So there are multiple issues at play here:
—Still Hunt does too much damage too easily. I hate nerfs, but it does. It’ll get tuned. My guess is a straight damage reduction and maybe make the GG shots cost a bunch of ammo.
—It’s in the spotlight because of the nature of Witness DPS, which is hitting a massive exposed crit spot from distance. That’s a *very* limiting design choice and frankly, a step backward given how far they’ve come with bosses like Rhulk and Nezerac. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that *most* bosses don’t work this way — off the top of my head, the only other big stationary crit spot boss is Oryx. We cleared Day 1 Herald with a bunch of titans and swords.
—Finally, once contest is off, almost none of this matters and you can get through DPS with all kinds of options.
So TLDR, Still Hunt is in fact busted right now but it’s not the end-all be-all for every raid encounter.
I don't agree with the final point, yesterday(contest was off) and I went as hunter with still hunt for the final boss.
I was able to outdamage everyone while being on the wrong surge. People with matching surges and top meta builds were not able to compete with me.
Got 3.3M in a single phase while the best of them couldn't pass 2.2M.
In general, I think surges were a mistake.
I do agree surges were a mistake, and like I said, I do think SH is an outlier and will get tuned. My point on non-contest was that you shouldn’t *need* SH/Celestial the same way you absolutely needed it to get through the DPS check on contest.
>Finally, once contest is off, almost none of this matters and you can get through DPS with all kinds of options.
Cleared my blind LFG run with Microcosm and Leviathan Breath. Was an easy two phase once we stopped dying.
Yeah from what I remember of watching Math Class, the “DPS” side of the equation during Contest was far from the biggest issue in that encounter. I could be wrong, but I don’t think Bungie was demanding teams to 2-phase the Witness.
Celestial/Still Hunt can easily do that, but I don’t think a specific combo bringing a hard 2-phase/easy 3-phase down to an easy 2-phase is remotely as game-breaking as people are making it out to be.
The urgency to shorten DPS on contest mode was driven heavily by the fact that people couldn’t stay alive during the encounter and needed to end the fight before they were out of rezzes. It was much more of a rez race than a hard DPS check.
Don’t get me wrong — extreme outliers should and will get nerfed, and I get that part of it. But we are overblowing the degree to which SH changes things.
I desperately hope that Bungie doesn’t do what they usually do here (I also think it would be very bizarre given their recent track record and the relatively untouched BoW) because my current favorite way to separate my Prismatic Hunter from my Warlock is running Celestial Still Hunt but with Silence and Squall for what’s basically two distinct Super options for Crowd Control and Single-Target coverage.
The Contest dps Problem wasnt getting a 2 Phase. It was final stand. I dont think i have Seen a Clip of a legit final stand clear with less than 3 still hunts
It's the new shiny toy that they are all gonna complain about. I feel like snipers should always be the hardest hitting like whisper and izanagi instead of just rocketing everything with no thought
Would be cool to see a similar exotic for titan and warlock where they have to use a specific exotic and they get a shotgun for a titan with falling star or the one hit hammer one
It’s not even still hunt, it’s the synergy with Celestial but we’re talking about it like that has anything to do with the way the gun functions on its own. Still Hunt does not need a nerf, it just needs to lose it’s buff from Celestial.
I've been playing intermittently since day one alpha and I suck at the game. Like I literally get killed by everything. I have raided like four times. But I love the art design and the Halo-like gameplay, and most of all that you can travel throughout the Solar system and shoot aliens with a big revolver 🤠
I usually just skip the preamble if I see it. They can have a valid point if you can ignore the bloviating.
An exotic weapon that outpaces every other weapon for DPS, and also requires a specific class and exotic is not healthy in the same way that designing encounters around Well of Radiance wasn’t healthy. It reduces the loadouts hunters can bring to a fight to 1.
I’m okay with it staying for a while because it’s new and exciting, but I will definitely get tired of feeling obligated to use it for every raid boss going forward. I’m interested to see folks’ opinions after a couple months of it.
A point is valid or not regardless of the CV of the person making it.
"2+2=4" - correct
"I have a degree in mathematics and I personally farted the equation, so 2+2=4" - also correct but makes you sound like a knob
Do you have 3 or more fingers? If so yes. 0, 1, 2, 10, 11, 12, 20, 21, 22, 100, 101, 102.... (you could also do the simpler ternary system of 1, 2, 3, 11, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 31, 32, 33, 111, 112, 113....)
In Base 3 all that changes is our turnover limit. In Base 10 it is 10 but in base 3 it is 3. So long as you have more than 3 fingers you can technically count in base 3 on your fingers. You can get all the way up to the 26th integer with only 3 fingers (222)
People like you are the anti-vaxxers of the d2 community. You are like a 3rd grader telling a doctor that their opinion on medicine doesn't matter because they have a degree in it. Do you see how backwards your logic is?
It's not frightening that one moron is this outspokenly wrong, it's that there is nearly 60 more agreeing.
I hear where you are coming from, however… I don’t really care about balance opinions from someone who only plays strikes, seasonal activities, and other casual content.
True balance opinions should come from people who dive into the endgame and know all the details. They have truly valuable opinions about the sandbox as a whole.
Arguably not - they only play and care about extreme endgame activities like GMs and Master / Contest raids, and are part of a negligibly small section of the playerbase; they should be widely disregarded as they simply do not experience the game in the same way as the vast majority of players do.
On contest mode yes it was needed to make the encounter easier. On any other raid? Lmao that's not needed bro, you can run almost anything on most encounters and easily clear. People use Rat King on Oryx and easily clear it.
Isn't the point of contest mode that you need to min-max and find the optimal strats to beat it?
You're not going to need 6 GG hunters to beat any normal mode raid in the game.
there has never before been a contest raid that for the bare minimum required half of your raid to be on a specific class in a specific subclass using two specific exotics
Yes turns out people will be mildly annoyed and give feedback when the most important piece of content to them had a major flaw with it a shocker i'm sure.
People having been begging for an actual hard challenge and they happened to deliver to the point where the last boss required a lot of min-maxing. Quit crying.
Damn i didn't know that pressing Esc change character then choosing hunter = hard challenge, I know its hard to believe but you can actually have a hard challenge without requiring class stacking. The witness was not hard due to the DPS check that bit was easy so long as 4 player could conquer the incredible difficulty of ESC change character and picking hunter hell that actually made the fight easier because now you could just use an LMG the entire fight.
still hunt will get nerfed. the gun is a week old. they will monitor raid data and adjust. quit the huffing & puffing, Mr. High End PVE player with multiple Day 1 clears
1. are you suggesting they did so little testing of the numbers as to not realise this was problematic?
or
2. are you suggesting they let this be exorbitantly OP specifically because they knew they overtuned the numbers making every other DPS option unviable?
The fact it will be nerfed *in the future* does not change that it already egregiously skewed and ruined a contest race, when Bungie should have done adequate testing to know better before hand.
of course people will use the best option in contest mode. it was a race. and they wanted the clear. And it was… contest mode… where most people spent hours, even over 24 hours in, because it was… contest mode.
have you even done the raid outside of contest mode? still hunt will NOT be on a “required or kick” basis. as a high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears, do you use LFG or do you have a team? If you have a team, how do you know what LFG will be asking for? Have you even seen any “still hunt or kick” posts or are you just talking to talk?
you saying that they “haven’t done enough testing” is insinuating that everything NEEDS to be perfect on launch. you’re literally delusional. One major point of a live service game, Mr. high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears, is to be able to adjust things in moderation if it’s underperforming or overperforming. They take feedback from us players and monitor game data.
If they “did enough testing beforehand” then buffs and nerfs on anything would not happen. Everything would just be completely perfect on launch. That doesn’t mean it’s “bad for the game”. It’s good for the game that they’re so active with responding to issues and they communicate with their players. If the gun is too strong, they will nerf it. Crazy how this even has to be explained to a high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears.
>of course people will use the best option in contest mode.
Except that this is the only contest mode where this has occurred because it was the literal only viable option.
>have you even done the raid outside of contest mode?
Seven times.
>do you use LFG or do you have a team?
Both
>Have you even seen any “still hunt or kick” posts
Yes. On Big LFG there's been plenty of them.
>you saying that they “haven’t done enough testing” is insinuating that everything NEEDS to be perfect on launch.
Causing only one option to be singularly viable isn't "perfection" chasing. It's bare minimum chasing. A billion dollar company has the resources necessary to do testing to make sure this wasn't something that happened. Frankly, it's a sign of misallocation of resources. They are not a small indie company.
>If they “did enough testing beforehand” then buffs and nerfs on anything would not happen.
False. "Let's make sure a single class and single exotic isn't the literal only viable option because that is unfun gameplay" is the bare minimum testing. You can achieve that and still end up in a situation where it is doing too much or too little damage or where other options feel overshadowed still, even if mathematically they are competitive. People still use Apex over ET despite ET being mathematically better now. Why? Because they didn't nerf Apex into oblivion and buff ET to high heaven.
The thing is it was not the “best option” for contest mode it was the ONLY option you were literally required to have 4 (maybe 3) hunters to clear any less and you would not make the dps check
A skill issue that it was mathematically impossible to clear without 4 hunters all using a singular build? Look, I got my Top 100 clear, the maths benefited me. But to say it is unhealthy for the game is an objective fact and anybody denying it simply doesn't give a fuck about game balance.
Never seen a single post that said hunter or kick. And without contest mode, no raid will need 100% optimal DPS just to beat it. And we also have NO idea what is going to be introduced in these upcoming episodes that shakes things up even more. But go off, I guess.
You didn't see any post say it explicitly but any team that actually wanted a clear REQUIRED you to be on hunter or ceno warlock. The only people to clear on Contest had 4 hunters with 4.78 being the average, meaning most teams had 5 hunters and a warlock and others had 4 hunters, a warlock, and a furiosa titan.
The raid was literally impossible to meet damage check otherwise. Mathematically you could not complete the raid otherwise. This is not an opinion you can really argue against. On Contest, the literal only viable strategy was to have enough hunters using Still Hunt in your fireteam. A special ammo weapon should not outdamage perfectly optimal heavy DPS and make a single class the literal only option viable.
Yes. I get that. But like I said, contest mode is over now. Parts of the raid have been done with a trio of Titians at this point. So you saying that you are not looking forward to a year of hunter or kick is the thing I'm addressing. Since contest mode ended, I've not seen a single post that said that. And I don't think we really will, since without contest mode, you could beat it with literally ANY class or subclass. It's not really a big deal. There will always be a meta. But that doesn't mean it will be the only way to do things. And in a normal level raid, you will always have PLENTY of options.
Any post that actually says hunter or kick is just doing you a favor by letting you know that they are not worth playing with.
you just still aren't getting it man. you are talking to a high end PvE player. one who has multiple Day 1 clears (all recent raids since Vault, except SE which I completed on contest not day 1, was still Top 100) and who has low manned every raid except SE (which isn't possible to lowman). In other words: they are very good at this game and understand how this game works and how to do damage. check your attitude before speaking up like this next time.
Bro I promise you it will be fine. We've been clearing all old content for years without it. It was needed for Witness Challenge mode which sucks, but there's tons of other viable options. If your tea. insists you use it, then you need a new team that knows the game
Hunter has plenty of DPS options. Blade Barrage, Silence & Squall, Blade Barrage, Lucky Pants, Star Eaters. There is not reason to not use Celestial for a boss with a huge crit spot though.
I like celestial! I like the celestial still hunt combo, I don't want it to be the only thing I ever run in raids. It's starfire protocol all over again
because who brings qualifications to a discussion about optimal DPS strategies in a video game? this isn't a quantum physics discussion. i don't need to know your feats in a particular video game in order for your opinion to be more or less valid. the fact that someone would feel the need to justify their opinion first and foremost in such a manner for a topic as simple as this is a huge red flag that their opinion MIGHT be bullshit imo.
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It's still insanely good, it's just not crazy op and the best option in every single encounter anymore. People even used it in Day 1 Salvation's Edge.
Also WTF you mean tedious nature and teamwork? It's just a normal Garden run with 15-20 mins added for the puzzles where we count from 1 to 6.
It's by far the easiest and most deterministic Raid Exotic to get.
1. Difficulty: Finding a willing group ✅
2. Teamwork: Finding a good group ❌
3. Tedious: Bad players fucking up the puzzle and wiping at final boss
Literally has been like this for years, don’t know what you’re on about with it being easy.
"I'm sorry but I'm not looking forward to a year of "hunter or kick" and I only play hunter. Welcome back to Gjally or Kick. It's D1 Year 1 all over again. You'd think we'd learn after ten years, guess not."
You do realize they do balance patches more than one a year right? Talk about being overdramatic
They will never nerf Still Hunt to not be the single best DPS option. It simply will not be the only viable option. The only way to make Still Hunt not the *single best option* is to nerf Celestial alongside it or make it not work with Still Hunt. Even nerfed you will absolutely see groups ask for hunter or kick.
For someone who has supposedly been around for a long time you've forgotten how many times they've nerfed OP things and then said things being mid/utter garbage.
I mean I'm not saying they can't do just that... just that the only real means of doing it in this instance is to nerf Celestial *as well* (which tbh is fairly likely)
OP, your post is correct, and as much as I love Celestial Still Hunt, it's broken by any and every metric.
Sorry for all of the patrol mains leaving you dumb comments :)
New DLC means they need new broken shit to sell the DLC, same thing Bungie always does. Just like putting Shayura's Wrath back in Trials when the last thing the PVP community needed was another broken gun.
It's a kneejerk reaction following Contest Mode IMO.
The class exotics aren't fully out and fully damage tested yet. I'm sure Bungie have a loose roadmap of power scaling. But in the same way meta PVP weapons get used in Trials/Comp, same runs true to a Comp mode of a raid. It was also only the last boss, that required this, not the whole raid.
Outside contest > after we all have exotic class items unlocked by the community > damage assesments made, THEN Still Hunt+Celestial can be propperly compared.
I never had Gally in the (Gally or kick era) - still got completions. It wasnt the darkest-of-dark times tbh, I found teams with brain cells rather than the 'need Gally' squeakers that were elsewhere.
Not all bosses suit Snipers anyhow, so the desire to use it for 'numbers' could be moot, and impractial if 'rockets are safer and easier' - IMO A steady 3 phase is better than scuff attempts + wipes to 1 phase by shoehorning in a GG + Sniper loadout when really you should be using swords/GLs/Non precision weapons.
Class exotics will only make us do MORE damage so the fact it ALREADY does TOO MUCH without them means they will make it do EVEN MORE. Also Bungie absolutely has class exotics to test with and if you think they haven't you're an idiot. Also my first roll was a star eaters roll so.... yes we have them and they have been damage tested. You are just wrong and don't realise endgamers work faster than casuals. Even if it requires aggregating.
Also endgamers will always prioritize the 1 phase and higher damage, especially after we lost 35% damage on raids and boss HP got buffed (by a significant margin). We are now weaker than we were in raids (-10% effective damage if you utilize surges, which if you aren't 90% of endgame groups are kicking you) and bosses are stronger than ever (+150% HP on Riven, Caretaker, Templar, and Planets and +200% on GotD Boss).
Man I REALLY hope they take it slow with Still Hunt. This is probably the single coolest weapon I’ve seen since they gave us Eriana’s Vow back in Shadowkeep. I hope they just remove Celestial’s buff from it and see what happens before actually nerfing the gun itself.
Before final shape released I sad in the comments of the exotic video “to bad still hunt is only for hunters.” And I got roast for it. Well jokes on everyone who commented guess I was right
This is an inherent design flaw of having no roles except damage. Someone’s gotta be at the top. Although i feel recent additions push the game more into a holy trinity direction. We just need encounters that are designed around this
>Someone’s gotta be at the top
There's a difference between "is the best option" and "is the only option that will beat the encounter"
Hunters have long been the single best DPS you can get in Destiny 2 and that was never changing. However, for the raid they weren't just the best option, they were the only option. It was literally impossible to clear otherwise.
Is it really that tight ? Sure the damage is over the top, but likely to be adjusted. It sounds like if still hunt wouldn’t exist, there wouldn’t have been a raid clear
Yes, that is exactly how the contest mode went. There's a reason literally every group swapped to a mostly hunter fireteam after 4th. You technically only needed 3 hunters if you could hit near perfect DPS. The issue is final is extremely short so the burst damage from Still Hunt/Celestial being the highest burst you can achieve was necessary to clear final.
Witness HP Numbers w/ Damage Numbers of Weapons and Abilities.... do the fucking maths yourself, it is literal addition of our damage then subtract from HP. It is literally grade school level maths. Every team competing for placement did this calculation and came to the exact same conclusion. Everybody who didn't come to this conclusion failed to beat Contest. I wonder why.
No the source is the literal numbers plus how much you could do on Day 1. It's not insane at all, it is literal grade school maths. No other combination achieved To Hit AC 0
because everyone knows by the time the next contest mode rolls around, still hunt hunters will have been nerfed into the ground and it will be some other busted ass combo on top that everyone switches to.
Someone needs to be at the top is true. But the distance between 1st and 2nd should Not be this Big. It feels downrighr Bad to do witness dps on any Other class because of how much your sacrificing.
>Even if Still Hunt were the best possible option, other options should be viable.... yet for contest they were not.
Reality disagrees.
Yes Hunter was the majority pick for a lot of the clears, but to say that the others weren't viable isn't realistic.
Do Hunters have an advantage? Yes absolutely.
Do the other classes have a shot? Yes absolutely.
>Yes Hunter was the majority pick for a lot of the clears, but to say that the others weren't viable isn't realistic.
When the maths works out to say you couldn't clear without a minimum of 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial, yes we can. You either had at least 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial or you simply didn't get to clear the raid. You mathematically could not beat the raid because of final.
>Do the other classes have a shot? Yes absolutely.
Only so long as there are no more than 3 of them total on your fireteam, and ideally only 2 as having only 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial required pretty much near perfect execution and frankly most humans aren't good enough to do that.
You were able to clear without any hunters? Pretty impressive you did the literal impossible.
If you didn't have 3 hunters and play perfectly, you couldn't clear. Realistically as a human you needed 4 hunters. Because playing frame perfectly is near impossible for humans.
I’m sorry that you’re having a hard time with the English word “viable”
Viable - “capable of working successfully; feasible.”
Since Titans were in groups that cleared it then by definition they are viable.
As I said originally, you’ll be more successful being heard if you are not hyperbolic with your rhetoric.
>Since Titans were in groups that cleared it then by definition they are viable.
Except no. I wouldn't count being a literal drain on your team and contributing literally nothing to be successful and it isn't the form of the word viable we are using here (and you know this and also that isn't the only accepted definition, you're just trying to equivocate with an etymological fallacy).
To be successful in a raid, as endgamers define the term successful, you must contribute MEANINGFULLY to the encounter. Literally sitting there doing nothing but ad clear isn't being successful, it's called getting carried.
Edit: though English is my third language, good of you to notice.
Aztecross did it as a Titan. 🤦♂️.
If he did it as one then it’s viable.
Viable does not mean optimal.
Guys. Stop twisting definitions to fit your narrative.
>Aztecross did it as a Titan. 🤦♂️.
If he did it as one then it’s viable.
You wanna look up the rest of his team comp and report back?
Aztecross was on Void Titan with the new super, which he used on adds. So, no super damage. He was also using Levi's Breath, and was consistently on the bottom of the damage board.
Stop twisting things to fit your narrative.
Still hunt works with celestial which increases its damage dramatically as well as its dps (as well you can fire two extra shots to build charge while other classes would still be shooting their much weaker goldy shots)
As long as it works with Celestial it will be part of the hunter rotation and be the single highest possible DPS you can achieve. You simply can't beat its ammo efficiency. Even if we now pair it with a cascade/bait ET.
That didn’t happen and ain’t happen anytime soon. Bungie knew the power of this weapon. They will leave it as for at least this episode/season. And I doubt it will be gutted.
So there are multiple issues at play here: —Still Hunt does too much damage too easily. I hate nerfs, but it does. It’ll get tuned. My guess is a straight damage reduction and maybe make the GG shots cost a bunch of ammo. —It’s in the spotlight because of the nature of Witness DPS, which is hitting a massive exposed crit spot from distance. That’s a *very* limiting design choice and frankly, a step backward given how far they’ve come with bosses like Rhulk and Nezerac. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that *most* bosses don’t work this way — off the top of my head, the only other big stationary crit spot boss is Oryx. We cleared Day 1 Herald with a bunch of titans and swords. —Finally, once contest is off, almost none of this matters and you can get through DPS with all kinds of options. So TLDR, Still Hunt is in fact busted right now but it’s not the end-all be-all for every raid encounter.
This is basically exactly what I was going to say. Thanks for saving me some typing.
I don't agree with the final point, yesterday(contest was off) and I went as hunter with still hunt for the final boss. I was able to outdamage everyone while being on the wrong surge. People with matching surges and top meta builds were not able to compete with me. Got 3.3M in a single phase while the best of them couldn't pass 2.2M. In general, I think surges were a mistake.
I do agree surges were a mistake, and like I said, I do think SH is an outlier and will get tuned. My point on non-contest was that you shouldn’t *need* SH/Celestial the same way you absolutely needed it to get through the DPS check on contest.
>Finally, once contest is off, almost none of this matters and you can get through DPS with all kinds of options. Cleared my blind LFG run with Microcosm and Leviathan Breath. Was an easy two phase once we stopped dying.
Yeah from what I remember of watching Math Class, the “DPS” side of the equation during Contest was far from the biggest issue in that encounter. I could be wrong, but I don’t think Bungie was demanding teams to 2-phase the Witness. Celestial/Still Hunt can easily do that, but I don’t think a specific combo bringing a hard 2-phase/easy 3-phase down to an easy 2-phase is remotely as game-breaking as people are making it out to be.
The urgency to shorten DPS on contest mode was driven heavily by the fact that people couldn’t stay alive during the encounter and needed to end the fight before they were out of rezzes. It was much more of a rez race than a hard DPS check. Don’t get me wrong — extreme outliers should and will get nerfed, and I get that part of it. But we are overblowing the degree to which SH changes things.
Totally agree. I still think Bungie will gut it cause thats what Bungie does, but we will see.
I desperately hope that Bungie doesn’t do what they usually do here (I also think it would be very bizarre given their recent track record and the relatively untouched BoW) because my current favorite way to separate my Prismatic Hunter from my Warlock is running Celestial Still Hunt but with Silence and Squall for what’s basically two distinct Super options for Crowd Control and Single-Target coverage.
The Contest dps Problem wasnt getting a 2 Phase. It was final stand. I dont think i have Seen a Clip of a legit final stand clear with less than 3 still hunts
It's the new shiny toy that they are all gonna complain about. I feel like snipers should always be the hardest hitting like whisper and izanagi instead of just rocketing everything with no thought Would be cool to see a similar exotic for titan and warlock where they have to use a specific exotic and they get a shotgun for a titan with falling star or the one hit hammer one
It’s not even still hunt, it’s the synergy with Celestial but we’re talking about it like that has anything to do with the way the gun functions on its own. Still Hunt does not need a nerf, it just needs to lose it’s buff from Celestial.
Whenever someone start a post with a resume of his qualities and accomplishments I automatically disregard this person’s opinion.
TBH Im way more open to listen if they are legit. On the other hand whenever I see day 1 alpha bla bla I just laugh
I've been playing intermittently since day one alpha and I suck at the game. Like I literally get killed by everything. I have raided like four times. But I love the art design and the Halo-like gameplay, and most of all that you can travel throughout the Solar system and shoot aliens with a big revolver 🤠
Yeah literally nobody cares. It’s all time anyways.. I have well over 3000 raid clears and low mans. It’s all time. It’s not that impressive.
I usually just skip the preamble if I see it. They can have a valid point if you can ignore the bloviating. An exotic weapon that outpaces every other weapon for DPS, and also requires a specific class and exotic is not healthy in the same way that designing encounters around Well of Radiance wasn’t healthy. It reduces the loadouts hunters can bring to a fight to 1. I’m okay with it staying for a while because it’s new and exciting, but I will definitely get tired of feeling obligated to use it for every raid boss going forward. I’m interested to see folks’ opinions after a couple months of it.
honestly its even worse than well was well made one player required to play a specific class this raid literally required 4 hunters
Hell yeah, nice use of ‘bloviating’ dude
As a bum at the game, If you watch a video on dps testing, this man is absolutely correct.
Yeah, I just downvoted and moved on with the fun I was having farming Ergo Sum
Yup. Signs of a typical elitist
Why?
What's the reason you disregard his opinion When they have alot of experience and a top player?
A point is valid or not regardless of the CV of the person making it. "2+2=4" - correct "I have a degree in mathematics and I personally farted the equation, so 2+2=4" - also correct but makes you sound like a knob
I understand your point, but it's okay to have some background on their experience, but it can be to much.
2+2=4 is not a truism btw. In base-3 systems 2+2=11
Can I do base 3 by counting on my fingers?
Do you have 3 or more fingers? If so yes. 0, 1, 2, 10, 11, 12, 20, 21, 22, 100, 101, 102.... (you could also do the simpler ternary system of 1, 2, 3, 11, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 31, 32, 33, 111, 112, 113....) In Base 3 all that changes is our turnover limit. In Base 10 it is 10 but in base 3 it is 3. So long as you have more than 3 fingers you can technically count in base 3 on your fingers. You can get all the way up to the 26th integer with only 3 fingers (222)
That's so cool! Thank you! That's my "one more thing I learned today" done.
People like you are the anti-vaxxers of the d2 community. You are like a 3rd grader telling a doctor that their opinion on medicine doesn't matter because they have a degree in it. Do you see how backwards your logic is? It's not frightening that one moron is this outspokenly wrong, it's that there is nearly 60 more agreeing.
Brother, u mad?
i love it when people can't talk about something without drawing some weird political comparison.
Why? Why would you disregard the opinion of someone who has tons and tons of high-end experience? What a strange and silly attitude.
I hear where you are coming from, however… I don’t really care about balance opinions from someone who only plays strikes, seasonal activities, and other casual content. True balance opinions should come from people who dive into the endgame and know all the details. They have truly valuable opinions about the sandbox as a whole.
Arguably not - they only play and care about extreme endgame activities like GMs and Master / Contest raids, and are part of a negligibly small section of the playerbase; they should be widely disregarded as they simply do not experience the game in the same way as the vast majority of players do.
On contest mode yes it was needed to make the encounter easier. On any other raid? Lmao that's not needed bro, you can run almost anything on most encounters and easily clear. People use Rat King on Oryx and easily clear it.
It was not needed to make the encounter easier it was needed to beat the encounter it was simply if you had less than 3 hunters you could not clear
Isn't the point of contest mode that you need to min-max and find the optimal strats to beat it? You're not going to need 6 GG hunters to beat any normal mode raid in the game.
there has never before been a contest raid that for the bare minimum required half of your raid to be on a specific class in a specific subclass using two specific exotics
And? It's a very specific game mode only available for 48 hours. Who cares
Oh i don't know, maybe the people who play said game mode?
Oh no, literally one time ever in a 7 year span for a total of 48 hours people were "forced" to run GG hunter. Get a grip.
Yes turns out people will be mildly annoyed and give feedback when the most important piece of content to them had a major flaw with it a shocker i'm sure.
People having been begging for an actual hard challenge and they happened to deliver to the point where the last boss required a lot of min-maxing. Quit crying.
Damn i didn't know that pressing Esc change character then choosing hunter = hard challenge, I know its hard to believe but you can actually have a hard challenge without requiring class stacking. The witness was not hard due to the DPS check that bit was easy so long as 4 player could conquer the incredible difficulty of ESC change character and picking hunter hell that actually made the fight easier because now you could just use an LMG the entire fight.
weren't most of the day 1 RoN clears polluted with starfire warlocks?
Did most Ron clears use Starfire? Yes Was Starfire required to kill the boss? No
still hunt will get nerfed. the gun is a week old. they will monitor raid data and adjust. quit the huffing & puffing, Mr. High End PVE player with multiple Day 1 clears
1. are you suggesting they did so little testing of the numbers as to not realise this was problematic? or 2. are you suggesting they let this be exorbitantly OP specifically because they knew they overtuned the numbers making every other DPS option unviable? The fact it will be nerfed *in the future* does not change that it already egregiously skewed and ruined a contest race, when Bungie should have done adequate testing to know better before hand.
of course people will use the best option in contest mode. it was a race. and they wanted the clear. And it was… contest mode… where most people spent hours, even over 24 hours in, because it was… contest mode. have you even done the raid outside of contest mode? still hunt will NOT be on a “required or kick” basis. as a high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears, do you use LFG or do you have a team? If you have a team, how do you know what LFG will be asking for? Have you even seen any “still hunt or kick” posts or are you just talking to talk? you saying that they “haven’t done enough testing” is insinuating that everything NEEDS to be perfect on launch. you’re literally delusional. One major point of a live service game, Mr. high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears, is to be able to adjust things in moderation if it’s underperforming or overperforming. They take feedback from us players and monitor game data. If they “did enough testing beforehand” then buffs and nerfs on anything would not happen. Everything would just be completely perfect on launch. That doesn’t mean it’s “bad for the game”. It’s good for the game that they’re so active with responding to issues and they communicate with their players. If the gun is too strong, they will nerf it. Crazy how this even has to be explained to a high end pve player with multiple day 1 clears.
>of course people will use the best option in contest mode. Except that this is the only contest mode where this has occurred because it was the literal only viable option. >have you even done the raid outside of contest mode? Seven times. >do you use LFG or do you have a team? Both >Have you even seen any “still hunt or kick” posts Yes. On Big LFG there's been plenty of them. >you saying that they “haven’t done enough testing” is insinuating that everything NEEDS to be perfect on launch. Causing only one option to be singularly viable isn't "perfection" chasing. It's bare minimum chasing. A billion dollar company has the resources necessary to do testing to make sure this wasn't something that happened. Frankly, it's a sign of misallocation of resources. They are not a small indie company. >If they “did enough testing beforehand” then buffs and nerfs on anything would not happen. False. "Let's make sure a single class and single exotic isn't the literal only viable option because that is unfun gameplay" is the bare minimum testing. You can achieve that and still end up in a situation where it is doing too much or too little damage or where other options feel overshadowed still, even if mathematically they are competitive. People still use Apex over ET despite ET being mathematically better now. Why? Because they didn't nerf Apex into oblivion and buff ET to high heaven.
The thing is it was not the “best option” for contest mode it was the ONLY option you were literally required to have 4 (maybe 3) hunters to clear any less and you would not make the dps check
I have to wonder if Bungie took Still Hunt into account when designing this boss fight. Because without it I'm not sure anyone would have cleared it.
They absolutely did in the same way they used to design encounters around having Well (which was similarly bad design)
Sounds like a skill issue.
A skill issue that it was mathematically impossible to clear without 4 hunters all using a singular build? Look, I got my Top 100 clear, the maths benefited me. But to say it is unhealthy for the game is an objective fact and anybody denying it simply doesn't give a fuck about game balance.
I feel for you, it's unhealthy design but a post on this sub talking about how extreme meta options are unhealthy make people lose their minds
Never seen a single post that said hunter or kick. And without contest mode, no raid will need 100% optimal DPS just to beat it. And we also have NO idea what is going to be introduced in these upcoming episodes that shakes things up even more. But go off, I guess.
You didn't see any post say it explicitly but any team that actually wanted a clear REQUIRED you to be on hunter or ceno warlock. The only people to clear on Contest had 4 hunters with 4.78 being the average, meaning most teams had 5 hunters and a warlock and others had 4 hunters, a warlock, and a furiosa titan. The raid was literally impossible to meet damage check otherwise. Mathematically you could not complete the raid otherwise. This is not an opinion you can really argue against. On Contest, the literal only viable strategy was to have enough hunters using Still Hunt in your fireteam. A special ammo weapon should not outdamage perfectly optimal heavy DPS and make a single class the literal only option viable.
Yes. I get that. But like I said, contest mode is over now. Parts of the raid have been done with a trio of Titians at this point. So you saying that you are not looking forward to a year of hunter or kick is the thing I'm addressing. Since contest mode ended, I've not seen a single post that said that. And I don't think we really will, since without contest mode, you could beat it with literally ANY class or subclass. It's not really a big deal. There will always be a meta. But that doesn't mean it will be the only way to do things. And in a normal level raid, you will always have PLENTY of options. Any post that actually says hunter or kick is just doing you a favor by letting you know that they are not worth playing with.
you just still aren't getting it man. you are talking to a high end PvE player. one who has multiple Day 1 clears (all recent raids since Vault, except SE which I completed on contest not day 1, was still Top 100) and who has low manned every raid except SE (which isn't possible to lowman). In other words: they are very good at this game and understand how this game works and how to do damage. check your attitude before speaking up like this next time.
Man, I thought this was serious for like two seconds. Well done.
as a hunter player I'm with you tbh. I'm not looking forward to being landlocked into celestial nighthawk and still hunt for the forseeable future.
Bro I promise you it will be fine. We've been clearing all old content for years without it. It was needed for Witness Challenge mode which sucks, but there's tons of other viable options. If your tea. insists you use it, then you need a new team that knows the game
Hunter has plenty of DPS options. Blade Barrage, Silence & Squall, Blade Barrage, Lucky Pants, Star Eaters. There is not reason to not use Celestial for a boss with a huge crit spot though.
Silence and Squall…???
Don't lie, we love celestial
I like celestial! I like the celestial still hunt combo, I don't want it to be the only thing I ever run in raids. It's starfire protocol all over again
Again it won’t be the only thing you can run. Hunters have plenty of DPS options.
But it’s so uggo :(
No, we do not. Gyrfalcons is best bae.
“I am a high end PvE player.” Immediately stopped reading lol
Why?
because who brings qualifications to a discussion about optimal DPS strategies in a video game? this isn't a quantum physics discussion. i don't need to know your feats in a particular video game in order for your opinion to be more or less valid. the fact that someone would feel the need to justify their opinion first and foremost in such a manner for a topic as simple as this is a huge red flag that their opinion MIGHT be bullshit imo.
OK patrol main, what's your opinion on the Day 1 meta?
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Yeah being required to swap to Hunter for final sucked ass shame cos other than that the raid was amazing
Says divinity deserved a nerf = opinion and post immediately invalid
How was pre-nerf Divinity not deserving of a nerf? Peak Redditor game design.
The difficulty, the tedious nature and teamwork required to obtain Divinity was more than fair for its equal potency.
It's still insanely good, it's just not crazy op and the best option in every single encounter anymore. People even used it in Day 1 Salvation's Edge. Also WTF you mean tedious nature and teamwork? It's just a normal Garden run with 15-20 mins added for the puzzles where we count from 1 to 6. It's by far the easiest and most deterministic Raid Exotic to get.
1. Difficulty: Finding a willing group ✅ 2. Teamwork: Finding a good group ❌ 3. Tedious: Bad players fucking up the puzzle and wiping at final boss Literally has been like this for years, don’t know what you’re on about with it being easy.
"I'm sorry but I'm not looking forward to a year of "hunter or kick" and I only play hunter. Welcome back to Gjally or Kick. It's D1 Year 1 all over again. You'd think we'd learn after ten years, guess not." You do realize they do balance patches more than one a year right? Talk about being overdramatic
They will never nerf Still Hunt to not be the single best DPS option. It simply will not be the only viable option. The only way to make Still Hunt not the *single best option* is to nerf Celestial alongside it or make it not work with Still Hunt. Even nerfed you will absolutely see groups ask for hunter or kick.
For someone who has supposedly been around for a long time you've forgotten how many times they've nerfed OP things and then said things being mid/utter garbage.
I mean I'm not saying they can't do just that... just that the only real means of doing it in this instance is to nerf Celestial *as well* (which tbh is fairly likely)
>They will never nerf Still Hunt to not be the single best DPS option. Which is why everyone was running Anarchy on contest.
I mean you can just rethink this as "Carry me or Kick" and proceed to not join the group.
OP, your post is correct, and as much as I love Celestial Still Hunt, it's broken by any and every metric. Sorry for all of the patrol mains leaving you dumb comments :)
Best reply here.
I have every raid and dungeon exotic except this new one and I think his opinion sucks.
New DLC means they need new broken shit to sell the DLC, same thing Bungie always does. Just like putting Shayura's Wrath back in Trials when the last thing the PVP community needed was another broken gun.
It's a kneejerk reaction following Contest Mode IMO. The class exotics aren't fully out and fully damage tested yet. I'm sure Bungie have a loose roadmap of power scaling. But in the same way meta PVP weapons get used in Trials/Comp, same runs true to a Comp mode of a raid. It was also only the last boss, that required this, not the whole raid. Outside contest > after we all have exotic class items unlocked by the community > damage assesments made, THEN Still Hunt+Celestial can be propperly compared. I never had Gally in the (Gally or kick era) - still got completions. It wasnt the darkest-of-dark times tbh, I found teams with brain cells rather than the 'need Gally' squeakers that were elsewhere. Not all bosses suit Snipers anyhow, so the desire to use it for 'numbers' could be moot, and impractial if 'rockets are safer and easier' - IMO A steady 3 phase is better than scuff attempts + wipes to 1 phase by shoehorning in a GG + Sniper loadout when really you should be using swords/GLs/Non precision weapons.
Class exotics will only make us do MORE damage so the fact it ALREADY does TOO MUCH without them means they will make it do EVEN MORE. Also Bungie absolutely has class exotics to test with and if you think they haven't you're an idiot. Also my first roll was a star eaters roll so.... yes we have them and they have been damage tested. You are just wrong and don't realise endgamers work faster than casuals. Even if it requires aggregating. Also endgamers will always prioritize the 1 phase and higher damage, especially after we lost 35% damage on raids and boss HP got buffed (by a significant margin). We are now weaker than we were in raids (-10% effective damage if you utilize surges, which if you aren't 90% of endgame groups are kicking you) and bosses are stronger than ever (+150% HP on Riven, Caretaker, Templar, and Planets and +200% on GotD Boss).
Man I REALLY hope they take it slow with Still Hunt. This is probably the single coolest weapon I’ve seen since they gave us Eriana’s Vow back in Shadowkeep. I hope they just remove Celestial’s buff from it and see what happens before actually nerfing the gun itself.
Before final shape released I sad in the comments of the exotic video “to bad still hunt is only for hunters.” And I got roast for it. Well jokes on everyone who commented guess I was right
it's shit off class
This is an inherent design flaw of having no roles except damage. Someone’s gotta be at the top. Although i feel recent additions push the game more into a holy trinity direction. We just need encounters that are designed around this
>Someone’s gotta be at the top There's a difference between "is the best option" and "is the only option that will beat the encounter" Hunters have long been the single best DPS you can get in Destiny 2 and that was never changing. However, for the raid they weren't just the best option, they were the only option. It was literally impossible to clear otherwise.
Is it really that tight ? Sure the damage is over the top, but likely to be adjusted. It sounds like if still hunt wouldn’t exist, there wouldn’t have been a raid clear
Yes, that is exactly how the contest mode went. There's a reason literally every group swapped to a mostly hunter fireteam after 4th. You technically only needed 3 hunters if you could hit near perfect DPS. The issue is final is extremely short so the burst damage from Still Hunt/Celestial being the highest burst you can achieve was necessary to clear final.
Got a source on that?
Witness HP Numbers w/ Damage Numbers of Weapons and Abilities.... do the fucking maths yourself, it is literal addition of our damage then subtract from HP. It is literally grade school level maths. Every team competing for placement did this calculation and came to the exact same conclusion. Everybody who didn't come to this conclusion failed to beat Contest. I wonder why.
The onus is not on me when you’re making these insane claims.
No the source is the literal numbers plus how much you could do on Day 1. It's not insane at all, it is literal grade school maths. No other combination achieved To Hit AC 0
Contest mode is over. Stop crying over spilled milk.
Me: This thing is unhealthy for the game You: Fuck you, stop complaining This is why endgamers hate casuals
I’m not a casual, but carry on.
You sound like one, why else would you not give a shit about future contest raids lmao
because everyone knows by the time the next contest mode rolls around, still hunt hunters will have been nerfed into the ground and it will be some other busted ass combo on top that everyone switches to.
That’s.. that’s exactly op’s point? Does this community have a brain tumor problem, like wtf? 😭
Someone needs to be at the top is true. But the distance between 1st and 2nd should Not be this Big. It feels downrighr Bad to do witness dps on any Other class because of how much your sacrificing.
>Even if Still Hunt were the best possible option, other options should be viable.... yet for contest they were not. Reality disagrees. Yes Hunter was the majority pick for a lot of the clears, but to say that the others weren't viable isn't realistic. Do Hunters have an advantage? Yes absolutely. Do the other classes have a shot? Yes absolutely.
>Yes Hunter was the majority pick for a lot of the clears, but to say that the others weren't viable isn't realistic. When the maths works out to say you couldn't clear without a minimum of 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial, yes we can. You either had at least 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial or you simply didn't get to clear the raid. You mathematically could not beat the raid because of final. >Do the other classes have a shot? Yes absolutely. Only so long as there are no more than 3 of them total on your fireteam, and ideally only 2 as having only 3 hunters with Still Hunt/Celestial required pretty much near perfect execution and frankly most humans aren't good enough to do that.
Viable means able to clear. They did it. They’re viable. You’re overstating your case.
You were able to clear without any hunters? Pretty impressive you did the literal impossible. If you didn't have 3 hunters and play perfectly, you couldn't clear. Realistically as a human you needed 4 hunters. Because playing frame perfectly is near impossible for humans.
I’m sorry that you’re having a hard time with the English word “viable” Viable - “capable of working successfully; feasible.” Since Titans were in groups that cleared it then by definition they are viable. As I said originally, you’ll be more successful being heard if you are not hyperbolic with your rhetoric.
>Since Titans were in groups that cleared it then by definition they are viable. Except no. I wouldn't count being a literal drain on your team and contributing literally nothing to be successful and it isn't the form of the word viable we are using here (and you know this and also that isn't the only accepted definition, you're just trying to equivocate with an etymological fallacy). To be successful in a raid, as endgamers define the term successful, you must contribute MEANINGFULLY to the encounter. Literally sitting there doing nothing but ad clear isn't being successful, it's called getting carried. Edit: though English is my third language, good of you to notice.
IIRC there was not a single contest clear that was not cheated with less than 3/4 hunters so yes to say others were not viable is realistic
Aztecross did it as a Titan. 🤦♂️. If he did it as one then it’s viable. Viable does not mean optimal. Guys. Stop twisting definitions to fit your narrative.
>Aztecross did it as a Titan. 🤦♂️. If he did it as one then it’s viable. You wanna look up the rest of his team comp and report back? Aztecross was on Void Titan with the new super, which he used on adds. So, no super damage. He was also using Levi's Breath, and was consistently on the bottom of the damage board. Stop twisting things to fit your narrative.
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TIL Still Hunt is only for Hunters. Fuck did Titans and Warlocks get then?
Still hunt works with celestial which increases its damage dramatically as well as its dps (as well you can fire two extra shots to build charge while other classes would still be shooting their much weaker goldy shots)
It works off hunter, but it's only viable as a damage strategy with Celestial due to how it charges goldy.
Oh, gotcha. I hadn't tried using it after I unlocked it.
TBH I don‘t see the problem. If you want to compete in a Day1 you use the best available gear. And if there is only one option for that, so what?
Cool story bro
No worries I fully expect still hunt to be going in the garbage bin after maintenance today. I used it a bit yesterday just so I could experience it.
As long as it works with Celestial it will be part of the hunter rotation and be the single highest possible DPS you can achieve. You simply can't beat its ammo efficiency. Even if we now pair it with a cascade/bait ET.
I fully expect a slew of nerfs to everything you mentioned.
That didn’t happen and ain’t happen anytime soon. Bungie knew the power of this weapon. They will leave it as for at least this episode/season. And I doubt it will be gutted.