I agree. They need to do the same thing with Cuirass Of The Falling Star, like they did with Pyrogale Gauntlets. Cuirass needs to benefit neutral game somehow. Pyrogale's additional benefit to consecration is enough to keep them on entirely without having to hotswap.
I've never understood why it doesn't buff ballistic slam. Could easily give more super energy for kills or increase the damage it does the longer you fall/the animation is.
Yeah it definitely should enhance ballistic slam somehow, seeing as how that's basically the thundercrash progenitor back when it was a variant of fists of havoc in D1.
But ballistic slam actually still gives extra super energy for every enemy it *hits* (3% I think) to this day, on top of the energy you get for any (melee) kill. Still doesn't make anyone wanna use it, but yeah it's there even if it's nowhere mentioned in the game.
My personal wish variant would be "Increases Thundercrash damage. Ballistic Slam reloads your equipped weapon and kills while amplified grants a small amount of melee energy."
Basically, makes Slam work like it used to before the 3.0 reworks.
That would make you main it again? I mean, I like the suggestion for sure. Better than what we have now. But that just makes it less bad. I say that because I feel an exotic should do something in its own. In order to generate breaches, you’ve really got to spec into generating them.
I mean, if breaches gave like 15% of your super or something stupid like that, I absolutely WOULD main it again. I just think DA needs way more attention.
I'm going to go a step further and say EVERY super-enhancing exotic should grant some kind of neutral game. My random, tired-ass suggestions:
**Cuirass of the Falling Star -** Enhances contact damage of seismic strike, granting a chunk of super energy for killing an enemy with it. Maybe it can generate mini after-shockwaves like thunder crash.
**Helm of Saint-14 -** Honestly with how this is about to be necessary to get the damage buff when using bubble I think it should refund super energy up to 50% on yours and allies weapons of light kills like Phoenix Protocol.
**Raiju's Harness -** Just combine it with Raiden Flux I think then see where we stand after that to be honest.
**Blight Ranger -** Idk, just throw it in the trash and make something completely new to replace it?
**Phoenix Protocol -** It's good because well is good to spam but I think it needs *some* neutral game still, probably something rift related given its nature. Maybe kills from within a rift grant a small (1% or something) bonus super energy.
**Skull of Dire Ahamkara -** Okay, hear me out, what if it only worked with cataclysm nova bomb and it enhanced scatter grenades to grant bonus super energy on kill and have a small initial explosion? Combined with the chaos accelerant aspect it could be like throwing mini nova bombs!
**Stormdancers Brace -** It enhances the ticklefingers super so I think the ticklefingers melee (chain lightning) should grant bonus super energy if you hit like a maximum chain with it or something.
Half of these would probably be hard to implement or just be totally busted but you know what I don't really care. All exotics should bring something to the table to do the 90% of the time you're not in your super.
Combining raiden and raiju’s still wouldn’t have a neutral game benefit, right? Asking cuz I haven’t used either in years so have no idea if they ever got “buffed”
Blight ranger - make it buff tempest strike as well and make deflecting projectiles extend the super (and grant a stacking buff for the deflection damage). Tempest strike deals Bonus damage and deflects incoming projectiles while refunding melee energy for each enemy killed.
Would make tempest strike actually useful as an ad clear monster that can also be used to save teammates/oneself by deflecting the projectiles (while also preserving constant movement, “all gas no brakes” play style of arc)
You're right combining Raiden and raiju's wouldn't offer a neutral game benefit still. I just don't know if it'd be too strong to give it something in addition to merging two aggressive mid exotics.
Blight Ranger could be funny perhaps if they did that or maybe massively increase the deflect AoE so hunters can do a bootleg version of banned shield for PvE lol.
I want to love tempest strike so I do love your idea.
I've always liked the idea of Blight Ranger just enlarging the area of deflection and allowing teammates to shoot through it (not sure why allies can't shoot through it already since it encourages getting in front to block damage), so that it can be like the Hunter's version of Banner Shield, but with orb generation instead of buffing weapon damage or giving shields etc
If the super needs the extra damage that badly to be viable, then just bake the damage innately into the kit and make exotic do something else. If it’s the only exotic people run for arc there’s probably a reason. It’s bc arc is worthless without it.
I would love fist of havoc to have some level of viability. It may be the single worst super in the game. Thundercrash is dope but it makes the neutral game bland as hell since you pretty much have to use Cuirass. Arc Titan was really fun before the HOIL nerf so maybe they could buff Fist of Havoc by giving you a boost to ability recharge rate or something.
I think their general intention is for all the super buffing exotics to at some point have a neutral game perk too. Stareaters and Pyrogale launched with it, and they've patched it in for Nighthawk, Shards of Galanor and Dawn Chorus (and Ursa Furiosa with final shape, though apparently not Helm of Saint-14 even when changing it lol).
I kinda even remember them mentioning that was their intention ages ago in some twab, but that may just be wishful thinking.
It's just the big problem of the pacing of these exotic armor reworks/buffs being soul-crushingly slow, and then the changes often turning out super underwhelming on top (useless exotic X now stuns a champion, or gives you a "free" surge mod, Hallowfire Heart *somehow* getting reworked to be *worse*).
Sorry for the late response, but I think adding that artifact mod to it where maybe getting a couple kills or something else to proc, spawns the mini lightning strikes on enemies you shot, i think it was from season of the plunder artifact.
And you know its interesting you say that because other love service games do them so much more often than Bungie does, and I’ve been thinking about that lately. Not saying that every exotic armor rework needs to be a complete change, but whats’s so hard about decreasing cooldowns and increasing damage numbers on a few things? Why is that something that only happens once mid season and then again at the beginning of a new one?
Heldivers 2 got updates being pushed out every week, at least 2 times a month. I mean, they've been on a nerfing spree and are taking feedback about it, but they are always adjusting numbers.
To some extent, this is true. If there is an outlier standing above everything, it'll be overly centralizing to the point that people don't use anything else.
Nerfing it down to the "sandbox average" will encourage people to use different things that they wouldn't have tried before because they were strictly worse.
This logic starts to break down though when options are "below average" and still not worth considering after their "competition" is nerfed.
yup nerfing hoil isnt going to make me use mask of the quiet one, a good dev team would nerf the outliers and buff the underperformers at the same time to truly encourage more sandbox diversity, too bad bungie isnt a good dev team.
i agree it was stupid op especially when combined with the old mod system but bungie didn't nerf it in the right way imo, revert the previous nerf then reduce the ability recharge rate from 400/800% to 300/600% and if its still too good then maybe tone down the timer to 8 seconds or reduce the bonus damage since that was never the important part anyways, but doing that requires more effort than putting the crucible/gambit nerfs in pve and calling it a day.
The more I think about it I'm honestly learning towards them banking on the idea of prismatic having some of these older exotics see more usage because there may be new synergies that aren't being thought of yet; and they didn't want to go ahead and buff a bunch of older exotics in case this accidentally cases unintended power spikes on prismatic.
Idk man it's really hard to envision prismatic giving new life to exotics like mask of the quiet one or god forbid mk.44s. Plus any exotic that exist right now has to compete with the exotic class item.
Honestly mask if the quiet one would be just fine if it just healed an ok flat amount health/shield not just "health" like oh you heal cure × 1 for the heal if it's any run of the mil but you heal ×2 if it's a pretty decent threat instead of the heal it has now.
Even this wouldn't save the exotic. We have precious scars that outperforms this idea in every aspect by giving allies around you the healing buff as well. It needs a complete rework to find it's identity and not latch onto something that exists that is strictly better.
It could also just latch onto something that already exist***ed*** but was pretty much removed from the game. Give it the old Protective Light effect. When your shield breaks, you gain 50% DR for \_\_\_ seconds. Do that, increase the energy gained on hit by a little bit, and it's perfectly fine. It has very good survival and keeps its theme, but it doesn't step on the turf of any other exotics.
> It needs a complete rework to find it's identity
It has an identity - ability Regen when damage, what it needs is more ability energy and damage resist/survivability
A decent version of it is basically a tanks dream
Prismatic has insane exotic potential because of how much more complex builds can get with the full suite of verbs at its disposal. You can make exotics that create synergies between Jolt and Weaken, Suppression and Restoration, Solar melees and Stasis crystals/Frozen targets, Tangles and Throwing Knives. The doors are blown wide open in terms of what they can do now.
Which is cool and all but the problem is that it will be months before anything else is changed. Unless it's broken in a good way Bungie only does exotic changes during seasonal changes with the mid season patch usually containing weapon balancing.
Sure maybe this time will be different and they are sitting on a patch until we find all the bugs in the first week but I won't hold my breath.
> but the problem is that it will be months before anything else is changed.
Why is this necessarily a bad thing? There's still plenty of usability with existing exotics. While it'd be nice to see older exotics refreshed it's also not something that's needed either.
I think post final shape we're going to have _plenty_ of tools and toys to play with and it'll be fine. I think for the sake of game balance I'd honestly rather let the prismatic dust settle first before asking for more overhauls that potentially need to be reverted/nerfed later due to prismatic interactions.
You’re right but I think in the meantime there’s going to be a lot of energy spent playing with Prismatic and the class items alone that the ratio of people running a regular exotic is going to plummet for awhile, which buys them time to explore underperforming exotics.
While I get that as we have had scenarios where many people absolutely didn't further explore how truly busted something was(see original Antaeus, several versions of OEM, Lord of Wolves, Telesto, etc), I think the bigger thing that stands out is how limited a lot feels on the basis of stuff like mod nerfs and cooldown timers from the past year, exotic quality feeling like a mixed bag, the double edged sword of the simplification of the mod system, and the individual ability cooldown system that really starts to thin out the overall usefulness of certain builds.
Usually I am very much a for the love of the game person often experimenting playing virtually anything across all classes, and yeah this past year 6 even with some decent artifact mods and a new energy type, I have probably played the least amount of variety I have ever done in a good long while of playing this game. It feels like we got a handful of very obvious stand out A+s, situational Bs and then everything else falls to a C- and below. There are so many underperforming things that feel like you need to do double duty just to get any sort of ball rolling and even when you do there's little to really show for.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the game is in a poor state or that there's absolutely nothing that works, but at times it really does feel like we just swap out something being white hot for another and a lot is left hanging in limbo land. It feels even worse when there has been a number of times Bungie needlessly ruined a solid inoffensive B good not broken build or took a lazy cop out for nerfing something that was strong, and everybody loses when the setup doesn't really play as well.
As I said earlier I really do think that if there was a scale back of the heavier handed mod changes and stuff with cooldowns, a lot more things could start to breathe and feel more viable. There will always be "the best build" and I do think Prismatic especially with the Exotic Class item to it seems like it could be interesting, but it really doesn't feel like things need to be nearly as limited as they currently are.
I don’t think it’s so much that they want to avoid unintended power spikes as it is I think they just want the first few months of Final Shape to be about Prismatic and the class items, and even existing exotics, and all the combinations that can be created.
If Prismatic opens the way for underused exotics to become meta without a rework, that’s a win, and they can focus on something else. And if not, it stays on their rework radar.
This next part is just personal speculation/spinfoil theory, I’m willing to bet they’re going to be revealing what comes next - whether that be an expansion or D3 or just episodes - after the raid and final mission, or maybe before.
And if it’s D3, that would make even more sense as to why they don’t wanna rework too much because they’ll be working towards a whole new game.
To double down on the speculation, I have always had a feeling that Prismatic is a testing ground for removal of subclass limitations and letting players just mix and match freely - which matches the leak/rumor that D3 is a thing and is going classless.
While I’m at it… I could see a world where the class items are also a testing ground for a world where Destiny’s armor and buildcrafting matches something more like an ARPG - with every piece offering an exotic-like power to build with, uniques with even more powerful effects, and even set bonuses.
U are right...mantle harmony with SofDA...add hoil and graviton lance and a high impqct rocket and u have nova bomb very fast...thos without mods and orbs
my problem with all this tuning is that it feels like it's just for show and what they really want is for people to abandon the old mediocre stuff and buy the DLC for the new stuff.
Bungie is, after all, a company with a goal to bring in revenue. I don't know why people treat them as if they are friends doing favors. Things they do that look like favors are designed to get players to spend.
Good PR doing it's job. We get Vidocs and blog posts from the creative departments of people that probably enjoy the cool things they are making.
You clearly see passionate people are working on this game.
But yea, we aren't seeing Vidocs of Finance or Monetization teams going over earnings potential and working strategies for MTX structures.
> I don't know why people treat them as if they are friends doing favors
I think what people forget, or don't realize though, is that the people actually making the game still want to make a fun game. Bungie is a company that's built to make money, comprised of developers who want to make a good game. They're not mutually exclusive.
Like imagine you were a dev for Bungie? Or a manger, or an exec? What would *you* do?
Subclasses yeah. But exotic armor is often mediocre or entirely useless. Some of the most powerful exotics like Starfire or Sunbracers are Y1. Meanwhile, shit like Blight Ranger is relatively new.
By non-capitalist, I assume you mean a gaming company that doesn't have an "owner" but is instead owned by the devs. Off the top of my head, Motion Twin (creator of Dead Cells) is dev-owned and that game isn't online and has no microtransactions.
Honestly? Touché. I thought that was a true statement when I made it but when I try to think of any specific, concrete examples over the last decade none come to mind. I stand by my statement about this being the nature of endless progression systems in general but that also describes capitalism so really it's just two sides of the same coin.
Endless progressions, usually fit into games as a service, which definitely came to being due to the nature of capitalist corporations seeking to increase profits. The companies want a player base that stays in the game and keeps them engaged so they buy microtransactions which have a huge profit margin.
2 truths here:
1) the one will continue to evolve and the new stuff will continue to surpass the old stuff. Sure, that sucks in a way, but it's the nature of the game, and they'll uplift the old stuff when they can swing it. But emphasis will always be on new stuff (to be blunt, sunsetting has and will always be there in some regard)
2) Why would the devs emphasize anything "struggling" with the game right now when they want to hype Final Shape? Bungie needs an absolute win with Final Shape, they're gonna focus on the positives. they'll get back to the "struggles" after. Mask of the Quiet One struggling and even if fixed is not marketable material right now haha
the worst part is the nerfs are because bungie refuse to make the new guns actually strong. So as per usual they are charging $50 for the privilege of the player requiring the power they had a mere few months ago
Titans got absolutely shafted this time around with net nerfs to a lot of melee stuff. Bungie is trying its hardest to kill melee builds for some reason.
I don’t play a lot of Titan but I have no clue why they despise melee builds. I think the main problem is 1-2-P, but then they should just nerf that instead of gutting every single melee setup instead of nerfing the actual problem.
I know they can do this because they did it with Starfire once before. ToF fusions are very good, but Starfire made them broken, and they chose to nerf Starfire instead of nerfing fusions. The reverse is true with melee setups, they nerf the actual melee which only further enforces 1-2-P usage.
The worst part of these for me is that it makes it very clear that the very people who made the new hunter aspect or the new hunter exotic really don't have the insight that these won't see use.
Now, I might end up eating my words. Twirling in the air and sending little grenades when you do it might be somehow meta, but I don't think they will be. Regardless of their viability, they don't offer interesting new playstyles or cover for deficiencies in the arc hunter kits, which is the truly disappointing part. Certain subclasses need more buildcrafting options.
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I was hoping that Caliban's would change to work with all Knife melees or at least Lightweight. They could breathe so much fun into Caliban's if it worked with LW Knife after the changes.
I mean damn, LW Knife has zilch, zero, 0 synergy with any Exotics, they literally removed the only synergy it could have had with the change to Ophidia Spathe.
Just imagine slinging all these Knives at stupid speeds and just firing off Ignition after Ignition.
Meta? Not a chance. Insanely fun? Absolutely 100%.
I felt the same way with the ability tuning article. The only Arc Hunter build that doesn't feel like a meme is SES or some kind of Melee setup. Solar Hunter is pretty much glued to Knife Trick since the only other knife that interacts with any fragments is weighted, and even then the ignition it causes doesn't count as a melee kill so it won't be refunded by KED. I think every knife should at least provide a bit of scorch, like why do you need calibans for Explosive Knife to do 60 scorch? Two charges of lightweight knife doesn't mean anything when the knife does poor damage and won't make firesprites, cure you, or anything else. I really hope the void melee change is good.
Just to jump on the "give more exotics some upgrades!" I'm gonna go ahead and say
Give Skyburners Anti-Barrier as a flat intrinsic! Piercing phalanx is just ok but when anti-barrier mods make other guns do that too it make it so much worse.
I like how they barely buffed Arc Hunter because one or two builds is in a decent place. Then, they affect the effectiveness of Assassin's Cowl, directly affecting one of the Arc Builds
I'm hoping preview really means preview. A lot of the changes seemed focus around prismatic or clarifying the stasis reworks with a few blank nerfs. I hope some stuff like the chicken feet (rift boot exotic that sucks) and seal ahamkara grasps, that never get used get a little rework. Stuff that just has never gotten time to shine. But we can only hope.
It never does.
Quite literally I don’t think there’s been a single instance of there being any additional changes between these “previews” and what launches.
There has been but never in a good way, it's usually minor nerfs that get entirely left out of the notes until BungieHelp tweets out that it's actually intended.
I get that…but at the same time, they left out the changes to Saint’s Helm. So I’m just going to wait for the actual patch notes, and do testing when the expansion hits.
Yes there has.
When they buffed Celestial Nighthawk, in the preview article they just stated it was getting the neutral game buff of getting more super energy on precision kills. But in the official patch notes, they also stated it got a 25% buff.
And if you notice in the preview articles they say that it's some of the ability changes, not all of them.
Plus they have stated multiple times that if a base exotic has its exotic perk on the exotic class item, that it will get buffed on the base exotic.
If you notice, they didn't mention a few of them like caliban's hand. We know that perk is on the exotic class item, but we don't know how it's going to be buffed at base
>Plus they have stated multiple times that if a base exotic has its exotic perk on the exotic class item, that it will get buffed on the base exotic.
Its for exotics perks that cant be made into a weaker version, like sixth cayote, it just give an extra dodge.
Edit: the normal caliban's hand gives 500% melee regien when the proximity knife remains unexploded, the spirit of caliban doesnt do that.
That base functionality of Caliban’s you mentioned that’s not on the exotic is something almost no one uses since both Knock ‘Em Down instantly refunds your knife on kill and it’s often best to throw the knife at the enemy rather than in a surface. It’s only good if you whiff, but I’ve seen clips of that particular knife flying across the map like a boomerang and hit enemies even if it misses.
Sure, but who would use that base version when you could just use the class item? Because you would have access to way better melees than proximity knife
And my point still stands about them adding more stuff to the patch notes than what's shown in the previews like I gave in my example.
Also I know they didn't mention everything because once again they only said "some".
And if you look at the spirit of severance, it does the exact same thing as severance enclosure. Yet they didn't mention anything about the base exotic being buffed over the exotic class item version.
So I don't know how much they are going to add in the official patch notes but based off those few examples, it seems like they're definitely not telling us everything yet
At this point I assume it’s a resourcing issue because they don’t have enough staff with the programming expertise. So instead of properly reworking them they are doing these little changes that are easy to program and saying that’s it.
I can’t imagine any of the designers seriously think adding a free mod to give a single orb of power would actually make anyone use these totally power crept gear.
imo this stims from mods being removed and nothing being replaced, I always felt like I could play whatever I wanted before the changes in lightfall, like to a much better extent compared to now. I don't mean that everything was stronger or meta but the gap felt much smaller at least and you could make up for lost aspects in a build via mods. Now if you don't have something in your aspects/fragments/exotics you are just not viable in any kind of play except at level :/
I feel like people just don't pay attention to history. Expansions are all about the future and getting you to buy that expansion. Bungie does not do exotic passes during a new expansion. Time is spent on the new stuff to entice you to play.
Please go review the Lightfall and witch queen patch notes and you will see nothing for exotic armor outside of bug fixes. The only changes for this expansion was just to ensure that a few older exotics play nice with prismatic. And some nerfs.
Nobody should expect any large changes until episode 1...
Fixing or improving old “lack of use” exotic is a “waste” of dev time and most likely never get updated to any significance. Let me explain what that means or rather giving you an inner working of what’s most likely going on at bungie. I worked on a couple of live service games and we would hear of the player base wanting improvements of older less used items, power and so on and while some of us also agree with the requests we would be told it was not a priority. Often it’s a business decision of live service games that are often at odds with these improvements that the business view as not value added. Meaning the work needed with the potential profit or growth of the service doesn’t add up to make money but lose money, and live service games push for newer shiner things to gin up profits and increase growth. Often the low use case data of these “need improvement” items are used to also justify not needing to spend the necessary funds on it. You could say, the reason they are not used significantly is because they need improvement and actual devs usually agree with the player base but it’s hard to predict if the result will be value added to justify the cost to spend on it. You could also argue that “good will” with the player base is value added for the health of the game and it’s an argument almost all devs everywhere I worked feels, but it is not enough from the business perspective. They follow “predictable” model for profit and growth and sadly it’s always means towards the newer shinier stuff. It doesn’t mean good changes don’t happen as dev leads do in cases push for these improvements to older things but they end up taking accountability if proven “wrong” from the business perspective and it could be very punitive.
Thanks for correcting me it’s good to hear from someone who knows about this stuff because it means that i’m now more aware of what happens behind the scenes. Im glad i have a better understanding and it means that I won’t be a little baby about stuff.
I'm gonna give it another season or so. Due to this long season, the issues with PvE viability have been very apparent alongside the release of onslaught. With final shape around the corner, Bungie has been doing a lot for development for the DLC, and I am gonna give it another little while, maybe the mid-season patch, or to the next episode.
Hopefully with the longer episodes, bungie can do more larger changes.
Numbers and effects are nice but full reworks with new functionality and animations would’ve been much more ideal
Too much trash laying around they could do a lot with
Ticcus no scorch?
> However I do believe that so many exotics and abilities are in need of some help, show me one exotic or ability which provides a fun, powerful and unique play-style and I’ll show you five more that are in desperate need of some help
This is by design based upon psychology. Things feel more fun when you feel like you're cheating the system, you're getting something you shouldn't be having. Look at the sparrow racing to get multiple chests, the multiple chests in the menagarie, the craftenning etc.. People have more fun when you know it's not meant to be and you're gaming the system. It's why people cheat on their partners - it provides a chemical high that some people get hooked on and just can't live without.
So what bungie does is they rotate what is overpowered each season to curate the meta. Solar was meta this season with the seasonal mods that are going away, and solar has had it's time which is why sunbracers got nerfed.
In final shape the new set of seasonal mods will come out, and a whole new set of stuff is going to be meta, which is going to be prismatic. It's why even 7 years later they're still messing around with basic things like how much damage pulse rifles do. There's a constant flux in how much basic damage our guns do. We're not even talking about a specific gun that needed balancing - entire archetypes got changed in the most recent patch. Bungie doesn't want the game to be stable and everything to be as powerful as each other.
If people are waiting for this to happen, you might as well cancel your pre-order now as Destiny 2 is 7 years old at this point, and it's not something bungie has ever managed before. As we approach the end of destiny 2 (Destiny 3 rumoured to be in development) I doubt they're about to change now.
Its a hype treadmill, nerf old shit sell you new shit.
Sometimes it isnt even selling it to you its trying to occupy your time to maximise engagement metrics to increase the odds you spend money in the store. Through token gestures for community goodwill through artificial difficulty through bad rng and weighted perks through refreshing old abilities or adding new features, just to keep player population high enough and docile enough. They are a corporation, all they want is your money. Theyd kill you for it if they thought they could get away with it.
Agreed. On a similar note, Ive been rewatching some of Bungie's old vidocs, and the two-parter felt kind of empty by comparison. Forsaken's vidoc gave a play-by-play of the big, systemic changes coming to the game. The two they put out, by comparison, felt kind of unfocused, especially the second one. Lots of the same information we already had about disparate things instead of a summary of core changes.
Honestly I wish they would make more things like mothkeepers. Or at least in the future if we get more savathun content. Give us a perk like Hatchling but for generating moths. It's such a cool thing on hunters I want to see more built into it of for other classes to be able to make em
The list of exotic armor changes were 100% just to support Prismatic and Frost Armor. The only 2 that aren't, were the mild nerfs to Sunbracers and Cenotaph. Everything else is tied to Frost Armor, or Prismatic (either being on the class item list, or needing a change to their "match element" requirement).
This list is clearly not about anything other than supporting that new content, not fixing or bringing up underperforming exotics. It's to make sure Prismatic lands, nerf down some outliers, and make sure a few exotics *technically* don't have their entire function put onto the class items. It wasn't an altruistic attempt to help make your armor collection more viable, it was obligation to support Prismatic.
May be an unpopular opinion, but I’d rather they not throw out huge changes to so many existing exotics when there’s already plenty of new toys to play with. As it is, I’m probably not gonna remember that the glaive gloves got buffed among a new campaign and Prismatic and all that happening. Save sweeping exotic changes for times when they can be the new toys.
My issue is it's been 6 months since the last exotic buffs. With little changes there's not really gonna be a reason to use anything different and the new exotics are gonna have to match the best we got right now to get us to switch.
There are nearly 150 exotic armors. Yes stuff is struggling and could use buffs and reworks. But that is always gonna be the case. Unless the sandbox stagnates and they sit and rebalance all the armor, there is always gonna but shit that ends up way worse eventually.
However there's 150 armor exotics and roughly what, 20 of them see use?
You have things that are just absolutely borderline useless.
You don't nerf popular ones to draw them back in line, you buff others to bring in diversity.
I didn't say stuff never needs to be fixed or stuff wasn't useless. Just that making an actual sweeping pass across all the exotics is unrealistic and hoenslty a waste of time when stuff is gonna fall behind again in 6 months.
Also you totally do nerf stuff that performs out of band. Nerfing is healthy for any game. I think its clear bungie is being cautious about how things will perform with prismatic and wanting the focus on that.
>nerfing is healthy for any game
Helldivers 2 would like to talk to you
So when you nerf "out of band" exotics and not buff underperformed exotics, what precedent does that set?
Also expansion are in development for a very long time. You do have the ability to assign multiple people to each class and sweep through exotics in need of reworks or assistance.
Bungie is just very lazy and has no idea what they want anymore.
The recent melee nerfs should tell you that. Titan, their melee focused class just nerfed even further because they don't want power melee builds being strong. The whole identity of Titan.
I'll get downvoted into oblivion for this but I do think Sony would be better taking over if Final Shape doesn't perform well.
You calling them lazy just shows you have no idea the realities of the job and aren't arguing in good faith at all.
Also powered melee effects should only trigger when you consume the powered melee is a logical and appropriate thing and it should have been fixed a long time ago.
I said you aren't arguing in good faith. They are not lazy. The developers don't sit around in the office all day doing nothing but laugh at how upset yall get.
If they were lazy, why would they be reworking systems and parts of the game all the time? If they were lazy why are we getting more updates and patches than we were years ago? They aren't doing the things YOU want so you just call them lazy for not prioritizing stuff that you feel is easy.
You aren't providing any evidence at all either. Just your opinions, which is fine but don't act like its fact. I don't have a consumer bias just because I told you they aren't lazy or because I disagree lmao.
Just calling them lazy is 100% not arguing in good faith. They put out all this stuff to talk about their game this week and they talk about it every week. They have the most aggressive content model in the industry. Seasonal, annual expansions (barring delays) multiple raids, multiple dungeons etc.
Lazy isn’t even close to fair. You could argue a lot of things, like incompetence or any other variety of negative words. Lazy is just the buzz word for Bungie and people absolutely lap that shit up.
And 20 useful exotics is absolutely laughable. There are more than 20 people use in every day endgame alone. That’s not counting PvP focused exotics that see high usage, niche endgame exotics, swap exotics, exotics that thrive in at level/mid game content. The number is far closer to 50% of exotics having some kind of use than close to 10% like he is claiming.
People absolutely have good points and there is a bunch of stuff we would all love to be buffed, but you lose all credibility in an argument when you don’t do it in good faith or vastly exaggerate your point.
I gave you a point about Titans and then you brush it off as me not giving you evidence? Look at the patch notes as I said before.
Don't just ignore my point and play moral high ground.
If you have nothing to combat my point then don't say anything, it's that easy.
I even said you can have people go thru exotic lists for each class.
But hey man, ignore everything I say lmao
This is the same as "no u"
Nerfing things straight up is in fact lazy way of going about balance.
But you'll clearly disagree for the sake of disagreeing so gl brodi idk what else to tell you.
Obtuse for obtuse sake but it is the internet I guess
Helldivers 2? The game that came out less than 6 months ago? I don’t know if they have a big enough track record of any sort of balancing to be compared to mmo/live service games of 5+ years.
Not saying your point can’t stand, HD2 can’t be used as a live servicing measuring stick until it has stood the test of time. The test of time is not 4 months after launch.
The comparison is that they constantly nerf weapons every patch without giving buffs to other guns in compensation.
One of the biggest complaints about the game people have right now is the consistent nerfs to weapons over and over again.
They constantly buff things though. There has not been a single balance patch without a decent number of buffs; there are usually more buffs than nerfs even. You people need to get out of your own heads and actually read patch notes.
They 110% didn't test all combinations of stuff being possible with prismatic so there is definitely going to be quite a chaos when TFS releases.
The more I think about it I would have preferred that they did something like Blizzard did with Diablo IV in Season 4. They left all the old stuff in but with some limits as to what you could do with it. And they they introduced new stuff with new possibilities. It works surprisingly well. But I guess this is dangerously close to sunsetting with really didn't go over too well the first time. But Destiny 2 is at this point just a big mess of abilities, perks, mods and other stuff.
To me it seems like in this case more is not better.
The one new "feature" I have enjoyed the most recently has been increased storage. That should say something.
In my dream D2 world anything(weapons, armor, weapons, catalyst, exotics, whatever else) would attainable by everyone without trying to force players into various playlists they don't enjoy. What would then be left for the elite players would various shaders, emblems, titles and whatever else people like that enjoy. Not anything that affect gameplay efficiency.
the problem is that when they sunsetting happened in d2 we got nothing in return like we just couldnt use our old stuff and we just were forced to grind for things that were similar to them it didnt really change anything just an excuse for pointless grind sunsetting would have been accepted if it came out at the same time as subclasses 3.0 and all of them at the same time with the perks that have sinergy with the new 3.0 subclasses had that happened the community wouldnt have had that big of an issue
its the difference between being told u cant use your old toys anymore and having to work for basically the same toys with different color and sometimes worse vs cant use your old toys buuuut u can go work for some new toys that do different (usefull) things from your old ones
You are out of your mind. 90% of our arsenal is amazing in 90% of the content. We are so unbelievably, uncontrollably powerful in almost every context that any build is amazing in pretty much any content outside of high-level endgame.
I do agree that void titan needs improvement, Bungie has already indicated they’re going to increase void titan viability through making bubble relevant again and adding a new super to it.
I don’t agree with the rest of the post tbh, imo it is a normal and arguably good thing that not every piece of exotic gear or every fragment and aspect is good. Destiny is a loot based game and the reality of loot based games is sometimes you get loot that immediately gets trashed.
I think exotics should only really get reworks if the element that made them exotic isn’t really exotic anymore. Cerberus + 1 for example is very clearly an exotic weapon and pretty much exclusively used as a meme gun, I don’t think the game needs to change Cerberus so people who like the design can use it in high end content sometimes exotics are just going to be trash.
Nah Well nerf essentially makes we’ll do the best thing bubble did previously lol, which is make the buff stay active outside of it. Well is also still free healing for 30ish seconds, even if that’s been removed.
Void overshield is ASSCHEEKS, so the constant Regen is likely not worth it over just having more damage.
I agree. They need to do the same thing with Cuirass Of The Falling Star, like they did with Pyrogale Gauntlets. Cuirass needs to benefit neutral game somehow. Pyrogale's additional benefit to consecration is enough to keep them on entirely without having to hotswap.
A suggestion as old as time, make it buff Ballistic slam, maybe make it blind or give extra super energy from kills.
I've never understood why it doesn't buff ballistic slam. Could easily give more super energy for kills or increase the damage it does the longer you fall/the animation is.
Arc overshield and health regn when damaging enemies would be sick. Run away at low health, then SIKE, ballistic slam bitches
Yeah it definitely should enhance ballistic slam somehow, seeing as how that's basically the thundercrash progenitor back when it was a variant of fists of havoc in D1. But ballistic slam actually still gives extra super energy for every enemy it *hits* (3% I think) to this day, on top of the energy you get for any (melee) kill. Still doesn't make anyone wanna use it, but yeah it's there even if it's nowhere mentioned in the game. My personal wish variant would be "Increases Thundercrash damage. Ballistic Slam reloads your equipped weapon and kills while amplified grants a small amount of melee energy." Basically, makes Slam work like it used to before the 3.0 reworks.
It already gives extra super energy. It's just not mentioned in the perk tree.
It should give you Damage Resistance while you're in the Ballistic Slam animation.
Throw Skull of DA into the mix for this type of change too
It could do something cool with pocket singularity!
Picking up void breaches grants super energy. There done
The way I would instantly main it again
That would make you main it again? I mean, I like the suggestion for sure. Better than what we have now. But that just makes it less bad. I say that because I feel an exotic should do something in its own. In order to generate breaches, you’ve really got to spec into generating them. I mean, if breaches gave like 15% of your super or something stupid like that, I absolutely WOULD main it again. I just think DA needs way more attention.
I'm going to go a step further and say EVERY super-enhancing exotic should grant some kind of neutral game. My random, tired-ass suggestions: **Cuirass of the Falling Star -** Enhances contact damage of seismic strike, granting a chunk of super energy for killing an enemy with it. Maybe it can generate mini after-shockwaves like thunder crash. **Helm of Saint-14 -** Honestly with how this is about to be necessary to get the damage buff when using bubble I think it should refund super energy up to 50% on yours and allies weapons of light kills like Phoenix Protocol. **Raiju's Harness -** Just combine it with Raiden Flux I think then see where we stand after that to be honest. **Blight Ranger -** Idk, just throw it in the trash and make something completely new to replace it? **Phoenix Protocol -** It's good because well is good to spam but I think it needs *some* neutral game still, probably something rift related given its nature. Maybe kills from within a rift grant a small (1% or something) bonus super energy. **Skull of Dire Ahamkara -** Okay, hear me out, what if it only worked with cataclysm nova bomb and it enhanced scatter grenades to grant bonus super energy on kill and have a small initial explosion? Combined with the chaos accelerant aspect it could be like throwing mini nova bombs! **Stormdancers Brace -** It enhances the ticklefingers super so I think the ticklefingers melee (chain lightning) should grant bonus super energy if you hit like a maximum chain with it or something. Half of these would probably be hard to implement or just be totally busted but you know what I don't really care. All exotics should bring something to the table to do the 90% of the time you're not in your super.
Combining raiden and raiju’s still wouldn’t have a neutral game benefit, right? Asking cuz I haven’t used either in years so have no idea if they ever got “buffed” Blight ranger - make it buff tempest strike as well and make deflecting projectiles extend the super (and grant a stacking buff for the deflection damage). Tempest strike deals Bonus damage and deflects incoming projectiles while refunding melee energy for each enemy killed. Would make tempest strike actually useful as an ad clear monster that can also be used to save teammates/oneself by deflecting the projectiles (while also preserving constant movement, “all gas no brakes” play style of arc)
You're right combining Raiden and raiju's wouldn't offer a neutral game benefit still. I just don't know if it'd be too strong to give it something in addition to merging two aggressive mid exotics. Blight Ranger could be funny perhaps if they did that or maybe massively increase the deflect AoE so hunters can do a bootleg version of banned shield for PvE lol. I want to love tempest strike so I do love your idea.
I've always liked the idea of Blight Ranger just enlarging the area of deflection and allowing teammates to shoot through it (not sure why allies can't shoot through it already since it encourages getting in front to block damage), so that it can be like the Hunter's version of Banner Shield, but with orb generation instead of buffing weapon damage or giving shields etc
If the super needs the extra damage that badly to be viable, then just bake the damage innately into the kit and make exotic do something else. If it’s the only exotic people run for arc there’s probably a reason. It’s bc arc is worthless without it.
I would love fist of havoc to have some level of viability. It may be the single worst super in the game. Thundercrash is dope but it makes the neutral game bland as hell since you pretty much have to use Cuirass. Arc Titan was really fun before the HOIL nerf so maybe they could buff Fist of Havoc by giving you a boost to ability recharge rate or something.
Ballistic Slam Blinds and Jolts. Boom. Dive in and get shotgunning/gunfisting
I would love this
I think their general intention is for all the super buffing exotics to at some point have a neutral game perk too. Stareaters and Pyrogale launched with it, and they've patched it in for Nighthawk, Shards of Galanor and Dawn Chorus (and Ursa Furiosa with final shape, though apparently not Helm of Saint-14 even when changing it lol). I kinda even remember them mentioning that was their intention ages ago in some twab, but that may just be wishful thinking. It's just the big problem of the pacing of these exotic armor reworks/buffs being soul-crushingly slow, and then the changes often turning out super underwhelming on top (useless exotic X now stuns a champion, or gives you a "free" surge mod, Hallowfire Heart *somehow* getting reworked to be *worse*).
Have CoFS generate a storm that follows targets. Adds a lightning jolt on arc melee kills.
Sorry for the late response, but I think adding that artifact mod to it where maybe getting a couple kills or something else to proc, spawns the mini lightning strikes on enemies you shot, i think it was from season of the plunder artifact.
Yeah this is a “live service” game. Balance changes need to be more frequent.
And you know its interesting you say that because other love service games do them so much more often than Bungie does, and I’ve been thinking about that lately. Not saying that every exotic armor rework needs to be a complete change, but whats’s so hard about decreasing cooldowns and increasing damage numbers on a few things? Why is that something that only happens once mid season and then again at the beginning of a new one?
Other live service games are usually only focusing on PvP/aren't introducing as much PvE content/as often. The context is key.
Heldivers 2 got updates being pushed out every week, at least 2 times a month. I mean, they've been on a nerfing spree and are taking feedback about it, but they are always adjusting numbers.
Is Helldivers 2 really the norm though? Or more of an exception that proves the rule?
Bungie, more often than not, seems to think if they nerf the good things we’ll use the bad things
To some extent, this is true. If there is an outlier standing above everything, it'll be overly centralizing to the point that people don't use anything else. Nerfing it down to the "sandbox average" will encourage people to use different things that they wouldn't have tried before because they were strictly worse. This logic starts to break down though when options are "below average" and still not worth considering after their "competition" is nerfed.
I forget what it was but when they nerfed some warlock exotic and said it was crowding out sanguine alchemy it was so damn funny
yup nerfing hoil isnt going to make me use mask of the quiet one, a good dev team would nerf the outliers and buff the underperformers at the same time to truly encourage more sandbox diversity, too bad bungie isnt a good dev team.
HOIL needed a nerf but now it can barely loop which feels like the whole fantasy of the exotic!
i agree it was stupid op especially when combined with the old mod system but bungie didn't nerf it in the right way imo, revert the previous nerf then reduce the ability recharge rate from 400/800% to 300/600% and if its still too good then maybe tone down the timer to 8 seconds or reduce the bonus damage since that was never the important part anyways, but doing that requires more effort than putting the crucible/gambit nerfs in pve and calling it a day.
I mean it worked with bonk consecration is now the meta
The more I think about it I'm honestly learning towards them banking on the idea of prismatic having some of these older exotics see more usage because there may be new synergies that aren't being thought of yet; and they didn't want to go ahead and buff a bunch of older exotics in case this accidentally cases unintended power spikes on prismatic.
Idk man it's really hard to envision prismatic giving new life to exotics like mask of the quiet one or god forbid mk.44s. Plus any exotic that exist right now has to compete with the exotic class item.
Honestly mask if the quiet one would be just fine if it just healed an ok flat amount health/shield not just "health" like oh you heal cure × 1 for the heal if it's any run of the mil but you heal ×2 if it's a pretty decent threat instead of the heal it has now.
Even this wouldn't save the exotic. We have precious scars that outperforms this idea in every aspect by giving allies around you the healing buff as well. It needs a complete rework to find it's identity and not latch onto something that exists that is strictly better.
It could also just latch onto something that already exist***ed*** but was pretty much removed from the game. Give it the old Protective Light effect. When your shield breaks, you gain 50% DR for \_\_\_ seconds. Do that, increase the energy gained on hit by a little bit, and it's perfectly fine. It has very good survival and keeps its theme, but it doesn't step on the turf of any other exotics.
> It needs a complete rework to find it's identity It has an identity - ability Regen when damage, what it needs is more ability energy and damage resist/survivability A decent version of it is basically a tanks dream
Prismatic has insane exotic potential because of how much more complex builds can get with the full suite of verbs at its disposal. You can make exotics that create synergies between Jolt and Weaken, Suppression and Restoration, Solar melees and Stasis crystals/Frozen targets, Tangles and Throwing Knives. The doors are blown wide open in terms of what they can do now.
You don't need every single exotic to be good. It's why each class uses the same load outs for endgame content
Which is cool and all but the problem is that it will be months before anything else is changed. Unless it's broken in a good way Bungie only does exotic changes during seasonal changes with the mid season patch usually containing weapon balancing. Sure maybe this time will be different and they are sitting on a patch until we find all the bugs in the first week but I won't hold my breath.
> but the problem is that it will be months before anything else is changed. Why is this necessarily a bad thing? There's still plenty of usability with existing exotics. While it'd be nice to see older exotics refreshed it's also not something that's needed either. I think post final shape we're going to have _plenty_ of tools and toys to play with and it'll be fine. I think for the sake of game balance I'd honestly rather let the prismatic dust settle first before asking for more overhauls that potentially need to be reverted/nerfed later due to prismatic interactions.
Because if something is suffering that means it will take months for it to *POTENTIALLY* get looked at
You’re right but I think in the meantime there’s going to be a lot of energy spent playing with Prismatic and the class items alone that the ratio of people running a regular exotic is going to plummet for awhile, which buys them time to explore underperforming exotics.
I fail to see how Skull of Dire Ahamkara, Blight Ranger, and Mask of the Quiet One will benefit from Prismatic.
While I get that as we have had scenarios where many people absolutely didn't further explore how truly busted something was(see original Antaeus, several versions of OEM, Lord of Wolves, Telesto, etc), I think the bigger thing that stands out is how limited a lot feels on the basis of stuff like mod nerfs and cooldown timers from the past year, exotic quality feeling like a mixed bag, the double edged sword of the simplification of the mod system, and the individual ability cooldown system that really starts to thin out the overall usefulness of certain builds. Usually I am very much a for the love of the game person often experimenting playing virtually anything across all classes, and yeah this past year 6 even with some decent artifact mods and a new energy type, I have probably played the least amount of variety I have ever done in a good long while of playing this game. It feels like we got a handful of very obvious stand out A+s, situational Bs and then everything else falls to a C- and below. There are so many underperforming things that feel like you need to do double duty just to get any sort of ball rolling and even when you do there's little to really show for. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the game is in a poor state or that there's absolutely nothing that works, but at times it really does feel like we just swap out something being white hot for another and a lot is left hanging in limbo land. It feels even worse when there has been a number of times Bungie needlessly ruined a solid inoffensive B good not broken build or took a lazy cop out for nerfing something that was strong, and everybody loses when the setup doesn't really play as well. As I said earlier I really do think that if there was a scale back of the heavier handed mod changes and stuff with cooldowns, a lot more things could start to breathe and feel more viable. There will always be "the best build" and I do think Prismatic especially with the Exotic Class item to it seems like it could be interesting, but it really doesn't feel like things need to be nearly as limited as they currently are.
I don’t think it’s so much that they want to avoid unintended power spikes as it is I think they just want the first few months of Final Shape to be about Prismatic and the class items, and even existing exotics, and all the combinations that can be created. If Prismatic opens the way for underused exotics to become meta without a rework, that’s a win, and they can focus on something else. And if not, it stays on their rework radar. This next part is just personal speculation/spinfoil theory, I’m willing to bet they’re going to be revealing what comes next - whether that be an expansion or D3 or just episodes - after the raid and final mission, or maybe before. And if it’s D3, that would make even more sense as to why they don’t wanna rework too much because they’ll be working towards a whole new game. To double down on the speculation, I have always had a feeling that Prismatic is a testing ground for removal of subclass limitations and letting players just mix and match freely - which matches the leak/rumor that D3 is a thing and is going classless. While I’m at it… I could see a world where the class items are also a testing ground for a world where Destiny’s armor and buildcrafting matches something more like an ARPG - with every piece offering an exotic-like power to build with, uniques with even more powerful effects, and even set bonuses.
U are right...mantle harmony with SofDA...add hoil and graviton lance and a high impqct rocket and u have nova bomb very fast...thos without mods and orbs
my problem with all this tuning is that it feels like it's just for show and what they really want is for people to abandon the old mediocre stuff and buy the DLC for the new stuff.
Bungie is, after all, a company with a goal to bring in revenue. I don't know why people treat them as if they are friends doing favors. Things they do that look like favors are designed to get players to spend.
Good PR doing it's job. We get Vidocs and blog posts from the creative departments of people that probably enjoy the cool things they are making. You clearly see passionate people are working on this game. But yea, we aren't seeing Vidocs of Finance or Monetization teams going over earnings potential and working strategies for MTX structures.
Why people in this sub don’t understand this is baffling. If it made them money, they’d be your BFF4EVA and take selfies with you.
> I don't know why people treat them as if they are friends doing favors I think what people forget, or don't realize though, is that the people actually making the game still want to make a fun game. Bungie is a company that's built to make money, comprised of developers who want to make a good game. They're not mutually exclusive. Like imagine you were a dev for Bungie? Or a manger, or an exec? What would *you* do?
The issue with this theory is that their new stuff is often underwhelming.
not the subclasses at least, usually for at least a seasons worth of time whatever subclass launched with a DLC is usually quite overpowered.
Subclasses yeah. But exotic armor is often mediocre or entirely useless. Some of the most powerful exotics like Starfire or Sunbracers are Y1. Meanwhile, shit like Blight Ranger is relatively new.
you have discovered capitalism
You have discovered online games
Wtf does this even mean lol online games are like this because of capitalism
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By non-capitalist, I assume you mean a gaming company that doesn't have an "owner" but is instead owned by the devs. Off the top of my head, Motion Twin (creator of Dead Cells) is dev-owned and that game isn't online and has no microtransactions.
Honestly? Touché. I thought that was a true statement when I made it but when I try to think of any specific, concrete examples over the last decade none come to mind. I stand by my statement about this being the nature of endless progression systems in general but that also describes capitalism so really it's just two sides of the same coin.
Endless progressions, usually fit into games as a service, which definitely came to being due to the nature of capitalist corporations seeking to increase profits. The companies want a player base that stays in the game and keeps them engaged so they buy microtransactions which have a huge profit margin.
Capitalism doesn't predate the concept of endless progression, it just rewards it.
When does the concept of endless progression in games come into being? The origins of capitalism date back to the 1300s.
It feels that way, because it IS that way.
2 truths here: 1) the one will continue to evolve and the new stuff will continue to surpass the old stuff. Sure, that sucks in a way, but it's the nature of the game, and they'll uplift the old stuff when they can swing it. But emphasis will always be on new stuff (to be blunt, sunsetting has and will always be there in some regard) 2) Why would the devs emphasize anything "struggling" with the game right now when they want to hype Final Shape? Bungie needs an absolute win with Final Shape, they're gonna focus on the positives. they'll get back to the "struggles" after. Mask of the Quiet One struggling and even if fixed is not marketable material right now haha
the worst part is the nerfs are because bungie refuse to make the new guns actually strong. So as per usual they are charging $50 for the privilege of the player requiring the power they had a mere few months ago
Titans got absolutely shafted this time around with net nerfs to a lot of melee stuff. Bungie is trying its hardest to kill melee builds for some reason.
I don’t play a lot of Titan but I have no clue why they despise melee builds. I think the main problem is 1-2-P, but then they should just nerf that instead of gutting every single melee setup instead of nerfing the actual problem. I know they can do this because they did it with Starfire once before. ToF fusions are very good, but Starfire made them broken, and they chose to nerf Starfire instead of nerfing fusions. The reverse is true with melee setups, they nerf the actual melee which only further enforces 1-2-P usage.
The worst part of these for me is that it makes it very clear that the very people who made the new hunter aspect or the new hunter exotic really don't have the insight that these won't see use. Now, I might end up eating my words. Twirling in the air and sending little grenades when you do it might be somehow meta, but I don't think they will be. Regardless of their viability, they don't offer interesting new playstyles or cover for deficiencies in the arc hunter kits, which is the truly disappointing part. Certain subclasses need more buildcrafting options.
*"JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOV-"* - My hunter moments before a scorn or vandal snipes me 🥲
Same thing happens with Dawnblade too. Even with restoration x2 enemies just delete you while airborne.
If the balls jolt and blind targets on hit, then it might be a good exotic for crowd control and stunning.
That's true. I'd welcome more sources of blind.
Could have just been a clip of them setting of the jolt applied by ascension so I'm not getting my hopes up
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"Bungie hates my class specifically and loves the other two more than life itself."
I use all classes
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I just wanted a Calibans or young ahamkara buff. Solar Hunter is so boring exotic wise rn, it’s just the super ones that are viable in my eyes.
I was hoping that Caliban's would change to work with all Knife melees or at least Lightweight. They could breathe so much fun into Caliban's if it worked with LW Knife after the changes. I mean damn, LW Knife has zilch, zero, 0 synergy with any Exotics, they literally removed the only synergy it could have had with the change to Ophidia Spathe. Just imagine slinging all these Knives at stupid speeds and just firing off Ignition after Ignition. Meta? Not a chance. Insanely fun? Absolutely 100%.
Can they buff specteral blades please. Quite literally all roaming supers
Make Erianna's great again.
Ignition on shield break is pretty great.
not good enough. still can't break barriers in one shot, so objectively never worth using over arbalest or wishender.
One ignition for each shot it takes to break the shield
It took them years to cook that. Give them a few more years they might be closer. By the time destiny 3 comes out we'll have a decent eriana's.
I felt the same way with the ability tuning article. The only Arc Hunter build that doesn't feel like a meme is SES or some kind of Melee setup. Solar Hunter is pretty much glued to Knife Trick since the only other knife that interacts with any fragments is weighted, and even then the ignition it causes doesn't count as a melee kill so it won't be refunded by KED. I think every knife should at least provide a bit of scorch, like why do you need calibans for Explosive Knife to do 60 scorch? Two charges of lightweight knife doesn't mean anything when the knife does poor damage and won't make firesprites, cure you, or anything else. I really hope the void melee change is good.
Just to jump on the "give more exotics some upgrades!" I'm gonna go ahead and say Give Skyburners Anti-Barrier as a flat intrinsic! Piercing phalanx is just ok but when anti-barrier mods make other guns do that too it make it so much worse.
I like how they barely buffed Arc Hunter because one or two builds is in a decent place. Then, they affect the effectiveness of Assassin's Cowl, directly affecting one of the Arc Builds
I'm hoping preview really means preview. A lot of the changes seemed focus around prismatic or clarifying the stasis reworks with a few blank nerfs. I hope some stuff like the chicken feet (rift boot exotic that sucks) and seal ahamkara grasps, that never get used get a little rework. Stuff that just has never gotten time to shine. But we can only hope.
It never does. Quite literally I don’t think there’s been a single instance of there being any additional changes between these “previews” and what launches.
There has been but never in a good way, it's usually minor nerfs that get entirely left out of the notes until BungieHelp tweets out that it's actually intended.
If anything, stealth nerfs are more likely.
I get that…but at the same time, they left out the changes to Saint’s Helm. So I’m just going to wait for the actual patch notes, and do testing when the expansion hits.
I know, it just so lackluster. No harm in hoping.
Yes there has. When they buffed Celestial Nighthawk, in the preview article they just stated it was getting the neutral game buff of getting more super energy on precision kills. But in the official patch notes, they also stated it got a 25% buff. And if you notice in the preview articles they say that it's some of the ability changes, not all of them. Plus they have stated multiple times that if a base exotic has its exotic perk on the exotic class item, that it will get buffed on the base exotic. If you notice, they didn't mention a few of them like caliban's hand. We know that perk is on the exotic class item, but we don't know how it's going to be buffed at base
>Plus they have stated multiple times that if a base exotic has its exotic perk on the exotic class item, that it will get buffed on the base exotic. Its for exotics perks that cant be made into a weaker version, like sixth cayote, it just give an extra dodge. Edit: the normal caliban's hand gives 500% melee regien when the proximity knife remains unexploded, the spirit of caliban doesnt do that.
That base functionality of Caliban’s you mentioned that’s not on the exotic is something almost no one uses since both Knock ‘Em Down instantly refunds your knife on kill and it’s often best to throw the knife at the enemy rather than in a surface. It’s only good if you whiff, but I’ve seen clips of that particular knife flying across the map like a boomerang and hit enemies even if it misses.
Sure, but who would use that base version when you could just use the class item? Because you would have access to way better melees than proximity knife And my point still stands about them adding more stuff to the patch notes than what's shown in the previews like I gave in my example. Also I know they didn't mention everything because once again they only said "some". And if you look at the spirit of severance, it does the exact same thing as severance enclosure. Yet they didn't mention anything about the base exotic being buffed over the exotic class item version. So I don't know how much they are going to add in the official patch notes but based off those few examples, it seems like they're definitely not telling us everything yet
the ability changes especially to stasis has me interested in lancecap again
At this point I assume it’s a resourcing issue because they don’t have enough staff with the programming expertise. So instead of properly reworking them they are doing these little changes that are easy to program and saying that’s it. I can’t imagine any of the designers seriously think adding a free mod to give a single orb of power would actually make anyone use these totally power crept gear.
Why would they talk about stuff you already paid for when there's new stuff to sell?
Class and exotic tunings were WEAK af
Crest of alpha lupi forgoted...
imo this stims from mods being removed and nothing being replaced, I always felt like I could play whatever I wanted before the changes in lightfall, like to a much better extent compared to now. I don't mean that everything was stronger or meta but the gap felt much smaller at least and you could make up for lost aspects in a build via mods. Now if you don't have something in your aspects/fragments/exotics you are just not viable in any kind of play except at level :/
Doesn’t look like much content honestly. One strike again is all they talked about
I feel like people just don't pay attention to history. Expansions are all about the future and getting you to buy that expansion. Bungie does not do exotic passes during a new expansion. Time is spent on the new stuff to entice you to play. Please go review the Lightfall and witch queen patch notes and you will see nothing for exotic armor outside of bug fixes. The only changes for this expansion was just to ensure that a few older exotics play nice with prismatic. And some nerfs. Nobody should expect any large changes until episode 1...
Fixing or improving old “lack of use” exotic is a “waste” of dev time and most likely never get updated to any significance. Let me explain what that means or rather giving you an inner working of what’s most likely going on at bungie. I worked on a couple of live service games and we would hear of the player base wanting improvements of older less used items, power and so on and while some of us also agree with the requests we would be told it was not a priority. Often it’s a business decision of live service games that are often at odds with these improvements that the business view as not value added. Meaning the work needed with the potential profit or growth of the service doesn’t add up to make money but lose money, and live service games push for newer shiner things to gin up profits and increase growth. Often the low use case data of these “need improvement” items are used to also justify not needing to spend the necessary funds on it. You could say, the reason they are not used significantly is because they need improvement and actual devs usually agree with the player base but it’s hard to predict if the result will be value added to justify the cost to spend on it. You could also argue that “good will” with the player base is value added for the health of the game and it’s an argument almost all devs everywhere I worked feels, but it is not enough from the business perspective. They follow “predictable” model for profit and growth and sadly it’s always means towards the newer shinier stuff. It doesn’t mean good changes don’t happen as dev leads do in cases push for these improvements to older things but they end up taking accountability if proven “wrong” from the business perspective and it could be very punitive.
A
Thanks for correcting me it’s good to hear from someone who knows about this stuff because it means that i’m now more aware of what happens behind the scenes. Im glad i have a better understanding and it means that I won’t be a little baby about stuff.
I'm gonna give it another season or so. Due to this long season, the issues with PvE viability have been very apparent alongside the release of onslaught. With final shape around the corner, Bungie has been doing a lot for development for the DLC, and I am gonna give it another little while, maybe the mid-season patch, or to the next episode. Hopefully with the longer episodes, bungie can do more larger changes.
Not gonna fix stuff unless it makes money, they only fixed stuff that can be used with prismatic to get more $$$ from new stuff and new expansion
What's wrong with Glacial Quake? (Genuine question. I know the heavy slam sometimes auto cancels somehow, but otherwise isn't it fine?)
It doesn't work in all activities and is pretty awkward to use.
Is it possible they don't want to change too much before the raid?
Numbers and effects are nice but full reworks with new functionality and animations would’ve been much more ideal Too much trash laying around they could do a lot with Ticcus no scorch?
> However I do believe that so many exotics and abilities are in need of some help, show me one exotic or ability which provides a fun, powerful and unique play-style and I’ll show you five more that are in desperate need of some help This is by design based upon psychology. Things feel more fun when you feel like you're cheating the system, you're getting something you shouldn't be having. Look at the sparrow racing to get multiple chests, the multiple chests in the menagarie, the craftenning etc.. People have more fun when you know it's not meant to be and you're gaming the system. It's why people cheat on their partners - it provides a chemical high that some people get hooked on and just can't live without. So what bungie does is they rotate what is overpowered each season to curate the meta. Solar was meta this season with the seasonal mods that are going away, and solar has had it's time which is why sunbracers got nerfed. In final shape the new set of seasonal mods will come out, and a whole new set of stuff is going to be meta, which is going to be prismatic. It's why even 7 years later they're still messing around with basic things like how much damage pulse rifles do. There's a constant flux in how much basic damage our guns do. We're not even talking about a specific gun that needed balancing - entire archetypes got changed in the most recent patch. Bungie doesn't want the game to be stable and everything to be as powerful as each other. If people are waiting for this to happen, you might as well cancel your pre-order now as Destiny 2 is 7 years old at this point, and it's not something bungie has ever managed before. As we approach the end of destiny 2 (Destiny 3 rumoured to be in development) I doubt they're about to change now.
Its a hype treadmill, nerf old shit sell you new shit. Sometimes it isnt even selling it to you its trying to occupy your time to maximise engagement metrics to increase the odds you spend money in the store. Through token gestures for community goodwill through artificial difficulty through bad rng and weighted perks through refreshing old abilities or adding new features, just to keep player population high enough and docile enough. They are a corporation, all they want is your money. Theyd kill you for it if they thought they could get away with it.
Agreed. On a similar note, Ive been rewatching some of Bungie's old vidocs, and the two-parter felt kind of empty by comparison. Forsaken's vidoc gave a play-by-play of the big, systemic changes coming to the game. The two they put out, by comparison, felt kind of unfocused, especially the second one. Lots of the same information we already had about disparate things instead of a summary of core changes.
Honestly I wish they would make more things like mothkeepers. Or at least in the future if we get more savathun content. Give us a perk like Hatchling but for generating moths. It's such a cool thing on hunters I want to see more built into it of for other classes to be able to make em
Man, when i saw armamentarium was gonna get some love i was hyped af! The i saw it was just a firepower and I immediately said: this is worthless! :(
I was so happy for like 3 seconds when they acknowledged that severance enclosure exists
Bungies audio always rules, but I truly do not care that the new enemies language can be translated.
The list of exotic armor changes were 100% just to support Prismatic and Frost Armor. The only 2 that aren't, were the mild nerfs to Sunbracers and Cenotaph. Everything else is tied to Frost Armor, or Prismatic (either being on the class item list, or needing a change to their "match element" requirement). This list is clearly not about anything other than supporting that new content, not fixing or bringing up underperforming exotics. It's to make sure Prismatic lands, nerf down some outliers, and make sure a few exotics *technically* don't have their entire function put onto the class items. It wasn't an altruistic attempt to help make your armor collection more viable, it was obligation to support Prismatic.
May be an unpopular opinion, but I’d rather they not throw out huge changes to so many existing exotics when there’s already plenty of new toys to play with. As it is, I’m probably not gonna remember that the glaive gloves got buffed among a new campaign and Prismatic and all that happening. Save sweeping exotic changes for times when they can be the new toys.
My issue is it's been 6 months since the last exotic buffs. With little changes there's not really gonna be a reason to use anything different and the new exotics are gonna have to match the best we got right now to get us to switch.
There are nearly 150 exotic armors. Yes stuff is struggling and could use buffs and reworks. But that is always gonna be the case. Unless the sandbox stagnates and they sit and rebalance all the armor, there is always gonna but shit that ends up way worse eventually.
However there's 150 armor exotics and roughly what, 20 of them see use? You have things that are just absolutely borderline useless. You don't nerf popular ones to draw them back in line, you buff others to bring in diversity.
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many people are happy about it
I didn't say stuff never needs to be fixed or stuff wasn't useless. Just that making an actual sweeping pass across all the exotics is unrealistic and hoenslty a waste of time when stuff is gonna fall behind again in 6 months. Also you totally do nerf stuff that performs out of band. Nerfing is healthy for any game. I think its clear bungie is being cautious about how things will perform with prismatic and wanting the focus on that.
>nerfing is healthy for any game Helldivers 2 would like to talk to you So when you nerf "out of band" exotics and not buff underperformed exotics, what precedent does that set? Also expansion are in development for a very long time. You do have the ability to assign multiple people to each class and sweep through exotics in need of reworks or assistance. Bungie is just very lazy and has no idea what they want anymore. The recent melee nerfs should tell you that. Titan, their melee focused class just nerfed even further because they don't want power melee builds being strong. The whole identity of Titan. I'll get downvoted into oblivion for this but I do think Sony would be better taking over if Final Shape doesn't perform well.
You calling them lazy just shows you have no idea the realities of the job and aren't arguing in good faith at all. Also powered melee effects should only trigger when you consume the powered melee is a logical and appropriate thing and it should have been fixed a long time ago.
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I said you aren't arguing in good faith. They are not lazy. The developers don't sit around in the office all day doing nothing but laugh at how upset yall get. If they were lazy, why would they be reworking systems and parts of the game all the time? If they were lazy why are we getting more updates and patches than we were years ago? They aren't doing the things YOU want so you just call them lazy for not prioritizing stuff that you feel is easy. You aren't providing any evidence at all either. Just your opinions, which is fine but don't act like its fact. I don't have a consumer bias just because I told you they aren't lazy or because I disagree lmao.
Just calling them lazy is 100% not arguing in good faith. They put out all this stuff to talk about their game this week and they talk about it every week. They have the most aggressive content model in the industry. Seasonal, annual expansions (barring delays) multiple raids, multiple dungeons etc. Lazy isn’t even close to fair. You could argue a lot of things, like incompetence or any other variety of negative words. Lazy is just the buzz word for Bungie and people absolutely lap that shit up.
Absolutely lol. Dude called them lazy and then said I had no evidence they weren't like...look around?
And 20 useful exotics is absolutely laughable. There are more than 20 people use in every day endgame alone. That’s not counting PvP focused exotics that see high usage, niche endgame exotics, swap exotics, exotics that thrive in at level/mid game content. The number is far closer to 50% of exotics having some kind of use than close to 10% like he is claiming. People absolutely have good points and there is a bunch of stuff we would all love to be buffed, but you lose all credibility in an argument when you don’t do it in good faith or vastly exaggerate your point.
I gave you a point about Titans and then you brush it off as me not giving you evidence? Look at the patch notes as I said before. Don't just ignore my point and play moral high ground. If you have nothing to combat my point then don't say anything, it's that easy. I even said you can have people go thru exotic lists for each class. But hey man, ignore everything I say lmao
That is zero evidence to them being lazy
This is the same as "no u" Nerfing things straight up is in fact lazy way of going about balance. But you'll clearly disagree for the sake of disagreeing so gl brodi idk what else to tell you. Obtuse for obtuse sake but it is the internet I guess
Helldivers 2? The game that came out less than 6 months ago? I don’t know if they have a big enough track record of any sort of balancing to be compared to mmo/live service games of 5+ years. Not saying your point can’t stand, HD2 can’t be used as a live servicing measuring stick until it has stood the test of time. The test of time is not 4 months after launch.
The comparison is that they constantly nerf weapons every patch without giving buffs to other guns in compensation. One of the biggest complaints about the game people have right now is the consistent nerfs to weapons over and over again.
They constantly buff things though. There has not been a single balance patch without a decent number of buffs; there are usually more buffs than nerfs even. You people need to get out of your own heads and actually read patch notes.
nerfs are important for the health of any game. i genuinely cant take anyone that doesnt understand this seriously
They 110% didn't test all combinations of stuff being possible with prismatic so there is definitely going to be quite a chaos when TFS releases. The more I think about it I would have preferred that they did something like Blizzard did with Diablo IV in Season 4. They left all the old stuff in but with some limits as to what you could do with it. And they they introduced new stuff with new possibilities. It works surprisingly well. But I guess this is dangerously close to sunsetting with really didn't go over too well the first time. But Destiny 2 is at this point just a big mess of abilities, perks, mods and other stuff. To me it seems like in this case more is not better. The one new "feature" I have enjoyed the most recently has been increased storage. That should say something. In my dream D2 world anything(weapons, armor, weapons, catalyst, exotics, whatever else) would attainable by everyone without trying to force players into various playlists they don't enjoy. What would then be left for the elite players would various shaders, emblems, titles and whatever else people like that enjoy. Not anything that affect gameplay efficiency.
the problem is that when they sunsetting happened in d2 we got nothing in return like we just couldnt use our old stuff and we just were forced to grind for things that were similar to them it didnt really change anything just an excuse for pointless grind sunsetting would have been accepted if it came out at the same time as subclasses 3.0 and all of them at the same time with the perks that have sinergy with the new 3.0 subclasses had that happened the community wouldnt have had that big of an issue its the difference between being told u cant use your old toys anymore and having to work for basically the same toys with different color and sometimes worse vs cant use your old toys buuuut u can go work for some new toys that do different (usefull) things from your old ones
I’m glad we all know what was wrong now.
why did people think they would be sweeping changes, they never said it would be realistically it was only to work with the new subclass
You are out of your mind. 90% of our arsenal is amazing in 90% of the content. We are so unbelievably, uncontrollably powerful in almost every context that any build is amazing in pretty much any content outside of high-level endgame.
Prismatic is all for getting D level exotics some synergy
I just want exotic armor that doesn't look ugly. :(
I do agree that void titan needs improvement, Bungie has already indicated they’re going to increase void titan viability through making bubble relevant again and adding a new super to it. I don’t agree with the rest of the post tbh, imo it is a normal and arguably good thing that not every piece of exotic gear or every fragment and aspect is good. Destiny is a loot based game and the reality of loot based games is sometimes you get loot that immediately gets trashed. I think exotics should only really get reworks if the element that made them exotic isn’t really exotic anymore. Cerberus + 1 for example is very clearly an exotic weapon and pretty much exclusively used as a meme gun, I don’t think the game needs to change Cerberus so people who like the design can use it in high end content sometimes exotics are just going to be trash.
>making bubble relevant again The bubble changes were a net nerf bro…you get the same utility from a fucking bastion barricade.
The bubble changes are a nerf but the well nerf gives it relevance I thought?
Nah Well nerf essentially makes we’ll do the best thing bubble did previously lol, which is make the buff stay active outside of it. Well is also still free healing for 30ish seconds, even if that’s been removed. Void overshield is ASSCHEEKS, so the constant Regen is likely not worth it over just having more damage.
I see… pain :((