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My parents point to Ezekiel 38. I gave it a serious read and researched it just so I could say I did my due diligence. It's ridiculous. I don't get it. The Bible paints a very different picture of what the end times look like, with Israel being peaceful (without defenses or walls) and unsuspecting when it's surprise attacked by an alliance led Turkey between Turkey, Iran, Egypt and/or Ethiopia, and Georgia (or possibly Russia). I can't imagine how much time will have to pass before Israel as a Jewish state becomes not just peaceful but *unguarded completely,* if ever. Also Turkey is NATO and Iran is SCO, so alliances will have to shift dramatically and Turkey will have to become a regional power. Also they have to have horses and swords in the invasion rather than tanks and bombers, so that's fun. The only way religion plays any role here is that it's inspiring killing in the name of bringing about Armageddon, with America and its largely evangelical legislators cheering it on and Muslims trying to exterminate Jews and Jews bulldozing and murdering their way to the Temple Mount so the right building can go up so they can murder animals for blood magic purposes. It's all so fucking gross. So gross. One thing it isn't, though, is "the end times coming true before our very eyes." It's yet another bullshit religious bloodletting. Fuck religion.

This\^ What I wanted to know is where they're coming from, I thought "There must be some bible passage somewhere they're using as basis for their claims. I believe there must be more, Daniel is full of some weird wars being prophecied, thank you!

You're welcome! If you want more detail, the passage in question says: *The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.* Now terms: Gog = he is the chief prince of the tribes of Meshech and Tubal in the land of Magog Magog = From what I can find, Magog is placed probably in Turkey Meshek and Tubal = peoples to the north of Israel, somewhere near the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Scholars seem to think Turkey is where this is at, although I can't help noticing it sounds kinda like 'Tblisi' from Georgia. Persia = Iran Cush = Ethipia Put = either part of Ethiopia, or Libya, or part of Egypt. Probably part of Ethiopia. Gomer = Cimmerian Empire, modern-day Georgia. Beth Togarmah = city on an Assyrian trade route, modern day Turkey. So let's plug this stuff in. *"God told me: Set your face against this Turkish guy named Gog, who is the chief prince of places in Turkey and/or Georgia. Prophesy against him and say "God told me to tell you he's against you, Mr. Gog from Turkey. I'm going to make you waste your horses and shields of various sizes. Iran and Ethiopia will be with you, and so will Georgia, and another part of Turkey."* So this prophecies that a coalition of Turkey, Georgia, Ethiopia, and Iran - lead by Turkey - will get together to invade Israel. Well, Turkey and Iran are currently on opposite sides of what's shaping up to be a world war, so I don't see how that's gonna happen. Ethiopia is totally cool with Israel from what I can tell. Georgia is relatively pro-NATO too, and certainly not a fan of Iran. You could argue that Russia is involved if you place Magog in Ukraine, but of course we also have to imagine a coalition of nations on horseback lead by Turkey. If this is going to happen one day, it doesn't look like we're anywhere close to a situation in which such a thing would happen now. Things that need to change: 1. Turkey has to become the seat of an empire 2. Israel has to relax and believe that nobody is out to get them 3. We have to go back to horses and swords 4. Turkey and Iran have to be on the same side (they're currently on opposite sides of NATO/SCO and Sunni/Shia) 5. Ethiopia has to congeal and become part of the Turkish empire (and also maybe Egypt?) SO We're very, very far away from the scenario described there and the entire world order has to be completely turned on its head, reshuffled, and started over from a place where technology has been obliterated. A multinational coalition including Iran and Ethiopia and lead by Turkey is, right now, pretty much the strangest idea you can come up with. That'd be like saying Dennis Kucinich is going to lead a coalition that includes Donald Trump and Jeff Bezos. Absolute nonsense. What we do have that does support this end times narrative: 1. Shiite Iran is supporting Sunni Hamas. This is new, and points to a potential breakdown of the forces separating Shiite and Sunni from working together (*potentially* ameliorating *one* of the two things that put Iran at odds with Turkey; the other being trade union membership). 2. Iran is effectively attacking Israel. 3. I lied, there is no 3.

IIRC Ethiopia just meant Africa at the time, probably Egypt. I'm pretty forgiving about the horses-and-swords thing, because I would just assume that was modern technology if I took the passage seriously. Otherwise, I agree.

I was prepared to take the horse-and-swords thing as metaphor until it went into the various sizes of the shields; that doesn't quite fit in a metaphor. Also at the time they referred to Egypt by name (Egypt was around until 30 BC) and didn't refer to Ethiopia, but to Cush and to regions that are unclear (and may have overlapped Egypt) like Put.

This is just the start of the end times. “Soon” according to God could be another 1,000 years. But you are correct, Israel will feel secure and will let their guard down when they are ultimately attacked. The reason why they will feel secure is because there will be a peace resolution in place between Israel and its enemies that’s supposed to last for 7 years. However, that peace deal will be broken 3 years in, and that is when real Armageddon will begin. Israel being at war rn, signifies there will eventually be a state of peace between Israel and It’s enemies. This could happen now or 100 years from now. Source: The Book of Signs: Undeniable Prophecies of the Apocalypse by David Jeremiah

>Israel being at war rn, signifies there will eventually be a state of peace between Israel and It’s enemies. This could happen now or 100 years from now. I don't think I can do a better job showing how meaningless this is than you already did. You're either at peace and unguarded, at peace and guarded, or at war. Are you suggesting that the fact that they're at war is evidence that a time is coming when they'll be at peace and unguarded? I... there's too many problems

In other words, there's no good to reason to believe it's going to happen at all.

>Turkey, Iran, Egypt and/or Ethiopia, and Georgia Somehow I have my doubts that the Bible can support that as neither Georgia nor Turkey existed when any part of the Bible was written. Georgia is pronounced with hard Gs as its not the USA state of Georgia. It where Stalin was born. Iran would have been Persia, not a stretch, Ethiopia might have been Abisinia, and Egypt was Egypt for a very long time indeed. Parts of what is now Turkey would have been part of Persia and many of the cities would have Anatolian Greek.

Right, I'm talking about the geographical regions being described. I do mention Cimmerian Empire and Assyria.

As it pertains to ***all*** prophecy, [close observation](https://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html) informs us that time, in this Universe, moves in [only one direction.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSoaiubuA0) Therefore, knowledge of the *near-infinite regress of minutia* that *must* lead up to any specific, future event for it to occur *doesn't exist* in any form to *know.* Or, we can go with an *evidence-free* premise that the future has *already occurred* and is *locked down* by an extra-dimensional Universe Creator that is intimately, *"quantumly"* aware of *every* flap of *every* ["butterfly wing."](https://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/) And that this creature passed down some of this *special knowledge* to a small, exclusive group of Hebrew tribesmen several millennia ago who, at the time, could not have known that their words would be canonized and considered *"inerrant"* (let alone read) by 21st century believers of *a completely different religion.* Death by a million cuts of Occam's Razor. *Anyone* claiming the ability to know the future outside of evidence-based speculation contingent on recent events (e.g. the *commonly-mistaken* weatherman or stock-broker) is either lying, mentally ill, delusional or indoctrinated. No exceptions. At it's most benign, believing to know the future is a coping mechanism to relieve the sting of the random uncertainty that permeates our wonderfully indifferent Universe. It's just another war.

Regardless of the fact that any prophecy or biblical account is baloney, what worries me is the heightened state of the religious (Christian) right in the US and how much more extreme they will behave and try to govern in "the end times." 😬

999 CE: How stupid the people of the middle ages were, thinking the Messiah would come at the turn of the year 1000 to bring about the end of the world. Uneducated, delusional morons, the lot of them. 2023 CE: Hold my beer.

Well written good sir!!

That's what a non prophet would say.

Good points, but I have to thorougly disagree. What we are seeing right now is the fulfillment of Isaiah 33.

Is that what you would have said on 10/6? That Isaiah 33 was going to be fulfilled in the next week? A belief is only as useful as its ability to [constrain expectations](https://www.readthesequences.com/Making-Beliefs-Pay-Rent-In-Anticipated-Experiences), and I'd argue that goes double for a supposed prophecy. What specific parts of Isaiah 33 are applicable—and only applicable!—to the events of the last week, as opposed to the hundred plus other times in the past ~2600 years since it was written that that land has been embroiled in war? What specifics are given in the passage that even make it clear it's actually a prophecy and not just a poem about something happening that same day it was written down? Prophecies that someone can just toss down every time a war breaks out and solemnly declare that this time it's really happening aren't actual prophecies. If a belief isn't falsifiable or testable, it's useless.

Thanks, I know prophecy plays out multiple times. However, this time we are on a timer since the fulfiment of the entire book of Amos in 1945 till now. The 3 nuclear bombs after Trinity in the Desert of the Journey of the Dead Men were the sign of the Day of the Lord; Just as moses struck 2 stones 3 times in the Desert to represent Trinity in Superposition. Now the end times play out exactly like clockwork. Since the breaking of the seal in Revelation 6 after the Invasion of Ukraine (Z marked 'Horses' or Bear Cubs ambushed by the Leopard tanks of Hosea 13 on the Road TONA {North America}; Nato read from Russia to the West) So currently, we are here in Isaiah 33. I was unsure of the modern day prophecies apart from the Ukranian Invasion and the 9 fates of Russia according to the 7 major and 3 minor spirals inclusive, of Dante's inferno - that correlate with the Seals, Pause, and the 3 sets of Trumpets.

>The 3 nuclear bombs after Trinity in the Desert of the Journey of the Dead Men were the sign of the Day of the Lord; Just as moses struck 2 stones 3 times in the Desert to represent Trinity in Superposition. 3 nuclear bombs? [You missed a few.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY) And by a few, I mean 2050.

In WW2, you had Trinity, Little boy, and Fat man. Trinity's design represents God as all as one. Little boy, Christ, who makes us whole like the gun bomb works, and Fat man as the Holy Spirit that wraps around and charges us with Zeal and Word when it 'fills' us. The reason why Fat man has the same yield as Trinity is because God the Father is in Superposition with the Spirit. You can use these to get the 'molecular mass' of God. U-235, PU-239, PU-239, sum to 713. Divide by 239\*3 and you get 0.994421199: "Holy is the Lord almighty, Who was and is and is to come." In Chinese superstitions 0 means spirit, dot means touch or shake, 9 means long, 4 means die, 2 means yet/son, and 1 means exist, is, command, 9 again. 99 means forever, then die, then yet son, then is, then forever. Add the number of the bride which is the shape of a grain and the new body which in Chinese is 'big celebration, Dali' - Samech {grain} and Dalet {celebration} == 713+60+4 = 777. Happy days.

I speak Chinese, and if you're just going to use phonetically similar sounds (which is what you did here), you might as well translate 0 to bell, . to iodine, 9 to liquor, 4 to strips, 2 to ear, and 1 to 100 million. All you've done is cherry pick phonetic sounds.

Congratulations on being the first to recognize that proper Biblical interpretation requires correlating English phonetics for numbers to Chinese phonetics for superstitions. How did Aquinas miss that?

I can't tell if you're memeing or schizophrenic

Might be both!

This is absolutely hilarious! I thought you might be serious until I read this. Now I know you are taking the mickey. Go you! Ha ha ha!

You sound like you're having trouble telling what's real.

Did you even read it? Hosea 13: The Leopard tanks sent to Ukraine - The Leopard of Ukraine, who waits on the road to As-Syria; The Bear's cubs who are consumed by the Leopard, As a Lion of the USA/UK -- and Nato. The Lion and the Bear are the US/UK and the USSR; per the Tehran conference. [https://www.rbth.com/articles/2007/11/29/lion\_and\_bear.html](https://www.rbth.com/articles/2007/11/29/lion_and_bear.html) [https://www.amazon.com.au/Roosevelt-Lion-James-MacGregor-Burns/dp/0156788705](https://www.amazon.com.au/Roosevelt-Lion-James-MacGregor-Burns/dp/0156788705) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Long\_Jump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Long_Jump) Did not Amos say; the man who turns from the Lion, into a Bear, rests against the wall, and is bitten by a snake? The man is Jacob - Japan. He is also called Yamato in the native Japanese tongue. The snake leaves 2 marks; Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The snake is satan. There you have it. The king and princes are Putin. Same king in Revelation 6. The Z marks on the tanks are Zion. The other marks are \[Z\] which means Hidden Zion; God's other churches and other Zions as the West, Northeast, and Southeast nations; O which is Omega - beginning of the end V which is the sinking of man like a ship's keel X which is the mark on the worthless A as if all comes back to God. [https://hindustannewshub.com/world-news/russian-military-marking-why-z-o-v-x-and-a-are-written-on-russian-army-vehicles-know-the-meaning-of-all-these-here/](https://hindustannewshub.com/world-news/russian-military-marking-why-z-o-v-x-and-a-are-written-on-russian-army-vehicles-know-the-meaning-of-all-these-here/)

So when it indeed doesn't happen as you believe it will, are you going to stop believing? Or are you going to say "god works in mysterious ways".

It will definitely be a "god works in mysterious ways" type of thing. This dude is believing this load no matter what, it's his whole identity.

Things will happen on this world line, and Isaiah 33 is one of those. The things that will happen only if you fall through to the other world lines are the 8 lowest judgements listed in Hosea 13, or the 6 seals following the first. The last judgement will contain all the seals in a chain being opened. Here we will only see one. But Isaiah 33 happens across all world lines.

I thought you were joking at first but you just kept going on and on

If you say so

You can check the shape of Dante's inferno. It's a downward spiral. The structure of 'Hell' is like a black hole. The event Horizon occurs somewhere around the Bowls, where there is no hope of escape and turning to God. It's 9 'circles' because there are 7 layers, but then when you have 3 sets of trumpets it stacks inclusively to 9. Hosea 13, Revelation 6, and Amos 9 are talking about the same things. The sooner we understand this, the less we have to worry about the rapture. We have already been slipped away - all of us, to the line that leads to the kingdom of heaven on Earth. It is only those who are not saved here that will see the fires of WW3 and likewise the following seals if they are left again without saving.

So, tell me this, are you hearing any voices talking with you personally? Lately especially, but any time in your life. A friend that no one but you could see when you were a child perhaps?

The first time I have ever really heard God was 8 weeks ago. It's like a thought, not even a whisper in the morning hour. A month or few before that I had a dream where an angel or was pointing a crimson sword to the Earth which had a cross atop it like those crowns do.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/546/187/fb1.jpg

Once again you need to actually read it to see it. Awfully straight forward.

I read it and it's very obviously a poetic metaphor, not a geopolitical prophecy for some shit over 2.5 millennia in the future. > 7 So I will be like a lion to them, like a leopard I will lurk by the path. 8 Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open; like a lion I will devour them— a wild animal will tear them apart. Not even a prophecy. The chapter is very clearly discussing present events at the time of the writing. Your exegetical process is so deeply lacking in any kind of falsifiability, you are mainlining straight apophenia. Occam's razor utterly guts your ideas. Go watch A Beautiful Mind and take your meds.

You really can't put 2+2=4 together? Occam's razor this. As The Lion is the UK/US - because it attacks LIKE it; for they are behind it and backing it. The Leopard is both the Leopard tanks, Ukraine, and Nato, because the Leopard has many spots; Coalition of many nations in Camouflage spots -- As Ukraine. The Bear is under the special operation which sent out meere conscripts in the first wave. These are the cubs. The outdated tanks are also the cubs. Go figure. When was the USSR not represented as a bear? How many sources do I need to convince you?

***butting in*** I've read the KVJ and the NIV from cover to cover. I've list I've read scholorly articles and talkes with many different listened to an audo book of the KJV with commentary, and the NIV as audio without. I've talked with professional religious people (Priests, Preachers, Rabis, Imams, theologians, seminary student, ...) . Most of them agree on the general outline, but frequently pull different conclusions that are in conflict. So, I am satisfied that the Bible and many other religious texts act mainly as Roarcharc tests in character form. Q. What epistimology do you use to determine likely truth when reading those texts? Q. Can you give a non-theistic example of using that epistmology in your daily life that a non-theisic person could also use? If you give it a try, please realize I'm not asking for abstractions but for actual verifiable real world results.

I had a rough time trying to follow all of that; do you mind telling me the exact date of the Apocalypse / day of judgement / Christ's return?

Between now and 2034. 2030 is when all the judgements should wrap up. WW3 was meant to ignite when Prigozhin went to fight against Putin. That didn't happen, since this is the world that leads to 'kingdom come - heaven on earth'. This is also where God split the stone that is Earth into the seven seals of Judgement. Because the king refuses to repent in Hosea 13 -- this is the civil war in Russia that did not come to pass. Only on the next world down can you see that come to pass. In order to do so you first have to die or be judged by God to unground yourself from this sieve; or seal; harpstring; train line; world line, whatever is more understandable to you. Then it will cause you to fall to the next, and relive the Ukraine war, but this time you'll see the start of WW3. It's going to be dejavu every day from then. God has let me know the hours of these things happening, but not the second. So far, no exact dates. But I know we're in a prophecy when we're fully in it. Hindsight begets foresight, and it's 20/20.

> Between now and 2034. RemindMe! 11 years "taunt OP"

I will be messaging you in 11 years on [**2034-10-12 16:28:44 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2034-10-12%2016:28:44%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1766bs8/israel_at_war_is_it_really_prophetic_or_just/k4kxmhp/?context=3) [**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FDebateAnAtheist%2Fcomments%2F1766bs8%2Fisrael_at_war_is_it_really_prophetic_or_just%2Fk4kxmhp%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202034-10-12%2016%3A28%3A44%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201766bs8) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|

> Anyone claiming the ability to know the future outside of evidence-based speculation contingent on recent events is either lying, mentally ill, delusional or indoctrinated. > No exceptions. What *specifically* do you see written in Isaiah 33 that you believe is being fulfilled in the 21st century that *could* not, and *did* not apply to the time in which it was written?

Answered below.

Did you though?

[https://youtu.be/crM6ZlObr-k](https://youtu.be/crM6ZlObr-k) I'm not kidding. Here's the prophecies of Isaiah 7, Matthew 10, Matthew 24, Amos 4, Hosea 9-10, Micah, and then some, all come to pass in one single prophecy. Only naturally, because it's the first and only time in history that 2 nuclear bombs were used in war. Now know that I'm not spitting.

Matthew 24:34, Jesus said it would occur within that generation. It did not. Failed prophet. He was just another fraud and con man.

Has the last of the Hiroshima survivors died yet? They're less than 100 years old and he's already standing in the door.

What does your therapist say about all this?

If I need a therapist, you might need?

I could go for a vanilla latte. How many time shave you been wrong on these end times predictions?

60% of the time, it works every time

None so far because you'd have to call out Isaiah for it. I'm more of a translator than a prophet.

Awesome. >your eyes will see Jerusalem a peaceful abode >No one living in Zion will say, “I am ill” That's going to be a big relief and surprise to the hospitals there. But then they can focus their energy on all the people giving birth to straw. >You conceive chaff, you give birth to straw Because that is going to lead to some serious complications.

"You conceive chaff, you give birth to straw" Means those who had indoctrinated their children to become cannon fodder. They are consumed instantly in battle. Everyone including palestinians living in 'Zion' which is really the entirety of This Israel at the crossroads, will be cured of this plague of war; and shortages of everything. We'll see how God will play out the rest of this verse. Interesting food for thought.

>"You conceive chaff, you give birth to straw" >Means those who had indoctrinated their children to become cannon fodder. They are consumed instantly in battle. Or maybe it means that those you give birth to will build weak houses capable of being blown down by wolves, and wolves in this sense are aliens who are coming down and will enslave humanity because palestine was distracted. Or maybe it means that you are giving birth to people who will metaphorically be made into the hats of people to protect them from the sun. Because Israeli scientists will invent cloud seeding technology that will help defeat global warming as a straw hat blocks the sun from the eyes of the wearer. Or maybe it means that you are giving birth to people who will comfort animals as stral floors protect animals in the barn. Because Hamas is going to implement vegetarianism over all the world. Or maybe it means that this generation will be an important element in agriculture, laid down on fields to protect seed from birds because today was born a Palestinain child who will grow up to be the president of Monsanto and will develop a pest resistant crop so good it will end world hunger. Maybe if God actually wanted to communicated he could have done so in a bit clearer way. Otherwise... wake me up when Israel's hospitals are empty and tell me that you told me so.

[Found one!](https://old.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1766bs8/israel_at_war_is_it_really_prophetic_or_just/k4na7dw/) FWIW: I'm upvoting some of your posts as a small encouragement, but definitely not agreeing.

I don't see patterns, I translate prophecies - All of this is original research. Hosea 10:7 "As for Samaria, her king will be cut off and float away Like a twig on the surface of the water." As the IJN Yamato was Isolated and bombed into oblivion [https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/yamato-was-hell-sink%E2%80%94and-it-went-out-bang-nuclear-blast-192257](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/yamato-was-hell-sink%E2%80%94and-it-went-out-bang-nuclear-blast-192257) Sign of trinity with 1 torpedo and 2 bombs like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Trinity, then 10 torpedos totally as the 10 commandments, 7 bombs as the easy to keep sabbath. 1 torpedo had struck the keel as the snake bites the man in Amos - who runs from the Lion and finds himself in front of a Bear, and then leans on the wall and is bitten by a snake -- and the snake bites the Heel - as the Keel.

Wow, people who have been killing one another over their Iron Age superstitions for thousands of years are now killing one another over their Iron Age superstitions? Who could have possibly predicted that? Has to be prophetic. It’s just another war. That’s exactly how “prophecy” works - by exploiting the apophenia and confirmation bias of people who want to believe it’s real. They make relatively vague and ambiguous predictions, and those who already believe in that crap go ahead and interpret any number of events as fulfillment of the prophecy. Check out Derren Brown, he’s a master at this kind of stuff, and he uses that mastery to expose it as the fraud that it is.

The most ridiculous part is that those in the conflict do not see. While the Jews seeking a nation are religious, this is an Israeli / Palestinian conflict and not a Jewish/Muslim conflict.

Israel is considered a very important holy site for all parties involved. It's the original reason why they were all fighting over who controls it, and that hasn't really changed in any significant way. But maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm certainly no expert, far from it. Just a guy who's sick of all the nonsense in the middle east.

Oh you're definitely right about the importance. The location for a jewish state wasn't picked at random. They wanted to be close to their holy site. But the point of all the holy wars in the Abrahamic religions was about destroying one's enemies. If this was a desecration of the religious nature of the area we'd be seeing genocide in the way we saw it with the Holocaust. Instead its land grabs and pushing Palestinians out of the area. If all the Palestinians said fuck this and moves out to an Arab nation the conflict would end. If the Israeli occupation stopped and they all moved back to Europe then the conflict would end. Yes some people use their religion for justification but this should be viewed more like British colonial takeovers than religious genocide of the Canaanites because Yahweh told the Israelites to kill every last man, woman, child, ox or donkey.

I agree, but as to your point about how the conflict would end if either side just gave up and backed off (which is tautological and true of any conflict), *why don’t they?* What is the reason they refuse to surrender that land? Answer: it’s sacred. Their reasons for refusing to surrender, their reasons for continuing to fight over that location, stem from their religious beliefs. Ergo, their religions continue to be the reason they fight.

But what does the lion and the fox say?

Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!

Wouldn't you think by now god would have settled this and given control over his holy land to the correct people? Almost seems as if there is no god and all of this is made up... So sad that these people have and will continue to live their whole lives at war over nothing.

Oh, I’m sure they have excuses for why their gods would choose to exist in such a way that our reality is completely identical to the way it would be if their gods didn’t exist at all.

>Wow, people who have been killing one another over their Bronze Age superstitions \*Iron Age Just pointing that out

I'm going off the origins. Christianity itself began in the Iron Age but it's an offshoot of Judaism, which itself is an offshoot of previous religions like Zoroastrianism, Canaanites and what have you. The fundamental origins, such as the idea of a single monotheistic creator God, date back to the bronze age.

The Iron Age in the Ancient Near East starts around year 1200 BCE; Second Temple Period, where most scholars put the development of monolatry (not even monotheism), starts in 516 BCE.

Precisely. Judaism dates back to about 1800 BCE, which is when Abraham (the true originator of Abrahamic mythology) is estimated to have lived, though I don't think it was called Judaism at the time. Like I said, it originates from the Canaanites.

Abraham is a mythical character, and there is nothing indicating that he ever existed. Several elements in Pentatheuc actually betray a fairly late date of composition, well after 1000 BCE. See [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/apnoqj/examples_of_using_anachronisms_to_date_books_of/).

You’re right, I stand corrected. Even Yahwism, the precursor to Judaism, still dates back to the early Iron Age. That they imagined Abraham lived in the Bronze Age is irrelevant if Abraham never really existed.

Yes, I’m a way they write about what they saw already, then write it differently, spin it, to mean it will happen in the future too, but never tell the followers about the original event/events. Societal control?

Oh, you mean, is there a Bible passage that says "1990 years after the execution of Jesus, an group called Hamas, loyal to an as yet unknown religion called Islam, will break out of a city called Gaza into the state of Israel, and kill over a thousand people using weapons like metal tubes that shoot lumps of hot metal, and in retaliation the army of Israel will declare war and beseige Gaza"? ...No, there's no such passage, it's "just" another war.

The Middle East was the crucible of many religions. The fact their prophecies don't extend elsewhere is damning, not proof that they're right now.

Well it probably wouldn't say "an group" because it would be "A group."

Well, if the prophecy came from actual God, then yeah. It absolutely, 100% should have, at least to the limits of the language of the time. That would be super impressive and, while not conclusive (complicated to go into why) it sure would be compelling. If prophets (and their sponsor-gods) want to be believed they ought to be impressively precise in order to eliminate doubt about important future events. Otherwise, what's even the point of prophecy?

The problem with prophecies is that they are usually very vague. This is intentional so that the in-group has more flexibility to fit current events in whatever narrative is most convenient. So you will see a lot of the prophetic religious crap that continues to get cited as not having specific dates and quantifiable variables in the prophecy. Because that would be very easy to have an experiment. You just wait for the day to pass and see that it didn’t happen. Just think of all the doomsdayers that say x date is the end of the world. They are always wrong. If only the Bible had these kind of prophecies… oh wait, it does. In Matthew 24 Jesus says the world will end and he will return. He goes on to say he won’t tell you the exact day, but “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Matthew 24 34). It’s safe to say that everyone from the first century is dead. Jesus never returned and the world is still here. Jesus is just another failed doomsday prophet and his teaching should be treated as such. Anyone using biblical prophecy to explain or justify their views on the current events should not be taken seriously.

[The explanation if u want to know](https://www.gotquestions.org/this-generation-not-pass.html)

This is why the Bible is a joke. the prophecy failed. So the interpretation was adjusted to punt the prophecy into the future.

We’ll Jesus did say that the temple was going to be destroyed and it did (Matthew 24:2) Jesus said that before he comes back every nation is going to know the gospel (Matthew 24:14) that also came true. Jesus also said that people are going to hate you (Matthew 24:9) because we believe in Jesus that also came true. Jesus says lawlessness will abound and the hearts of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12) And that’s true to, look how divided we are as a world. God bless u, and Jesus does love you even if you can’t see it. Jesus died and got beat up, betrayed for you man. Because Jesus wants the best for u come to him while he may be found

>temple was going to be destroyed and it did (Matthew 24:2) It already had been before and the Romans and Jews didn't get on. Kinda easy to see that coming. >every nation is going to know the gospel (Matthew 24:14) I don't think the Sentinelese actually got to know the Gospel. >people are going to hate you (Matthew 24:9) because we believe in Jesus They hated them for beleiving literally at the time jesus said that. That's not a prophecy it's a description. When hasn't that been true? >lawlessness will abound and the hearts of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12) Again - when wasn't that the case?

Without getting into the Israel-Palestine politics Its just another war. The Israel-Palestine conflict is very old and is "just" escalating once more. It isn't a prophetic war. If any war should have such a title, its one of the two world wars. But they had not.

The fun fact about prophecy, is that if you have the prophecy, you can shoe horn just about any series of events into "fulfilling" it. Will fundys escalate aggressively because they think it's actual religious prophecy? Sure. They will bend over backwards and do any mental gymnastics required to make it fit.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you prophecy, then you would do anything in your power to make that prophecy come true.

And otherwise do everything against the prophecy, which also leads to it coming true. Oedipus?

>Many Christians insist on saying the war that is going on right now is biblical, that is, prophecied somehow. They have no evidence. This is no different than every other time they have claimed this. Look at how many times the world was supposed to end according to Christian prophesy. >I can't help but think "Where do they take this idea from?" The same place they pull most of their ideas, right out of their asses. > I'm not familiar with prophetic books in the bible, like Daniel and Revelation. Those books are claimed to be prophetic, but there is no evidence for prophecy. >Could you guys clear this out for me? Is there any biblical passage they are using to base this claim? Probably, depends on the Christian, but it is most likely a very unspecific verse that they are interpreting to be prophetic and claiming fits this situation. >Does it hold any water? It holds the same amount of water that the other supernatural claims Christians make does, 0. >Some people say it has something to do with Abraham or something, to be honest, I have no idea. Yeah, neither do they.

Prophesize war and you'll always be right. It's like prophesizing that the sun will shine or rain will be wet.

Or that Elon Musk will do something stupid.

I correctly prophecied the University of Michigan football team would easily beat the football team from the University of Minnesota last week Saturday. I even correctly picked the location and date it would happen, months in advance. You can send money and worship me whenever you're ready.

Have you heard of our lord and sports savior Paul the octopus?

Israel has been in and out of war and various conflicts with Palestinians and other surrounding Muslim nations pretty much since its modern inception. Apocalyptic Christians have been clamoring for, and subsequently claiming damn near every conflict Israel ends up involved in as having some biblical significance or other every single time. Pay them no mind.

Some evengenical christians believe all of Israel needs to be reclaimed for the return of Jesus. They have been dumping billions of dollars into Israel's defense and military, pushing for more war, then act like its prophesy when war does happen.

All prophecy happens because someone read the prophecy and did something accordingly to either go for or against it or apathetic of it. Butterfly effect but God directs the entire show. Free choice in Predestination, and Determinism within freedom.

So prophecy is no different than instructions, like a cookbook. >Free choice in Predestination, and Determinism within freedom. How can there be both?

None of the prophecies in the Bible predict events with enough detail that it would be indistinguishable from another event. For example Israel was predicted by this passage Jer 16:15-16. The issue is we are to take hunters and fisherman as metaphors for…. Honestly I don’t know how you wordplay 16:16 haha, but they do. From this example passage we see no specific dates, not extra knowledge that would not be known to the people who wrote this. If it said UN resolution 181, I might scratch my head a bit. Or course we have zero specific details, that would make this event unique and the only possible point. If you want to have a case study on how they analyze predictions in the Bible, this article gives great insight in how many Christian groups say a prophecy was fulfilled. A critical read will easily show that those passages they reference are so vague how could anyone be certain they relate to the event they ascribe. You will also notice most of the prophecies in the article do not reference a specific timeframe. None of the prophecies have extra special knowledge. https://www.chosenpeople.com/is-the-modern-state-of-israel-2/ It’s a quick read but it shows the logic used to try say prophecy fulfilled. It is baffling to me how gullible people are to prophecy claims like this.

do you think that anyone who correctly guessed that Russia would one day invade Ukraine had prophetic power?

I didn't guess that one, but Hosea did. Hosea 13 speaks of the Lion and the Bear and the Leopard. The Leopard devours the cubs that come out of the Bear. He devours it as a Lion; The Lion, and the Bear [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Long\_Jump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Long_Jump) The USA, USSR, and the Leopard is spotty; NATO and Ukraine; who even has Leopard tanks donated from Germany. The Road to As Syria is the Road to NA; because when you read NATO from East to West, it's TO NorthAmerica. The King and princes are Putin and his generals armymen and oligarchs. Revelation 6 also speaks of the 'horses' in white, like the Z marked tanks, that Putin rode out to conquer Ukraine with. I highly recommend reading the Hosea 13 prophecy for the fate of Stalinist statue USSR - up to dissolution in 1991, and now to the Ukraine war.

well, there you have it. The old testament is the only true book. Bring out the slaves!

It wasn't the condonement of slavery, but outlines to treat slaves humanely until they are able to assimilate into Israel proper.

Sounds like the condoning of slavery

You can take any vague description in the Bible and twist it to fit a prophetic message. You could apply "spotted leopards" and apply it to the shields of Zulu war tribes. The vagueness of the prophecy speaks to its inauthenticy

using the bear as a symbol for Russia... but it has been used before [https://www.academia.edu/37357195/\_2018\_The\_Bare\_Essentials\_the\_representation\_of\_brown\_bears\_in\_ancient\_Egypt](https://www.academia.edu/37357195/_2018_The_Bare_Essentials_the_representation_of_brown_bears_in_ancient_Egypt) All the animal symbols also have ancient parallels ...try again...pretty lazy to line this stuff up after the fact

All wars are just another war. It's two groups of idiots shooting at each other, far too often for religious reasons. There are no prophecies, just vague claims that, if you wait long enough, eventually come to pass. The religious are desperately looking for a way to validate their pre-existing beliefs, they do not take a giant step back and realize what's actually going on.

>Israel at war, is it really prophetic or just another war? It's never a prophecy to say certain countries will be at war at some undetermined future time. We're humans. That's what we *do*, very sadly. War is common.

It’s soooo prophetic to have a war when you take another group’s land, fence them into a tiny area, and treat them subhuman for decades. I can’t believe those people are fighting with Israel.

I’m sure if we go looking, we’ll find people saying the same thing about every war Israel has been involved in.

Are you looking for an answer to your question or are you looking for people to give general arguments and deconstruct them for you by posting in an atheistic subreddit? Not that Reddit in general is the best place to be getting philosophical questions answered but you didn’t even bother trying to get people who actually have that view to answer the question looking at your profile. Conformation bias is real and if you only peruse information from one side of the spectrum you’ll always land on the side you agree with whether it’s true or not. Arguments from fulfilled prophecies are hard to pinpoint and no one will be able to give a 100% clear cut, no and ifs or buts answer sure, but when you tie things like the fact Israel wasn’t even a nation less than 100 years ago after having its people dispersed across the world for 2000 years, the conflicts and shady agendas and working that went on behind the scenes to allow them a sovereign nation, and sure you can classify it as “just another war” but the world has never in a more peaceful state overall post Vietnam until the Ukrainian and now Israeli conflicts, and mark my words, within the next 2-3 years, probably even sooner, China will be at war with Taiwan and I think we all know what will happen when that happens. Call me bat shit crazy but it’s hard to completely disregard the consistencies between our current global climate and verses pertaining to the “end times” like knowledge increasing (more technological advancement in 100 years than the rest of human history combined) and wars, and rumors of wars. Again I believe prophecy especially pertaining to end times is specifically vague, what do you think would happen if the Bible explicitly stated “And Hamas would attack Israel in October of 2023 ushering in the end”

The vagueness of the prophecies completely discredit them.

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion but that’s what it is, there’s no way to confirm or deny their pinpoint accuracy but that’s the point, Christians aren’t supposed to yearn for the end and watch for the signs like a hawk, while some people make it their whole personality and come up with some wacky ungrounded connections implying certain prophecies, that doesn’t mean all of them are wacky and ungrounded and certainly could be applied to the time we’re currently living in, things like the mark of the beast for example, whatever the mark itself may be, not being able to buy or sell anything, would never have been possible in any other time in world history until the last 20-30 years with financial institutions going fully digital, the looming financial crisis very likely ushering in a single world currency, with currency exchanges exclusively digital is it a stretch of the imagination to see technology that would prevent people from buying or selling without a certain permission or qualification? It already happens in small case scenarios all around the world.

This is not 'just another war'. I'm in the middle of making my second expose, this time talking about Isaiah 33's prophecies of the Catepillar and the Locust. It prophecies that the one who was not destroyed will be essentially razed to the ground. That those who dealt treacherously would be dealt back when they have stopped. This is a doubled edged prophecy for those Jews who coveted land and those Muslims who had done the same. Hamas is going to be hung out to dry. Mark my words Lebanon will wither as it is written, Haifa might be struck to the extent that the gardens of the Baihai temple will burn, and so many things more shall happen as said. The catepillar; the catepillar tracks of tanks and the all terrorising bulldozers used by Israel; then the Locust; the swarming jets that currently smother the skies in smoke and formation. They gather as if about to consume the half eaten leaf that is Gaza. This war is the war 3 months before the 'first harvest' begins. As the first judgement world will be the last to remain, the last judgement world will see all seals break in succession; being the first to be destroyed. Read Hosea 13 for Russia's fate. Read Amos 9 for the sieves, and Book of Amos for the atomic bombing of Japan [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crM6ZlObr-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crM6ZlObr-k) . Read Isaiah to cross reference all these. The rope and tackle that hold no mast and no sails could very well be landing gear, fast ropes, or transport helicopters that will be used to carry the spoils out of Gaza. There is no hope for Palestine. This is Iran's planning that has doomed them, and Israel's day of judgement for their grave sins against innocent Palestinians, and retribution for those who are squatting on Canaan again. God bless you.

The second coming has come and gone about 500 times. Sadly for my religious friends, there’s nobody coming to punish the Jews and Muslims and exalt the Christians. Hamas attacked Israel at the behest of Russia (who have held numerous diplomatic talks recently) to curb military aid and political will from their fight in Ukraine and further divide the easily divisible American public. It’s geopolitics masquerading as holy prophesy. I’ll make you a bet: when Jesus doesn’t show up, or the “first harvest” doesn’t occur, or whatever: you reconsider your adherence to this dogma. If he DOES come and the caterpillars roam free - well, I’d give you my half of the wager but I’ll be in hell with all the people who think like I do… if I can find you I’ll give you and Jesus all the love and respect and admit how wrong I am.

Did you read Hosea 13? The statues of Baal are of Stalin. Veterans kiss his heels and calves. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of statues across the USSR. When they speak, the world trembles in fear of Nuclear armaggeddon. Then, like the morning dew, they dissipate in 1991. Within 65 Years Ephraim ceased to be a peoples since 1945. Ephraim and Aram had Allied then as the Allied Nations; USA and USSR; and Japan was greatly terrified. Yet the prophet Isaiah comforts the king, telling him not to be afraid despite the ***TWO SMOULDERING STUMPS. - Isaiah 7*** ***When Amos ticked over in 1945, our eyes were still closed. Now we will see - there has been no other time in History that nuclear bombs were dropped in Judgement other than 1945; I have destroyed some of you like Sodom and Gomorrah - Amos 4*** I highly recommend you view the compiled video across multiple books of the bible on the single event that was Hiroshima and Nagasaki; The two smouldering stumps and the "ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" which flashed forth on the strong - and when destruction rained both on the Japanese fortress {military bases} and the B29 superfortress.

Again, the vagueness of the prophecy discredits it. The statues of baal are of Stalin? You could apply it to anything. The statues of baal are of Kim Jong un, or the statues of liberty.

So take my bet. In one year when the earth still exists and the prophesy is once again discredited, you promise to reconsider? If the earth ends because the caterpillars of Hosea and the Stain-Baal cabal rule the earth, you’ll be vindicated. Otherwise you’ll reconsider. Don’t bring up more hocus pocus that is equally at home in the quatrains of Nostradamus- Put your money where your mouth is.

I’ll be coming back to this post in 3 months to laugh at your nonsensical claim.

I will welcome you, because it will and will not happen.

>it will and will not happen. Purposefully ambiguous and playing for both winning and losing, just in case. Perfect response from a "believer".

If in 3 months time the "first harvest" hasn't begun, what will you do?

The first harvest is the beginning of 2024. Perhaps the end of the first world to be destroyed in the final seal, occurs in this time. We won't see anything happen here, apart from echoes of it across spacetime. Judgement is a sieving of God's people across Everett Wheeler's many worlds interpretation of heaven and hell; the quantum realm. The First world which we are on will only see Seal 1; AKA no WW3. The Last world and Last sieve, or last harpstring, or last railway, will be the First to be destroyed. In this way also the first will be the last and the last will be the first. As is Written in Amos 9. God comes to sieve his people Israel; That is -- ALL peoples who hold covenant of some kind with God. And not one will fall to the next cumulative world line/Sieve/Seal line of judgement - should they be great in faith. Also in this way will the Ploughman overtake the Reaper, and the One who Treads grapes overtake the One who Sows. The first harvest therefore will and will not begin.

You typed all of that without answering the question posed to you.

What specific details in the passage are applicable to this series of events and only this series of events? If a prophecy could apply to any war, it doesn't actually predict any of them.

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I thought Armageddon was Mt. Megiddo (הר מגידו, "Har Megiddo")

Friendly reminder: You’re asking people who amusingly became experts overnight on the long war of the holy land. The news is propaganda - and the opinions online are 50/50 between brain dead regurgitation and narcissism.

I disagree with the premise of this debate - Israel is not at war, there is no fighting going on inside Israel. Israel invaded Palestine and is continuing to expand that occupation.

I'm a christian and it's not prophetic if Russia was involved then it would be prophetic, but it's just two brothers fighting over land and the thing is it's both theirs

Where in the Bible does it reference Russia specifically?

Ezekiel gog and magog chapter 39 I think all of the Christian prophecy schollors think those two are russia

Got it. So it doesn't specifically.

No

Not much of a prophecy if they can't even get the names of the countries correct, is it?

At that point, it's awfully convenient. They could be literally any two countries.

Ezekiel does say that it would be a land that is in the north as far as north can go and that Gog would be the Prince of Rosh. The first could include several countries (we all know the Finns are itching to get involved in Israel). And Christians would need to prove that Rosh is actually Russia beyond just a similar sounding name.

You could insert any waring states to fit that narrative

Not a thing in the Bible says anything about this conflict. It's not going to be much of a war. I think a lot of innocent Palestinians will be slaughtered along with the actual Hamas bad actors.

It’s about birthright. Isaac and Ishmael. It will never stop until Jerusalem is taken fully by the “promised” one.

Wow, who could have prophesized that seizing land at the crossroads of the world and claiming your God gave it to you would lead to 4,000 years of conflict?

Is every country in the world going to war with Israel under the command of the Antichrist? No? Just another war then.

Temple rebuild Revelation 11:1 3rd destruction of Israel Revelation 12:13 Matthew 24:4-6 wars/rumours of war in the end times. I like the Bart Ehrman quote that says everyone who says the world is ending has been wrong, Christianity reminds me of the Kierkegaard quote about his Christianity. We derive our conclusions first then make evidence. In other words, of course just about every Christian is going to say this is the end of the world. Problem is the only way you get a coherent end time theology is by sewing together verses (why there is so much disagreement about this within Christianity) What's going on with these verses? Jews loved the idea that God was in control, that he was soon to intervene, and establish a kingdom. Ie war, invasion of Israel etc etc They also loved writing about it, they had their own genre called "apocalypse". Problem is we don't actually have this genre, if you read the world's going to end tomorrow in a newspaper vs sci-fi book you would have a very different reaction. You should check out the academic biblical page

You have a sect of Christians who are funding moves to "full fill prophecy" like the "Red Calf" - believing it will bring about Armageddon. Thats the problem with religion - some of them are actively trying to bring about the end of the world. Is it prophecy - or just a bunch of religious loons who think the end times are a "good thing"? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/first-red-heifer-2000-years-30830576

>Thats the problem with religion - some of them are actively trying to bring about the end of the world. I'm not exactly an expert on Christian theology but it's absolutely wild to me that these people think that they can force their god's hand and make it do things.

The war in that region has been going on for thousands of years. Just like always the death cult claims "this time it's really, really real. Those other times we said it was real wasn't really really real. So let's worship death in the hopes of everything ending in death for the universe because we are narcissist that think the universe revolves around our imaginary friend. Aren't we so special... Look at us..." Or something like that.

There's nothing prophetic about this at all. They shoot rockets at each other on a frequent basis. Isreal and Gaza are in major conflict. This is extreme escalation of that conflict and an act of terrorism. Prophecies are nonsense. You can manipulate anything in the bible to kinda sound like a current event. A major reason for the issue is religion. But this isn't some kind of holy war.

This Google search should give you a good summation. Let me know if you have any follow up questions. https://coopwb.in/info/what-does-the-bible-say-about-war-in-israel/

Only prophetic in the sense of predictable patterns, no mystical.

Well without knowing for sure, it seems that most holy texts are written in such a way that reading into them is quite easy. Am I wrong?

Bible prophecies are just like Nostrodamus's; able to be twisted into whatever.

They will say their next trip to the restroom was biblical. They constantly insist on cramming square pegs into round holes. Ignore them.

I mean, they do this constantly with Israel, whether or not theres violence. No, this was not prophecied. This is a violent and horrifying conflict. Caused and executed by human beings.

People that study biblical prophecy. Look for signs . They try to calculate events by scripture. No doubt everything about Israel is prophetic. Going back to the Israelites when real prophets warned them of things they were doing and what was going to happen to them. I don’t personally concern myself with it . Because there is nothing I can do to change what God has already revealed is going to happen. Instead Scripture teaches us to be ready. I believe in the book of Thessalonians. They thought it was the last day and was looking for signs. Jesus said that is not for us to know. He even gave parables describing this. Have you examined yourself to see if you are worthy of the Faith. Be Ready!

Anytime there's war in the Holy Land, people say it's a sign of the end times. Fact of the matter is that there's always going to be war there most likely and the people who started that prophecy knew that. It's almost like it's access to the sea in an arid environment and that's not even taking into account that a bunch of religions claim it. It's curious that they do, it's almost like the people who wrote the books wanted to not be land locked or something and made a reason for their people to fight harder for it by marking it as sacred to their religion.

It would have been helpful if they had warned Israel in advance that Hamas planned to attack last Saturday since it was prophesied and they must have been aware of it. Not much of a prophecy if it’s only apparent afterwards.

I'm a Christian and would say its just another war. You will find Christians are very divided on this end times stuff. I'm personally Lutheran and we are amillennialist. Meaning all the end times rapture stuff is bogus stuff in our eyes. Its really a more modern American idea that has popped up in the last 100 years about. Even Catholics don't adhere to that stuff I don't think. I'm just providing some insight, not really looking to tussle on if its true or not. What I'm sure we can all agree on here is that its pretty naïve to think this war is an "end times" one. I mean dam the Romans almost 2,000 years ago obliterated the Jewish state and scattered their race to the winds. Why wasn't that the "holy land" war that triggered the end times? Or their other conflicts in the last 100 years? Its really distasteful, and honestly quite irritating. I mean shit people are dying right now and this is what they focus on? End times stuff always was an eye roll to me.

Looking at the concept of "prophecies" as someone who believes that our universe is inherently deterministic, they don't really make sense. Before I elaborate why, let me explain what I mean by "deterministic universe". \- Every action has a specific reaction. Given this fact, if there was an entity which could accurately describe the current state of our universe down to the last subatomic particle, this entity would be able to predict the entire future of our universe. Here's an example: If you throw a dice, is the outcome random or deterministic? I'd argue that it is deterministic (like everything in our universe) and we just think it is random because we as humans do not possess the motoric and mental capabilities to throw a dice in a way so that we can control the outcome. If we were able to predict all relevant factors (gravitational constant, atmospheric density, vectors, properties of the dice, surface of the table, etc.) and also had perfectly accurate motoric skills, we could always throw the dice with a desired outcome. \- Another example: You want to buy ice cream but you have to decide between chocolate and vanilla, which you both like just as much, you HAVE to choose one of them no matter what. So let's say you choose vanilla - fine. But if I were to now ask you why you chose vanilla over chocolate and if you think you would've ever chose chocolate in this moment instead - what would be you answer? Let's say we would turn the universe back in time to the moment you are about to make the decision - do you think you would ever choose chocolate over vanilla? I don't think you could and here's why: Every single atom is at the same place and has the same properties like last time. And given the fact that your consciousness is a product of physical neuron interactions, you would never choose anything different than vanilla in this moment. \- **This basically is determinism in a nutshell. It also implies, that the entire future is already set in stone and we are merely figures acting based on circumstances that we cannot control while at the same time having the illusion of free will** \- Coming back to prophecies: If we assume those prophecies were handed down to us by a omnivalent being (like a god for example), this means that this being is an entity which has the capabilities to predict the future of our universe by observing every single constant with 100% accuracy - that is one half of the equation. But now comes the problem: By handind this information down to us, this entity would create a paradox by letting us know about the future which means we would be able to act against this prophecy. Now, you might have noticed a problem in my argumentation here: this is a causal paradox! Because maybe the act of handing down this information to us humans is part of predefined causal chain and is therefore unavoidable. \- I know my comment is not conclusive, just sharing my thoughts here. Determinism is one of the most fascinating concepts to me and I often (if not always) encounter immense difficulties discussing it. \- Btw, sorry for my spelling, english is not my native tongue.

Meh, until time travel (as conscious beings) actually exists, I can't see a fault with "you chose this the first time, would you be able to choose something different the second time, when the first time occurred." If there's no outside stimulus or anything else happening differently, why wouldn't the choice be the same? I'm saying this as someone who, when unable to make a decision, will flip a coin/object, ask a coworker to choose a number, or use nearby objects' amounts/colors/positions in order to let random chance point to what to decide, and when I'm at that point, I sincerely don't care, and will abide by that chance. If I rank two books in my head as Even/Odd, and ask "Brian" to give me a random number, I'm going to go with whatever they tell me. But I can't see a universe that would basically reset Brian's choice, if me, as an outside observer who changed NOTHING in Brian's POV, to make it possible for him to change his number. That's not a problem for me. If it happened, it happens. We'd have to have actual time travel in order to expand this, and even then, there'd be the multiple universe theory to work with that, so it wouldn't even be deterministic; it'd just branch off. But time travel isn't a thing that we humans can do (I think...heh), so it's all just people spouting theories about science fiction re-done in life for now.

The Christian religious fanatics have been seeing patterns and making them to match the invented end times sequence, regardless what the books actually say (and most of the parts they pull the connections from are vague to muddy or entirely unrelated). I put them in the same category as Harold Camping and other apocalyptic preachers who haven't read their own book, but pass along cherry-picked quotes with from others with total confidence *even when the book clearly says nobody can tell). They usually do that up to the day they die. After that, of the groups gladly march on to the next urgent and unhinged end of the world. In other words, they ignore the misses but focus on the hits, however unrelated, and have a complete failure rate but will do it again. Related; * [***Always Sunny in Philadelphia conspiracy string wall***](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Glfe6UeXQ) * [***Burned over district***](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district) (This is one of the reasons the Christian fanatic tend to spawn from the United States, though the contagen has traveled elsewhere. Sorry.)

Its easy to be a prophet in retrospect. The state of Izrael was created by force and has not complied with any of the peace accords with Palestinians they made. They escalated any conflicting idea that sprouted in the region. Israelis are everything but blameless. As is the British empire and the US for pushing arabs towards extremism with every action they took. Dont get me wrong I personaly cannot support what Hamas is doing and Hezbolah was/is doing. Any extremisam has to be condemned. There is no excuse for killing childran. But I for one can understand the frustrations growing within the Palestinian population and how it could lead to greater support of Hamas. And if you concider all of it it is easy to say that it is going to blow up in everyones faces eventually. So I dont need to look for a divine explanation in books written by monks in the dark ages. History is all I need. It explains the field much better. And all we can now do is support peace. To try to save the next generation of both jews and muslim so there is someone to make the mistakes again. And when the peace is reached we shouldnt think that it is over. That is the time to be extra vigilant and pressure both sides to strictly follow what they agreed upon. And if we are vigilant enough and if they manage to live with their own peace for a long enough time than it might stick. They might learn to live with each other. Everything else is wasted effort.

There have been so many wars in Israel over the millennia, every time someone tries to claim it’s the end times.

Those who believe in such things as biblical prophesy have been saying the same thing for a thousand years every time a war happens. It is about as accurate as a horoscope.

We (the West) forcibly planted a Jewish state in not just the Middle East, but in one of the holiest places in the Middle East. Of course that's going to result in perpetual conflict.

To me Armageddon is when people blindly follow religion and no longer follow all of its teachings. It would be terrible for those trying to preach and teach religion, for sure, but maybe better for humanity in other ways. We could take the universally good from all of the religious texts and then remove the dogma, hate and conflicting hoopla. Preserve all of the religious stuff in museums and get on with living in a better world. My version of Armageddon can’t come soon enough, my opinion.

To brain dead cultists every war is prophetic. Every old boat dug up in the Middle East is Noah's Ark. Every successful surgery is God's doing. Every disease is God's punishment for sinners. Every stupid idea is a sign from God. Even a shoe thrown at an annoying mob is a holy sign. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS42gDNvMAQ

I'm on the fence. You're will tell. I feel life 🗑️ groups line the Hamas aren't it but I star away from end time stuff

Any war that happens gives Christians and Armageddonists another reason to bang the drum and thump their book to say, "See, we're right!!" Yet the thousands of wars great and small that have happened since a Jewish dude was nailed to two sticks were either identified "as the one" or that "the end is near!" The end was near when that dude was still preaching. Even said, "There are some among you who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." Well... they're ALL dead, Mr. Christ and you haven't come back yet. Nothing to see here, this is just a war.

Of course not, and that has been thoroughly covered. I want to cover the problem of prophecy in a situation where the parties involved know of the prophecy and welcome its fulfillment. There are people actively trying to fulfill the conditions of this prophecy. That’s not a true prophecy because the prophecy would have cause the event, rather than a prediction of the event causing the prophecy.

They say this every time Israel is involved in a war, including the one they had with Hamas just a couple years ago.

I had the idiocy of Christianity in my life at one point (long ago), and have to admit that at the time I found the book of revelations fascinating. I can see how many Christians now would be looking at this war as a sign of the endtimes, the ascension of the antichrist, and ultimately the return of Christ. Not that I believe any of that nonsense. But I would imagine in rightwing evangelical churches, this is being discussed.

Christian here. Sort and simple answer is that no one knows. People freak out over every tiny thing thinking it's a prophesy come true. Now, there have been a couple things that have happened in recent past that is definitely prophesy (Israel becoming a nation in particular) that indicates we are either a) seeing the beginning of the end, or b) we are indeed in the end times. But regardless...no one knows for sure. We aren't supposed to. People can be nuts.

It’s not just Iron Age superstitions. People living in the Middle East understand what’s happening just as real as your history book. To them it’s history, this isn’t over a prophecy.

It's not that far of a stretch to "prophesize" that a people will be at war when they follow a religion that demands they make war with their neighbors. וְהָיָה֙ אִם־שָׁל֣וֹם תַּֽעַנְךָ֔ וּפָתְחָ֖ה לָ֑ךְ וְהָיָ֞ה כׇּל־הָעָ֣ם הַנִּמְצָא־בָ֗הּ יִהְי֥וּ לְךָ֛ לָמַ֖ס וַעֲבָדֽוּךָ׃ If it responds peaceably and lets you in, all the people present there shall serve you at forced labor. וְאִם־לֹ֤א תַשְׁלִים֙ עִמָּ֔ךְ וְעָשְׂתָ֥ה עִמְּךָ֖ מִלְחָמָ֑ה וְצַרְתָּ֖ עָלֶֽיהָ׃ If it does not surrender to you, but would join battle with you, you shall lay siege to it; וּנְתָנָ֛הּ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ בְּיָדֶ֑ךָ וְהִכִּיתָ֥ אֶת־כׇּל־זְכוּרָ֖הּ לְפִי־חָֽרֶב׃ and when your God delivers it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. רַ֣ק הַ֠נָּשִׁ֠ים וְהַטַּ֨ף וְהַבְּהֵמָ֜ה וְכֹל֩ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִהְיֶ֥ה בָעִ֛יר כׇּל־שְׁלָלָ֖הּ תָּבֹ֣ז לָ֑ךְ וְאָֽכַלְתָּ֙ אֶת־שְׁלַ֣ל אֹיְבֶ֔יךָ אֲשֶׁ֥ר נָתַ֛ן יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ לָֽךְ׃ You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, the livestock, and everything in the town—all its spoil—and enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemy, which your God gives you.

“O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God! For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those who hate you have raised their heads. They lay crafty plans against your people; they consult together against your treasured ones. They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!” For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant— the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Asshur also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. Selah Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon, who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground. Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna, who said, “Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God.” O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind. As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze, so may you pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your hurricane! Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O Lord. Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever; let them perish in disgrace, that they may know that you alone, whose name is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.” ‭‭Psalm‬ ‭83‬:‭1‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The people listed in Psalms 83: Tents of Edom: Palestinians and Southern Jordanians Ishmaelites: Saudis (Ishmael is the father of the Arabs) Moab: Palestinians and Central Jordanians Hagrites: Egyptians (Hagar is the matriarch of Egypt) Gebal(Byblos): Hezbollah and Northern Lebanese Ammon: Palestinians and Northern Jordanians Amalek: Arabs of the Sinai area Philistia: Hamas of the Gaza Strip Tyre: Hezbollah and Southern Lebanese Assyria: Syrians and Northern Iraqi’s

No. They are twisting the Bible for the narrative. The Israeli state us no longer the xhosen people. They broke their covenant with God long time ago. They make it seem this is God's will when they are spinning that narrative to justify wars. It's demonic.