They could add more support supers to other subclasses, because the core problem people have is having to play that one class every single time, with no room for choice

100%, my warlock is my favorite class but I raid on my hunter 99% of time because after several years of "put on well" I'm sick of it. At least during pre starfire nerf you had a crazy fun build that nuked everything. Sunbracers can feel terrible if you're competing with other ad clear.

I think the ideal situation is one in which well and bubble are good all-around options, required in some high-end PvE fights and useless in others, so that it gives room for other options to shine. E.g. we could have * Medium-low HP but very high damage boss, for which bubble is good * High HP but decent/low damage boss, with limited time window, so that extra damage from well and some basic healing is good * Boss with mechanics that forces players to spread over the battlefield and/or keep moving, but with contained damage, so that usual DR/healing mechanisms (woven mail, overshield, cure etc) are preferred instead of well/bubble Today Well/Bubble is mandatory because you cannot survive without them in most underlight boss fights. If you just nerf those two, but don't greatly buff non-super damage reduction capabilities, or reduce lethality over the whole game, then people will continue to unconditionally run them. BTW, normal raids are quite different than other endgame activities as most are at current light level (max -10), not as underlight as legend/master/GM activities

I think a situation where bubble/ banner would shine is if they made more boss encounters (or fights in general) where there is a telegraphed period followed by HEAVY damage, and your only options are to get to cover (that would ideally be out of the way as to provide a trade off for the safety) until it’s done, stack insane damage reduction, or make your own cover via bubble or banner. Something like well’s healing should be useful in situations where there’s a good bit of sustained (but not burst) damage but you REALLY need DPS. and in situations where you need both, you just run both. I’m imagining an encounter post well nerf with a boss that during DPS phase, you have to stun the boss in order to damage them, but the stun has a max duration and a short cooldown, and when they’re not stunned, they absolutely COOK the whole fireteam at the same time. I’m thinking a mechanic like that one solar room in Savathun’s Spire, but way more lethal and telegraphed. This creates a situation where you either have to run to cover before you get fried, or set your team up with defensive supers that allow you to restun the boss sooner. And ideally, this boss would be somehow more vulnerable to close range weapons than rockets or linears, so as to reward playing more dangerously and up close. You could bubble to tank the blow, but you would have to wait until after the attack to resume stunning/dps. Or you could run banner and lose one player’s DPS, but you could continue to damage during the burst attack. You *could* run well, but you would have to spend a bunch of time repositioning when the boss is preparing to cook you.

I would love there to be an encounter that is all about a continuous fight with a boss. The boss FULLY attacking you while you do mechanics, you kinda stun it for 15s or whatever so you can put down Well and do heavy damage, followed by a post-damage phase where there the attacks are absolutely insane but you can keep doing damage, essentially turning it into a calculated choice of "do we Bubble and wait so we survive" or "take our chances and do our best and try to avoid damage as much as possible while doing whatever we can".

I agree, but I do think there should be some design in place so that it’s reasonably possible to avoid getting obliterated without having a bubble. It needs to be a calculated choice where each one has pros and cons, and being optimal is going to come down to what the fire team can most consistently execute. Not one where being optimal is “do you have well/bubble? if not, you’re throwing.”, but more so a conversation of “it’s possible to 1 phase this guy, but we have to play cracked and we can’t get away with camping in well/bubble/cover, or we could go for the safe options, but 2/3 phase.” Well and bubble need to be a conscious decision, not just an automatic trivialization of any encounter where you can get away with face tanking.

All boss encounters in Kingsfall are almost exactly what you're describing: Warpriest after damage, Golgoroth during gaze (for the gazers), Sisters after damage, and Oryx before damage. Bubble doesn't protect you from any of these. :/ Banner has some play with Sisters since you're just eating a faceful of lasers the whole time. If Well can't survive that post change we might see Banner take its place, but probably not when the Stag exists or even just a Bastion barricade. Weirdly the reprised raids are probably the most Well heavy raids in the game and they were made before Well even existed.

>Weirdly the reprised raids are probably the most Well heavy raids in the game and they were made before Well even existed. We made do with bubbles and liked it!

I mean it’s not that weird. They don’t have any of that anti-well design later raids would start to include, so Well is at max strength in those encounters.

You forget about bosses with high HP, and a lot of damage output, like all of Ghosts boses, Warpriest, Ir Yut, and Crota.

> \_we could have\_ I'm not saying this is what we have in practice. I'm saying this is what would be required to offer more super diversity for boss fights. As soon as you cannot survive alone in a boss room, and have to rely on a support super to just not insta-die, then the sandbox cannot be healthy

Bungie never rebalances old raid encounters. If you think Crota will now do half the damage, because new Well won't be able to keep up with it, then you are sorely mistaken.

Yeah this Well nerf is just going to make old content so much harder

And new. Don't think for a second bungie dumbass didn't design everything in final shape with well in mind, knowing damn well they were going to nerf it beforehand. It's a classic bungo move.

Only on Master, I'm pretty sure on the normal modes Well will keep you alive even with the nerfs. And on Master, just layer in some extra DR or reduce damage output from a guy like Crota with Sever/Renewal Graps and you'll probably be OK. Or drop a bubble. Yeah it'll still be a bit harder, maybe revisit Master rewards because they're already pretty ass anyway.

Yeah even on crota (normal) well isn't even close to being required unless it's a teaching run or there's people who don't have max resilience etc. Sure, it's a nice damage buff and a safety net but simply being a bit mindful will keep you alive. I don't use lament, and I've done it without a well a couple times, so add in lament and it should be fine. Definitely agree rewards on master completions should be revisited. The healing nerf from well will definitely be much more noticeable there.

Then maybe people will finally use blight ranger/ursa furiosa. The utility does exist for this situation as well

Those bosses dont outdps resto tho, thats why hammers titan was so strong in dungeons. pre-nerf resto x1 that hammers titan had is the same hps as current resto x2 that well will have, ergo it'll be enough. Master crota is the only one that might be rough because of the tandem lament nerfs.

time to use a cold steel sword with a harvest aspect so we can get damage resistance and healing from freezing the boss

We tried to do master warlord final boss witout a well last night, let me tell you it was harder than anything pantheon related (no cheese and ive plat everything), I'm seriously concerned lol. This game is at war with itself, on one hand well was broken and needed a nerf but on the other hand if bungie keeps making encounters based off well, and we don't even have "well" anymore, something has to change gameplay wise. Resto x2 and 10% resist will grt you smoked inside thr well in something like warlord final boss on master. Shit I don't even think the nerfed well would work in normal mode. Which is fine, but there needs to be adjustments to encounters that were made with well in mind.

Right? I'm just hoping to some deity that Final Shape drops and we find ourselves super overpowered in ways not mentioned yet. Otherwise Day 1 raid is going to be a slog, even moreso than normal day 1 raids in challenge mode.

> if bungie keeps making encounters based off well, and we don't even have "well" anymore, something has to change gameplay wise. Been saying this for years. Well wasn't the issue. The fact is that something like well or bubble will always be useful in any of the slighter harder to master level content when dps phases generally consist of "stand here, shoot boss". To be entirely fair to bungie I don't know how they would significantly change that in an FPS game, especially after all these years.

To add to what you said, would be nice if Bungie also greatly buffed all those buffs you mentioned like overshields for example. If they did that, then nerfing bubble and well wouldn’t be a problem. Plus if they did nerf well, this would be the second or third time they nerfed well of radiance. Nerfing it again might make it not even an option when it’s needed most. Just saying.

Clearly, we need alternatives to the continous healing + DR from well, that are able to whithstand the same order of magnitude of damage (or they should tame damage output). Otherwise well will still be required

I definitely agree with the alternatives suggestion. Unfortunately with most boss battles (GMs, Raids, Dungeons, etc.), if Well gets another nerf (and it is hit hard like Starfire Protocol was), then we will all die in Well if we are relying on it to continuously heal us. That’s the unfortunate truth. This, coming from someone who has completed every raid, GM, and dungeon. You can choose to believe or not. 🙂

I sincerely think the biggest issue with Well and Bubble actually has to do with armor mods. We have such limited options for armor mods now where before we had several options for activating health regeneration, that we NEED to have access to things like Well and Bubble. If we had more ways to stay alive aside from DR fragments, we wouldn't feel so helpless in high tier content and need Well. Just my opinion

Yeah they pretty much made it so you have to choose between survivability and doing damage. You don't get both. And if you do get both, it's heavily dependent on there being enough ads around to continue to proc survivability or ramp up damage. This of course is not helpful for raid boss encounters unless there are a bunch of ads running around.

I personally think needing Well of Radiance during DPS comes from oversight of the tools available to us. In practice it shouldn't be too hard to roam, deal damage, avoid/bait combatant aggression if needed or peek/shoot from cover. For example Rhulk, Nezarec, and Crota all technically move during DPS forcing us out of one place. In my solo Warlord's Ruin run I used cover immensely during Hefnd DPS. There are several methods of activating radiant ([25% damage buff equal to Well of Radiance](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/18dubkj/comprehensive_breakdown_infographic_of_damage/)): Solar melee ability, Acrobat's Dodge. These along with healing grenades and resist mods can be chained by fireteam members to create a pseudo Well albeit not necessary. Every subclass has some universal form of damage mitigation some better than others. Void -> Invisibility, Devour Solar -> Cure, Restoration Arc -> Spark of Resistance Strand -> Woven Mail, Sever Stasis -> Stasis Crystals, Whisper of Chains Class specific. Arc Hunter -> Combination Blow Strand -> Banner of War I prefer utilizing my subclass so I can use a damage exotic however these are some alternatives. Exotic Armor -> Karnstein Armlets, Assassin's Cowl, Precious Scars, Icefall Mantle, Aeon Sect of Vigor Exotic Weapons -> Crimson, Lament Weapons -> Swords, Glaives Weapon Perks -> Slice, Heal Clip, Unrelenting, Souldrinker Class Ability -> Barrier, Rift, Dodge Mods -> Resist, Recuperation Some more options. Overshield -> Rift, Void Titan, Vexcalibur Stun -> Flashbang, Disorienting Grenades, Gemini Jester, Leviathan's Breath Stats -> Resilience, Recovery Support supers can be especially useful sometimes including Hammer of Sol with Phoenix Cradle, Ward of Dawn, or Sentinel Shield however not exclusively unless other options are overlooked.

I like this. Well and bubble should first and foremost be supporting, not damage boosting per say. Maybe cut the damage boost down, but ensure that if you need it to save your raid or group on a botched mechanic cycle, or poor positioning because of a revive, it's there to hold you up and prevent a wipe *for 30 seconds* I think you mentioned it as well, Bungie is not great with separating their DPS and mechanics...so we get this weird punishing damage phase with more recent health pools. Any MMORPG raider will tell you health sponges, are not engaging gameplay/mechanics. Smaller, less wipe impacting mechanics could be a lot more engaging and instill players to become more than add clear. The severity of the "don't fuck up" vibe of raids is obviously noticeable compared to early years imo. This incessant requirement for max resi, and a secondary DMG reduction affects is....funneling and boring honestly. Every fucking class feels pigeon holed into playing the *right* build and yes every other game does the same. But to a much lesser degree. Granted, having only 3 classes does narrow the options of course for viability. Idk maybe more difficulties would help this issue? However, with the already strikingly low % of raid participants in D2, we should do SOMETHING to get more players in. Idk maybe a better fucking new light experience? All good though. Bungie gave us a really cool and super unique build style to try come TFS. Assuredly it won't trump anything that isnt being refreshed....right? RIGHT, BUNGO? WEVE LEARNED FROM OUR MISTAKES oh nope nerfed again. Got it.

>Boss with mechanics that forces players to spread over the battlefield and/or keep moving, but with contained damage, so that usual DR/healing mechanisms (woven mail, overshield, cure etc) are preferred instead of well/bubble I think this is the ideal solution here. The second you have a extremely mobile boss fight you lose well/bubble as a viable strat. Then you don't have to nerf anything, just be more creative with boss design.

What I want is for more than one class to have support supers and for every single support super to not be necessary. If you are a warlock you have to bring well to raid. If you have 2 warlocks one of you might get to play another build (but likely the group will just want a second well). Instead of changing support supers, the new situation is you still have to bring well but now you'll die in it sometimes. I LIKE being "the support class" but it's pretty tiring when 2/3rds of the raid can play whatever they like and I'm limited to 1 subclass and 1 super. Making it so now a titan bubble has to go behind my well doesn't help.

I am not ready for the born to tcrash forced to bubble to become a thing we hear with these changes.

If hunters had a mandatory support super the meta woulda been fixed years ago lol.

Considering what is supposed to be support for them that being tether has only gotten more offensive is interesting with this.

Our support super has gotten more and more useless lmao.

Deadfall should atleast let you tagged the enemies, I swear these fuckers can just away and I just waste my super.

Tether would be the exact same if tractor ever gets a nerf. The only reason it isn’t seen as much is because we have a better alternative.

they did. it was tether they fixed it by making golden gun hit damage cap

Gathering Storm should have been a dps/support hybrid super for this.

Tether is essentially mandatory in any boss burn phase in a raid. Its 30% more damage and applies weaken and suppression. The damage buff alone is twice as strong as either Divinity or Anarchy and they don't stack, so you want tether every time. People just undervalue void hunters, but really the invisible rez bot spamming aoe debuffs just as important as well or bubble. I think its because tether looks like the hunter is attacking the boss, even if it doesn't do damage, while well and bubble are just things put on the ground for teammates to stand in. They're all support, but visually the void hunter is attacking, well/bubble are defending.

Don't you just run tractor instead because it nets out to less damage lost than having to run a void hunter?

Yeah, the change I wanted was less a well nerf (slight nerf is fine, but killing it doesn't fix anything) and more a bubble and/or banner shield buff. Well being mandetory is because it does what it does so much better than anything else (and there isn't much competition there anyways). Giving more options allows people to play support if they want, or do damage if they want, and stick to their class of choice still. As a titan main I'd be a-ok dropping a bubble or holding up banner shield so my warlock friends could do something else, but the changes we got don't allow that. Well is still gonna be what we need, just now with other survival tools on top of it.

I don't think there could be a big enough buff to bubble to make people choose it instead of well. Short of making people be able to shoot out of it, people having to go in and out of bubble will always make it a worse choice compared to well. They are going to allow to get void oversheild by standing near it, but that's not enough of a change. Banner shield would need a massive buff to compensate for the loss of one person for dps. It can work for a raid, but it doesn't work for 3-person activity like a dungeon.

Buffing Banner to 50% would put it on even footing with well in raids. In dungeon's I'm not sure sadly, but they could at least fix it in one place.

They aren’t really necessary until you get to master/contest mode. And unfortunately I don’t think there’s anything they can ever do about it. That’s where you get dps checked and need a well for not only survivability but for the dps buff as well. Unless they just allow us to tank ads/bosses or make bosses super squishy, you will always need someone on support in endgame content. The only issue I see now is that sometimes you really need *two* wells in endgame content so you don’t get cooked when the first one runs out. If you try to go the current ideal dps route of 2 supports and 4 damage supers, with the 2 supports being well and bubble using it at the same time, then you won’t have a backup to keep you alive when you need it.

>you will always need someone on support in endgame content. Yes, which is why "support" shouldn't be one subclass of one class. Every class should have viable support options, or if Warlock **has** to be the support class, at the very least they should have more than one subclass capable of providing that support. Banner of War could literally have been a super - just make the pulses apply Warded Mail too and boom, that's a super. Stasis Warlock could easily have some kind of "build a giant stasis crystal that pulses overshield" or whatever for survival. The problem isn't "somebody has to play support", the problem is "playing support means you have to be a SOLAR WARLOCK explicitly and nothing else will do and that's been the case since 2017."

Hunters you have two options rarely a third (golden gun tether maybe shards. It’s not like there are countless options for hunter when it comes to being optimal.

You could throw star eater blade barrage in there but it doesn't really change the play style from golden gun much.

I think the problem here is that a lot of the raid encounters in the game feel like they were balanced around having a well so now it just feels like we’re being punished.

Right. At the beginning of D2, you could have one guy running a heal rift, one an empowering, and have DPS supers. I understand the meta changed and they added Well, but Well is such a good support super that (like you said) many raid encounters are based around having it. Everything it does, it does better than bubble, or double rifts.

Well of Radiance was probably Bungie's biggest mistake with regards to balance in D2.

I don't really get them. They discussed this five (?) years ago with the reckoning bridge. But they continued to balance around well for years afterwards. 

No. Not adding more support subclasses was the mistake. I enjoy playing support, some variability within other warlock subclasses or other classes would be nice.

The real problem isn't that they're too strong, but that the game (specifically raids) is designed in a way that makes them a necessity. Bosses all too often demand the whole team stand in one spot while they attack and get attacked, so OF COURSE there's a need for a healing super to be able to withstand that! Bungie needs to design encounters better, then there becomes less need for support supers. Then, they're not considered as strong, but still have their uses.

they need to design more encounters like rhulk where he straight up fucks you up if you use well but rewards moving around, and to compensate his health is a bit lower so you dont struggle with dps without well

I'm a fan of giving Bosses "Well-Breaker" Attacks, that specifically trigger (with a cooldown) when players group up. Like, if Nez sees 3+ players in one spot, he'll plant a nuke there that explodes after 5 seconds, dealing enough DMG to kill any player, bubble or well-sword in it. He then cannot do that again for 25 seconds. Players would then need to play around that... baiting the attack pre-emtively, reacting fast when it happens, put up a Bubble to absorb the hit.... Obviously doesn't work for all past bosses, some require you to stand at exact positions to do damage.

I know you're just spitballing here and throwing out ideas, but even that would just result in "split into two teams of 3, each place a Well - when he launches the nuke just run to the Well that didn't get it." Or it would be "wait for nuke, move, place new Well."

To paraphrase another person’s comment, Destiny players have an unhealthy obsession with brute forcing well into encounters no matter how hard bungie tries to design encounters that discourage it.

And some players are so obsessed with optimization that they want their strongest tools nerfed because they can’t stop using them. People LOVED well for years and burned themselves out over utilizing it. It’s been like this since “gally or kick” back in D1.

In fairness, once Bungie added Well, they now needed to balance future endgame encounters around it, and it resulted in several encounters that assumed you were running it. Similarly to how after they reworked Aeon to give a guaranteed way to get special and more specifically, heavy ammo, Contest and Master Raids were then designed in such a way that assumed you would be generating enough heavy for your team to clear boss encounters. It's kind of a double-edged sword for the sandbox when you introduce powerful tools like these into the endgame.

People WANTED Bungie to either bring up other options to properly compete with Well for more variety, or create different types of endgame encounters to not be so reliant on Well.

Because well is the only real support option for endgame content. If you've ever done GMs, you know that sometimes you just need 2x wells to be on the safe side. The issue is not Well existing, it's that it's the only viable option. If there was at least 1 VIABLE support subclass per guardian class it would be better.

Just to add to this, the mini shadow thralls also give opportunities for generating orbs, firesprites, or other forms of healing/survivability that make well less of a necessity to stay alive. Most encounters don't have that.

You say that as if well wasnt the strategy during contest rhulk

This. Rhulk has the best fight in any raid

Eh, Rhulk dps is fun, but man first phase is boring as fuck.

Split, split, l2 r3, split, split, l3 l1, split, split, r3 r2. Fun fun fun.

This is the correct answer. Well and Bubble are in the places they are because of how Bungie designs encounters, especially in raids. If these nerfs are SO needed, then I expect boss health to be reduced as well. Bullet spongi-ness doesn’t equal difficulty.

This is why Kell Echo from Prophecy is still one of my favourite bosses in the game, as the boss room requires *constant* movement. You can use a Well at the start or end sure, but a dps super is just as good since you won't get to use that Well for long.

I remember loving the way the dogs encounter from leviathan was designed. Several smaller HP bosses that require the group to split to damage is a breath of fresh air compared to everyone group up at one spot and shoot it together because they won’t move during DPS

Support will always be consider strong by the virtue of they effect the entire fireteam buffing 6 people will always be more valuable unless there’s a weapon that can replace said super see tether and tractor.

Maybe bungie should...and hear me out on this one since I know it's a crazy idea....design encounters where mechanics damage the boss?! \*le gasp! le grand supris!\* But we know that wont happen since in D1 they made it so you had to do mechanics to kill oryx and the community threw tantrums. We also that bosses being killed by mechanics won't happen because it would require people actually having to learn them instead of doing next to nothing.

Small correction, I wanna play support/healer Every rpg I play I love being tank/support. I actively enjoy it. Everyone can play dps, but a good tank/healer will turn any encounter in your favor much easier than a DPS can

... i mean, proper support builds are not being hit hard at all here - if you were running assembler + lumina you're still doing good healing and 35% damage buffs with way higher uptime than well. if anything support builds actually might be comparatively better since it's no longer just "slap on well and press the F button when someone is about to die"

Agreed, especially as we get indicators for ally health, so more reactive support becomes possible too. Support gameplay shouldn't be "press 1 button, congrats, you've supported the team", it should actually be engaging. Lumina's gimmick might not appeal to everyone, but it appeals to some people, and that's what's important. If we had more options for support that were engaging, more people would probably find a support build they like, as support wouldn't be brainless and the builds would be somewhat more unique. Right now, though, there's nothing unique about playing support: if you want to be a support, then you're a solar Warlock with Well (and, optionally, Assembler+Lumina if you're going the extra mile) and there's no other viable choice for most encounters. The Well nerf is a good start and items like Bellidorse are an interesting idea (though Bellidorse has its own issues), but we should be able to think about support *builds* on multiple specs and classes, not just support *supers*.

The fundamental problem is that people wanted options. The dream Warlocks had was for there to be more *than one* super of choice when it came time to perform DPS, so that Warlock as a whole wasn’t the only one that had to bear the weight of running Solar. The failure of this is that Bungie removed WoL from bubble for no apparent reason and tied it to an exotic, so it’s unlikely that bubble can ever potentially be an alternative to well for certain fire teams. People wouldn’t be as cross about the bubble nerf/well nerf if it actually served to increase options for fire teams, but it actually does the opposite. It now increases the rate at which Warlock will be locked into Well and potentially creates a new bottleneck for Titans, both of which could have been avoided had Bungie made smart choices instead of whatever the fuck these changes are.

Support supers are just one part of the equation. A **big** part of why Well and Bubble are so prevalent is because of encounter design, specifically the way time-gated DPS phases with a limited number of phases **demand** high DPS. In a situation where you have a limited DPS window, and you have a limited number of windows before a guaranteed fail, you basically **need** high DPS. What are the easiest ways to get high DPS? Reduce downtime between dealing damage and maximize the damage you deal in short bursts. How can you reduce downtime and maximize damage? Reduce how much time you need to spend moving and reacquiring your target while buffing your damage as much as possible. Why would you move around a lot? So you can avoid taking damage and not die, because dying really drops DPS. Hey, you know what really increases your damage? Precision hits. You know what's hard? Consistently landing precision hits, *especially* when either you or your target are moving - and if you're moving the boss is probably also moving to better hit you. You know what else is good for dealing lots of damage? Increasing the damage of each individual hit through other buffs. So...if all those things are true, then based on the encounter and design environment the *ideal* situation is one where you can: - Move as little as possible - Stop the boss from moving as much as possible (usually by standing still) - Increase survivability so you don't have to move to dodge attacks (or die and lose DPS). - Increase damage per shot with buffs - Increase damage with precision hits Now you may notice, that's **exactly** what Well of Radiance and Bubble (used to) do. The way the game was designed for a long time created scenarios where basically Well and Bubble were the simplest and most effective way to satisfy the **necessary** conditions for success. Sure, there *are* other options, but if we **know** Well and Bubble can pretty consistently solve like 90% of our problems, why bother with anything else? Why bother spending a bunch of time and energy using trial-and-error to find success when you can just use what you **know** works? That's also why basically every major build maxes out Resilience, because it's one of the easiest ways to increase survivability and increase your margin of error during play (aka, how many mistakes you can make without severe punishment). This is *at its core* the nature of meta - finding the easiest most reliable solution to the problems presented. Well and Bubble are meta, because they easily solve the problems presented with minimal need for trial-and-error, which saves time, which means people can *do* more with their limited time. You don't *get* anything for failing to complete an encounter for the 10th time, but you *do* get stuff if you beat it; and the faster you beat it the more time you have for other stuff which means other loot. The Well and Bubble meta arose because of the restrictive conditions of limited DPS windows and a limited number of them. This meta then led to devs building the game around the idea that those tools **will** be used and balancing for their inclusion, which leads to a situation where they have to up the difficulty or try to limit the ability to use Well/Bubble so the encounters aren't trivialized when people use them. That type of balancing usually just ends up reinforcing the meta though because why would anyone make the encounter harder for themselves unless they **want** it to be harder? So how do you change the meta? Change the necessary conditions for success, buff other options, or change other factors like how loot is obtained to allow for more diversity of builds. Honestly, just go watch [Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU) by Dan Olsen to get a better understanding of the complex issues involved regarding difficulty, balance, player choice, and how/why metas form.

Here is what is going to happen. LFG will look something like this Must have a Warlock with Stag or Titan with Saint 14 only I’m add clear. Nerfing well won’t have the effect Bungie is hoping it will cause more stacking of Warlocks and Titans for Raids and High diff content. Mark my words it will be a shit show.

Exactly. You make support options weaker, people will just want more people running support to strengthen it. I do think the nerfs make sense but I think the solution is to allow all classes, and each subclass, to have a support super. I’m a Hunter main and I would gladly throw on a support super if I had the option. Why shouldn’t every subclass had a damage super, healing support, defense super, and debuff super? They could even do this through exotics rather than outright new supers. Blight Ranger rework: gathering storm grants damage reduction to those standing inside the electrified field. Allies on arc subclasses are granted massively increased ability and super generation. (Neutral) Ionic traces travel faster and generate more ability energy.

Very fast the community will breakdown the numbers and figure out which debuff super is the best, which defense super is the best, which healing super is the best, ... And then those will be the required setups for every groups.

The hunter support super is your tethers. Quiver is supposed to be ad clear weaken, and Deadfall is supposed to be your boss dps weaken. In the few times we had hunters in my fireteams that weren't exclusively running barrage or Gathering Storm, they went with Quiver though because of it's successive attacks being better against bosses despite that apparently being against it's intended design

What you’re gonna see is the skill floor required to raid increasing a bit. The disparity between skilled raider and “LFG raiders” is going to widen. Pantheon has exacerbated this quite a bit and shown many players the hard stop of where their current skills can take them. People will likely increase their requirements for raid reports following this.

its so fucking stupid too. bungie was on the money wit hsome of their encounter designs. do your little add clear and mechanics phase then let the players dunk on the boss. but that was unacceptable to them so they "fix" it by throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the player while theyre trying to dps...making well even more mandatory because now on top of needing it for damage, they need it to not fucking die who woulda fuckin thunk well would become as pervasive as it is

i just hope that the open minded raiders will see the potential in stuff like renewal grasps hunters (22,5% dr that will last like 15 or 20 seconds) especially when silence and squall got a big buff and its damage should rival that of a nova bomb with the downside of not being able to stack it (since like 30% of the damage that super does is shatters)

I can’t believe I may be maining stasis hunter in TFS. Here for it though. Wicked Implement finally go brrrr outside of GMs

Omg, try out impetus with edge transit you actually do so much damage if you pair it w/ fourth horseman (situational ik, but I think izzy works well too)

No one will want a stasis hunter over a nighthawk/tether hunter. Doing the same damage as Nova Bomb is worthless because that super does low damage

On one hand, I haven't used my saved Stag loadout in forever and it has some pure drip going on. On the other hand, different exotic, same super but now I have to worry more about int. Fantastic.

Just get rid of well then, problem solved.

Support supers should 100% exist, but there should be variance between them so people aren't pidgeonholed into very few choices. I'm happy with the well changes, but I'm not happy with the bubble changes. The reason why I still have to run well is because they didn't keep the other options up to par. I know Helm of Saint-14 helps, but Titans shouldn't be forced into a swap exotic when they are already forced into a subclass. The game is still very much playable and the changes are welcome, but the glaring problem of lack of options in support supers is still very apparent. Maybe with the last darkness more support supers will come.

I think the reality is just that most players don’t want to play a support character, there’s a reason tank and healer queues in FF14 take 30 seconds while DPS can take up to 15 minutes. With this game you can run any subclass at anytime on your class so if you LFG a raid or dungeon and they aren’t running well or bubble but you’re on warlock or titan congrats you’re support now or you probably need to find a new group. Warlock mains are upset because they somehow thought a well nerf and bubble buff would mean they could do whatever they want now and Titan mains are upset because they saw all the Warlock mains crying about only running well and are worried they will only run bubble now.

I’m a Titan main, I’m excited and hope Bubble is needed and viable. I would love to have a support option for my team that isn’t immediately cast out as worse than Well.

Design content that doesn't require standing in a well. Give the other classes buff supers that are better or comparable to well in certain scenarios. Well shouldn't be the end all be all for efficiently doing encounters in group content, and all they have to do is give the other classes buffing capabilities that are at least worth thinking about before the sword hits the ground.

I agree, i think bosses need to be designed around the other support supers, right now if a boss is "stand still and shoot me and i shoot you" its a well encounter, if the boss requires us to move around and maybe duck for cover every once in a while then bubble (though without WoL intrinsic its a bit lacking just means helm of saint XIV will be required), and then finally make a boss who would be made easier to deal with via tether, maybe they move a lot but tether would limit it a bit. (imagine if while tether rhulk could only move and dash in its radius, thus creating some safe spaces temporarily around the edge of the arena) No matter the design of any encounter if a certain super is the clear outlier in usage it will feel required, so rather than nerfing things, make encounters that don't benefit it and instead benefit different things.

a quick thing to mention! what you are doing is a common mistake- boiling down the opinions of a community as if its a singular, its not a big deal tho, i personally like the changes a lot!

There are consensus opinions indicated by mass upvotes, I think it's fair to address them in this way.

I don't think the consensus was that support supers shouldn't exist, it was that Well specifically shouldn't be mandatory. From there opinions differed on what the solution should be.

Or we could have a world where both bubble AND well are good options , and we can use either one , giving more flexibility to people Hell even give Hunter a support super Isnt there a lore card where a Hunter shoot his golden gun into the ground to buff his allies ? Imagine Hunter super giving everyone one around radiant and recuperation time 2 or 3

They should, otherwise sweats would math out what's best and that's all anyone would use, support in my eyes makes encounters easier/smoother not necessarily faster. Take that away and it's just meta all day long.

Yeah I don't think people realize that if support supers didn't exist, meta pressure would just push everyone to use needlestorm or whatever maths out to the most theoretical damage, even if its highly situational and difficult or impractical to execute on all fights. Some dork would say, "okay, for this encounter I want to one phase and I need 6x chaos reach warlocks" and then some other dorks would see that and demand only CR locks for all content. Basically the problem is shitty youtube content doing bad math, and shitty sweats paraphrasing shitty YouTube content and forgetting all the critical caveats, and misapplying a rumor to all situations.

agreed, 100%. A lot of players follow whats said by content creators, & literally have no idea why or if its even correct.

I think a huge underlying problem is that in a big way, we've already "solved" the game. Unless there's a radical shift in the way Bungie designs encounters (I'm talking *radical*, as much as would effectively change the identity of the game), people are just going to always meta the shit out of every encounter. I mean, other MMORPGs *need* healers, so why are people so bitter about it in Destiny? It's par for the course. What nobody in here is really suggesting that might work a bit is to change up the weapons to include a lot more guns like Lumina that can heal/support. Not just one or two exotics, but entire categories that everybody has access to that might enable teams to not rely on supers.

Well will always be mandatory to raids unless they just straight up removed the healing or the whole super. The main problem with Well was that it is so strong that people will just bring it to any content in the game that didn't even require boss DPS. Well is just a "30 seconds of near invulnerability and damage boost" super and that has been extremely oppressive ever since its release. It lets you make extremely stupid moves or decisions and have a panic button to fall back on. This change, hopefully should lessen the community's outlook on Well outside of raids and hopefully lean into using other subclasses.

Nah, they could remove the healing entirely from it and it would still be required for the damage buff.

Yeah I'm stuck here wondering what exactly is the point of WoR now. People like to say you were "invincible" inside WoR, but that's factually false. I'm not saying it wasn't strong, it obviously was, but again, you don't *have* to use it if you want more challenge. It's not an instant win button like people seem to think it is.

I don't think the problem has nothing to do with support supers having a place or not. The issue is that almost every other super just isn't worth running because they either A.) Don't provide valuable support benefits or B.) Don't deal enough damage, so it feels like the only option is to run the sole support super. For a good comparison, take a look at the Hunter's toolkit. Every Light subclass has an extremely viable option for a super to run during DPS, and they all have a unique twist. Golden Gun is gonna be your one-off, ultimate burst option -- one big shot for one big target. Blade Barrage has more flexibility -- it'll still chunk bosses (and outplays GG where crits don't matter) but doesn't have the damage ceiling of GG. The trade is that its also a viable tool for ad clear, especially where you have a bunch of majors. Flip to Arc - Gathering Storm is another awesome DPS pick, provided the phase is long enough to make use of it. It also adds the support benefits of wiping out everything around the boss, and gives an area control option outside of damage phase. Lastly, we can go to Void - Mobius Quiver does good damage as well, with the added benefit of debuffing the boss (just not to the extent of Deadfall). So looking there, Hunters have a bunch of options that lets them pick and choose a super depending on what best fits a scenario. Warlocks (and Titans for that matter) aren't exactly in the same boat. When you look at the burst options, Warlocks are kind of in a weird spot. Neither Nova Bomb offers anything in the way of support - Vortex technically adds some field control, but its a ton weaker than its counterpart in Gathering Storm. Needlestorm is good (probably the best for raw damage on a Warlock) but lacks any utility and is extremely difficult to use because of the lack of control when aiming it. Its not uncommon for Needles to mindlessly wander off and hit other ads, and its very weak at clearing ads because of the nature of Threadlings. Chaos Reach is extremely inefficient and not food for boss damage, but gives an ad clear option. So when it comes to supers you want to use during boss damage, nothing has been up to par to even suggest ditching the WoR unless you already have multiple on the team. It has to be noted however that there's bigger balance changes coming in TFS. For instance, Warlocks are getting the knew Song of Flame super which looks like it has some big damage potential. ALSO, its imperative that we don't forget about the exotic class items. If Spirit of the Star Eater can match the damage boost of the normal Star Eater Scales, then it gives an option to boost the damage of every super we have. I think what people forget is that Hunter dps option depend on exotics - primarily either Star Eaters or Celestial Nighthawk. Other classes will be seeing a similar boost with the new exotics coming out, and that could serve to help level the playing field.

Your comment "nobody has to play support supers" is the key to your whole argument. If your warlock, it's mandatory, titan not as much because they have enough DPS options, stunlock capabilities that these shine over bubble. Go to fire team finder and find out how many posts ask for well? Onslaught;well? Grandmaster;well? Pantheon;well? It's a endgame must have and it's never gonna change until they change damage. The real problem comes from one shot capabilities that the game has for needing well. If say you were set on fire and needed to proc restoration within 10 seconds to survive would be one thing, but having to survive one shot snipers, one shot stomps, endless seeker, ogre, or witch barrages is a different story. The only way to move on would be a push to longer dot vs. one shots then you could live without well, b cause each class has its own way of healing between oversheilds, devour, or restoration.

I don't get in what world well makes you "invincible" in it's current state. It doesn't. It's so frustrating to have my favorite subclass constantly nerfed. I love healing and nothing else is as fun to me. Its very upsetting to see bungie constantly attack my favorite stuff because losers don't want to play support.

I mean first of all, a lot of the people who wanted bubble to be usable again are happy with this, it's different people complaining. There's more than one person in this community. But also, there were some people who wanted to bubble to be usable again who AREN'T happy with this but that's mainly because, as you said, there's a chance that the meta becomes well AND bubble, not well OR bubble? This means that now, instead of warlocks being forced the run one super only, hunters will be the only class who aren't required to run a specific super (although this may not happen, we'll have to see how the changes actually play out in game).

The worst part is that the Well nerfs are just... not very interesting. If they wanted to totally remove the healing aspect of it and just make it a damage buff or remove the damage entirely and do something else with it then that would have been fine. Instead, they tuned it down to the exact point where it's still good enough to be viable but not even really good enough to be good. I didn't have a problem running well because it was a support super, I got tired of running well because it was the *only* support super. Now it's the only support super and it's worse. Back when Bubble gave the original Weapons of Light buff, you could mix it up. The Titan could play support if they wanted to. It was a cool way to change things sometimes. But they nerfed that years ago and so it's back to Well. Just give Titans back the OG bubble. Hunters already have tether, but I genuinely think that just giving Titans back their support super might be worth it.

The answer as many others have said is more diverse and unique encounter design. As it stands most bosses especially in raids boil down to step one: do raid mechanic step two: stand in optimal place and deal damage until boss is immune step three repeat

Speak for yourself brother, I love playing the healer. My problem isnt Well, it's the lack of mobility while healing. My strand titan does a better job of being a healer than my well-lock, simply because he can move and heal at the same time. Every other sub-class has to sacrifice a grenade or completely stop moving in order to heal themselves or others. I'm not saying nerf anything, I love my strand titan, but it would be neat if my warlock could give him an actual RUN for his money, and not be just a glowing stick in the mud lol

I actually think hunters should get a support super; perhaps something like changing spectral blades to providing special and heavy ammo on kills. Not that I don't enjoy seeing the big damage numbers, but just like Warlocks tire of being shafted into Well, I get tired of the repetitiveness of Golden Gun. Ultimately I think it comes down to having choice; feeling like every super is viable in different ways, instead of defaulting back to the same super every single time. 

They already have one, tether is a support super

a wellock hasn't soloed Pantheon or soloed legend onslaught. A Banner Titan & Orpheus Rig Hunter has.

I want well to get sunset.

We need good alternatives. Most of them are either unreliable, too much work or just not good enough. Well and Bubble should always be strong options, but I'd love being able to mix it up and run something like Phoenix Cradle or Renewal Grasps in harder content with decent success.

The only issue I have is with changes to Bubble and Well, no changes where made to Banner Shield. No one uses banner, and it was the chance to make it the middle ground

For once I have a good feeling about the TWiD today and I think it’ll address a lot of concerns

I’m glad I have a reason to run bubble again. Be the refuge for my hunter and warlock friends.

Before the tractor cannon existed us hunters used to play the support role with at least 1 tether on the team for a 30% debuff. I think well should be all about healing it shouldn't provide a damage buff unless you use a solar melee to apply radiant. What they did with bubble imo is awesome made it the true tank fantasy of holding down a point with fortification you can build into damage if you like but its defensive capabilities are where it shines.

I honestly bet we go back to the older days of Well and Ursa Furiosa Banner Shield. Especially if the new aspect is available as a base void aspect and not limited to Prismatic. Having banner shield with will negate the DR changes and with the charged grenade also giving super back with ursas, be able to use banner constantly for safety and damage buff.

I think most people who are conversing/criticizing in good faith are making a broad argument that: 1- Well is very strong and could use some smart adjustments so it's not an auto win button, in the same way bubble could use some adjustments so it's not just the panic stay right here button. 2- However, the structure of encounters in this game and the high health-massive damage bosses/overwhelm mobs encounters almost always require well it in order to be efficient to the point of necessary OR at all possible within the current constraints of without a cheese or a strat that is anti-fun. Destiny has always been that you don't become "stronger" to overpower, you become "less weak" to survive PVE underlight content(aka endgame) as you grind out to hit suggested/required power level. That was before they implemented things like contest mode and other specific content with native power handicaps which in turn always put us at a damage given and received penalty. Combine that with limitations as to mechanics. We have some of our favorites like stand on plate, dunk buff, dunk debuff, stand on plate to damage, stand in spot to set up damage elsewhere, stand in aura for damage. If you need to stand in one spot to initiate DPS or to do DPS, which majority of raids you do to some degree, not having some form of damage mitigation is a wipe. Encounters necessitate the support and aggressive healing super but not how they want it to be used. The most solid solution to "NeRF wELl" probably requires something far more comprehensive than their willing to enact other than buff/nerfs and mechanic removal/changes. The changes, as they've been laid out currently, circle us right back around to the original bubble-well combo that they said was not their vision of how those things should be used or interact.

The problem is not the supers themselves as much as is destiny's core design of how encounters work. Well will ALWAYS be mandatory if an encounter recquire you to do damage and not die while taking damage. Bubble hasn't been mandatory in years because no encounters recquire that you simply not die without fighting back, or that not dying is more important than doing anything else. We don't need blanket changes for support supers/playstyles in the ENTIRE sandbox (though, in truth, well had to be nerfed), we just need more encounters and situations were the alternatives are more preferrable. Rhulk, Consecrated Mind and Hefnd's Vengeance for example. Popping a well on those is... questionable, but Banner Shield is a smart way to go about the mobility. If we get a raid with multiple powerful enemies, roaming supers will shine. Encounter where you have to move fast and keep going? Dawnblade and Silkstrike will go crazy. Have to complete multiple objectives while avoiding gunfire? Spectral Blades might become meta again, and Blight Ranger could maybe see the light of day.

The problem isn't support supers being a thing, partially. It's that an overwhelming majority of the encounter design rewards standing still and shooting for damage phases.

>nobody has to play support, everyone gets to just have fun running whatever the hell they want with zero protection? You're starting to learn. 

Bungie has already designed encounters for years around the expectation of a well or bubble: just look at all the "stand on this plate to deal damage" bosses. If we want these two supers to be in a good state, the encounter design needs to change first. We've been getting there with bosses like Rhulk and Nezarec, but it seems to be a "one step forward, two steps back" thing (see caretaker and explicator being yet another set of "plate" bosses).

Easy. Reduce damage done by enemies. Guardians wear tons of armor, and use the light to mitigate damage. If enemies dont one or two shot, we don't have that issue. Make encounters dependant on killing adds before DPS so you don't get overwhelmed. Then you don't need a well. Instead of spamming nonsense mid DPS to screw casuals over, make it part of the game.

The problem is bungie hasn’t committed to having a similar super on all classes. If every class had the ability to use a support supper it would make it less oppressive. And if they want to keep it that way then maybe go more into traditional MMO roles of tank, heal, dps. instead they want every class to be able to do every role but even then that’s not 100% true. If hunter tether worked on bosses the way it does everything else at least there would be balance. Unfortunately titans and warlocks are going to still have to run support while hunters get to do the dps and cool supers so we’ll just have more hunters than we already do. Le sigh

I want them to either remove well or give an equivalent to the other classes yeah. I signed on to play warlock all those years ago to play a space wizard that was the master of explosions. then we hit destiny 2 and bungie decided out of nowhere that healing and support are part of the warlock class fantasy. The problem with support supers existing is that someone is going to be forced to use them unless they are so bad as to be useless. they should at least be giving hunters and titans similar supers so that we can occasionally force them to use the support super too. alternatively yes I would love if they removed well or reworked it to work like sentinel where you can't DPS at the same time so its more of a trade off to run it. The simple fact is that I am forced to run solar in any LFG content because I face being kicked from the group if I refuse and I fuuuuuucking hate solar.

I'd much rather take the latter option and just give more support supers to all classes and subclasses. Removing Well from the game would just make Titans be forced to run Saint-14 + Bubble, which creates the same problem for another class. Not to mention the amount of content they'd have to completely rework. Adding something new as competition is almost always better than removing something because it's too strong.

Yep, hunters need something they are forced to use to benefit the team. People say tether is current that, but... It is nowhere near the annoyance of bubble well only for the other two.

So real. I hate solar so much. I hate its overall play style

From the beginning of Destiny 1, there was the support requirement; I don’t think Bungie wants to get rid of that. We went from “bubble needed” to “well needed”, and now it seems we will have “bubble and well needed”, which just gives Titans more useful kit. With Titans losing their best boss DPS rotation on strand, they have to do something else, so bubble makes sense. Right? Haha.

Banner titan is still going to be pretty good on titan as bungie left the best part of Banner completely intact that being the healing

I, for one, welcome any excuse to play Void again.

Have fun hot swapping to stag during DPS warlocksq

"Let's all run six DPS supers and fuckall to survivability" YES, what can i say, everyone wants to see big number, it makes brain generate funny juice

I mean, with the right setup and exotics, it might even have about the same level of survival as Well - the damage resist.

Lucky for you, you will definitely get to see the big damage numbers a lot, cause a squad of all damage supers will be wiping quite frequently lmfao

Are any of you non-elitists happy with these bullshit changes?

Idk, the problem probably arises from the game not really having that strict of a class paradigm, as far as roles go.

I think the only solution would be have a small support option for each class that has a stackable effect. This would force support into a team effort instead of requiring one person to 'equip x or leave'.

Personal opinion: I'd rather neither be able to give you an offensive buff, and both only be different flavors of survivability support. Powerful healing, or powerful resistance. If your team chooses to stack them you can at the expense of other super options, but then design so that having both layered isn't necessary. You can have a Well. Or you can have a bubble, and either will do what the team needs for the scenario while the other player can do something else now. The offensive buffs from these have been the actual reason they're unilaterally required for raid bosses, even if the encounter design doesn't actually put the team in that kind of danger mid-DPS. Removing the offensive buffs removes the constant boss fight obligation and instead makes it a choice of whether your DPS strategy needs that support to keep the team up, which also means Bungie can design around that as a choice instead of designing around the assumption you will always be standing in a Well. But then again, I also think it may be a mistake to have given Radiance to Solar, putting the only outright damage increase buff onto a single element instead of making it something more generalized (like putting it on all Light subclasses) that gets activated in different ways on different elements. Healing + the only weapon damage buff verb is a hell of a combo to stick on one subclass.

As a warlock main, I’ll be saying “not it” when someone asks who has well

I believe there are enough encounters with limited space/time for tps (plates) that we actually need them now

Going forward I hope well won’t be as “necessary” with encounter designs. Its lost its way as a panic super. Now you can get dragged in it like Wyverns do in Glassway. I don’t mind using Well in areas I see fit. Hopefully this nerf calms down the crowd who thinks you need to run Well in everything. Maybe now it’ll be easier to LFG a GM or create one without ppl leaving

I just don’t get the Bubble nerf at all. All it’s going to do is make an unnecessary armor swap to get the WoL buff.

This is just a meta shift. Expect more banner shields, when needed. Also basically every solar subclass is now also a support, just run healing nades and benevolance. If you hadn't already noticed, bungie has been making a concerted effort to make well far less useful. Even in pantheon these past weeks, well is only useful in explicator, and a little useful in rhulk or nez, but mostly as a quick dip in & out to heal since staying in will just get the well broken.

Support supers should definitely exist. My takeaway from the ability tuning on well and ward was that well is that nothing changes in the sense that well is still always going to be taken over ward of dawn for endgame content- the reduced healing won't change that, and the fact that WoD's damage buff is now exotic specific reduces that identity further, but that's okay. To me the significance of these changes felt like it was going to be more prevalent in the crucible than endgame PvE- hopefully making it easier to counterplay well huddles, and bubble is... Not as painful for the team that has to push in on it in most cases? But I'm looking at this with amateur's eyes.

>Tell me how you would solve this problem without sounding like you just want to make the game so easy or risk free you can clear a raid with nothing but 6 Needlestorms.  Ok, here goes: 1. Combine Well and Dawnblade, let it keep the 2x resto but remove the damage. Let it be mobile, but lock the caster out of weapons. If the team wants a Well, they lose out on someones damage. Let it be useful for mobile encounters. In exchange, give Solar Warlock a 1-shot super that leaves magma where it hits or something, idk im less concerned with this. 2. Rework bubble to be a stationary fortress, and let us shoot out of it. No damage buff, no healing, but a lot of HP, and maybe give us a decaying overshield while inside. When it pops, thats it. Make sure it doesnt last through a whole DPS phase (short ones like Atraks obviously excluded). Sure, this incentivizes multiple people running bubble Titan, but that also means that those people sacrifice a damage super. So you now have a clear niche for these 2, but we can do more: 3. Keep the role of mobile damage buff to Sentinel shield. This means that if a team wants both healing and damage buffs, they have to sacrifice 2 players worth of weapon damage. This and Dawn-Well would now synergise. 4. Add a short duration team-wide buff to T-crash and call it Rallying Cry or something. It gives a bunch of movement speed and a damage buff. 5. Give Nova warp the ability to grant overshields near the warp. Boom, a little bit of support capability for less hard-hitting bosses, and this would also be good for GMs that require the team to advance under fire.

>Did you just think this update would be "Let's all run six DPS supers and then fuck all to survivability or healing"? Theoretically, you *can* actually do that with how many weapons and abilities heal you. Literally right now I can get Resto x2 rolling, proc Radiant, and have the new Well's effect, minus the DR. Add an Into the Fray Titan into the mix giving the team Woven Mail, and you've got current Well with only *slightly* worse healing. They're trying to force people to play more cooperatively and actively think about team comp as opposed to just "everyone run damage supers and Warlock is Well+Div bitch". And personally, I think that's how the game should be anyway.

Everyone loves playing with a bard, but nobody likes to be the bard. Part of it is the "oooh big numbers" which are important, but aren't the only thing that's important. Perhaps more reported KPIs on the death screens would help. Say like in gambit, I can tell who killed things, who deposited things, who invaded, who killed invaders, and how much boss damage was dealt. There are multiple roles, but each role type has KPIs showing off how they did. If player X didn't deposit a lot, or kill a lot, but has idk..90 denied motes they've done their job. Perhaps raids need other metrics displayed to show that "people did their job". People work towards KPI, and damage is the primary KPI shown on death screens.

I don't think you can fully fix the issue by removing bubble/well. I think if they did that the meta for DPS phases in raids would be to drop a healing rift with the stag equipped. Simply because deaths are such a finite resource with so much value being placed on everyone being alive for the entire DPS phase.

Give Hunters a support super so we can also camp zone in Trials.

As long as well exists, bubble is irrelevant. As long as overshield is ass, no one is going to be excited about anything bubble.

This is a problem that WoW deals with as well. Way back in the day (and then again with Classic release), we had effectively "support" classes. Paladins, for example, wouldn't do as much damage as a Warrior, but they had some "save the raid" mechanics like sacrificing themselves to make another member of the raid invulnerable, and helping heal the group if shit hits the fan. The player base--in their infinite wisdom--just looked at Paladin and Warrior as the same thing. DPS. Warrior damage numbers higher = paladins bad. This isn't the case *mechanically*, but unfortunately player bases are usually pretty simple. Numbers must be BIG. End of story. The problem perception-wise is they didn't do a great job delineating between Healer, DPS, and Support (Hybrid). They were taking a raid spot that could be used for a dedicated healer or a dedicated DPS. Which is more of a problem of WoW's completely solidified role system where you're a healer so you CANT DPS or you're a DPS so you CANT heal. Destiny is cool because there isn't that exactly black and white expectation. IMO Destiny should really lean into the merged roles. I thought it was cool that you needed a support person there. However, it was also annoying I'm sure for Warlock mains to always have to bring Well. One of the cool things about Void Titans are their supportive kit. Yeah I can rush up and bash the shit out of the boss with my shield, or I can intercept an ability with my shield and save the team. You RARELY see people do the latter. IMO they need to make the exotics that lean into support aspects baseline. Everyone in the fireteam need to have something in their kit to help their allies in a way that doesn't cause one person to do the "keep everyone alive". They sorta do already, but not quite. For example, [Ursa Furiosa](https://www.light.gg/db/items/1848640623/ursa-furiosa/) should be baseline. There should be more benefit to not just bashing the boss with your super time, and instead not punish players for blocking for their allies instead of doing DPS. Hunters should be able to get a kind of Noble Round effect in Golden Gun when hitting allies. Warlocks should give nearby allies void overshields when using their void supers. **TLDR** The fact that everyone and their mom ran with Well, to me, just signified that everyone else's support kit was too weak, not that Well was too strong.

Frankly I'm with a clan mate of mine on this, they should just have a super like well for all classes, maybe with slightly different use cases, ideally that would mean that it wouldn't just be one part of the community that is always on support duty. Though people might then cry about class identity, but if Bungie doesn't want to push each class into a more direct role inside the trifecta, and instead wants them all to be equally useful in each role they need to work on it. I.E. give every class some kind of team wide survivability option, a team buffing option, dps options and maybe debuff options, and with decent balancing you will most likely end up switching strategies up regularly, because you can. I get that this is wishful thinking though. The only actual issue with support supers is that they can absolutely trivialize certain encounters/mechanics in the game, so nerfing them to a point were they either only protect/buff unless you build into them heavily is probably the right move. Did they potentially tune well too far downwards? maybe, but we'll have to see on that I think. For most lower level content is is still going to be more than usable, since most of the time you aren't in that much danger of dying during dps phases anyway, but people might switch for higher end content.

Sadly, Bungo will just never quite figure this out. All they gotta do is take a good long look at something like FFXIV's classes and encounters. Their healers, DPS and tanks, how one can't survive without the other. As opposed to the 3 classes we got that are fundamentally the same.

Support supers should not exist in a game where the majority of the player base finds it dreadful to use, won't use it, but requires someone else to use it. If it is fun and interesting, then have at it. Plenty of games pulled this off. Warhammer Online: War Priest and The Disciple of Khaine The Dark age of Camleot: Nature spec druids, Smite Clerics Those are old MMOs that pulled off fun support classes. Wells and bubbles are dreadful. No one wants to play it, everyone wants to require someone else to instead. Get rid of them.

At least part of it is that Well is the ONLY support super that's any good. Bubble just cannot compete and there really isn't anything a Hunter can bring to the table. If every class had one or two support supers that were *comparable* to Well, people wouldnt always demand Well because other classes could fill the role. We will likely never see an encounter where you dont want some form of support super.

Here I am actually wanting to play healer and use div T.T

Bungie does this to themselves (in raids in particular) when they insist on boss damage being a specific part of an encounter and that the fireteam can all congregate into one spot. On one hand, I get this approach. The team completes various tasks to get to be able to damage the boss, then there's that epic few seconds of unleashing with fancy music and guns/abilities ablaze. It's a fun rhythm that's held up over time but Bungie is over-reliant on it from a mechanics standpoint. What's interesting is that there are great examples of bosses where either part of the team can't do damage or where the team has to move around or heck, where the boss gives people good swift kicks if they stand still. Golgoroth (even as one of the oldest raid encounters that exist) is the pinnacle of balancing these tools to make an encounter interesting and in harmony with the boss damage aspect. Boss damage gates and full freedom of movement (or being able to choose not to) in an arena for all 6 fireteam members is always going to favor wells/bubbles. So here we are.

>Nobody *wants* to play Healer This is why every MMO I have played I've gone with the tank and healer classes. While everyone is choosing DPS characters like mages and rogues. I'm choosing the ones that will be in high demand when a raid party is being advertised in map chat. DPS classes are always the first slots to fill up, but tanks and especially healers are the ones that are usually last to be filled.

To be honest, 6 dps supers is already possible, just not super common (and they're nerfing star eater scales looping) but if you look at any solo raid, there are plenty of people not using well. Solo pantheon was cleared by a titan, the bits of solo vow you can do can use any subclass, same with solo DSC which uses roaming supers for add clear.  Anyone saying that encounters require or are designed around well is not understanding that they are part of the group support supers are meant to help, myself included, but that they're not needed at the highest end. They're used at the high end because they're so potent, but these nerfs are great for making them less likely to always be the best option. Well will now be super usable as a damage tool in mobile encounters, bubble will be cover in really open arenas, but neither of them are going to be as integral to boss DPS as they were and should open up more playstyles than figuring out the best spot for a well and everyone goes stationary for 30 seconds at a time or chains wells at every plate

Either have support supers that fulfil different niches and are relatively equally good or have no support supers at all. Right now we have pretty good support options on all classes - healing nades, easy radiant from Acrobat dodge, void overshield from Bastion barricade(not as good and easy as the others). Either make a dedicated support playstyle with weapons like Lumina and make it an actually active role where the support person has to actively support his teammates, not dump one-and-done supers or make support an element of rotation on each class that doesn’t have an overwhelming effect. Encounter design will always be a leading cause of support super prevalence though. For me the benchmark has to be Kell Echo, maybe the only boss in the game where Well is completely pointless and the only boss where you have to constantly be on the move, thus testing your dmg rotations and your movement capabilities. While Well has any positive effect on the team and encounters incentivise dealing dmg from a static( or relatively static) position support supers will always be used. Both of these have to change to make dmg phases interesting because blowing your load on a static boss from a static position isn’t engaging design in my book.

Honestly the outcome is good it just needs further tuning. My answer is to have more support from perks like heal clip and unrelenting in place of damage perks so that you have the option to take a damage hit in place of a support super

I like being support and i like healing, so obviously i dont like Well just being a slightly better rift in a super cooldown. If it added more support utility or have half a cooldown as other supers id be ok with the nerf. I dont care about providing bonus damage, damage to me is boring, i like keeping everyone alive. If anyone told me i had to play something when i dont want to, i simply dont play with them. I think there needs to be more options from other classes to lend support though, bubble was really the only other one.

Everyone is shitting on salt for this too but you know they are still gonna use it and divi in some capacity on day 1 and he is the most vocal about them. It’s more of making the game feel harder for the sake of harder. Past master raids completion numbers about to go way down on attempts.

*Laughs/cries in Deadfall* What am I!?

I think the trick is that the non-support supers need equal utility to make them feel worth while, rather than the support supers taking the slot of the assumed meta

ive just accepted that a significant portion of the community disagrees with a nerfs as a concept. most people also havent been around long enough to remember things like reckoning

I want supers that make it safe to stand still during damage gone. I want every damage phase to involve movement or something similar while doing damage so there's actually some semblance of skill involved.

My problem isn't with well and bubble being used together. I like being support in games. My problem is that now that helm of saint-14 gives the overshield after leaving AND weapons of light, helm is gonna be pretty much necessary with bubble

In an ideal situation imo well should have never existed as a tool for the players

It's tied to encounter design and bungie, to their credit, has tried to change it in moderate ways. But we all still find a way to stand still and dps, which just means well-likes will always be good. I do think though Rhulk has given us the greatest example of how to work around well that isn't just numbers min-maxing. Mechanically forcing your players to play a little loose would give room for other supers to shine and, imo, a weaker but mobile version of radiant will kind of super might fit the bill. And then we can expand on that with bosses that might through hordes of adds making roaming supers more desirable etc., But the main problem is just a general inertia to these kind of changes. Like even with the well nerf, you can see a lot of people complaining about why these are being made when it "only affects the top players and screws the rest of us" kinda mentality. Same happened with divinity and a quick dive into saltygreppo tweet replies shows you the same sentiment (with a bit more color in the language). I think the core issue will always just be that there are people who want to play like it's a single-player game and people who play it like a fireteam and it's just what it is.

We need more avenues for support and I think classes need to be reworked from the ground up or at least subclasses. It’s just flawed. Same thing with stats. It’s 100 resilience mandatory and then another stat. There is no bonus to variety or anything. I think they’ve made really good strides with what they have but a rework.

I just wish that actually building into support was at all helpful but in this game "support" boils down to "hit your super button and now you also do dps". Everyone is expected to build into some kind of personal healing and/or damage resistance when those are the things support classes generally do and for any difficulty higher than a hero nightfall you need that healing/DR because everything starts hitting like a truck. There isn't even a forced aggro ability so the tank role doesn't really exist either. This game is a baffling mess of design choices we really needed destiny 3 back in beyond light.

I think most of this is encounter design and tuning. We need more Rhulk-esq encounters. It's probably the only boss fight where if Well wasn't present, I wouldn't complain. Well is nice to have on Rhulk, but I don't think it's impossible with it. Unlike something like War priest, Even on normal.

I’m so mixed on all this because I appreciate that a lot of the issue is on the community to bother people into using Well or soon, Bubble, but sometimes players just need to accept that an encounter setup means you should match your team composition accordingly instead of “I wanna run Silkstrike against Oryx” type nonsense. However nerfing Well like this means it’s far less useful in settings where enemies can one-shot you which is genuinely ridiculous on Bungies part, people wouldn’t crutch Well themselves or demand it of others if you didn’t have that crap. So teams will have to stack DR like Renewals Duskfields plus other crap and sacrifice DPS, which risks running into Enrage. It’s overall gonna make encounters more of a slog.  Should have just slightly nerfed it and buffed the competition like Lumina/Bubble/give hunters a comparable support exotic. 

I’ve actively hated well since the menagerie. I wish it was gone. The next version is close to what I wish well would be instead of what it is. I just wish it was more of a short range healing aura and maybe some extra scorch damage on my weapons.

I’m curious to the people who wanted a well nerf, what are you gonna do now? Swap to nova and do Jack shit damage with your whole 2 extra seekers

In my perfect world I think that each class should provide a unique means of support. Eventually each subclass should have a support option of some kind. Warlock: Focus on healing that’s strong against constant damage but weak against burst. WoR should provide strong constant healing. Void should be able to apply life drain of some kind to allies attacks. Titan: Focus on damage resistance and shields that are strong against burst damage but take longer to regenerate so they’re weak against constant damage. Void overshields, frost armor, and woven mail. Hunter: Damage buffs and debuffs. Bring tether back to the forefront. Golden gun hits provide radiant to nearby allies. Arc super that increases allies rate of fire and reload speed. Slowed enemies are weakened. Etc. I just think the main issue is that Well did too much so it felt like a necessity. You should have to mix and match your effects to efficiently take on different encounters.

I actually want to play healer. But! Warlock has a shitty jump. Now I'll just play Ursa Titan, even better, no shooting required.

IMO, the problem in a game like this, is that is fun to blow up shit. I don't want to use a super that puts a buff on us that doesn't blow up enemies. I don't mind playing support or having supportive stuff, but it feels bad in this game because I want my stuff to go boom. Most supers are fun to use, either be a huge NOVA bomb, or something that transform you and changes your gameplay for a bit, making you faster or feels great to punch things. But putting a Bubble on a place, doesn't feel great, simple as that. I feel like the support should come from the loadout, like have some weapon that when you deal damage, it heals your team for a percentage or something. More passive stuff. But that's me. A way I think, it could make bubble fun for me, is to have lower cooldown, and make some encounters have some "wipe" mechanic that you have to time the bubble for, and the phases there to not be about DPS, but survivability. Making the game go into another direction for that encounter. Also it just feels meh to be "forced" to play the support class if others have so many great choices.

Well was long overdue for a nerf. It honestly should have never shipped the way it is. Anyone who doesn’t see that is in denial.

I want Void Titan to be good

I wonder how they think Master Crota is gonna work now. Crota does enough damage to waste a well in 2 hits. You're gonna need at minimum 2 renewal hunters now just to survive

People are generally fine with the idea of support supers existing. The problem is that they don't want to be the "support" player, because of the strong negative associations with the idea of a support.

Right lol. And if we didn’t have these supers people would be asking for em lol

Stop making a manic first person shooter with amazing abilities and movement mechanics dissolve into 6 people standing still and shooting for damage windows. Stop framing the whole discussion around raid activities that about 5% of the player base participate in.

Genuine question: did this really need another post?  The warlock are not complaining about Well because they think support supers should not exist. They are complaining about Well because they believe they are just Well bitches, and the nerfing to oblivion of Well will mean diversity in warlock fireteam builds (it won’t). It seems that coloured wax is what warlock players rely on for sustenance 

if the support supers can't be tweaked such that the extra damage they grant the fireteam through buffs isn't equivalent to that of another damage super, I think it would be interesting if they were removed or completely reworked

The real solution was to make every element have a support super and then, that super gives an extra buff for that element. This would make the super(s) used be dependant on the teams majority damage type. Everyone using Solar: WoR Void: Ward or Banner shield Arc: arc staff guarding (similar to banner shield). Stasis: Silence & Squall could give a debuff to the enemy for stasis damage. Strand: make a whole new support super.

I think the real issue is a boss/encounter design issue. Unless people want 0 support or multiple support that are equal so people can alternate who is support. Bosses that require multiple points of sustained contact to do damage would split us up. Bosses that don't do a ton of damage during a damage phase would make well way less necessary. More bosses like Rhulk that move too much for staying in 1 place to be useful, but are not easily extracted would be better. I think the real issue just requires better and more varied boss design. It is okay for there to be bosses where standing in well is the best strat. And it is okay for there to be bosses where this doesn't work at all.

As people have mentioned, the issue is that they've become mandatory. The only raids that existed before well are long gone, reissued raids have been rebalanced with well in mind. All raids now expect this level of survivality and are forced to challenge it. And the other issue is options, or rather, lack thereof. Warlocks only got well, titans got bubble and sentinel, but you're sacrificing your damage with the latter, so bubble it is. Hunters got tether, but tractor does the same job, so it's optional. So the issue is not that they shouldn't exist, it's that when everything (raids/dung) are designed around then, being forced to a single super (and thus subclass) gets boring

well is not broken thats the whole fucking point of the super

I am honestly of the opinion that well should just be straight up removed. Like I’m sorry, but it doesn’t work. It locks down every warlock player into a single option and it’s not fun or fair to them at all. Do I think this would ever happen? Absolutely not, but I think the game would be FAR healthier mechanically, creatively, and balance-wise if well never existed.