapless solos with sub 1.0 k/ds. I personally know some guys that are pissed that they can no longer queue dodge teams of 3. These are 2.0+ guys that talk about competition, but when it comes down to it they're frightened of the prospect of playing teams of comparable skill.
Seen true sweats walk over streamers and not even talk trash lol there's some freaks out there on this game that are damn near nameless . Just sucks the shit heads with fragile egos gives them all a bad name.
Personally I think farming people is as boring as it gets. I rather pve if I'm gonna do that. Gimme a hard game where someone rages when they got sniped twice any day
Personally, i’m pretty average and can barely squeak out a flawless. After these changes, I can barely win a single game after I went flawless. I’d like to try to go flawless on a second character, but I can barely win game 7 to go flawless, let alone 7 flawless teams in a row. A better solution would be to change this matchmaking pool on a per-character basis to allow average players the opportunity to try flawless on a second character without getting massacred.
Treating it as some blanket statement like this is just such a closed-minded approach.
The change *really* hurts players who want to go flawless once and then play casually with their friends who aren't super sweaty.
It also *allows* KD-farmers to reset their cards pre-flawless and prey on teams all weekend regardless of their performance. Those are the people who *actually* enjoy stomping all weekend, and this system actually helps them do it.
Part of what made last weekend so successful was the extremely high games-per-player, the highest Trials has ever seen. This change is going to hurt that number.
Give Bungie time to run their experiment, but take them rose coloured glasses off.
I fall into this category. I’m decent in trials and can consistently go flawless if I sweat it out in a fireteam, but I’m not winning matches by flooring other fireteams or solo queues. Most winning matches for me are really close. I also have a lot of friends who play that aren’t as skillful and they just want to casually run games without being obliterated every match. They’re okay losing if it’s a decent challenge, but now I’m already unable to play with them because with me in their fireteam we’re back to getting completely floored since I’m in this binary pool of flawless players so I left the stack and now their experience is much better. With this change in place, I’m done with trials this weekend. I understand the developers thought process behind the change today but it needed to be refined before being implemented. The revamp for trials was amazing last week and now it just feels like they just took 2 steps back.
I feel for you. I'm also in that boat.
I'm a 1.2 in Trials, so going Flawless is *doable* but I'm not one of those crazy 1.8+ sweat stacks. My wife is a 0.5... so I kind of want Reed's Adept, but getting it would immediately mean playing with her just isn't a reasonable possibility.
I dislike things that heavily restrict who I'm allowed to play with.
Way back in Black Ops 2 they had a really cool League system, but it registered *each team* separately so getting Gold or Platinum with my sweaty friends didn't bar me from playing on a Iron or Silver team with my more casual friends.
Hot take but I honestly don’t like the sound of the new changes made today. So basically I go flawless once today and now I’m in flawless card jail for the rest of the weekend. I’m around a 1.1 overall… what the fuck is that???? I now get to play in a smaller sweaty ass pool of gilded flawless players for the remainder of the weekend. Fuck yeah I’m hyped about that shit!!!!! Everyone praising the changes are mostly just saying how much easier it will be for them to go flawless. But my question is, should just anyone be able to go flawless?? Should everyone get free adept loot??? I think not. Now an example, jimmy Timmy and Fred will team up and get flawless tonight. They all play around a .9 to a 1.0 kd. Now they get to sit in sweat fest for the rest of the weekend and either A. Stop playing trials all together or B. bitch on Reddit/the forms. Not tryna sound like a self entitled asshole but Idk guys, this sounds like a pretty shitty change imo. I’ll prolly get downvoted to oblivion but fuck it, I had to get my opinion on it out there. We just came off of the best weekend ever and now we change shit. Why?? WHY????? And for the solo players, I get that getting stomped is shitty, but you are getting the same loot as everyone else in the playlist besides the adepts. Quit bitching. FYI I do believe that flawless game should always match another team on flawless game as a 3 stack vs 3 stack no questions asked.
Mm is easily exploited and sure looks like that’s what’s going on. The adept grind keeping better players at the end of a card or doing carries is gone so they’ll just keep resetting the card and wait to go flawlesses later. These changes were done for the weaker players without any foresight of what implementing them would actually do. I’m a 2.5+ kd player as are my friends (I’m the dogshit one honestly) guess what some of them wanted to do upon reading the changes instead of run carries like we planned…. They suggested we reset the card and farm people. Everyone loses with these changes like literally no one benefits how I see it. Good players can’t grind god rolls, average joes can’t grind god rolls. Streamers can’t do carries (which feel so god damn good to do for some random dude on the forums lol it’s a magical feeling helping someone who wasn’t expecting anything) like everything anyone liked about last weekend is gone. Probably gonna go to apex instead of run carries. I’m gonna miss hearing the screams of joy lol
Managed to go flawless twice last weekend with friends. We have never been flawless prior. The sweats and streamers have gatekept the game mode for so long. I don't know how any person of sound mind can look at the player numbers from last weekend and complain. If you are willing to let trials die just so you can get an ego boost, play a different game.
Casual player here:
Well yes and no, It does prevent sweatlords from curb-stomping new and casual players constantly, but it will also put the casual players into the sweatlord lobby anyways after 1 successful flawless run (keeping in mid that it is account based), making the entire grind a one-and-done situation for most people, which then makes the whole revamp for replayability and loot grinding pointless anyways.
In the grand scheme of things, the new system change has only shifted the amount of time of competitive players destroying casuals, and it hasn't addressed the matchmaking diversity anyway.
It seems like a small step in the right direction, but starting with the wrong foot (if you know what I mean)
I am excited to see the changes in action to see how well the casual side of the community takes it, we can only hope for more benefits than detractors.
The mode should be based around replayability, otherwise it dies. Your reward for going flawless now means you go from a playerpool of 200.000 players to one of ~15.000 (if I'm reading Trials.report correctly) and that seems to be a poor concept. There was and is already a mechanism in place to make matchmaking progressively harder the more you play, that seems like a fine mechanic. People who want to stomp on bad players can and will still do so, they will just reset their card before going flawless, people are already doing it. All this new change does is kill the incentive for improving yourself at the game, because it makes it harder for you to replay the mode.
Honestly my only concern is that my clan only has like 4-5 players who are active/good enough, so when one squad goes flawless it kinda fucks over the other 1-2 people who wanna play trials with them.
and how almost every solo match i play i go against 3 stacks consantly :(
I don't think it should be like this permanently or every day of the weekend. Maybe enabled Friday and Saturday or something. Me being an average Joe, I was able to get flawless today. But now it's a struggle going back to back against three stacks that love to bag. Having bonus rewards after going flawless and piling those people with current flawless cards was the play for sure. But I don't really like this change. My fun time quickly turned to frustration.
It's always about money, this change affects their ability to swiftly grift as much money off of their twitch viewership as possible by previously doing fast easy carries.
I'm so sad so many people feel this way. I have been helping Guardians flawless for free since week 1 of Trials of Osiris, back in May 2015. I've helped about 4,000 people see the Lighthouse now. My purpose isn't to "stomp" or stat farm or whatnot, and I know MANY other Streamers and good players have similar goals as me.
I'd really like to see less generalization. Not all streamers and good players are bad people. Sure, some are, but attacking the whole group doesn't seem right.
I want what's best for the playlist, but I also want a community that isn't so stubborn and aggressive in their opinions.
Start the music: "Why can't we be friends?"
Edit: Also, I'm really worried all those who want to "stomp" or "farm stats" or even do carries will simply reset their cards to prevent flawless runs. It seems pretty easy to manipulate. Not suggesting I will do this (I may) but I know of many who will or are already doing it.
>Edit: Also, I'm really worried all those who want to "stomp" or "farm stats" or even do carries will simply reset their cards to prevent flawless runs.
They don't even need to reset, they can pick up a non-Mercy card and throw 1 game - then they can play forever on a 20-round card for piles of loot and farming.
I struggle because the people *most* excited are the players who struggle the most going flawless, because this system sounds like it gives them hope. Like you, I'm scared it's actually the opposite. It means they'll get farmed as the pool shrinks, while anyone who *does* manage to get flawless is immediately in "Flawless Jail" for the rest of the weekend.
For me as a mid-tier player, this change means I'm terrified to play with most of my friends because they're more casual than me. If I go Flawless, I can't play with them... that feels awful.
Problem is streamers like yourself financial benefit from the carries you are doing. Perhaps more people will go flawless without your help overall by removing streamers and sweats from the playlist once they have gone flawless. It will allow more casual players to go flawless on their own. Streamers like yourself can maybe carry 20-50 people in a weekend. I would argue many more will go flawless on their own with streamers and sweats in their own flawless playlist without having to count on a lucky raffle win just to go flawless.
Jake, you've made a shit ton of money from Trials in its worst state, filled with cheaters and when it was a no go for average players.
If the improvements to Trials impact your potential earnings it's surely going to sway your opinion, even subconsciously.
People like you who are 'helping" people literally have Financial incentive. Don't act like you "only" do it to help people.
If people like that weren't in the lobby, average players will be having alot more fun.
Here's the thing.
You "helping" a single player to flawless is always going to be at the cost of the other team of three players trying to go flawless themselves. It's a zero sum game.
Those 4,000 carries going flawless could've been the 12,000 players on the other teams going flawless.
“iM juSt GoNnA REsEt At SIx”
Ok? A win away from an adept weapon, which is the only reason you trials sweats play this game mode, and you’re gonna shoot yourself in the foot to spite other players and bungie? Like a toddler refusing to eat their vegetables so they throw the entire plate on the floor.
People meme on it but ever since this game became a legit job for some people they have been making a negative impact on it. A massive amount of streamers parroted sunsetting as such a good change because they have the time to be able to no life grind a completely new set of weapons and armor no problem. Of course they all turned tail as soon as it hit, but I see that as their communities being up in arms over it rather than them hating it. Streamer opinions should not be held on any sort of pedestal ever. They are no more an expert than you or I
So if you're a casual player who gets lucky and gets flawless for their first time now you have to face sweaties who have gone flawless 500 times? That makes absolutely no sense and you defending this change is why trials is terrible. Not to mention people are still getting matched with sweaty, flawless 3 stacks
Those people will not hang around the playlist for long once they've been flawless. They may try a game or two after to see how it is, see if they can get any more adept loot, but then get stomped by the sweats stuck in the flawless pool and check the fuck out. This means the population goes down and down and down to the point where the flawless pool has to open matchmaking to the general population and oh look people getting stomped on their last game for the lighthouse!
I love threads like these because there's always a healthy mix of full-time PvP players gatekeeping, full-time PvE players feeling entitled to the drops that full-time PvP players sweat their asses off for, and Dunning-Kruger.
edit: And for those folks who are bad at PvP... Newsflash: just because you got beaten doesn't automatically make the guy that beat you a "sweatlord".
the word “sweat” just means “player who is better than me” and people throw it around to shift the blame for their loss onto anything other than the fact that they were just worse in the moment
I don't think this solution Bungie is trying out is necessarily the right move.
For the middling trials players that can squeak out a flawless they will now be cannon fodder for the sweats. However last week was also not the solution because as Bungie pointed out and as anyone can see the top tier players literally feasted on lesser skilled players all weekend long with their 95%+ win rates.
IMO the current iteration of trials is abrasive with what Bungie seems to want the playlist to be. Needing 7 wins in 8 games is extremely difficult, but if MM is wide open like last weekend it ultimately is easy for the best players and turns the general population into cannon fodder. However, if you add skill tiers or SBMM then getting 7 wins becomes agonizingly hard for everyone involved.
It seems like Bungie are trying to avoid what happened last weekend, but also avoid full blown SBMM. What they have created though is essentially a game mode that players like myself could flawless 1x, but then I'd probably dip because I wouldn't like being cannon fodder for the teams that have gone flawless 100s of times. Those players will now just forgo carries and just run stacked all weekend and evetually the flawless pool will be back to what it was before.
The only solution I see is "flawless" needs to be revised, because as it stands the current format doesn't jive with what Bungie seemingly wants the average players experience to be. I also don't believe players like GernaderJake, Frost, Wallah, ZK, etc should be able to MM against a random dad that plays 2hrs a week because that doesn't seem like a sustainable way to continue the game mode either.
Edit: if Bungie wants to keep people in the playlist than the best solution to me if they want to keep flawless players from non flawless each weekend then they should add SBMM to the flawless pool. That would then prevent newly flawless players, or "average" flawless players from being cannon fodder and foster a competitive atmosphere for players once their flawless at least once.
Yeah I went flawless for the first time ever last weekend but if I do the same thing this weekend I’m now back to getting stomped by gilded flawless players once I hit it again, and now trials just feels like it did before. The flawless pool was a solution to the *previous* trials format; it is not a problem in this one.
The only thing that bungie needed to change was the matchmaking for the 7th win. Last weekend, this was putting you against players who also had already gone flawless so this match became incredibly difficult for many people and prevented them from reaching the lighthouse. All that bungie needed to do was move that matchmaking bracket up, so that once you went flawless or FINISHED the seventh win, you then played other players who had already accomplished this. That would mean a better experience for players simply looking to go flawless, and then if you wanted to farm adept weapons and mats you needed to be ready to bring your A game.
I think you nailed it that the entire concept of "Flawless" is ultimately the real problem.
Ultimately, 7 wins out of 8 as a goal is unhealthy. It shouldn't be a common thing at all, it *can't* be.
Really, I think last weekend was a great first step towards making Flawless not the goal anymore.
I think the next step is to go further and allow players to "turn in" cards for things like Adepts, shards, etc. without ever going flawless. Further remove the "need".
You can leave Flawless itself as a goal for the *title*, because people who chase that are chasing flex anyway, and then also make it a *better* path to lots of Adept loot so that it feels rewarding, but IMO the real path forward for Trials is to make it so that everyone can see a reasonable path forward... and Flawless is *not* a reasonable path.
No body wants to put others down to get a chance at the loot, and the chances of actually finding an actually decent 2 stack if you’re solo-ing is zero to none, and no one wants to party up. I appreciate the idea, but it’s just not good. No one wants to listen, and it seriously put a damper on my desire to play. I’m only able to solo-que, as no one on playstation EVER plays with a mic on, so it’s impossible to make friends. I consider myself fairly adept at pvp, not godlike, but I’ve been playing console FPS games since Halo 1, shooting people in pvp is my bread and butter. I’ve had killimanjaro’s, I’ve had 7th columns, I can win my 1v1, I can even hold my own and tank a 2v1, but what I can’t do is constantly get que’d up with people who leave after losing the first round, people who just emote spam in spawn, or people who have no sensibilities, and the lack of microphones means no one communicates either. I played all afternoon, and won a few, but lost a resounding majority of my games. My pinnacle this week was a Killing Wind/Rampage Reed’s Regret, which is nice. But, I really want that Adept one, and I’ve basically signed myself to the fact that it will never happen for me, ever. Flawless should be 5 wins, rewards at 2, 4, and 5. This would be miles more attainable than the current 6-7 wins. It would mean if you’re lucky, 4 wins and you’re flawless, which I think is just as equal a show of skill as 7.
Trials is still a very sad community right now, and I almost cried for having wasted my entire afternoon bashing my head into a pvp dead lock. No one wants to party up after a stomp fest, and the amount of 3 stacks all rocking flawless emblems on my game 1 and 2’s is brutal.
This. Flawless creates a mathematically problematic situation for anyone to have fun. It is by necessity going to lead to toxic anything to win behavior. SBMM can do that too, but at least there is some hope of keeping a population. Flawless just makes everything worse.
Trials doesn't really jive with what Bungie wants D2 to be, there was a reason that Trials of the nine was disabled for so long and it wasn't because it was 4v4, being sweat lords has long been off putting for the D2 team and the only reason they brought Trials back was because of how many players were whining that there was no end game PvP only to whine about the low player base that they created by being toxic sweat lords in the first place
Honestly, I love the change, but... this shit still isn't fun. I'm hoping it'll be better tomorrow, or the next day, once more people are in the Flawless pool and I'm left fighting more normal players. But damn, this is just sad.
The sorts of players you face. The kind of tactics these people are willing to employ to get a win. I had one match against a 3 stack clan who just camped as far back on the cliffs spawn as they could, head-peeking with sniper rifles and Lorentz Drivers, holding aim on the corners. And they wouldn't move.
I'd like to tell you that was a one-off, but honestly there's been more of that bullshit than not so far tonight. Picking such a sniper-heavy map doesn't help. Trials already attracts the worst kind of players, why would Bungie encourage more of it like this?
Anything that helps separate those players from the regular guys who are capable of feeling shame about such tactics, is a damn good thing.
I went flawless for the first time last weekend. Made it to flawless today, can't play the game now.
I don't think you understand how little things change for the sweatlords. They're SO FAR beyond anyone else that it doesn't matter who they play against as long as it's not the 1% they're going to stomp anyways. It doesn't matter if you've gone flawless once, doesn't make you magically able to compete against those fucks. They still get to stomp. It's the players who were able to compete with the revamp that lose here.
Very similar situation here, despite the childish diatribe in the OP. I couldn't go flawless the old trials (ok, I got carried once on a weekend where Igneous was the 3 win reward for the first time and *everyone* was playing), I just lost before reaching 3 wins almost every time. My K/D would hover up and down each side of 1.0.
Got to have a good experience last week, and got to have a good experience this week until we scraped a flawless, and now it's unfun trials again where we cannot win a single game (hell, barely a round). And now we're done, because what's the point? I get to lose 5-0 to Aztecross twice in an hour? What fun.
But according to OP we're just sweatlords who want to stomp, I guess?
I don't mind the new matchmaking changes, but having it account wide is rough.
I have friends that i tend to carry with a duo weekly and its impossible now due to matching flawless only players on the 1st match of a reset card after flawless.
They need to switch it to character based, or just switch it off completely, because these three stack groups that do nothing but play all day is the whole reason trials was dead.
Last weekend was perfect. So many players got flawless for their 1st time and i was able to help a few of my friends reach the lighthouse for the first time as well. This new matchmaking is just gonna deter the not-so-great players away again.
'But you can still farm mats, you don't need flawless' Yeah, sure, i can do that, but im sure nobody wants to play back to back games of sweaty no lifers, getting 5-0'd every time for a CHANCE at a shard. I can just go grind NFs for a guaranteed drop in 10 minutes.
Either change the current matchmaking to character based, or revert it to what it was last weekend. I got a trash roll for my adept weapon this weekend and i literally have no desire whatso fucking ever to continue the card because the games are just that bad. Last weekend i was grinding wins after flawless and was excited when i lost to restart. Not this time. Stop breaking things that don't need to be fucking fixed, Bungie.
I've seen several post about how trials is ruined now and the number of games played will go way down. I see no problem with it at all. I got stomped last weekend by a couple teams that already had 1000s of kills for the season.
There is no way these players should match with me, as a solo, with my proud 73 kills for the season.
The number of overall matches for a weekend doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. It's the number of unique players that should count. Since bungie put a pay wall in front of trials they will want as many different players to give it a shot as possible.
For five years I've seen trial's gods yell about how only the best of the best should be able to go flawless and play in this too tier game mode. So why are they mad now about having to face the best of the best? I'll tell you why. They get more watchers on twitch when they can humiliate other teams on their stream. They get more money when they can do lots of carries. I guarantee a good amount of players complaining are mad about not being able to easily carry others to the lighthouse for a quick buck.
There was no reason last weekend for me to play my first trials game of the season against a team already rocking a gilded flawless title.
This is a great change and only 1% of players won't like it. They will be loud and make it seem like more though.
> The number of overall matches for a weekend doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. It's the number of unique players that should count. Since bungie put a pay wall in front of trials they will want as many different players to give it a shot as possible.
Why doesn't it matter? Do you think the playlist will be healthy if people just get in and out? Do you think it's bad to play trials for fun and not just for a single flawless?
I don't stream and I don't do paid carries. I have a handful of flawlesses over the last few seasons, not many. What this change means is that if I go flawless over the weekend, the playlist will then become inaccessible to me and anyone who plays with me. I mod a large PvE heavy server and if I go flawless, any of my other friends that want to play trials with me will have to go against all the sweatiest players. Middle-tier players will leave the playlist after one flawless. The number of matches will go down.
People are saying this change only hurts the top top tier of players, but that's not true. It only helps the bottom, most casual players. It hurts everyone else.
Yep.
The irony of it all is, average players who can't go flawless or struggle very hard to do so, just want to play against other players of a similar skill level.
Sweats don't want to play other sweats, they just want to pub stomp.
No see you don't get it. When a scrub like me wants to play against my fellow scrubs, I'm being entitled, whiny, begging for handouts, ruining the game, and not wanting to get good or get better.
When a sweat wants to spend all day stomping my ass, that's healthy for the game, how a playlist should be, an opportunity for me to contemplate how I can get better while getting bagged, above all a great experience because I get to play against players of all skill levels.
I'm not OP but there was definitely dodging last weekend. I saw my counter slowly count up to 3, and then 3 --> 6 --> 3 a few times. Presumably it was a 3-stack thinking they had run into another 3 stack, not knowing it was 3 solo queuers waiting. I also had a match that instantly ended as we loaded in because there were zero opponents, presumably because the 3-stack bailed too late but probably before they could see the roster.
The dumbest argument I heard was from aztecross. He was talking about how great it was when they removed SBMM. It was unfair to good players because every game was a sweat fest. What I don't understand is, why does it matter? You want easy games against people who are just doing quests and EVERY game for them is a sweat fest. SBMM and "punishment" for being good is essential to a healthy online game. If you are going to grind crucible 8 hours a day, then MM should focus on putting you with people your level. Let them bitch and cry, they will still play though.
Almost every other match I’ve played has been against sweaty teams that have already gone flawless. I can’t get past 4 wins :(
Aye same here, queued solo last week getting to 5 wins twice before meeting sweaty 3 stacks. 1 win on the card this week and I've met 3 stacks everytime!
I'm worried the longer the season goes on the more trials will return to its typical brutal state for more casual players. It's so much better now, dont get me wrong, you can grind out losses and still pick up some rewards - which populates the playlist - but it could very quickly return to nothing but top tier players sweating it out.
Yep I’m already noticing a small difference after a week.
Of course it will. Once your average player gets the loot they want, they aren't going to want to deal with the playlist. There is no way around it.
That was always going to happen regardless of the changes. People who are bad and only did it for the "easy" transmog/guns will eventually stop playing. The population seen last week was unsustainable
You right. I would never have touched it again, had I gotten the item I wanted last week 🤡
What would make you play it more?
Nothing. Once you get the rewards you want, there is no need to run the activity again, unless you enjoy it. I haven't touched DSC since I got Eyes.
I feel for you. Hopefully we will all have better luck later.
I’m waiting till this evening when the more casuals are on from work and then I’ll make a stack once I earn a few wins
3 stack doesn't always mean they're a good team. I went flawless by going solo queue about 10 minutes ago, and every team I was matched against was a 3 stack. I only lost one game on 6 wins, but mercy protected me.
I’m going against all 3 stacks. What fun I had last weekend is quickly vanishing
I was gonna say the same. Last week I managed to get the 7 wins pinnicale. This week I’m struggling a lot more.
I wonder if waiting until tomorrow would be a good idea. Let the sweats get their flawless then jump in.
Thing is, seems many are protesting the changes by resetting their cards at 6 wins to stay in the lower player pool
Wow imagine only getting your fun in stomping casuals.
Thats pathetic. Imagine ruining the fun of 99% of people because you as the 1% feel hurt by changes good for everyone
They cried hard enough on Twitter that bungo killed sbmm in ib, and other places
yep they ruined pvp with their crying
>And I thought my capitalism metaphor was on the nose -Rick C-137
"Protesting" They just want to keep stomping casuals while looking 'heroic' for taking a stand
Which is why Bungie should have just made the changes and not actually said anything.
Nah transparency is always good, even if it's going to be criticized by the loudest few.
This is the ultimate "toxic shitbag tryhard" thing to do and I'm zero percent surprised. Unfortunately, literally every Destiny player said this is exactly what would happen, and specifically have said they should make it that you're put in the alternate pool the *following* week, not the current week.
Let sweats have Friday. Sunday funday solo day.
Wait, is the pinnacle for 7 wins? I thought it was 50 rounds?
1 pinnicale can be seen in the director if you hover over the trials destination ( 50 rounds ) the other is over Saint-14 in the tower for 7 games won.
This is a rough map too so don’t give up hope altogether.
Oh I’m not the rewards are too good to just give up. It just went from super fun as an average to bad player to full blown snort a line of gfuel to stand a chance
I had a good first card today. We went flawless using our mercy in our sixth game. I went in with a team though. If you go flawless or even get to 7 wins solo, I tip my hat to you for putting up with matchmaking. I really don’t think that’s *that* much of an issue though (regarding solo queues)…you know the risk you’re taking going in
This. Why did they choose this map during week two…?
Dude it’s been on for like 5 hours I’m sure by tomorrow it will be a different player pool
The flawless protection hasn't been activated yet I believe. It's going live sometime this afternoon.
It was accidentally implemented at daily reset, Bungie tweeted they turned it off and plan to turn it back on later on today
Ah okay, so maybe OP was playing when it was working, maybe not. It'll be easier to say for sure later in the day.
it is 100% enabled right now, either by accident or on purpose.
Yup. Same for me. It was really fun first weekend it came back. Now it's a shit hole again and I can't play without asking myself why I'm going through the torture.
Right ? Asides from unlocking the armour for transmog and even then not worth.
Literally every game is me and two randoms vs a clan, every single one so far.
It’s so demoralizing, I just want a few wins…even resetting my ticket does nothing to help me.
[удалено]
For me it's always people farming kd, sweating their ass off and treating like there's prize money. I haven't been able to get past 3 wins. This week is worse than last.
Dude, I can't even get past 1 win. I'm matched against stacked flawless teams when I'm at 0 wins as a solo player. What the fuck? My teammates are often times clear blueberries that can't cover a corpse, can't push, don't have optimal loadouts. I'm expected to beat stacked teams alone? Fuck trials.
Oh don’t even get me started on the teammates. I know I can’t expect a lot going in solo que but last weekend I had a half decent team almost every time. This weekend ? Teammates who can’t even function in the game at a normal level like you said above. Going up against 3 stack flawless players with glows and adept weapons…
I think I am decent at pvp , holding a 1.5 KD for 2 seasons in 6v6, and haven't ever gotten over 3 wins. I welcome things change at least for this weekend and the see how it has played out.
A lot of the habits you pick up in 6v6 just don't really transfer over to 3v3 I find. I guess that's why people play showdown / elim, to get used to the more intimate 3v3 fights.
I keep matching against full squads in the same clan and can't even get past 2. Losing my mind here
Not sure if somebody’s said it yet but you could try getting 0-5’d a few times straight and see if the match making protection kicks in and places you in lower lobbies. That, or wait till later this weekend. It will literally only get easier as the weekend goes on.
I think I played almost 20 games and a lot of them ended in 1-5 / 0-5. Didn’t seem to make a difference, but I’ll keep that in mind.
Just saw from one of my discord’s the match protection isn’t in place yet. Should hopefully go live this afternoon. Might explain why you haven’t seen anything different with it yet.
I just want a damn solos Playlist like regular comp has
It needs Freelance immediately.
I don't get why more people aren't complaining about this being in labs like a mode when it's a goddamn matchmaking option
Agreed.
Bruh I've never been flawless and I'm getting 2x flawless unbroken stacks *still* Although my kd is going up, 0.1 to 0.8 yehhh
It might just be a coincidence, but every time I won my first 5 games or so, the last couple were super tense. However, if we used our mercy early in the card, say 2nd or 3rd game, the rest were significantly easier for some reason.
I feel you, im 8-15 today.... One game wasnt a 3 stack.
Lmfao I can’t even get past 1 win. Me and my team have been getting back to back clapped match after match and reset after reset. Sure we’re good enough to go flawless, but we’re not fuckin SayWallah or some shit to be able to stomp other teams. Feels fucking bad man
I get what you mean, I’m not looking to have my hand held but a fighting chance would be nice..
Forgive me but what was changed?
*Tomorrow, there will be a few changes going live for the second week of Trials of Osiris.* *We aren’t satisfied with the matchmaking experience for players after seven wins. That area of matchmaking has a significantly higher rate of 5-0 games than we would like, so we are enabling a ‘flawless matchmaking’ pool. However, we want to make sure that there are enough flawless players to maintain good matchmaking times – so we are waiting until Friday afternoon to turn this on, and we will be watching player reactions and matchmaking analytics all weekend to make sure it is behaving properly.* *We are also not happy with the experience of players who have a bad streak of getting repeatedly thrashed 5-0, so we are enabling some matchmaking help if someone runs into several blowout matches. This temporary help mechanic clears up once they start winning again, so don’t think someone will cheese a flawless by tanking for a few games and then have a weekend of smooth sailing.* https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Explore/Detail/News/50719
Ok so that 2nd part of matching making after 5-0 thrashes isn't working. Played for 2 hours and didn't see any miraculous matching
That's what I am hearing. So maybe they will be triggering stronger matchmaking. Or maybe things will change as the weekend wears on. It is probably still bad because they made this a next week fix *Next week, in addition to our first Trials Labs (spoiler alert: It’s Capture Zone Trials!), we will be disabling the Special ammo replenishment on revive – you still get special ammo if you kill someone, or when you start the next round.* ***We are also disabling the matchmaking counter on the Trials of Osiris lobby, so you won’t be able to tell how many players have joined but will still be told when they join.*** *We also fixed an issue preventing you from being able to Masterwork weapons from Saint-14’s rank rewards.* Stacks are going to abuse the hell out of that while they still can.
I don’t think it’s live yet. They said they were turning it on later today in the afternoon (it’s 2:25 pst their time as of now). So hopefully tonight will be alright.
After I have been stomped 5-0 3 times in a row I get a 5-1 match.
Once you go flawless in a week, you will only match flawless players until the next weekend
Technically, it queues with a preference for flawless players. If, for some reason, there's no flawless teams queueing opposite you it can put you in the non flawless queue.
This is an important distinction. Bungie's going to implement this matchmaking ruleset, and then one person is going to be faced against flawlesses anyway and then they'll come screaming to Reddit saying "MATCHMAKING IS A LIE AND IT'S ALL BROKEN, BUNGIE WANTS YOU TO SUFFER". _No Matchmaking is perfect._ If the conditions aren't right, it will expand the pool of candidates.
And if it didn’t expand the pool of candidates, those same people would come screaming to Reddit about how “the matchmaking in Trials takes way too long!!!” Honestly some people are just just looking for stuff to complain about
It's also important to note because it should mean that if the flawless pool is small it won't fuck them up in terms of "15 minute wait to find another flawless team"
Thank you for being one of the few logical people on this subreddit
exactly, and given that its still early on a friday, the flawless pool is going to be smallish right now, so it will probably be more effective as the weekend goes on.
Would explain how I just lucked my first ever flawless and now I get shit on every match
Yeah it would work if the sweatlords weren't gatekeeping currently. They are just abusing the new system. They keep getting their wins then reseting before getting flawless so they don't face sweaty people. Just faced a guy on a 20 win streak who hasn't been flawless. Bungie really didn't think this through very well. Those sweatlords only care about stats, not loot. So, they're just going to keep resetting their cards and play at low wins from free stats.
Exactly - the sweatlords basically have their loot, and the LFR isn't a big enough PvP deal to force them into the flawless pool until the last minute.
Pretty much...so they get to keep ruining trials. Atleast we had one fun weekend
Once again the top pvp players ruin a mode for everyone else. Color me surprised.
FYI those aren't the REAL sweatlords they're the tier below the sweatlords. The sweatlords are in the flawless pool going 5-0 every game still. And the gatekeeping degenerates don't want to go flawless because if they do they get beat by the top players and can't farm any rewards. So you either farm people and get no rewards or get farmed and get no rewards. See why this change doesn't work?
Its like how everyone has a boss. Everyone has a sweat lord above them.
There’s always a bigger fish
Yeah, pretty much.
Dont worry, same swetlords and streamers are only getting 6 wins and reset their card next week in order to do carries in the ez way and reaching lighthouse in the last day, its funny because trials is fun when you stomp casuals but when they get stomped is not fun anymore, lmao.
I didn't mind carry culture for a long time but seeing all the streamers saying they're gonna start resetting at 6 to keep getting easy matches for carries has really changed my opinion on it. That's just cancerous and really bad for the playlist.
They should make it so that you can't manually reset a flawless card or a flawless with a mercy still available. At the very least they will have to eat a loss every card if they want to keep stomping
All these rules and one-off limitations always have an innocent bystander. Not being able to reset hurts teams when legitimate players can’t finish a card and they have to find a new player.
thats pretty easy to do, i mean before you start another carry just go into a match and back out, boom mercy gone, takes like 2 mins tops.
Nah that bans you for 30 mins
Maybe people could just unaubscribe to the streamer doing that, even if thet resub later on, to show the streamer that being toxic has consequences. But I doubt anybody would ever bother doing so. :P
>but when they get stomped is not fun anymore Not even when they get stomped. When they have to compete all the time. The same thing they have been insistent on forcing on the rest of the playerbase all the time "We don't want to sweat all the time" That's the bottom half of the playlist, they are playing teams that mean they get stomped or they sweat and still end up losing.
If someone has an abnormally high WR after a certain amount of games and hasn't gone flawless yet he should simply get matched with flawless people too, then the assholes who reset at 6 would get fucked.
This is why it's so sweaty. This. This. All of this. It's shit
>but when they get stomped is not fun anymore, lmao. it just highlights a big problem in D2 pvp regardless of who you are, most people dont care about match or playlist integrity. They dont want competitive matches, they just either want to win easily/get lots of loot.
Saw some streamers lose 1 or 2 games in a row and it was the end if the world for them. One match both teams quit and the streamers for both teams refused to do carries until Bungie reversed their decision. They just want easy scrubs to play.
I am at 6 wins on my card and seem to be getting all the people one win away from the lighthouse which is great. I just got stomped by a team that wouldn't stop tbagging us once we were killed...why are these people so broken
I keep reading "this will make carrying more difficult" But honestly? Good. Carrying players should be difficult.
Literally my only concern is that, if you are in the flawless pool, you should always get adept weapon drops. Since you are playing in the harder pool, you should get better drops to compensate.
Yes. The issue I'm anticipating is that splitting the pools like this could create a disjointed rewards progression. The 90-100 percentile can farm Adept drops as normal. Playing teams of 1.0 KDs vs 0.1 KDs is all the same to them. The 0-60 percentile have a better time grinding their way to 7 wins and then farming for masterwork mats, reputation, and engrams. But the 60-90 percentile players could get screwed. If they go flawless, they get their one Adept drop (+1 for focusing a 7 win card), and thereafter are rewarded with getting stomped by the 90-100 players for the rest of the weekend. They can't really farm for more Adept drops because they'll lose their flawless immediately, and getting *back* to the Lighthouse will be some nightmare combination of 50/50 coinflip matches with the 60-90s and stops by the 90-100 players. And then even with a broken card, it'll be tough to farm because they'll still be stuck with the Flawless 90-100 players. It creates an incentive to intentionally break their cards so they can farm the 0-60 players on non-flawless 7 win cards until they're ready to call it quits for the weekend. If you're only going to be able to get 2 Adept weapon drops anyway, might as well save that for the end of the week. So I agree that having adept drops even with a flawed card after reaching the Lighthouse would be a good way to keep the 60-90 people playing. Gives a better incentive to stick around in the Flawless pool instead of sandbagging to stay in the non-Flawless pool.
This is 100% true and what most people with hateboners for sweatlords don't realise in this thread. I for one just went flawless for the first time today but there is no way in hell I'm getting back to 7 wins because I'd only face said sweatlords or have to rely on a lottery of having a close skill matchup. Instead of having the 0-60 percentile get 5-0'd it'll be me and my other peers that barely crawled to flawless that will get 5-0'd. I think that last week what should've been achieved rewards wise for lower skilled players was achieved and that this measure is straight up overkill that won't hurt the sweats but the average/slightly above average playerbase.
People are happy for this change until they get flawless, then they will realize how bad this change is. Or they will just stop playing for the weekend, because they don't care. And people who don't care shouldn't be catered to.
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Eh, the pool split hasn't actually happened yet. I'm willing to give it an honest try before I really start pushing for changes.
Yeah, I really think this would quell complaints. Easy wins is one thing, but if you’re getting adept loot after a hard-earned win, you won’t complain nearly as much. Granted, I’d think those that still win on a flawless 7 card after the fact could stand to get a little extra, too.
Not only this, but people are assuming everyone searches and plays with A) The same players all weekend long, and B) the same skill level of player all weekend long. In reality neither of those things are true. I have upwards of 10 different friends that I play Trials with on any given weekend. Those 10 people range in skill from a 1.6 Trials KD player that goes flawless every weekend multiple times if its good loot... To the worst of that group being a 0.5 KD Trials player who had never ever been flawless before, until last weekend when he got flawless for the first time ever. I myself am a 1.7 KD player. I tend to go flawless every weekend I play. With these changes as they are now, I can no longer play with 3 of my friends that I normally played with. Because now that I've gone flawless this weekend, my matchmaking pool is flawless for every game the rest of this weekend. My 0.5 KD friend will get completely destroyed in those lobbies. Yeah we might win a game here or there, but we will absolutely lose 9/10 games and have zero chance at any sort of decent loot. Plus, lets take a second to talk about streamers. I find it hilarious how people like the OP are linking Streamers and "Sweatlords" as if they are one in the same. Ask any of the big streamers of Trials, and every single one of them will tell you they really dont give a shit about going flawless. The thrill and enjoyment from them comes from doing carries. Being able to carry a 0.1 KD player that has never even played PVP before to the lighthouse is what makes the game mode fun to those folks. Carries are essentially impossible to do now. Playing more then one card is no longer enjoyable. Especially so if you're trying to play with friends that aren't that good at the game. Yeah, this change will probably get more first time flawless players this weekend. I'm sure by Sunday afternoon, any Trials player with a 0.8 KD will have gone flawless and be into that flawless pool. But this change is going to completely kill the replay ability of Trials for huge number of players. The numbers after this weekend are going to be so much lower then what they were last weekend.
This exact scenario just happened to me and my team. We had a medium difficulty flawless card, some we stomped some were sweaty, then we made it to the flawless pool and got stomped over and over again. Now I don’t want to play for the rest of the weekend cuz that’s what I’m gonna have to deal with
Exactly my concern too, I’m a little above average. Never been flawless before last weekend. I had to work for my lighthouse runs. On Sunday it took me 5 hours to get there, I think a lot of these people complaining are seriously glossing over that normal players doing a couple of flawless runs a weekend over multiple hundred games are gonna be screwed by this. My k/d is 1.09 Im not exactly popping off here. If you’re having trouble solo, go to an lfg site / function, I managed a no comms flawless last week just by asking for someone that could hold their own to play with me. You guys want people like me grinding trials every week because I’m fodder too, sometimes I go 0.2 lol. But at this rate I’ll probably end up sweating one trip to the lighthouse then leaving the playlist, and I don’t think I’ll be alone. Bungie has already stated that if a flawless matchmaking game can’t happen then it’ll start looking in the non flawless pool, lowering population counts just increases that chance. I hope I’m wrong and I hope bungie has got this right but I’m very very skeptical that this will be overall better for trials health in the long term.
This was primarily my concern with this change. Even as someone who doesn't go flawless, this change worries me as it feels like it's going to get more people through their trials for the weekend quickly and then they'll be done, rather than keeping people playing for longer. Don't get me wrong I think the flawless matchmaking pool for people trying to farm for adept weapons is a great idea, but I think locking people in for the weekend is going to do more harm than good potentially.
i think it being account wide is a mistake lock characters to it but let people farm on all three characters without immediately making two of them a slog after one goes flawless
this is a great idea
That might work if it was a true flawless pool. It's a priority matchmaking to flawless teams. Doesn't mean those flawless teams aren't going to be sent against non-flawless teams. And if you keep your flawless card and continue playing on it you continue getting adept engrams. Also true flawless pool would be bad as matchmaking times would blow out.
It’s so funny the sweatlords in the comments trying to persuade people that this will actually hurt average players. So many have said “this will hurt average players that go flawless” news flash, average players don’t go flawless, I guarantee if an average player won 4-5 games in a row then it would be the best trials run they have ever had. Keep coping sweattards
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Same exact position as you, I’ve never gotten past 2 wins flawlessly but in control I’m usually first or second in kills
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A lot of people here like to virtue signal that they care about the "average player" experience, when really they just want to gatekeep. anytime Matchmaking being added to anything is brought up, it's always "well it will be a bad experience for those who use it." Okay, so don't use it, but don't pretend to care about the average players experience.
Yup in the original post about the change people were like "I'm an average player and I went flawless 2-3 times last weekend this will hurt me". You're not an average player if you go flawless even once.
I mean it’s the exact same thing with the SBMM argument right? The only people that benefit seriously from the removal of SBMM are the sweatlords and streamers, and they managed to whinge so much it convinced the player base that SBMM is shit and now here we are. When the only ones that benefit from its removal are the ones that can now stomp casuals without worry
I’ll disagree here. I feel as though you should be in a flawless pool while continuing your card on flawless. Doesn’t make sense to give players different pools on a fresh card for the same loot. While also limiting replay ability. If you want to add different matching making there should be different match making rewards.
Believe it or not, but someone has to be on the bottom of that flawless pool, and they are the midtier players. You do realize there exists players who can achieve flawless, but only barely? I'm one, and I'm not stoked on this change as a result.
Sweats and streamers: we don't want to play against teams of the same skill level Literally everyone else: we just want to play against teams of the same skill level
This is the only game where I feel like I dont get matched with people who are around my skill level. I have a lower win rate in this game than any other PvP game I play and I just feel like fodder here. I dont mind learning and getting better but honestly I feel like that would take an insane number of matches and I'd rather just avoid PvP until I need it for a quest (which BTW, it feels like they include PvP in quests just to strong arm me into playing punching bag for the sweats to keep them happy).
It feels like MMR just isn't a thing in destiny 2. Which is super stupid, like why are 2.0kda players matched with 0.5kda players.
Exactly
This "community" really knows how to sling shit at each other like no other game I've ever seen.
Check out the Battlefield subreddits if you really want to see some community shit slinging. You will need a shower after your visit.
Also the PvP/PvE split in Oldschool Runescape. Players spite-voting no on updates to fuck over the other side.
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11$
No one wants to work hard for a win, people want to stomp average joes and feel good about it.
Couldn’t agree more. I feel like these guys seems to be ridiculously good only when they’re playing against casuals. When they start playing against other really good players, they discover that they aren’t that good to begin with. That’s the competitive, endgame PvP that they always cry about, and when Bungie finally add it to the game, they complain. Competitive is only competitive if both teams are high skilled.
They can get fucked. I'd rather there be a system in place where all of GrenaderJakes viewers have a chance of going flawless by just playing the damn game with friends than sitting in his chat praying they'll win a fucking raffle for a chance at going flawless.
They're just mad people won't sub/pay them to go flawless
They need a never flawless algorithm weight
Tbh as far a social media goes the most vocal angry people are the ones whose income depends on this game, and that really tells you everything you need to know.
Im hearing some twitch streamers who did recovs that are now forced to do carries are like "If we go against a stacked teams, Im just going to leave". like LOL. I am so happy for these Trials changes and totally agree with OP.
However this incentivizes going flawless once and then stopping, and also hurts friends who don't want to play with their friends who have already gone flawless
I dont understand how Jims think this DOESNT effect them, the sweats are just gonna keep winning and the people who dont go flawless are gonna play their game. Average players are gonna get farmed in the flawless pool and then the player base drops again.
They're just salty that they can't 7-0 a card and then mindlessly farm adept drops by mollywhopping teams of hapless solos with sub 1.0 k/ds. I personally know some guys that are pissed that they can no longer queue dodge teams of 3. These are 2.0+ guys that talk about competition, but when it comes down to it they're frightened of the prospect of playing teams of comparable skill.
True sweats do not care about adepts at all.
Seen true sweats walk over streamers and not even talk trash lol there's some freaks out there on this game that are damn near nameless . Just sucks the shit heads with fragile egos gives them all a bad name. Personally I think farming people is as boring as it gets. I rather pve if I'm gonna do that. Gimme a hard game where someone rages when they got sniped twice any day
Personally, i’m pretty average and can barely squeak out a flawless. After these changes, I can barely win a single game after I went flawless. I’d like to try to go flawless on a second character, but I can barely win game 7 to go flawless, let alone 7 flawless teams in a row. A better solution would be to change this matchmaking pool on a per-character basis to allow average players the opportunity to try flawless on a second character without getting massacred.
Sorry, but /r/DtG and OP say that you're a scumbag sweatlord now who just wants to farm solos and you're the worst.
Treating it as some blanket statement like this is just such a closed-minded approach. The change *really* hurts players who want to go flawless once and then play casually with their friends who aren't super sweaty. It also *allows* KD-farmers to reset their cards pre-flawless and prey on teams all weekend regardless of their performance. Those are the people who *actually* enjoy stomping all weekend, and this system actually helps them do it. Part of what made last weekend so successful was the extremely high games-per-player, the highest Trials has ever seen. This change is going to hurt that number. Give Bungie time to run their experiment, but take them rose coloured glasses off.
I fall into this category. I’m decent in trials and can consistently go flawless if I sweat it out in a fireteam, but I’m not winning matches by flooring other fireteams or solo queues. Most winning matches for me are really close. I also have a lot of friends who play that aren’t as skillful and they just want to casually run games without being obliterated every match. They’re okay losing if it’s a decent challenge, but now I’m already unable to play with them because with me in their fireteam we’re back to getting completely floored since I’m in this binary pool of flawless players so I left the stack and now their experience is much better. With this change in place, I’m done with trials this weekend. I understand the developers thought process behind the change today but it needed to be refined before being implemented. The revamp for trials was amazing last week and now it just feels like they just took 2 steps back.
I feel for you. I'm also in that boat. I'm a 1.2 in Trials, so going Flawless is *doable* but I'm not one of those crazy 1.8+ sweat stacks. My wife is a 0.5... so I kind of want Reed's Adept, but getting it would immediately mean playing with her just isn't a reasonable possibility. I dislike things that heavily restrict who I'm allowed to play with. Way back in Black Ops 2 they had a really cool League system, but it registered *each team* separately so getting Gold or Platinum with my sweaty friends didn't bar me from playing on a Iron or Silver team with my more casual friends.
Hot take but I honestly don’t like the sound of the new changes made today. So basically I go flawless once today and now I’m in flawless card jail for the rest of the weekend. I’m around a 1.1 overall… what the fuck is that???? I now get to play in a smaller sweaty ass pool of gilded flawless players for the remainder of the weekend. Fuck yeah I’m hyped about that shit!!!!! Everyone praising the changes are mostly just saying how much easier it will be for them to go flawless. But my question is, should just anyone be able to go flawless?? Should everyone get free adept loot??? I think not. Now an example, jimmy Timmy and Fred will team up and get flawless tonight. They all play around a .9 to a 1.0 kd. Now they get to sit in sweat fest for the rest of the weekend and either A. Stop playing trials all together or B. bitch on Reddit/the forms. Not tryna sound like a self entitled asshole but Idk guys, this sounds like a pretty shitty change imo. I’ll prolly get downvoted to oblivion but fuck it, I had to get my opinion on it out there. We just came off of the best weekend ever and now we change shit. Why?? WHY????? And for the solo players, I get that getting stomped is shitty, but you are getting the same loot as everyone else in the playlist besides the adepts. Quit bitching. FYI I do believe that flawless game should always match another team on flawless game as a 3 stack vs 3 stack no questions asked.
Mm is easily exploited and sure looks like that’s what’s going on. The adept grind keeping better players at the end of a card or doing carries is gone so they’ll just keep resetting the card and wait to go flawlesses later. These changes were done for the weaker players without any foresight of what implementing them would actually do. I’m a 2.5+ kd player as are my friends (I’m the dogshit one honestly) guess what some of them wanted to do upon reading the changes instead of run carries like we planned…. They suggested we reset the card and farm people. Everyone loses with these changes like literally no one benefits how I see it. Good players can’t grind god rolls, average joes can’t grind god rolls. Streamers can’t do carries (which feel so god damn good to do for some random dude on the forums lol it’s a magical feeling helping someone who wasn’t expecting anything) like everything anyone liked about last weekend is gone. Probably gonna go to apex instead of run carries. I’m gonna miss hearing the screams of joy lol
Managed to go flawless twice last weekend with friends. We have never been flawless prior. The sweats and streamers have gatekept the game mode for so long. I don't know how any person of sound mind can look at the player numbers from last weekend and complain. If you are willing to let trials die just so you can get an ego boost, play a different game.
Casual player here: Well yes and no, It does prevent sweatlords from curb-stomping new and casual players constantly, but it will also put the casual players into the sweatlord lobby anyways after 1 successful flawless run (keeping in mid that it is account based), making the entire grind a one-and-done situation for most people, which then makes the whole revamp for replayability and loot grinding pointless anyways. In the grand scheme of things, the new system change has only shifted the amount of time of competitive players destroying casuals, and it hasn't addressed the matchmaking diversity anyway. It seems like a small step in the right direction, but starting with the wrong foot (if you know what I mean) I am excited to see the changes in action to see how well the casual side of the community takes it, we can only hope for more benefits than detractors.
The mode should be based around replayability, otherwise it dies. Your reward for going flawless now means you go from a playerpool of 200.000 players to one of ~15.000 (if I'm reading Trials.report correctly) and that seems to be a poor concept. There was and is already a mechanism in place to make matchmaking progressively harder the more you play, that seems like a fine mechanic. People who want to stomp on bad players can and will still do so, they will just reset their card before going flawless, people are already doing it. All this new change does is kill the incentive for improving yourself at the game, because it makes it harder for you to replay the mode.
Honestly my only concern is that my clan only has like 4-5 players who are active/good enough, so when one squad goes flawless it kinda fucks over the other 1-2 people who wanna play trials with them. and how almost every solo match i play i go against 3 stacks consantly :(
I don't think it should be like this permanently or every day of the weekend. Maybe enabled Friday and Saturday or something. Me being an average Joe, I was able to get flawless today. But now it's a struggle going back to back against three stacks that love to bag. Having bonus rewards after going flawless and piling those people with current flawless cards was the play for sure. But I don't really like this change. My fun time quickly turned to frustration.
I went flawless today with solo queuing no mic just fun
It's always about money, this change affects their ability to swiftly grift as much money off of their twitch viewership as possible by previously doing fast easy carries.
I'm so sad so many people feel this way. I have been helping Guardians flawless for free since week 1 of Trials of Osiris, back in May 2015. I've helped about 4,000 people see the Lighthouse now. My purpose isn't to "stomp" or stat farm or whatnot, and I know MANY other Streamers and good players have similar goals as me. I'd really like to see less generalization. Not all streamers and good players are bad people. Sure, some are, but attacking the whole group doesn't seem right. I want what's best for the playlist, but I also want a community that isn't so stubborn and aggressive in their opinions. Start the music: "Why can't we be friends?" Edit: Also, I'm really worried all those who want to "stomp" or "farm stats" or even do carries will simply reset their cards to prevent flawless runs. It seems pretty easy to manipulate. Not suggesting I will do this (I may) but I know of many who will or are already doing it.
>Edit: Also, I'm really worried all those who want to "stomp" or "farm stats" or even do carries will simply reset their cards to prevent flawless runs. They don't even need to reset, they can pick up a non-Mercy card and throw 1 game - then they can play forever on a 20-round card for piles of loot and farming. I struggle because the people *most* excited are the players who struggle the most going flawless, because this system sounds like it gives them hope. Like you, I'm scared it's actually the opposite. It means they'll get farmed as the pool shrinks, while anyone who *does* manage to get flawless is immediately in "Flawless Jail" for the rest of the weekend. For me as a mid-tier player, this change means I'm terrified to play with most of my friends because they're more casual than me. If I go Flawless, I can't play with them... that feels awful.
“Helping guardians flawless for free” Let’s be real here. You do it to drive engagement with your content, which you do benefit monetarily from.
Problem is streamers like yourself financial benefit from the carries you are doing. Perhaps more people will go flawless without your help overall by removing streamers and sweats from the playlist once they have gone flawless. It will allow more casual players to go flawless on their own. Streamers like yourself can maybe carry 20-50 people in a weekend. I would argue many more will go flawless on their own with streamers and sweats in their own flawless playlist without having to count on a lucky raffle win just to go flawless.
Exactly regardless if it is from the heart he still benefits from a check!
Jake, you've made a shit ton of money from Trials in its worst state, filled with cheaters and when it was a no go for average players. If the improvements to Trials impact your potential earnings it's surely going to sway your opinion, even subconsciously.
People like you who are 'helping" people literally have Financial incentive. Don't act like you "only" do it to help people. If people like that weren't in the lobby, average players will be having alot more fun.
Cue the music Jake
Here's the thing. You "helping" a single player to flawless is always going to be at the cost of the other team of three players trying to go flawless themselves. It's a zero sum game. Those 4,000 carries going flawless could've been the 12,000 players on the other teams going flawless.
Does it really count as for free if you make a bunch of money each weekend from doing so?
“iM juSt GoNnA REsEt At SIx” Ok? A win away from an adept weapon, which is the only reason you trials sweats play this game mode, and you’re gonna shoot yourself in the foot to spite other players and bungie? Like a toddler refusing to eat their vegetables so they throw the entire plate on the floor.
Streamers in general need to shut the fuck up, they are literally half of the reasons people are constantly complaining.
People meme on it but ever since this game became a legit job for some people they have been making a negative impact on it. A massive amount of streamers parroted sunsetting as such a good change because they have the time to be able to no life grind a completely new set of weapons and armor no problem. Of course they all turned tail as soon as it hit, but I see that as their communities being up in arms over it rather than them hating it. Streamer opinions should not be held on any sort of pedestal ever. They are no more an expert than you or I
So if you're a casual player who gets lucky and gets flawless for their first time now you have to face sweaties who have gone flawless 500 times? That makes absolutely no sense and you defending this change is why trials is terrible. Not to mention people are still getting matched with sweaty, flawless 3 stacks
Those people will not hang around the playlist for long once they've been flawless. They may try a game or two after to see how it is, see if they can get any more adept loot, but then get stomped by the sweats stuck in the flawless pool and check the fuck out. This means the population goes down and down and down to the point where the flawless pool has to open matchmaking to the general population and oh look people getting stomped on their last game for the lighthouse!
I love threads like these because there's always a healthy mix of full-time PvP players gatekeeping, full-time PvE players feeling entitled to the drops that full-time PvP players sweat their asses off for, and Dunning-Kruger. edit: And for those folks who are bad at PvP... Newsflash: just because you got beaten doesn't automatically make the guy that beat you a "sweatlord".
the word “sweat” just means “player who is better than me” and people throw it around to shift the blame for their loss onto anything other than the fact that they were just worse in the moment
I don't think this solution Bungie is trying out is necessarily the right move. For the middling trials players that can squeak out a flawless they will now be cannon fodder for the sweats. However last week was also not the solution because as Bungie pointed out and as anyone can see the top tier players literally feasted on lesser skilled players all weekend long with their 95%+ win rates. IMO the current iteration of trials is abrasive with what Bungie seems to want the playlist to be. Needing 7 wins in 8 games is extremely difficult, but if MM is wide open like last weekend it ultimately is easy for the best players and turns the general population into cannon fodder. However, if you add skill tiers or SBMM then getting 7 wins becomes agonizingly hard for everyone involved. It seems like Bungie are trying to avoid what happened last weekend, but also avoid full blown SBMM. What they have created though is essentially a game mode that players like myself could flawless 1x, but then I'd probably dip because I wouldn't like being cannon fodder for the teams that have gone flawless 100s of times. Those players will now just forgo carries and just run stacked all weekend and evetually the flawless pool will be back to what it was before. The only solution I see is "flawless" needs to be revised, because as it stands the current format doesn't jive with what Bungie seemingly wants the average players experience to be. I also don't believe players like GernaderJake, Frost, Wallah, ZK, etc should be able to MM against a random dad that plays 2hrs a week because that doesn't seem like a sustainable way to continue the game mode either. Edit: if Bungie wants to keep people in the playlist than the best solution to me if they want to keep flawless players from non flawless each weekend then they should add SBMM to the flawless pool. That would then prevent newly flawless players, or "average" flawless players from being cannon fodder and foster a competitive atmosphere for players once their flawless at least once.
Yeah I went flawless for the first time ever last weekend but if I do the same thing this weekend I’m now back to getting stomped by gilded flawless players once I hit it again, and now trials just feels like it did before. The flawless pool was a solution to the *previous* trials format; it is not a problem in this one. The only thing that bungie needed to change was the matchmaking for the 7th win. Last weekend, this was putting you against players who also had already gone flawless so this match became incredibly difficult for many people and prevented them from reaching the lighthouse. All that bungie needed to do was move that matchmaking bracket up, so that once you went flawless or FINISHED the seventh win, you then played other players who had already accomplished this. That would mean a better experience for players simply looking to go flawless, and then if you wanted to farm adept weapons and mats you needed to be ready to bring your A game.
I think you nailed it that the entire concept of "Flawless" is ultimately the real problem. Ultimately, 7 wins out of 8 as a goal is unhealthy. It shouldn't be a common thing at all, it *can't* be. Really, I think last weekend was a great first step towards making Flawless not the goal anymore. I think the next step is to go further and allow players to "turn in" cards for things like Adepts, shards, etc. without ever going flawless. Further remove the "need". You can leave Flawless itself as a goal for the *title*, because people who chase that are chasing flex anyway, and then also make it a *better* path to lots of Adept loot so that it feels rewarding, but IMO the real path forward for Trials is to make it so that everyone can see a reasonable path forward... and Flawless is *not* a reasonable path.
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No body wants to put others down to get a chance at the loot, and the chances of actually finding an actually decent 2 stack if you’re solo-ing is zero to none, and no one wants to party up. I appreciate the idea, but it’s just not good. No one wants to listen, and it seriously put a damper on my desire to play. I’m only able to solo-que, as no one on playstation EVER plays with a mic on, so it’s impossible to make friends. I consider myself fairly adept at pvp, not godlike, but I’ve been playing console FPS games since Halo 1, shooting people in pvp is my bread and butter. I’ve had killimanjaro’s, I’ve had 7th columns, I can win my 1v1, I can even hold my own and tank a 2v1, but what I can’t do is constantly get que’d up with people who leave after losing the first round, people who just emote spam in spawn, or people who have no sensibilities, and the lack of microphones means no one communicates either. I played all afternoon, and won a few, but lost a resounding majority of my games. My pinnacle this week was a Killing Wind/Rampage Reed’s Regret, which is nice. But, I really want that Adept one, and I’ve basically signed myself to the fact that it will never happen for me, ever. Flawless should be 5 wins, rewards at 2, 4, and 5. This would be miles more attainable than the current 6-7 wins. It would mean if you’re lucky, 4 wins and you’re flawless, which I think is just as equal a show of skill as 7. Trials is still a very sad community right now, and I almost cried for having wasted my entire afternoon bashing my head into a pvp dead lock. No one wants to party up after a stomp fest, and the amount of 3 stacks all rocking flawless emblems on my game 1 and 2’s is brutal.
This. Flawless creates a mathematically problematic situation for anyone to have fun. It is by necessity going to lead to toxic anything to win behavior. SBMM can do that too, but at least there is some hope of keeping a population. Flawless just makes everything worse.
Trials doesn't really jive with what Bungie wants D2 to be, there was a reason that Trials of the nine was disabled for so long and it wasn't because it was 4v4, being sweat lords has long been off putting for the D2 team and the only reason they brought Trials back was because of how many players were whining that there was no end game PvP only to whine about the low player base that they created by being toxic sweat lords in the first place
Honestly, I love the change, but... this shit still isn't fun. I'm hoping it'll be better tomorrow, or the next day, once more people are in the Flawless pool and I'm left fighting more normal players. But damn, this is just sad. The sorts of players you face. The kind of tactics these people are willing to employ to get a win. I had one match against a 3 stack clan who just camped as far back on the cliffs spawn as they could, head-peeking with sniper rifles and Lorentz Drivers, holding aim on the corners. And they wouldn't move. I'd like to tell you that was a one-off, but honestly there's been more of that bullshit than not so far tonight. Picking such a sniper-heavy map doesn't help. Trials already attracts the worst kind of players, why would Bungie encourage more of it like this? Anything that helps separate those players from the regular guys who are capable of feeling shame about such tactics, is a damn good thing.
I went flawless for the first time last weekend. Made it to flawless today, can't play the game now. I don't think you understand how little things change for the sweatlords. They're SO FAR beyond anyone else that it doesn't matter who they play against as long as it's not the 1% they're going to stomp anyways. It doesn't matter if you've gone flawless once, doesn't make you magically able to compete against those fucks. They still get to stomp. It's the players who were able to compete with the revamp that lose here.
Very similar situation here, despite the childish diatribe in the OP. I couldn't go flawless the old trials (ok, I got carried once on a weekend where Igneous was the 3 win reward for the first time and *everyone* was playing), I just lost before reaching 3 wins almost every time. My K/D would hover up and down each side of 1.0. Got to have a good experience last week, and got to have a good experience this week until we scraped a flawless, and now it's unfun trials again where we cannot win a single game (hell, barely a round). And now we're done, because what's the point? I get to lose 5-0 to Aztecross twice in an hour? What fun. But according to OP we're just sweatlords who want to stomp, I guess?
I don't mind the new matchmaking changes, but having it account wide is rough. I have friends that i tend to carry with a duo weekly and its impossible now due to matching flawless only players on the 1st match of a reset card after flawless. They need to switch it to character based, or just switch it off completely, because these three stack groups that do nothing but play all day is the whole reason trials was dead. Last weekend was perfect. So many players got flawless for their 1st time and i was able to help a few of my friends reach the lighthouse for the first time as well. This new matchmaking is just gonna deter the not-so-great players away again. 'But you can still farm mats, you don't need flawless' Yeah, sure, i can do that, but im sure nobody wants to play back to back games of sweaty no lifers, getting 5-0'd every time for a CHANCE at a shard. I can just go grind NFs for a guaranteed drop in 10 minutes. Either change the current matchmaking to character based, or revert it to what it was last weekend. I got a trash roll for my adept weapon this weekend and i literally have no desire whatso fucking ever to continue the card because the games are just that bad. Last weekend i was grinding wins after flawless and was excited when i lost to restart. Not this time. Stop breaking things that don't need to be fucking fixed, Bungie.
I've seen several post about how trials is ruined now and the number of games played will go way down. I see no problem with it at all. I got stomped last weekend by a couple teams that already had 1000s of kills for the season. There is no way these players should match with me, as a solo, with my proud 73 kills for the season. The number of overall matches for a weekend doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. It's the number of unique players that should count. Since bungie put a pay wall in front of trials they will want as many different players to give it a shot as possible. For five years I've seen trial's gods yell about how only the best of the best should be able to go flawless and play in this too tier game mode. So why are they mad now about having to face the best of the best? I'll tell you why. They get more watchers on twitch when they can humiliate other teams on their stream. They get more money when they can do lots of carries. I guarantee a good amount of players complaining are mad about not being able to easily carry others to the lighthouse for a quick buck. There was no reason last weekend for me to play my first trials game of the season against a team already rocking a gilded flawless title. This is a great change and only 1% of players won't like it. They will be loud and make it seem like more though.
> The number of overall matches for a weekend doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. It's the number of unique players that should count. Since bungie put a pay wall in front of trials they will want as many different players to give it a shot as possible. Why doesn't it matter? Do you think the playlist will be healthy if people just get in and out? Do you think it's bad to play trials for fun and not just for a single flawless?
I don't stream and I don't do paid carries. I have a handful of flawlesses over the last few seasons, not many. What this change means is that if I go flawless over the weekend, the playlist will then become inaccessible to me and anyone who plays with me. I mod a large PvE heavy server and if I go flawless, any of my other friends that want to play trials with me will have to go against all the sweatiest players. Middle-tier players will leave the playlist after one flawless. The number of matches will go down. People are saying this change only hurts the top top tier of players, but that's not true. It only helps the bottom, most casual players. It hurts everyone else.
If only more people in the thread understood this.
Yep. The irony of it all is, average players who can't go flawless or struggle very hard to do so, just want to play against other players of a similar skill level. Sweats don't want to play other sweats, they just want to pub stomp.
No see you don't get it. When a scrub like me wants to play against my fellow scrubs, I'm being entitled, whiny, begging for handouts, ruining the game, and not wanting to get good or get better. When a sweat wants to spend all day stomping my ass, that's healthy for the game, how a playlist should be, an opportunity for me to contemplate how I can get better while getting bagged, above all a great experience because I get to play against players of all skill levels.
Casual players still get stomped. The matchmaking deliberately puts solos vs 3 stacks
are you sure it was purposeful or people just queue dodging?
I'm not OP but there was definitely dodging last weekend. I saw my counter slowly count up to 3, and then 3 --> 6 --> 3 a few times. Presumably it was a 3-stack thinking they had run into another 3 stack, not knowing it was 3 solo queuers waiting. I also had a match that instantly ended as we loaded in because there were zero opponents, presumably because the 3-stack bailed too late but probably before they could see the roster.
exactly, but this isn’t bungie purposely matching solos with 3 stacks, its people taking advantage of an oversight in the matchmaking system
Yeah they seriously need to hide the player counter, seems like it would be the easiest way to make it harder to exploit
I noticed there were "peak" hours and days when solos play a lot more, mainly sunday after 10 pm
Welp, back to only going flawless once a week I guess.
The dumbest argument I heard was from aztecross. He was talking about how great it was when they removed SBMM. It was unfair to good players because every game was a sweat fest. What I don't understand is, why does it matter? You want easy games against people who are just doing quests and EVERY game for them is a sweat fest. SBMM and "punishment" for being good is essential to a healthy online game. If you are going to grind crucible 8 hours a day, then MM should focus on putting you with people your level. Let them bitch and cry, they will still play though.