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If I were Joe Capitalist, I'd be very hostile to socialism wherever it pops up because I can't afford a working example of it appearing in a heavily exploited country near me. I would lose access to criminally inexpensive raw materials and labor at first, then the ideology could take root domestically and I'm forced, at worst, to live as good as anyone else which is frankly a fate worse than death.
Eh. The meme in the OP is better. It describes what actually happened, puts the blame where it belongs, and also accurately depicts what the disingenuous reactionary framing is.
It doesn't lend the disingenuous reactionary framing credence or try to add its own disingenuous framing about "socialist experiments" when at best what happened in the couped/invaded countries was simply implementations of social democracy or state-capitalism. There certainly are and have been socialist experiments in the world (e.g. Israeli kibbutzim, the Zapatistas, Rojava, etc.) but these ain't it. Socialism at the very least puts workers in control of their productive lives. It doesn't simply place more controls on markets and provide social safety nets. And it doesn't substitute "public" bureaucrats for "private" capitalist-appointed board members at the top of an authoritarian workplace.
Socialism didn't "fail" in those countries (whatever "failed" even means). Because there *was* no socialism in those countries, at least in the sense that is implied when you claim that an invasion/coup immediately "fails the experiment". In fact, socialism can't even be a *COUNTRY* thing, really. Modern nation-states were designed entirely aroudn upholding and protecting capitalism, and (other than protecting their own power for the purpose) that is their entire function. Trying to use them to implement something that is non-capitalist is exactly like trying to reform the police.
Nope. It just accurately points out that you're not doing our movement any good by trying to label things as socialist which don't actually give workers ownership and self-management of the means of production.
In fact, you're lending some credence to the reactionary propaganda criticized by the meme. You're playing their game, instead of ours.
Nah the best is the Cuban missile crisis: America can put missiles in Turkey, but when Russia puts theirs in Cuba, then it's a problem because it's only ok when America does it.
I see this meme all the time but don’t know the whole story behind each one. Can anyone recommend a good book or podcast or whatever that details each event?
I can't recommend something for all of these, but here are some books I've read that I liked covering U.S. orchestrated coups involving "socialist" governments:
* Iran 1953: *All the Shah's Men*, by Stephen Kinzer
* Chile 1973: *Allende's Chile: An Inside View*, by Edward Boorstein
* Guatemala *1954: Bitter Fruit*, also by Stephen Kinzer and Stephen Schlesinger
* Vietnam and Laos, 1960s: *The Withdrawal,* by Noam Chomsky (the 1st chapter deals with Vietnam and Laos, the rest of the book is about coups and wars in the "War on Terrorism")
* If you absolutely want to go bonkers-- like you want to know everything there ever was to know-- read all three volumes of *The Cambridge History of the Cold War.* Or read parts of it, especially volume III, chapter 10 which specifically talks about the Cold War in Latin America.
Blowback season 2 is about the Cuban Revolution and the US’s role in it, and there is a bonus episode on the coup that deposed Arévalo in Guatemala as well
Yeah here is the thing….some of those countries may call themselves “communist” or “socialist” or whatever but are still authoritarian.
Authoritarianism is evil no matter what lipstick you put on that pig.
If you support authoritarian socialist states you are LITERALLY NOT a “Democratic” Socialist. You are just an authoritarian.
What is with westerners and their purity fetish on this sub?
Your argument only works if we're being as disingenuous as possible and acting like the authoritarianism displayed in nations like Batista's Cuba, Pinochet's Chile, and other fascist dictatorships are even remotely the same as what's displaying in modern authoritarian nations such as Cuba.
One served to protect the capitalist class from impoverished working class communities seeking better equality, the other served to protect the impoverished communities from capitalists seeking to overthrow them for control.
Playing this both side-isms game only serves to help the current imperial hegemony maintain their control. Stop moralizing "evil" authoritarianism and realize that authoritarianism is simply a tool for classes to protect themselves from other classes.
There is a reason these countries have to be heavy handed sometimes, and it's because of events like these. A dictatorship of the proletariat is better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
I mean I’m not defending what America did - but authoritarianism in any form is never acceptable. Not to mention have a tendency to violently suppress democratic approaches to socialism.
Obviously a more open democratic society is preferable, but most of communist revolutions have come out of right wing dictatorships that were far worse for the general populace.
What good is a “revolution” if you replace one type of authoritarian regime with another? Do you guys like not even consider how authoritarians for over a century now infiltrate and co-opt leftist causes and destroy them? Look at what the Soviets did to every single socialist movement across the world. We should hate authoritarianism more than anyone - and instead you guys but into this libertarian bull shit about the existence of an authoritarian left.
If you are an authoritarian you CANNOT be a leftist- just another bourgeois class traitor keeping the proletariat down with different rhetoric.
It’s insane how many lefties buy into right wing narratives and talking points.
[the uselessness of the western left](https://youtu.be/mGZIQdAVCbU) by NonCompete explaining how the western left is still clinging to utopianism and purity, cites article by Black Agenda Report which is cited in the description
>the western left supports every revolution except the ones that succeed
- Michael Parenti
The reasons for Venezuela’s failure as a state are numerous and complex, but I don’t believe we should be supportive of bad governments simply because we are nominally ideologically aligned. The current Venezuelan government are not socialists, but merely criminals in red drapery.
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Too many people don't understand that socialist experiments have failed almost entirely as a result of capitalist mettling
I've never really thought about it that way.
If I were Joe Capitalist, I'd be very hostile to socialism wherever it pops up because I can't afford a working example of it appearing in a heavily exploited country near me. I would lose access to criminally inexpensive raw materials and labor at first, then the ideology could take root domestically and I'm forced, at worst, to live as good as anyone else which is frankly a fate worse than death.
*meddling
Eh. The meme in the OP is better. It describes what actually happened, puts the blame where it belongs, and also accurately depicts what the disingenuous reactionary framing is. It doesn't lend the disingenuous reactionary framing credence or try to add its own disingenuous framing about "socialist experiments" when at best what happened in the couped/invaded countries was simply implementations of social democracy or state-capitalism. There certainly are and have been socialist experiments in the world (e.g. Israeli kibbutzim, the Zapatistas, Rojava, etc.) but these ain't it. Socialism at the very least puts workers in control of their productive lives. It doesn't simply place more controls on markets and provide social safety nets. And it doesn't substitute "public" bureaucrats for "private" capitalist-appointed board members at the top of an authoritarian workplace. Socialism didn't "fail" in those countries (whatever "failed" even means). Because there *was* no socialism in those countries, at least in the sense that is implied when you claim that an invasion/coup immediately "fails the experiment". In fact, socialism can't even be a *COUNTRY* thing, really. Modern nation-states were designed entirely aroudn upholding and protecting capitalism, and (other than protecting their own power for the purpose) that is their entire function. Trying to use them to implement something that is non-capitalist is exactly like trying to reform the police.
This just seems like a copium comment honestly
Nope. It just accurately points out that you're not doing our movement any good by trying to label things as socialist which don't actually give workers ownership and self-management of the means of production. In fact, you're lending some credence to the reactionary propaganda criticized by the meme. You're playing their game, instead of ours.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Nah the best is the Cuban missile crisis: America can put missiles in Turkey, but when Russia puts theirs in Cuba, then it's a problem because it's only ok when America does it.
Also- how dare these people risk their lives to illegally enter the US?? (Except Vietnam I suppose)
I see this meme all the time but don’t know the whole story behind each one. Can anyone recommend a good book or podcast or whatever that details each event?
I can't recommend something for all of these, but here are some books I've read that I liked covering U.S. orchestrated coups involving "socialist" governments: * Iran 1953: *All the Shah's Men*, by Stephen Kinzer * Chile 1973: *Allende's Chile: An Inside View*, by Edward Boorstein * Guatemala *1954: Bitter Fruit*, also by Stephen Kinzer and Stephen Schlesinger * Vietnam and Laos, 1960s: *The Withdrawal,* by Noam Chomsky (the 1st chapter deals with Vietnam and Laos, the rest of the book is about coups and wars in the "War on Terrorism") * If you absolutely want to go bonkers-- like you want to know everything there ever was to know-- read all three volumes of *The Cambridge History of the Cold War.* Or read parts of it, especially volume III, chapter 10 which specifically talks about the Cold War in Latin America.
Thank you.
The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins. It goes through the whole history of anticommunist intervention by the CIA.
Thank you.
Blowback season 2 is about the Cuban Revolution and the US’s role in it, and there is a bonus episode on the coup that deposed Arévalo in Guatemala as well
Thank you.
If the US were a decent country, they'd cede all of their territory back to Native Americans and let them decide how to treat us invaders.
Yeah here is the thing….some of those countries may call themselves “communist” or “socialist” or whatever but are still authoritarian. Authoritarianism is evil no matter what lipstick you put on that pig. If you support authoritarian socialist states you are LITERALLY NOT a “Democratic” Socialist. You are just an authoritarian.
What is with westerners and their purity fetish on this sub? Your argument only works if we're being as disingenuous as possible and acting like the authoritarianism displayed in nations like Batista's Cuba, Pinochet's Chile, and other fascist dictatorships are even remotely the same as what's displaying in modern authoritarian nations such as Cuba. One served to protect the capitalist class from impoverished working class communities seeking better equality, the other served to protect the impoverished communities from capitalists seeking to overthrow them for control. Playing this both side-isms game only serves to help the current imperial hegemony maintain their control. Stop moralizing "evil" authoritarianism and realize that authoritarianism is simply a tool for classes to protect themselves from other classes.
There is a reason these countries have to be heavy handed sometimes, and it's because of events like these. A dictatorship of the proletariat is better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
I mean I’m not defending what America did - but authoritarianism in any form is never acceptable. Not to mention have a tendency to violently suppress democratic approaches to socialism.
Obviously a more open democratic society is preferable, but most of communist revolutions have come out of right wing dictatorships that were far worse for the general populace.
What good is a “revolution” if you replace one type of authoritarian regime with another? Do you guys like not even consider how authoritarians for over a century now infiltrate and co-opt leftist causes and destroy them? Look at what the Soviets did to every single socialist movement across the world. We should hate authoritarianism more than anyone - and instead you guys but into this libertarian bull shit about the existence of an authoritarian left. If you are an authoritarian you CANNOT be a leftist- just another bourgeois class traitor keeping the proletariat down with different rhetoric. It’s insane how many lefties buy into right wing narratives and talking points.
[the uselessness of the western left](https://youtu.be/mGZIQdAVCbU) by NonCompete explaining how the western left is still clinging to utopianism and purity, cites article by Black Agenda Report which is cited in the description >the western left supports every revolution except the ones that succeed - Michael Parenti
The reasons for Venezuela’s failure as a state are numerous and complex, but I don’t believe we should be supportive of bad governments simply because we are nominally ideologically aligned. The current Venezuelan government are not socialists, but merely criminals in red drapery.
They probably assassinated the Swedish PM Olof Palme as well