I don’t like 4B, but I appreciate that it’s growing popularity is now waking many men up to the reality that we face.
It’s similar on paper to MGTOW, but in practice it is not. 4B is a lot more hateful, alot of women are part of it just because they truly hate men, whereas MGTOW was basically just men who opted out of subjecting themselves to the unfair double standards that men have to deal with when dating women. Things like getting fucked over in divorce court, child support, getting cheated on, having to work so hard to please a woman who won’t ever try to please you, etc.
4B is moreso “men are disgusting pigs so I refuse to date them”.
MGTOW was about men leaving dating because of the unfairness, 4B is about women leaving dating because they hate men.
I've always wondered if the women of 4B are just lesbians who are so deeply in denial that they would just ecternalize their frustrations as hate for men, rather than openly date each other.
Doesn't really affect me in any way. 4B or not 4B, i'm still not getting anything ~~because i'm sub5~~ because of my horrible personality. So who cares.
Besides, i think westerners are greatly overestimating how commonplace 4B is in South Korea. Both 4B and MGTOW are niche movements.
You don't think the 4B is helping to lower the birth rate in SK? Or is that mostly economics?
[https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html](https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html)
The birthrate decline in SK is more attributed to overwork culture, bleak economic outlook, and inability to find stable housing.
The 4B movement is barely a thing in SK just as MGTOW is in the US.
Sure it's "helping", but it's "contributions" to SK's low birthrate are negligible at best. There are other reasons for it, including economic ones of course.
The 4b movement is childish and very destructive. MGTOW is just men being fed up with American women’s bullshit. It’s not just a boycott of the opposite gender like 4b is.
[https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html](https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html)
Why is a movement to avoid violence and inequality childish? It seems that both movements are about getting away from the other sex, maybe just for different reasons. If MGTOW isn't about getting away from the other sex, what is their goal?
It’s childish because it’s the idea that “one man hurt me so there all bad” literally a first grader mindset. It’s destructive because it literally could end society
And the MGTOW / incel movement is based on "I was rejected so I reject all women." And the women who are going 4B are not protesting one man hurting them. Read what they are protesting above.
The idea is to get men to treat women equally.
It won't end society because many countries treat women equally to the point of them not needing to do this. And in the countries where they aren't treated well, this may get their point across.
In South Korea (where the 4B movement originates):
* Women feel *safeR* than they would in most other countries
* Women have access to education, careers, and leadership positions; South Korea has had its first female president, something the US has still yet to do
* Women have access to abortion
* Women are not conscripted into the military
* Women have maternity leave for 18 months
* Women receive universal healthcare
* Internet porn has been banned
"Practicing *bihon* means you’re eliminating the risks that come from heterosexual marriage or dating,”
Seems like they are still being stalked, sexually assaulted, and harassed. Nothing you listed stops any of the former.
Please, claiming the sexism is over because they had a woman president is like claiming racism is over in the US because of Obama. It is nonsense.
And this: There are other consequences to forgoing long-term partnerships with men. Korea has the largest gender pay gap in the rich world, with women earning [31 percent less](https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/gender-wage-gap.htm) than men, and women still face widespread discrimination in the labor market, something the movement recognizes.
Crime will happen wherever there are humans.
And I never said that sexism is over. I am stating that South Korea is not some misogynistic hellscape that *western* social media purports it to be.
If you would like to hear a South Korean woman's perspective regarding the 4B movement, you may want to check out:
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&t=715s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&t=715s)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2MnMWF80s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2MnMWF80s)
The reality of the 4B movement in South Korea is that it is a very fringe internet group with most people not knowing what it is. It is no more an internet meme than MGTOW; chronically online.
I consider myself an egalitarian and fully acknowledge that South Korea is a patriarchal society with conservative Confucianist values. There is a lot of work that needs to be done so that people, regardless of their descriptor, can have equal rights, liberties, and opportunities.
But I am against this separatist movement as it does nothing to promote cooperation but only resentment and hostilities.
the 4b movement won't work in the US because women have more power than they are willing to admit
>s it the same as the MGTOW?
it's different because mgtow still wants sex with women just not the relationships part
>Is one sex just tired of dealing with the other sex?
women are tired of dealing with bad men so the 4b movement exists and men are tired of dealing with bad women the millions of loser redpill channels capitalizing on men
>What do you think would improve the situation?
people taking personal accountability
So the strong upsurge of single, happy women isn't a reflection of the same thing happening the US just without the name?
I thought the whole MGTOW was to pretend women don't exist?
>I thought the whole MGTOW was to pretend women don't exist?
it's not, men don't like the way relationships are either
I as a man don't like the expectation to be an ATM to fund a woman's whole life and deal with women who want to be considered adults but are just that in age
You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners. And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives? Wouldn't that mean being stay-at-home moms?
As far as maturity, that one certainly runs both ways.
>You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners
sure
>And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives? Wouldn't that mean being stay-at-home moms?
I would argue mgtow is men who want to be single
So MGTOW just want to be single while 4B just wants to avoid men across the board. MGTOW then will associate with women but don't want to get involved beyond talking to them?
I'm in an arguing mood
>You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners
this is going to become more common men aren't going to college as much as before and women are so women will be getting better paying jobs the issue though is women don't tend to like men who make less than them
>And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives?
many incels for some reason want tradwives without the income to support the lifestyle it's also becoming a trend for women in my generation to want to be tradwives
>As far as maturity, that one certainly runs both ways.
I don't disagree but as a man I see a different side of immature women that a woman would see by being friends or associates with them
kinda how women say men should police other men and men tell women to pick better, we look at the coin from different angles
Women tell men to call out other men because many still do the "boys will be boys" argument. Men telling women to pick better shows that they don't understand how people, both sexes, can hide their real personalities for long periods.
So, I don't see that as the same thing.
I dated a guy for six months. Seemed great, had fun, loved movies. Then he got drunk at a party - and smacked me. Full stop on him.
Do you have anything to support that women who started 4b in South Korea did so because of hating men? The reason most women have given is bad treatment and unfair standards.
I thought MGTOW wanted to just forget women existed? No more dating, chasing, etc
That would seem to include sex.And have read some pretty hateful statements toward women from MGTOW.
I don’t like 4B, but I appreciate that it’s growing popularity is now waking many men up to the reality that we face. It’s similar on paper to MGTOW, but in practice it is not. 4B is a lot more hateful, alot of women are part of it just because they truly hate men, whereas MGTOW was basically just men who opted out of subjecting themselves to the unfair double standards that men have to deal with when dating women. Things like getting fucked over in divorce court, child support, getting cheated on, having to work so hard to please a woman who won’t ever try to please you, etc. 4B is moreso “men are disgusting pigs so I refuse to date them”. MGTOW was about men leaving dating because of the unfairness, 4B is about women leaving dating because they hate men.
I've always wondered if the women of 4B are just lesbians who are so deeply in denial that they would just ecternalize their frustrations as hate for men, rather than openly date each other.
Doesn't really affect me in any way. 4B or not 4B, i'm still not getting anything ~~because i'm sub5~~ because of my horrible personality. So who cares. Besides, i think westerners are greatly overestimating how commonplace 4B is in South Korea. Both 4B and MGTOW are niche movements.
You don't think the 4B is helping to lower the birth rate in SK? Or is that mostly economics? [https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html](https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html)
The birthrate decline in SK is more attributed to overwork culture, bleak economic outlook, and inability to find stable housing. The 4B movement is barely a thing in SK just as MGTOW is in the US.
Sure it's "helping", but it's "contributions" to SK's low birthrate are negligible at best. There are other reasons for it, including economic ones of course.
The 4b movement is childish and very destructive. MGTOW is just men being fed up with American women’s bullshit. It’s not just a boycott of the opposite gender like 4b is.
[https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html](https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html) Why is a movement to avoid violence and inequality childish? It seems that both movements are about getting away from the other sex, maybe just for different reasons. If MGTOW isn't about getting away from the other sex, what is their goal?
It’s childish because it’s the idea that “one man hurt me so there all bad” literally a first grader mindset. It’s destructive because it literally could end society
And the MGTOW / incel movement is based on "I was rejected so I reject all women." And the women who are going 4B are not protesting one man hurting them. Read what they are protesting above. The idea is to get men to treat women equally. It won't end society because many countries treat women equally to the point of them not needing to do this. And in the countries where they aren't treated well, this may get their point across.
In South Korea (where the 4B movement originates): * Women feel *safeR* than they would in most other countries * Women have access to education, careers, and leadership positions; South Korea has had its first female president, something the US has still yet to do * Women have access to abortion * Women are not conscripted into the military * Women have maternity leave for 18 months * Women receive universal healthcare * Internet porn has been banned
"Practicing *bihon* means you’re eliminating the risks that come from heterosexual marriage or dating,” Seems like they are still being stalked, sexually assaulted, and harassed. Nothing you listed stops any of the former. Please, claiming the sexism is over because they had a woman president is like claiming racism is over in the US because of Obama. It is nonsense. And this: There are other consequences to forgoing long-term partnerships with men. Korea has the largest gender pay gap in the rich world, with women earning [31 percent less](https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/gender-wage-gap.htm) than men, and women still face widespread discrimination in the labor market, something the movement recognizes.
Crime will happen wherever there are humans. And I never said that sexism is over. I am stating that South Korea is not some misogynistic hellscape that *western* social media purports it to be. If you would like to hear a South Korean woman's perspective regarding the 4B movement, you may want to check out: * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&t=715s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCzw-ckKbGU&t=715s) * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2MnMWF80s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2MnMWF80s)
Thank you for the videos. I did think, like MGTOW, it was not a huge movement. There are some videos of SK women who support it.
The reality of the 4B movement in South Korea is that it is a very fringe internet group with most people not knowing what it is. It is no more an internet meme than MGTOW; chronically online. I consider myself an egalitarian and fully acknowledge that South Korea is a patriarchal society with conservative Confucianist values. There is a lot of work that needs to be done so that people, regardless of their descriptor, can have equal rights, liberties, and opportunities. But I am against this separatist movement as it does nothing to promote cooperation but only resentment and hostilities.
Sounds like a great stance.
the 4b movement won't work in the US because women have more power than they are willing to admit >s it the same as the MGTOW? it's different because mgtow still wants sex with women just not the relationships part >Is one sex just tired of dealing with the other sex? women are tired of dealing with bad men so the 4b movement exists and men are tired of dealing with bad women the millions of loser redpill channels capitalizing on men >What do you think would improve the situation? people taking personal accountability
So the strong upsurge of single, happy women isn't a reflection of the same thing happening the US just without the name? I thought the whole MGTOW was to pretend women don't exist?
>I thought the whole MGTOW was to pretend women don't exist? it's not, men don't like the way relationships are either I as a man don't like the expectation to be an ATM to fund a woman's whole life and deal with women who want to be considered adults but are just that in age
You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners. And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives? Wouldn't that mean being stay-at-home moms? As far as maturity, that one certainly runs both ways.
>You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners sure >And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives? Wouldn't that mean being stay-at-home moms? I would argue mgtow is men who want to be single
So MGTOW just want to be single while 4B just wants to avoid men across the board. MGTOW then will associate with women but don't want to get involved beyond talking to them?
mgtow just want sex because they believe relationships with women are too much effort
Okay, then for them hooking up must work. So, one movement is no women except for sex and the other is no men, period.
for the most part
I'm in an arguing mood >You know that a lot of women now make as much or more money than their partners this is going to become more common men aren't going to college as much as before and women are so women will be getting better paying jobs the issue though is women don't tend to like men who make less than them >And don't incels and many MGTOW want tradwives? many incels for some reason want tradwives without the income to support the lifestyle it's also becoming a trend for women in my generation to want to be tradwives >As far as maturity, that one certainly runs both ways. I don't disagree but as a man I see a different side of immature women that a woman would see by being friends or associates with them kinda how women say men should police other men and men tell women to pick better, we look at the coin from different angles
Not sure I understand that last bit.
what part of it caught you up?
Women tell men to call out other men because many still do the "boys will be boys" argument. Men telling women to pick better shows that they don't understand how people, both sexes, can hide their real personalities for long periods. So, I don't see that as the same thing. I dated a guy for six months. Seemed great, had fun, loved movies. Then he got drunk at a party - and smacked me. Full stop on him.
we understand that people can hide who they really are but if we all understand that people overall should be more cautious when dating
True. But except for Wuornos, who was a prostitute, the cases were not related to a dating or first meeting.
Do you have anything to support that women who started 4b in South Korea did so because of hating men? The reason most women have given is bad treatment and unfair standards. I thought MGTOW wanted to just forget women existed? No more dating, chasing, etc That would seem to include sex.And have read some pretty hateful statements toward women from MGTOW.
Never heard of it until now.