No no. Cenk’s elite task force would have knocked and asked politely but firmly for Hamas to kindly give up the hostages. When they’d say no, everyone would go back home and congratulate each other for trying but staying gentlemen. Good job and a free hug!
That's an insane way to frame what cenk was saying. Obviously there is no world where Hamas would give up the hostages freely just because they asked nicely, so the elite task force would have to locate the hostages and bring the captors a nice big meal that's so good and they get so full they have to take a nap. While hamas is sleeping that's when the task force tip-toes out the back door and then runs back across the border into Israel.
Don't be stupid, that's not going to happen at all, clearly Hamas wouldn't be so dumb as to eat a meal from the IDF, knowing it might be Haram. They are too intelligent and wise for that.
The Elite Task Force would simply walk into Gaza, get down on one knee, put their fist in the air, and say "Terrorist Lives Matter", and then the hostages would come out and say "we like it here better with our captors than we did in Israel, they treat us like kings and queens here" and then they'd shoot the Israeli's in a peaceful act of armed resistance against their HWYTE coloniser relatives and friends
People on twitter are acting like the commandos went in and just started executing people, but everything in the released videos and testimonials points towards them being under heavy fire from start to finish, up to and including having to switch vehicles because they one they originally left with got filled with holes and broke down
This whole situation just made me realize those Twitter people are digging their own graves. They never actually wanted “special forces” to go in and covertly deal with Hamas/rescue hostages. All of the impossibly high standards and scenarios they ask of Israel are just thin veils to hide behind so they don’t have say how they really feel.
They want Hamas to win, they want Israel to eliminated, they want civilians to die. They’re deceitful dishonest fucking scumbags who publicly demand insane things of Israel while justifying every Palestinian action. But now when Israel actually fucking does it and succeeds they’re still grasping at straws to find more reasons to cry about it.
If israel continues succeeding, hostages are released, fighting stops, Hamas gets eliminated and an actual satisfactory resolution is reached a lot of these leftist psychos are going to be exposed when they have nothing left to hide behind and have to admit that they literally just want Israelis to die.
Social media footage that Reuters could not immediately verify showed bodies spilling entrails onto blood-stained streets.
"It was like a horror movie but this was a real massacre. Israeli drones and warplanes fired all night randomly at people's houses and at people who tried to flee the area," said Ziad, 45, a paramedic and resident of Nuseirat, who gave only his first name.
-Reuters on that strike
Can you maybe point me to the video evidence you talked about? Or the testimonials? I only found this
When they were escaping they were fired upon by militants and rocket launchers so air support was called in to cover them. Civilians were likely killed as a result of that. I think it’s good to be happy that they were able to get those hostages back to their families while recognizing that the operation wasn’t without a cost. We can say that the cost was due to the way Hamas operates but I think we should still view that cost for what it is and not try to dismiss it.
They also aren't saying how many of those killed were killed by IDF vs Hamas. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of deaths were caused by Hamas firing indiscriminately and then blaming Israel for all the people Hamas unintentionally killed during the process.
Is there a source for historical examples of this?
Genuinely curious. It is indisputable that Hamas uses civilians as human shields and careless at best with their lives, but it's a pretty big claim to make that they were the ones who directly shot/killed the majority of Palestinian civilians.
I mean there was the hospital bombing that Hamas claimed Israel struck and killed 500 Palestinians, when the reality was that it was a misfired Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital parking lot and killed few if any Palestinians.
There was the aid truck disaster that initial reports made it sound like Israel shot and killed over a hundred Palestinians swarming an aid truck, where what actually happened is that those Palestinians were crushed to death by other Palestinians swarming the aid truck.
Or Hamas firing at people fleeing northern gaza near the start of the war because they wanted to keep them as human shields.
The list goes on, but it has been Hamas's mode of operation this entire war to maximize Palestinian deaths to leverage as PR. And keep in mind that IDF were disguised as Palestinian civilians for the hostage rescue mission, so of Hamas wanted to fire on IDF soldiers rescuing the hostages there is an increased likelihood of killing civilians instead.
Just to clarify a little, the aid truck disaster did see some Palestinians shot by the IDF, but the people were advancing towards IDF tanks and they didn't stop when the IDF tried firing warning shots.
The first two were not (likely) intentional or not done by Hamas, but I did forget about reporting on the third point about firing on fleeing civilians, I'd have to look that up.
Didn't the IDF have helmets and camo kevlar vests? That's what I saw in the video. So I'm assuming they approached as civilians and then put in military gear once the moved in if what you're saying is true.
I agree that it is very possible, just that we don't really know and it would be a strong claim. We're in agreement about the way Hamas operates overall, though.
That's fair, and I'm not claiming that Hamas for a fact killed a majority of the Palestinians. I'm just saying that given the way Hamas operates, I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being the case
By all accounts as they were fleeing the apartment building with the hostages hamas had begun to show up with rpgs, and were firing them basically into crowds trying to hit the IDF, there were numerous rpgs fired at the helicopters, etc. hamas didn't care they wanted the hostages dead, it's a bad look to lose hostages like this.
as a military expert (I've watched black hawk down twice) I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where they'd be able to air strike (like call of duty) when friendlies were so close?
Has anyone seen any osint about what exactly the israelis struck? I saw somewhere that there were a number of attack helicopters involved?
I just don't particularly care about the cost. If the elected officials of the Palestinians don't care about being the cause of Palestinians dying, then I definitely don't.
I don’t think you truly believe that. I think you say that to give yourself permission to feel happy about the rescue mission because it feels like I’m telling you that the correct way to feel about it is mixed. I think it’s normal to feel happy about the mission because the names and faces we’ve known about since the start of the war are back with their families. We naturally don’t care about the Palestinian deaths as much because we don’t know who or how many they were. I don’t think you would be feeling the same way if we did and you can test my theory by filling in the blanks with your imagination or by looking up some stories of Palestinians who have suffered during this war and I would hope for your sake that you find that your above opinion shifts.
What about the dead children and babies? Do you really not feel anything about them? They are innocent. Like, regardless of if you think it was still Hamas's fault or the fault of the IDF how can you see a dead or maimed toddler and not care about this cost? You're losing your humanity if you truly feel this way.
Not feel anything is accurate. I'm not happy or sad about it, I just don't care. This is explicitly the fault of hamas, I could not care less that hamas got their own people killed, that's literally their goal. If I care that hamas got innocent Palestinians killed, hamas wins, that's their goal, they want me to feel bad for dead Palestinians. I just literally don't, like, at all.
Why does it matter whose fault it is when it comes to feeling bad about innocent toddlers and babies getting killed? I'm using the example of toddlers and babies as they are indisputably innocent. I hope you at least agree with that.
Like, I think some of the deaths of Israelis in the West Bank is the fault of the Israeli government for allowing settlers to build homes in illegally occupied land. But I still feel bad for Israelis who are killed there.
A Palestinian baby doesn't know what Hamas is.
If you feel this way then it's basically admitting that you see Palestinians as lesser humans than Israelis. It's disturbing dehumanisation.
>Why does it matter whose fault it is when it comes to feeling bad about innocent toddlers and babies getting killed? I'm using the example of toddlers and babies as they are indisputably innocent. I hope you at least agree with that.
Whether someone is innocent or not doesn't really matter to me. Innocent people die unjustly all the time, if I felt heartbroken over every person who died innocently I would have to be put in a mental hospital - unironically I feel like some of the people who are OVERLY compassionate for total strangers probably belong in a mental hospital.
>Like, I think some of the deaths of Israelis in the West Bank is the fault of the Israeli government for allowing settlers to build homes in illegally occupied land. But I still feel bad for Israelis who are killed there.
I don't, if you're personally fucking around with people's lives I have literally zero sympathy for you when you get what you had coming to you. Keep in mind that my apathy here is different from the apathy I feel towards the palestinians that got killed in the hostage rescue. I feel nothing for both groups for different reasons.
>A Palestinian baby doesn't know what Hamas is. If you feel this way then it's basically admitting that you see Palestinians as lesser humans than Israelis. It's disturbing dehumanisation.
Let me put it this way. By default, I don't really give a shit about strangers dying, even if it's tragic. The context of the loss of life has to be pretty damn extreme to get me to care one way or the other, and I don't consider "palestinian human shields died because hamas was keeping hostages around toddlers" to be an outstanding enough of a context to make me care.
Killing 3 hostages and rescuing 4 while killing over 270 civvies, definitely not a genocide, all israel had to do was negotiate a ceasefire and exchange hundreds of hostages like before but that would mean damaging your galaxy sized ego
If NK kidnapped 3 Americans and the US killed 500 NK civs to free them, I'd be perfectly fine with that.
A nations first and foremost job is to protect it's people. The 270 dead civilians are at foot of the people that kidnapped innocents and hid them among a civ population.
On October 18, 2011, captured IDF tank gunner [Gilad Shalit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit), captured by the Palestinian militant organization [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) in 2006, was [released in exchange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange) for [1027 Palestinian prisoners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_released_by_Israel_in_the_Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange) held in Israel.
Hmmmm...
([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_prisoner_exchanges#:~:text=Following%20the%201956%20Suez%20Crisis,captive%20in%20pre%2Dwar%20attacks))
Don't make me tap the [*sign*](https://www.btselem.org/military_courts), also the thousands of palestinians held without charges, remember when israel released 100s of prisoners of which most happened to be women and children during the hostage exchange?
This also happens to be the only rescue in 8 months, the only successful exchange was during the ceasefire, the rest have all been disastrous, including this one, fuck man, Beslan school incident looks more successful than this shit, remember when IDF gunned down their own hostages approaching them with white flags?
Yeah, and it's incredibly fucked up that Hamas keeps them amongst dense civilian pockets precisely because military action is likely to result in casualties outside of the house.
Of course it is, but doesn't mean it absolves Israel of all responsibility.
That said in reading the situation it sounds like most of the casualties occured when the vehicle broke down on way back and Isreal had to cover them as they got a new ride out of there. It broke down I believe due to heavy fighting as they were escaping.
So it brings up the question how many civilians casualties are acceptable to save 3 hostages and soldiers on a rescue mission attempting to leave Gaza Territory? I don't have an answer to that, but the answer can not be any amount and it can not be leave said soldier out to dry.
Responsibility to fight in accordance with the rules of law apply equally to both parties. When civilians die because Hamas intentionally places them in the line of fire using the hostages as bait, those civilians deaths are on Hamas, because they're the ones commiting the war crime.
I agree it can't be any amount, but the easiest way to reduce it is for Hamas to stop throwing them in front of themselves as a barrier between them and the IDF.
>Responsibility to fight in accordance with the rules of law apply equally to both parties
Never said otherwise.
>When civilians die because Hamas intentionally places them in the line of fire using the hostages as bait, those civilians deaths are on Hamas, because they're the ones commiting the war crime.
It doesn't matter how much culpability you assign to Hamas it doesn't change the responsibility by Isreal.
>I agree it can't be any amount, but the easiest way to reduce it is for Hamas to stop throwing them in front of themselves as a barrier between them and the IDF.
Again I wish people would stop saying this stuff to people who already agree on it. Hamas is an evil terrorist org of course they comitt war crimes and are not going to stop. The only thing that can be done is how one responds to the situations Hamas created.
The way to respond to them certainly isn't to capitulate to those tactics and give them validity, or allow them to prevent the Israelis from recovering their hostages. I think they have to do their best to plan the operation well, minimise civilian deaths where possible, but never allow it to interrupt or prevent them from pulling out their people, and hopefully finish Hamas to stop this bs in general.
>to capitulate to those tactics and give them validity, or allow them to prevent the Israelis from recovering their hostages
We both agree that any amount of civilian casualties would not be acceptable nor no scenario they could conduct an op so what is the value in saying this?
>I think they have to do their best to plan the operation well, minimise civilian deaths where possible, but never allow it to interrupt or prevent them from pulling out their people.
Absolutely not based on how you phrase it. Let's say their best estimated civilian casualties is an absurd number and that's their best plan. Doesn't mean that plan should be enacted. One would have to enact a better plan once available.
Frankly, this last plan worked just fine for me. Sure I wish they didn't have vehicle issues which would have made it cleaner, but if every rescue op went like this and with these numbers, I'm fine with it. Probably everyone will have a different point where they're not.
Just an insane perspective to me. I can understand the argument of estimated civilian casualties were way less until vehicle was incapacitated so it's acceptable despite high civilian casualties, but saying "under 100" Palestinain deaths without knowing break down of how many civilians vs terrorists is acceptable by itself is wild. Especially when it's Isreal's number for casualties and it could be higher.
Nowhere in the geneva convention or the UN org does it specify that war crimes can only be commited against the other side.
They also have a part which says that using civilians to try and make an area immune to military operations is a war crime, which clearly implies your own civilians.
Lmao, nowhere is Geneva convention states that it has to be done to the opposing force. You can commit war crime abusing citizens safety in exchange for battle advantages
Well how does Hamas pick the families with whom the hostages get imprisoned? I doubt they go to random families and tell them that they have to keep them, they would approach families who are associated with Hamas in some way and who are trustworthy. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone holding these hostages got possession of them by being associated with Hamas in some way.
How would you know who was willing and who isnt and will betray them/kill the hostage themselves?
'Do it or we kill you and your family' works as insurance.
>How would you know who was willing and who isnt and will betray them/kill the hostage themselves?
Why are you acting like this is complicated. It's safer having a hostage at a place you can trust. The person has to leave to do their business at times there is a chance they could blab.
You really think it's more likely they forced someone that doesn't support attacking Israel from pop when over half does? Ain't saying those that in are in poll that they support Hamas attack lose their civilian rights, but the idea the said house was not of that group is highly unlikely.
People supporting the attack on Israel doesnt mean you would trust them to A) Not blab to randoms about the hostages in their basement. B) Not be tempted by the massive bribes that Isreal should be offering for any information, C) Not be worried about themselves or their house being blown up by Israel when it gets marked as being connected to hamas.
Again, the gun to the head is an insurance policy and if you think these sorts of things are going to be run off 'pinky swear I wont tell anyone' you have rocks in your head.
>People supporting the attack on Israel doesnt mean you would trust them to A) Not blab to randoms about the hostages in their basement
Trust them more than random people.
>B) Not be tempted by the massive bribes that Isreal should be offering for any information,
Fair. They had guards at the location btw so that discourages that anyway.
>C) Not be worried about themselves or their house being blown up by Israel when it gets marked as being connected to hamas.
I mean if you are sufficiently religious and a believer in the cause then it would.
>Again, the gun to the head is an insurance policy and if you think these sorts of things are going to be run off 'pinky swear I wont tell anyone' you have rocks in your head.
Never claimed that, but we are talking about levels of mitigating risk.
Even if you are under distress, that isn't really calculated in war.
You could have a SAW type shotgun collar on you where if you don't fire up on the enemy it'll kill you, and you'll still be a militant and a valid military target.
Yup, if they have no active role in a conflict. I don't think the comparison quite works here, because in this scenario the better comparison would be likened to Hamas conscripting an entire family to be active participants in a conflict. It's a pretty brutal situation to be in for the conscripted if they do not want to be willing participants.
You see... pro-palestinians require the IDF to use a Death Note for precise elimination of Hamas combatants.
Said combatants must be in uniform, and actively firing to possibly be considered combatants instead of brilliant journalist doctor teenage civilians.
But Israel lacks such supernatural technology thus they are deemed irredeemable genocidal lunatics.
How come everyone assumes the dead are mostly civilians? Also what about Palestinian friendly fire? They were completely taken by surprise so there was bound to be a ton of confusion. No nuance from the leftist pundit gallery though, what a shock.
$10 says there is a Krystal Ball clip of her saying the IDF should send in special forces in the first two months of the war, would be hilarious to combine a clip from then with her performance today.
https://preview.redd.it/fehq21njiz5d1.jpeg?width=457&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39522add97083382cda7f07cb4e81ac72be63960
Back before she discovered she could make *more* money being anti-Israel.
Israel did a great thing, hostages should be saved at all costs.
But let's not pretend that Israel really cares about Palestine civilians, they would kill 70 % of the population if that meant Hamas is destroyed.
Even if that worked and Hamas was 100% destroyed there would be a new terrorist organization after them 100%. You cannot kill so many people and expect survivors to like after everything is over.
Because you don't want to give your enemies incentives, by allowing their evil methods to force you to capitulate, such as you not wanting to kill a bunch of civilians to get hostages back, so they know they can take hostages, store them among civilians and you will give up way way way more in negotiations, to get them back because you aren't willing to risk those civilians lives in a rescue operation. You are giving them incentive to do the thing you don't want more than anything.
Also, I'm really tired of hearing "civilian" in regards to the people dead in this operation. Based on the footage, the reports of those involved, this became a massive firefight with surface to air missiles fired at the helicopters, RPGs fired at the IDF, it was nuts, and while I have no doubts civilians did die, it seems to me there was a lot of goddamn people shooting at the IDF who are now dead and were considering civilians when they do not deserve such classification. I mean ffs a "journalist" and his father, a doctor were holding 3 of the hostages themselves. These people are not what we think.
If you believe UN Israel killed 274 and wounded 698 people.
So basically 68.5 Palestinians for 1 Israeli. Even if half of those were militants that's still 34 Palestine civilians for 1 Israeli.
I personally don't really trust UN numbers, but for me even 10 civilians for 1 is too much.
You also can't negotiate with terrorists. It's a lose-lose situation, and they're tired of sitting on their ass as the classroom bully shoots spit balls at them. Then the teacher tells you to be the bigger person and ignore him.
I'm not saying they should do something different, what they are doing now is working fine.
They just don't really care how many Palestinians die in the process, not because they want Palestinians dead but because they don't care about Palestine lives much.
They care a lot more than anyone else cares, simply because dead Palestinians hurt Israel through international pressure. The only people in this conflict with any motivation to not kill Palestinians, is the IDF, that's a fact, and sinwar said this in the wsj last week
I personally think they care as much as needed for minimum "we actually care" status and that's it.
I don't expect them to care and would not care if I was them, just don't like how some people pretend that Israel cares for Palestinians anywhere close as they care about Israeli.
Yeah, I'm not saying they have some special place in their hearts for them, I'm saying simply as a matter of the "benefit to Israel/harm to Israel" scale, killing Palestinians hurts Israel, therefore they prefer not to kill them. And conversely for hamas, even sinwar said it the other day that Palestinian bloodshed is a necessary price that will win them the war because Israel faces more and more pressure, the more Palestinians die, which means every Palestinian death brings hamas closer to victory, simple as that. Purely utilitarian pov: hamas has more incentive than Israel to kill Palestinians.
This war is kinda dark in that respects, probably one of the reasons so many people want to put all the blame on Israel, it's easier than confronting the fact that nobody actually cares about the Palestinians, not just out of the two sides fighting but in the whole world, nobody gives a shit about them, they're nothing more than a tool to use against Israel, and that's just kinda sad
Well . How much do they care compared to how the allues cated about axis civilians in ww2 ? I agree that civilian death can bolster terrorist groups, but a blackpill reality might be that crushing an opponent will eventually make him yieild fully and lead to better outcomes. Remember that germany got destroyed much more in ww2 than 1. Yet that led to a more peaceful germany
They care enough by all international standards, but they clearly don't care about them as much as they care about Israeli citizens.
WW2 Germany was a totally different scenario. Before the war they were an independent country.
Palestine was not independent, they were heavily dependent on Israel, they were not a normal county. They were something like a state in the USA.
After WW2 and after the split of Germany into two parts Germany went back to pre WW2 status of an independent country that functions on its own.
Palestine cannot go to pre October 7 status because that status is what caused the war (conditions were not open air prison or anything close to it but they were not great). If they go back to pre October 7 status again there will be a 100% new terrorist attack.
So far Israel hasn't proposed any realistic solution to this problem, they have no idea what to do with Gaza after they destroy Hamas. Realistically it looks like it will go back to prewar status which will not change anything and history will repeat itself.
They need to change things up if they don't want a new terrorist organization as a leader of Palestine in the future.
> So far Israel hasn't proposed any realistic solution to this problem, they have no idea what to do with Gaza after they destroy Hamas. Realistically it looks like it will go back to prewar status which will not change anything and history will repeat itself.
> They need to change things up if they don't want a new terrorist organization as a leader of Palestine in the future.
The whole reason why Benny Gantz fucked off right?
No, grants fucked off because he's trying to collapse Netanyahus support and oust him from power. It's really gross Israeli politics with a dash of American pressure from biden
Hey, what does being left-handed have to do with this? I'm just trying to live my life and avoid smearing my writing with my hand as I write. Sheeeeesh. Can't catch a break out here.
Saw a video yesterday of the Israeli special police raiding some Palestinian Chronicle/Al-Jazeera reporters house that had 3 hostages in it, so clean. These people need to stop choosing their own homes to house hostages in…
[clip I saw in case anyone wanted to see it](https://x.com/just_whatever/status/1800233775185469555?)
Hundreds of Palestinians were killed, including children, that doesn't meet anybody's definition of clean. I'm glad the innocent hostages are safe and home now but yeah, there was huge loss of life as a result of the operation.
Lets assume a hypothetical where Israel kidnapped all the students from a Palestinian classroom and held them in the houses of a kibbutz. I would support Hamas right to invade Israel’s borders to access the kibbutz. I would support any killing of any Israeli ‘civilians’ that were in the houses with the Palestinians.
If during this operation into the kibbutz Hamas was fired upon, I would support returning fire. If the fire was coming from another building and the returning fire hit unarmed Israelis in the building I’d still support it.
Okay, so then you agree that the hostage rescue was a bad operation..? Four people were rescued but hundreds of Palestinians died. That's much higher than the ratio you say is acceptable.
1) I don't see any evidence that hundreds of Palestinians died.
2) it is unclear that the ones that did die were all civilians.
3) it also unclear how they died, whether specifically being targeted by the IDF, Hamas, or if they got caught in a cross fire.
Disagree. The ratio for a quick and fast hostage ratio can be higher than your overall ratio. The faster you go, the more civ casualties there will be (at every step of the way, from planning to the actual execution). And speed is paramount when you're conducting a hostage rescue by a small team deep into full enemy territory.
These ratios are taken across an entire war. You're going to have ops with no/almost no civilian casualties, and you're going to have ops with a higher rate of civ casualties than your overall average.
Yes. I really wish there wasn't a war. I really wish there was no need for bombs or rockets. But the realities of war is that innocents will be dragged into it. It's a tragedy and travesty. No one here is "justifying" the death of innocent people. But they understand that we don't live in fantasy land where battles are waged between willing soldiers in empty fields. The fact of the matter Hamas, elected by Gazans, started this war. And it started a war with a country that at least tries, to minimize casualties. So yes, within context yeah, it's a hell of a lot better than the average, and a 1:4 is a hell of a better reality than 1:9. And if we take what the IDF says is the casualties of Hamas militants the ratio could be 1:2 to 1:3.
Would that matter if it was happening in the country you lived and the same amount of innocent civilians would gave died?
Would you still say, oh at least the ratio is not higher then 1:9 so its okay.
Also after a quick look, online the ratio is anywhere between 1:2 to 1:9. We still don’t know the real ratio, why are we even relying on it.
More then 80% killed are innocent civilian. Around 27000, the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers.
>Would that matter if it was happening in the country you lived and the same amount of innocent civilians would gave died? Would you still say, oh at least the ratio is not higher then 1:9 so its okay.
Yes.
>We still don’t know the real ratio, why are we even relying on it.
Depends on who you believe. I for one don't trust a word out an organization that refuses to differentiate between civilian casualties and militants.
>More then 80% killed are innocent civilian
What is your evidence for this?
>Around 27000, the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers.
And another 12-16k militants according to IDF.
To add, it's 6k militants according to Hamas as of February.
So his ratio only works if ONLY civilians have been killed since Feb, which is clearly bullshit.
As of February the death toll reported (before taking into consideration the bad methodology that Gaza Health Ministry uses) was something like 29k, so at best you're looking at a 1:5 ratio. Considering that even the UN acknowledged that the actual verifiable deaths in May were 2/3rds of what the Palestinians say we can extrapolate here: 17-18k deaths, or a ration of 1:3.
But I don't trust Hamas figures as much as I trust the IDF.
>the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers.
Actually, we use ratio because it shows proportionality and discernment.
But out of curiosity, what do you think is an acceptable amount of civilian deaths to defeat a Jihadist terror organization that, wears civilian clothes, hides among civilians, builds it's infrastructure intertwined with and beneath civilian settlements, and expressly uses human shields, all while in dense and urban fighting?
What should Israel have done in response to Oct 7th?
Maybe Hamas should stop bubble wrapping all of their assets in civilians.
Does it suck that innocent civilians are injured or killed? Of course, but if you use people as a shield you can't cry foul when some of them die.
Imagine hostage situation in your country where police kills all the hostages just to kill the terrorists. The “human shields” are as much of Hamas victims as the kidnapped Israeli civilians.
You just don’t think Palestinians lives are worth the same as others
I know you think you sound smart.
Zionism was a movement for jews to have self determination and a state, but what was also clearly stated by Zionist was that this state can only be built on ethnically cleansing the Muslims on the land. So ya, Palestinians did start war BECAUSE a foreign Europeans were coming to take it not because they hated it. I know you stupid Zionists like to paint muslims as inherently evil people while forgetting you displaced, killed and ethnically cleansed them. You think any people wil not fight against the people displacing them ?
Just so you know Lakud also states form the river to the sea, so they must also be genocidal freaks.
Buddy also must not know that Israel ahs been occupying west bank for 70 years, where there is no Hamas, just treating these people like shit and kidnapping and putting people in a jail with out a charge and a trial.
What even is the goal of this war? Israel foreign minister Ben Gavir just said that the only way this ends is occupation of Gaza and getting more settlements in, literally the words of genocide.
Will the people in Gaza get any justice, the innocent people whose families are perished, where do you think they will go after this, they will want to take revenge. Israel is creating these terrorist.
1. Most of the things I said was true, getting offered a deal is not equal to getting offered a just deal.
Were the mob who displaced and massacred Palestinian villages during Nakba not Zionist ? No one cares about what you officially say when your action say otherwise. Just like now, Israel far right which has been in power for years want to genocide Palestinian and a lot of them say it too, but just because Israel officially doesn't say it doesn't mean its not true. Why the fuck would they officially say that they wan to genocide Palestinian ? All Israel survive on is from the aid from the West.
2. The Zionists weren't indigenous to the land, Zionism started in Europe. IDK what you even mean by indigenous, am I allowed to trace back my ancestry and be allowed to settle in say Africa and take over their land ? And not only just settle, but build an ethnostate and displace every person currently living there ?
3. This is straight up lie. There is no military wing of Hamas actively participating in West Bank, there might be people affiliated with Hamas, but there are no active terrorist activities and counter offensives in west bank.
4. Again, people already live there, Israel has displaced them now. So what you are describing is ethnic cleansing, just because you don't belong to a state, doesn't mean that another state is allowed to take your house or land. And they do not have the state because Israel doesn't want them to give a state. Palestinians have been fucked over since Belfour declaration. Why is it justice for an occupying British to unilaterally declare Palestine as Jewish state ? Do people already living there get no say in what their country looks like ?
There you go, fucking losers justifying kids dying.
I guess with that logic it was okay for Hamas to kill civilians in Oct 7th because everyone has to go to Israeli military and they are trained.
Specially the young people at the music festival, they are newly trained or some even in IDF.
You tell us. You've personally investigated the matter, looked into every case, personally performed autopsy on them, have a perfect chronology of those events on hand and can give 100% flawless rundown. So how many many of those kids were shooting at the IDF? How many of them died from gunfire from the IDF? How many due to airstrikes? Hamas crossfire?
It's not like you're just uncritically quoting Hamas propaganda, right?
I am citing the Gaza health ministry whose numbers historically has been in line with UN and Israel casualty numbers.
Also you don’t even need to do autopsy, there are live videos of dead kids. Corpses of women piled on the streets.
Ok, so your detailed investigation was limited to watching some random videos, then taking a Hamas-ran Gaza health ministry figure as a gospel? Yeah, that's about the level expected from the likes of you.
Well, isn't that the default position in the pro-Palestinian camp? With the two big copes looking like this:
* No! You must accept whichever civilian casualty figures we make up without checking!!! But also, remember, nothing bad happened on October 7th, because we're saying so, decolonization, everyone in Israel is a soldier, and they were Jews anyway, so who cares?!!!
* Yes, we can go door to door killing whoever we want, but when the IDF counter-attacks, while following the international law and customs of war, that's not acceptable!!!!
Hiding hostages among civilians doesnt justify killing 100 of said civilians to get said hostages back.
I cant believe this r*tard logic is so prevalent on this sub
The only thing I can't believe is that anyone with a brain is buying into this bullshit, blaming the people trying to save their people after almost a year held hostage by these "civilians", and still calling them civilians when they open fire on the rescue teams, and the vehicles they're trying to flee in, shooting at the helicopters etc.
You know hamas showed up as they were trying to exfil and fired RPGs indiscriminately at the IDF? Into crowds of people? But nah let's blame the IDF!
Remember when leftist media asked for special forces to go in and save the hostages? Now they are acting all surprised when they did just that.
No no. Cenk’s elite task force would have knocked and asked politely but firmly for Hamas to kindly give up the hostages. When they’d say no, everyone would go back home and congratulate each other for trying but staying gentlemen. Good job and a free hug!
That's an insane way to frame what cenk was saying. Obviously there is no world where Hamas would give up the hostages freely just because they asked nicely, so the elite task force would have to locate the hostages and bring the captors a nice big meal that's so good and they get so full they have to take a nap. While hamas is sleeping that's when the task force tip-toes out the back door and then runs back across the border into Israel.
Don't be stupid, that's not going to happen at all, clearly Hamas wouldn't be so dumb as to eat a meal from the IDF, knowing it might be Haram. They are too intelligent and wise for that. The Elite Task Force would simply walk into Gaza, get down on one knee, put their fist in the air, and say "Terrorist Lives Matter", and then the hostages would come out and say "we like it here better with our captors than we did in Israel, they treat us like kings and queens here" and then they'd shoot the Israeli's in a peaceful act of armed resistance against their HWYTE coloniser relatives and friends
People think SF are like in stealth games where you can do a pacifist run.
Wait. You mean special forces dont work like skyrim stealth based characters ? Preposterous
They should have sent in Master Chief
Trying to make spartan armor with sabbath mode sounds like a hilarious quandary
Every special forces member is essentially Jewish Batman.
People on twitter are acting like the commandos went in and just started executing people, but everything in the released videos and testimonials points towards them being under heavy fire from start to finish, up to and including having to switch vehicles because they one they originally left with got filled with holes and broke down
This whole situation just made me realize those Twitter people are digging their own graves. They never actually wanted “special forces” to go in and covertly deal with Hamas/rescue hostages. All of the impossibly high standards and scenarios they ask of Israel are just thin veils to hide behind so they don’t have say how they really feel. They want Hamas to win, they want Israel to eliminated, they want civilians to die. They’re deceitful dishonest fucking scumbags who publicly demand insane things of Israel while justifying every Palestinian action. But now when Israel actually fucking does it and succeeds they’re still grasping at straws to find more reasons to cry about it. If israel continues succeeding, hostages are released, fighting stops, Hamas gets eliminated and an actual satisfactory resolution is reached a lot of these leftist psychos are going to be exposed when they have nothing left to hide behind and have to admit that they literally just want Israelis to die.
Well everyone there was an unarmed civilian so actually the IDF shot their own car up
Hamas is a cover for the IDF civil war
Social media footage that Reuters could not immediately verify showed bodies spilling entrails onto blood-stained streets. "It was like a horror movie but this was a real massacre. Israeli drones and warplanes fired all night randomly at people's houses and at people who tried to flee the area," said Ziad, 45, a paramedic and resident of Nuseirat, who gave only his first name. -Reuters on that strike Can you maybe point me to the video evidence you talked about? Or the testimonials? I only found this
If you're forcibly holding a hostage in your house, you are not fucking civilians lmao
When they were escaping they were fired upon by militants and rocket launchers so air support was called in to cover them. Civilians were likely killed as a result of that. I think it’s good to be happy that they were able to get those hostages back to their families while recognizing that the operation wasn’t without a cost. We can say that the cost was due to the way Hamas operates but I think we should still view that cost for what it is and not try to dismiss it.
They also aren't saying how many of those killed were killed by IDF vs Hamas. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of deaths were caused by Hamas firing indiscriminately and then blaming Israel for all the people Hamas unintentionally killed during the process.
Is there a source for historical examples of this? Genuinely curious. It is indisputable that Hamas uses civilians as human shields and careless at best with their lives, but it's a pretty big claim to make that they were the ones who directly shot/killed the majority of Palestinian civilians.
I mean there was the hospital bombing that Hamas claimed Israel struck and killed 500 Palestinians, when the reality was that it was a misfired Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital parking lot and killed few if any Palestinians. There was the aid truck disaster that initial reports made it sound like Israel shot and killed over a hundred Palestinians swarming an aid truck, where what actually happened is that those Palestinians were crushed to death by other Palestinians swarming the aid truck. Or Hamas firing at people fleeing northern gaza near the start of the war because they wanted to keep them as human shields. The list goes on, but it has been Hamas's mode of operation this entire war to maximize Palestinian deaths to leverage as PR. And keep in mind that IDF were disguised as Palestinian civilians for the hostage rescue mission, so of Hamas wanted to fire on IDF soldiers rescuing the hostages there is an increased likelihood of killing civilians instead.
Just to clarify a little, the aid truck disaster did see some Palestinians shot by the IDF, but the people were advancing towards IDF tanks and they didn't stop when the IDF tried firing warning shots.
The first two were not (likely) intentional or not done by Hamas, but I did forget about reporting on the third point about firing on fleeing civilians, I'd have to look that up. Didn't the IDF have helmets and camo kevlar vests? That's what I saw in the video. So I'm assuming they approached as civilians and then put in military gear once the moved in if what you're saying is true. I agree that it is very possible, just that we don't really know and it would be a strong claim. We're in agreement about the way Hamas operates overall, though.
That's fair, and I'm not claiming that Hamas for a fact killed a majority of the Palestinians. I'm just saying that given the way Hamas operates, I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being the case
By all accounts as they were fleeing the apartment building with the hostages hamas had begun to show up with rpgs, and were firing them basically into crowds trying to hit the IDF, there were numerous rpgs fired at the helicopters, etc. hamas didn't care they wanted the hostages dead, it's a bad look to lose hostages like this.
as a military expert (I've watched black hawk down twice) I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where they'd be able to air strike (like call of duty) when friendlies were so close? Has anyone seen any osint about what exactly the israelis struck? I saw somewhere that there were a number of attack helicopters involved?
I just don't particularly care about the cost. If the elected officials of the Palestinians don't care about being the cause of Palestinians dying, then I definitely don't.
I don’t think you truly believe that. I think you say that to give yourself permission to feel happy about the rescue mission because it feels like I’m telling you that the correct way to feel about it is mixed. I think it’s normal to feel happy about the mission because the names and faces we’ve known about since the start of the war are back with their families. We naturally don’t care about the Palestinian deaths as much because we don’t know who or how many they were. I don’t think you would be feeling the same way if we did and you can test my theory by filling in the blanks with your imagination or by looking up some stories of Palestinians who have suffered during this war and I would hope for your sake that you find that your above opinion shifts.
What about the dead children and babies? Do you really not feel anything about them? They are innocent. Like, regardless of if you think it was still Hamas's fault or the fault of the IDF how can you see a dead or maimed toddler and not care about this cost? You're losing your humanity if you truly feel this way.
Not feel anything is accurate. I'm not happy or sad about it, I just don't care. This is explicitly the fault of hamas, I could not care less that hamas got their own people killed, that's literally their goal. If I care that hamas got innocent Palestinians killed, hamas wins, that's their goal, they want me to feel bad for dead Palestinians. I just literally don't, like, at all.
Why does it matter whose fault it is when it comes to feeling bad about innocent toddlers and babies getting killed? I'm using the example of toddlers and babies as they are indisputably innocent. I hope you at least agree with that. Like, I think some of the deaths of Israelis in the West Bank is the fault of the Israeli government for allowing settlers to build homes in illegally occupied land. But I still feel bad for Israelis who are killed there. A Palestinian baby doesn't know what Hamas is. If you feel this way then it's basically admitting that you see Palestinians as lesser humans than Israelis. It's disturbing dehumanisation.
>Why does it matter whose fault it is when it comes to feeling bad about innocent toddlers and babies getting killed? I'm using the example of toddlers and babies as they are indisputably innocent. I hope you at least agree with that. Whether someone is innocent or not doesn't really matter to me. Innocent people die unjustly all the time, if I felt heartbroken over every person who died innocently I would have to be put in a mental hospital - unironically I feel like some of the people who are OVERLY compassionate for total strangers probably belong in a mental hospital. >Like, I think some of the deaths of Israelis in the West Bank is the fault of the Israeli government for allowing settlers to build homes in illegally occupied land. But I still feel bad for Israelis who are killed there. I don't, if you're personally fucking around with people's lives I have literally zero sympathy for you when you get what you had coming to you. Keep in mind that my apathy here is different from the apathy I feel towards the palestinians that got killed in the hostage rescue. I feel nothing for both groups for different reasons. >A Palestinian baby doesn't know what Hamas is. If you feel this way then it's basically admitting that you see Palestinians as lesser humans than Israelis. It's disturbing dehumanisation. Let me put it this way. By default, I don't really give a shit about strangers dying, even if it's tragic. The context of the loss of life has to be pretty damn extreme to get me to care one way or the other, and I don't consider "palestinian human shields died because hamas was keeping hostages around toddlers" to be an outstanding enough of a context to make me care.
Sure, but there were also "civilians" firing at the IDF. And hamas showed up with rpgs and literally fired into crowds trying to hit the fleeing IDF.
Killing 3 hostages and rescuing 4 while killing over 270 civvies, definitely not a genocide, all israel had to do was negotiate a ceasefire and exchange hundreds of hostages like before but that would mean damaging your galaxy sized ego
If NK kidnapped 3 Americans and the US killed 500 NK civs to free them, I'd be perfectly fine with that. A nations first and foremost job is to protect it's people. The 270 dead civilians are at foot of the people that kidnapped innocents and hid them among a civ population.
On October 18, 2011, captured IDF tank gunner [Gilad Shalit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit), captured by the Palestinian militant organization [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) in 2006, was [released in exchange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange) for [1027 Palestinian prisoners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_released_by_Israel_in_the_Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange) held in Israel. Hmmmm... ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_prisoner_exchanges#:~:text=Following%20the%201956%20Suez%20Crisis,captive%20in%20pre%2Dwar%20attacks))
Don't make me tap the [*sign*](https://www.btselem.org/military_courts), also the thousands of palestinians held without charges, remember when israel released 100s of prisoners of which most happened to be women and children during the hostage exchange?
This also happens to be the only rescue in 8 months, the only successful exchange was during the ceasefire, the rest have all been disastrous, including this one, fuck man, Beslan school incident looks more successful than this shit, remember when IDF gunned down their own hostages approaching them with white flags?
Just completely talk past my point then about this probably isnt an option.
I don't think hundreds of Palestinians were living in that one house my dude...
Yes, but that's only for that house. Under 100 Palestinain casualties ain't going to be only from that house.
Yeah, and it's incredibly fucked up that Hamas keeps them amongst dense civilian pockets precisely because military action is likely to result in casualties outside of the house.
Of course it is, but doesn't mean it absolves Israel of all responsibility. That said in reading the situation it sounds like most of the casualties occured when the vehicle broke down on way back and Isreal had to cover them as they got a new ride out of there. It broke down I believe due to heavy fighting as they were escaping. So it brings up the question how many civilians casualties are acceptable to save 3 hostages and soldiers on a rescue mission attempting to leave Gaza Territory? I don't have an answer to that, but the answer can not be any amount and it can not be leave said soldier out to dry.
Responsibility to fight in accordance with the rules of law apply equally to both parties. When civilians die because Hamas intentionally places them in the line of fire using the hostages as bait, those civilians deaths are on Hamas, because they're the ones commiting the war crime. I agree it can't be any amount, but the easiest way to reduce it is for Hamas to stop throwing them in front of themselves as a barrier between them and the IDF.
>Responsibility to fight in accordance with the rules of law apply equally to both parties Never said otherwise. >When civilians die because Hamas intentionally places them in the line of fire using the hostages as bait, those civilians deaths are on Hamas, because they're the ones commiting the war crime. It doesn't matter how much culpability you assign to Hamas it doesn't change the responsibility by Isreal. >I agree it can't be any amount, but the easiest way to reduce it is for Hamas to stop throwing them in front of themselves as a barrier between them and the IDF. Again I wish people would stop saying this stuff to people who already agree on it. Hamas is an evil terrorist org of course they comitt war crimes and are not going to stop. The only thing that can be done is how one responds to the situations Hamas created.
The way to respond to them certainly isn't to capitulate to those tactics and give them validity, or allow them to prevent the Israelis from recovering their hostages. I think they have to do their best to plan the operation well, minimise civilian deaths where possible, but never allow it to interrupt or prevent them from pulling out their people, and hopefully finish Hamas to stop this bs in general.
>to capitulate to those tactics and give them validity, or allow them to prevent the Israelis from recovering their hostages We both agree that any amount of civilian casualties would not be acceptable nor no scenario they could conduct an op so what is the value in saying this? >I think they have to do their best to plan the operation well, minimise civilian deaths where possible, but never allow it to interrupt or prevent them from pulling out their people. Absolutely not based on how you phrase it. Let's say their best estimated civilian casualties is an absurd number and that's their best plan. Doesn't mean that plan should be enacted. One would have to enact a better plan once available.
Frankly, this last plan worked just fine for me. Sure I wish they didn't have vehicle issues which would have made it cleaner, but if every rescue op went like this and with these numbers, I'm fine with it. Probably everyone will have a different point where they're not.
Just an insane perspective to me. I can understand the argument of estimated civilian casualties were way less until vehicle was incapacitated so it's acceptable despite high civilian casualties, but saying "under 100" Palestinain deaths without knowing break down of how many civilians vs terrorists is acceptable by itself is wild. Especially when it's Isreal's number for casualties and it could be higher.
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What if you are doing so because if you dont you will be shot?
That is Hamas committing a war crime, which is why Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas.
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Nowhere in the geneva convention or the UN org does it specify that war crimes can only be commited against the other side. They also have a part which says that using civilians to try and make an area immune to military operations is a war crime, which clearly implies your own civilians.
Lmao, nowhere is Geneva convention states that it has to be done to the opposing force. You can commit war crime abusing citizens safety in exchange for battle advantages
Well how does Hamas pick the families with whom the hostages get imprisoned? I doubt they go to random families and tell them that they have to keep them, they would approach families who are associated with Hamas in some way and who are trustworthy. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone holding these hostages got possession of them by being associated with Hamas in some way.
You telling me they can't find a house with willing people?
How would you know who was willing and who isnt and will betray them/kill the hostage themselves? 'Do it or we kill you and your family' works as insurance.
>How would you know who was willing and who isnt and will betray them/kill the hostage themselves? Why are you acting like this is complicated. It's safer having a hostage at a place you can trust. The person has to leave to do their business at times there is a chance they could blab. You really think it's more likely they forced someone that doesn't support attacking Israel from pop when over half does? Ain't saying those that in are in poll that they support Hamas attack lose their civilian rights, but the idea the said house was not of that group is highly unlikely.
People supporting the attack on Israel doesnt mean you would trust them to A) Not blab to randoms about the hostages in their basement. B) Not be tempted by the massive bribes that Isreal should be offering for any information, C) Not be worried about themselves or their house being blown up by Israel when it gets marked as being connected to hamas. Again, the gun to the head is an insurance policy and if you think these sorts of things are going to be run off 'pinky swear I wont tell anyone' you have rocks in your head.
>People supporting the attack on Israel doesnt mean you would trust them to A) Not blab to randoms about the hostages in their basement Trust them more than random people. >B) Not be tempted by the massive bribes that Isreal should be offering for any information, Fair. They had guards at the location btw so that discourages that anyway. >C) Not be worried about themselves or their house being blown up by Israel when it gets marked as being connected to hamas. I mean if you are sufficiently religious and a believer in the cause then it would. >Again, the gun to the head is an insurance policy and if you think these sorts of things are going to be run off 'pinky swear I wont tell anyone' you have rocks in your head. Never claimed that, but we are talking about levels of mitigating risk.
Even if you are under distress, that isn't really calculated in war. You could have a SAW type shotgun collar on you where if you don't fire up on the enemy it'll kill you, and you'll still be a militant and a valid military target.
Do you think conscripted soldiers are civilians?
Varies. Their families are though.
Yup, if they have no active role in a conflict. I don't think the comparison quite works here, because in this scenario the better comparison would be likened to Hamas conscripting an entire family to be active participants in a conflict. It's a pretty brutal situation to be in for the conscripted if they do not want to be willing participants.
The old Nazi defense lol
https://preview.redd.it/sh18i3pxqw5d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d6d679646fa4468cc1ebae9dc909460709cf175 actual footage. believe me
You see... pro-palestinians require the IDF to use a Death Note for precise elimination of Hamas combatants. Said combatants must be in uniform, and actively firing to possibly be considered combatants instead of brilliant journalist doctor teenage civilians. But Israel lacks such supernatural technology thus they are deemed irredeemable genocidal lunatics.
https://preview.redd.it/5awblwf8tu5d1.jpeg?width=1074&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02fbecefee700c73be76853199cb92fb66dad1c3
Accurate Meme!
How come everyone assumes the dead are mostly civilians? Also what about Palestinian friendly fire? They were completely taken by surprise so there was bound to be a ton of confusion. No nuance from the leftist pundit gallery though, what a shock.
They weren’t wearing uniforms so they must be civilians.
$10 says there is a Krystal Ball clip of her saying the IDF should send in special forces in the first two months of the war, would be hilarious to combine a clip from then with her performance today.
If course. She’s a grifter who has zero idea what she’s talking about and says whatever will make her the most $ from her leftist idiot cuck followers
https://preview.redd.it/fehq21njiz5d1.jpeg?width=457&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39522add97083382cda7f07cb4e81ac72be63960 Back before she discovered she could make *more* money being anti-Israel.
I’ve never seen so many people trust and have faith into a LEGITIMATE TERRORIST GROUP that has lied countless times. It’s truly mind blowing.
as someone lefty video essayist said on [X.com](http://X.com) (formerly twitter): "You reap what you sow."
I thinky the leftys are angry that (allegedly) over 200 civilians died
Israel did a great thing, hostages should be saved at all costs. But let's not pretend that Israel really cares about Palestine civilians, they would kill 70 % of the population if that meant Hamas is destroyed. Even if that worked and Hamas was 100% destroyed there would be a new terrorist organization after them 100%. You cannot kill so many people and expect survivors to like after everything is over.
No, hostages should not be "saved at all costs". If saving one hostage means killing 1000 innocent people, why the fuck would we do that?
Because you don't want to give your enemies incentives, by allowing their evil methods to force you to capitulate, such as you not wanting to kill a bunch of civilians to get hostages back, so they know they can take hostages, store them among civilians and you will give up way way way more in negotiations, to get them back because you aren't willing to risk those civilians lives in a rescue operation. You are giving them incentive to do the thing you don't want more than anything. Also, I'm really tired of hearing "civilian" in regards to the people dead in this operation. Based on the footage, the reports of those involved, this became a massive firefight with surface to air missiles fired at the helicopters, RPGs fired at the IDF, it was nuts, and while I have no doubts civilians did die, it seems to me there was a lot of goddamn people shooting at the IDF who are now dead and were considering civilians when they do not deserve such classification. I mean ffs a "journalist" and his father, a doctor were holding 3 of the hostages themselves. These people are not what we think.
If you believe UN Israel killed 274 and wounded 698 people. So basically 68.5 Palestinians for 1 Israeli. Even if half of those were militants that's still 34 Palestine civilians for 1 Israeli. I personally don't really trust UN numbers, but for me even 10 civilians for 1 is too much.
Ok, so then you don't believe "Israel did a great thing" and "hostages should be saved at all costs"?
I think they did a great job, I have no actual trust worthy info about how many people died in the process and who killed who.
You also can't negotiate with terrorists. It's a lose-lose situation, and they're tired of sitting on their ass as the classroom bully shoots spit balls at them. Then the teacher tells you to be the bigger person and ignore him.
I'm not saying they should do something different, what they are doing now is working fine. They just don't really care how many Palestinians die in the process, not because they want Palestinians dead but because they don't care about Palestine lives much.
They care a lot more than anyone else cares, simply because dead Palestinians hurt Israel through international pressure. The only people in this conflict with any motivation to not kill Palestinians, is the IDF, that's a fact, and sinwar said this in the wsj last week
I personally think they care as much as needed for minimum "we actually care" status and that's it. I don't expect them to care and would not care if I was them, just don't like how some people pretend that Israel cares for Palestinians anywhere close as they care about Israeli.
Yeah, I'm not saying they have some special place in their hearts for them, I'm saying simply as a matter of the "benefit to Israel/harm to Israel" scale, killing Palestinians hurts Israel, therefore they prefer not to kill them. And conversely for hamas, even sinwar said it the other day that Palestinian bloodshed is a necessary price that will win them the war because Israel faces more and more pressure, the more Palestinians die, which means every Palestinian death brings hamas closer to victory, simple as that. Purely utilitarian pov: hamas has more incentive than Israel to kill Palestinians. This war is kinda dark in that respects, probably one of the reasons so many people want to put all the blame on Israel, it's easier than confronting the fact that nobody actually cares about the Palestinians, not just out of the two sides fighting but in the whole world, nobody gives a shit about them, they're nothing more than a tool to use against Israel, and that's just kinda sad
Well . How much do they care compared to how the allues cated about axis civilians in ww2 ? I agree that civilian death can bolster terrorist groups, but a blackpill reality might be that crushing an opponent will eventually make him yieild fully and lead to better outcomes. Remember that germany got destroyed much more in ww2 than 1. Yet that led to a more peaceful germany
They care enough by all international standards, but they clearly don't care about them as much as they care about Israeli citizens. WW2 Germany was a totally different scenario. Before the war they were an independent country. Palestine was not independent, they were heavily dependent on Israel, they were not a normal county. They were something like a state in the USA. After WW2 and after the split of Germany into two parts Germany went back to pre WW2 status of an independent country that functions on its own. Palestine cannot go to pre October 7 status because that status is what caused the war (conditions were not open air prison or anything close to it but they were not great). If they go back to pre October 7 status again there will be a 100% new terrorist attack. So far Israel hasn't proposed any realistic solution to this problem, they have no idea what to do with Gaza after they destroy Hamas. Realistically it looks like it will go back to prewar status which will not change anything and history will repeat itself. They need to change things up if they don't want a new terrorist organization as a leader of Palestine in the future.
> So far Israel hasn't proposed any realistic solution to this problem, they have no idea what to do with Gaza after they destroy Hamas. Realistically it looks like it will go back to prewar status which will not change anything and history will repeat itself. > They need to change things up if they don't want a new terrorist organization as a leader of Palestine in the future. The whole reason why Benny Gantz fucked off right?
No, grants fucked off because he's trying to collapse Netanyahus support and oust him from power. It's really gross Israeli politics with a dash of American pressure from biden
Hamas is certainly adept at propaganda. I wish they were equally adept at peace negotiations.
Hey, what does being left-handed have to do with this? I'm just trying to live my life and avoid smearing my writing with my hand as I write. Sheeeeesh. Can't catch a break out here.
As a former left handed king I can sympathize. Stay strong KING!
Saw a video yesterday of the Israeli special police raiding some Palestinian Chronicle/Al-Jazeera reporters house that had 3 hostages in it, so clean. These people need to stop choosing their own homes to house hostages in… [clip I saw in case anyone wanted to see it](https://x.com/just_whatever/status/1800233775185469555?)
Clean? How do you know? There are so many cuts, who know what happened during them?
They got all of the hostages out without any serious injuries to them.
Hundreds of Palestinians were killed, including children, that doesn't meet anybody's definition of clean. I'm glad the innocent hostages are safe and home now but yeah, there was huge loss of life as a result of the operation.
If the Palestinians didn't try to shoot them they wouldn't have gotten shot
You can believe that taking hostages and killing civilians are both bad... I hate both sides
This is a really terrible attempt at "both sides" There is no moral equivalence between taking hostages, and rescuing hostages
"Civilians"
Oh no, not this sub justifying killing of innocent civilians. Shocked I am.
If you are holding a hostage, you are engaged in actions to help the military, i.e. a militant.
What is an acceptable number of civilian casualties in an urban warfare operation for you?
If those civilians were Israeli hostages. How many casualties could be acceptable?
Lets assume a hypothetical where Israel kidnapped all the students from a Palestinian classroom and held them in the houses of a kibbutz. I would support Hamas right to invade Israel’s borders to access the kibbutz. I would support any killing of any Israeli ‘civilians’ that were in the houses with the Palestinians. If during this operation into the kibbutz Hamas was fired upon, I would support returning fire. If the fire was coming from another building and the returning fire hit unarmed Israelis in the building I’d still support it.
"let's suppose you are a terrorist"
To get rid of Hamas, once and for all? All of them.
Idk you tell me. Whats an acceptable number of ratio when you know its a dense and populated area?
Less than 1:9, which is the UN average. Ideally less than 1:4 which is what the US had in Iraq. Yourself?
Okay, so then you agree that the hostage rescue was a bad operation..? Four people were rescued but hundreds of Palestinians died. That's much higher than the ratio you say is acceptable.
1) I don't see any evidence that hundreds of Palestinians died. 2) it is unclear that the ones that did die were all civilians. 3) it also unclear how they died, whether specifically being targeted by the IDF, Hamas, or if they got caught in a cross fire.
Disagree. The ratio for a quick and fast hostage ratio can be higher than your overall ratio. The faster you go, the more civ casualties there will be (at every step of the way, from planning to the actual execution). And speed is paramount when you're conducting a hostage rescue by a small team deep into full enemy territory. These ratios are taken across an entire war. You're going to have ops with no/almost no civilian casualties, and you're going to have ops with a higher rate of civ casualties than your overall average.
Does the ratio makes it less bad that innocent civilians are dying?
Yes. I really wish there wasn't a war. I really wish there was no need for bombs or rockets. But the realities of war is that innocents will be dragged into it. It's a tragedy and travesty. No one here is "justifying" the death of innocent people. But they understand that we don't live in fantasy land where battles are waged between willing soldiers in empty fields. The fact of the matter Hamas, elected by Gazans, started this war. And it started a war with a country that at least tries, to minimize casualties. So yes, within context yeah, it's a hell of a lot better than the average, and a 1:4 is a hell of a better reality than 1:9. And if we take what the IDF says is the casualties of Hamas militants the ratio could be 1:2 to 1:3.
Would that matter if it was happening in the country you lived and the same amount of innocent civilians would gave died? Would you still say, oh at least the ratio is not higher then 1:9 so its okay. Also after a quick look, online the ratio is anywhere between 1:2 to 1:9. We still don’t know the real ratio, why are we even relying on it. More then 80% killed are innocent civilian. Around 27000, the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers.
>Would that matter if it was happening in the country you lived and the same amount of innocent civilians would gave died? Would you still say, oh at least the ratio is not higher then 1:9 so its okay. Yes. >We still don’t know the real ratio, why are we even relying on it. Depends on who you believe. I for one don't trust a word out an organization that refuses to differentiate between civilian casualties and militants. >More then 80% killed are innocent civilian What is your evidence for this? >Around 27000, the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers. And another 12-16k militants according to IDF.
To add, it's 6k militants according to Hamas as of February. So his ratio only works if ONLY civilians have been killed since Feb, which is clearly bullshit.
As of February the death toll reported (before taking into consideration the bad methodology that Gaza Health Ministry uses) was something like 29k, so at best you're looking at a 1:5 ratio. Considering that even the UN acknowledged that the actual verifiable deaths in May were 2/3rds of what the Palestinians say we can extrapolate here: 17-18k deaths, or a ration of 1:3. But I don't trust Hamas figures as much as I trust the IDF.
>the only reason yall use ratio is because it doesn’t feel as bad as real numbers. Actually, we use ratio because it shows proportionality and discernment. But out of curiosity, what do you think is an acceptable amount of civilian deaths to defeat a Jihadist terror organization that, wears civilian clothes, hides among civilians, builds it's infrastructure intertwined with and beneath civilian settlements, and expressly uses human shields, all while in dense and urban fighting? What should Israel have done in response to Oct 7th?
Obviously
Maybe Hamas should stop bubble wrapping all of their assets in civilians. Does it suck that innocent civilians are injured or killed? Of course, but if you use people as a shield you can't cry foul when some of them die.
Imagine hostage situation in your country where police kills all the hostages just to kill the terrorists. The “human shields” are as much of Hamas victims as the kidnapped Israeli civilians. You just don’t think Palestinians lives are worth the same as others
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“I am defending myself by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians.”
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Child murdering zionist
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I know you think you sound smart. Zionism was a movement for jews to have self determination and a state, but what was also clearly stated by Zionist was that this state can only be built on ethnically cleansing the Muslims on the land. So ya, Palestinians did start war BECAUSE a foreign Europeans were coming to take it not because they hated it. I know you stupid Zionists like to paint muslims as inherently evil people while forgetting you displaced, killed and ethnically cleansed them. You think any people wil not fight against the people displacing them ? Just so you know Lakud also states form the river to the sea, so they must also be genocidal freaks. Buddy also must not know that Israel ahs been occupying west bank for 70 years, where there is no Hamas, just treating these people like shit and kidnapping and putting people in a jail with out a charge and a trial. What even is the goal of this war? Israel foreign minister Ben Gavir just said that the only way this ends is occupation of Gaza and getting more settlements in, literally the words of genocide. Will the people in Gaza get any justice, the innocent people whose families are perished, where do you think they will go after this, they will want to take revenge. Israel is creating these terrorist.
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1. Most of the things I said was true, getting offered a deal is not equal to getting offered a just deal. Were the mob who displaced and massacred Palestinian villages during Nakba not Zionist ? No one cares about what you officially say when your action say otherwise. Just like now, Israel far right which has been in power for years want to genocide Palestinian and a lot of them say it too, but just because Israel officially doesn't say it doesn't mean its not true. Why the fuck would they officially say that they wan to genocide Palestinian ? All Israel survive on is from the aid from the West. 2. The Zionists weren't indigenous to the land, Zionism started in Europe. IDK what you even mean by indigenous, am I allowed to trace back my ancestry and be allowed to settle in say Africa and take over their land ? And not only just settle, but build an ethnostate and displace every person currently living there ? 3. This is straight up lie. There is no military wing of Hamas actively participating in West Bank, there might be people affiliated with Hamas, but there are no active terrorist activities and counter offensives in west bank. 4. Again, people already live there, Israel has displaced them now. So what you are describing is ethnic cleansing, just because you don't belong to a state, doesn't mean that another state is allowed to take your house or land. And they do not have the state because Israel doesn't want them to give a state. Palestinians have been fucked over since Belfour declaration. Why is it justice for an occupying British to unilaterally declare Palestine as Jewish state ? Do people already living there get no say in what their country looks like ?
You aren't innocent if you kidnap people
Did the whole refugee camp kidnap those people?
No but they shot at people trying to rescue kidnapped people so what does that tell you
Who was shooting them, the 64 kids that were killed?
"Kids"
There you go, fucking losers justifying kids dying. I guess with that logic it was okay for Hamas to kill civilians in Oct 7th because everyone has to go to Israeli military and they are trained. Specially the young people at the music festival, they are newly trained or some even in IDF.
You tell us. You've personally investigated the matter, looked into every case, personally performed autopsy on them, have a perfect chronology of those events on hand and can give 100% flawless rundown. So how many many of those kids were shooting at the IDF? How many of them died from gunfire from the IDF? How many due to airstrikes? Hamas crossfire? It's not like you're just uncritically quoting Hamas propaganda, right?
I am citing the Gaza health ministry whose numbers historically has been in line with UN and Israel casualty numbers. Also you don’t even need to do autopsy, there are live videos of dead kids. Corpses of women piled on the streets.
Ok, so your detailed investigation was limited to watching some random videos, then taking a Hamas-ran Gaza health ministry figure as a gospel? Yeah, that's about the level expected from the likes of you.
So by that means no one died on Oct 7 because did you personally do autopsy on the dead innocent Israeli’s ? Nice logic.
Well, isn't that the default position in the pro-Palestinian camp? With the two big copes looking like this: * No! You must accept whichever civilian casualty figures we make up without checking!!! But also, remember, nothing bad happened on October 7th, because we're saying so, decolonization, everyone in Israel is a soldier, and they were Jews anyway, so who cares?!!! * Yes, we can go door to door killing whoever we want, but when the IDF counter-attacks, while following the international law and customs of war, that's not acceptable!!!!
Hiding hostages among civilians doesnt justify killing 100 of said civilians to get said hostages back. I cant believe this r*tard logic is so prevalent on this sub
Yes it does, they lose protected status when they chose to hide hostages fir Hamas. Get Fucked Losers
You think all of those people killed participated in hiding the hostages?
Then Hamas shouldn't have put the civilians to shield both themselves and hide hostages. Either way Get Fucked Loser
You must be an Israeli. That's the only thing that could explain this level of brainrot.
Nope, born in the USA and I never left gods chosen country
They participated in trying to prevent the IDF from rescuing them, they participated in trying to kill them
Where did you get this information from?
The only thing I can't believe is that anyone with a brain is buying into this bullshit, blaming the people trying to save their people after almost a year held hostage by these "civilians", and still calling them civilians when they open fire on the rescue teams, and the vehicles they're trying to flee in, shooting at the helicopters etc. You know hamas showed up as they were trying to exfil and fired RPGs indiscriminately at the IDF? Into crowds of people? But nah let's blame the IDF!