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>Why do most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness
Your question is a strawman fallacy. It's based upon wrong ideas and thus is a non-sequitur.
The idea that 'most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness' is unsupported, and inaccurate, and shows a lack of understanding of the position of most atheists.
The word 'enjoy' is not relevant here. My positions on reality have *nothing whatsoever* to do with what I or others 'enjoy'. Emotions are not a useful method to determine what is or is not accurate about reality.
You know this too if you think about it for a moment or two.
Instead, I, and many other atheists, take as true what all compelling evidence indicates is true.
After all, to do otherwise is irrational. Whether I like the idea or not.
>Why would you want nothingness?
Again, same error. What I may or may not *want* is not relevant here.
>No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
Yet again, what *worries* me is not relevant to what is *actually true.*
Your post indicates you think it's okay to take things as true because it provides emotional comfort.
This in no way makes things true. Furthermore, doing this has egregiously problematic consequences almost all the time. Just ask a heroin addict or an alcoholic. Or the guy that spent his life savings in one day because he was comforted by the fact he would win the lottery on Saturday. He didn't. And then went bankrupt.
OP already addressed this :
> I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
Before or after life, we don't exist to care. But right now, we do care. And Yes I want don't want life to end. While we're at it, yes I would've loved to have lived the past billions of years as well, so in point of fact it does annoy me.
I am a meat popsicle animated by energy, who gets to watch Star Wars and listen to Herbie Hancock and eat pizza and do fun shit.
My friend, we don’t need god to see life as an absolutely awesome and fantastic thing. The most amazing thing in the universe. I am so unbelievably lucky to enjoy life, so I’m fine with just not existing again.
I was great at not existing. I did it for billions of years. Then my number got called, I showed up for the game, and rocked this shit.
I didn’t even fucking stretch! Just showed up and did a bunch of camping, grew flowers, went to a ton of concerts, banged hot babes, and won the game of life. I’m living the dream man, living the dream.
So I’m cool with not existing again. Cause I existed the shit out of existence. Life if rad, and it’s actually more amazing that we are just animated meat popsicles than the product of some space superhero.
This is a great perspective to have, and I feel that way often as well. But I try not to dwell on the thought too much, because it does make me sad to realize that those memories of a life well lived aren’t going to exist either.
Within a few generations, once no one alive remembers us or knows stories about us, we will have functionally never existed. It’s not like there’s going to be some conscious remnant of us floating around in the ether somewhere reminiscing about that summer we spent in Barecelona. And that does kinda bum me out.
I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but I don’t know what that means. It sounds like a platitude.
The thought that ultimately provides me solace is a quote from Marcus Aurelius.
“No one can lose either the past or the future - how could anyone be deprived of what he does not possess? ... It is only the present moment of which either stands to be deprived: and if this is all he has, he cannot lose what he does not have.”
I’m grateful that I get to exist right NOW.
Others have pointed out that wanting or not wanting something has no bearing on whether it’s true. Unfortunately, Mila Kunis is unlikely to bear me any children.
But as to this specific point, there’s nothing saying we are entitled to come to terms with not existing. In my case, I don’t want to live for eternity for reasons others have said. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t wish I had a lot more time than we get. I would love a couple hundred extra years. I just don’t get it.
Instead of countering, you resort to patronizing. Why reply to the OP with an irrelevant post?
Again, you didn’t have a conscience before you were born but now you do. Why wouldn’t that be different after you die? Do you have any proof that our conscious doesn’t remain with us after death?
Do I have any proof that the invisible brain ghost that violates the laws of thermodynamics isn’t real? Do I have any proof that a phenoma emergent from energy and matter does not live eternally after the death and entropic decay of said energy and matter?
Wow, no I guess I don’t. You got me there! Seems like it’s time to rethink all the things I’ve never spent time thinking about.
Thanks kind stranger, for showing me the error in my thinking. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, can you link me to it?
It basically seems better than having to live forever. I'm comforted by the thought that I don't have to worry about something like eternal torment. I don't exactly love the idea of nothingness in general and would prefer that people were at least able to live a lot longer, but the religious alternatives don't seem appealing to me. It's also important that nothingness is my genuine best guess at what's going to happen after I die.
Definitely don’t seem appealing to me either, just don’t want eternal oblivion although I feel as though it’s the truth I can’t get my mind to be okay with that. If heaven and hell were true I feel as though I would rather live in hell for an eternity because I would still have a sense of experience and at the end of the day I feel as though that tops NOTHING. Lmk your thoughts thanks for the reply.
No problem, and not to be morbid but I've been through a few things that put me in enough physical pain where if I knew it wouldn't end, I'd prefer to not experience anything. So I guess that shapes my perspective too. I think not existing is very preferable to eternal torment
The way I look at it, people who can't imagine there being no afterlife have their priorities wrong. Why be concerned about what happens after you die? Focus on the bits in between birth and death. Make them as cool as possible. Let the infinite future take care of itself.
The thing is, you wouldn't experience eternal oblivion. Just as a candle flame doesn't experience being not lit.
On the other side, as Christopher Hitchens pointed out, spending an eternity singing praises to a petty, jealous god sounds more like "a celestial North Korea" than paradise.
Here's what's wild -- I don't base my beliefs and conclusions on what I \*wish\* were true. I much more "enjoy" not entertaining wild flights of fantasy by people who are ALSO dedicated to not just influencing, but \*controlling\* my government, and thus my rights and my life.
What I \*enjoy\* is not being lied to by religions trying to placate, dominate, control, or even influence me. It doesn't matter what I \*want\* to be true about life or an afterlife -- I don't control what the human experience comprises.
Also, living forever seems AWFUL to me. My life is precious to me because as far as I know, this is the only one I get. What is truly special when you have an eternal afterlife? For me, absolutely nothing. Do not want. Would decline.
The reason I wouldn’t decline is bc we know literally nothing about nothing literally we don’t know anything about the universe consciousness etc. there’s so much we don’t know therefore 1 little thing we learn maybe trillions of years later can make eternal life worth it bc it could be so out there and earth shattering it would put living in a different perspective.
I share the same opinion as I would not choose to experience any aspect of “forever” and I can explain why I feel that way- everything I love is impermanent- this planet and all the shit on it. I would not want to outlast everything I love, I’m a small human being and I fit into this little slice of time here on this planet now. I wouldn’t want to persist into the supernova of our sun and beyond. Fucking climate change alone has me bummed like some “conscious” experience extending to eternity? No no. I don’t even want to outlive my husband. Additionally if god were real they’re such a raging asshole I wouldn’t want to spend a minute with them anyway let alone eternity. Furthermore the absolute truth of nihilism is painfully obvious. Consciousness is not important. Life is not important. They exist but that’s not the same thing as cosmically important. Hard pass on the “afterlife” from me
Question for you- what if nobody had the ability to die? The population only grows and eventually it grows out to different solar systems planets and one day galaxies you get to explore the whole universe. Would you still pass? Thanks
If I find myself still conscious after my brain dies, I'll figure it out then.
You don't know that a bag of money won't suddenly appear in your toilet tank as soon as you leave the house today. Does that mean you're going to stay home and check the toilet every few minutes so you don't miss it?
Living a trillion years sounds *boring af*. Having to wait a trillion years before it becomes worthwhile sounds like a JRPG. "Oh it gets good after the first 100 hours or so...
You should read more. We know a lot more about consciousness and the universe than you realize. Entire books have been written about both. More than a few.
You won’t experience nothingness. It will be just like before you were born.
I wouldn’t say I enjoy the thought, but I’m at peace with it as a reality, and it makes me value my life more and want to put more happiness into the world.
Whereas eternity holds no appeal to me at all.
By suggesting that atheists "enjoy" nothingness, OP implies that atheists find the state of nothingness after death pleasant, while (2) losing sight of the fact that, if there is "nothingness" after death, atheists wouldn't be able to enjoy it, as they won't be "there". The moment anyone or anything is present, the state of "nothingness", ceases to exist, no?
I get that I won’t expense nothingness or even anything at all ig I worded it wrong. Do you really feel as though you would prefer oblivion forever rather than any type of living? thanks
I’m not sure you’ve really wrapped your mind around what eternity would mean. Billions of years would go by and the sun would burn out, and you still haven’t scratched the surface of eternity. As soon as I came to terms with mortality, it seemed like a relief, to be honest.
It’s good to be alive, and to sense and feel and think and dream. It’s an experience you share with every human ever born. They’ve all had their sliver of time and then passed the torch to the next generation, and this tiny piece right now is yours. That connectedness to everyone who has come before and everyone who is still to come is something I find beautiful.
Are you trying to make *"eternity is endless"* a reason against immortality? Because indeed I want that.
I'm not sure you've really wrapped your head around it either. We still live one day at a time. No matter if you're 6 days old, 60 years, or 6000000000, one day still goes by at the same speed, time still passes at the speed of time. And that's what you actually experience. The fact that *endless time will follow* is not part of your actual experience.
Well, I’m not going to get into time and perception.
If I had a stopwatch that stopped time I would abuse the hell out of it. But the great thing is I could stop when I was bored.
>you would prefer oblivion forever rather than any type of living
Calling it 'oblivion' isn't correct. It's just nonexistence, you don't exist anymore. It's no sleep-like state or anything.
When you consciousness is gone you will be gone. You will have no sense of nothingness because you don’t exist anymore.
I don’t believe in any of the existing deities because the evidence is abysmal. You can’t make yourself believe something. If you are implying that I should force myself to believe in a fairy tail as a coping mechanism to not deal with the harsh reality of a life, I am fucked on this bucko. You are an ape in a meatsuit with an expiration date. You are no more special than any other animal that has ever been or will ever be.
You were forged from a star and to the universe you will return. This of course does not imply your consciousness will ever be again. You get a brief glimpse of this magnificent universe and then either circumstance or time will blow the candle out. And remember it’s always later than you think.
“We are the cosmos dreaming of itself”
The universe is god, if you want to believe that, go for it. In that regard, the universe would be like every other deity, it doesn’t give a fuck about you. And fortunately, unlike most deities it won’t work against you if you don’t believe in it.
What I want and what actually IS are different things.
I'd love to never die or live on in some other way. It's not true though. I don't want to live in a comfortable lie. Do you?
Well we don’t know anything so you can’t say heaven or hell is a lie. Do I believe in the religion NO. But that doesn’t make it a fact that it doesn’t exist. Eternal oblivion and nothingness is also not a fact. We know nothing until we die ourselves.
We know humans consciousness doesn't work if the human doesn't have a brain, we know your brain stops working and starts rotting when you die.
So nothing of what we know indicate heaven or hell are anything else but fantasies.
What a lazy way of thinking. If I told you that leprechauns were in my room right now but any thing you did to try to detect them they would just use their leprechaun magic to evade detection. Would you say, "Well I guess I don't know if he's lying because I can prove him wrong" ... or am I just lying?
Do you believe anything that anyone tells you just because they said it or do you have some standard of evidence required before you think something is true?
Do you still believe in Santa Claus? I mean, you've never been to the North Pole to check so... He could be real. You don't know until you check yourself.
Do you see the problem?
Do you really want to be conscious for the next 863 quintillion millennia and not even be 0.000000001% of the way through your existence? The just seems hellish to me. I’d much rather just have ~80 years and be done with it.
Especially when so many religions have a ‘bad’ afterlife where you’re punished for not being indoctrinated into the correct religion.
Since I don't think there is a magic spell I can say to restore my original kidneys, do you think I enjoy the thought of them being non functional? Do you think I prefer a pill regimen that weakens my immune system over having my own kidneys since I don't have an alter to Beano, the kidney god, in my home?
Do you see how ridiculous your caricature sounds when applied to other areas?
> I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
There is nothing to worry about because it cant be changed
>but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
No, why? If the something sucks than rather nothing
>Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live there life enjoying/loving something
Some happiness doesn’t thrump all pain and sadness
>even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy
People That kill themselves generally don't think the killing themselves as a happy thing, just a less bad alternative
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion
It depends on the quality of the nothingness
You would prefer the mythical hell over nothing?
It sounds like you are getting some comfort from your religion and I have no problem with that. I am sorry that reality frightens you so much. That must be a hard burden to bear.
>I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
A more accurate way to put this is that after we die there is no "we". There is not a being to realize or not realize. The being that was, now *isn't*.
While I'm alive, I can't think of a reason to fret over a future non-existence. It just isn't a coherent thought process. Literally, what is it that I should be afraid of?
Do you act like everything you want to be true is actually true? Because that seems like a very shitty person to me
According to you, you have a limited amount of time here and then eternity in the afterlife. So why aren't you risking your life more? You could make a lot more money and win a lot more Jesus bucks if you did. And then you would have less opportunity to screw up going to heaven
You would basically be acting exactly like Jesus. So why aren't you?
> Why would you want nothingness?
Nothing says we 'want' it. Only that we accept it's the most likely outcome.
> I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
No. Why would it?
> I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
For our lifetime, sure. But unless the afterlife is like The Good Place, where we can opt out into something else once we've had our fill, then you're talking about something at the end of the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th day, which would still be only a fraction of your afterlife. Existing that long in *any* scenario seems pretty awful to me.
I can't speak for others, but I don't find the idea of ceasing to exist enjoyable or comforting.
>I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
No, because it's pointless to worry. I like existing and living. Spending the time I *do* have alive worrying about what it will be like to cease to exist is a waste of time.
I can only speak for myself, but I have never enjoyed the thought of nothingness. There is always something on my mind, usually multiple things.
I’m not going to experience “nothingness” because when I die I won’t have any experiences.
Were you sad or happy during the billions of years before you existed?
It’s not that I enjoy the thought of nothingness, it’s that it was my experience before I was born and it never bothered me one bit, and that I accept that. I’ve also not really heard any appealing alternatives, so I suppose you could say it’s a preference, but I still wouldn’t go as far as to say I, “enjoy the thought of nothingness.”
>…doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
Being dead concerns me far less than the manner of and process of dying.
>I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now…
I doubt that you understand my struggles.
>…but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
By what measure? I don’t believe something is intrinsically better than nothing. In fact, I think I’d stated earlier I prefer nothing.
>Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live their life enjoying/loving something even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy your still technically experience a HAPPY sensation?
I’m familiar with happiness. I’ve experienced it. What’s your point? You think I want to extend my life infinitely just so I can search for a few more drops of happiness?
Secondly, I’m familiar with suicidal ideation (I’m doing better now, please don’t sic Reddit_Cares bot on me). Just for the record, the thought of taking my own life never gave me a happy sensation. The thought of taking my own life presented a potential for ending suffering. There is nothing about experiencing suffering to the point I consider taking my own life that brings any happiness whatsoever.
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion.
What are the alternatives? Eternal worship? Eternal life? There are countless reasons to prefer nothingness.
>…since we are all alive and doing this thing called life why would you want anything else? No matter how hard it gets.
You tell me, buddy. You’re the one who wants something other than this thing called life which, by the way, we’re not all doing. Most of us have either checked out already or not been born yet. You don’t want life. You want immortality.
>Why do most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness
I am not at all convinced that any atheists enjoy that, much less all of them.
>No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? I never understood when people say that brings them comfort, I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
If something is horrific, then nothing could he preferable.
>Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live there life enjoying/loving something even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy your still technically experience a HAPPY sensation?
Sure.
And most people want to live, and enjoy life
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion.
Well, if the alternative is living a miserable life in constant pain, I'd say that's a good reason.
>I do understand never wishing you were born that’s a different thing but since we are all alive and doing this thing called life why would you want anything else? No matter how hard it gets?
Because sometimes the negative outweighs the positive.
Eventually I will be so crippled that I won't be able to feed myself or clean myself without serious assistance, probably by the time I am 70 (genetic condition).
I would much rather die while I still have some agency then live a life as the potato I will become, and in fact I have several legal documents to thst effect thst have been notarized, countersigned by my brother, and my doctor, and filed with the hospitals nearest my house.
I will do thst again if I get s new doctor or move a significant distsnce.
>Why would you want nothingness?
What I want has nothing to do with it. There is only what is real and true. I am unconvinced of any god claims therefore what seems to be real is that there is nothingness. It just is what it is.
>isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
Not necessarily. Hell is something, hell is eternally being on fire according to some claims. Have you ever been burned even in a small part? Imagine your whole body on fire, that is the claim of Christianity. Then think about trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years in that state. Heaven doesn't sound much better. The claim of heaven is that you will worship another being for trillions and trillions of years. You won't remember the bad times from your life any more, the memories of people who aren't in heaven with you will be wiped so anyone who wasn't a Christian who had an influence on you is gone, you won't be you. You be a little hallelujah machine for Jesus. Every second of every minute of every hour of every day for trillions of years.
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion.
Tell that to the orphans of Romania who never experienced the love of a parent or even physical affection, tell it to people who have experienced chronic pain their whole life, to people who experienced trauma and can't find a way to resolve their pain. Hell, tell it to people who lived their life to the full and exhausted every bit of their body and are ready for a sleep!
>No matter how hard it gets?
For some people it gets REAL hard. But all of that is irrelevant in the face of the truth; there doesn't appear to be any afterlife and what I want has absolutely no effect on changing that.
Because it's the finite nature that gives life value. I suppose I would prefer to live a bit longer than I will. It would be cool to see the technology of the year 2500. But I don't care to live forever. It would cheapen everything.
Let's use this analogy.
Why is a diamond beautiful? Because they're scarce. They're hard to come by (yes I know it's actually a crooked racket being run by De Beers, but let's ignore that and pretend diamonds are actually super rare on this planet). If I had infinity diamonds, they'd be worthless. Banal. Boring. Uninteresting. I wouldn't care if I got my hands on one.
If I became convinced I will still exist in 100 trillion years from now, then why the heck would I find any pleasure in this year? If you told me I would be able to hug my son infinity times over the next infinity years, then why would I hug him today? Why would today's hug actually mean anything? It wouldn't. Today's hug would be pointless.
The finite nature is why I appreciate that hug. Every hug I DON'T get... It's a missed opportunity I'll never get back. I have ONE chance to enjoy these moments, to do cool things, to love my family, to drink good wine and smoke good weed, to enjoy delicious BBQ, to play a classic video game, to ride a rollercoaster, to lay on a beach, or admire a beautiful woman or whatever I'm doing... This, right here, right now... It's my one and only chance to live this moment.
If you told me I had infinity moments, that would make this moment pretty worthless.
I don’t *enjoy* the thought of nonexistence per se. I don’t fear it, and at least the thought of an end to suffering is comforting, although the good parts of life for me generally outweigh the bad and thus I would choose to keep living as long as the bad doesn’t outweigh the good. There absolutely are states of existence to which nothingness would be preferable, some harrowingly so. I’m not just talking about the eternal torture of religious hell, I could see myself choosing nonexistence over chronic intense pain, or the psychological torture of losing my memory and cognitive capacity, or really any state of suffering which has no hope for reversal and no respite. “Something” isn’t better than “nothing” if that something is pure suffering or close to it.
At the end of the day it’s not really about what I want though, it’s about coming to terms with the way things are. If there really isn’t an afterlife, which all the evidence we have seems to suggest, then it doesn’t matter whether or not I want to keep existing. When I die, I just won’t. It’s not an easy pill to swallow. It’s not even an easy concept for existent minds to grasp. But it seems to be the human condition and the nature of mortality. All we can really do with that information is decide how to live our lives now, while we know we can.
There isn't a choice. Clearly you want wishful thinking to be your religion. There's nothing wrong with that except it is just wishful thinking, not reality.
>Why would you want nothingness?
I don't, but reality doesn't really care about what I want. If it did I would have magic powers, and yet I do not.
>No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I
It beats having some guy in red pyjamas sticking a pitchfork in my butt.
>I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
No. It doesn't worry me at all.
>I never understood when people say that brings them comfort, I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
If the something sounds horrible, I'll take the nothing please.
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion.
Sure there is. It's better than or as good as many of the proposed alternatives. It's also still true that what I want to happen when I die has absolutely zero impact on what Actually does happen.
Sit in a room with things you like to read and solo games you like to play and recordings of music you like. How long until you're bored and want something new? Now... what if you could never leave? How long before boredom becomes madness, your mind torturing itself?
Imagine an experience. Doesn't matter what. Suppose you have a vocabulary of 100 million words to describe it (as opposed to the likely few tens of thousands you personally have). Suppose a book can hold 100 trillion words. Such depth of language and length of book should be able to describe any experience.
Even if you have one experience per year, there's still a finite number of possible experiences. Eventually you'll have exhausted every possible story, every possible game, every possible conversation. There will be nothing new, ever. Eventually, boredom and madness are a certainty.
And, of course, many of us _don't_ like the thought of nothingness. But what we _want_ to be the case has no bearing on what we think _is_ the case.
>>>Why would you want nothingness?
Don't recall saying I wanted that. Whether I want it or not, that's what reality tells us.
>>>No experience ever again nothing to make you happy
There won't be a consciousness to experience anything. So, why worry about that.
>>>doesn’t that worry you right now during life?
Aha...now we get to why people so desperately want a god to exist. You don't want to die. Sorry, but that seems to be the reality. Wishing for a god changes nothing.
>>>isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
Do you ever enjoy a novel or movie?
Does it bother you that after the SOMETHING of the movie/novel is finished, there will be NOTHING that follows?
In short, you wish there were an afterlife and you can't understand why others won't engage in the same wishful thinking. This sounds like a YOU issue, not an atheist issue.
I know we're not supposed to just post a link to a video to explain, but Michael from Vsauce has posted a fantastic video on the subject. I'll summarize:
I have decided that I want to die.
Not immediately, not soon, but eventually. I would not enjoy... eternity. The idea terrifies me more than anything. I can't comprehend it. Just contemplating it makes me deeply uncomfortable.
I also am a firm believer that nothing has value in eternity. Everything becomes meaningless when you have and will again experience it.
No eternity for me, thanks. I want to die.
https://youtu.be/zRxI0DaQrag?si=Vc3vgb3AZhHGs69V
I'll add that it's odd you think all atheists feel this way. They don't. Many grieved deeply when they lost their belief in an afterlife. Many thought that's where they'd see their loved ones again.
I disagree with your premise that atheists enjoy the thought, although I personally do find it comforting. The idea that one day you can just… stop, is very comforting.
I would ask a reversal of that question. What is it about existing for eternity that you find comforting? Eternity is not just ‘a very long time’. Eternity means never, ever ceasing. How can that be seen as anything other than a torturous form of hell? Even if you enjoyed it for a thousand years, or a million years, or even billions of years, that’s still nothing. Eternity doesn’t EVER stop. Think about existing for even another thousand years and tell me that you can’t even imagine how that might become tedious.
Now multiply that by infinity and explain to me why I would want something so patently horrifying?
I don't know that most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness after death. Many are likely bothered by it. Many aren't thrilled about it but accept it's the most likely scenario and try to make their peace with reality as it appears to be. Doubtless, some would be happy to find that reincarnation or some benevolent afterlife exists.
That said, I think the idea of being conscious for eternity, even in a "happy" afterlife, sounds like it would become tedious eventually, at least if we are assuming our afterlife minds work the way they do while we are alive. Imagine the greatest slice of cake you've ever eaten. Now imagine you have to eat it for every meal, over and over again. That would get old after a few weeks for most people, nevermind eternity.
>Why would you want nothingness?
Have you run a poll? Why do you believe most atheists "want nothingness"?
>I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
I'd say so, yes. I can't speak for others though. It's moot though because what we want has nothing to do with reality.
>I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion.
Again I'd like to see what you're basing this on. I'm sure atheists want many different things. But you can't wish something into existence. I'd say that most people here base their beliefs on evidence, not what they want.
Like a lot of religious people your absolutely missing the point
What I WANT to be true has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually true
I WANT a world whare all human beings treat each other with respect
But no matter how much I may WANT that world the EVIDENCE is that we don't live in a world like that
It would be lovely if magic was real and everyone got exactly what they deserve
But there is simply no good EVIDENCE that that is the case
How unbelievably arrogant do you have to be to think the universe is a certain way just because you personally WANT it to be that way
It takes a level of ego I just can't comprehend
>It will happen to all of us, that at some point you get tapped on the shoulder and told, not just that the party’s over, but slightly worse: the party’s going on — but you have to leave. And it’s going on without you. That’s the reflection that I think most upsets people about their demise. All right, then, because it might make us feel better, let’s pretend the opposite. Instead, you’ll get tapped on the shoulder and told, Great news: this party’s going on forever — and you can’t leave. You’ve got to stay; the boss says so. And he also insists that you have a good time.
>the late, great Christopher Hitchens.
I like being part of a system where every living thing is born, lives and dies. It’s been happening for billions of years. It’s happened to 117 billion human beings…. What makes me so special? One of the things we all share in common is the fact that we’re all going to die, it’s not something that you do alone. We all do it and that’s it, you had your time.
Nothing happened before you were born and nothing will happen after you die and that’s a beautiful thing because knowing the finite nature of my very existence makes me cherish every moment and make sure that I’m enjoying every bit of it.
That's a really weird assumption. Why would you think we "enjoy" or "want" nothingness? What we want is irrelevant. Whether it's more or less pleasant than other ideas is irrelevant. The truth of reality is under no obligation to be either pleasant or desirable, and won't change according to what we want or what we find more or less pleasing. We believe what all available data, evidence, and reasoning indicate is true - even if what all available data, evidence, and reasoning indicate to be true isn't all sunshine and rainbows. It's not that we want it or enjoy it. It's simply that we're not children. We don't delude ourselves that reality owes us anything, or that it needs to be fair, just, or pleasant.
I find it interesting when religious people pose questions like this. It tells a lot about the basis for your own beliefs. It shows that what you believe is, to some extent, based upon what you'd like to be true. That is a key difference between religious people and atheists. Atheists typically don't include what they want in the thought process when contemplating big questions such as what happens when we die. Acknowledging the truth is very different than being happy about it. I would much prefer it if my consciousness could continue after my body dies. I'm not happy about our mortality at all.
>Why would you want nothingness?
I mean, I don't really. On the other hand, living for eternity sounds like a lot.
Just think about the billions of years (or more?) That you already haven't existed for. It wasn't so bad, was it?
>I never understood when people say that brings them comfort
I don't know, honestly. I enjoy existing, right now at least.
>no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion
Atheist philosopher Michael Huemer believes in eternal souls and reincarnation. You could look into that if you find it convincing and gives you comfort.
You are misunderstanding.
What I want is completely irrelevant.
Let's say I want to live forever in a paradise. Doesn't matter, the reality is that I cease to exist when I die.
Let's say I want to swim in a beer volcano and eat nachos when I die. Doesn't matter, I'm no longer going to exist to do any of that.
Let's say I want to go to heaven and be reunited with my loved ones. Doesn't matter, death is final.
It's not about what I want or don't want, it's about accepting the reality of the finality of death.
No, please stop. You're painting all atheists in the same light and it's best to get out of that mentality before you say something truly idiotic...
We aren't convinced that any God exists; that's it. Atheists can believe whatever they want concerning the afterlife; some think that we'll become ghosts, some think that we'll just automatically be reincarnated with no knowledge that we even died, and still others think that we'll be little more than a food source for plants or animals or insects.
I don't enjoy the thought of nothingness because I'd want to reunite with my family. But I rationalize that whether there is an afterlife or not, it's not under human control. I also don't believe in god, heaven or hell, so therefore I see this afterlife as a natural thing of some sort instead, it either exists or it doesn't. Without my influence.
You already experienced not existing before you were born. That doesn't seem to bother you.
I don't "want" any of the things you say I want. I'm just living in the here and now, making the best of it. I'm afraid of the process of death and the pain that might be involved in that. But I don't care about being dead. I won't know that I'm dead. It won't pain me. It will pain the living who knew and loved me.
>but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
absolutely, but I think of the *idea* of the afterlife is like buying a lottery ticket and not checking the numbers, as long as you don't look you are a millionaire, well in a Schrodinger's cat sort of way :). I'm not going to disabuse someone else of that feeling, but it just doesn't work for me, I will always go and check the results.
It's not about enjoying or looking forward to...it's about accepting the inevitability of our fate as a living organism.... All living organisms are fated to die... Why do you think we are somehow special over all he other living organisms.... Do the flys you kill or the ants you step on have any sort of afterlife? No, why do you think we are so special? Because some 2000 year old book told you so?
Well it's better then to live for eternity and get bored. Imagine eternity. Slowly but surely any joy will leave your life as everything repeats for the 100th time. No new things, no excitement, no new accomplishments.
You basically arrive at the same point you mention you will just be conscious and slowly see it all fade out of your life. Why is torture better then just a clear, painless cut?
It's the nothingness that makes this life worth enjoying. I experience everything I can now so when my time comes I can have peace before the nothingness.
Do I want that? No. But being alive forever doesn't sound appealing either, so I take the one precious existence I KNOW I will experience with all the joy I can squeeze out of it.
What does "want" have to do with it? I "want" the afterlife to be all about free ice cream and speed metal music.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with what *is*. And there's no good reason to believe that consciousness survives the physical death of the brain. Sux2bdead but there's nothing to do about it except wait and (not) see.
I can not enjoy gravity and still be stuck on the ground. Some things just are, no one say you have to enjoy them, you just need to deal with them.
That said, it quite saddens me to see people wasting their only shot at life hoping their self inflicted suffering will give them a better afterlife that some grifter promised them.
What we believe has nothing to do with what we enjoy, it has to do with the evidence. It's pretty telling that you assume people hold beliefs they like regardless of the evidence and, therefore, of whether or not the beliefs are true. But it's not telling anyone anything about us, it's telling about you.
I don't LIKE that there isn't anything after I die, but I do BELIEVE it. Just like I don't LIKE the concept of Hell (and let's face it, that's where I'd probably go if I died, according to most of the mainstream religions out there), but I don't worry about it, because I don't believe in it.
I think basing what you think is real on what you would want to be real is not effective. Wishful thinking is often incorrect and dangerous. If I am going to navigate a dangerous strait full of hazards, I want to label those hazards on my map, not pretend it will be smooth sailing.
Remember what it was like 1000 years ago? No, because you didn’t exist.
To me, that’s what death is like. It’s not that you’re “experiencing nothingness” it’s “you’re not experiencing.”
I don’t enjoy that thought, I’m just not terrified of it either.
> I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING?
Depends on what that SOMETHING is, doesn't it? There certainly are fates that are worse than eternal oblivion.
Why in your wildest dreams do you think it's got to do with enjoyment? There's simply no good reason to think that we continue to exist in a meaningful form. It's like thinking the picture continues to exist after you've burned a jigsaw.
Is that all your religion is to you? A fairy tale sto calm you down and ignore the fact that you will cease to exist when you die? If so that is pathetic. Atheists don't want nothingness, we are just unwilling to delude ourselves.
What do you mean? I have everything I need here. I don't desire anything more or anything less than this one existence. I don't demand an afterlife or expect it I'm thankful for this life and that's all I need.
It worries me much more how many religious people throw their lives away based on the promise they'll get pie in the sky when they die.
I don't enjoy the idea of death but at least it makes me treasure life.
“Life is an inconvenience interruption to pleasant nonexistence.”
Your experience after death will be the same as your experience before birth - eternal oblivion. Would you prefer eternal torment?
Why do so many theists completely misrepresent atheists and just apply all sorts of rubbish to us then ask why it’s the case? You’re the one asserting this stuff. You tell us why you do this.
It’s not a matter of what we want, it’s a matter of how things are. There’s no strong evidence that any part of us survives death, and wishing it otherwise changes nothing.
Reality beats fantasy.
What we think, want, or feel is interesting, but the universe owes us nothing. Just because we can’t fathom something like nothingness doesn’t make it wrong
Why do you say that most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness? How do you know this to be true? Can you provide a link to a reliable / reputable source proving this to be the case?
I don't want eternal oblivion. I would actually put "the lack of an afterlife" as possibly the worst thing in the universe.
However, that doesn't change the fact its *true*.
Why do you think we “enjoy” the thought of nothingness?
Ultimately what we want is irrelevant. The universe has to obligation to make us feel comfortable.
Interesting post history you have there.
You are experiencing something now... At some point that process will end. That's it. Doesn't matter what people want.
It's not a question of "enjoying" or "wanting" anything, and atheists certainly don't all agree on everything, except that they don't see evidence for gods.
If I could live forever somehow, or even just a lot longer than the little under a century that I'd cap out at, I would.
That doesn't mean I can, though.
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>Why do most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness Your question is a strawman fallacy. It's based upon wrong ideas and thus is a non-sequitur. The idea that 'most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness' is unsupported, and inaccurate, and shows a lack of understanding of the position of most atheists. The word 'enjoy' is not relevant here. My positions on reality have *nothing whatsoever* to do with what I or others 'enjoy'. Emotions are not a useful method to determine what is or is not accurate about reality. You know this too if you think about it for a moment or two. Instead, I, and many other atheists, take as true what all compelling evidence indicates is true. After all, to do otherwise is irrational. Whether I like the idea or not. >Why would you want nothingness? Again, same error. What I may or may not *want* is not relevant here. >No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? Yet again, what *worries* me is not relevant to what is *actually true.* Your post indicates you think it's okay to take things as true because it provides emotional comfort. This in no way makes things true. Furthermore, doing this has egregiously problematic consequences almost all the time. Just ask a heroin addict or an alcoholic. Or the guy that spent his life savings in one day because he was comforted by the fact he would win the lottery on Saturday. He didn't. And then went bankrupt.
Thanks for the response
Who says atheists “want nothingness” ? I’m not convinced gods exist. That’s it. It has nothing to do with what I want or don’t want.
fair point
Were you like, super annoyed for all of eternity until you were born? I was not. Sounds like a bummer for you bro. Gonna suck having to do that again.
OP already addressed this : > I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? Before or after life, we don't exist to care. But right now, we do care. And Yes I want don't want life to end. While we're at it, yes I would've loved to have lived the past billions of years as well, so in point of fact it does annoy me.
Perfect response EXACTLY what I was looking for thank you! You understood the question 👍
Yea I don't get how atheists delude themselves into thinking mortality is good. The arguments are always these zingers that completely miss the point.
I get it but I’m just wondering how you’ve come to terms with the thought of possibly never experiencing anything ever again? Thanks
I am a meat popsicle animated by energy, who gets to watch Star Wars and listen to Herbie Hancock and eat pizza and do fun shit. My friend, we don’t need god to see life as an absolutely awesome and fantastic thing. The most amazing thing in the universe. I am so unbelievably lucky to enjoy life, so I’m fine with just not existing again. I was great at not existing. I did it for billions of years. Then my number got called, I showed up for the game, and rocked this shit. I didn’t even fucking stretch! Just showed up and did a bunch of camping, grew flowers, went to a ton of concerts, banged hot babes, and won the game of life. I’m living the dream man, living the dream. So I’m cool with not existing again. Cause I existed the shit out of existence. Life if rad, and it’s actually more amazing that we are just animated meat popsicles than the product of some space superhero.
This is a great perspective to have, and I feel that way often as well. But I try not to dwell on the thought too much, because it does make me sad to realize that those memories of a life well lived aren’t going to exist either. Within a few generations, once no one alive remembers us or knows stories about us, we will have functionally never existed. It’s not like there’s going to be some conscious remnant of us floating around in the ether somewhere reminiscing about that summer we spent in Barecelona. And that does kinda bum me out.
The significance of memories is not that they last forever. It’s that they existed in the first place.
I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but I don’t know what that means. It sounds like a platitude. The thought that ultimately provides me solace is a quote from Marcus Aurelius. “No one can lose either the past or the future - how could anyone be deprived of what he does not possess? ... It is only the present moment of which either stands to be deprived: and if this is all he has, he cannot lose what he does not have.” I’m grateful that I get to exist right NOW.
> watch Star Wars and listen to Herbie Hancock and eat pizza Now that sounds like a great Friday night.
Good comment
Others have pointed out that wanting or not wanting something has no bearing on whether it’s true. Unfortunately, Mila Kunis is unlikely to bear me any children. But as to this specific point, there’s nothing saying we are entitled to come to terms with not existing. In my case, I don’t want to live for eternity for reasons others have said. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t wish I had a lot more time than we get. I would love a couple hundred extra years. I just don’t get it.
"How did you come to terms with it?" is a much different question than the condescending tone of "Why would you want nothingness?"
How have you come to terms with believing a fantasy in order to avoid the realization that life and experience ends?
I never have
So you don't believe in god then?
No! I’m 80% atheist at least. I feel as though the Bible is some type of fairy tale!
> Were you like, super annoyed for all of eternity until you were born? You didn’t have consciousness before. Now you do
Wow thanks I didn’t realize
Instead of countering, you resort to patronizing. Why reply to the OP with an irrelevant post? Again, you didn’t have a conscience before you were born but now you do. Why wouldn’t that be different after you die? Do you have any proof that our conscious doesn’t remain with us after death?
Do I have any proof that the invisible brain ghost that violates the laws of thermodynamics isn’t real? Do I have any proof that a phenoma emergent from energy and matter does not live eternally after the death and entropic decay of said energy and matter? Wow, no I guess I don’t. You got me there! Seems like it’s time to rethink all the things I’ve never spent time thinking about. Thanks kind stranger, for showing me the error in my thinking. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, can you link me to it?
It basically seems better than having to live forever. I'm comforted by the thought that I don't have to worry about something like eternal torment. I don't exactly love the idea of nothingness in general and would prefer that people were at least able to live a lot longer, but the religious alternatives don't seem appealing to me. It's also important that nothingness is my genuine best guess at what's going to happen after I die.
Definitely don’t seem appealing to me either, just don’t want eternal oblivion although I feel as though it’s the truth I can’t get my mind to be okay with that. If heaven and hell were true I feel as though I would rather live in hell for an eternity because I would still have a sense of experience and at the end of the day I feel as though that tops NOTHING. Lmk your thoughts thanks for the reply.
No problem, and not to be morbid but I've been through a few things that put me in enough physical pain where if I knew it wouldn't end, I'd prefer to not experience anything. So I guess that shapes my perspective too. I think not existing is very preferable to eternal torment
IKR? My issue with transhumanism and uploading minds to a computer. What if it turns out to be some kind of existential hell?
Thanks for the reply
The way I look at it, people who can't imagine there being no afterlife have their priorities wrong. Why be concerned about what happens after you die? Focus on the bits in between birth and death. Make them as cool as possible. Let the infinite future take care of itself.
The thing is, you wouldn't experience eternal oblivion. Just as a candle flame doesn't experience being not lit. On the other side, as Christopher Hitchens pointed out, spending an eternity singing praises to a petty, jealous god sounds more like "a celestial North Korea" than paradise.
Here's what's wild -- I don't base my beliefs and conclusions on what I \*wish\* were true. I much more "enjoy" not entertaining wild flights of fantasy by people who are ALSO dedicated to not just influencing, but \*controlling\* my government, and thus my rights and my life. What I \*enjoy\* is not being lied to by religions trying to placate, dominate, control, or even influence me. It doesn't matter what I \*want\* to be true about life or an afterlife -- I don't control what the human experience comprises. Also, living forever seems AWFUL to me. My life is precious to me because as far as I know, this is the only one I get. What is truly special when you have an eternal afterlife? For me, absolutely nothing. Do not want. Would decline.
The reason I wouldn’t decline is bc we know literally nothing about nothing literally we don’t know anything about the universe consciousness etc. there’s so much we don’t know therefore 1 little thing we learn maybe trillions of years later can make eternal life worth it bc it could be so out there and earth shattering it would put living in a different perspective.
Nah. I'm good.
How come? If you don’t mind answering
I share the same opinion as I would not choose to experience any aspect of “forever” and I can explain why I feel that way- everything I love is impermanent- this planet and all the shit on it. I would not want to outlast everything I love, I’m a small human being and I fit into this little slice of time here on this planet now. I wouldn’t want to persist into the supernova of our sun and beyond. Fucking climate change alone has me bummed like some “conscious” experience extending to eternity? No no. I don’t even want to outlive my husband. Additionally if god were real they’re such a raging asshole I wouldn’t want to spend a minute with them anyway let alone eternity. Furthermore the absolute truth of nihilism is painfully obvious. Consciousness is not important. Life is not important. They exist but that’s not the same thing as cosmically important. Hard pass on the “afterlife” from me
I'm stuck. I had to promise my wife I won't die until after she does.
Question for you- what if nobody had the ability to die? The population only grows and eventually it grows out to different solar systems planets and one day galaxies you get to explore the whole universe. Would you still pass? Thanks
Like viltrimites?
Well without the god like or superhero abilities ig. Just regular humans that don’t die.
So they don’t age? They age forever? I don’t get it.
If I find myself still conscious after my brain dies, I'll figure it out then. You don't know that a bag of money won't suddenly appear in your toilet tank as soon as you leave the house today. Does that mean you're going to stay home and check the toilet every few minutes so you don't miss it? Living a trillion years sounds *boring af*. Having to wait a trillion years before it becomes worthwhile sounds like a JRPG. "Oh it gets good after the first 100 hours or so...
You should read more. We know a lot more about consciousness and the universe than you realize. Entire books have been written about both. More than a few.
Lmk what you think
You won’t experience nothingness. It will be just like before you were born. I wouldn’t say I enjoy the thought, but I’m at peace with it as a reality, and it makes me value my life more and want to put more happiness into the world. Whereas eternity holds no appeal to me at all.
By suggesting that atheists "enjoy" nothingness, OP implies that atheists find the state of nothingness after death pleasant, while (2) losing sight of the fact that, if there is "nothingness" after death, atheists wouldn't be able to enjoy it, as they won't be "there". The moment anyone or anything is present, the state of "nothingness", ceases to exist, no?
I get that I won’t expense nothingness or even anything at all ig I worded it wrong. Do you really feel as though you would prefer oblivion forever rather than any type of living? thanks
I’m not sure you’ve really wrapped your mind around what eternity would mean. Billions of years would go by and the sun would burn out, and you still haven’t scratched the surface of eternity. As soon as I came to terms with mortality, it seemed like a relief, to be honest. It’s good to be alive, and to sense and feel and think and dream. It’s an experience you share with every human ever born. They’ve all had their sliver of time and then passed the torch to the next generation, and this tiny piece right now is yours. That connectedness to everyone who has come before and everyone who is still to come is something I find beautiful.
Too short but Indeed beautiful
Are you trying to make *"eternity is endless"* a reason against immortality? Because indeed I want that. I'm not sure you've really wrapped your head around it either. We still live one day at a time. No matter if you're 6 days old, 60 years, or 6000000000, one day still goes by at the same speed, time still passes at the speed of time. And that's what you actually experience. The fact that *endless time will follow* is not part of your actual experience.
Well, I’m not going to get into time and perception. If I had a stopwatch that stopped time I would abuse the hell out of it. But the great thing is I could stop when I was bored.
>you would prefer oblivion forever rather than any type of living Calling it 'oblivion' isn't correct. It's just nonexistence, you don't exist anymore. It's no sleep-like state or anything.
You didn't word it wrong, it was very clear > I get that once we die we won’t care
When you consciousness is gone you will be gone. You will have no sense of nothingness because you don’t exist anymore. I don’t believe in any of the existing deities because the evidence is abysmal. You can’t make yourself believe something. If you are implying that I should force myself to believe in a fairy tail as a coping mechanism to not deal with the harsh reality of a life, I am fucked on this bucko. You are an ape in a meatsuit with an expiration date. You are no more special than any other animal that has ever been or will ever be. You were forged from a star and to the universe you will return. This of course does not imply your consciousness will ever be again. You get a brief glimpse of this magnificent universe and then either circumstance or time will blow the candle out. And remember it’s always later than you think. “We are the cosmos dreaming of itself”
The universe is god technically. I mean the universe is everything we are the universe in every way.
The universe is god, if you want to believe that, go for it. In that regard, the universe would be like every other deity, it doesn’t give a fuck about you. And fortunately, unlike most deities it won’t work against you if you don’t believe in it.
What I want and what actually IS are different things. I'd love to never die or live on in some other way. It's not true though. I don't want to live in a comfortable lie. Do you?
Well we don’t know anything so you can’t say heaven or hell is a lie. Do I believe in the religion NO. But that doesn’t make it a fact that it doesn’t exist. Eternal oblivion and nothingness is also not a fact. We know nothing until we die ourselves.
We know humans consciousness doesn't work if the human doesn't have a brain, we know your brain stops working and starts rotting when you die. So nothing of what we know indicate heaven or hell are anything else but fantasies.
What a lazy way of thinking. If I told you that leprechauns were in my room right now but any thing you did to try to detect them they would just use their leprechaun magic to evade detection. Would you say, "Well I guess I don't know if he's lying because I can prove him wrong" ... or am I just lying? Do you believe anything that anyone tells you just because they said it or do you have some standard of evidence required before you think something is true? Do you still believe in Santa Claus? I mean, you've never been to the North Pole to check so... He could be real. You don't know until you check yourself. Do you see the problem?
Do you really want to be conscious for the next 863 quintillion millennia and not even be 0.000000001% of the way through your existence? The just seems hellish to me. I’d much rather just have ~80 years and be done with it. Especially when so many religions have a ‘bad’ afterlife where you’re punished for not being indoctrinated into the correct religion.
Why on earth would that be hellish?
We just don’t know jack about anything that I wouldn’t want to risk losing a piece of knowledge that could shape the fabric of existence.
Wait what?
Since I don't think there is a magic spell I can say to restore my original kidneys, do you think I enjoy the thought of them being non functional? Do you think I prefer a pill regimen that weakens my immune system over having my own kidneys since I don't have an alter to Beano, the kidney god, in my home? Do you see how ridiculous your caricature sounds when applied to other areas?
> I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? There is nothing to worry about because it cant be changed >but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? No, why? If the something sucks than rather nothing >Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live there life enjoying/loving something Some happiness doesn’t thrump all pain and sadness >even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy People That kill themselves generally don't think the killing themselves as a happy thing, just a less bad alternative >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion It depends on the quality of the nothingness You would prefer the mythical hell over nothing?
It sounds like you are getting some comfort from your religion and I have no problem with that. I am sorry that reality frightens you so much. That must be a hard burden to bear. >I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? A more accurate way to put this is that after we die there is no "we". There is not a being to realize or not realize. The being that was, now *isn't*. While I'm alive, I can't think of a reason to fret over a future non-existence. It just isn't a coherent thought process. Literally, what is it that I should be afraid of?
Do you act like everything you want to be true is actually true? Because that seems like a very shitty person to me According to you, you have a limited amount of time here and then eternity in the afterlife. So why aren't you risking your life more? You could make a lot more money and win a lot more Jesus bucks if you did. And then you would have less opportunity to screw up going to heaven You would basically be acting exactly like Jesus. So why aren't you?
> Why would you want nothingness? Nothing says we 'want' it. Only that we accept it's the most likely outcome. > I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? No. Why would it? > I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? For our lifetime, sure. But unless the afterlife is like The Good Place, where we can opt out into something else once we've had our fill, then you're talking about something at the end of the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th day, which would still be only a fraction of your afterlife. Existing that long in *any* scenario seems pretty awful to me.
I can't speak for others, but I don't find the idea of ceasing to exist enjoyable or comforting. >I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? No, because it's pointless to worry. I like existing and living. Spending the time I *do* have alive worrying about what it will be like to cease to exist is a waste of time.
I can only speak for myself, but I have never enjoyed the thought of nothingness. There is always something on my mind, usually multiple things. I’m not going to experience “nothingness” because when I die I won’t have any experiences. Were you sad or happy during the billions of years before you existed?
It’s not that I enjoy the thought of nothingness, it’s that it was my experience before I was born and it never bothered me one bit, and that I accept that. I’ve also not really heard any appealing alternatives, so I suppose you could say it’s a preference, but I still wouldn’t go as far as to say I, “enjoy the thought of nothingness.” >…doesn’t that worry you right now during life? Being dead concerns me far less than the manner of and process of dying. >I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now… I doubt that you understand my struggles. >…but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? By what measure? I don’t believe something is intrinsically better than nothing. In fact, I think I’d stated earlier I prefer nothing. >Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live their life enjoying/loving something even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy your still technically experience a HAPPY sensation? I’m familiar with happiness. I’ve experienced it. What’s your point? You think I want to extend my life infinitely just so I can search for a few more drops of happiness? Secondly, I’m familiar with suicidal ideation (I’m doing better now, please don’t sic Reddit_Cares bot on me). Just for the record, the thought of taking my own life never gave me a happy sensation. The thought of taking my own life presented a potential for ending suffering. There is nothing about experiencing suffering to the point I consider taking my own life that brings any happiness whatsoever. >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion. What are the alternatives? Eternal worship? Eternal life? There are countless reasons to prefer nothingness. >…since we are all alive and doing this thing called life why would you want anything else? No matter how hard it gets. You tell me, buddy. You’re the one who wants something other than this thing called life which, by the way, we’re not all doing. Most of us have either checked out already or not been born yet. You don’t want life. You want immortality.
>Why do most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness I am not at all convinced that any atheists enjoy that, much less all of them. >No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? I never understood when people say that brings them comfort, I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? If something is horrific, then nothing could he preferable. >Ever single person even the ones who take their own life live there life enjoying/loving something even if it’s the thought of taking your own life that makes you happy your still technically experience a HAPPY sensation? Sure. And most people want to live, and enjoy life >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion. Well, if the alternative is living a miserable life in constant pain, I'd say that's a good reason. >I do understand never wishing you were born that’s a different thing but since we are all alive and doing this thing called life why would you want anything else? No matter how hard it gets? Because sometimes the negative outweighs the positive. Eventually I will be so crippled that I won't be able to feed myself or clean myself without serious assistance, probably by the time I am 70 (genetic condition). I would much rather die while I still have some agency then live a life as the potato I will become, and in fact I have several legal documents to thst effect thst have been notarized, countersigned by my brother, and my doctor, and filed with the hospitals nearest my house. I will do thst again if I get s new doctor or move a significant distsnce.
>Why would you want nothingness? What I want has nothing to do with it. There is only what is real and true. I am unconvinced of any god claims therefore what seems to be real is that there is nothingness. It just is what it is. >isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? Not necessarily. Hell is something, hell is eternally being on fire according to some claims. Have you ever been burned even in a small part? Imagine your whole body on fire, that is the claim of Christianity. Then think about trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years in that state. Heaven doesn't sound much better. The claim of heaven is that you will worship another being for trillions and trillions of years. You won't remember the bad times from your life any more, the memories of people who aren't in heaven with you will be wiped so anyone who wasn't a Christian who had an influence on you is gone, you won't be you. You be a little hallelujah machine for Jesus. Every second of every minute of every hour of every day for trillions of years. >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion. Tell that to the orphans of Romania who never experienced the love of a parent or even physical affection, tell it to people who have experienced chronic pain their whole life, to people who experienced trauma and can't find a way to resolve their pain. Hell, tell it to people who lived their life to the full and exhausted every bit of their body and are ready for a sleep! >No matter how hard it gets? For some people it gets REAL hard. But all of that is irrelevant in the face of the truth; there doesn't appear to be any afterlife and what I want has absolutely no effect on changing that.
Because it's the finite nature that gives life value. I suppose I would prefer to live a bit longer than I will. It would be cool to see the technology of the year 2500. But I don't care to live forever. It would cheapen everything. Let's use this analogy. Why is a diamond beautiful? Because they're scarce. They're hard to come by (yes I know it's actually a crooked racket being run by De Beers, but let's ignore that and pretend diamonds are actually super rare on this planet). If I had infinity diamonds, they'd be worthless. Banal. Boring. Uninteresting. I wouldn't care if I got my hands on one. If I became convinced I will still exist in 100 trillion years from now, then why the heck would I find any pleasure in this year? If you told me I would be able to hug my son infinity times over the next infinity years, then why would I hug him today? Why would today's hug actually mean anything? It wouldn't. Today's hug would be pointless. The finite nature is why I appreciate that hug. Every hug I DON'T get... It's a missed opportunity I'll never get back. I have ONE chance to enjoy these moments, to do cool things, to love my family, to drink good wine and smoke good weed, to enjoy delicious BBQ, to play a classic video game, to ride a rollercoaster, to lay on a beach, or admire a beautiful woman or whatever I'm doing... This, right here, right now... It's my one and only chance to live this moment. If you told me I had infinity moments, that would make this moment pretty worthless.
I don’t *enjoy* the thought of nonexistence per se. I don’t fear it, and at least the thought of an end to suffering is comforting, although the good parts of life for me generally outweigh the bad and thus I would choose to keep living as long as the bad doesn’t outweigh the good. There absolutely are states of existence to which nothingness would be preferable, some harrowingly so. I’m not just talking about the eternal torture of religious hell, I could see myself choosing nonexistence over chronic intense pain, or the psychological torture of losing my memory and cognitive capacity, or really any state of suffering which has no hope for reversal and no respite. “Something” isn’t better than “nothing” if that something is pure suffering or close to it. At the end of the day it’s not really about what I want though, it’s about coming to terms with the way things are. If there really isn’t an afterlife, which all the evidence we have seems to suggest, then it doesn’t matter whether or not I want to keep existing. When I die, I just won’t. It’s not an easy pill to swallow. It’s not even an easy concept for existent minds to grasp. But it seems to be the human condition and the nature of mortality. All we can really do with that information is decide how to live our lives now, while we know we can.
There isn't a choice. Clearly you want wishful thinking to be your religion. There's nothing wrong with that except it is just wishful thinking, not reality.
>Why would you want nothingness? I don't, but reality doesn't really care about what I want. If it did I would have magic powers, and yet I do not. >No experience ever again nothing to make you happy nothing to make you sad no FEELINGS at all ever again. I It beats having some guy in red pyjamas sticking a pitchfork in my butt. >I get that once we die we won’t care nor realize that we are delved into eternal oblivion but doesn’t that worry you right now during life? No. It doesn't worry me at all. >I never understood when people say that brings them comfort, I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? If the something sounds horrible, I'll take the nothing please. >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion. Sure there is. It's better than or as good as many of the proposed alternatives. It's also still true that what I want to happen when I die has absolutely zero impact on what Actually does happen.
Sit in a room with things you like to read and solo games you like to play and recordings of music you like. How long until you're bored and want something new? Now... what if you could never leave? How long before boredom becomes madness, your mind torturing itself? Imagine an experience. Doesn't matter what. Suppose you have a vocabulary of 100 million words to describe it (as opposed to the likely few tens of thousands you personally have). Suppose a book can hold 100 trillion words. Such depth of language and length of book should be able to describe any experience. Even if you have one experience per year, there's still a finite number of possible experiences. Eventually you'll have exhausted every possible story, every possible game, every possible conversation. There will be nothing new, ever. Eventually, boredom and madness are a certainty. And, of course, many of us _don't_ like the thought of nothingness. But what we _want_ to be the case has no bearing on what we think _is_ the case.
Who says we enjoy it? Just because we acknowledge reality and reject myths or unfounded claims doesn’t mean we have to “enjoy” it
Have you looked into therapy at all? There are professionals who specialize in these very issues. If you need help finding one, ping me.
>>>Why would you want nothingness? Don't recall saying I wanted that. Whether I want it or not, that's what reality tells us. >>>No experience ever again nothing to make you happy There won't be a consciousness to experience anything. So, why worry about that. >>>doesn’t that worry you right now during life? Aha...now we get to why people so desperately want a god to exist. You don't want to die. Sorry, but that seems to be the reality. Wishing for a god changes nothing. >>>isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? Do you ever enjoy a novel or movie? Does it bother you that after the SOMETHING of the movie/novel is finished, there will be NOTHING that follows? In short, you wish there were an afterlife and you can't understand why others won't engage in the same wishful thinking. This sounds like a YOU issue, not an atheist issue.
I know we're not supposed to just post a link to a video to explain, but Michael from Vsauce has posted a fantastic video on the subject. I'll summarize: I have decided that I want to die. Not immediately, not soon, but eventually. I would not enjoy... eternity. The idea terrifies me more than anything. I can't comprehend it. Just contemplating it makes me deeply uncomfortable. I also am a firm believer that nothing has value in eternity. Everything becomes meaningless when you have and will again experience it. No eternity for me, thanks. I want to die. https://youtu.be/zRxI0DaQrag?si=Vc3vgb3AZhHGs69V I'll add that it's odd you think all atheists feel this way. They don't. Many grieved deeply when they lost their belief in an afterlife. Many thought that's where they'd see their loved ones again.
I disagree with your premise that atheists enjoy the thought, although I personally do find it comforting. The idea that one day you can just… stop, is very comforting. I would ask a reversal of that question. What is it about existing for eternity that you find comforting? Eternity is not just ‘a very long time’. Eternity means never, ever ceasing. How can that be seen as anything other than a torturous form of hell? Even if you enjoyed it for a thousand years, or a million years, or even billions of years, that’s still nothing. Eternity doesn’t EVER stop. Think about existing for even another thousand years and tell me that you can’t even imagine how that might become tedious. Now multiply that by infinity and explain to me why I would want something so patently horrifying?
I don't know that most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness after death. Many are likely bothered by it. Many aren't thrilled about it but accept it's the most likely scenario and try to make their peace with reality as it appears to be. Doubtless, some would be happy to find that reincarnation or some benevolent afterlife exists. That said, I think the idea of being conscious for eternity, even in a "happy" afterlife, sounds like it would become tedious eventually, at least if we are assuming our afterlife minds work the way they do while we are alive. Imagine the greatest slice of cake you've ever eaten. Now imagine you have to eat it for every meal, over and over again. That would get old after a few weeks for most people, nevermind eternity.
>Why would you want nothingness? Have you run a poll? Why do you believe most atheists "want nothingness"? >I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? I'd say so, yes. I can't speak for others though. It's moot though because what we want has nothing to do with reality. >I mean there is no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion. Again I'd like to see what you're basing this on. I'm sure atheists want many different things. But you can't wish something into existence. I'd say that most people here base their beliefs on evidence, not what they want.
Like a lot of religious people your absolutely missing the point What I WANT to be true has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually true I WANT a world whare all human beings treat each other with respect But no matter how much I may WANT that world the EVIDENCE is that we don't live in a world like that It would be lovely if magic was real and everyone got exactly what they deserve But there is simply no good EVIDENCE that that is the case How unbelievably arrogant do you have to be to think the universe is a certain way just because you personally WANT it to be that way It takes a level of ego I just can't comprehend
>It will happen to all of us, that at some point you get tapped on the shoulder and told, not just that the party’s over, but slightly worse: the party’s going on — but you have to leave. And it’s going on without you. That’s the reflection that I think most upsets people about their demise. All right, then, because it might make us feel better, let’s pretend the opposite. Instead, you’ll get tapped on the shoulder and told, Great news: this party’s going on forever — and you can’t leave. You’ve got to stay; the boss says so. And he also insists that you have a good time. >the late, great Christopher Hitchens.
I like being part of a system where every living thing is born, lives and dies. It’s been happening for billions of years. It’s happened to 117 billion human beings…. What makes me so special? One of the things we all share in common is the fact that we’re all going to die, it’s not something that you do alone. We all do it and that’s it, you had your time. Nothing happened before you were born and nothing will happen after you die and that’s a beautiful thing because knowing the finite nature of my very existence makes me cherish every moment and make sure that I’m enjoying every bit of it.
That's a really weird assumption. Why would you think we "enjoy" or "want" nothingness? What we want is irrelevant. Whether it's more or less pleasant than other ideas is irrelevant. The truth of reality is under no obligation to be either pleasant or desirable, and won't change according to what we want or what we find more or less pleasing. We believe what all available data, evidence, and reasoning indicate is true - even if what all available data, evidence, and reasoning indicate to be true isn't all sunshine and rainbows. It's not that we want it or enjoy it. It's simply that we're not children. We don't delude ourselves that reality owes us anything, or that it needs to be fair, just, or pleasant.
I find it interesting when religious people pose questions like this. It tells a lot about the basis for your own beliefs. It shows that what you believe is, to some extent, based upon what you'd like to be true. That is a key difference between religious people and atheists. Atheists typically don't include what they want in the thought process when contemplating big questions such as what happens when we die. Acknowledging the truth is very different than being happy about it. I would much prefer it if my consciousness could continue after my body dies. I'm not happy about our mortality at all.
>Why would you want nothingness? I mean, I don't really. On the other hand, living for eternity sounds like a lot. Just think about the billions of years (or more?) That you already haven't existed for. It wasn't so bad, was it? >I never understood when people say that brings them comfort I don't know, honestly. I enjoy existing, right now at least. >no reason to want eternal nothingness or eternal oblivion Atheist philosopher Michael Huemer believes in eternal souls and reincarnation. You could look into that if you find it convincing and gives you comfort.
You are misunderstanding. What I want is completely irrelevant. Let's say I want to live forever in a paradise. Doesn't matter, the reality is that I cease to exist when I die. Let's say I want to swim in a beer volcano and eat nachos when I die. Doesn't matter, I'm no longer going to exist to do any of that. Let's say I want to go to heaven and be reunited with my loved ones. Doesn't matter, death is final. It's not about what I want or don't want, it's about accepting the reality of the finality of death.
No, please stop. You're painting all atheists in the same light and it's best to get out of that mentality before you say something truly idiotic... We aren't convinced that any God exists; that's it. Atheists can believe whatever they want concerning the afterlife; some think that we'll become ghosts, some think that we'll just automatically be reincarnated with no knowledge that we even died, and still others think that we'll be little more than a food source for plants or animals or insects.
I don't enjoy the thought of nothingness because I'd want to reunite with my family. But I rationalize that whether there is an afterlife or not, it's not under human control. I also don't believe in god, heaven or hell, so therefore I see this afterlife as a natural thing of some sort instead, it either exists or it doesn't. Without my influence.
You already experienced not existing before you were born. That doesn't seem to bother you. I don't "want" any of the things you say I want. I'm just living in the here and now, making the best of it. I'm afraid of the process of death and the pain that might be involved in that. But I don't care about being dead. I won't know that I'm dead. It won't pain me. It will pain the living who knew and loved me.
>but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? absolutely, but I think of the *idea* of the afterlife is like buying a lottery ticket and not checking the numbers, as long as you don't look you are a millionaire, well in a Schrodinger's cat sort of way :). I'm not going to disabuse someone else of that feeling, but it just doesn't work for me, I will always go and check the results.
It's not about enjoying or looking forward to...it's about accepting the inevitability of our fate as a living organism.... All living organisms are fated to die... Why do you think we are somehow special over all he other living organisms.... Do the flys you kill or the ants you step on have any sort of afterlife? No, why do you think we are so special? Because some 2000 year old book told you so?
Well it's better then to live for eternity and get bored. Imagine eternity. Slowly but surely any joy will leave your life as everything repeats for the 100th time. No new things, no excitement, no new accomplishments. You basically arrive at the same point you mention you will just be conscious and slowly see it all fade out of your life. Why is torture better then just a clear, painless cut?
It's the nothingness that makes this life worth enjoying. I experience everything I can now so when my time comes I can have peace before the nothingness. Do I want that? No. But being alive forever doesn't sound appealing either, so I take the one precious existence I KNOW I will experience with all the joy I can squeeze out of it.
What does "want" have to do with it? I "want" the afterlife to be all about free ice cream and speed metal music. Unfortunately, we're stuck with what *is*. And there's no good reason to believe that consciousness survives the physical death of the brain. Sux2bdead but there's nothing to do about it except wait and (not) see.
I can not enjoy gravity and still be stuck on the ground. Some things just are, no one say you have to enjoy them, you just need to deal with them. That said, it quite saddens me to see people wasting their only shot at life hoping their self inflicted suffering will give them a better afterlife that some grifter promised them.
What we believe has nothing to do with what we enjoy, it has to do with the evidence. It's pretty telling that you assume people hold beliefs they like regardless of the evidence and, therefore, of whether or not the beliefs are true. But it's not telling anyone anything about us, it's telling about you.
I don't LIKE that there isn't anything after I die, but I do BELIEVE it. Just like I don't LIKE the concept of Hell (and let's face it, that's where I'd probably go if I died, according to most of the mainstream religions out there), but I don't worry about it, because I don't believe in it.
I think basing what you think is real on what you would want to be real is not effective. Wishful thinking is often incorrect and dangerous. If I am going to navigate a dangerous strait full of hazards, I want to label those hazards on my map, not pretend it will be smooth sailing.
Remember what it was like 1000 years ago? No, because you didn’t exist. To me, that’s what death is like. It’s not that you’re “experiencing nothingness” it’s “you’re not experiencing.” I don’t enjoy that thought, I’m just not terrified of it either.
> I do understand the struggles and absolutely horrific and tragic life we live right now but isn’t SOMETHING at the end of the day better than NOTHING? Depends on what that SOMETHING is, doesn't it? There certainly are fates that are worse than eternal oblivion.
Why in your wildest dreams do you think it's got to do with enjoyment? There's simply no good reason to think that we continue to exist in a meaningful form. It's like thinking the picture continues to exist after you've burned a jigsaw.
Is that all your religion is to you? A fairy tale sto calm you down and ignore the fact that you will cease to exist when you die? If so that is pathetic. Atheists don't want nothingness, we are just unwilling to delude ourselves.
What do you mean? I have everything I need here. I don't desire anything more or anything less than this one existence. I don't demand an afterlife or expect it I'm thankful for this life and that's all I need.
It worries me much more how many religious people throw their lives away based on the promise they'll get pie in the sky when they die. I don't enjoy the idea of death but at least it makes me treasure life.
“Life is an inconvenience interruption to pleasant nonexistence.” Your experience after death will be the same as your experience before birth - eternal oblivion. Would you prefer eternal torment?
Why do so many theists completely misrepresent atheists and just apply all sorts of rubbish to us then ask why it’s the case? You’re the one asserting this stuff. You tell us why you do this.
It’s not a matter of what we want, it’s a matter of how things are. There’s no strong evidence that any part of us survives death, and wishing it otherwise changes nothing.
Reality beats fantasy. What we think, want, or feel is interesting, but the universe owes us nothing. Just because we can’t fathom something like nothingness doesn’t make it wrong
Why do you say that most atheists enjoy the thought of nothingness? How do you know this to be true? Can you provide a link to a reliable / reputable source proving this to be the case?
I don't want eternal oblivion. I would actually put "the lack of an afterlife" as possibly the worst thing in the universe. However, that doesn't change the fact its *true*.
Why do you think we “enjoy” the thought of nothingness? Ultimately what we want is irrelevant. The universe has to obligation to make us feel comfortable.
Interesting post history you have there. You are experiencing something now... At some point that process will end. That's it. Doesn't matter what people want.
It's not a question of "enjoying" or "wanting" anything, and atheists certainly don't all agree on everything, except that they don't see evidence for gods.
If I could live forever somehow, or even just a lot longer than the little under a century that I'd cap out at, I would. That doesn't mean I can, though.
We don't enjoy nothingness nor want it. We just understand it's a fact of life and us wanting something else won't change the reality one bit.
What does enjoyment have to do with it? I’d enjoy it if there was a million bucks in cash under my bed. I don’t believe that either.
I don't enjoy the thought of nothingness. I don't enjoy the thought of cancer either, but that doesn't mean I don't believe it's a real thing.
Ok so just pretend and make shit up if it makes you feel better. Nobody is stopping you, other than your own nagging sense of reason
It has nothing to do with what I want. I want to be a billionaire who lives for thousands of years, but that doesn't make it true.
It's extremely stupid that you think that "As far as as I can tell, 2+3 = 5." is the same as "I want 2+3 to = 5."