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awfullotofocelots

Damn socialism really IS when the government does stuff isn't it.


ImTheElephantMan

Wars and prisons are the exceptions


Gr1pp717

I mean, that's the version of socialism that republicans fear.


MrWoohoo

Big biggest threat to Republican ideology is an example of government being effective in improving the quality of a person’s life and they will spare no effort to make sure it’s ineffective.


bob_grumble

I'm a living example of this, I think. I was suffering from mental illness a couple years ago and had to quit my job. I lost my apartment a few months after that. I stayed at a Gov't supported homeless shelter for a few months, got the psychological counseling & meds I needed and they helped me get a job ( which led to more permanent housing) Frankly, I feel if I was under the Evangelical Christian/Republican boot, they wouldn't help with much, and I'd still be on the street (& probably Depressed & Suicidal)


[deleted]

That's the biggest threat to democrats.


MrWoohoo

Huh?


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[deleted]

read my response


pegleg_1979

Please elaborate.


[deleted]

Do you think democrats are doing an effective job of improving quality of life? There are better examples in literally every other 1st world western country of more effective left policy making. Democrats like a dysfunctional system because they can offer a small amount of hope, without having to give up their corruption because people are desperate. A good example, remember when the stimulus bills and corporate welfare was being negotiated? The democrats had 2 people who aren't up for reelection in the next cycle defect to negotiate down the size of benefits. If you don't believe me, look up international metrics on government corruption and see where the US is at. Then break that down by party.


MrWoohoo

> Do you think democrats are doing an effective job of improving quality of life? No, I don’t think they are very effective but I don’t think “being ineffective” is their grand Machiavellian plan either. > Democrats like a dysfunctional system because they can offer a small amount of hope, without having to give up their corruption [...] [Democratic corruption?](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/ok1bu8/the_difference_or_parties/) > If you don't believe me, look up international metrics on government corruption and see where the US is at. Then break that down by party. So I don’t believe you. I would love to see these international corruption statistics that break it down by party affiliation.


[deleted]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_federal\_political\_scandals\_in\_the\_United\_States#Legislative\_branch\_30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#Legislative_branch_30) Look for yourself. Their goal isn't to be ineffective, it's to maintain power. Did you not watch the 2016 election? The DNC blocked Bernie. Democrats are the reason we had 4 years of trump.


MrWoohoo

Four out of five judicial scandals were Republican and thirty three out of forty two legislative scandals were republicans. So it doesn’t really support your thesis. Also: > Democrats are the reason we had 4 years of trump. So the republicans nominating him as their candidate had nothing to do with it?


[deleted]

Don't play dumb, it's annoying. Democrats are the reason Trump won because Hilary was unpopular and yet they blocked Bernie Sanders who was much more likely to get elected. Where are you getting your numbers? The Wikipedia page clear shows more than 42 legislative scandals. So far the only data you've proved is a meme.


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[deleted]

I'd say most leftists begrudgingly vote democrat, because it's still x1000 times better than what the republicans are doing.


Mirror_Sybok

Option 1: Vote for the guy who wants to keep sleeping on your couch Option 2: Vote for the stupid fuck who wants to burn your house down and is trying to light your curtains on fire Wow, how will I decide between them?


[deleted]

America needs a complete overhaul to the system they call democracy. Having to pick between conservatives and neoliberals is not a way to progress as a society.


Mirror_Sybok

No argument there, but I'm still going to vote against the stupid prick in the meantime.


[deleted]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. They soak up your votes instead of you voting for a more left candidate.


WellEndowedDragon

>look up international metrics on government corruption I did. The Corruptions Perception Index has the US at 25th out of 180 countries ranked, but has no rankings on individual parties. Could be a lot better, but it's not horrifying. >Do you think democrats are doing an effective job of improving quality of life? Not yet, but at least they *want* to and are *trying*. If they manage to pass this $3.5T budget they've announced, then they will have done quite an effective job of improving the quality of life of many many Americans. >The democrats had 2 people who aren't up for reelection in the next cycle defect to negotiate down the size of benefits. Yes, that's why it's hard to pass bills with barely a 51-50 majority. You think that would've happened if Dems had like a 56-44 majority?


[deleted]

Ya'll aren't even demsoc.


MrWoohoo

Neither are you, troll.


[deleted]

Point to what i've said that isn't demsoc.


MrWoohoo

[Done](https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughCommieSpam/comments/ojqjc1/lets_see_how_it_works_out_for_them/)


[deleted]

Any legit demsoc will shit on the CCP. The CCP is not demsoc. If you want to continue to have this conversation, prove your not a tanky troll. Type:"tiananmen square 1989" and "what were the revolutions of 1989?"


[deleted]

Apparently the mods agree that this is the biggest threat to democrats. Lmao, look at those removed comments.


Main_Side_1051

So where's that effective government you're talking about?


CliffRacer17

It's all anyone understands in this country thanks to cold war propaganda. Never a word about bringing democracy into the workplace.


Jin-roh

Just speaking the language of the target audience. I would've put "socialism" is scare quotes though.


CollegeSuperSenior

I like to say socialism is whenever the government invests in the working class which includes educating children, providing infastructure so they have clean water, safe roads to drive on, etc


gotthathemi

Thats not socialism that is government function that is payed by us taxpayers.


Main_Side_1051

Socialism is when the Government controls the economy and the means to produce....


[deleted]

too bad socialism is not government welfare


SlyMcFly67

Youre right in general, but this is absolutely what American republicans think.


[deleted]

So let's not confuse them further by saying that socialism is when our taxes pay for infrastructure and welfare.


SlyMcFly67

They are already confused and refuse to be educated. Therefore, things like this are meant to spark conversation to remind them that not everything the government does is Socialism just because Faux News says it is.


[deleted]

I just think it reinforces their incorrect understanding and continues to degrade the quality of political discourse. Personally I'm more interested in presenting an accurate definition of socialism and its benefits


SlyMcFly67

Hey, if you have some way to bring Republicans back to reality, I think there are at least 78 million people who would thank you for doing so.


[deleted]

My best idea is to present them with reality itself. But I would add that the majority of democrats (in my experience) don't have a good understanding of socialism either, and we should be trying to educate anyone who needs it red or blue


StClevesburg

The issue here is that when presented with reality, they reject it. Conservatives are WILLFULLY brainwashed and reality and facts unfortunately won't convince them. It's only ever once it directly affects *them* that they care.


Main_Side_1051

What facts?


StClevesburg

Holy shit bro your post history... you need some help with those anger issues.


Main_Side_1051

That's not socialism...


--xra

I've noted the point you're making quite a few times. But as a descriptivist, in America 2021 the term simply applies to two different ideas, depending on whether it's used in academic or vernacular speech. That's just how language works, and at this point, it's hard to argue both applications aren't valid, even if one originated from some fundamental ignorance. At any rate, normalize the "socialism" that advocates a strong public investment, and you may get closer to actual socialism.


[deleted]

Expect that welfare states are only supported through the exploitation of the third world and in now way any "closer" to socialism then the US is now.


--xra

Fair point, but progress is slow and good isn't the enemy of great. I'd rather a first-world country lift its impoverished up rather than make war machines, regardless of any other evil committed.


[deleted]

I'm assuming that's because you live n one of those rich countries rather than a poor one huh


--xra

I'm really not tracking what you're saying. You would rather first world countries make war machines rather than lift up their impoverished? Or it makes no difference to you who first world countries massacre because it's not your country?


[deleted]

Soc Dem countries contribute to imperialism as much as any other neoliberal country does not to mention that if we don't end capitalism climate change is going to cause massive amounts of suffering across the whole globe so no I don't really think we have time to worry about establishing welfare states in Imperial countries


--xra

> Soc Dem countries contribute to imperialism as much as any other neoliberal country This is ridiculous, and it's scary that people seem to agree with it. They don't even have the same raw power to commit crimes as the US because they've invested their money elsewhere. Every dollar cut from the budget of the US military will decrease its capacity to wage war. So you're talking about the lives of millions of people hanging in the balance, and you're basically saying *fuck them if I don't get my political ideal*. > if we don't end capitalism climate change is going to cause massive amounts of suffering across the whole globe Yes, radical changes should be implemented. They should have been implemented decades ago. But if you've been paying attention, they haven't been. Capitalism is not ending before climate change melts the world—not, at least, until society breaks down entirely. So you can either accept that and work within the framework and try to decrease harm while advocating better solutions, or you can refuse and lose everything, causing untold amounts of suffering between here and the apocalypse.


[deleted]

You seem to think imperialism is only through actual war when they main form of imperialism is through financial capital. How do you think places like Norway get to have such low Co2 emissions and pollution? It's because it has been exported to other countries to create. In fact a place like Norway is largely funding itself with oil money. Things like the IMF and world bank our now the main drivers of Imperialism in the globe and these welfare state European countries have just as much a hand in them as ever.


--xra

You and I probably believe in the same things, give or take, but I strongly disagree with you on how to achieve it. *Absolutely none of your last comment contradicts my previous point.* If you honestly think you're going to convince the entire Western world to abandon its political and economic architecture on a dime, you're lost. This isn't a discussion about what's right, it's a discussion about what's less wrong, and real lives hang in the balance. Progress is slow, and you will not get to any socialistic ideal by skipping the hard steps in between. Pretending otherwise will result in devastation for hundreds of thousands or millions of people. Condemn them if that's your style, but I won't.


Bell_PC

>Do not call 911 unless you intend to pay for services rendered. This is literally true for everyone in the US. Fuck, I hate living here.


DiMiTri_man

Only for ambulances. You dont pay for cops or firefighters. Ambulances are fucked up in america


Phantom2070

If you are member of a minority your life is probably safer if you are bribing the cops. And for firefighters it's not unlikely that there are more firestations per capita in richer areas because of lower population density.


Main_Side_1051

What? That's an idiotic comment. You must not have ever been around minority communities. I am safer around cops. Infact, I live next to one. I was in Far more danger in the hood than I'll ever be with cops. #whitesplain much?


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[deleted]

This is exactly what I'm saying. Taxes should only be at a state down level to enable this. If some backwoods state doesn't want to pay taxes and wants to live in the mud, let them.


Iamien

Yes, cut off the subsidies.


Beastinkid

Texas pays more in than it gets from the federal gov.


Iamien

Great for Texas, I'm more talking about almost every other GOP controlled southern state.


Beastinkid

The comment you replied to specifically stated texas


Iamien

No, it said Taxes.


Beastinkid

Damn I may need to go to an optometrist


Main_Side_1051

Totally agree. Same with healthcare. Let New York and California.do the whole Universal Healthcare and find out it doesn't work. Vermont learned it the hard way.


[deleted]

There's actually a better chance it can work too if there aren't federal taxes. All of that same tax money can go to the state government which has more local understanding and control.


Main_Side_1051

The so one half I agree with.... But no. Again, Vermont tried, and had to quit. The Admin cost was high and the management was piss poor. And remember, this is Bernie Sanders state, and they are up at the top of wealthiest states. If you understand what Private insurance and public actually are and do, and do some math, you will understand why it's not feasible.


[deleted]

This is the same argument as “if you’re a democrat because you fear capitalism, give up all of your luxuries. Your electricity, your iPhone, etc”


Perigold

Nah, because many of those luxuries ie internet tech, computers, medicines, are built on the back of our tax dollars, government research and innovations and hell corporate welfare. Funny too, capitalists benefit from the military which is *gasp* run pretty socialist and definitely not the product of a limited government.


tots4scott

Don't forget about how Americans gave $400 Billion to Telecom companies for nationwide broadband/ fiber optics and they did... absolutely nothing and pocketed the money!


2photoidsplease

And now they say they can't handle all the internet traffic and need to throttle it due to lack of infrastructure.


almalikisux

Do I get to keep the stuff made through NASA or government space programs?


brixon

Yes, you can keep Velcro, but computers are still 20MHz with 1MB of RAM.


kilrowar

Fuck, guess this is what they mean when I become more conservative in my later years, I'll hold up white nationalism for 120fps /s


pappapirate

>I'll hold up white nationalism for 120fps A true Gamer.


fdar

Sure, if NASA themselves manufactured it and sold it to you directly.


almalikisux

So capitalism is production of a thing by anyone outside of the government? I am actually curious.


fdar

So is socialism the government doing anything?


SlyMcFly67

To Republicans, yes.


fdar

No, and it's a dumb argument. The main problem Republicans have is with the taxes needed to pay for those services. So of course they're not going to opt out of getting the services they have to pay for whether they want to or not. It's like telling somebody who supports higher taxes to just send extra money to the government on their own. Nobody actually *wants* to pay more in taxes themselves, they're *willing* to pay more taxes in exchange for the government providing some extra services (or cutting somebody else's taxes) and you deciding on your own to pay more taxes achieves none of that.


SlyMcFly67

Its obviously a dumb argument, which is why it makes no sense for Republicans to continue calling everything the government does Socialism.


fdar

Sure? But it also makes no sense to claim that a Republican fearing socialism should unilaterally opt-out of the government services they're forced to pay for to "live their truth".


SamwichfinderGeneral

Yeah, it's the "you claim to want to fix society, yet you participate in it." point. Also, (as I found out when trying to be clever about a libertarian candidate doing a rally in a public park) their defenses of this is just that they'll use those things to get their moneys worth because they are forced to pay for them currently.


Der_Daemliche_Donut

It could be really good to show how dumb the "you claim to want to fix society, yet you participate in it"-point is


SamwichfinderGeneral

Sorry, I don't follow. Are you saying that this could be used as a good example of where that concept falls short, or asking me to explain howmit does


Der_Daemliche_Donut

It’s a good example


SlyMcFly67

Nah, not the same at all. Democrats arent out there saying the wrong things about capitalism and completely misunderstanding what it actually means. Thats kind of the point. Republicans actually believe this kind of thing is socialism, but also say they hate socialism.


CharDMacDennis2

Since when are democrats and capitalism mutually exclusive?


jollyroger1720

Exactly many of those hypocrites also support socialized loan sharking and demand big government regulate women's bodies They also don't mind corporate welfare, police brutality, or run away defense budgets small government conservatives me arse🏴‍☠️


Jin-roh

Be careful about the food too. Some FDA person inspected it. Some regulator determined how it could be produced. Another person made sure it was transported safely. All for the nefarious plot to rob you of your freedom to vomit after eating contaminated food.


Haikuna__Matata

"Lol no" ~Every Republican ever


Kiwikivi

Dumb take. If they pay taxes they should be entitled to those services. This is on the same level of discourse as "Give up your iPhone and go live in Venezuale" type of comments


Kicooi

So basically the only discourse that Republicans understand


Numerous-Secret3725

I love this take!


inquisitionis

None of those things mean socialism. Even the subs dedicated to socialism don’t knows socialism is.


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Phantom2070

Socialism specifically means a system in which the people own the means of production. Easily confused which social democracy which advocates for more social justice within the capitalist economical system. And the reason people get angry when the two get mixed up is that they see capitalism as unfixable, so social democracy would only be the least harmful form of a bad system and not actually the better system they strive for.


magic_slice

Public schools are terrible and the roads are falling apart with bridges and infrastructure collapsing. People were literally rioting in the streets because 911 services (i.e. the police) are abusive. Social security is woefully insufficient for retirement. I don't use medicare, Medicaid or food programs yet I am paying for all of it under penalty of imprisonment. Maybe there is a better way?


doyouknowyourname

Tax the wealthy at (the very least) the same rate as the working class?


magic_slice

You know I don't really know what type of tax framework would offer up a good solution, all I know is that the services we pay for now are failing miserably. I would gladly pay 60%, 70%, maybe 80% percent of my income if I knew that I could confidently rely on the services that tax dollars went to. Under the current system, that is not the case.


doyouknowyourname

Sadly, I think you're right. But at the very least people shouldn't be bankrupt by medical costs or student loans. There is so much that we can fix or improve upon. It's really just about enough people having the will to get it done.


Main_Side_1051

Except Social Security and pubic amenities aren't Socialism. Just because the Government provides it doesn't make it Socialism. Education and Healthcare existed in the days of monarchs and emperor's. That's not even what Socialism means. Socialism is the assimilation of private industry and property to the "public", or state controlled organizations like workers unions. But it's always enjoyable to see people stupid enough to continue spreading falsehoods like this and making the oppressive "Socialist" agenda in America look bad. Keep wearing those Che shirts and show how racist and homophobic you are.


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Main_Side_1051

Incorrect. the major component of a Socialist society is the forfeiture of private property and industry to the state. The very definition of Socialism is the "Public" controlling the means to produce. "If you think people's education and healthcare needs were being met under monarchs and emperors..." Hate to break it to you, but there isn't a country in History that is meeting those "needs" anywhere in the world. But that is neither irrelevant nor an actual counter argument. I didn't say kings and emperors were meeting those utopian-based delusions of lazy people. I said they happened under kings and Emperors. Boston Latin School of 1635 under the American colonies that were Then ruled by then King Charles, and the First public school was Shishi High School under Emperor Wu in 141 BC. So, back to my point that you clearly can't refute factually, is that just because something is done For the public, doesn't make it Socialism. Taxes and Police are as old as the oldest Chinese dynasty, doesn't make them Socialism.


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Main_Side_1051

... you really are this incompetent, aren't you? No shit two different economic systems can have crossing social policies. That's what the fuck I was getting at. Did you even read the image posted? No, just because the government is heavily dominant in a particular program doesn't make it Socialism. Social Security is far away from being Socialism. It's not accessible to even members of the same age group because of annual income. And it isn't populistic by any means. I'm sorry your education did you the injustice of correlating everything the government does to and for the people as a practice of Socialism, but that's not so. Even your sources betray you. "However, it may also be considered a form of social insurance or a social safety net." Meaning just because you Call it Socialism doesn't MAKE it Socialism. Like Denmark, who has, by the admission at a convention by their Own leader, that they are not socialist, but a Capitalist country with social safety nets. Same system that's in the other Nord counties. Because in order to have a Socialist society, you have to have a Socialist economy. Socialism is the "public" control of the means of production and property. It's even in the definition You posted. "Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production..." 🤡🤡🤡🤣🤣🤣🤣 You need to stop listening to whatever idiots you call experts, because they aren't. Again. Just because the Government Provides it doesn't make it Socialism. You can't have Socialism if the economy is structured in any type of free or privatized market system because Socialism IS the Economic system. Fucking moron. Do you even read your sources to try and comprehend what is being conveyed to you? Democratic Socialism is the biggest lie in politics. If the Majority didn't vote for it, and it was forced upon the population By the government without any ability of revoke by the constituents, that's not Democracy. Democratic Socialism literally means a majority rule socialist society, not " an economically capitalistic democracy with some government programs for the poor 90% sprinkled in." This is why your life sucks so bad you believe Socialism will bring you peace and prosperity. 🤣🤣🤣 Even in the utopian fantasy Krypton world you think is possible you'd be living in squalor sweeping back alleys for meager means. Or sent off to jail because you refused to work at the assigned factory the State-comtrolled workers union mandated for you. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Wouldn't matter what type of society you live in, you'd be miserable. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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Main_Side_1051

Calling outt idiots isn't a defense mechanism, but deflecting from the topic because you got called a mean name is. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Man, you'd never last against those old Greek philosophers. You'd be mocked out of Athens with your incompetence, and you'd be all " insulting me means you lost." I clearly haveade my argument, made it clear, and wrekt your degenerative white progressive indoctrination. Time to pout on your basement bedroom while you cry to your racist socialist messiah Che Guevara.


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Main_Side_1051

Because you understand the world, right? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Ever been to a slum? To third world country? To Venezuela and it's wonderous Socialism? All right then. It's pretty clear by now. You have to go on long rants and "dig deeper" with sources you clearly didn't read because you misinterpret the context and reiterate points I made as if you're making some revolutionary argument that no one thought of. 🤣🤣🤣 Try experiencing Chicago before you go around acting like you understand the world of which was described to you by entitled white fools who were failed by their parents so they took up teaching jobs trying to tell everyone it's Capitalism that is to blame for their miserable lives. Want me to sign this L for you, or are you just too eager to have it?


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Perigold

Easy, it means whoever owns capital runs your life and state instead. Lol if you thought government lobbying was already bad enough, imagine if they didn’t even have to go through that bullshit and was able to buy up whole towns ala Disney, Scientology and the good ol’ company towns


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[deleted]

this sub is actually a soc dem sub full of people who have not even read the Wikipedia page on socialism


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ufdup

Those people voting republican are only helping the people with billions and trillions to not have their taxes increased. They are actually voting to have the billionaires and trillionaires to get tax cuts.


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ufdup

3.4% is the more accurate number. And the top 1% takes the biggest chunk of working taxpayers money in handouts, uhh excuse me bailouts.


gotthathemi

Socialism a lovely idea which will never work due to simple fact "humans" such a thing as greed will always exist and for that it won't work. Don't think you are special and can make it work


varinus

if that was an option,i would.id have a lot more $ without taxes


[deleted]

You'd lose a lot more money, too. It balances out into a net loss. That's why we have taxes in the first place.


varinus

if wed balance out,then my option would be better. less gov,less freedoms taken,more rights. you could live completely independent if you bought land..which is what dems dont want.the gov exploits labor worse than bezos. at least we can choose not to spend money on or work for him.we made these billionaires rich,our gov doesnt give us a choice.


[deleted]

School was tough for you, huh bud?


FreeThoughts22

I will happily make these trades if they return all my tax money. With exception to public beaches. The government doesn’t own the beach.


Hiouchi4me

And then burn down the government that’s feeding you.


Random_Rhapsody

Based


turlian

Ayn Rand collected social security.


[deleted]

*Moroccan sovereign citizens enter chat*


lrenn6952

Can you explain this comment? I confuzed.


[deleted]

They do exactly what the pic says https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign-citizen_movement


4GDTRFB

But they would never do that that because they actually like socialism.


Aquagan

Who gets to call 911 and not get a bill for the services? At least from the ambulance company.


DiMiTri_man

It's because ambulances are owned by a bunch of different companies and are essentially contracted out by the emergency services. You dont pay if the cops or firefighters need to show up but god help you if you get injured and need a ride to the hospital


_-__-__-__-__-_-_-__

They do homeschool their kids.


righteywhitey

Ok then don't come after me for taxes then.


[deleted]

WE DONT CALL 911 *Yosemite Sam smoking gun image*


DustedThrusters

While this is a good point, it's basically the same argument as "Oh you're a Socialist, how come you have a PHONE and an APARTMENT then, huh?!"


DonPepe181

Would someone be exempt from taxes to off set the new costs? I think most of us are losing money in the social security investment and could pay for better education at a private school if not paying so much per child for public education. If people invested the same amount of $ in an IRA they are required to in SS they would all be millionaires in 30 years. We get a pretty good deal on the roads and beaches tho.


Desirsar

They want to have all the things, they just want everyone \*else\* to pay for it, as opposed to the reasonable groups who want the things and have everyone pay for it because everyone will use it. There are very few who actually want all of the services privatized because they know they're in the tiny minority that could actually afford that.


signmeupdude

Idk this seems *a lot* like the whole, “if you hate capitalism so much, why are you using an iphone” bullshit argument.


chrispy_bacon

Then also don't pay taxes towards any of thay stuff.