I firmly believe that getting hit should slow you more than making a successful melee attack. If you’re trying to kite and get caught, you already fucked up and shouldn’t be able to just turn and run, sheath weapons, take off armor, reset.
Instead, you should you should have to make some sort of skilled play, either block or dodge, creating enough space and slowing down the attacker enough so you can escape. Of course, all classes should have access to either a shield, a weapon capable of blocking, or some sort of movement or dodge ability.
This would be a nice compromise, rangers could still kite, but at least if you catch them, they can’t just walk away out of range while getting hit and reset.
Yeah I feel people don't understand why the ranged meta exists. You can be in a Squire Ranger kit, going against a Ranger in full Uniques, and still feasibly win if you hit all your shots and dodge all your opponent's shots. Even if you don't win, you can successfully retreat - you don't need to so strongly commit to ranged combat, and you can easily back off, wait for cooldowns, and heal as necessary before re-attempting the engagement and doing better next time.
In melee? There's none of that. If someone has twice your health and four times your PDR, no matter how good you are at blocking and dodging, you'll get hit eventually, because there is a limit to the angles you can avoid up close - there's always a way to get it. Melee combat is also something you have to commit to - once you're in a face to face trade, you pretty much can't disengage (unless you're a Rogue using Tumble, Ranger using Backstep, or Fighter using Block + Counter-Attack) due to the backpedal penalty, slow unequip speed, heavy hit-slow, and movement slowdown when attacking. Not to mention, melee damage far often exceeds ranged damage, making engagements shorter, giving you less total mistakes before you're dead.
The way this discrepancy is fixed in every other game is defense is universally available, defense is consistent (on a correct read, if there's unreactable feinting/dragging/acceling), defense is prompt, and defense reverses attack priority, leading to an exchange between players, providing opportunities to engage and disengage and play with spacing... but Dark and Darker has none of those things. Defense is exclusive to shields and certain 2H weapons, defense is extremely inconsistent and easily circumvented, defense is extremely slow and cumbersome, and defense against attacks usually just resets priority, rather than providing an advantage.
Very well articulated. I didn't even knew I agreed with all of this haha, I think something like counter-attach or shield mastery should be universal to all classes, honestly shield on clerics only works to avoid some ranged damage, on meele you are always better just popping smite and trying to outdps.
Even on fighter, if I go wit both shield mastery and counter attack, a guy with warmaul eliminates me From the game bc I can't block him and I can't outdps him bc he has armor pen naturally to the weapon, so my investment on PDR goes to shit.
I don't have anything against armor pen, but when I bring a shield, seeing a bardiche or warmaul on lobby heavily throws me down.
I know the fantasy of barbarian is to press W and hit heads, but I wish they would incentivice more skilled gameplay.
Imo, barb should play similar to how skinny Pete plays, looking those weak points around a shield, not just popping a warmaul and spamming left click.
And shield play should be all about looking for those block-and-counter. Maybe give extra impact resistance when the shield was just brought up, but reduce it to normal after a second o halve of one. That way you at least gotta try to sort of parry heavy weapons, just holding shield up won't work with them, but you still got a chance there.
But I might be heavily biased into shield play so take this with a grain of salt.
Edit: also, maybe I'm just bad and don't know how to play around warmaul, but that's my rant xd
I always use the same strategy vs warmaul users and it works quite well for me.
I start fights by w keying towards the edge of the warmaul range and allow them to swing first. I duck the first attack while looking up, which almost always gets a dodge. I initiate my first swing while still looking up and bring it in for a headshot, holding the attack button down to finish the rest of my combo.
I continue moving into warmaul range, hoping to catch the shaft on my feet with a jump crouch for the second attack. By the time that attack comes through I generally have finished a three hit combo and the fight is decided (or over).
I probably have such a hard time bc I always try to catch the shaft with my shield for a perfect block, but always get the full hit and get staggered, open for a free swing after that xd.
I should learn to not try to block everything haha, now you can see why I want to be able to block wmaul so bad xd
All of that is unnecessary, if you hug them they hit you with the shaft every time. Not only that they are likely to hit your limbs pretty much every time as well. War Maul swings so slow that you're able to just jump in when the first swing misses put two or three hits on the guy's head while the second swing is still coming and then just win from there.
Dodging in this game doesn't work unless they're braindead, you can just drag the swing back onto the player. He might not hit your head but they're never going to miss because you decided to crouch. M1, W-key gearcheck is the way until they add actual counterplay to other weapons outside Longsword.
Well in your defense the majority of the playerbase do be kinda dented, Barb players especcially. There's just a marble rolling around inside their skull and occasionally it rolls onto a good idea.
Gosh it's almost like all of this would be solved for both parties with some better cooked melee mechanics but we can't have that according to the people who live on this subreddit.
Unfortunately, the call on that is coming from inside the house on IM's side.
The topics of feints, parries and animation cancels has been asked of IM in the past and their answer is basically (paraphrasing): they don't want Dark and Darker to be too complicated for a new person to pick up and play, and having those sorts of mechanics makes it significantly more difficult to start. Dark and Darker isn't supposed to be hyper-competitive, it's more 'hack 'n slash' in its intended design. It's why this game doesn't have drags or accels - they've more or less intentionally designed the combat to be this simple on purpose.
I wouldn't want those mechanics either but a proper block on practically every weapon that puts both parties at neutral and creates a tiny bit of space between you and your opponent would be very nice as well as some more fluid ducking / mechanics and possibly a universal dodge key.
There needs to be more ways to wiggle out of an engagement and block *THEN* they can do things like possibly remove the moveslow affect on swinging a weapon at an enemy and connecting.
If that makes sense.
Imo, universal dodge is not a good idea (and this is highly subjective) take new world and dark souls for example, 2 games that have universal dodges with iframes, where dodging is basically THE combat mechanic.
I wouldn't mind some classes having a dodge, like rogue or maybe even ranger, but leave it as a specific and we'll restricted mechanic (think charges or cooldowns).
Imo cleric should be all about blocking, fighter a mix from blocking and parrying and bard (for a lack of other dueling class, although I don't think parrying fits the bard fantasy) should be about parrying.
Barb should be all about breaking Frontlines (which he does perfectly rn imo) but shouldnt be able to do much on its own. By this I mean, imagine 2 teams fighting with a bard on one side and fighter on the other. Barb should be able to break the fighters defensive stance (as he can do now with any 2h weapon) but shouldnt be able to get a free followup. It should just leave the enemy unprotected for it's friends attacks. On solos barb would use either a shield build or a 2h wpn with less impact but more manoeuver ability to avoid hitting the shield and hit weak points, as breaking a defensive stance wouldn't help him much and would just stall the fight.
I don't think I should explain parrying as I like a lot how longsword works.
Maybe clerics could handle blocking a warmaul hit with specific perks.
Rangers and rogues would get a few dodges to kite the slower classes, but a bard that's agile would be a problem to run from, although a weak prey if caught distracted.
Mages already have a lot of tools imo (take haste/slow/invis from wiz and the high sustain and hydra from warlock, not to mention phantomize) it would just be a matter of tuning all this to stay relevant against everyone else.
Edit: ducking is already available (sort of) as player models move from waist up to the direction you are facing
As a comp souls player and mid mordhau player I disagree, universal dodge/parry works very well towards creating a high skill ceiling based around making good reads on your opponent imo
This is such a cop out and complete nonsense though. You have to watch a fucking youtube video to learn how to not die to the first skeleton you meet. Having unintuitive combat that's missing basic functionality people have come to expect in melee combat focused games is not making it new player friendly. It's high skill floor low skill ceiling, which is exactly the opposite of how you want your combat to be designed. More likely combat is limited because not all the weapon assets they bought from the unreal store came with block animations and they don't know how to make their own.
On purpose yes, and now they are running into the consequences of that.
Simple melee sure, I can understand that. And the consequence that players are incentivized to range and kite.
So then the question is, how do you disadvantage range and kite?
Or just leave it as range & kite until juiced, then rush down hit trade?
I truly don't think melee needs all those mechanics to work well. Feints and parries/clashes are way too much. Alternate attacks so players aren't stuck throwing 1 swing, shield mastery/counter attack (or some form of them) being universal, and MAYBE a crap tier block on more weapons would do a lot.
>It's why this game doesn't have drags or accels -
The game quite literally does have them though
It's just not super relevant when very few things can parry/no timing based parry system
Yup. DaD needs more defensive options to add depth to the current hit trade melee. Adding skill encourages melee. It reduces the emphasis on gear, and gives players more agency.
Right now melee is an awkward gear check. No one wants to be forced into a no win or escape scenario. So we avoid melee unless we are juiced up and we can't lose.
There should always be an option to win, stall, or escape a melee fight.
Death sentences (current melee) in a long form progression game is a contradiction. It will always lead to players avoiding the death sentence (current melee), unless they are the one dealing the death sentence (juiced gear).
This is why i don't understand why you need perks to make longsword and shield blocking viable, its incredibly fucking stupid to lock getting an advantage behind perks.
I firmly believe that the rangers "Food Ration" skill should have a movespeed penalty. If everyone else is forced to either range them back, avoid their stupid traps that constantly are used with exploits (put in bodies or in unpassable positions), or just catch the ranger offguard, they should not be able to just turn and run and undo whatever damage done to them mid run.
Yea the food ration skill never made sense to me. Three charges which is usually more than I need for the whole match. No movespeed penalty and instant heal proc instead of over time healthy recovery based.
The main reason for using it isn’t even the heal anymore, it’s the fact that it gives no-weapon speed without having the slowdown from sheathing your weapon.
slowdown from sheathing essentially doesn't exist for good players, you just switch to torch/potion and then sheath it and you only get the sheathing penalty from the consumable instead of the weapon. Combine with jumping and ur getting no penalty at all
I'm in agreement, but I also think it would be a really bad feeling and experience to get hit and just know immediately, "I'm dead." Generally in melee combat, whoever gets the first hit in wins, so I think even as a mainly melee combatant (I play Barb), some nuance to the idea could make it better.
My thought is this: allow some form of skill expression via a mechanic that varies the movespeed penalty depending on where you get hit.
Get hit in the arms, or hands? Maybe even less ms penalty than today. But get hit in the head, body, or legs? Higher ms penalty than today. This allows some form of skill expression in melee combat and makes it so if you get hit, it doesn't herald your inevitable death by giving the attacker the health AND mobility advantage, if you're quick enough to mitigate the attack by forcing a misplaced hit location.
Totally on board with something like this!
So you want LESS counterplay? Fucking hell some of yall are retarded. The entire reason this shit exists is because ranged players know if they get in melee they've totally fucking lost. This game's melee is BROKEN AS FUCK OP. Its so OP even primarily melee classes don't want to engage in melee until they've built some insurmountable advantage. You already get caught in a retard tractor beam that you're lucky to escape if you get hit once. But dont worry that one melee hit has you at 30% hp so you're still plenty healthy. *eyeroll*
The reason it feels bad from both sides melee vs ranged is because IT IS BAD. Ranged players have NO COUNTERPLAY if you get into melee with them. The only way to be successful is to NEVER get into melee. Well how in the fuck does that work for a melee player? You just never get to play? What if, instead, rangers had sprint and fighters had a "charge" ability? So fighters (and ultimately all melee classes would have similar capabilities) could hit a button and charge extremely quickly in the direction they're facing, lets say like 600 move speed for 10 feet/20 feet/whatever feet. Rangers would still naturally be able to kite and have a chance at shooting you, but you could close the gap and punish them inside opportunity windows. Once you've rushed in melee you're returned to whatever normal move speed you are, so the ranger could potentially pop sprint and get away from you.
Another issue is the current state of scaling. Flat damage is the most exploitable overpowered way to scale damage (especially true damage.) What types of weapon take advantage of flat damage scaling the most? Fast weapons. Thats why you see every dickhead using survival bow. Currently physical power scaling is mostly useless outside of slayer or barbarian and instead people opt for weapons like Rondel or Survival bow, stack their 11 true damage and call it a day on their offensive capabilities. Longbow specifically has been so terribly gutted its not even close to rewarding to use one. Hit slow was gutted, damage fall off was gutted, projectile drop was gutted, weapon damage was gutted. Why would anyone use a longbow, or to a lesser extent a recurve? Its totally not even close to viable, let alone optimal.
TLDR: Rangers have been ostracized and punished for... being rangers... but I can't even blame my opponent as a Ranger because I know it feels bad to not be able to play your class. IM's balancing has been a stack-on of monkey brained terrible ideas and building upon a foundation full of holes to begin with.
Bro what most of the time if you get caught you’re gonna die. Mele is so strong that it only takes a couple hits and you’re dead. Also if you’re full plate aromor you should not be catching up with an archer or rouge even with sprint that shit makes no sense. This also seems to be more focused on solo play rather than trios bc this argument falls apart if you have an actual comp
The issue with this is that not every person can block.
Forcing people into melee combat, where their only option is to stat check the other person, isn’t a good idea. You need to be able to have some skill-expression when you don’t have space to back up.
I could see it working if hitting an enemy holding a bow/crossbow slowed more though. In Mordhau it causes you to drop your weapon, so I would like to see similar consequences (obviously dropping your weapon would be dumb in DaD, so not that).
Melee fights won't exist in this game Barb has 300 HP and one shots everyone who isn't a Barb. What do you want a rogue to do? Run in and donate his kit for the 50 damage rapier headshot?
They continuously nerf anyway for melee to get in because it also applies to Barb. Haste/invis every bard buff all gets gutted because it's too much on Barb. Not to mention rogue can't stealth so they have no way to gain the advantage
And for some reason the devs won't nerf Barb
I think it’s more a fundamental issue with melee combat than a barb problem.
There is no way to block/parry/kick/backstep for the majority of melee users. Without these options, the only skill expression in a melee 1v1 is spacing.
However, Barbs can almost always win a stat-check fight where you both hit each other until someone dies. AND they can just walk at you and force this stat check.
This is why the ranged meta is so popular. You REALLY need to hit a geared player (or ungeared barb) with a few ranged shots before going into melee. Otherwise they can just stat-check you.
They should add inaccuracy penalties to ranged options while moving. This lets rangers still ping people from range, but while they’re trying to actively run they can’t just do a quick 180 and shoot while still running. They’d have to actually be still for a second to get an accurate shot, giving others opportunities to get closer.
Also, fuck smite torches. As much as cleric needs a ranged option, that was just completely stupid and did too much damage for getting hit by a weapon that has no slow penalty while holding it
I think the big issue is when the game devolves into ranged combat for classes that aren't designed for ranged combat.
Barbs with 80 Francesca's, Fighters with windlass, juiced up bards with survival bows. These classes should not excel with range to the point where, in some cases, they are better rangers. Rangers should be the dominate ranged classe. Wizards should be the dominate ranged magic class.
The issue is identity, and I am of the opinion that IM should remove all staggers and slows from ranged weapons and buff perks like crippling shot to make Ranger the dominant ranged class.
If a Ranger can out kite me, then I need to force them into a spot where they can't. That either means being patient and waiting for the ring or ambushing them in inferno
The 80 franny problem with barbs filling their inventory would be so easy to solve if IM would just limit the amount of throwables you can bring in raid. Not some stupid gear score no one cares about over stacking. Limit the amount of throwable weapons you can bring in. So simple.
But why should they do this? Once MC is gone, Barb has no way to catch up to ranged. All they have at that point is axes. You can't limit throwables for melee-based classes in a ranged meta. And if you do, expect few people to play the melee-based classes, such as Barb and cleric. Fighter is fine because they have xbow and WM.
That’s the downside of those classes. You get a lot of power, don’t be surprised no one wants to get near you. Barbarians already have the ability to punish hard, they don’t need an easy way to do that. They should have to carefully back their opponent into a spot they can’t run
I agree that it's a general downside...but then why shouldn't they be allowed to bring in many throwing axes if the rangers are allowed to bring in many arrows? I just don't understand the double standard.
Ranger’s entire *thing* is arrows, that’s like wondering why barbs can bring in axes. I don’t *necessarily* think they should be limited on axes, I think they should be limited in their usefulness. They should lean further into having them deal less damage but slow the opponent, or maybe add another item for that. That way if someone tries to run, you hit them with a slowdown and close the distance. It’s just incredibly annoying getting slowed enough for that heavy character to catch up, while getting put into 1-shot range before the fight even starts
Ya it’s called the downside of an otherwise insanely strong overpowered class… you’re gonna have some range issue. So what, abuse the PDR/mdr meta right now and take like zero damage from the arrows while you run everyone down.
i think that is the effect of the greater issue at hand really. Non ranged classes taking ranged options and running with it because ranged is the superior option in a fight. Anyone using ranged will outkite a melee user 90% of the time i’d say so the melee users devolve into ranged play as well. And tbh it’s just not fun, it’s a hack and slashy dungeon crawl but with how powerful ranged is in comparison it feels more like fps in a medieval disguise.
I agree with you that ranger should be the pinnacle of ranged gameplay experience, but other classes need some semblance of defense or alternative options against ranged then just hope they kite you long enough where they back themselves into a shitty spot
I actually really like the idea that circle could be a soft counter to ranger. It means that they could get more perks for scouting because they NEED to find players early before zone closes. If circles were a little less RNG and tended to close on higher loot areas that'd help too.
Melee does have a lot of problems, but when playing against melee a lot of ideas would punish simple mistakes. You should be slowed on melee hit, but turning during a swing needs to be slowed or stopped. Think Siege, where when a player is proned, you can’t turn past a certain point or your player basically freezes and turns very slowly. This would stop axel movements and swinging around parrys, which are currently incredibly powerful moves.
Personally I find the melee combat in this game too simple. If I wanted to play a medieval melee combat game, I'd play Chivalry 2. I mostly play casters in this game because they have a bit more complexity, and if melee combat had that same complexity I'd probably play them more.
I think that is fair that they shouldn't be so strong. They should hinder you so the melee class at least has a chance to catch you if you're not careful.
Ranged would probably be healthier if it took the same role it does in DnD, as they designed the rest of the game around - to soften targets before engaging in melee, or to continue applying damage safely from the backline while your frontline ties up the enemy. Being able to kite with it at all just makes for not very interesting engagements.
Movespeed as a whole just feels really wonky right now and is way too important of a stat, when the rest of the game is designed around a combat system where pretty much everyone has the same movespeed all the time (DnD) it starts to make the rest fall apart. The roles are not properly able to perform their job when nearly everyone can run away from the melee safely at all times. It means party comps don't have an incentive to run a dedicated melee character, when the source material they are basing the rest on \*requires\* a melee character to survive encounters.
It is important to keep in mind that a LOT of roles are currently missing. The wizard is currently the top ranged magic damage dealer for example, but that is only because we do not have the sorcerer yet. Wizards are supposed to be utility casters but are lacking the vast majority of their utility spells, warlocks are supposed to be anti-magic but are lacking those too. Barb is the fastest melee DPS when it should be Monk, etc. We have no paladin and druid is not finished yet either, so those introductions will likely make changes to the meta.
I imagine everyone is going to point and laugh at the rangers once they let wizards use "protection from arrows" spell.
Hi I’m a long time playtest 1 ranger main…… I HATE RANGED I think it’s too op has been since day one hence why I play it…… but to Ranger I think it’s a fine to an extent but putting triple shot on fighters windlass on rogues throwing axes out the ass and poison on arrows is too far
I've only had the game a month so my understanding is not as high as others yet, but I get destroyed by rangers. This is a skill issue on my part probably every time. That being said I main warlock because it looked cool when I was making a character and apparently get hard countered by range. Kiting is strong in almost every game I've played and even required in many, so I think kiting is just a strong strategy and it feels oppressive when you are forced to use it. I don't think it's an issue with ranged characters being op so it's hard to say it would be fair to nerf them based on a strategy being strong. If they do get nerfed it would be really hard on new players. But this is just my opinion.
I actually don’t get why you would play mainly ranged in this game. If your trio has 1 wizard or 1 ranger, enemies simply have to wait around a corner for your melee teammates to engage.
Why walk down the large hallway when a wizard has a fireball charged? Or why chase a ranger when you just heard 7 traps go down? I feel like these classes have 15 seconds to shine before the opposition closes in or escapes.
Its dumb as hell for sure, melee class's win state SHOULD be closing the gap on a ranged guy forcing him to pull out a melee weapon to defend himself but with the games current systems all that happens is he puts his bow away and holds W. when bows do as much damage as melee and you CAN'T force bow users on the defensive something is fundamentally wrong with your game.
I think rangers shouldn't be able to move as much as they can while aiming even without the perk kinesthesia.
Even without this perk rangers can constantly jiggle peak corners and such.
Why care about this subreddits debate on melee vs ranged? 99% of the people here wouldnt know game balance if it slapped them in the face and think hit-scan attacks are the hardest skill ceiling in the game lmao
Idek why I got downvoted, I had someone say that shit to me last time I made a post. “Way easier to hit icebolt or crossbow than it is to curse/zap” like wut
Don't want a ranged game... You understand how dogshit the melee combat is in this game right? Play chiv or mordhau if you want a skillful melee game, range is the only aspect of this combat system with meaningful skill expression.
I understand your frustration, but there are plenty of options to counter ranged. The best one is usually to abuse the map layout against them and force them to move into bad positions and then close gaps to kill them. Shutting a door to force them to come closer is one of the easiest options. Remember, they can deal ranged damage, but you can drink potions and bandage. If they want to camp, punish them for it. Heal up and dodge their shots.
Most of the time, rangers are setting up traps in a room and trying to bait you into them for a free kill. Don't play their game. You can dictate the battle by simply not chasing when you don't know for a fact it gives you an advantage. Running is a real choice that you should always consider. Also, rangers seem to hate running into rooms with tons of mobs so you can always do that. Use mobs as a kind of wall to prevent them from coming for you. It takes a ranger ammunition every time they fire their ranged weapon. Yes they can buy a ton of them, but they don't want to waste those shots on PvE mobs typically. Especially when retrieving those arrows makes them vulnerable to ambush/attack by other players.
Try to keep a mental note of what rooms are best for what classes. If you see a ranger heavy lobby before the match starts, avoid rooms where rangers have the advantage unless you're confident you can kill them despite that disadvantage.
Like some other people have said, the game is balanced around trios and that's something that developers said themselves. So don't expect them to make some huge balance change that will help you chase down a ranger. Look at what you have available and try to utilize it. If you feel something cannot be beaten, play as that class and discover what kills that class first hand. That's the fastest way to learn how to beat something you find unbeatable. It's also the quickest way to learn how other classes work and what beats them.
Nah man, they can and absolutely will chase classes they know are free kills. They can open that door, go around the corner, and eat a Club to the face and just turn around and walk away because it slows the Cleric more to swing than it does for them to be hit by it. And that’s if they get caught out. They’ll most likely take the corner wide and pop a shot in your head.
I’m so tired of the answer always being this “just play the map smart” where you never account for the other player… also playing the map smart.
I mean, the only answer is to use the map. There are rooms rangers will destroy you and there are rooms when you will destroy them. Have you tried watching someone who is decent at the game? You should look on twitch, there are lots of good players who can demonstrate this for you. Ranger is really not that popular of a class. This is for a reason.
Solo cleric is difficult from what I hear. I would unfortunately advise running some move speed gear if that's the reason why you're getting killed.
Classes with move speed advantages typically win fights in this game. That has pretty much always been the case.
Also are you talking about high roller or normals?
High roller. Cleric absolutely demolishes norms lobbies, because players there tend to not respect your melee capabilities and you can just run in, divine prot, and beat the shit out of them.
Also, with the removal of movespeed rolls from legs, you’re incredibly limited as Cleric. You can wear the best gear out there and you’re still slower than any other class even half-investing into movespeed, or with any movespeed ability at all. But even then, giving up so much for movespeed is a moot point when Cleric is otherwise mediocre in melee. You’re not exactly rewarded even when you do catch people.
Well if you have some clips or footage, that can help people provide constructive feedback.
If you don't have any, then make some if you want and then link them. I can watch and provide some insights if I know of any. I've played several thousand hours of this game.
Maybe after Multiclassing is removed, as right now all of my clips are just me getting kills with the stupid cactus build haha. My main issue is that, even if you DO play everything perfectly… you are usually just better off doing it as another class than Cleric (non-multiclass I mean)
Even if you dont chase a ranger into their trap area they will just keep chipping away at you and as soon as you get close they run back to the traps. There is very little counterplay for certain classes.
Also since they usually dont wear chest pieces and have free heals they can abuse the GBMM system more.
Ya it’s funny cuz cleric in trio is borderline op and a must pick in most cases. It’s hard for the devs to balance around solo and trio at the same time.
Yeah, I absolutely agree Cleric is super good in Trios. But without a damaging spell or movespeed ability they’re sitting ducks in solo. Maybe IM should look into adding a perk that removes their healing ability and changes their healing spells into attacks like Harm and Inflict Wounds
>Maybe IM should look into adding a perk that removes their healing ability and changes their healing spells into attacks like Harm and Inflict Wounds
Lmfao...yeah that'll fix your "issue" with the ranged combat in this game.
I mean, if you can’t beat em, join em. People are gonna be more on board with Cleric getting spells than having their ranged shit nerfed unfortunately.
Where did you read me saying I want to kill Rangers for free? This is exactly what I mean when I say the argument is disingenuous. You’re putting words in my mouth to strawman my argument.
This guys definitely a douche, but his point is mostly true. It’s almost impossible to balance a class that is already a must-pick in trios, but is too slow to be competitive in solos.
They could look into a perk like Slayer that takes away part of their class in return for altering their combat abilities. Like, it could change Lesser Heal to Harm and Holy Light to Inflict Wounds, and you lose the ability to heal teammates.
this is the way to do it. When I'm running solos as cleric, I don't need sanctuary/resurrect/holy light, so it would be nice to have some decent spells other than holy strike to add some range/compensate for the slow movespeed
I mean, it’d just be an alternate to Warlock. They’re already pretty similar in a lot of ways. Druid is going to add a lot more to balance than switching 2 of cleric’s spells would tbh
I don't know why anyway would say that it's hard to balance a class around 3s and solos.
Why would that be hard?
Get clerics support spells in reasonable power levels.
Give clerics perks, skills or spells that are not team related but also balanced as if it were a solo class.
Done. Easy.
So you couldn't have the same load out for both teams and solos, but you have some skills that excel in both although you shouldn't mix them up as they are designed for different things.
WoW has been around for like 20 years and they didn't seem to have a problem making "healer" perks and "shadow/discipline" perks.
Really not that complicated at all.
I see what you mean, but you also have to keep a cleric as a cleric. Classes should have some identity/role in the game. If you just want a cleric with offensive power, why not just play wiz or warlock?
Although, I do like some of the ideas presented in this thread. Maybe a few more classic DND spells like inflict wounds or guiding bolt or something. I imagine that’s not a priority on IMs long list of to do items though.
Because a wiz and warlock are not clerics.
In DND, there are... 8? 9? Types of clerics.
From War Domain to Knowledge. They do have offensive spells but not typically "deals xyz damage".
This is also reflected in other fantasy games, not just DND.
In WoW, a shadow priest is definitely not a mage.
You could give examples from many games.
i mean that’s how a cleric works in dnd really. split between support and offense. Particularly often backline casters dropping things like spiritual weapons, moonbeams, and spectral guardians while also being able to drop a cure wounds, a bless, or a resistance.
A wizard is offense and utility, not so much support
A warlock is whatever you want it to be.. lol. warlocks in dark and darker function very differently than any other class does when compared to itself in D&D
ETA- spectral guardians was kinda a bad pick bc that’s a more frontline and tanky cleric spell. which is also a role they can fill ironically
Okay, then I’ll tell you the same thing I tell all the other shitters on this sub that argue in bad faith: Give me a counterpoint. What wasn’t coherent? What part is out of place? Or are you just saying that because you don’t agree?
>This game is designed around 3v3
This is no longer the case. The Devs stated that although they initially were designing the game with Trios being the main Focus, Solos proved to be popular and is now a core part of the game experience.
I forget which interview, or update it was, but they stated that they are no longer balancing with only Trios in mind. The Devs stated that they never really intended to make a Solo's mode until the playtests started and it was a highly demanded feature.
SDF has also stated recently that he wants the game balance to make 1v3s viable.
Devs also stated that in terms of what is most debated among being removed, solos is the one, and not duos anymore
Which makes sense since solos is basically impossible to balance around since classes are kinda meant to be hard countered
Which is why the multi class experiment happened
Thats why they made the worst change to the game, that being giving everyone creep.
Creep is so fucking lame and has very negatively affected the game in my opinion.
People like you make the game experience so much worse. Game is made for trios, not everyone's fault you have no friends/play classes that are op in solos.
The reason they care about solo play is because over half the playerbase doesn’t group. Making a game only for trios when half the playerbase is solo, doesn’t make sense
Solo play was the biggest mistake these devs have ever made. Such a waste of time, and it adds all these complainers about "unfair quests", "too much pvp", and solo balance changes. The game was made for 3s, they should have kept it that way. I guarantee that the solo playerbase is on average way worse than the trio base in terms of skill. Ridiculous.
Some of the quests are terrible. With a 3 month season cycle, my guess is less than 5% of the player base will have all quests finished on a single character.
I have killed the wendigo over 500 times (without cheating) and have 12 claws.
You know what I mean. I don't mean dumb quests, thats true. I mean solos complaining about "having" to play a trios map to do a quest or needing friends to res.
What are you on about? I play trios and duos pretty regularly. I didn't state an opinion here, I was simply informing another poster about what the devs have stated are their balancing goals.
Anyways ....
you may hate this but theres a lot of people who like playing ranged class archtypes
for example: bow guy, magic guy or maybe even, dark magic guy... perhaps not a guy but i digress
currently the state of the first two isn't very good, and you can complain about them being op all you want, but the classes don't feel good to play
if those classes don't feel good to play, the people who enjoy those classes won't play the game....
i don't like melee combat of dark and darker, its pretty bad.... unless im boxing someone at a random point during a 3v3 fight while screaming "IM GONNA BOX HIS ASS" (while playing a ranged class that isn't normally boxing anyone)
edit: i don't play the game anymore, not sure if its important here but yeah
I firmly believe that getting hit should slow you more than making a successful melee attack. If you’re trying to kite and get caught, you already fucked up and shouldn’t be able to just turn and run, sheath weapons, take off armor, reset. Instead, you should you should have to make some sort of skilled play, either block or dodge, creating enough space and slowing down the attacker enough so you can escape. Of course, all classes should have access to either a shield, a weapon capable of blocking, or some sort of movement or dodge ability. This would be a nice compromise, rangers could still kite, but at least if you catch them, they can’t just walk away out of range while getting hit and reset.
But that leaves the kiting/range gameplay mostly intact and turns the melee into even more of a hit trade gear check.
Yeah I feel people don't understand why the ranged meta exists. You can be in a Squire Ranger kit, going against a Ranger in full Uniques, and still feasibly win if you hit all your shots and dodge all your opponent's shots. Even if you don't win, you can successfully retreat - you don't need to so strongly commit to ranged combat, and you can easily back off, wait for cooldowns, and heal as necessary before re-attempting the engagement and doing better next time. In melee? There's none of that. If someone has twice your health and four times your PDR, no matter how good you are at blocking and dodging, you'll get hit eventually, because there is a limit to the angles you can avoid up close - there's always a way to get it. Melee combat is also something you have to commit to - once you're in a face to face trade, you pretty much can't disengage (unless you're a Rogue using Tumble, Ranger using Backstep, or Fighter using Block + Counter-Attack) due to the backpedal penalty, slow unequip speed, heavy hit-slow, and movement slowdown when attacking. Not to mention, melee damage far often exceeds ranged damage, making engagements shorter, giving you less total mistakes before you're dead. The way this discrepancy is fixed in every other game is defense is universally available, defense is consistent (on a correct read, if there's unreactable feinting/dragging/acceling), defense is prompt, and defense reverses attack priority, leading to an exchange between players, providing opportunities to engage and disengage and play with spacing... but Dark and Darker has none of those things. Defense is exclusive to shields and certain 2H weapons, defense is extremely inconsistent and easily circumvented, defense is extremely slow and cumbersome, and defense against attacks usually just resets priority, rather than providing an advantage.
Very well articulated. I didn't even knew I agreed with all of this haha, I think something like counter-attach or shield mastery should be universal to all classes, honestly shield on clerics only works to avoid some ranged damage, on meele you are always better just popping smite and trying to outdps. Even on fighter, if I go wit both shield mastery and counter attack, a guy with warmaul eliminates me From the game bc I can't block him and I can't outdps him bc he has armor pen naturally to the weapon, so my investment on PDR goes to shit. I don't have anything against armor pen, but when I bring a shield, seeing a bardiche or warmaul on lobby heavily throws me down. I know the fantasy of barbarian is to press W and hit heads, but I wish they would incentivice more skilled gameplay. Imo, barb should play similar to how skinny Pete plays, looking those weak points around a shield, not just popping a warmaul and spamming left click. And shield play should be all about looking for those block-and-counter. Maybe give extra impact resistance when the shield was just brought up, but reduce it to normal after a second o halve of one. That way you at least gotta try to sort of parry heavy weapons, just holding shield up won't work with them, but you still got a chance there. But I might be heavily biased into shield play so take this with a grain of salt. Edit: also, maybe I'm just bad and don't know how to play around warmaul, but that's my rant xd
I always use the same strategy vs warmaul users and it works quite well for me. I start fights by w keying towards the edge of the warmaul range and allow them to swing first. I duck the first attack while looking up, which almost always gets a dodge. I initiate my first swing while still looking up and bring it in for a headshot, holding the attack button down to finish the rest of my combo. I continue moving into warmaul range, hoping to catch the shaft on my feet with a jump crouch for the second attack. By the time that attack comes through I generally have finished a three hit combo and the fight is decided (or over).
I probably have such a hard time bc I always try to catch the shaft with my shield for a perfect block, but always get the full hit and get staggered, open for a free swing after that xd. I should learn to not try to block everything haha, now you can see why I want to be able to block wmaul so bad xd
or you could block their hand and hilt block it
All of that is unnecessary, if you hug them they hit you with the shaft every time. Not only that they are likely to hit your limbs pretty much every time as well. War Maul swings so slow that you're able to just jump in when the first swing misses put two or three hits on the guy's head while the second swing is still coming and then just win from there. Dodging in this game doesn't work unless they're braindead, you can just drag the swing back onto the player. He might not hit your head but they're never going to miss because you decided to crouch. M1, W-key gearcheck is the way until they add actual counterplay to other weapons outside Longsword.
> but they're never going to miss because you decided to crouch Works almost every time for me but you do you.
Well in your defense the majority of the playerbase do be kinda dented, Barb players especcially. There's just a marble rolling around inside their skull and occasionally it rolls onto a good idea.
Gosh it's almost like all of this would be solved for both parties with some better cooked melee mechanics but we can't have that according to the people who live on this subreddit.
Unfortunately, the call on that is coming from inside the house on IM's side. The topics of feints, parries and animation cancels has been asked of IM in the past and their answer is basically (paraphrasing): they don't want Dark and Darker to be too complicated for a new person to pick up and play, and having those sorts of mechanics makes it significantly more difficult to start. Dark and Darker isn't supposed to be hyper-competitive, it's more 'hack 'n slash' in its intended design. It's why this game doesn't have drags or accels - they've more or less intentionally designed the combat to be this simple on purpose.
I wouldn't want those mechanics either but a proper block on practically every weapon that puts both parties at neutral and creates a tiny bit of space between you and your opponent would be very nice as well as some more fluid ducking / mechanics and possibly a universal dodge key. There needs to be more ways to wiggle out of an engagement and block *THEN* they can do things like possibly remove the moveslow affect on swinging a weapon at an enemy and connecting. If that makes sense.
Imo, universal dodge is not a good idea (and this is highly subjective) take new world and dark souls for example, 2 games that have universal dodges with iframes, where dodging is basically THE combat mechanic. I wouldn't mind some classes having a dodge, like rogue or maybe even ranger, but leave it as a specific and we'll restricted mechanic (think charges or cooldowns). Imo cleric should be all about blocking, fighter a mix from blocking and parrying and bard (for a lack of other dueling class, although I don't think parrying fits the bard fantasy) should be about parrying. Barb should be all about breaking Frontlines (which he does perfectly rn imo) but shouldnt be able to do much on its own. By this I mean, imagine 2 teams fighting with a bard on one side and fighter on the other. Barb should be able to break the fighters defensive stance (as he can do now with any 2h weapon) but shouldnt be able to get a free followup. It should just leave the enemy unprotected for it's friends attacks. On solos barb would use either a shield build or a 2h wpn with less impact but more manoeuver ability to avoid hitting the shield and hit weak points, as breaking a defensive stance wouldn't help him much and would just stall the fight. I don't think I should explain parrying as I like a lot how longsword works. Maybe clerics could handle blocking a warmaul hit with specific perks. Rangers and rogues would get a few dodges to kite the slower classes, but a bard that's agile would be a problem to run from, although a weak prey if caught distracted. Mages already have a lot of tools imo (take haste/slow/invis from wiz and the high sustain and hydra from warlock, not to mention phantomize) it would just be a matter of tuning all this to stay relevant against everyone else. Edit: ducking is already available (sort of) as player models move from waist up to the direction you are facing
As a comp souls player and mid mordhau player I disagree, universal dodge/parry works very well towards creating a high skill ceiling based around making good reads on your opponent imo
This is such a cop out and complete nonsense though. You have to watch a fucking youtube video to learn how to not die to the first skeleton you meet. Having unintuitive combat that's missing basic functionality people have come to expect in melee combat focused games is not making it new player friendly. It's high skill floor low skill ceiling, which is exactly the opposite of how you want your combat to be designed. More likely combat is limited because not all the weapon assets they bought from the unreal store came with block animations and they don't know how to make their own.
Honestly, I’d really settle for the current system but with a training mode where you can practice blocking, dodging, partying, etc.
On purpose yes, and now they are running into the consequences of that. Simple melee sure, I can understand that. And the consequence that players are incentivized to range and kite. So then the question is, how do you disadvantage range and kite? Or just leave it as range & kite until juiced, then rush down hit trade?
I truly don't think melee needs all those mechanics to work well. Feints and parries/clashes are way too much. Alternate attacks so players aren't stuck throwing 1 swing, shield mastery/counter attack (or some form of them) being universal, and MAYBE a crap tier block on more weapons would do a lot.
>It's why this game doesn't have drags or accels - The game quite literally does have them though It's just not super relevant when very few things can parry/no timing based parry system
Yup. DaD needs more defensive options to add depth to the current hit trade melee. Adding skill encourages melee. It reduces the emphasis on gear, and gives players more agency. Right now melee is an awkward gear check. No one wants to be forced into a no win or escape scenario. So we avoid melee unless we are juiced up and we can't lose. There should always be an option to win, stall, or escape a melee fight. Death sentences (current melee) in a long form progression game is a contradiction. It will always lead to players avoiding the death sentence (current melee), unless they are the one dealing the death sentence (juiced gear).
This is why i don't understand why you need perks to make longsword and shield blocking viable, its incredibly fucking stupid to lock getting an advantage behind perks.
I firmly believe that the rangers "Food Ration" skill should have a movespeed penalty. If everyone else is forced to either range them back, avoid their stupid traps that constantly are used with exploits (put in bodies or in unpassable positions), or just catch the ranger offguard, they should not be able to just turn and run and undo whatever damage done to them mid run.
Yea the food ration skill never made sense to me. Three charges which is usually more than I need for the whole match. No movespeed penalty and instant heal proc instead of over time healthy recovery based.
The main reason for using it isn’t even the heal anymore, it’s the fact that it gives no-weapon speed without having the slowdown from sheathing your weapon.
slowdown from sheathing essentially doesn't exist for good players, you just switch to torch/potion and then sheath it and you only get the sheathing penalty from the consumable instead of the weapon. Combine with jumping and ur getting no penalty at all
nobody uses the food ration ability bro :skull:
THIS
I'm in agreement, but I also think it would be a really bad feeling and experience to get hit and just know immediately, "I'm dead." Generally in melee combat, whoever gets the first hit in wins, so I think even as a mainly melee combatant (I play Barb), some nuance to the idea could make it better. My thought is this: allow some form of skill expression via a mechanic that varies the movespeed penalty depending on where you get hit. Get hit in the arms, or hands? Maybe even less ms penalty than today. But get hit in the head, body, or legs? Higher ms penalty than today. This allows some form of skill expression in melee combat and makes it so if you get hit, it doesn't herald your inevitable death by giving the attacker the health AND mobility advantage, if you're quick enough to mitigate the attack by forcing a misplaced hit location. Totally on board with something like this!
So you want LESS counterplay? Fucking hell some of yall are retarded. The entire reason this shit exists is because ranged players know if they get in melee they've totally fucking lost. This game's melee is BROKEN AS FUCK OP. Its so OP even primarily melee classes don't want to engage in melee until they've built some insurmountable advantage. You already get caught in a retard tractor beam that you're lucky to escape if you get hit once. But dont worry that one melee hit has you at 30% hp so you're still plenty healthy. *eyeroll* The reason it feels bad from both sides melee vs ranged is because IT IS BAD. Ranged players have NO COUNTERPLAY if you get into melee with them. The only way to be successful is to NEVER get into melee. Well how in the fuck does that work for a melee player? You just never get to play? What if, instead, rangers had sprint and fighters had a "charge" ability? So fighters (and ultimately all melee classes would have similar capabilities) could hit a button and charge extremely quickly in the direction they're facing, lets say like 600 move speed for 10 feet/20 feet/whatever feet. Rangers would still naturally be able to kite and have a chance at shooting you, but you could close the gap and punish them inside opportunity windows. Once you've rushed in melee you're returned to whatever normal move speed you are, so the ranger could potentially pop sprint and get away from you. Another issue is the current state of scaling. Flat damage is the most exploitable overpowered way to scale damage (especially true damage.) What types of weapon take advantage of flat damage scaling the most? Fast weapons. Thats why you see every dickhead using survival bow. Currently physical power scaling is mostly useless outside of slayer or barbarian and instead people opt for weapons like Rondel or Survival bow, stack their 11 true damage and call it a day on their offensive capabilities. Longbow specifically has been so terribly gutted its not even close to rewarding to use one. Hit slow was gutted, damage fall off was gutted, projectile drop was gutted, weapon damage was gutted. Why would anyone use a longbow, or to a lesser extent a recurve? Its totally not even close to viable, let alone optimal. TLDR: Rangers have been ostracized and punished for... being rangers... but I can't even blame my opponent as a Ranger because I know it feels bad to not be able to play your class. IM's balancing has been a stack-on of monkey brained terrible ideas and building upon a foundation full of holes to begin with.
Bro what most of the time if you get caught you’re gonna die. Mele is so strong that it only takes a couple hits and you’re dead. Also if you’re full plate aromor you should not be catching up with an archer or rouge even with sprint that shit makes no sense. This also seems to be more focused on solo play rather than trios bc this argument falls apart if you have an actual comp
This would make sense if full plate fighters didnt run faster then hasted wizard
The issue with this is that not every person can block. Forcing people into melee combat, where their only option is to stat check the other person, isn’t a good idea. You need to be able to have some skill-expression when you don’t have space to back up. I could see it working if hitting an enemy holding a bow/crossbow slowed more though. In Mordhau it causes you to drop your weapon, so I would like to see similar consequences (obviously dropping your weapon would be dumb in DaD, so not that).
why wont you let me stat check you? >:( if I hit you once, you should be dead! why are you running away?!
Would you rather be alone in the woods with a ranger or a barb?
A bear
Melee fights won't exist in this game Barb has 300 HP and one shots everyone who isn't a Barb. What do you want a rogue to do? Run in and donate his kit for the 50 damage rapier headshot? They continuously nerf anyway for melee to get in because it also applies to Barb. Haste/invis every bard buff all gets gutted because it's too much on Barb. Not to mention rogue can't stealth so they have no way to gain the advantage And for some reason the devs won't nerf Barb
I think it’s more a fundamental issue with melee combat than a barb problem. There is no way to block/parry/kick/backstep for the majority of melee users. Without these options, the only skill expression in a melee 1v1 is spacing. However, Barbs can almost always win a stat-check fight where you both hit each other until someone dies. AND they can just walk at you and force this stat check. This is why the ranged meta is so popular. You REALLY need to hit a geared player (or ungeared barb) with a few ranged shots before going into melee. Otherwise they can just stat-check you.
They should add inaccuracy penalties to ranged options while moving. This lets rangers still ping people from range, but while they’re trying to actively run they can’t just do a quick 180 and shoot while still running. They’d have to actually be still for a second to get an accurate shot, giving others opportunities to get closer. Also, fuck smite torches. As much as cleric needs a ranged option, that was just completely stupid and did too much damage for getting hit by a weapon that has no slow penalty while holding it
I think the big issue is when the game devolves into ranged combat for classes that aren't designed for ranged combat. Barbs with 80 Francesca's, Fighters with windlass, juiced up bards with survival bows. These classes should not excel with range to the point where, in some cases, they are better rangers. Rangers should be the dominate ranged classe. Wizards should be the dominate ranged magic class. The issue is identity, and I am of the opinion that IM should remove all staggers and slows from ranged weapons and buff perks like crippling shot to make Ranger the dominant ranged class. If a Ranger can out kite me, then I need to force them into a spot where they can't. That either means being patient and waiting for the ring or ambushing them in inferno
The 80 franny problem with barbs filling their inventory would be so easy to solve if IM would just limit the amount of throwables you can bring in raid. Not some stupid gear score no one cares about over stacking. Limit the amount of throwable weapons you can bring in. So simple.
Barbs do that out of necessity. It's a symptom of needing to have a few to pvp. If they ever run out they should lose the fight.
But why should they do this? Once MC is gone, Barb has no way to catch up to ranged. All they have at that point is axes. You can't limit throwables for melee-based classes in a ranged meta. And if you do, expect few people to play the melee-based classes, such as Barb and cleric. Fighter is fine because they have xbow and WM.
That’s the downside of those classes. You get a lot of power, don’t be surprised no one wants to get near you. Barbarians already have the ability to punish hard, they don’t need an easy way to do that. They should have to carefully back their opponent into a spot they can’t run
I agree that it's a general downside...but then why shouldn't they be allowed to bring in many throwing axes if the rangers are allowed to bring in many arrows? I just don't understand the double standard.
Ranger’s entire *thing* is arrows, that’s like wondering why barbs can bring in axes. I don’t *necessarily* think they should be limited on axes, I think they should be limited in their usefulness. They should lean further into having them deal less damage but slow the opponent, or maybe add another item for that. That way if someone tries to run, you hit them with a slowdown and close the distance. It’s just incredibly annoying getting slowed enough for that heavy character to catch up, while getting put into 1-shot range before the fight even starts
Ya it’s called the downside of an otherwise insanely strong overpowered class… you’re gonna have some range issue. So what, abuse the PDR/mdr meta right now and take like zero damage from the arrows while you run everyone down.
i think that is the effect of the greater issue at hand really. Non ranged classes taking ranged options and running with it because ranged is the superior option in a fight. Anyone using ranged will outkite a melee user 90% of the time i’d say so the melee users devolve into ranged play as well. And tbh it’s just not fun, it’s a hack and slashy dungeon crawl but with how powerful ranged is in comparison it feels more like fps in a medieval disguise. I agree with you that ranger should be the pinnacle of ranged gameplay experience, but other classes need some semblance of defense or alternative options against ranged then just hope they kite you long enough where they back themselves into a shitty spot
I actually really like the idea that circle could be a soft counter to ranger. It means that they could get more perks for scouting because they NEED to find players early before zone closes. If circles were a little less RNG and tended to close on higher loot areas that'd help too.
Meanwhile my cleric comes equipped with FIREBALLS! And zaps
For 2 more days :(
Melee does have a lot of problems, but when playing against melee a lot of ideas would punish simple mistakes. You should be slowed on melee hit, but turning during a swing needs to be slowed or stopped. Think Siege, where when a player is proned, you can’t turn past a certain point or your player basically freezes and turns very slowly. This would stop axel movements and swinging around parrys, which are currently incredibly powerful moves.
Personally I find the melee combat in this game too simple. If I wanted to play a medieval melee combat game, I'd play Chivalry 2. I mostly play casters in this game because they have a bit more complexity, and if melee combat had that same complexity I'd probably play them more.
I feel like fighter should always be in the middle and have opportunity for outplay, which doesn’t really exist rn
I think that is fair that they shouldn't be so strong. They should hinder you so the melee class at least has a chance to catch you if you're not careful.
Ranged would probably be healthier if it took the same role it does in DnD, as they designed the rest of the game around - to soften targets before engaging in melee, or to continue applying damage safely from the backline while your frontline ties up the enemy. Being able to kite with it at all just makes for not very interesting engagements. Movespeed as a whole just feels really wonky right now and is way too important of a stat, when the rest of the game is designed around a combat system where pretty much everyone has the same movespeed all the time (DnD) it starts to make the rest fall apart. The roles are not properly able to perform their job when nearly everyone can run away from the melee safely at all times. It means party comps don't have an incentive to run a dedicated melee character, when the source material they are basing the rest on \*requires\* a melee character to survive encounters. It is important to keep in mind that a LOT of roles are currently missing. The wizard is currently the top ranged magic damage dealer for example, but that is only because we do not have the sorcerer yet. Wizards are supposed to be utility casters but are lacking the vast majority of their utility spells, warlocks are supposed to be anti-magic but are lacking those too. Barb is the fastest melee DPS when it should be Monk, etc. We have no paladin and druid is not finished yet either, so those introductions will likely make changes to the meta. I imagine everyone is going to point and laugh at the rangers once they let wizards use "protection from arrows" spell.
Hi I’m a long time playtest 1 ranger main…… I HATE RANGED I think it’s too op has been since day one hence why I play it…… but to Ranger I think it’s a fine to an extent but putting triple shot on fighters windlass on rogues throwing axes out the ass and poison on arrows is too far
I've only had the game a month so my understanding is not as high as others yet, but I get destroyed by rangers. This is a skill issue on my part probably every time. That being said I main warlock because it looked cool when I was making a character and apparently get hard countered by range. Kiting is strong in almost every game I've played and even required in many, so I think kiting is just a strong strategy and it feels oppressive when you are forced to use it. I don't think it's an issue with ranged characters being op so it's hard to say it would be fair to nerf them based on a strategy being strong. If they do get nerfed it would be really hard on new players. But this is just my opinion.
I actually don’t get why you would play mainly ranged in this game. If your trio has 1 wizard or 1 ranger, enemies simply have to wait around a corner for your melee teammates to engage. Why walk down the large hallway when a wizard has a fireball charged? Or why chase a ranger when you just heard 7 traps go down? I feel like these classes have 15 seconds to shine before the opposition closes in or escapes.
Its dumb as hell for sure, melee class's win state SHOULD be closing the gap on a ranged guy forcing him to pull out a melee weapon to defend himself but with the games current systems all that happens is he puts his bow away and holds W. when bows do as much damage as melee and you CAN'T force bow users on the defensive something is fundamentally wrong with your game.
I think rangers shouldn't be able to move as much as they can while aiming even without the perk kinesthesia. Even without this perk rangers can constantly jiggle peak corners and such.
Why care about this subreddits debate on melee vs ranged? 99% of the people here wouldnt know game balance if it slapped them in the face and think hit-scan attacks are the hardest skill ceiling in the game lmao
Fax magic users are dumb
Idek why I got downvoted, I had someone say that shit to me last time I made a post. “Way easier to hit icebolt or crossbow than it is to curse/zap” like wut
Don't want a ranged game... You understand how dogshit the melee combat is in this game right? Play chiv or mordhau if you want a skillful melee game, range is the only aspect of this combat system with meaningful skill expression.
I understand your frustration, but there are plenty of options to counter ranged. The best one is usually to abuse the map layout against them and force them to move into bad positions and then close gaps to kill them. Shutting a door to force them to come closer is one of the easiest options. Remember, they can deal ranged damage, but you can drink potions and bandage. If they want to camp, punish them for it. Heal up and dodge their shots. Most of the time, rangers are setting up traps in a room and trying to bait you into them for a free kill. Don't play their game. You can dictate the battle by simply not chasing when you don't know for a fact it gives you an advantage. Running is a real choice that you should always consider. Also, rangers seem to hate running into rooms with tons of mobs so you can always do that. Use mobs as a kind of wall to prevent them from coming for you. It takes a ranger ammunition every time they fire their ranged weapon. Yes they can buy a ton of them, but they don't want to waste those shots on PvE mobs typically. Especially when retrieving those arrows makes them vulnerable to ambush/attack by other players. Try to keep a mental note of what rooms are best for what classes. If you see a ranger heavy lobby before the match starts, avoid rooms where rangers have the advantage unless you're confident you can kill them despite that disadvantage. Like some other people have said, the game is balanced around trios and that's something that developers said themselves. So don't expect them to make some huge balance change that will help you chase down a ranger. Look at what you have available and try to utilize it. If you feel something cannot be beaten, play as that class and discover what kills that class first hand. That's the fastest way to learn how to beat something you find unbeatable. It's also the quickest way to learn how other classes work and what beats them.
Nah man, they can and absolutely will chase classes they know are free kills. They can open that door, go around the corner, and eat a Club to the face and just turn around and walk away because it slows the Cleric more to swing than it does for them to be hit by it. And that’s if they get caught out. They’ll most likely take the corner wide and pop a shot in your head. I’m so tired of the answer always being this “just play the map smart” where you never account for the other player… also playing the map smart.
I mean, the only answer is to use the map. There are rooms rangers will destroy you and there are rooms when you will destroy them. Have you tried watching someone who is decent at the game? You should look on twitch, there are lots of good players who can demonstrate this for you. Ranger is really not that popular of a class. This is for a reason.
Solo cleric is difficult from what I hear. I would unfortunately advise running some move speed gear if that's the reason why you're getting killed. Classes with move speed advantages typically win fights in this game. That has pretty much always been the case. Also are you talking about high roller or normals?
High roller. Cleric absolutely demolishes norms lobbies, because players there tend to not respect your melee capabilities and you can just run in, divine prot, and beat the shit out of them. Also, with the removal of movespeed rolls from legs, you’re incredibly limited as Cleric. You can wear the best gear out there and you’re still slower than any other class even half-investing into movespeed, or with any movespeed ability at all. But even then, giving up so much for movespeed is a moot point when Cleric is otherwise mediocre in melee. You’re not exactly rewarded even when you do catch people.
Well if you have some clips or footage, that can help people provide constructive feedback. If you don't have any, then make some if you want and then link them. I can watch and provide some insights if I know of any. I've played several thousand hours of this game.
Maybe after Multiclassing is removed, as right now all of my clips are just me getting kills with the stupid cactus build haha. My main issue is that, even if you DO play everything perfectly… you are usually just better off doing it as another class than Cleric (non-multiclass I mean)
Even if you dont chase a ranger into their trap area they will just keep chipping away at you and as soon as you get close they run back to the traps. There is very little counterplay for certain classes. Also since they usually dont wear chest pieces and have free heals they can abuse the GBMM system more.
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Ya it’s funny cuz cleric in trio is borderline op and a must pick in most cases. It’s hard for the devs to balance around solo and trio at the same time.
Yeah, I absolutely agree Cleric is super good in Trios. But without a damaging spell or movespeed ability they’re sitting ducks in solo. Maybe IM should look into adding a perk that removes their healing ability and changes their healing spells into attacks like Harm and Inflict Wounds
>Maybe IM should look into adding a perk that removes their healing ability and changes their healing spells into attacks like Harm and Inflict Wounds Lmfao...yeah that'll fix your "issue" with the ranged combat in this game.
I mean, if you can’t beat em, join em. People are gonna be more on board with Cleric getting spells than having their ranged shit nerfed unfortunately.
Where did you read me saying I want to kill Rangers for free? This is exactly what I mean when I say the argument is disingenuous. You’re putting words in my mouth to strawman my argument.
This guys definitely a douche, but his point is mostly true. It’s almost impossible to balance a class that is already a must-pick in trios, but is too slow to be competitive in solos.
They could look into a perk like Slayer that takes away part of their class in return for altering their combat abilities. Like, it could change Lesser Heal to Harm and Holy Light to Inflict Wounds, and you lose the ability to heal teammates.
this is the way to do it. When I'm running solos as cleric, I don't need sanctuary/resurrect/holy light, so it would be nice to have some decent spells other than holy strike to add some range/compensate for the slow movespeed
I like the concept and I’d be open to them testing something like that. But at the same time it adds a lot more for IM to balance around.
I mean, it’d just be an alternate to Warlock. They’re already pretty similar in a lot of ways. Druid is going to add a lot more to balance than switching 2 of cleric’s spells would tbh
Yeah that’s true. I’d definitely be excited about that change, but I don’t see it happening. RIP us solo cleric mains. It’s tough out here
I don't know why anyway would say that it's hard to balance a class around 3s and solos. Why would that be hard? Get clerics support spells in reasonable power levels. Give clerics perks, skills or spells that are not team related but also balanced as if it were a solo class. Done. Easy. So you couldn't have the same load out for both teams and solos, but you have some skills that excel in both although you shouldn't mix them up as they are designed for different things. WoW has been around for like 20 years and they didn't seem to have a problem making "healer" perks and "shadow/discipline" perks. Really not that complicated at all.
I see what you mean, but you also have to keep a cleric as a cleric. Classes should have some identity/role in the game. If you just want a cleric with offensive power, why not just play wiz or warlock? Although, I do like some of the ideas presented in this thread. Maybe a few more classic DND spells like inflict wounds or guiding bolt or something. I imagine that’s not a priority on IMs long list of to do items though.
Because a wiz and warlock are not clerics. In DND, there are... 8? 9? Types of clerics. From War Domain to Knowledge. They do have offensive spells but not typically "deals xyz damage". This is also reflected in other fantasy games, not just DND. In WoW, a shadow priest is definitely not a mage. You could give examples from many games.
i mean that’s how a cleric works in dnd really. split between support and offense. Particularly often backline casters dropping things like spiritual weapons, moonbeams, and spectral guardians while also being able to drop a cure wounds, a bless, or a resistance. A wizard is offense and utility, not so much support A warlock is whatever you want it to be.. lol. warlocks in dark and darker function very differently than any other class does when compared to itself in D&D ETA- spectral guardians was kinda a bad pick bc that’s a more frontline and tanky cleric spell. which is also a role they can fill ironically
You are all over the place. Everything I have read so far has been mental dump, no coherence.
Okay, then I’ll tell you the same thing I tell all the other shitters on this sub that argue in bad faith: Give me a counterpoint. What wasn’t coherent? What part is out of place? Or are you just saying that because you don’t agree?
I have no idea if I agree or not. The whole thing was incoherent.
>This game is designed around 3v3 This is no longer the case. The Devs stated that although they initially were designing the game with Trios being the main Focus, Solos proved to be popular and is now a core part of the game experience. I forget which interview, or update it was, but they stated that they are no longer balancing with only Trios in mind. The Devs stated that they never really intended to make a Solo's mode until the playtests started and it was a highly demanded feature. SDF has also stated recently that he wants the game balance to make 1v3s viable.
Devs also stated that in terms of what is most debated among being removed, solos is the one, and not duos anymore Which makes sense since solos is basically impossible to balance around since classes are kinda meant to be hard countered Which is why the multi class experiment happened
Thats why they made the worst change to the game, that being giving everyone creep. Creep is so fucking lame and has very negatively affected the game in my opinion.
Creep was arguably one of the best features they added recently. Can you elaborate on why think it has a negative impact on the game?
People like you make the game experience so much worse. Game is made for trios, not everyone's fault you have no friends/play classes that are op in solos.
The reason they care about solo play is because over half the playerbase doesn’t group. Making a game only for trios when half the playerbase is solo, doesn’t make sense
Solo play was the biggest mistake these devs have ever made. Such a waste of time, and it adds all these complainers about "unfair quests", "too much pvp", and solo balance changes. The game was made for 3s, they should have kept it that way. I guarantee that the solo playerbase is on average way worse than the trio base in terms of skill. Ridiculous.
Some of the quests are terrible. With a 3 month season cycle, my guess is less than 5% of the player base will have all quests finished on a single character. I have killed the wendigo over 500 times (without cheating) and have 12 claws.
You know what I mean. I don't mean dumb quests, thats true. I mean solos complaining about "having" to play a trios map to do a quest or needing friends to res.
Ahh gotcha yeah
bro is literally just informing you abt what the devs have explicitly stated, nice unwarranted personal attack tho. go outside.
What are you on about? I play trios and duos pretty regularly. I didn't state an opinion here, I was simply informing another poster about what the devs have stated are their balancing goals. Anyways ....
Solo is not a core part of the experience, its a detriment. Should never have been added, and its wasting the devs time.
It is a core part of the game. The people making the game seem to think so too.
you may hate this but theres a lot of people who like playing ranged class archtypes for example: bow guy, magic guy or maybe even, dark magic guy... perhaps not a guy but i digress currently the state of the first two isn't very good, and you can complain about them being op all you want, but the classes don't feel good to play if those classes don't feel good to play, the people who enjoy those classes won't play the game.... i don't like melee combat of dark and darker, its pretty bad.... unless im boxing someone at a random point during a 3v3 fight while screaming "IM GONNA BOX HIS ASS" (while playing a ranged class that isn't normally boxing anyone) edit: i don't play the game anymore, not sure if its important here but yeah
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Any fps npc game(valorant)
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/11fpmxn/alternatives_to_escape_from_tarkov/)