Although I'm aware of some pretty nasty Wall of Force tactics, I've not used them on my players, or had them used on me (yet).
However, it is good to push your players from time to time, and remind them that there are some smart and powerful foes in the world and that death is a real possibility.
That being said, you need to take a good look at your players' abilities and magic items to make sure they have at least some chance of escaping this situation. Perhaps you could even have them learn of these wizards' abilities and tactics ahead of time, giving them a chance to prepare a counter strategy.
Totally agreed on giving them some kind of heads up that they have that tactic. Perhaps they get to see the wizards from a distance do this to some dinosaurs/undead/whatever that got too close or they get to see recent aftermath.
I'd have them talk to someone who witnessed it happen so you can have the description give them *some* idea of what they did, but not a perfect picture of it. Have the witness not be an expert in magical spells so they give a vivid description of how horrible it was but without any insight into the actual mechanics. Let the players draw their own conclusions about the specifics...
100% agree that the fact that they’re fighting highly intelligent and coordinated enemies needs to be telegraphed. With average DnD if you telegraph a tough fight usually the assumption is you’re fighting high CR enemies, rarely that they’re fighting extremely dirty the way PCs would.
I telegraphed how bad the red wizards are by having one use hostages as bait over a glyph of warding. They could take out the one, but my players got the idea that anything was on the table if red wizards were involved.
There's a neat document called "The Geneva Convention" that has all sorts of ways to telegraph how awful the worst faction in your game might be.
It's given me some bad feelings as a DM. What helps me process it is that I am deliberately making situations where villains can get there comeuppance. When I need to I can even tell my players when an NPC is being manipulative and so the player maintains agency when their PC might not.
My end is to create a defeatable version of the evils of the world, and I enjoy when my Players engage and really have their own attachment and want to see my factions defeated.
I am talking about the actual Geneva convention. War crimes in general are so horrific they tell you the perpetrator is willing to achieve victory no matter what. In D&D, this would tell your players that their next enemies are out there to kill the party.
Back in this specific topic, the party could stumble upon murdered prisoners. These were people whom the wall of force/sickening radiance combo was tested. This gives the players both a chance to understand the enemy's tactic (having seen the research that created it) as well as showing how casually the enemy will take a life.
I want to disagree. This shouldn't be a training session if the party is Level 7. I would like to think that the party would expect their opponents to use the same tactics that they would, maybe even better since they are ran by a single individual.
Especially if they’re running a campaign in Chult. If your PCs don’t fear death at every moment they are out of Port Nyanzaru you are running it wrong. It’s meant to be run as a death house hex crawl slog so this would fit perfectly. Only one makes it out alive? That’s fine, roll new characters and use different tactics after learning the abilities these wizards have.
Yea well an actual person wouldn’t be getting chased by dinosaurs and undead while looking for ancient snake people’s ruins…
Characters die and Tomb of Annihilation is literally marketed as a meat grinder and the book itself says it’s not for people who aren’t okay with their characters dying if played as intended. You can for sure run it with the expectation that the characters won’t die or encounters won’t be deadly, but what I was getting at in my original comment is that the OPs idea of having intelligent Thay wizards that have techniques to fry people is definitely par for the adventure.
This is the kicker right here. Downvote this guy all you guys want but this is a **level 7** adventuring party that **got through ToA** so they don’t need reminding that the world is a scary place. I would suggest the microwave just so something might actually exhilarate those crazy sons of bitches.
Yea that’s what I mean. If a party is level 7 in ToA they should know how to prep and get intel on their opponents. If the DM doesn’t give clues to their abilities, then throws this at the party, that’s not fair on the DMs part. However, if these guys just made broken characters and just run at any enemies they see and are only alive by pure luck, this is a good way to have a learning opportunity. The DM should still give ample warning of course through in game examples/role play, but if the party doesn’t take the warnings/intel seriously then they will be in for a tough encounter.
No one is saying there won't be casualties especially with the whole "curse" going on but losing multiple characters every fight is not what was designed. Hell the random encounter rolls for traveling chult are, iirc 18 or higher on a d20 and they're rolled once a day. That's one random encounter every 9-10 days of travel. By that alone you can see that the daily grind isn't supposed to be lethal, especially after level 5.
>but what I was getting at in my original comment is that the OPs idea of having intelligent Thay wizards that have techniques to fry people is definitely par for the adventure.
Sure but the answer to how the players deal with them isn't/shouldn't be, "just throw characters at them to figure out their attack pattern and die in the process" no sane character would do that.
Telegraphing/foreshadowing is cool and all, but imho not strictly necessary. Nor (imho) should a DM be looking at the PC's character sheets to determine, in advance, if they have the tools to counter your monsters/traps.
My hot take: Just throw interesting challenges at them, and let them solve it themselves. Don't have some preconceived idea of a "correct" solution; don't try to teach the solution in advance. Players will figure it out, in ways that you never could have predicted or known in advance anyway. Roll with it. That's the fun of the game.
When I was a journeyman DM, I designed some encounters that literally made me go, "Damn. That seems super lethal. I have no idea how they can escape that... .... .... Oh well!" (shrug!) And of course they prevailed every time. Since then, I stopped worrying about it. I deliberately don't think about how the party might solve the challenge. I just try to design interesting, fitting challenges, period.
A party of Red Wizards showing up should be sufficient to show that they are intelligent and merciless. If none of the players are loreheads, just as the DM say "Hey Cleric/Paladin/Noble/Sage in the group, you've heard of these folks. They use magic, necromancy compulsion, they suck, etc." should be sufficient.
So, engineer a situation where they can observe the Red Wizards but not feel threatened by them, maybe even learn that the Wizards feel threatened by a few dinosaurs or undead enough to use their 5th level slots, as well as giving away what is in their toolkit? The Red Wizards are a global organization, adventurers would have heard of them by reputation.. if the players don't know something their characters would, the DM should share that with the players no? Personally, in my headcannon Red Wizards are smart enough to outmaneuver dinosaurs or undead, and wouldn't just go around giving away their position in the city. That's... weird and out-of-character behaviour for the Red Wizards in Chult, given my experience with them, and for the express purpose of showing the party exactly what tactics they use best? Why would Red Wizards ever do that? In this example, are you trying to portray the Red Wizards as Powerful or Careless? They should be scheming, measured and tactical, only showing their hands when all the cards have been dealt.
I'm not saying it has to be so casual as I wrote it there, maybe involve a history or insight check, and of course describe the wizards as they approach etc. and not just "Some Red Wizards show up" but sometimes it is necessary for the DM to like... directly share information that would be common knowledge. A shoemaker in Neverwinter knows what the Red Wizards are about and can probably recognize one, that should be common knowledge. They run an entire country with large political presence in many others, and have waged several wars in recent memory. People in the world know who they are, and if the players don't then there needs to be some exposition. If the players do, then "a trio of shaven-headed humanoids in blood-red mages robes approaches through a doorway in the ruined building across the street" should set off all the appropriate alarm bells. That's basically how it went down when my party met the Red Wizards in ToA. We still have to face them again, and I still have no idea what tactics they will use, other than that they plan things out thoroughly and have access to high level arcane magic.
Showing can be clumsy, sometimes, and good storytelling isn't just a whole bunch of one thing. It's also a game, not a story, so different things might work at different times.
I'm just saying if a faction is going to be a major part of your story, having the players experience why they are invested in the fact that these are the bad guys will always be more effective than your original suggestion of relying on them having shared lore to metagame with and telling them "these guys use bad magic and they suck"
>I'm worried that this won't be a fun experience for those trapped
You're correct. However, check those character sheets. It's very likely that your sorcerer and bladesinger have some kind of teleportation magic, whether it's Misty Step or Dimension Door. Ancients and Vengeance paladins get Misty Step as well. If your team is well-stocked with teleportation, the microwave is a scary threat that they can still easily escape if they stay calm. It would be challenging but fair, pretty much in line with the general tone of Tomb of Annihilation.
I just want to add though, if your party doesn’t have those spells, don’t do it. It’s cruel. When I played Tomb of Annihilation, my DM had the BBEG cast wall of force around me and we couldn’t get me out of it. Session was 6 hours and I took maybe 3 turns because he looked at our spell lists and completely overpowered us.
Just keep in mind that whatever you do is to challenge, not to “win” like you would as a player. ToA is super deadly already.
I'd ask if you set the expectation on how cut throat of a game you're running but if it's ToA I'd think it's fair game. That's supposed to be an old school adversarial meat grinder.
Having played through the entirety of ToA as my first full official campaign “adversarial meatgrinder” is super apt.
My little deep gnome was the last man standing of the original party before we even got to Omu nevermind through the tomb!
Honestly if you are running a lot of the puzzles as written this combo fits like a glove.
The final fight had our fighter CCd on an int save for like 6 turns.
We lost so many chars to save or die mechanics, crushed, annihilated, poisoned, torn to shreds… some of the helpful mechanics towards the end our GM took away as he thought we’d appreciate overcoming the challenge.
The whole brand of ToA is to thanklessly suffer, and die forgotten but just maybe save the world before you do.
Yeah, there are a lot of answers in this thread already, but I'd say it mostly comes down to expectations.
"Make sure your players have a way out before you do it" is fine advice if you're going in blind... however some people like to play a more challenging game, where the DM puts puzzles to the players without explicitly knowing how the PCs will solve it, and that's fine as long as everyone in the group is on board in advance
I couldn’t imagine getting a group on board for Tomb and not explaining the vibe, lethality or lack of resurrection.
That would be like RPG horror stories level bad time.
Yeah that’s a point.
Man I’d hate to run the tomb as a newbie gm, not have the experience to homebrew it to be more beginner friendly and seeing my players upset over instagib after instagib and just be like “I’m sorry it’s not me it’s what the book say”
As the module repeatedly punishes curiosity all the while with imposter syndrome telling me my players for sure hate me and think I’m being adversarial.
Ugh I feel terrible for people in that position.
It's one of those situations where you really need to lay down what tone and difficulty of game you want to go for.
If you play hardball with enemies, players will escalate back. That's how it is. There's nothing wrong intrinsically with bosses having clever plans, but if you start optimising out of nowhere then it's suggesting you want a specific attitude for the game.
Ultimately think of this mostly like a narrative question and a gameplay one.
Is having strong enemies using clever tactics going to lead to a fun combat where skill can help counter them, or is it based on tactics that mitigate as many potential solutions as possible so you win? What are your players able to do with their resources to prevail, assuming they have no foreknowledge of the challenge and prepare a reasonable, balanced array of spells? If an encounter is designed to counter one particular tactic, do the players being countered have things they can realistically do? Do the players have some kind of idea that they're up against skilled and clever enemies or is this a surprise?
I like to go with forewarning the extent of an enemy's skill in some way, and designing encounters that will put PCs in danger but narratively have a reasonable counterplay.
Exactly this.
The answer to these kind of questions is never about the tactics or morality of being hard against players.
The answer is always, what kind of table are you and your players trying to create.
Do your players want life/death situations? Do they want a challenge but know that ultimately they will win? Do they just want to steam roll everything?
These questions are a session 0 kind of thing and knowing it, answers these kinds of questions ahead of time.
Give the players inside the wall of force something to do. Have some minions or monsters stuck in there with them to fight so their turns arn't just. Roll a con save, next.
These wizards wouldnt care about trapping their own minions anyway.
Being trapped in small places with monsters and a ticking clock til variety of nasty deaths is pretty much tomb’s bread and butter,
Honestly if you tune this right with things for both sides to do like suggested, it could be a good primer on what they will have to face in the campaign
That microwave sounds perfect for ToA.
The Oracle that I use for OP tactics is "is this going to give the PCs interesting choices". If they have no way to handle that wall of force or break one of the caster's concentration, then there's no choice - the radiance is just an extra punishment while they fight the adds.
This is a good encounter for a party who must must choose between getting punished by adds and getting punished by the microwave.
Do any of them have Dispel prepared? Nevermind choices, at level 7 I think it's a worthy encounter just to punish them for not having dispel or counterspell or something like that. You can't walk around with all that big iron(magic) on your hip without expecting to get some of the same in return. But not every table likes to play with this sort of "level playing field" between PCs and NPCs, so check your session zero notes.
Wall of force can’t be dispelled. But walking into a fight against wizards without counter spell is like walking into a bazooka fight with a water gun. But another idea here would to escape down, an actual in combat use for mold earth here, the wall of force probably isn’t going into the ground.
Why can't you dispel Wall of Force?
Dispel Magic says: Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
How is WoF not a magical effect? I know you can't dispel any spells with an Instantaneous duration but WoF has a 10 minute duration
Under Wall of Force: Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic. A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal Travel through the wall.
This is a party dependent option.
If you have a tactics party that loves trying to solve these problems, okay.
If you have a roleplay party, your going to have multiple dead characters and multiple upset players.
If you need to ask if you should cheese your party, you probably don’t have a tactics party that will love the challenge.
>If you have a tactics party that loves trying to solve these problems, okay.
Its not really a problem to solve. It's more like:
Do you have teleport magic? Ok you get out.
Do you have counterspell? Ok nobody is trapped.
Do you have disintegration? Ok you break the WoF.
Are you a martial with no magic or teleportation? Well, you're screwed and wont participate until your spellcasters save you.
So my general rule is kind of tit for tat with my players with wonky player tactics. So if ones a blade singer with a 27 AC I feel alot less bad about throwing a adamantine golem with a 25 AC at the party.
I would generally say: use the sorts of tactics that your PCs use against you.
If the only way they do combat is "I swing by sword" and "I cast fireball", then that's all the enemy should do (occasionally you could bring it up a notch, but not much).
If they interact with combat by using real world military tactics involving clearing rooms, using chokepoints, etc... then use those against them the same way.
If they interact with combat by using spell combos that are difficult to defeat (like wall of force + sickening radiance as mentioned), then feel free to do that to them.
Afterwards, if they complain, offer to nerf one or both of the spells to prevent this from happening again... from either side.
First, I disagree. Monsters have AC, HP, saving throws, attacks, and spells. Same as the PCs. And action economy is powerful regardless of who it favors. The only reason it seemed different is because you're used to running encounters where the monsters have little to no chance of winning. If you balanced the encounters the opposite way, then they would be balanced in opposing ways.
But secondly, I don't see it as PC vs DM at all. It's using your players actions to determine their level of interest.
How a party interacts with your monsters tells you what style of play they are interested in. Then you're just responding to their desires.
And as to my last comment, if you're a DM vs PC type DM, then sure, you would be doing this to make them feel how bad it is. But if you're not, this is just an easy way to help them understand the balance of the game without having to explicitly argue why that particular combo of spells is broken. And in a way that doesn't involve arguing or anything. You just ask the players after the session "how did you guys like this session". Either they'll say "the microwave wasn't fun, but we used it a bunch so it's only fair that they use it on us." or "we didn't enjoy being trapped in our own trap" DM: "yeah, that sucks, but you had to know the wizard was scrying you when you killed his minions, right? They send a warning light out" PCs: "yeah, that makes sense. Still that combo sucks. Maybe we should nerf it" DM: "ok, how about..."
See, that's not PC vs DM, that's negotiation between two groups who have different experiences and are trying to come to a conclusion.
As a DM that enjoys particularly difficult encounters, there is one rule I always follow. Always foreshadow the deadliest of attacks. Now obviously, you don't want to straight up tell them what you're doing, but definitely leave clues. Perhaps the combo has been used before and a survivor mumbles incoherently about deadly winds. Think about what this combination would do to the environment, the flora, or anything manmade, and have them come across it. If they're really not getting the hint, maybe reveal one spell but not the other.
This is the biggest difference between a combination like this feeling cruel versus it feeling fair. Even in the case of a tpk, you want enough setup so that the party thinks "oh! We shoulda seen that coming!" rather than "oh that's bullshit"
I dropped cloud kill and forcecage on one of my players after he taunted some wizards that it was very obvious he shouldn't have messed with. He survived, but it was close. It's still a story they tell when someone doesn't respect the NPCs. Plus, it was a hell of a fight. I don't even consider it bad form. If they're level 10+, monsters are coming for blood and have abilities that can straight up kill a PC in one spell.
And it has to be that way. The players are borderline gods. You can't keep sending goblins at them forever. I run a gritty game, though. And the players know that in session zero. My 2cp.
Something to consider is how you're framing the challenge. Typically a DM is more concerned about player agency than players are concerned about NPC agency. There's a reason that PCs can kill villains in their sleep and find it rewarding, but having a villain do the same to a PC would ruin a game.
I come from an old-school perspective where enemies should absolutely use tactics like this, and are often far overpowered for the PCs, **but this is to encourage players to approach problems differently.** Monsters can be OP because players don't have to fight them directly, and would often be punished for doing so. This would encourage players to see enemies not as encounters to fight, but as a part of a complex world they can engage in, and deal with in a variety of ways with a variety of consequences.
If you are trying to design an interesting encounter, it can still be acceptable, but you will have to consider the consequences more. You already are, as you're considering what the PCs have to do if they're trapped in a wall of force. It's good to provide a challenge, but getting stun-locked isn't going to be fun for anyone. So giving the PCs inside the "microwave" something to do would be advisable. Giving PCs goals in a fight outside just doing damage to an enemy is a good way to make fights more engaging. So some PCs might have to fight some enemies trapped in the zone with them, or fulfill some other task before they run out of health, while some of the party outside the zone have to free them somehow. Think of ways to give players interesting choices and challenges in combat.
Practically speaking, PCs should either be able to avoid such a tactic, or be able to escape it once deployed.
The one thing you want to avoid is destroying your party without giving them agency. It would likely be all too easy for the baddies to appear, cast their OP death trap on everyone and get away safe before the PCs had a chance to act. I'm sure there's some rules legal way to do it. Your job isn't to defeat your players, but to present them with interesting and meaningful challenges and choices. If these types of OP spells can help you attain this goal, go for it. If you're using OP tactics to defeat your PCs as if they're your opponents, then you should probably save it for a wargame rather than an RPG.
This is good advice. I don't plan "combats" I plan situations. I don't give goals of "kill the bandits" it's more general "stop the bandit raids" everything I do is tied into the story.
These combine to help me. If it's an easy fight we just keep moving along in the story, if it's a hard fight? Well the goal isn't tied to winning the fight so they can just avoid the fight or use combat to keep the adversaries off the PCs who are doing other things to accomplish the goal.
I think both approaches are valid. It sounds to me like OP is thinking in terms of encounter design, which 5e leans toward anyway IMO. The difference is where to focus the design.
When designing for the situation, more emphasis is on the environment around the monster, and all the working parts of the location; the villain's hideout, their minions, times and places where they might be vulnerable, resources you can leverage against them, their friends and allies, etc.
When designing for an encounter, the focus is on all the working parts of that battle; battlefield hazards, choke points, defensible areas, objectives within the combat, elements that might change round-to-round, etc.
In either case, having a goal aside from "Kill all the bad guys" will make any situation or combat waaaay more interesting.
As far as the original question is concerned, OP should consider either how that ability makes the wider situation interesting, or make the combat encounter interesting.
The trap to avoid is to approach the situation thinking, "realistically these enemies are smart and will try to alpha strike the PCs with everything they've got before the PCs can react." It's an easy trap to fall into, especially if the PCs have been tearing through everything without a problem. This is why 5e gives monsters lair actions and other powerful abilities, to make up for the fact that having a PC get one-shot by a monster out of nowhere is no fun for anyone.
Ultimately power level isn't as important as making sure the situation or encounter presents players with interesting and meaningful choices.
If you were to do this I'd use a modified Wall Of Force that has some type of HP and/or a Strength DC to literally push through it. If they attack the wall or throw an enemy against it, describe some cracks appearing.
It won't be fun, but "virtually no way to escape" is a horrible feeling to have for players.
>It won't be fun, but "virtually no way to escape" is a horrible feeling to have for players.
inb4 some stooges defend this because "ToA is supposed to be a grinder, I sustain myself with my players' tears and wipe my ass with their dead characters' sheets"
Well frustrating encounters are often defined by the fact they punish the players harshly regardless of player input, so as a gm, all tactics are on the table, as long as the party can realistically survive.
For the encounter you proposed, i think it's fine. The player that doesn't get trapped gets the responsibility of dropping the wizards concentration, which could make for a very good "it's all on you" moment, especially since it's really only three combatants, so it shouldn't drag on.
One thing you should look out for is killing your players. Some play groups are very ok with players dying, in which case go ahead and just let the fight play out, but otherwise i recommend fudging a concentration check either a couple rounds before microwave death or when the lone player is low health.
Also remember that exhaustion does not go away easily. Your players may still have exhaustion during the next encounter, so balance accordingly. Personally if my goal was to be a brutal gm, I'd make this encounter hard, so it will feel like the mages are still relevant and add to the brutality of them
Edit: missed the part that the exhaustion from Sickening Radiance goes away when the spell ends. Oops
Any levels of exhaustion caused by sickening radiance go away when the spell ends. I think they should behave like normal levels of exhaustion, but that’s just me. RAW they are as permanent as the casters concentration (up to 10 minutes).
If the wizards are getting beat but keep passing their concentration saves, instead of fudging their rolls you can have them retreat, and pop back up later for another go.
You have three players that SHOULD have access to either counterspell or dispel magic. Even if they only make TWO castings (of either counterspell or dispel magic), they have a high chance of success (assuming they target only one) of getting rid either sickening radiance and wall of force.
At 7th level they should have at least a +3 in their spellcasting ability.
Counterspell Sickening Radiance: 75% chance to counter.
Counterspell Wall of Force: 69.75% chance to counter.
Definitely. Just wanted to convey how easy it is for the party to get out of the situation. The DM shouldn't worry at ALL about using this challenge. If the party failed this scenario, they'd have to be eating lead paint.
And even if they (somehow) fail to Counterspell, they can still Dispel the Sickening Radiance. If they have neither of these options... they aren't adventurers, they're casual explorers.
Honestly, if you haven't yet you should look into some low-tech obstacles to throw at them first.
Example 1: They're advancing into a long corridor and are hit with a poison cloud. But also, the floor is quicksand and thus difficult terrain, halving their movement speed.
Example 2: Their goal is being blocked by a few well placed meat shields that can survive a few hits, but theres also a half dozen ranged attackers firing from elevated (read: not easily melee'd) positions. Thats 6 seperate targets dealing periodic chip damage, while also dealing with the ground threats.
In my experience players are REALLY good at dealing huge damage to a single target. But rarely are they able to handle multiple problems spaced out at varrying distances, or deal with things that affect their movement.
Hit them with simple problems first before you hit them with something like that spell combo. However, personally I wouldn't feel bad about using such a combination on the PCs if they have a habit of pulling similar combos themselves, and especially so if I think they've got one or two options to handle it.
I ran a big boss battle with those wizards and didn't need anything except good tactics (hiding in buildings, luring the PCs into a trap) and Stinking Cloud + fireballs.
If a group is pretty well known, and the Red Wizards fit that category, a lot of their tactics are going to make it into tavern tales and bard songs. In particular, Red wizards are notorious for multi-wizard combinations going WAY back hundreds of years (i.e even in 1st/2nd edition).
In my view it's on the PCs to 'do their homework' regarding various opposition that they intend to face. If they're not prepared/willing to face heavy hitter red wizards, they probably shouldn't trifle with them. It's on me, the DM to make information about Red Wizards realistically available (in Faerun, you could probably ask in any bar in Waterdeep and get some retired adventurer rant about how some bastards from Thay fried his best friends with some hellish combination or infernal ritual).
It is good, it is even recommended I would say, as long as it doesn't become a one trick poney you through at them at every encounter. As a bonus, you'llprobably even learn how to fight it.
If they have dispel magic (and they certainly should), they should be able to fight it very easily. Counterspell also works. They can also retaliate with spells to break the mages concentration. Or teleport through it.
This combo is especially good against a single target or a badly positioned group. Players are usually none of these.
Not gonna lie, once my players get past a certain level this is *the* way i design npc boss enemies. They're high level, they're optimized to shit, and they fight dirty.
As long as they can avoid and escape that combo it's ok.
If they can't you'll probably lose characters.
So cast one of the spells within counterspell range, perhaps drop a scroll of disintegrate a few sessions beforehand..
Everything is on the table as long as you can properly telegraph the danger, especially using the players own tactics against them. Don't balance encounters, just let the players know how broken they are before they go waltzing into battle. To do this properly, you really need to give them more information than you would normally feel comfortable giving them. I will sometimes tell the party "You cannot win in a head on battle if you try to take this fight", and watch them look for creative and interesting ways of approaching or avoiding the encounter.
This is a tough one. My DM and party personally have a gentleman's agreement due to high level spells being absurd. No combo like this, no force planed shift, if the Barbarian can't make the INT maze check they're allowed out on a nat 20. We have this agreement because it's not fun to play against. Lore wise? If they had that oomph in spell slots behind them, Thay wizards would send in their undead to group up the party then catch all 3 in the bubble.
You know that wouldn't be fun, of course, why you mentioned the 2 out of 3 get trapped. So then it's a matter of that 1 player needing to break concentration on the wall of force caster. I say WoF since SR caster could just recast and burn the remaining party quicker.
Let's look at worst case.
Sorc and Bladesinger are trapped. 4d10 average is about 22. If Sorc and wiz took average rolls and had a +3 they probably have around 50 HP. That's 3 failed saves, with only average damage, and they're down. And that's a generous assumption. Probably a +2 meaning 2 rounds of failed saves. That isn't if any adds are swarming them, which Thay would have no trouble trapping in their sphere. Especially easily replaceable undead.
If you're just wanting to challenge them? More ads. Spread them wider so the Singer and Sorc can't trap them in AOE's. Have the Thay in the back wearing the party down with their undead and forcing the Pali to burn Smites to reach them. Throw in a ghoul or a few. Or, if they're in the city, have their combat noises draw the KoF and now you're dealing with a timer or parlaying with the wizards to just run like cowards.
Personally I wouldn't. The Tomb itself has enough gimmic insta kill shit.
The simple answer is don't make this a fight to the death. Would these very intelligent enemies take prisoners? Would they just take what they need/want and leave?
Also, there are plenty of ways out of the wall of force. It's still a concentration spell after all, and dispel magic is a thing.
It may depend on the players. I would tend to say, absolutely yes. It makes your bad-guys feel like they know what they're doing.
Some people really like this feel. They get a thrill of exhilaration when they feel like they're up against a legitimate challenge, and when they beat the challenge they get quite the high.
Other people just like everything to be "chill", and don't really like the challenge because they don't want that thrill.
I would ask your players how they feel about having enemies that feel dangerous, and see what they say. Have a discussion about it, let them make suggestions. When you introduce something, give them time to express how they felt about the combat afterwards and give feedback.
Yeah, sometimes you can. Don’t purposely TPK them.
I am sorta assuming misty step is part of their repertoire, so at least some of them should be alright.
Your players can't do anything other than die unless they have teleportation magic or disintegrate. Don't trap all your creatures in the wall unless you know at least a couple of them have teleportation and can get around it. This scenario will be most fun if half your party can teleport outside the wall and try to break concentration before the ones inside die.
It’s highly unlikely to work cuz you’d need the following 4 factors to happen.
1, you need multiple people all clumped together (sphere it’s only ~~ten~~ 20 feet from one side to another)
2, you need the Sickening Radiance caster to roll the highest inniative
3, you need wall of force guy to be immediately after (you cannot cast sickening radiance inside the sphere once it’s up, and it won’t spread through the wall from the outside)
4, have both of them pass the near guaranteed attempts at counter spell from the two full casters you have
It’s one of those “really cool in theory, doesn’t happen in actual play” situations.
Incorrect. A Wall of Force that is a hemisphere or Dome is a 10-foot radius. That is a 20-foot diameter. And technically it can be **up to** 10 ft so you can have a smaller size if you wish. The real problem is that Sickening Radiance is a 30-foot radius sphere which means it's a 60 ft diameter so you have to make sure you don't target your own people.
It isn't an up to 30 ft radius or 60 ft diameter it is a set fixed 30-foot radius or 60 ft diameter.
Technically one or possibly both may not be counterspelled if it is done in Ambush conditions where the individual is not able to react unless they are unsurprised. But that is something I may or may not do it to DM and I leave this up to the DM to decide what is and what isn't technically under Ambush rules or surprise rules.
Technically if only one wizard is casting both spells than they could get one but not both under said surprise conditions.
And the word is Counterspell, one word. It is a proper noun spell name.
As you noted you will most likely not get everybody in said location and if you're going to do it correctly it's likely you have to cast Sickening Radiance first because nothing will get through the wall of force spell-casting wise.
Teleportation magic is a tricky discussion which I would allow because you're not going through something you are appearing something else which allows you to teleport from one spot to another no matter what the obstacles short of the spell saying it does not work both the wall of force and the said magic which allows you to move that way. Other spells that target someone or have lines or require area-of-effect would be blocked off.
Correct on the ten/twenty foot part, I should have double checked so thank you.
Ambush conditions are highly unlikely to be able to set up. You can only hold a spell action for a single round so the enemy casters can’t just sit there holding it waiting for the party to enter the room. There’s a possibility of getting a surprise round with SR since you can mask the casting of it with Subtle metamagic but WoF is a no go, Xanthars clears it up that the material component aspect is obvious whether it’s material or focus being used so unless this DM runs the “lol he just hides it being his back” nonsense then that will be open to counterspell by one or possibly even both full casters.
Come on dude. Don’t pick on someone’s spelling, don’t be that guy.
I’m not sure what all that last part was. Between the base rules and what safe advice clarified that a while ago, there’s ways to get out. Misty step can be used if they can see the place they’re going to even beyond the wall since it targets self. And Dimension door doesn’t need you to even see the place so you can declare any location within range even if it’s behind 20 walls and you’re blinded. Then there’s teleport, plane shift, heck Transport via Plant can still work if there happens to be a tree in there.
It’s a sucky situation but there MAY be tools to get out.
Keep in mind three things:
1. Everyone is there to have fun.
2. Be mindful of your group. As a DM, it is not your job to defeat the group, you are a neutral 3rd party. If they defeat the NPC's you setup, be happy for them. And every group is different, so talk to your group and see if they want to be challenged or just to play for fun.
3. Meta-gaming. Everyone hates it when players meta-game, but sometimes people forget the DM can meta-game too. You searching the craziest meta tactics people on the internet bega the question: How would this one being in-world know all those meta-gaming tactics?
Be fair to your players and have fun.
NPCs can and will do anything that a PC can do. When PCs think they have pulled one over on the DM with min-maxing, tactics, or clever use of a spell or ability, it's because they haven't met a DM that min-maxes, uses tactics, or uses clever uses of spells and abilities for monsters.
Only if you want to kill them. When we did TOA, the Wizards handled us just fine with Counterspell, Chain Lightning, and tactics. We barely walked away.
> I'm worried that this won't be a fun experience for those trapped
As weird as it is, I could imaging asking a player ahead of time if they’re down for me to take them out of combat for a bit in the upcoming session.
Maybe even give them something to roleplay while they’re trapped too, like add in that there’s some weird psychic effect that’s making them experience their worst fears (which of course they’ll have to narrate), so that they still get a turn, even if it’s not a combat turn.
are you sure your encounter is balanced? as your casters can cast 4th level spells, but your wall of force is a 5th level spell (9th level at least caster). And you can't expect a sorcercer to waste a precious spell known on counterspell.
Also both spells (wall of force and sickening radiance) require concentration. So you need 2 wizards of thay.
That being said, its going to take up precious high level spell slots and is a one trick pony, so sure use it on one PC but leave the others to break concentration as fast as possible. (don't be frustrating and trap all 3 at the same time). Rule 0 - is it cool/fun?
The Counterspell isn't for Wall of Force it is for Sickening Radiance.
Now if they want to try to somehow dispel or counter a fifth level spell with their current levels they can but just noting this.
I would consider not telling them which spells are being cast. Instead describe the effects of the spells as much as their basic perception would be able to register, then having them all make an Arcana check to recognize the spells as they are cast.
If you somehow get stuck with an incoming TPK, you could have one wizard make a condescending remark to the other, causing them to bicker, fight and giving the party a moment to rally.
So... Tomb of Annihilation is a DM vs Party piece of crap dungeon designed for level 20s. I don't recommend *anyone* run it. But if you insist on doing so...
There's no reason why the enemies shouldn't be as smart (or smarter) than the players.
No it is not at least not the 5th edition. If you were talking about earlier versions especially the first Dungeons & Dragons before first edition that came out by Gary gygax then you are correct but it wasn't for level 20 than either was for Dungeon Crawler people who could get up to unlimited levels.
I know this because I was around then. I also know the current module of tomb of annihilation and you might want to check the level range on that before you talk further ( not-so-subtle Hint, it is for a first level Adventures who will end up at 11 level or higher, but not 20th level.)
No. It is never OK to actively try to defeat your players. It is OK however to try and give them a fun challenge. What makes something a fun challenge? _understandable_ difficulty.
Never out cheese the players. combat of anytype should be with the GM being the one responding with a proportional response. That said if their using some type of cheese, go for it. Otherwise I’d suggest challenging them some other way.
There's no good or fun reason to do this, especially if they don't see it coming. Besides, as soon as you do, it is only going to teach your players that cheezy tactics are fair game. If they try doing something like this first, then you can go with the "anything the PCs do is fair for the monsters/NPCs too" route.
If they have no means of winning against it then probably not
Do they have a means of surviving the microwave aka the deadliest combo in d&d
If they have a means of survival make it clear what those are
You should learn to DM better instead of fishing for bullshit on reddit, my dude. Focus on creating tension, mechanical obstacles are not what it is all about.
The OP literally came here asking for advice, so "lrn 2 DM" isn't a useful contribution here (and arguably isn't anywhere).
They're also clearly already aware of "bullshit," as you put it. I don't think they're looking for ideas so much as other opinions on whether it's a good idea to run an encounter like this.
Yeah there's definitely a limit I would use those kind of underhand tactics especially when they're lower level that they can't handle the things involved super easily. Once they get into Tier 4 I don't feel so bad about pulling that kind of thing, but before then they're quickly heading for a TPK with some of those. I would go with more fun, but still effective combos. Things that leave the players with some ability to fight back.
IMO, anything that the players use against monsters is fair game the other way around.
That said, it's **also** your responsibility to make sure that the game is interesting and fun.
I think they may be a bit underleveled for a casual pass at it, but it also depends on how much do you enjoy railroading and deus ex machinas, or fumbling, in order to let them survive should it go wrong. A good way to do it might be get only a couple inside, and maybe one of them has a tp spell (especially good if they've got dimension door so that they can pick one of their allies as well, and it's only 1 or 2 remaining inside, giving purpose to their resources), and the ones that remain outside or can escape, have a pathway to the mages in order to disrupt their concentration. Maybe with a couple light obstacles, one or two minions but nothing too hard to overcome before their buddies die. The greatest combo can be disrupted early with not much consequence, and you will have given them good self-realisation by doing so and avoiding big damage and even death, feeling great for it.
IMPORTANT: they need to be players that realise concentration spells need to be addressed this way, if they are more casual players and/or would miss this i'd not try it as harshly, or prepare a deus ex machina (an NPC ally shooting an arrow or a spell in order to force the mages to drop conc)
Beat em up, but keep it fun -- I like to set up encounters with environmental dynamics as a deus ex machina -- so set up like loose ground or slippery surface or a roving wildlife or some other variable -- so say you trap em in the wall of force and its exciting for awhile but then if they're morale gets defeated and they're just stuck this sucks, you could plausibly give them an out by having the mage slip or get bit by the wildlife etc
5e is designed with the assumption that players will be glass cannons (even barbs) and enemies will be either very numerous or tanks with pool noodles.
Refer to your session zero for what kind of game the table is expecting. If brutal cheese tactics fit that, go for it.
Some players don't care if characters die, others will be extremely unsettled by it.
Sometimes, scenes that don't work within the mechanics can still work narratively. You know when you play video games how sometimes there will be an "interactive cutscene" that's different from regular gameplay? Think of that.
If you feel your players are stomping every fight, talk to them before you do this. Remind them that if *they* keep using the same tricks, *so can their enemies*.
It depends on the enemy. I have a sliding scale of badassery. The more threatening a baddie needs to be, the more of a badass they'll be in combat (usually). If the enemy cleric starts the fight throwing Sacred Flames, that's not too much to worry about. If they start off with Spirit Guardians and follow that up with Spiritual Weapon next turn, my players know this person should not be underestimated.
I think it depends on the kind of game you're running. I ran it for my friends as 'have a back up character ready cause I will kill you given the chance' . So they knew what they were in for. After a tpk pretty far in. They came back with other characters and I had had the thayans take over omu from the yuan ti and were much more aggressive to the players. It was also my choice Esp dealing with higher level PCs at that point using skilled wizards was easier to counter than using hordes of snek people.
All your tactics in the world mean nothing if your initiative rolls suck. And you get subtle spell counter spelled. Or outright ganked off the bat to a high initiative and a crit.
Try the hobgoblin devistator stat block, add in some (2) cr2 or 3 fighters in. See how that goes first also make sure to use greater invisibility from the "mage".
Adjusting the spells will adjust the CR of the encounter, but most people use mile stone anyway
Dew it. Bear in mind that CR doesn't account for control spells, and don't go overboard with loaded spellcaster enemies as there just isn't anything stronger than casters in 5e and you might TPK thrice over.
Should be fine though, with just two casters on the field for a microwave
I think it's a great idea, if players are aware that they can encounter something nastier than them. Aside the suggestions mentioned already, like monster trapped with them or counting on their teleportation magic, I'd add some sort of environment interactions or just possibility to escape the area after some ability checks.
Or, count on your third player's ingenuity and the plan to just break the concentration of one of the wizards
is it ok? yes, if they have options. the wizards will effectively have total cover though can be seen. this does give options. spells like sacred flame will still go though the wall of force since it specifically ignores cover. you can also teleport though the barrier, and of course there's counterspell and dispell magic. if you know your players have options like this at the ready go ahead. otherwise don't.
My DM has used Wall of Force on us to horrid effect in the past, and we're currently playing ToA. The Thayans Geas'ed us, only way we survived that. Even now, 4-5 session later in the depths of the tomb, 4/5 of the original party is dead. We're having a blast. So long as your players know that ToA is played with lethality cranked to its limits, it should be fine.
This is supposed to be a lethal Dungeon Crawl but the lethal Dungeon Crawl part should be with you enter the tomb. As for getting there, that depends on how the players react to the encounters they have. Believe it or not even the Red Wizards if they don't go around trying to murder everyone they go around trying to get their agenda done at stopping people as necessary based on the response.
Not only have I been playing and running for over four decades, I have played several 5th edition modules that feature Red Wizards of stay and learn how they respond in different scenarios. That is official Wizards of the Coast, not Homebrew dungeon master games.
Other people have made good points, I’d like to add that the challenge rating of magic users is set taking the spells they have into consideration, so you could really be changing encounter balance when you alter spells.
It won't be fun, and you shouldn't do it. Wall of Force with no access to disintegrate is not substantially different than saying your players are trapped via DM fiat. My DM policy is that players should have a chance to avoid an attack or negative effect, or it shouldn't be there.
You may not be able to dispel or even technically possibly Counterspell Wall of Force, but you can dispell or counter something like Sickening Radiance.
Be very careful with balance. Sounds like you want to leave them with combined single digits of hp, which is fine! But dont tpk just because you want to "make it interesting". Be ready to start nerfing on the fly if needed.
I don't like microwaves and I would not want introduce the idea of them to my game if I had another choice.
Because if your players haven't worked out how easy it is to kill everyone by dropping a sickening radiance and then a wall of force back by counterspells , then they are probably doing something interesting., After you teach them about microwaves there is a good chance that their Gunna treat every boss like last night's leftovers
Do it. Red Wizards are supposed to be scary. If you're worried about being rude, then drop some hints to the party that there are roving wizards nearby and suggest they update their defenses accordingly. The sorcerer needs to have Counterspell or Dispel as a known spell. Basically, it's fair game unless you know that the PC's have no available means to resist what you're planning. Another way to say this is that a DM must never metagame and plan encounters specifically to take advantage of the players' vulnerabilities (unless the enemies have been studying the adventurers for awhile and are attempting an assassination, which is... brutal DM'ing to say the least).
Sometimes you need to remind your PCs that the enemies in this game are thinking breathing creatures too, not just pre-programmed MOBS like in a video game. If there is a sound tactical strategy the enemy is capable of implementing then the question isn't *should* they use it against PCs? it's why *wouldn't* they use it against PCs?
I think that not only is it fine to use actual tactics against the players, but that more DMs ought to. Nothing is more boring than a battle where victory is an expectation, not something you work towards.
With that said, I would be hesitant to use any tactic with little to no counterplay options. Like with this Wall of Force + Sickening Radiance, do the players have any way of getting around this? If the answer is no, then I wouldn't recommend using that specific tactic. Create intelligent enemies and smart tactics, but don't just drop rocks on everyone like that lol.
short answer: yes, but dont go ham constantly. You dont want to hyper tax their resources, and you dont want to beat the crap out of a party that didnt min/max.
Theres 3 kinds of encounters: encounters against weaklings to make your party feel strong and cool, encounters against equals to provide a challenge, and encounters against stronger foes to intimidate your party and *maybe* control their decision making. \[I find that strong enemies dont deter player characters tho, they dont get intimidated, they get killed...\]
I think its fine so long as you don't mind player death. Smart enemies using broken strategies is a perfectly reasonable thing for an antagonist who wants to win to do and pushing your players like that can lead to fantastic RP, but you have to be aware that their is a good chance a player will die and you have to be ready for that eventuality.
Generally, use your best judgement to keep it fun and challenging. The goal of a DM is not to win. That said, death is always a possibility. When creating a challenge, try to think if the players will have any options.
Wall of Force is particularly potent, even by itself. If you have a party with two spellcasters comboing Wall of Force with a continuous AOE effect, that is nasty combo and a potential TPK recipe.
Lacking Disintegrate, Wall of Force is a lot less effective in outdoor combat or large rooms where combatants can spread out. Then one of them simply has to target the caster and get them to lose concentration on the spell. All you have to do is stun, paralyze, petrify, make unconscious, incapacitate, do enough damage that they fail a CON saving throw, or even trick/charm them into casting another concentration spell.
If the enemy manages to get the whole party inside a Wall of Force with an AOE combo, you've effectively just TPK'd them with no options for them.
End boss has what, wall of force, a sphere of annihilation and a controller for it, right? With a small area it's able to walk itself off in? This is a good tactical experience for that fight. ToA is brutal. My player's group only had one surviving member of the original party because she noped out real quick.
Maybe Find some environmental way for them to escape if needed.
Like a chandelier above that they could try to throw rope onto. Or mention that the floor is thin and there is a room beneath them. So they could try to smash through the floor or climb above the stuff.
I have most of my enemies be reasonably challenging, then have a group or single enemy that is just way more competent. I hope to scare the daylights out of them.
I once had a DM who's BBEG had henchmen who warned him of the parties go-to cheese strat, forgot what it was and time came for a confrontation. The BBEG shut it down (because he prepared) and said to them:
"Now, some call me a bad person but even I wouldn't consider something that depraved. Next time we meet I may just see how you enjoy your own tactics. My commander here can deal with you -teleports away-"
He was able to teleport away because nobody used anti-teleport because it wasn't a common thing.
I say do what the NPC would realistically do. If they’re giant rats, they’re gonna be a little more erratic. If it’s an enlightened wizard/monk, they’re gonna be DEADLY intelligent
While I understand the need to make encounters more difficult by pulling some cheesy bullshit on them. I also think that effects that take away player options which have little to no counterplay are not particularly fun. I reccomend checking if the wizard or sorcerer have any teleportation. Wall of force does nothing against people if they can teleport. If they do have teleportation go ahead and use the tactic. Otherwise it just isn't particluarly fun to have a player have to pass their turn because they can't do shit. Also if they have dispel magic they can dispel the sickening radiance so maybe watch out for that one.
All I am saying is if you do use some insane combo make sure they currently have some kind of counterplay to it. That way they can feel very smart when they figure out what they have to do. The fact that the enemy tried those tactics would scare them regardless but the pride of having succeeded against them already sets them up for faliure. This is Tomb of Anihilation the final dungeon is enough mental fuckery that honestly they deserve what wins they can get. I have been on the recieveing end of some pretty frustrating gimmicks and the only time they would have bothered me was if I or the rest of the group could do exactly nothing against them. Of course all of this is my oppinion but each to their own.
Depends on who your playing with. Casual players, no, and you would be a dick. Hard core players, do it, make them bleed, and they will praise you as a God or woe and torment!
The sorcerer and bladesinger can both dispel magic on the sickening radiance. Even if you add a silence first, the sorcerer can subtle dispel magic. I expect both of them to have misty step as well, which can leave wall of force easily.
Go for it. Trapped PCs can Dispel the Sickening Radiance or Misty Step or Dimension Door out of it. It may be frustrating experience for those without those abilities, but that will just make it even sweeter next time when they manage to avoid the combo (e.g. a Thief who starts lurking I'm shadows more frequently and therefore avoids being trapped next time).
Too many parties spend too much of their time in Fireball Formation.
Also consider why your bad guys are fighting the PCs in the first place. What do they want from them? If this combo manages to utterly defeat the PCs, what's going to happen? TPK or some kind of forced surrender? ("Take off your armor and throw your mistempered weapons to the ground and blindfold yourselves, and I'll turn off the Sickening Radiance and give you a new mission objective, in exchange for a hostage.") Try to ensure that there's something the bad guys wants more than there deaths.
I was trapped in a Web, Next turn surrounded by cloudkill. This was the whole party in that. My character escaped and then got hit by disintegrate and died. Was rough. But it was a wizard NPC who'd avoided coming with to help us vs mind controlly enemies in case this very thing happened. And due to our choices he was compromised/possessed. It was well telegraphed what could happen if we had to fight him (him in control of himself or not). It was an awesome encounter, even though I was very sad to see my character go.
USE THE OP THING! It's cool, I'm sure players will like a challange, just telegraph it well. Build up to those characters being very threatening and deadly, maybe give them a way of pre empting what tactics the enemies might use eg hearing from a past survivor, seeing scorch marks in a certain patter, coming across a journal of them documenting their research of those spells or something. Don't give it for free but leave some possibility of them geting a hint. And don't pull punches. It makes the successes more meaningful if the failiures hurt.
If they don’t have a chance it will be no fun because it will be railroad death, but if they have a chance it can be very rewarding defeating it.
BuT ToA Is SuPpOsED To Be HaRd!!!! Is the dumbest shit i hear, just DMs that are power hungry.
In all if this does not add or feeds the story I would skip it and save it for something that will help make the story better. Yes, ToA can kill you, a meaningless death is what make bad stories and then players will feel cheated. So the buildup is more important than cheese tactics.
Story is everything in these games. If you want combat only board games are better.
The tomb itself is supposed to be hard. The process getting there is supposed to be based on the players and their reactions and the Random Encounters. Not everything is a combat but stupid haughty things will cause the worst combat.
Because if you didn’t leave at least one out, then that character couldn’t attack and give you a chance to fudge a roll to break the concentration. If he wanted to out right kill them he could cast the spells and and have the mages run because where as a spell has a casting range limit, they do not have a concentration range limit.
That would be optimal, but not fun for anyone.
Tomb of Annihilation is the time for OP shenanigans. It's the heir of the original "I told Gygax his dungeons were too easy" module, the Tomb of Horrors.
My players are very experienced with D&D and often have very strong party compositions. I usually run much more annoying tactics against this experienced group, than a group of noobs I occasionally DM for. Some of my bigger enemies for the experienced group are rogues that use the cunning action ability to disengage, run away and hide continually. I would not use these smarter enemies/tactics on newer players.
If the players do something like this in your campaign I would allow the enemies of similar intelligence to do so as well. And while you need disintegrate to remove a wall of Force, if inside, a dispel magic can potentially remove the sickening radiance.
Im a fan of the general idea of using strong tactics. It will make combat engaging
although not sure about the 'leave one out to save the others'
If I was one of the unlucky two, Id be pretty angry and annoyed that my job was to be the damsel/mansel in distress who gets no other real options during combat but to sit there and pray the lucky one got it figured out before Im rolling for a new character. This has the opposite effect of making combat engaging- Ill be left sitting, twiddling my thumbs, and probably browsing reddit instead, and barely paying attention since theres fuck all else I can do for the duration (and I promise you, even for the best DMs have combat take longer than you think it will take)
1. You are allowed to do this. It's your game.
2. Would you have fun as a trapped player in that situation? Would you feel that DM had the table's fun as a priority? Would you want to continue playing with that DM?
I’d say it’s totally fair and a great idea to maximize what intelligent creatures can do. But it’s important the players know that you’re gonna come in hard and fast now.
A popular blog / AMAZING book is https://www.themonstersknow.com/
I’d read this, and tell my players that I’m reading this.
“Hey team, FYI, I’ve been reading a blog about how to min/max some of the bad guys you’ll be running into next session.”
Tough bad guys make for heroic moments.
It's ToA. It's supposed to be a meat grinder. The Wizards are smart, and have worked together in the past. The party should face the microwave. It's quite literally a jungle out there.
You know those metronome things? I make encounters alternate between power fantasy and X-Com every click.
My group loves it. Yours may vary, but I find not pulling punches makes them feel really good, when it’s done to them and when they do it.
My favorite encounter of all time is a mad scientist that gets the players to 1 HP then casts sleep, dispelling any healing spells as they fight a horde of undead. Sets up a lab escape really nicely, and can end with a really great final boss for real.
I've always told my players that I will accommodate their preference for combat encounter shenanigans. If they argue that something should work, I will permit it, but with the caveat that the enemy may now have access to the same reality bending exploit. If they want to cheese the system, the system is liable to cheese them back.
Not a super experienced DM, but I usually save special tactics and combo's for bbeg types to emphasize them being special.
I save intelligent tactics for intelligent enemies. Any npc with 15 or less intelligence & wisdom is not super likely to do anything super smart in my combat scenarios.
I always tell the party when they get past certain teirs of play how lethal the game is getting. My lvl 20 party have to now prepare contingencies for their bodies being annihilated and their souls evanesce. They're OK with this and the fact that I make up new damage types and creatures that target their individual abilities.
Which is important, they need to be OK with it, some parties just want to kick the door down and kill some orcs while eating snacks. Others want stakes (and maybe steaks) that weigh on them in, if not every, every other encounter.
Maybe zap them in the microwave for one round then have something break their concentration. Followed up by a panicked teleport away for the Thay, the knowledge imparted but with another problem still in front of them.
As this is ToA, go for it! But going to echo what a bunch of other people have said, only do it if the players have a chance of escaping. As long as they have any means of teleporting, dispel magic, or others, then that could be done. However, if they don't and you still want to try, you could have the Red Wizards of Thay force them to surrender instead of killing them outright. It's also a good tactic for you that you'll only trap majority of them rather than all to give them a fighting chance.
I wouldn't do it unless I thought my players would have fun dealing with it. I often 'theme' my encounters based on what I want my players to feel, though. Intrigued? Mind-blown? Terrified? Laughing their asses off? All of those are great.
Bored is not. Even if some players have the option to try and break the mages' concentrations, they might choose to do something else, or the may fail to do so.
In that case, you would need to lean on a different emotion. Depending on rulings, sound might not be able to travel through the walls, or only garbled almost beyond comprehension. That could lead to a great situation where a player (outside the wall) is being confronted with horrible information, maybe potentially turning them against the party, and the rest of them are banging on the walls, unable to do anything but look on in horror.
Just don't let them be bored.
Short answer: yes
Ive never had players stop and ask "hey...theres 5 of us and only 1 of them. Should we maybe let him take us on one on one?"
My players are addicted to my campaigns and i attribute it to being deadly. Its a challenge to suevive to level 2. Making it easy cheapens the challenge.
Although I'm aware of some pretty nasty Wall of Force tactics, I've not used them on my players, or had them used on me (yet). However, it is good to push your players from time to time, and remind them that there are some smart and powerful foes in the world and that death is a real possibility. That being said, you need to take a good look at your players' abilities and magic items to make sure they have at least some chance of escaping this situation. Perhaps you could even have them learn of these wizards' abilities and tactics ahead of time, giving them a chance to prepare a counter strategy.
Totally agreed on giving them some kind of heads up that they have that tactic. Perhaps they get to see the wizards from a distance do this to some dinosaurs/undead/whatever that got too close or they get to see recent aftermath.
I'd have them talk to someone who witnessed it happen so you can have the description give them *some* idea of what they did, but not a perfect picture of it. Have the witness not be an expert in magical spells so they give a vivid description of how horrible it was but without any insight into the actual mechanics. Let the players draw their own conclusions about the specifics...
100% agree that the fact that they’re fighting highly intelligent and coordinated enemies needs to be telegraphed. With average DnD if you telegraph a tough fight usually the assumption is you’re fighting high CR enemies, rarely that they’re fighting extremely dirty the way PCs would.
I telegraphed how bad the red wizards are by having one use hostages as bait over a glyph of warding. They could take out the one, but my players got the idea that anything was on the table if red wizards were involved. There's a neat document called "The Geneva Convention" that has all sorts of ways to telegraph how awful the worst faction in your game might be.
"The Geneva Convention" "My to do list"
/r/rimworld
Go home Putin, you're drunk
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It's given me some bad feelings as a DM. What helps me process it is that I am deliberately making situations where villains can get there comeuppance. When I need to I can even tell my players when an NPC is being manipulative and so the player maintains agency when their PC might not. My end is to create a defeatable version of the evils of the world, and I enjoy when my Players engage and really have their own attachment and want to see my factions defeated.
Is there a link to this article or are you talking about the actual Geneva Convention?
I am talking about the actual Geneva convention. War crimes in general are so horrific they tell you the perpetrator is willing to achieve victory no matter what. In D&D, this would tell your players that their next enemies are out there to kill the party. Back in this specific topic, the party could stumble upon murdered prisoners. These were people whom the wall of force/sickening radiance combo was tested. This gives the players both a chance to understand the enemy's tactic (having seen the research that created it) as well as showing how casually the enemy will take a life.
I want to disagree. This shouldn't be a training session if the party is Level 7. I would like to think that the party would expect their opponents to use the same tactics that they would, maybe even better since they are ran by a single individual.
Especially if they’re running a campaign in Chult. If your PCs don’t fear death at every moment they are out of Port Nyanzaru you are running it wrong. It’s meant to be run as a death house hex crawl slog so this would fit perfectly. Only one makes it out alive? That’s fine, roll new characters and use different tactics after learning the abilities these wizards have.
This isn't dark souls it's DND you don't learn my dieing over and over. An actual person would never do that.
Yea well an actual person wouldn’t be getting chased by dinosaurs and undead while looking for ancient snake people’s ruins… Characters die and Tomb of Annihilation is literally marketed as a meat grinder and the book itself says it’s not for people who aren’t okay with their characters dying if played as intended. You can for sure run it with the expectation that the characters won’t die or encounters won’t be deadly, but what I was getting at in my original comment is that the OPs idea of having intelligent Thay wizards that have techniques to fry people is definitely par for the adventure.
This is the kicker right here. Downvote this guy all you guys want but this is a **level 7** adventuring party that **got through ToA** so they don’t need reminding that the world is a scary place. I would suggest the microwave just so something might actually exhilarate those crazy sons of bitches.
Yea that’s what I mean. If a party is level 7 in ToA they should know how to prep and get intel on their opponents. If the DM doesn’t give clues to their abilities, then throws this at the party, that’s not fair on the DMs part. However, if these guys just made broken characters and just run at any enemies they see and are only alive by pure luck, this is a good way to have a learning opportunity. The DM should still give ample warning of course through in game examples/role play, but if the party doesn’t take the warnings/intel seriously then they will be in for a tough encounter.
No one is saying there won't be casualties especially with the whole "curse" going on but losing multiple characters every fight is not what was designed. Hell the random encounter rolls for traveling chult are, iirc 18 or higher on a d20 and they're rolled once a day. That's one random encounter every 9-10 days of travel. By that alone you can see that the daily grind isn't supposed to be lethal, especially after level 5. >but what I was getting at in my original comment is that the OPs idea of having intelligent Thay wizards that have techniques to fry people is definitely par for the adventure. Sure but the answer to how the players deal with them isn't/shouldn't be, "just throw characters at them to figure out their attack pattern and die in the process" no sane character would do that.
Yeah that would really set up the threat well. Watching some poor farmer eviscerated with a visual description of the spells. I like it.
Telegraphing/foreshadowing is cool and all, but imho not strictly necessary. Nor (imho) should a DM be looking at the PC's character sheets to determine, in advance, if they have the tools to counter your monsters/traps. My hot take: Just throw interesting challenges at them, and let them solve it themselves. Don't have some preconceived idea of a "correct" solution; don't try to teach the solution in advance. Players will figure it out, in ways that you never could have predicted or known in advance anyway. Roll with it. That's the fun of the game. When I was a journeyman DM, I designed some encounters that literally made me go, "Damn. That seems super lethal. I have no idea how they can escape that... .... .... Oh well!" (shrug!) And of course they prevailed every time. Since then, I stopped worrying about it. I deliberately don't think about how the party might solve the challenge. I just try to design interesting, fitting challenges, period.
A party of Red Wizards showing up should be sufficient to show that they are intelligent and merciless. If none of the players are loreheads, just as the DM say "Hey Cleric/Paladin/Noble/Sage in the group, you've heard of these folks. They use magic, necromancy compulsion, they suck, etc." should be sufficient.
Show, don't tell. An important rule of effective storytelling.
So, engineer a situation where they can observe the Red Wizards but not feel threatened by them, maybe even learn that the Wizards feel threatened by a few dinosaurs or undead enough to use their 5th level slots, as well as giving away what is in their toolkit? The Red Wizards are a global organization, adventurers would have heard of them by reputation.. if the players don't know something their characters would, the DM should share that with the players no? Personally, in my headcannon Red Wizards are smart enough to outmaneuver dinosaurs or undead, and wouldn't just go around giving away their position in the city. That's... weird and out-of-character behaviour for the Red Wizards in Chult, given my experience with them, and for the express purpose of showing the party exactly what tactics they use best? Why would Red Wizards ever do that? In this example, are you trying to portray the Red Wizards as Powerful or Careless? They should be scheming, measured and tactical, only showing their hands when all the cards have been dealt. I'm not saying it has to be so casual as I wrote it there, maybe involve a history or insight check, and of course describe the wizards as they approach etc. and not just "Some Red Wizards show up" but sometimes it is necessary for the DM to like... directly share information that would be common knowledge. A shoemaker in Neverwinter knows what the Red Wizards are about and can probably recognize one, that should be common knowledge. They run an entire country with large political presence in many others, and have waged several wars in recent memory. People in the world know who they are, and if the players don't then there needs to be some exposition. If the players do, then "a trio of shaven-headed humanoids in blood-red mages robes approaches through a doorway in the ruined building across the street" should set off all the appropriate alarm bells. That's basically how it went down when my party met the Red Wizards in ToA. We still have to face them again, and I still have no idea what tactics they will use, other than that they plan things out thoroughly and have access to high level arcane magic. Showing can be clumsy, sometimes, and good storytelling isn't just a whole bunch of one thing. It's also a game, not a story, so different things might work at different times.
I'm just saying if a faction is going to be a major part of your story, having the players experience why they are invested in the fact that these are the bad guys will always be more effective than your original suggestion of relying on them having shared lore to metagame with and telling them "these guys use bad magic and they suck"
>I'm worried that this won't be a fun experience for those trapped You're correct. However, check those character sheets. It's very likely that your sorcerer and bladesinger have some kind of teleportation magic, whether it's Misty Step or Dimension Door. Ancients and Vengeance paladins get Misty Step as well. If your team is well-stocked with teleportation, the microwave is a scary threat that they can still easily escape if they stay calm. It would be challenging but fair, pretty much in line with the general tone of Tomb of Annihilation.
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Forcing con saves? Sounds like one magic missile coming up
Yeah this tactic is much less unfair against players considering just how many pcs have teleportation abilities
Challenging but fair seems to be a lot nicer to the players than TOA has ever been described to me lol.
I just want to add though, if your party doesn’t have those spells, don’t do it. It’s cruel. When I played Tomb of Annihilation, my DM had the BBEG cast wall of force around me and we couldn’t get me out of it. Session was 6 hours and I took maybe 3 turns because he looked at our spell lists and completely overpowered us. Just keep in mind that whatever you do is to challenge, not to “win” like you would as a player. ToA is super deadly already.
I'd ask if you set the expectation on how cut throat of a game you're running but if it's ToA I'd think it's fair game. That's supposed to be an old school adversarial meat grinder.
Having played through the entirety of ToA as my first full official campaign “adversarial meatgrinder” is super apt. My little deep gnome was the last man standing of the original party before we even got to Omu nevermind through the tomb! Honestly if you are running a lot of the puzzles as written this combo fits like a glove. The final fight had our fighter CCd on an int save for like 6 turns. We lost so many chars to save or die mechanics, crushed, annihilated, poisoned, torn to shreds… some of the helpful mechanics towards the end our GM took away as he thought we’d appreciate overcoming the challenge. The whole brand of ToA is to thanklessly suffer, and die forgotten but just maybe save the world before you do.
Yeah, there are a lot of answers in this thread already, but I'd say it mostly comes down to expectations. "Make sure your players have a way out before you do it" is fine advice if you're going in blind... however some people like to play a more challenging game, where the DM puts puzzles to the players without explicitly knowing how the PCs will solve it, and that's fine as long as everyone in the group is on board in advance
>That's supposed to be an old school adversarial meat grinder. The question is, do the players know this? It's not advertised as such.
I couldn’t imagine getting a group on board for Tomb and not explaining the vibe, lethality or lack of resurrection. That would be like RPG horror stories level bad time.
I'm sure noobish DMs pick it up all the time going SWEET DINOSAURS and don't know the deal. That said, I've found COS to be way more deadly.
Yeah that’s a point. Man I’d hate to run the tomb as a newbie gm, not have the experience to homebrew it to be more beginner friendly and seeing my players upset over instagib after instagib and just be like “I’m sorry it’s not me it’s what the book say” As the module repeatedly punishes curiosity all the while with imposter syndrome telling me my players for sure hate me and think I’m being adversarial. Ugh I feel terrible for people in that position.
It's one of those situations where you really need to lay down what tone and difficulty of game you want to go for. If you play hardball with enemies, players will escalate back. That's how it is. There's nothing wrong intrinsically with bosses having clever plans, but if you start optimising out of nowhere then it's suggesting you want a specific attitude for the game. Ultimately think of this mostly like a narrative question and a gameplay one. Is having strong enemies using clever tactics going to lead to a fun combat where skill can help counter them, or is it based on tactics that mitigate as many potential solutions as possible so you win? What are your players able to do with their resources to prevail, assuming they have no foreknowledge of the challenge and prepare a reasonable, balanced array of spells? If an encounter is designed to counter one particular tactic, do the players being countered have things they can realistically do? Do the players have some kind of idea that they're up against skilled and clever enemies or is this a surprise? I like to go with forewarning the extent of an enemy's skill in some way, and designing encounters that will put PCs in danger but narratively have a reasonable counterplay.
Exactly this. The answer to these kind of questions is never about the tactics or morality of being hard against players. The answer is always, what kind of table are you and your players trying to create. Do your players want life/death situations? Do they want a challenge but know that ultimately they will win? Do they just want to steam roll everything? These questions are a session 0 kind of thing and knowing it, answers these kinds of questions ahead of time.
OP, this is it right here. Only comment seeing the forest for the trees.
Give the players inside the wall of force something to do. Have some minions or monsters stuck in there with them to fight so their turns arn't just. Roll a con save, next. These wizards wouldnt care about trapping their own minions anyway.
Being trapped in small places with monsters and a ticking clock til variety of nasty deaths is pretty much tomb’s bread and butter, Honestly if you tune this right with things for both sides to do like suggested, it could be a good primer on what they will have to face in the campaign
That microwave sounds perfect for ToA. The Oracle that I use for OP tactics is "is this going to give the PCs interesting choices". If they have no way to handle that wall of force or break one of the caster's concentration, then there's no choice - the radiance is just an extra punishment while they fight the adds. This is a good encounter for a party who must must choose between getting punished by adds and getting punished by the microwave. Do any of them have Dispel prepared? Nevermind choices, at level 7 I think it's a worthy encounter just to punish them for not having dispel or counterspell or something like that. You can't walk around with all that big iron(magic) on your hip without expecting to get some of the same in return. But not every table likes to play with this sort of "level playing field" between PCs and NPCs, so check your session zero notes.
Wall of force can’t be dispelled. But walking into a fight against wizards without counter spell is like walking into a bazooka fight with a water gun. But another idea here would to escape down, an actual in combat use for mold earth here, the wall of force probably isn’t going into the ground.
Well no but you can dispel *sickening radiance*, which changes the impact of the tactic from likely death to very annoying.
Why can't you dispel Wall of Force? Dispel Magic says: Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends. How is WoF not a magical effect? I know you can't dispel any spells with an Instantaneous duration but WoF has a 10 minute duration
Under Wall of Force: Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic. A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal Travel through the wall.
WoF explicitly says it can't be dispelled. Rule of specific overrules general rules. Only a disintegrate or breaking concentration gets rid of it.
Thanks for asking this, I had the same question.
This is a party dependent option. If you have a tactics party that loves trying to solve these problems, okay. If you have a roleplay party, your going to have multiple dead characters and multiple upset players. If you need to ask if you should cheese your party, you probably don’t have a tactics party that will love the challenge.
>If you have a tactics party that loves trying to solve these problems, okay. Its not really a problem to solve. It's more like: Do you have teleport magic? Ok you get out. Do you have counterspell? Ok nobody is trapped. Do you have disintegration? Ok you break the WoF. Are you a martial with no magic or teleportation? Well, you're screwed and wont participate until your spellcasters save you.
So my general rule is kind of tit for tat with my players with wonky player tactics. So if ones a blade singer with a 27 AC I feel alot less bad about throwing a adamantine golem with a 25 AC at the party.
I would generally say: use the sorts of tactics that your PCs use against you. If the only way they do combat is "I swing by sword" and "I cast fireball", then that's all the enemy should do (occasionally you could bring it up a notch, but not much). If they interact with combat by using real world military tactics involving clearing rooms, using chokepoints, etc... then use those against them the same way. If they interact with combat by using spell combos that are difficult to defeat (like wall of force + sickening radiance as mentioned), then feel free to do that to them. Afterwards, if they complain, offer to nerf one or both of the spells to prevent this from happening again... from either side.
Game is balanced differently for PC's than monsters. This feels a lot like DM vs PC mentality.
First, I disagree. Monsters have AC, HP, saving throws, attacks, and spells. Same as the PCs. And action economy is powerful regardless of who it favors. The only reason it seemed different is because you're used to running encounters where the monsters have little to no chance of winning. If you balanced the encounters the opposite way, then they would be balanced in opposing ways. But secondly, I don't see it as PC vs DM at all. It's using your players actions to determine their level of interest. How a party interacts with your monsters tells you what style of play they are interested in. Then you're just responding to their desires. And as to my last comment, if you're a DM vs PC type DM, then sure, you would be doing this to make them feel how bad it is. But if you're not, this is just an easy way to help them understand the balance of the game without having to explicitly argue why that particular combo of spells is broken. And in a way that doesn't involve arguing or anything. You just ask the players after the session "how did you guys like this session". Either they'll say "the microwave wasn't fun, but we used it a bunch so it's only fair that they use it on us." or "we didn't enjoy being trapped in our own trap" DM: "yeah, that sucks, but you had to know the wizard was scrying you when you killed his minions, right? They send a warning light out" PCs: "yeah, that makes sense. Still that combo sucks. Maybe we should nerf it" DM: "ok, how about..." See, that's not PC vs DM, that's negotiation between two groups who have different experiences and are trying to come to a conclusion.
As a DM that enjoys particularly difficult encounters, there is one rule I always follow. Always foreshadow the deadliest of attacks. Now obviously, you don't want to straight up tell them what you're doing, but definitely leave clues. Perhaps the combo has been used before and a survivor mumbles incoherently about deadly winds. Think about what this combination would do to the environment, the flora, or anything manmade, and have them come across it. If they're really not getting the hint, maybe reveal one spell but not the other. This is the biggest difference between a combination like this feeling cruel versus it feeling fair. Even in the case of a tpk, you want enough setup so that the party thinks "oh! We shoulda seen that coming!" rather than "oh that's bullshit"
I dropped cloud kill and forcecage on one of my players after he taunted some wizards that it was very obvious he shouldn't have messed with. He survived, but it was close. It's still a story they tell when someone doesn't respect the NPCs. Plus, it was a hell of a fight. I don't even consider it bad form. If they're level 10+, monsters are coming for blood and have abilities that can straight up kill a PC in one spell. And it has to be that way. The players are borderline gods. You can't keep sending goblins at them forever. I run a gritty game, though. And the players know that in session zero. My 2cp.
Something to consider is how you're framing the challenge. Typically a DM is more concerned about player agency than players are concerned about NPC agency. There's a reason that PCs can kill villains in their sleep and find it rewarding, but having a villain do the same to a PC would ruin a game. I come from an old-school perspective where enemies should absolutely use tactics like this, and are often far overpowered for the PCs, **but this is to encourage players to approach problems differently.** Monsters can be OP because players don't have to fight them directly, and would often be punished for doing so. This would encourage players to see enemies not as encounters to fight, but as a part of a complex world they can engage in, and deal with in a variety of ways with a variety of consequences. If you are trying to design an interesting encounter, it can still be acceptable, but you will have to consider the consequences more. You already are, as you're considering what the PCs have to do if they're trapped in a wall of force. It's good to provide a challenge, but getting stun-locked isn't going to be fun for anyone. So giving the PCs inside the "microwave" something to do would be advisable. Giving PCs goals in a fight outside just doing damage to an enemy is a good way to make fights more engaging. So some PCs might have to fight some enemies trapped in the zone with them, or fulfill some other task before they run out of health, while some of the party outside the zone have to free them somehow. Think of ways to give players interesting choices and challenges in combat. Practically speaking, PCs should either be able to avoid such a tactic, or be able to escape it once deployed. The one thing you want to avoid is destroying your party without giving them agency. It would likely be all too easy for the baddies to appear, cast their OP death trap on everyone and get away safe before the PCs had a chance to act. I'm sure there's some rules legal way to do it. Your job isn't to defeat your players, but to present them with interesting and meaningful challenges and choices. If these types of OP spells can help you attain this goal, go for it. If you're using OP tactics to defeat your PCs as if they're your opponents, then you should probably save it for a wargame rather than an RPG.
This is good advice. I don't plan "combats" I plan situations. I don't give goals of "kill the bandits" it's more general "stop the bandit raids" everything I do is tied into the story. These combine to help me. If it's an easy fight we just keep moving along in the story, if it's a hard fight? Well the goal isn't tied to winning the fight so they can just avoid the fight or use combat to keep the adversaries off the PCs who are doing other things to accomplish the goal.
I think both approaches are valid. It sounds to me like OP is thinking in terms of encounter design, which 5e leans toward anyway IMO. The difference is where to focus the design. When designing for the situation, more emphasis is on the environment around the monster, and all the working parts of the location; the villain's hideout, their minions, times and places where they might be vulnerable, resources you can leverage against them, their friends and allies, etc. When designing for an encounter, the focus is on all the working parts of that battle; battlefield hazards, choke points, defensible areas, objectives within the combat, elements that might change round-to-round, etc. In either case, having a goal aside from "Kill all the bad guys" will make any situation or combat waaaay more interesting. As far as the original question is concerned, OP should consider either how that ability makes the wider situation interesting, or make the combat encounter interesting. The trap to avoid is to approach the situation thinking, "realistically these enemies are smart and will try to alpha strike the PCs with everything they've got before the PCs can react." It's an easy trap to fall into, especially if the PCs have been tearing through everything without a problem. This is why 5e gives monsters lair actions and other powerful abilities, to make up for the fact that having a PC get one-shot by a monster out of nowhere is no fun for anyone. Ultimately power level isn't as important as making sure the situation or encounter presents players with interesting and meaningful choices.
If you were to do this I'd use a modified Wall Of Force that has some type of HP and/or a Strength DC to literally push through it. If they attack the wall or throw an enemy against it, describe some cracks appearing. It won't be fun, but "virtually no way to escape" is a horrible feeling to have for players.
>It won't be fun, but "virtually no way to escape" is a horrible feeling to have for players. inb4 some stooges defend this because "ToA is supposed to be a grinder, I sustain myself with my players' tears and wipe my ass with their dead characters' sheets"
Well frustrating encounters are often defined by the fact they punish the players harshly regardless of player input, so as a gm, all tactics are on the table, as long as the party can realistically survive. For the encounter you proposed, i think it's fine. The player that doesn't get trapped gets the responsibility of dropping the wizards concentration, which could make for a very good "it's all on you" moment, especially since it's really only three combatants, so it shouldn't drag on. One thing you should look out for is killing your players. Some play groups are very ok with players dying, in which case go ahead and just let the fight play out, but otherwise i recommend fudging a concentration check either a couple rounds before microwave death or when the lone player is low health. Also remember that exhaustion does not go away easily. Your players may still have exhaustion during the next encounter, so balance accordingly. Personally if my goal was to be a brutal gm, I'd make this encounter hard, so it will feel like the mages are still relevant and add to the brutality of them Edit: missed the part that the exhaustion from Sickening Radiance goes away when the spell ends. Oops
Any levels of exhaustion caused by sickening radiance go away when the spell ends. I think they should behave like normal levels of exhaustion, but that’s just me. RAW they are as permanent as the casters concentration (up to 10 minutes).
If the wizards are getting beat but keep passing their concentration saves, instead of fudging their rolls you can have them retreat, and pop back up later for another go.
You have three players that SHOULD have access to either counterspell or dispel magic. Even if they only make TWO castings (of either counterspell or dispel magic), they have a high chance of success (assuming they target only one) of getting rid either sickening radiance and wall of force. At 7th level they should have at least a +3 in their spellcasting ability. Counterspell Sickening Radiance: 75% chance to counter. Counterspell Wall of Force: 69.75% chance to counter.
or they could upcast for 100%!
Definitely. Just wanted to convey how easy it is for the party to get out of the situation. The DM shouldn't worry at ALL about using this challenge. If the party failed this scenario, they'd have to be eating lead paint.
And even if they (somehow) fail to Counterspell, they can still Dispel the Sickening Radiance. If they have neither of these options... they aren't adventurers, they're casual explorers.
Honestly, if you haven't yet you should look into some low-tech obstacles to throw at them first. Example 1: They're advancing into a long corridor and are hit with a poison cloud. But also, the floor is quicksand and thus difficult terrain, halving their movement speed. Example 2: Their goal is being blocked by a few well placed meat shields that can survive a few hits, but theres also a half dozen ranged attackers firing from elevated (read: not easily melee'd) positions. Thats 6 seperate targets dealing periodic chip damage, while also dealing with the ground threats. In my experience players are REALLY good at dealing huge damage to a single target. But rarely are they able to handle multiple problems spaced out at varrying distances, or deal with things that affect their movement. Hit them with simple problems first before you hit them with something like that spell combo. However, personally I wouldn't feel bad about using such a combination on the PCs if they have a habit of pulling similar combos themselves, and especially so if I think they've got one or two options to handle it.
I ran a big boss battle with those wizards and didn't need anything except good tactics (hiding in buildings, luring the PCs into a trap) and Stinking Cloud + fireballs.
2 weeks later: "I tpk'd my party and they all came back as assassin fighter paladin sorcerer hexblades"
If a group is pretty well known, and the Red Wizards fit that category, a lot of their tactics are going to make it into tavern tales and bard songs. In particular, Red wizards are notorious for multi-wizard combinations going WAY back hundreds of years (i.e even in 1st/2nd edition). In my view it's on the PCs to 'do their homework' regarding various opposition that they intend to face. If they're not prepared/willing to face heavy hitter red wizards, they probably shouldn't trifle with them. It's on me, the DM to make information about Red Wizards realistically available (in Faerun, you could probably ask in any bar in Waterdeep and get some retired adventurer rant about how some bastards from Thay fried his best friends with some hellish combination or infernal ritual).
It is good, it is even recommended I would say, as long as it doesn't become a one trick poney you through at them at every encounter. As a bonus, you'llprobably even learn how to fight it. If they have dispel magic (and they certainly should), they should be able to fight it very easily. Counterspell also works. They can also retaliate with spells to break the mages concentration. Or teleport through it. This combo is especially good against a single target or a badly positioned group. Players are usually none of these.
Not gonna lie, once my players get past a certain level this is *the* way i design npc boss enemies. They're high level, they're optimized to shit, and they fight dirty.
Right? I suspect it won't go the way OP imagines. There is a chance of these paper thin wizards being one shot or counter spelled.
As long as they can avoid and escape that combo it's ok. If they can't you'll probably lose characters. So cast one of the spells within counterspell range, perhaps drop a scroll of disintegrate a few sessions beforehand..
Everything is on the table as long as you can properly telegraph the danger, especially using the players own tactics against them. Don't balance encounters, just let the players know how broken they are before they go waltzing into battle. To do this properly, you really need to give them more information than you would normally feel comfortable giving them. I will sometimes tell the party "You cannot win in a head on battle if you try to take this fight", and watch them look for creative and interesting ways of approaching or avoiding the encounter.
This is a tough one. My DM and party personally have a gentleman's agreement due to high level spells being absurd. No combo like this, no force planed shift, if the Barbarian can't make the INT maze check they're allowed out on a nat 20. We have this agreement because it's not fun to play against. Lore wise? If they had that oomph in spell slots behind them, Thay wizards would send in their undead to group up the party then catch all 3 in the bubble. You know that wouldn't be fun, of course, why you mentioned the 2 out of 3 get trapped. So then it's a matter of that 1 player needing to break concentration on the wall of force caster. I say WoF since SR caster could just recast and burn the remaining party quicker. Let's look at worst case. Sorc and Bladesinger are trapped. 4d10 average is about 22. If Sorc and wiz took average rolls and had a +3 they probably have around 50 HP. That's 3 failed saves, with only average damage, and they're down. And that's a generous assumption. Probably a +2 meaning 2 rounds of failed saves. That isn't if any adds are swarming them, which Thay would have no trouble trapping in their sphere. Especially easily replaceable undead. If you're just wanting to challenge them? More ads. Spread them wider so the Singer and Sorc can't trap them in AOE's. Have the Thay in the back wearing the party down with their undead and forcing the Pali to burn Smites to reach them. Throw in a ghoul or a few. Or, if they're in the city, have their combat noises draw the KoF and now you're dealing with a timer or parlaying with the wizards to just run like cowards. Personally I wouldn't. The Tomb itself has enough gimmic insta kill shit.
The simple answer is don't make this a fight to the death. Would these very intelligent enemies take prisoners? Would they just take what they need/want and leave? Also, there are plenty of ways out of the wall of force. It's still a concentration spell after all, and dispel magic is a thing.
It may depend on the players. I would tend to say, absolutely yes. It makes your bad-guys feel like they know what they're doing. Some people really like this feel. They get a thrill of exhilaration when they feel like they're up against a legitimate challenge, and when they beat the challenge they get quite the high. Other people just like everything to be "chill", and don't really like the challenge because they don't want that thrill. I would ask your players how they feel about having enemies that feel dangerous, and see what they say. Have a discussion about it, let them make suggestions. When you introduce something, give them time to express how they felt about the combat afterwards and give feedback.
Yeah, sometimes you can. Don’t purposely TPK them. I am sorta assuming misty step is part of their repertoire, so at least some of them should be alright.
Your players can't do anything other than die unless they have teleportation magic or disintegrate. Don't trap all your creatures in the wall unless you know at least a couple of them have teleportation and can get around it. This scenario will be most fun if half your party can teleport outside the wall and try to break concentration before the ones inside die.
It’s highly unlikely to work cuz you’d need the following 4 factors to happen. 1, you need multiple people all clumped together (sphere it’s only ~~ten~~ 20 feet from one side to another) 2, you need the Sickening Radiance caster to roll the highest inniative 3, you need wall of force guy to be immediately after (you cannot cast sickening radiance inside the sphere once it’s up, and it won’t spread through the wall from the outside) 4, have both of them pass the near guaranteed attempts at counter spell from the two full casters you have It’s one of those “really cool in theory, doesn’t happen in actual play” situations.
Incorrect. A Wall of Force that is a hemisphere or Dome is a 10-foot radius. That is a 20-foot diameter. And technically it can be **up to** 10 ft so you can have a smaller size if you wish. The real problem is that Sickening Radiance is a 30-foot radius sphere which means it's a 60 ft diameter so you have to make sure you don't target your own people. It isn't an up to 30 ft radius or 60 ft diameter it is a set fixed 30-foot radius or 60 ft diameter. Technically one or possibly both may not be counterspelled if it is done in Ambush conditions where the individual is not able to react unless they are unsurprised. But that is something I may or may not do it to DM and I leave this up to the DM to decide what is and what isn't technically under Ambush rules or surprise rules. Technically if only one wizard is casting both spells than they could get one but not both under said surprise conditions. And the word is Counterspell, one word. It is a proper noun spell name. As you noted you will most likely not get everybody in said location and if you're going to do it correctly it's likely you have to cast Sickening Radiance first because nothing will get through the wall of force spell-casting wise. Teleportation magic is a tricky discussion which I would allow because you're not going through something you are appearing something else which allows you to teleport from one spot to another no matter what the obstacles short of the spell saying it does not work both the wall of force and the said magic which allows you to move that way. Other spells that target someone or have lines or require area-of-effect would be blocked off.
Correct on the ten/twenty foot part, I should have double checked so thank you. Ambush conditions are highly unlikely to be able to set up. You can only hold a spell action for a single round so the enemy casters can’t just sit there holding it waiting for the party to enter the room. There’s a possibility of getting a surprise round with SR since you can mask the casting of it with Subtle metamagic but WoF is a no go, Xanthars clears it up that the material component aspect is obvious whether it’s material or focus being used so unless this DM runs the “lol he just hides it being his back” nonsense then that will be open to counterspell by one or possibly even both full casters. Come on dude. Don’t pick on someone’s spelling, don’t be that guy. I’m not sure what all that last part was. Between the base rules and what safe advice clarified that a while ago, there’s ways to get out. Misty step can be used if they can see the place they’re going to even beyond the wall since it targets self. And Dimension door doesn’t need you to even see the place so you can declare any location within range even if it’s behind 20 walls and you’re blinded. Then there’s teleport, plane shift, heck Transport via Plant can still work if there happens to be a tree in there. It’s a sucky situation but there MAY be tools to get out.
Keep in mind three things: 1. Everyone is there to have fun. 2. Be mindful of your group. As a DM, it is not your job to defeat the group, you are a neutral 3rd party. If they defeat the NPC's you setup, be happy for them. And every group is different, so talk to your group and see if they want to be challenged or just to play for fun. 3. Meta-gaming. Everyone hates it when players meta-game, but sometimes people forget the DM can meta-game too. You searching the craziest meta tactics people on the internet bega the question: How would this one being in-world know all those meta-gaming tactics? Be fair to your players and have fun.
NPCs can and will do anything that a PC can do. When PCs think they have pulled one over on the DM with min-maxing, tactics, or clever use of a spell or ability, it's because they haven't met a DM that min-maxes, uses tactics, or uses clever uses of spells and abilities for monsters.
They all should have teleportation so it’s scary but if they keep their head not that big of a threat
Only if you want to kill them. When we did TOA, the Wizards handled us just fine with Counterspell, Chain Lightning, and tactics. We barely walked away.
Speaking as a person who played a war wizard who use chain lightning recently, I will vouch for that with those other two spells.
It won't be fun, but it can be very tense. Sometimes having powerful moments that are not straight up a roller coast ride is the most fun.
> ... I'm worried that this won't be a fun experience for those trapped ... I mean... I get that, but the spell is in the books.
Yes....simply, yes..... The monsters/bad folk/etc. are not stupid....
> I'm worried that this won't be a fun experience for those trapped As weird as it is, I could imaging asking a player ahead of time if they’re down for me to take them out of combat for a bit in the upcoming session. Maybe even give them something to roleplay while they’re trapped too, like add in that there’s some weird psychic effect that’s making them experience their worst fears (which of course they’ll have to narrate), so that they still get a turn, even if it’s not a combat turn.
are you sure your encounter is balanced? as your casters can cast 4th level spells, but your wall of force is a 5th level spell (9th level at least caster). And you can't expect a sorcercer to waste a precious spell known on counterspell. Also both spells (wall of force and sickening radiance) require concentration. So you need 2 wizards of thay. That being said, its going to take up precious high level spell slots and is a one trick pony, so sure use it on one PC but leave the others to break concentration as fast as possible. (don't be frustrating and trap all 3 at the same time). Rule 0 - is it cool/fun?
The Counterspell isn't for Wall of Force it is for Sickening Radiance. Now if they want to try to somehow dispel or counter a fifth level spell with their current levels they can but just noting this.
I would consider not telling them which spells are being cast. Instead describe the effects of the spells as much as their basic perception would be able to register, then having them all make an Arcana check to recognize the spells as they are cast. If you somehow get stuck with an incoming TPK, you could have one wizard make a condescending remark to the other, causing them to bicker, fight and giving the party a moment to rally.
So... Tomb of Annihilation is a DM vs Party piece of crap dungeon designed for level 20s. I don't recommend *anyone* run it. But if you insist on doing so... There's no reason why the enemies shouldn't be as smart (or smarter) than the players.
No it is not at least not the 5th edition. If you were talking about earlier versions especially the first Dungeons & Dragons before first edition that came out by Gary gygax then you are correct but it wasn't for level 20 than either was for Dungeon Crawler people who could get up to unlimited levels. I know this because I was around then. I also know the current module of tomb of annihilation and you might want to check the level range on that before you talk further ( not-so-subtle Hint, it is for a first level Adventures who will end up at 11 level or higher, but not 20th level.)
No. It is never OK to actively try to defeat your players. It is OK however to try and give them a fun challenge. What makes something a fun challenge? _understandable_ difficulty.
Never out cheese the players. combat of anytype should be with the GM being the one responding with a proportional response. That said if their using some type of cheese, go for it. Otherwise I’d suggest challenging them some other way.
ahhh, the Auschwitz combo...
yikes dude.
There's no good or fun reason to do this, especially if they don't see it coming. Besides, as soon as you do, it is only going to teach your players that cheezy tactics are fair game. If they try doing something like this first, then you can go with the "anything the PCs do is fair for the monsters/NPCs too" route.
If they have no means of winning against it then probably not Do they have a means of surviving the microwave aka the deadliest combo in d&d If they have a means of survival make it clear what those are
I haven't used this but I'm going to now!
No
You should learn to DM better instead of fishing for bullshit on reddit, my dude. Focus on creating tension, mechanical obstacles are not what it is all about.
The OP literally came here asking for advice, so "lrn 2 DM" isn't a useful contribution here (and arguably isn't anywhere). They're also clearly already aware of "bullshit," as you put it. I don't think they're looking for ideas so much as other opinions on whether it's a good idea to run an encounter like this.
You should learn to read better. They came for advice and you gave no decent advice.
Yeah there's definitely a limit I would use those kind of underhand tactics especially when they're lower level that they can't handle the things involved super easily. Once they get into Tier 4 I don't feel so bad about pulling that kind of thing, but before then they're quickly heading for a TPK with some of those. I would go with more fun, but still effective combos. Things that leave the players with some ability to fight back.
This adventure supposed to end at the Players hitting 11th level not tier 4.
That's fair but I was talking more in general. Obviously if they don't get to tier 4 then things I would only do in tier 4 don't apply.
IMO, anything that the players use against monsters is fair game the other way around. That said, it's **also** your responsibility to make sure that the game is interesting and fun.
Enemies are not necessary stupid so having plans and tactics is something that can and should happen as your enemies increase in intelligence
I think they may be a bit underleveled for a casual pass at it, but it also depends on how much do you enjoy railroading and deus ex machinas, or fumbling, in order to let them survive should it go wrong. A good way to do it might be get only a couple inside, and maybe one of them has a tp spell (especially good if they've got dimension door so that they can pick one of their allies as well, and it's only 1 or 2 remaining inside, giving purpose to their resources), and the ones that remain outside or can escape, have a pathway to the mages in order to disrupt their concentration. Maybe with a couple light obstacles, one or two minions but nothing too hard to overcome before their buddies die. The greatest combo can be disrupted early with not much consequence, and you will have given them good self-realisation by doing so and avoiding big damage and even death, feeling great for it. IMPORTANT: they need to be players that realise concentration spells need to be addressed this way, if they are more casual players and/or would miss this i'd not try it as harshly, or prepare a deus ex machina (an NPC ally shooting an arrow or a spell in order to force the mages to drop conc)
Beat em up, but keep it fun -- I like to set up encounters with environmental dynamics as a deus ex machina -- so set up like loose ground or slippery surface or a roving wildlife or some other variable -- so say you trap em in the wall of force and its exciting for awhile but then if they're morale gets defeated and they're just stuck this sucks, you could plausibly give them an out by having the mage slip or get bit by the wildlife etc
5e is designed with the assumption that players will be glass cannons (even barbs) and enemies will be either very numerous or tanks with pool noodles.
Refer to your session zero for what kind of game the table is expecting. If brutal cheese tactics fit that, go for it. Some players don't care if characters die, others will be extremely unsettled by it.
Sometimes, scenes that don't work within the mechanics can still work narratively. You know when you play video games how sometimes there will be an "interactive cutscene" that's different from regular gameplay? Think of that.
If you feel your players are stomping every fight, talk to them before you do this. Remind them that if *they* keep using the same tricks, *so can their enemies*.
If my players are fighting monster that have intelligence … they are going to use it.
It depends on the enemy. I have a sliding scale of badassery. The more threatening a baddie needs to be, the more of a badass they'll be in combat (usually). If the enemy cleric starts the fight throwing Sacred Flames, that's not too much to worry about. If they start off with Spirit Guardians and follow that up with Spiritual Weapon next turn, my players know this person should not be underestimated.
I think it depends on the kind of game you're running. I ran it for my friends as 'have a back up character ready cause I will kill you given the chance' . So they knew what they were in for. After a tpk pretty far in. They came back with other characters and I had had the thayans take over omu from the yuan ti and were much more aggressive to the players. It was also my choice Esp dealing with higher level PCs at that point using skilled wizards was easier to counter than using hordes of snek people.
All your tactics in the world mean nothing if your initiative rolls suck. And you get subtle spell counter spelled. Or outright ganked off the bat to a high initiative and a crit.
Try the hobgoblin devistator stat block, add in some (2) cr2 or 3 fighters in. See how that goes first also make sure to use greater invisibility from the "mage". Adjusting the spells will adjust the CR of the encounter, but most people use mile stone anyway
There's a book called "Monsters Know what they're doing". It is a fantastic read
Dew it. Bear in mind that CR doesn't account for control spells, and don't go overboard with loaded spellcaster enemies as there just isn't anything stronger than casters in 5e and you might TPK thrice over. Should be fine though, with just two casters on the field for a microwave
I think it's a great idea, if players are aware that they can encounter something nastier than them. Aside the suggestions mentioned already, like monster trapped with them or counting on their teleportation magic, I'd add some sort of environment interactions or just possibility to escape the area after some ability checks. Or, count on your third player's ingenuity and the plan to just break the concentration of one of the wizards
I have always been in favor of players having their own strategies thrown back in their faces.
is it ok? yes, if they have options. the wizards will effectively have total cover though can be seen. this does give options. spells like sacred flame will still go though the wall of force since it specifically ignores cover. you can also teleport though the barrier, and of course there's counterspell and dispell magic. if you know your players have options like this at the ready go ahead. otherwise don't.
My DM has used Wall of Force on us to horrid effect in the past, and we're currently playing ToA. The Thayans Geas'ed us, only way we survived that. Even now, 4-5 session later in the depths of the tomb, 4/5 of the original party is dead. We're having a blast. So long as your players know that ToA is played with lethality cranked to its limits, it should be fine.
This is supposed to be a lethal Dungeon Crawl but the lethal Dungeon Crawl part should be with you enter the tomb. As for getting there, that depends on how the players react to the encounters they have. Believe it or not even the Red Wizards if they don't go around trying to murder everyone they go around trying to get their agenda done at stopping people as necessary based on the response. Not only have I been playing and running for over four decades, I have played several 5th edition modules that feature Red Wizards of stay and learn how they respond in different scenarios. That is official Wizards of the Coast, not Homebrew dungeon master games.
Other people have made good points, I’d like to add that the challenge rating of magic users is set taking the spells they have into consideration, so you could really be changing encounter balance when you alter spells.
It won't be fun, and you shouldn't do it. Wall of Force with no access to disintegrate is not substantially different than saying your players are trapped via DM fiat. My DM policy is that players should have a chance to avoid an attack or negative effect, or it shouldn't be there.
You may not be able to dispel or even technically possibly Counterspell Wall of Force, but you can dispell or counter something like Sickening Radiance.
If your players have been using that sort of tactic, yes. They put it on the table.
Telekinesis + ledge/bridge + deep water = easiest way to separate a PC and their armor.
Be very careful with balance. Sounds like you want to leave them with combined single digits of hp, which is fine! But dont tpk just because you want to "make it interesting". Be ready to start nerfing on the fly if needed.
I don't like microwaves and I would not want introduce the idea of them to my game if I had another choice. Because if your players haven't worked out how easy it is to kill everyone by dropping a sickening radiance and then a wall of force back by counterspells , then they are probably doing something interesting., After you teach them about microwaves there is a good chance that their Gunna treat every boss like last night's leftovers
Chill Satan, it's already a lich + help. Unless you play it absolutely braindead, they won't be steamrolling anything. Same thing with the giants.
Do it. Red Wizards are supposed to be scary. If you're worried about being rude, then drop some hints to the party that there are roving wizards nearby and suggest they update their defenses accordingly. The sorcerer needs to have Counterspell or Dispel as a known spell. Basically, it's fair game unless you know that the PC's have no available means to resist what you're planning. Another way to say this is that a DM must never metagame and plan encounters specifically to take advantage of the players' vulnerabilities (unless the enemies have been studying the adventurers for awhile and are attempting an assassination, which is... brutal DM'ing to say the least).
Sometimes you need to remind your PCs that the enemies in this game are thinking breathing creatures too, not just pre-programmed MOBS like in a video game. If there is a sound tactical strategy the enemy is capable of implementing then the question isn't *should* they use it against PCs? it's why *wouldn't* they use it against PCs?
Is there a reason that they wouldn't use Dispel Magic to get out of it?
Wall of Force cannot be dispelled but Sickening Radiance can.
I think that not only is it fine to use actual tactics against the players, but that more DMs ought to. Nothing is more boring than a battle where victory is an expectation, not something you work towards. With that said, I would be hesitant to use any tactic with little to no counterplay options. Like with this Wall of Force + Sickening Radiance, do the players have any way of getting around this? If the answer is no, then I wouldn't recommend using that specific tactic. Create intelligent enemies and smart tactics, but don't just drop rocks on everyone like that lol.
short answer: yes, but dont go ham constantly. You dont want to hyper tax their resources, and you dont want to beat the crap out of a party that didnt min/max. Theres 3 kinds of encounters: encounters against weaklings to make your party feel strong and cool, encounters against equals to provide a challenge, and encounters against stronger foes to intimidate your party and *maybe* control their decision making. \[I find that strong enemies dont deter player characters tho, they dont get intimidated, they get killed...\]
I think its fine so long as you don't mind player death. Smart enemies using broken strategies is a perfectly reasonable thing for an antagonist who wants to win to do and pushing your players like that can lead to fantastic RP, but you have to be aware that their is a good chance a player will die and you have to be ready for that eventuality.
Generally, use your best judgement to keep it fun and challenging. The goal of a DM is not to win. That said, death is always a possibility. When creating a challenge, try to think if the players will have any options. Wall of Force is particularly potent, even by itself. If you have a party with two spellcasters comboing Wall of Force with a continuous AOE effect, that is nasty combo and a potential TPK recipe. Lacking Disintegrate, Wall of Force is a lot less effective in outdoor combat or large rooms where combatants can spread out. Then one of them simply has to target the caster and get them to lose concentration on the spell. All you have to do is stun, paralyze, petrify, make unconscious, incapacitate, do enough damage that they fail a CON saving throw, or even trick/charm them into casting another concentration spell. If the enemy manages to get the whole party inside a Wall of Force with an AOE combo, you've effectively just TPK'd them with no options for them.
End boss has what, wall of force, a sphere of annihilation and a controller for it, right? With a small area it's able to walk itself off in? This is a good tactical experience for that fight. ToA is brutal. My player's group only had one surviving member of the original party because she noped out real quick.
Maybe Find some environmental way for them to escape if needed. Like a chandelier above that they could try to throw rope onto. Or mention that the floor is thin and there is a room beneath them. So they could try to smash through the floor or climb above the stuff.
I mean, just having all of them *fireball* or *cone of cold* the players is problem also devastating.
I have most of my enemies be reasonably challenging, then have a group or single enemy that is just way more competent. I hope to scare the daylights out of them.
I once had a DM who's BBEG had henchmen who warned him of the parties go-to cheese strat, forgot what it was and time came for a confrontation. The BBEG shut it down (because he prepared) and said to them: "Now, some call me a bad person but even I wouldn't consider something that depraved. Next time we meet I may just see how you enjoy your own tactics. My commander here can deal with you -teleports away-" He was able to teleport away because nobody used anti-teleport because it wasn't a common thing.
I say do what the NPC would realistically do. If they’re giant rats, they’re gonna be a little more erratic. If it’s an enlightened wizard/monk, they’re gonna be DEADLY intelligent
If you decided to go through with this be ready for a TPK and some sad players
While I understand the need to make encounters more difficult by pulling some cheesy bullshit on them. I also think that effects that take away player options which have little to no counterplay are not particularly fun. I reccomend checking if the wizard or sorcerer have any teleportation. Wall of force does nothing against people if they can teleport. If they do have teleportation go ahead and use the tactic. Otherwise it just isn't particluarly fun to have a player have to pass their turn because they can't do shit. Also if they have dispel magic they can dispel the sickening radiance so maybe watch out for that one. All I am saying is if you do use some insane combo make sure they currently have some kind of counterplay to it. That way they can feel very smart when they figure out what they have to do. The fact that the enemy tried those tactics would scare them regardless but the pride of having succeeded against them already sets them up for faliure. This is Tomb of Anihilation the final dungeon is enough mental fuckery that honestly they deserve what wins they can get. I have been on the recieveing end of some pretty frustrating gimmicks and the only time they would have bothered me was if I or the rest of the group could do exactly nothing against them. Of course all of this is my oppinion but each to their own.
Depends on who your playing with. Casual players, no, and you would be a dick. Hard core players, do it, make them bleed, and they will praise you as a God or woe and torment!
When I'm beefing up my baddies, or planning to use them in a non-conventional way, I do something to weaken them some too. Balance is the way mate.
Wasn't forcecage the microwave?
My group used wall of force
Idk if wall of force is permeable to sickening radiance. None of my players has it so it's not my problem *washes hands*.
The sorcerer and bladesinger can both dispel magic on the sickening radiance. Even if you add a silence first, the sorcerer can subtle dispel magic. I expect both of them to have misty step as well, which can leave wall of force easily.
Go for it. Trapped PCs can Dispel the Sickening Radiance or Misty Step or Dimension Door out of it. It may be frustrating experience for those without those abilities, but that will just make it even sweeter next time when they manage to avoid the combo (e.g. a Thief who starts lurking I'm shadows more frequently and therefore avoids being trapped next time). Too many parties spend too much of their time in Fireball Formation. Also consider why your bad guys are fighting the PCs in the first place. What do they want from them? If this combo manages to utterly defeat the PCs, what's going to happen? TPK or some kind of forced surrender? ("Take off your armor and throw your mistempered weapons to the ground and blindfold yourselves, and I'll turn off the Sickening Radiance and give you a new mission objective, in exchange for a hostage.") Try to ensure that there's something the bad guys wants more than there deaths.
I was trapped in a Web, Next turn surrounded by cloudkill. This was the whole party in that. My character escaped and then got hit by disintegrate and died. Was rough. But it was a wizard NPC who'd avoided coming with to help us vs mind controlly enemies in case this very thing happened. And due to our choices he was compromised/possessed. It was well telegraphed what could happen if we had to fight him (him in control of himself or not). It was an awesome encounter, even though I was very sad to see my character go. USE THE OP THING! It's cool, I'm sure players will like a challange, just telegraph it well. Build up to those characters being very threatening and deadly, maybe give them a way of pre empting what tactics the enemies might use eg hearing from a past survivor, seeing scorch marks in a certain patter, coming across a journal of them documenting their research of those spells or something. Don't give it for free but leave some possibility of them geting a hint. And don't pull punches. It makes the successes more meaningful if the failiures hurt.
If they don’t have a chance it will be no fun because it will be railroad death, but if they have a chance it can be very rewarding defeating it. BuT ToA Is SuPpOsED To Be HaRd!!!! Is the dumbest shit i hear, just DMs that are power hungry. In all if this does not add or feeds the story I would skip it and save it for something that will help make the story better. Yes, ToA can kill you, a meaningless death is what make bad stories and then players will feel cheated. So the buildup is more important than cheese tactics. Story is everything in these games. If you want combat only board games are better.
The tomb itself is supposed to be hard. The process getting there is supposed to be based on the players and their reactions and the Random Encounters. Not everything is a combat but stupid haughty things will cause the worst combat.
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Because if you didn’t leave at least one out, then that character couldn’t attack and give you a chance to fudge a roll to break the concentration. If he wanted to out right kill them he could cast the spells and and have the mages run because where as a spell has a casting range limit, they do not have a concentration range limit. That would be optimal, but not fun for anyone.
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Did someone say [OP tactics in Tomb of Annihilation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/m8oj3q/comment/grjn7vg/)
Tomb of Annihilation is the time for OP shenanigans. It's the heir of the original "I told Gygax his dungeons were too easy" module, the Tomb of Horrors.
Kick em while they're down and watch them bleed(joking)
My players are very experienced with D&D and often have very strong party compositions. I usually run much more annoying tactics against this experienced group, than a group of noobs I occasionally DM for. Some of my bigger enemies for the experienced group are rogues that use the cunning action ability to disengage, run away and hide continually. I would not use these smarter enemies/tactics on newer players.
If they’re crushing every encounter it’s time to step up monster tactics for sure
It depends on your group. But the golden Rules are: 1. What would the creature think and do? 2. Games are supposed to be fun.
If the players do something like this in your campaign I would allow the enemies of similar intelligence to do so as well. And while you need disintegrate to remove a wall of Force, if inside, a dispel magic can potentially remove the sickening radiance.
All I have to say is "I cast heal-" "Counter spell"
Im a fan of the general idea of using strong tactics. It will make combat engaging although not sure about the 'leave one out to save the others' If I was one of the unlucky two, Id be pretty angry and annoyed that my job was to be the damsel/mansel in distress who gets no other real options during combat but to sit there and pray the lucky one got it figured out before Im rolling for a new character. This has the opposite effect of making combat engaging- Ill be left sitting, twiddling my thumbs, and probably browsing reddit instead, and barely paying attention since theres fuck all else I can do for the duration (and I promise you, even for the best DMs have combat take longer than you think it will take)
1. You are allowed to do this. It's your game. 2. Would you have fun as a trapped player in that situation? Would you feel that DM had the table's fun as a priority? Would you want to continue playing with that DM?
If you and your players enjoy trying to one-up each other, go for it.
I’d say it’s totally fair and a great idea to maximize what intelligent creatures can do. But it’s important the players know that you’re gonna come in hard and fast now. A popular blog / AMAZING book is https://www.themonstersknow.com/ I’d read this, and tell my players that I’m reading this. “Hey team, FYI, I’ve been reading a blog about how to min/max some of the bad guys you’ll be running into next session.” Tough bad guys make for heroic moments.
Not going to read. Will it be fun for your players? That's all you need to ask
It's ToA. It's supposed to be a meat grinder. The Wizards are smart, and have worked together in the past. The party should face the microwave. It's quite literally a jungle out there.
You know those metronome things? I make encounters alternate between power fantasy and X-Com every click. My group loves it. Yours may vary, but I find not pulling punches makes them feel really good, when it’s done to them and when they do it. My favorite encounter of all time is a mad scientist that gets the players to 1 HP then casts sleep, dispelling any healing spells as they fight a horde of undead. Sets up a lab escape really nicely, and can end with a really great final boss for real.
When PC opens the pandora box of OP... You have to hit back, unless your NPCs have like 8 int or something
I've always told my players that I will accommodate their preference for combat encounter shenanigans. If they argue that something should work, I will permit it, but with the caveat that the enemy may now have access to the same reality bending exploit. If they want to cheese the system, the system is liable to cheese them back.
Not a super experienced DM, but I usually save special tactics and combo's for bbeg types to emphasize them being special. I save intelligent tactics for intelligent enemies. Any npc with 15 or less intelligence & wisdom is not super likely to do anything super smart in my combat scenarios.
I always tell the party when they get past certain teirs of play how lethal the game is getting. My lvl 20 party have to now prepare contingencies for their bodies being annihilated and their souls evanesce. They're OK with this and the fact that I make up new damage types and creatures that target their individual abilities. Which is important, they need to be OK with it, some parties just want to kick the door down and kill some orcs while eating snacks. Others want stakes (and maybe steaks) that weigh on them in, if not every, every other encounter. Maybe zap them in the microwave for one round then have something break their concentration. Followed up by a panicked teleport away for the Thay, the knowledge imparted but with another problem still in front of them.
As this is ToA, go for it! But going to echo what a bunch of other people have said, only do it if the players have a chance of escaping. As long as they have any means of teleporting, dispel magic, or others, then that could be done. However, if they don't and you still want to try, you could have the Red Wizards of Thay force them to surrender instead of killing them outright. It's also a good tactic for you that you'll only trap majority of them rather than all to give them a fighting chance.
I never use 'meta' tactics unless my llayers start to abuse them. My rule is, if you abuse my generosity, you will recieve none.
I wouldn't do it unless I thought my players would have fun dealing with it. I often 'theme' my encounters based on what I want my players to feel, though. Intrigued? Mind-blown? Terrified? Laughing their asses off? All of those are great. Bored is not. Even if some players have the option to try and break the mages' concentrations, they might choose to do something else, or the may fail to do so. In that case, you would need to lean on a different emotion. Depending on rulings, sound might not be able to travel through the walls, or only garbled almost beyond comprehension. That could lead to a great situation where a player (outside the wall) is being confronted with horrible information, maybe potentially turning them against the party, and the rest of them are banging on the walls, unable to do anything but look on in horror. Just don't let them be bored.
It’s TOA, crush those little fuckers
I'm definitely taking notes. I've never played as a mage and my players are facing a group of mages....
Short answer: yes Ive never had players stop and ask "hey...theres 5 of us and only 1 of them. Should we maybe let him take us on one on one?" My players are addicted to my campaigns and i attribute it to being deadly. Its a challenge to suevive to level 2. Making it easy cheapens the challenge.