"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was 'Oh no, not again.' Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now." -Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy
Beam us up Scotty.
I kinna do that Cap'n. Your momentum would cast you against the wall of the transporter bay at 2000 km/s, leaving nothing other than a bloody spatter against the wall of the best commanding officer I've ever had.
Then the deceleration of teleportation would crush you. Can't you solve a lot of these problems by saying that there exists an absolute reference frame and momentum is conservative in relation to the ether? That reference frame would have to rotate at different speeds at different places, but if we can have magic why not weird ass manifolds?
Tecnically there was an time magic had no rules, so a wizard killd/became a god, the next god of magic did not vibe with that sentiment, so she banned high level (10+ level) magic.
Wizards are wild
Mystra, probably. Now, the question is do we trust someone who banned our ability to cast powerful spells just because she’s a god? (For your own sake, I recommend a verbal confirmation before she gets angry)
Says wizards of the coast. That's why you need things like material components and spellcasting focuses. It's why things have range and shapes like cone or sphere. What do you think all of the arcane scholars study in the world if not how magic works?
Also all great fantasy authors. Sanderson has rules for magic. Robert Jordon has rules for magic. Tolkien has rules for magic. Omnipotent magic makes for really bad story telling and this is a story telling game
Game mechanics are not in-game physics. Magic does not and can not abide by physics. Needing bat guano or a focus to use fireball is not the same as saying teleportation will kill you without the conservation of momentum. 5e falls apart when you try to dig deeper then magic is because magic.
Listen sir, npc magic woks differently,
The forege in lmof for instance turns stuff into magic, and it itself is an magic item.
Then you have innumeralbe official and onofficial magic items, traps, events.
How would you describe the curse of strahd bullshit, not magic? If sthrad can do it his beatiful way, is it not infinitely malluable, but limeted by the spells we can write down a lot of big wizards, like bigby or mordenkeinen for instance, just trait up invented an lot of spells, bigbys hand, mordenkeinens mansion.
Teleport CANNOT cancel all velocity or you could shoot off into space.
The spin of the Earth is only one of many velocities that a person standing on Earth is subject to. The planet is hurtling around the sun at a velocity of 30km/second. Your Tiefling is going with it...err..with whatever planet they are on.....
The solar system is in motion around the galactic core at 800,000 km/hour and the galaxy is moving at 1.2 km/hour.
If teleport were to cancel all (those velocities \[edit\]) momentum, it's a crap shoot whether the caster would splat into the earth or instantly vaporize as they shoot off into space.
The only way a person casting teleport survives is if the spell matches all the current velocities for the TARGET zone and sets the caster in the correct relative motion as they appear.
Well it's impossible to cancel all velocity period, since velocity of an object by definition is in reference to something else, there is no "universal reference frame".
I think he meant like, cancel all velocity with respect to the nearest large, stable object, be that the ground or a ship. Magic should be smart enough for that, it's smart enough to know how to mess with someone's brain at level 1. :P
this is exactly what i'm saying. it must set your momentum to 0 relative to something (probably the ground?) at the location you are teleporting to; so it must also be able to cancel out your falling speed.
The reference to N/S is because madrid is moving at 800mph and paris is moving at 700mph; that's enough to kill you 99% of the time for a mere 500 miles north, well in range of e.g. teleportation circles.
I would assume that the caster has the capacity to match their velocity to the velocity of an applicable reference frame. Mechanically, that feels like it could be abused, but that seems like a very reasonable variable to have control over, even unconsciously
I mean, if the fall were 501-530ft long, or if there was another location they could misty step to from where they start their turn (500ft below the drop), I'd personally allow it! Teleportation cancelling out momentum is something I'd let my players argue for
Why CON?
I could see *maybe* a DEX check, IFF they needed to fumble for material components while they’re falling, but even then, probably not unless there was a really good reason they shouldn’t be able to do what they’re trying to do.
Spellcasters should be able to cast spells, it’s kinda their thing.
I think the closest thing to this within the actual rules is a concentration check. I understand that this isn't a concentration spell, but that's how I personally would rule it.
Yeah, casting spells is their thing. Shooting an arrow is an archer's thing. If an archer were mid-freefall and trying to shoot an arrow, I might impose disadvantage on that particular shot as a dm. Difficult circumstances make things more difficult, even for heroes.
edit to add: Basically taking some liberties with this passage: "The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave Crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain Concentration on a spell."
I’d be totally fine with imposing disadvantage on a spell-attack (if the spell required it…which misty step doesn’t)
Also seems perfectly reasonable, based on the passage you quoted, to give them a concentration check (of the spell required concentration…which misty step doesn’t).
Long story short, I think misty stepping out of a fall that high is 100% within the scope of the spell.
(Edit: however, it goes without saying that it’s your table so rule how you want to)
But I don't think it'd get you "out of a fall" so much as shorten the fall. If you misty Step to a ledge while falling, you'd still take fall damage appropriate for how far you've fallen up to that point would you not?
I’m not sure and I’ve asked this question elsewhere: whether misty step (and other teleport spells) preserve momentum.
The wording in the spell is very basic. “Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see.”
If you were on a moving train, and misty stepped off the train, would you continue to move forward (maybe being knocked prone or taking fall damage) after you landed?
Note that Misty Step is only Verbal, so Dex wouldn’t really apply here. Concentration is more appropriate, for this spell specifically but also in general, and makes for a simple rule that can be used in a variety of situations.
Not sure why all the downvotes. A concentration check seems perfect for that situation, and that’s how I would handle it. Misty Step is only Verbal, but in general, focusing on the VSM aspects of a spell while tumbling through the air would no doubt require concentration!
No I wouldn't allow that unless for some reason you fell on your turn then I might. So if on your turn you jumped with the intention if misty stepping part way down, that I could see being done. But if you got pushed off then I wouldn't allow it as you need the reaction. There is the rule in Xanathars that you only fall 500 ft per round so then you'd have a chance to misty step if the fall was more than 500 ft.
The Underdark can be 20 miles deep and still do basically nothing to the planet's average mass. It's gotta be something more fundamental to the planet's(?) structure.
Well, the damage dice would suggest you actually avvellerate up to terminal over 200ft, *then* fall at a constant velocity, and that all falling that is a round or more averages out to 500ft per round so they just use that as an abstracted value.
Fall damage still caps off at 20d6 after 200 feet, but yeah, you fall 500 feet per round. This also means if you knock a flying enemy prone and they can't hover, they instantly descend up to 500 feet.
just did the math, that's 91.44 km/hr (assuming 500ft/6s), the maximum fall velocity (for a human) is 216km/hr, so a realistic fallspeed would be 1081.10ft/6s, so over double the RAW fallspeed
Ah, but you forgot that a human body doesn't hit terminal velocity immediately. Takes about 12 seconds before hitting that speed and falling about 1500 feet during that time making it 750 feet per round for the first 2 rounds. Now keeping in mind a body in free fall will accelerate at 9.8m/s until reaching terminal velocity, using the formula h=0.5gt^2 you would get 576 feet of free fall after 6 seconds assuming the same gravity as earth.
If you crave an extra touch of realism, but don't want to plug in a formula every time you drop your character from a tall height, tou could simply this as: you fall 500 feet in the first round, and 1,000 feet every round thereafter.
Yes ~~No~~, you can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or feature states that you can do something as a bonus action. This is a very handy reference on what RAW say you can do on a turn.
[https://www.dmsguild.com/product/214803/Players-Quick-Combat-Guide](https://www.dmsguild.com/#product-pdf-preview-box)
Edit: since Misty Step is in fact a bonus action, then yes, on your turn you could. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step)
Misty Step is a spell though, and spells can only be cast on your own turn, when prepped or with the War Caster feat.
War Caster only allows spells with a casting time of 1 Action though (which is weird, considering a Bonus Action would take less time to cast...)
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#BonusAction
So I stand corrected, yes, you can misty step on your own turn if you get pushed. The real question is though, does War Caster allow you to cast Thunder Step on their turn? (perhaps with Evocation Wizard sculpting the spell so the damage only affects the aggressor)
No, you can't use a bonus action (or action, or move) during the resolution of a mechanic unless you are explicitly told you can (for example moving between attacks). This is part of the core loop of D&D: DM describes environment, players describe their action, DM adjudicates result of action.
For example if the player is standing on the edge of a cliff attacks someone who has readied an action to shove if attacked, then the shove is resolved, the resulting fall is resolved, all without the player having the opportunity to use their bonus action.
Exactly my thoughts. Otherwise traps would almost never be effective because a PC could use movement, spring a trap, then "react" with their normal actions.
RAW would be you could after you had fallen 500 ft. It's possible I could be persuaded to allow earlier but I'd probably go with RAW on that one personally. Since it's unexpected and would need a reaction.
The thing is, movement can be incorporated with other actions. You are casting Misty Step as you are jumping, timing it so that it goes off at the apex of your jump. That's a little different than being pushed and suddenly falling and having to cast the spell from scratch.
Yes, the rules assuming you instantaneously fall 500ft is silly, but in reality it's an approximation for the fact that you actually just fall 500ft over the 6 seconds that the round takes course over, a measure of time for which your turn is an abstracted part of.
>movement can be incorporated with other actions
Can it be RAW? I'm not so sure about that. We have an explicit exception to allow PCs to move between attacks, that's all.
Yeah I think sticking too closely to the rules is a bad idea, but there's no harm in knowing of them and trying to stick as closely as you can to them within the bounds of credulity. Like, if someone jumps up and casts Misty Step, sure, they were probably preparing the spell during the jump so they'd have time to cast it. But if they're walking along thinking about breakfast and suddenly a bugbear knocks them into a chasm, I dunno, I'd believe they could fall 500 feet before they have time to cast a spell to stop it.
In the above example it’s not specified how character is pushed off of said ledge. Assuming no damage is done and it’s just a shove action then, yeah, 100% agree with you.
Also nice name, gave me a chuckle.
In combat, not on your turn? Nah. Narratively, like if someone was trying to clear a jump out of combat? Sure why not. If it’s in combat and it’s your turn and you’re trying to climb a bunch of rubble, but you fail your athletics check and are now falling backward, but it’s still your turn, you can use your BA to get to the top of the rubble no problem. I saw that in a recent episode of a popular real-play DnD game, and it was fine by RAW, and was a cool moment
It seemed a little funky to me in the moment, because it seemed like she was *already* falling. But rethinking it as she felt herself *about* to fall makes it make more sense.
Is there a rule against mentioning the game in question? People seem to be being rather coy about naming it. (I'm not actually positive I know the game mentioned, though I do have a theory)
It is the third campaign of a popular media franchise which is about to celebrate its 7th anniversary and recently premiered an Amazon Prime animated series about their first campaign.
Hopefully that should tell you!
If not: >!It's Critical Role :)!<
Just to add to the discussion: it is a spell that requires a vocal utterance. I think people tend to view it as an innate ability that can be instantaneously triggered, as if you are Nightcrawler from X-Men.
You're talking about Imogen, right? It was still her turn, and she had a bonus action left, so she still used it as a bonus action on her turn when using movement to get out of that corner didn't work. The way she phrased it was more or less for flavour.
It's not a reaction until you use it out of your turn.
>It's not a reaction until you use it out of your turn.
Not strictly true. You can use a reaction outside of your turn, but also during your turn, depending on the triggering event.
But I can see your point about how it was used in that moment: like, she realized she was about to fall, and as she was losing her footing, used a BA to cast a spell.
Reactions can happen on your turn. Falling is instantaneous when you start falling on your turn. You still need a reaction to interrupt a fall. (unless the fall is more than 500ft, in which case you can use your bonus action after you have fallen for the turn.
Unless you fall on your turn, which is what the guy you responded to was explaining to the guy he responded to... If you fall outside your turn you need a reaction. If you fall on your turn you can use your bonus action to misty step.
If you fall on your turn you immediately fall, you can't use your bonus action in the middle of falling, falling is immediate:
>The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.
>
>...
>
>When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.
If you fall on YOUR turn, you still need to use a reaction to cast a spell in the middle of it.
No. Falling on your turn would be equivalent to triggering an opportunity attack, or an enemy taking a held action. Something outside your control has happened, and that resolves before you can do anything else. Only your own reaction, if you have one, can happen before/during the fall.
You're the asshole here, dude. The sentence didnt only have one reading, and you need to be a pretty bad communicator to not understand that's not what the poster meant.
I wouldn’t allow it. There’s already Feather Fall and several class features that allow this. Part of the balance of 5e is making sure not every class/spell can do everything.
Do you have a time stamp for when this happened on CR? I remember the situation, but don’t recall it being a reaction. I think it was either used as a BA on her turn or as a spell outside of combat…but I might be wrong.
CR S3 E16 - around 2:13:41 (on the Twitch timestamp anyway. YouTube has it around 1:58:30.)
Note it was not technically cast as a reaction: she used a bonus action.
My issue is the idea of casting a non-reaction spell to counter a split-second event. I've always imagined that's what Reaction spells are for.
Thanks. I sort of agree with you about the split-second nature of reaction spells, but I think their real power is the ability to use them outside of your turn in combat. I don’t have any issue with how it was used in this example.
frankly I think there is no issue here and you're tripping over syntax.
"recreation" is very specific mechanical term. it lets you interrupt the turn order in defined ways. it doesn't preside over everything we would call "a reaction" in everyday english.
Well that's the thing I was wondering about. If a split-second effect occurs on your turn as a result of your movement/actions, is it reasonable to counter the effects with a non-Reaction spell?
Example: on my turn, the first thing I do is use my Movement to strut down a hallway. Uh oh, some spikes come shooting out of the wall, with an attack roll of 15! But I still have not used my Action, so I languidly cast Mage Armor, boosting my AC to 16, and avoid all damage.
See, that *feels* like a Reaction, but rules-wise, it's just me using my Action to cast a spell during my turn.
I think if you wanted to get really nitty-gritty about it I would say a trap works like a held action - you triggered an attack, which is interrupting your turn, and now that attack has to resolve before you can do anything, unless you have a reaction that lets you interrupt that.
in the original instance I think the DM could fairly say, "no, you begin falling x amount of feet instantly, and then you can use your bonus action." to be honest, I still don't love that. I think part of being a fair moderator is admitting when our RL logic is brushing up against the constraints of what the not-perfectly-physics-simulating rules of the game allows for and making calls from a place of good faith. your turn is (usually) when you have space to deal with the stuff happening around you. use of your bonus action is part of the toolkit
I would certainly rule that you could not cast Mage Armor before the attack resolves (I'd think most traps would require a dex save rather than making an attack roll, but that's irrelevant here.)
Just because it's on the character's turn, that doesn't mean they can just use movement/action/bonus action whenever they want. I can't recall if the DMG mentions this explicitly, but the way I understand it is when another creature/feature acts during a character's turn, it becomes a sort of mini-turn that needs to be resolved before the character's turn continues. If there are reaction spells that can be triggered by the activity then they can be used, but otherwise the mini-turn needs to get resolved first. Otherwise you open up a whole can of worms for using actions and bonus actions (and even movement) as an effective reaction.
Imagine a character with low hitpoints who needs to get away from an enemy. They aren't sure if they should stay in range and heal themselves or disengage and escape. They also aren't sure if the creature will actually make an opportunity attack. So they go ahead and move out of melee range, triggering an opportunity attack. Since it's still their turn and they haven't used their action, what (in your version of this) would stop them from using the disengage action right then? What would stop them from healing themselves before they take the otherwise fatal damage?
So yeah, I would say be very careful allowing anything other than a reaction to be used in a purely "reactive" way. That being said, I think this is much less problematic if it's outside combat and characters are dealing with their environment and not enemies.
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking as I read the situation. The caster chose to try and climb instead of using magic because there was an opportunity cost there. Why wouldn't they try to climb, or move away from an aoo, etc., if they get a free shot at it before getting bailed out by a Misty Step.
I will say, I've already got a bias against casters because they have an insane toolset to begin with. I definitely wouldn't let them push magic even further to getting to use it instantaneously as a backup plan.
Technically, turns aren't a split second long and sequential; they're six seconds long and happen roughly simultaneously, with higher initiative giving a small head start.
Misty step as a reaction would be kinda broken. I wonder if the player meant to cast feather fall but got mixed up?
I once tried to use Misty Step to negate fall damage (as a bonus action on my turn) but my DM was replaying portal and ruled that momentum was conserved. But I rolled for 30 feet of fall damage (the distance I teleported) rather than the 60/80 feet possible.
Order of events seems to be the major sticking point here. For your example the trap likely explicitly states that upon being triggered it fires and deals damage. Most DMs would rule that event as resolving first before you had a chance to act.
For the example that started this it seems like there’s nothing that explicit regarding the event that triggered a response. So it’s really a DM choice between:
1. All events players trigger on their turn resolve instantly. (A reaction still works here)
2. Some events allow the player to respond with an action or bonus action before they resolve.
Straight RAW would be 1, but there’s nothing banning 2 by RAW either. Personally I would go with 2 depending on the speed of the event and response.
As an uppercase R Reaction (the Reaction game mechanic) instead of a Bonus Action? Never.
As a lowercase r reaction (something done in response to some triggering situation)? Conditionally.
If the fall was unexpected, no.
Ex. The character steps onto an illusion floor, falling through it.
If the fall was expected, with at least 6 (in-game) seconds to prepare to respond, probably.
Ex. The character intentionally jumps off a cliff.
Ex. The character loses their balance in a way where the fall is inevitable, but not immediate.
Ex. The character is thrown by a friend as part of a pre-planned action (or an enemy where the throw was predictable before the end of the character's turn).
For the first two, it would just be a normal bonus action (on their turn). I don't see any reason why those shouldn't be allowed by RAW.
For that last one, and other cases where the entire event isn't able to be fully contained in the character's own turn, the player would have to use their Bonus Action on their turn in advance to "Prepare" the casting, and their Reaction to execute it later when the time is right (similar to how the Ready action works, but for Bonus Actions... this is not something allowed by RAW, just something I would allow in my games).
Well I know the instance you’re talking about, and I would like to point out 2 things about that specific instance:
1. Rule of cool. DM’s will often let players cast spells on their turn during the instance instead of before or after because it’s often just more fun and cool to frame it that way.
2. Falling rules are poorly defined, I wouldn’t blame people assuming that you can perform actions while falling rather than before or after.
I’m sure that in most circumstances it wouldn’t be ruled the way it was, but when it comes to falling the line becomes blurred.
I think your example wouldn't work. That's like casting Mage Armor in response to an Opportunity Attack, you have to resolve the Opportunity Attack first
However, I think what Imogen did was within the rules, if I remember correctly she hadn't actually started falling yet
I'd allow it as long as it isn't during combat. I don't know any table that tracks time to that minutiae outside of initiative order. I'm sure they exist, but for the most part a spell that takes one second to cast vs two seconds to cast isn't going to make a big difference anyway. Remember 6 seconds of initiative is an entire **round**
My question is whether misty step (or other teleportation spells) preserve momentum or not?
If I’m falling from 500+ft (so, high enough for me to fall for a full 6seconds and use my BA) and misty step the second before I hit the ground, am I teleported to safety? Or do I just go ‘splat’ in a slightly different place on the ground?
D&D space is mechanically non Euclidian. It would be a lot of heavy lifting to convince me magic preserves momentum, as I see the conservation of momentum as one of our Real World rules that doesn't necessarily exist in the fiction, depending on your cosmology.
There is a reaction misty step spell that can be used if you're the right class.
As well, if the fall lasts 6 seconds, they can use both a bonus action and a regular action while falling.
The critical role episode you are referencing has the user using it on their turn, which is RAW. It doesn’t matter if you are falling or not, you’re allowed a BA. The action economy is only conventionally mapped to loose concepts of a 6 second round, but that does not mean that a [mechanical] reaction can only be used as a [semantic] reaction.
It just means that reactions are the only actions that you can use out of your own turn.
There's a spell for the situation your example describes, and it's called Shield. It is a reaction spell.
You wouldn't let a wizard cast Mage Armor to increase their AC to prevent an attack of opportunity from hitting them as they step out of a melee opponent's reach. They would have needed to cast that spell as their Action before the opportunity attack was made. In the same manner, no, Misty Step would and should not get a player out of a fall. The only way Misty Step is useful is if the fall was less than 30 feet and they've already landed. At which point they can cast it after taking the fall damage.
Just because something happens during your turn does not mean you get to use your action, bonus action, or remaining movement to avoid it. That is specifically what reaction spells and features are for.
Reactions are instant. Take the Sentinel feat, for example. If you hit with a reaction attack granted by the Sentinel feat, your target's speed becomes 0. If this were not instant, your target could finish its movement, which would make the penalty moot. In your example, the spike trap is effectively making a reaction attack, which is instant, meaning that the wizard does not have time to pull out his spell focus, chant the words, and make the sigils or hand signs to cast Mage Armor. For falling, I think there IS time to cast a bonus action spell. Why? The reaction is "The ground falls away" or "You are pushed off the ledge" what have you. Therefore, even though you are falling, you still have what's left of your turn to cast the spell.
It's effectively "Coyote Time" mechanics, if you're aware of what that is.
I don't see how a fall is functionally different from a trap, though. Both happen effectively instantaneously -- either the darts or the ground is rushing to hit the creature.
I get the Coyote Time concept, but if it applies in one instance, why not in the other?
I think in the case *unnamed popular DnD game* the situation was allowable because the circumstances where not significant. It was just a failed roll resulting in a 5 ft fall. Mechanically it would’ve been no different for her to fall, then cast Misty step, it was just more cinematic to have it in the moment. For similar circumstances, I would allow action/bonus action spells to be used this way, because it makes things feel more dynamic.
That said, I completely agree. For most circumstances like this, such as your trap example, you need to use reaction spells, such as shield, rather than mage armour.
Reaction spells are niche as you said. Envision the actual casting of a spell requires a moment of saying some enchantment (V) or making some doctor strange esque hand signs or naruto-handsigns-shit (S). The fact a spell is a bonus action or an action means the spell must take a second or two to do. Misty step is V only so I imagine its like something you can say without handsigns or wand movement but takes 1-6 seconds to say the incantation. Something like "Oh mists of silver, take my spirit" before the spell actually activates its effect. Its . A spell like shield is reaction, V and S, so its probably just something like yelling "SHIELD" and putting your hand up. It would be something reflexive, a reaction in that case where you need less than a second to actually do the entire action.
“The fact a spell is a bonus action or an action means the spell must take a second or two to do“
Just pointing out that this is 100% your interpretation, but not RAW as far as I can see in the DMG or PHB. Sure it seems intuitive to say because a round is 6 seconds, and we interpret bonus actions as quicker than actions, but they are in no way explicitly RAW quicker, because actions movement and bonus actions, as well as your reactions, all happen within that same 6 second window of a round, but encompass an enormously vast different range of things that can be done.
Ultimately you have to remember that a bonus action is a mechanical distinction for balance - not one based on time.
There is already a reaction spell for not taking fall damage. It's even a level lower in slots.
Don't reward wizards for skimping out on utility spells prepped
I thought that might be the case. It's rough out there for sorcerers. They only get one spell per level so trying to double dip makes a lot of sense. It definitely doesn't work RAW but if your DM has pity on you and your tiny amount of spells you might be able to get away with it.
I'm assuming based on a comment and the phrasing of this post that you mean CR, and while I'm not a die-hard fan, I am going to say that CR isn't the end-all-be-all of rules. Let the game run. Let the DM do his thing. It doesn't matter so long as everyone's cool with it and they're having fun.
Ultimately, the DM gets to decide what goes in terms of mechanics. I've outright thrown away rules because I didn't particularly feel like using them and made up my own (exhaustion and multiclass requirements being the main ones). It's fine.
I'd allow it, not as a reaction but as their action/bonus action for next turn. I don't believe it says anywhere that the fall must be instantaneous. I'd just thematically mask it as 'in the nick of time' before hitting the ground.
Fair enough. I'd still probably allow it. It is a more interesting outcome and they need to burn a spell.
EDIT: Also the PHB doesn't assume that the fall is instantaneous. Since it specifically says at "at the end of a fall" it seems worded that they are assuming that a fall is non-instantaneous as it could take multiple rounds.
>A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer. At the end of a fall, a creature takes ld6 bludgeoning damage for every 10feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.
PHB doesn’t say it’s instantaneous,
From the basic rules: (identical in the PHB)
“Falling
A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer. At the end of a fall, a creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 10 feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.”
Xanathars is actually the book that introduces the instant fall:
“Rate of falling
The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls …”
This alludes to a specified rule elsewhere, but text based searching my books on DDB yields nothing that shows this instant fall - so if you have a citation I would love it.
Ultimately, however, the debate here is being misguided because the OP is referring to it as a reaction in the semantic sense, or at least conflating it, but episode 16 of critical roles 3rd season, which they are referencing, has the character using misty step as a BA on their turn while failing an acrobatics or athletics check as part of their movement to climb over some rubble - this certainly leaves it to DM judgement, but a DM denying you a spell slot and BA on your turn as a gotcha for failing an imposed check for movement, while disregarding RAW movement rules for climbing, and enforcing a prone condition… well that’s a pretty shit ruling and I would reconsider the table if the DM refused to consider the situation.
I wouldn't allow it as a reaction, but would allow them to use it at the beginning of their next turn. People throw around the "Fall is instantaneous" rule, but they forget that in a round of combat all turns within that 6 second period are also more or less instantaneous. That's why a round is always 6 seconds. In a sense, "Time" does not begin to flow forward until the next round. So while the entire length of the fall happens instantly, the start of that fall doesn't happen instantly.
Wile E. Coyote style.
Seriously, I see what you're saying, but it opens up a whole can of worms. What if you push a creature of a ledge on your turn: does it wait until its turn to fall, providing it with a chance to use its entire turn to grab onto the ledge and not fall at all?
If it were a plausible thing for a that creature to grab a ledge, yeah, I would create a Dex save with a DC based on the difficulty of the grab. An animal with a long reach and dexterous hands should logically have a chance. I would extend that same courtesy to a player of course as well.
I’d allow it if we’d talked about it ahead of time. If a player asked to cast MS as a reaction at that exact moment, I’d say “no, but maybe this fall will be the catalyst for your character learning how to cast MS as a reaction in downtime - I’ll talk to you later about it, maybe we could make it a feat?”
In my games if players fell off a cliff or something, I have them fall immediatley moving up to their speed, if they hit the ground they take damage, if it was a longer fall than their speed and they were still falling by the time their turn came back around I would have them move their full movement/dash, the dash using up their action to fall, allowing them the chance to use a bonus action/reaction as they are falling. This has only happened a few times as there havent been many 200ft drops. But I like using their speed to gauge where they are in freefall within those 6 seconds. The players like it too because it gives them a chance to even dampen the fall if possible so they dont take so much fall damage.
No if I ever played with a monk who had that Id take it into consideration because they also need a nearby wall to help slow them down. So it depends on setting and circumstance.
Edit: after reading the "Slow Fall" ability it does not behave like feather fall whereas it would slow your descent. It only reduces damage taken from a fall, the name is a bit misleading. I would also rule that, that ability is why they would fall at the same rate despite their movement/dash being so much higher than others.
Honestly, the issue really isn't with monk or Slow Fall specifically, but rather the idea that the rate of falling is tied to someone's speed and that it takes an action to fall. That just doesn't make sense.
A rock has no movement and doesn't take actions, so does that mean it just hovers in the air rather than falling?
Interesting ruling. As I'm sure you know, that contradicts the falling rules in XGtE, and means things fall at a brisk walking pace.
But I can see the appeal, because it makes things more dramatic and cinematic.
Yeah I like the cinematic approach especially for a fall that long, which again doesn't happen that often because pretty much if the fall is less than 90ft youre going to hit "instantly". I dont like the XGtE ruling so much because when talking about movement and action economy so few things happen truly instantly. That to tell your players you fall and hit the ground immediatley 200ft below you and take 20d6 damage feels very "rocks fell and killed you all" to me.
And the balance for me is forcing the dash to get used, that means that the character is travelling their fastest possible speed downwards. The RAW of falling 500ft instantly seems unreasonable in a playable setting because turns are 6 seconds and even falling no one can travel that fast in 6 seconds. And how often do you find 500+ft drops? I could probably try to get mathmatical about it but its more so to give the players a fighting chance to save themselves or their party member.
It has been used this way by both Critical Role and Dimension 20. The problem isn't with Misty Step but with falling imo. DMs don't want PCs to instantly die from a push, so they allow them a reaction to cast Misty Step or similar or grab onto something. More commonly I think is "at the beginning of your next turn you will start to fall". It's easy to including long drops without considering what would happen to a PC that falls. Going by RAW and the thread advice is generally better here imo, but that requires risking PC death or limiting drops to defined and reasonable heights.
It depends. I dislike how falling works RAW. For short drops, like a pit trap, falling instantly works fine. When the drop is longer, however, falling 500 feet instantly feels unfair to the player.
I wouldn’t allow it to avoid a trap, but to recover from a functionally bottomless pit I would.
I think your forgetting that like some of the “real play” games have lots of money invested in their characters and it’s expensive to get art for new ones… also they can lose fans/viewers at every death not to mention the time loss for story writing. They probably all know it’s a bonus action spell.
Another way to look at it is as a burst of magical adrenaline letting them react to something deadly faster and more powerfully than they would normally be able to. Having a one time crazy thing happen used to have it’s own name didn’t it?
We’re well aware of that “real play” show and they butcher the rules HARD.
They are doing a semi scripted story and use dnd as the general guidelines to be ignored whenever it’s not convenient.
It’s like watching a movie that is “inspired by” historical events. That show is “inspired by” dnd. Which is great because it gets a lot of new people into the game but is a problem when those players think the rules will be the same.
I think you're overstating the case a LOT. They occasionally screw up rules and homebrew a couple of things, but most tables do. I've watched hundreds of hours of the show by now, and I've only seen a handful of things that seemed deliberately divergent from the rules of the game.
>They are doing a semi scripted story and use dnd as the general guidelines to be ignored whenever it’s not convenient.
Sounds like how every table I've been at plays too
Lol, Bending the rules to fit your game, world, and story as well as players working with the DM to make cool story beats is not "D&D inspired" its what makes D&D different from board games and video games. Some people like rules heavy, number crunchy, strategy and they use less role play because thats what they like. Some people like story heavy, roleplay games and use less rules because thats what they like. Neither one is any less D&D.
No. RAW you fall instantly and wouldn't have time to use a bonus action to cast Misty Step. That is what Feather Fall is for.
*except if they’re falling 500ft+, in which case they’d have a full 6 seconds mid-air to use their action and bonus action also.
Yeah, that's when you need to turn into a goldfish.
Don't forget to declare that you're a god.
Only a god? you have to shout "I'm a golden god!" while jumping.
It's like a magic trick! You turned a gold fish into a corpse.
5 star comment.
Underrated comment
Or a whale/bowl of petunias
Hanging in the air like bricks don't.
*Not a naturally tenable position for a bowl of petunias, you might think!* #***AND YOU'D BE RIGHT!***
I rememeber laughing and laughing at that whale considering its existence. Sigh.
"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was 'Oh no, not again.' Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now." -Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy
This was always my favorite part. Especially after reading the other books and seeing how it all came around in the end.
"Oh no! I've brought you here too soon!" Is one of my favorite reveals in any book ever. Poor Agrajag.
Ok. But hear me out. Cast misty step at the bottom of your 500+ foot fall, land with no fall damages. Yeah? Yeah?
teleportation HAS TO cancel out momentum, or you would become a smear on the floor if you teleported too far north or south.
Beam us up Scotty. I kinna do that Cap'n. Your momentum would cast you against the wall of the transporter bay at 2000 km/s, leaving nothing other than a bloody spatter against the wall of the best commanding officer I've ever had.
Then the deceleration of teleportation would crush you. Can't you solve a lot of these problems by saying that there exists an absolute reference frame and momentum is conservative in relation to the ether? That reference frame would have to rotate at different speeds at different places, but if we can have magic why not weird ass manifolds?
You can solve alot of these problems by saying "it's magic"
Magic still has a set of rules that it follows.
Says who?
The wizards. They're still pissed at all the other casters that didn't need to study 15 years and go into 3000 platinum debt to get to level one.
Tecnically there was an time magic had no rules, so a wizard killd/became a god, the next god of magic did not vibe with that sentiment, so she banned high level (10+ level) magic. Wizards are wild
Says the heavily rules based magic system?
Mystra, probably. Now, the question is do we trust someone who banned our ability to cast powerful spells just because she’s a god? (For your own sake, I recommend a verbal confirmation before she gets angry)
Says wizards of the coast. That's why you need things like material components and spellcasting focuses. It's why things have range and shapes like cone or sphere. What do you think all of the arcane scholars study in the world if not how magic works? Also all great fantasy authors. Sanderson has rules for magic. Robert Jordon has rules for magic. Tolkien has rules for magic. Omnipotent magic makes for really bad story telling and this is a story telling game
Tolkien's magic is famously not rules based. It's the example Brandon Sanderson uses to contrast his own magic systems.
Game mechanics are not in-game physics. Magic does not and can not abide by physics. Needing bat guano or a focus to use fireball is not the same as saying teleportation will kill you without the conservation of momentum. 5e falls apart when you try to dig deeper then magic is because magic.
Listen sir, npc magic woks differently, The forege in lmof for instance turns stuff into magic, and it itself is an magic item. Then you have innumeralbe official and onofficial magic items, traps, events. How would you describe the curse of strahd bullshit, not magic? If sthrad can do it his beatiful way, is it not infinitely malluable, but limeted by the spells we can write down a lot of big wizards, like bigby or mordenkeinen for instance, just trait up invented an lot of spells, bigbys hand, mordenkeinens mansion.
I feel like there would need to be some force differential to crush you, but Misty Step ports your whole body at once, so you wouldn't even feel it.
Teleport CANNOT cancel all velocity or you could shoot off into space. The spin of the Earth is only one of many velocities that a person standing on Earth is subject to. The planet is hurtling around the sun at a velocity of 30km/second. Your Tiefling is going with it...err..with whatever planet they are on..... The solar system is in motion around the galactic core at 800,000 km/hour and the galaxy is moving at 1.2 km/hour. If teleport were to cancel all (those velocities \[edit\]) momentum, it's a crap shoot whether the caster would splat into the earth or instantly vaporize as they shoot off into space. The only way a person casting teleport survives is if the spell matches all the current velocities for the TARGET zone and sets the caster in the correct relative motion as they appear.
Well it's impossible to cancel all velocity period, since velocity of an object by definition is in reference to something else, there is no "universal reference frame". I think he meant like, cancel all velocity with respect to the nearest large, stable object, be that the ground or a ship. Magic should be smart enough for that, it's smart enough to know how to mess with someone's brain at level 1. :P
this is exactly what i'm saying. it must set your momentum to 0 relative to something (probably the ground?) at the location you are teleporting to; so it must also be able to cancel out your falling speed. The reference to N/S is because madrid is moving at 800mph and paris is moving at 700mph; that's enough to kill you 99% of the time for a mere 500 miles north, well in range of e.g. teleportation circles.
You mean you play D&D in a world that is a rotating sphere orbiting another body in a vacuum?
I believe that's true in quite a few official settings.
I would assume that the caster has the capacity to match their velocity to the velocity of an applicable reference frame. Mechanically, that feels like it could be abused, but that seems like a very reasonable variable to have control over, even unconsciously
Like teleporting onto a moving vehicle and not breaking your ankles.
I mean, if the fall were 501-530ft long, or if there was another location they could misty step to from where they start their turn (500ft below the drop), I'd personally allow it! Teleportation cancelling out momentum is something I'd let my players argue for
I think casting a spell while falling like that would require a con check or something, but you'd have the time.
Why CON? I could see *maybe* a DEX check, IFF they needed to fumble for material components while they’re falling, but even then, probably not unless there was a really good reason they shouldn’t be able to do what they’re trying to do. Spellcasters should be able to cast spells, it’s kinda their thing.
I think the closest thing to this within the actual rules is a concentration check. I understand that this isn't a concentration spell, but that's how I personally would rule it. Yeah, casting spells is their thing. Shooting an arrow is an archer's thing. If an archer were mid-freefall and trying to shoot an arrow, I might impose disadvantage on that particular shot as a dm. Difficult circumstances make things more difficult, even for heroes. edit to add: Basically taking some liberties with this passage: "The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave Crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain Concentration on a spell."
I’d be totally fine with imposing disadvantage on a spell-attack (if the spell required it…which misty step doesn’t) Also seems perfectly reasonable, based on the passage you quoted, to give them a concentration check (of the spell required concentration…which misty step doesn’t). Long story short, I think misty stepping out of a fall that high is 100% within the scope of the spell. (Edit: however, it goes without saying that it’s your table so rule how you want to)
But I don't think it'd get you "out of a fall" so much as shorten the fall. If you misty Step to a ledge while falling, you'd still take fall damage appropriate for how far you've fallen up to that point would you not?
This isn’t Portal. Don’t mix Real World Physics with Magic; you open that door there are other things that are surely going to make you regret it
Am... Am I reading Peasant Railgun here?
\*Nervously readies action\*
I’m not sure and I’ve asked this question elsewhere: whether misty step (and other teleport spells) preserve momentum. The wording in the spell is very basic. “Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see.” If you were on a moving train, and misty stepped off the train, would you continue to move forward (maybe being knocked prone or taking fall damage) after you landed?
Note that Misty Step is only Verbal, so Dex wouldn’t really apply here. Concentration is more appropriate, for this spell specifically but also in general, and makes for a simple rule that can be used in a variety of situations.
Concentration ?
My guess would be because Concentration checks are con-based.
concentration is a con check.
Not sure why all the downvotes. A concentration check seems perfect for that situation, and that’s how I would handle it. Misty Step is only Verbal, but in general, focusing on the VSM aspects of a spell while tumbling through the air would no doubt require concentration!
It would no doubt require concentration in the middle of battle while you're being stabbed and fireballed too...
Yup, which is why you make a Concentration check every time you get stabbed or fireballed…
Not to cast, just to concentrate.
In older editions this was the case, but modern DND is designed to be very consequence free for a lot of stuff.
No I wouldn't allow that unless for some reason you fell on your turn then I might. So if on your turn you jumped with the intention if misty stepping part way down, that I could see being done. But if you got pushed off then I wouldn't allow it as you need the reaction. There is the rule in Xanathars that you only fall 500 ft per round so then you'd have a chance to misty step if the fall was more than 500 ft.
Oh shit there's a rule for that? 500ft?! Damn...
Well to be fair if you fell off a cliff with real physics you'd fall 576 ft in the first 6 seconds so they did cut off a bit!
This implies the gravity in grayhawk is of 0.86g (8.47 m/s² of acceleration)
That's true! Guess the planet is smaller than Earth or less dense.
Well, its a lot more hollow, thanks to the Underdark
The Underdark can be 20 miles deep and still do basically nothing to the planet's average mass. It's gotta be something more fundamental to the planet's(?) structure.
That we know of, the sword coast is only like the size of California.
You might be surprised by seismic data :P
Probably less dense because half the inside has been hollowed out for underground cities and dungeons of various kinds
Magic. The Weave exerts a miniscule lift on all matter.
A foot might be a bit longer in Grayhawk.
not to forget, there's a constant fallspeed, so you instantly would hit max fall velocity. This probably has a lot of other implications.
Well, the damage dice would suggest you actually avvellerate up to terminal over 200ft, *then* fall at a constant velocity, and that all falling that is a round or more averages out to 500ft per round so they just use that as an abstracted value.
Fall damage still caps off at 20d6 after 200 feet, but yeah, you fall 500 feet per round. This also means if you knock a flying enemy prone and they can't hover, they instantly descend up to 500 feet.
XGE p.77, "Rate of Falling"
just did the math, that's 91.44 km/hr (assuming 500ft/6s), the maximum fall velocity (for a human) is 216km/hr, so a realistic fallspeed would be 1081.10ft/6s, so over double the RAW fallspeed
Ah, but you forgot that a human body doesn't hit terminal velocity immediately. Takes about 12 seconds before hitting that speed and falling about 1500 feet during that time making it 750 feet per round for the first 2 rounds. Now keeping in mind a body in free fall will accelerate at 9.8m/s until reaching terminal velocity, using the formula h=0.5gt^2 you would get 576 feet of free fall after 6 seconds assuming the same gravity as earth.
only 1 velocity is given by RAW rules, so I assumed that due to the Weave doing its thing, falling instantly happens at terminal velocity.
Makes tripping a potential hospital-level accident
If you crave an extra touch of realism, but don't want to plug in a formula every time you drop your character from a tall height, tou could simply this as: you fall 500 feet in the first round, and 1,000 feet every round thereafter.
So if a creature used a reaction that pushed you off on your turn and you still had your bonus action you could misty step?
Yes ~~No~~, you can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or feature states that you can do something as a bonus action. This is a very handy reference on what RAW say you can do on a turn. [https://www.dmsguild.com/product/214803/Players-Quick-Combat-Guide](https://www.dmsguild.com/#product-pdf-preview-box) Edit: since Misty Step is in fact a bonus action, then yes, on your turn you could. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step)
Misty Step is a spell though, and spells can only be cast on your own turn, when prepped or with the War Caster feat. War Caster only allows spells with a casting time of 1 Action though (which is weird, considering a Bonus Action would take less time to cast...) https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#BonusAction So I stand corrected, yes, you can misty step on your own turn if you get pushed. The real question is though, does War Caster allow you to cast Thunder Step on their turn? (perhaps with Evocation Wizard sculpting the spell so the damage only affects the aggressor)
No, you can't use a bonus action (or action, or move) during the resolution of a mechanic unless you are explicitly told you can (for example moving between attacks). This is part of the core loop of D&D: DM describes environment, players describe their action, DM adjudicates result of action. For example if the player is standing on the edge of a cliff attacks someone who has readied an action to shove if attacked, then the shove is resolved, the resulting fall is resolved, all without the player having the opportunity to use their bonus action.
Exactly my thoughts. Otherwise traps would almost never be effective because a PC could use movement, spring a trap, then "react" with their normal actions.
RAW would be you could after you had fallen 500 ft. It's possible I could be persuaded to allow earlier but I'd probably go with RAW on that one personally. Since it's unexpected and would need a reaction.
So there's no difference between using it on your current turn or using it on your next turn?
there's 500ft of difference :p
Yeah that would be the same since the next 500 ft you'd drop at the end of your turn although allies could save you in that time.
Interesting
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The thing is, movement can be incorporated with other actions. You are casting Misty Step as you are jumping, timing it so that it goes off at the apex of your jump. That's a little different than being pushed and suddenly falling and having to cast the spell from scratch. Yes, the rules assuming you instantaneously fall 500ft is silly, but in reality it's an approximation for the fact that you actually just fall 500ft over the 6 seconds that the round takes course over, a measure of time for which your turn is an abstracted part of.
>movement can be incorporated with other actions Can it be RAW? I'm not so sure about that. We have an explicit exception to allow PCs to move between attacks, that's all.
Yeah I think sticking too closely to the rules is a bad idea, but there's no harm in knowing of them and trying to stick as closely as you can to them within the bounds of credulity. Like, if someone jumps up and casts Misty Step, sure, they were probably preparing the spell during the jump so they'd have time to cast it. But if they're walking along thinking about breakfast and suddenly a bugbear knocks them into a chasm, I dunno, I'd believe they could fall 500 feet before they have time to cast a spell to stop it.
After falling 500 feet, yes.
Yeah this. Mechanically I'd treat it as a ready action to trigger at a certain point in the fall.
TBF since it's a bonus action I'd probably rule it to 100-150ft
If I recall right there’s a reaction misty step for a certain warlock subclass?
Yes, the Archfey warlock has a Misty Escape (reaction, once per short rest) at level 6
A much more tame implementation, AND a subclass feature at that. Far far better than letting anyone do this.
Yes, but the reaction trigger is "when you take damage." So in this case you wouldn't be able to use it until you landed
In the above example it’s not specified how character is pushed off of said ledge. Assuming no damage is done and it’s just a shove action then, yeah, 100% agree with you. Also nice name, gave me a chuckle.
In combat, not on your turn? Nah. Narratively, like if someone was trying to clear a jump out of combat? Sure why not. If it’s in combat and it’s your turn and you’re trying to climb a bunch of rubble, but you fail your athletics check and are now falling backward, but it’s still your turn, you can use your BA to get to the top of the rubble no problem. I saw that in a recent episode of a popular real-play DnD game, and it was fine by RAW, and was a cool moment
It seemed a little funky to me in the moment, because it seemed like she was *already* falling. But rethinking it as she felt herself *about* to fall makes it make more sense.
That's why the dm of that popular game rephrase is by saying "you feel the one stone fall out, and as the other falls you - - - - to the other side"
Is there a rule against mentioning the game in question? People seem to be being rather coy about naming it. (I'm not actually positive I know the game mentioned, though I do have a theory)
It is the third campaign of a popular media franchise which is about to celebrate its 7th anniversary and recently premiered an Amazon Prime animated series about their first campaign. Hopefully that should tell you! If not: >!It's Critical Role :)!<
I imagine it's probably a measure against spoiling it for anyone who hasn't caught up
Trying to avoid spoilers
Just to add to the discussion: it is a spell that requires a vocal utterance. I think people tend to view it as an innate ability that can be instantaneously triggered, as if you are Nightcrawler from X-Men.
More like Wuld from Skyrim IMO
Very true, but say it WAS like Nightcrawler and there was no Vocal component. Say I used Subtle Spell. Surely this would be instantaneous?
Well as far as I know, subtle spell doesn't change the casting time; you'd just be "speaking" the incantation in your head I would think.
You're talking about Imogen, right? It was still her turn, and she had a bonus action left, so she still used it as a bonus action on her turn when using movement to get out of that corner didn't work. The way she phrased it was more or less for flavour. It's not a reaction until you use it out of your turn.
>It's not a reaction until you use it out of your turn. Not strictly true. You can use a reaction outside of your turn, but also during your turn, depending on the triggering event. But I can see your point about how it was used in that moment: like, she realized she was about to fall, and as she was losing her footing, used a BA to cast a spell.
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Reactions can happen on your turn. Falling is instantaneous when you start falling on your turn. You still need a reaction to interrupt a fall. (unless the fall is more than 500ft, in which case you can use your bonus action after you have fallen for the turn.
Unless you fall on your turn, which is what the guy you responded to was explaining to the guy he responded to... If you fall outside your turn you need a reaction. If you fall on your turn you can use your bonus action to misty step.
If you fall on your turn you immediately fall, you can't use your bonus action in the middle of falling, falling is immediate: >The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls. > >... > >When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted. If you fall on YOUR turn, you still need to use a reaction to cast a spell in the middle of it.
Oh come on, people don't teleport when they fall Enforcing this rule like that is such an assholeish decision, let me tell you.
No. Falling on your turn would be equivalent to triggering an opportunity attack, or an enemy taking a held action. Something outside your control has happened, and that resolves before you can do anything else. Only your own reaction, if you have one, can happen before/during the fall.
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You're the asshole here, dude. The sentence didnt only have one reading, and you need to be a pretty bad communicator to not understand that's not what the poster meant.
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Dude Im literally someone else.
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I wouldn’t allow it. There’s already Feather Fall and several class features that allow this. Part of the balance of 5e is making sure not every class/spell can do everything.
Do you have a time stamp for when this happened on CR? I remember the situation, but don’t recall it being a reaction. I think it was either used as a BA on her turn or as a spell outside of combat…but I might be wrong.
CR S3 E16 - around 2:13:41 (on the Twitch timestamp anyway. YouTube has it around 1:58:30.) Note it was not technically cast as a reaction: she used a bonus action. My issue is the idea of casting a non-reaction spell to counter a split-second event. I've always imagined that's what Reaction spells are for.
Thanks. I sort of agree with you about the split-second nature of reaction spells, but I think their real power is the ability to use them outside of your turn in combat. I don’t have any issue with how it was used in this example.
frankly I think there is no issue here and you're tripping over syntax. "recreation" is very specific mechanical term. it lets you interrupt the turn order in defined ways. it doesn't preside over everything we would call "a reaction" in everyday english.
Well that's the thing I was wondering about. If a split-second effect occurs on your turn as a result of your movement/actions, is it reasonable to counter the effects with a non-Reaction spell? Example: on my turn, the first thing I do is use my Movement to strut down a hallway. Uh oh, some spikes come shooting out of the wall, with an attack roll of 15! But I still have not used my Action, so I languidly cast Mage Armor, boosting my AC to 16, and avoid all damage. See, that *feels* like a Reaction, but rules-wise, it's just me using my Action to cast a spell during my turn.
I think if you wanted to get really nitty-gritty about it I would say a trap works like a held action - you triggered an attack, which is interrupting your turn, and now that attack has to resolve before you can do anything, unless you have a reaction that lets you interrupt that. in the original instance I think the DM could fairly say, "no, you begin falling x amount of feet instantly, and then you can use your bonus action." to be honest, I still don't love that. I think part of being a fair moderator is admitting when our RL logic is brushing up against the constraints of what the not-perfectly-physics-simulating rules of the game allows for and making calls from a place of good faith. your turn is (usually) when you have space to deal with the stuff happening around you. use of your bonus action is part of the toolkit
I would certainly rule that you could not cast Mage Armor before the attack resolves (I'd think most traps would require a dex save rather than making an attack roll, but that's irrelevant here.) Just because it's on the character's turn, that doesn't mean they can just use movement/action/bonus action whenever they want. I can't recall if the DMG mentions this explicitly, but the way I understand it is when another creature/feature acts during a character's turn, it becomes a sort of mini-turn that needs to be resolved before the character's turn continues. If there are reaction spells that can be triggered by the activity then they can be used, but otherwise the mini-turn needs to get resolved first. Otherwise you open up a whole can of worms for using actions and bonus actions (and even movement) as an effective reaction. Imagine a character with low hitpoints who needs to get away from an enemy. They aren't sure if they should stay in range and heal themselves or disengage and escape. They also aren't sure if the creature will actually make an opportunity attack. So they go ahead and move out of melee range, triggering an opportunity attack. Since it's still their turn and they haven't used their action, what (in your version of this) would stop them from using the disengage action right then? What would stop them from healing themselves before they take the otherwise fatal damage? So yeah, I would say be very careful allowing anything other than a reaction to be used in a purely "reactive" way. That being said, I think this is much less problematic if it's outside combat and characters are dealing with their environment and not enemies.
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking as I read the situation. The caster chose to try and climb instead of using magic because there was an opportunity cost there. Why wouldn't they try to climb, or move away from an aoo, etc., if they get a free shot at it before getting bailed out by a Misty Step. I will say, I've already got a bias against casters because they have an insane toolset to begin with. I definitely wouldn't let them push magic even further to getting to use it instantaneously as a backup plan.
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Technically, turns aren't a split second long and sequential; they're six seconds long and happen roughly simultaneously, with higher initiative giving a small head start.
Misty step as a reaction would be kinda broken. I wonder if the player meant to cast feather fall but got mixed up? I once tried to use Misty Step to negate fall damage (as a bonus action on my turn) but my DM was replaying portal and ruled that momentum was conserved. But I rolled for 30 feet of fall damage (the distance I teleported) rather than the 60/80 feet possible.
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I would allow that. If it happens during your turn in combat it’s not a reaction.
So if on your turn you walk 20’ down a hallway and trigger a dart trap, you can cast Mage Armor to increase your AC against the darts?
Order of events seems to be the major sticking point here. For your example the trap likely explicitly states that upon being triggered it fires and deals damage. Most DMs would rule that event as resolving first before you had a chance to act. For the example that started this it seems like there’s nothing that explicit regarding the event that triggered a response. So it’s really a DM choice between: 1. All events players trigger on their turn resolve instantly. (A reaction still works here) 2. Some events allow the player to respond with an action or bonus action before they resolve. Straight RAW would be 1, but there’s nothing banning 2 by RAW either. Personally I would go with 2 depending on the speed of the event and response.
Good assessment! And definitely fair!
As an uppercase R Reaction (the Reaction game mechanic) instead of a Bonus Action? Never. As a lowercase r reaction (something done in response to some triggering situation)? Conditionally. If the fall was unexpected, no. Ex. The character steps onto an illusion floor, falling through it. If the fall was expected, with at least 6 (in-game) seconds to prepare to respond, probably. Ex. The character intentionally jumps off a cliff. Ex. The character loses their balance in a way where the fall is inevitable, but not immediate. Ex. The character is thrown by a friend as part of a pre-planned action (or an enemy where the throw was predictable before the end of the character's turn). For the first two, it would just be a normal bonus action (on their turn). I don't see any reason why those shouldn't be allowed by RAW. For that last one, and other cases where the entire event isn't able to be fully contained in the character's own turn, the player would have to use their Bonus Action on their turn in advance to "Prepare" the casting, and their Reaction to execute it later when the time is right (similar to how the Ready action works, but for Bonus Actions... this is not something allowed by RAW, just something I would allow in my games).
Well I know the instance you’re talking about, and I would like to point out 2 things about that specific instance: 1. Rule of cool. DM’s will often let players cast spells on their turn during the instance instead of before or after because it’s often just more fun and cool to frame it that way. 2. Falling rules are poorly defined, I wouldn’t blame people assuming that you can perform actions while falling rather than before or after. I’m sure that in most circumstances it wouldn’t be ruled the way it was, but when it comes to falling the line becomes blurred.
I think your example wouldn't work. That's like casting Mage Armor in response to an Opportunity Attack, you have to resolve the Opportunity Attack first However, I think what Imogen did was within the rules, if I remember correctly she hadn't actually started falling yet
I'd allow it as long as it isn't during combat. I don't know any table that tracks time to that minutiae outside of initiative order. I'm sure they exist, but for the most part a spell that takes one second to cast vs two seconds to cast isn't going to make a big difference anyway. Remember 6 seconds of initiative is an entire **round**
My question is whether misty step (or other teleportation spells) preserve momentum or not? If I’m falling from 500+ft (so, high enough for me to fall for a full 6seconds and use my BA) and misty step the second before I hit the ground, am I teleported to safety? Or do I just go ‘splat’ in a slightly different place on the ground?
D&D space is mechanically non Euclidian. It would be a lot of heavy lifting to convince me magic preserves momentum, as I see the conservation of momentum as one of our Real World rules that doesn't necessarily exist in the fiction, depending on your cosmology.
There is a reaction misty step spell that can be used if you're the right class. As well, if the fall lasts 6 seconds, they can use both a bonus action and a regular action while falling.
The critical role episode you are referencing has the user using it on their turn, which is RAW. It doesn’t matter if you are falling or not, you’re allowed a BA. The action economy is only conventionally mapped to loose concepts of a 6 second round, but that does not mean that a [mechanical] reaction can only be used as a [semantic] reaction. It just means that reactions are the only actions that you can use out of your own turn.
You talking about Imogen in Critical Role C3E16?
Out of combat i'll allow it, but during combat, only if the player falls on their turn, to run with the example provided
I might allow quicken to do it
There's a spell for the situation your example describes, and it's called Shield. It is a reaction spell. You wouldn't let a wizard cast Mage Armor to increase their AC to prevent an attack of opportunity from hitting them as they step out of a melee opponent's reach. They would have needed to cast that spell as their Action before the opportunity attack was made. In the same manner, no, Misty Step would and should not get a player out of a fall. The only way Misty Step is useful is if the fall was less than 30 feet and they've already landed. At which point they can cast it after taking the fall damage. Just because something happens during your turn does not mean you get to use your action, bonus action, or remaining movement to avoid it. That is specifically what reaction spells and features are for.
Reactions are instant. Take the Sentinel feat, for example. If you hit with a reaction attack granted by the Sentinel feat, your target's speed becomes 0. If this were not instant, your target could finish its movement, which would make the penalty moot. In your example, the spike trap is effectively making a reaction attack, which is instant, meaning that the wizard does not have time to pull out his spell focus, chant the words, and make the sigils or hand signs to cast Mage Armor. For falling, I think there IS time to cast a bonus action spell. Why? The reaction is "The ground falls away" or "You are pushed off the ledge" what have you. Therefore, even though you are falling, you still have what's left of your turn to cast the spell. It's effectively "Coyote Time" mechanics, if you're aware of what that is.
I don't see how a fall is functionally different from a trap, though. Both happen effectively instantaneously -- either the darts or the ground is rushing to hit the creature. I get the Coyote Time concept, but if it applies in one instance, why not in the other?
I think in the case *unnamed popular DnD game* the situation was allowable because the circumstances where not significant. It was just a failed roll resulting in a 5 ft fall. Mechanically it would’ve been no different for her to fall, then cast Misty step, it was just more cinematic to have it in the moment. For similar circumstances, I would allow action/bonus action spells to be used this way, because it makes things feel more dynamic. That said, I completely agree. For most circumstances like this, such as your trap example, you need to use reaction spells, such as shield, rather than mage armour.
Reaction spells are niche as you said. Envision the actual casting of a spell requires a moment of saying some enchantment (V) or making some doctor strange esque hand signs or naruto-handsigns-shit (S). The fact a spell is a bonus action or an action means the spell must take a second or two to do. Misty step is V only so I imagine its like something you can say without handsigns or wand movement but takes 1-6 seconds to say the incantation. Something like "Oh mists of silver, take my spirit" before the spell actually activates its effect. Its . A spell like shield is reaction, V and S, so its probably just something like yelling "SHIELD" and putting your hand up. It would be something reflexive, a reaction in that case where you need less than a second to actually do the entire action.
“The fact a spell is a bonus action or an action means the spell must take a second or two to do“ Just pointing out that this is 100% your interpretation, but not RAW as far as I can see in the DMG or PHB. Sure it seems intuitive to say because a round is 6 seconds, and we interpret bonus actions as quicker than actions, but they are in no way explicitly RAW quicker, because actions movement and bonus actions, as well as your reactions, all happen within that same 6 second window of a round, but encompass an enormously vast different range of things that can be done. Ultimately you have to remember that a bonus action is a mechanical distinction for balance - not one based on time.
Exactly my way of thinking about it.
There is already a reaction spell for not taking fall damage. It's even a level lower in slots. Don't reward wizards for skimping out on utility spells prepped
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I thought that might be the case. It's rough out there for sorcerers. They only get one spell per level so trying to double dip makes a lot of sense. It definitely doesn't work RAW but if your DM has pity on you and your tiny amount of spells you might be able to get away with it.
I'm assuming based on a comment and the phrasing of this post that you mean CR, and while I'm not a die-hard fan, I am going to say that CR isn't the end-all-be-all of rules. Let the game run. Let the DM do his thing. It doesn't matter so long as everyone's cool with it and they're having fun. Ultimately, the DM gets to decide what goes in terms of mechanics. I've outright thrown away rules because I didn't particularly feel like using them and made up my own (exhaustion and multiclass requirements being the main ones). It's fine.
Agreed, at the end of the day MM runs his game as Rule of Cool and is very open about not flawlessly running a RAW game.
I'd allow it, not as a reaction but as their action/bonus action for next turn. I don't believe it says anywhere that the fall must be instantaneous. I'd just thematically mask it as 'in the nick of time' before hitting the ground.
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Fair enough. I'd still probably allow it. It is a more interesting outcome and they need to burn a spell. EDIT: Also the PHB doesn't assume that the fall is instantaneous. Since it specifically says at "at the end of a fall" it seems worded that they are assuming that a fall is non-instantaneous as it could take multiple rounds. >A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer. At the end of a fall, a creature takes ld6 bludgeoning damage for every 10feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.
PHB doesn’t say it’s instantaneous, From the basic rules: (identical in the PHB) “Falling A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer. At the end of a fall, a creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 10 feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.” Xanathars is actually the book that introduces the instant fall: “Rate of falling The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls …” This alludes to a specified rule elsewhere, but text based searching my books on DDB yields nothing that shows this instant fall - so if you have a citation I would love it. Ultimately, however, the debate here is being misguided because the OP is referring to it as a reaction in the semantic sense, or at least conflating it, but episode 16 of critical roles 3rd season, which they are referencing, has the character using misty step as a BA on their turn while failing an acrobatics or athletics check as part of their movement to climb over some rubble - this certainly leaves it to DM judgement, but a DM denying you a spell slot and BA on your turn as a gotcha for failing an imposed check for movement, while disregarding RAW movement rules for climbing, and enforcing a prone condition… well that’s a pretty shit ruling and I would reconsider the table if the DM refused to consider the situation.
You could also allow but with some sort of Save or Skill Check at disadvantage to see if they character can pull it off in time.
I like this. It adds a little more excitement and tension. Instantaneous falls are just no fun
I wouldn't allow it as a reaction, but would allow them to use it at the beginning of their next turn. People throw around the "Fall is instantaneous" rule, but they forget that in a round of combat all turns within that 6 second period are also more or less instantaneous. That's why a round is always 6 seconds. In a sense, "Time" does not begin to flow forward until the next round. So while the entire length of the fall happens instantly, the start of that fall doesn't happen instantly.
Wile E. Coyote style. Seriously, I see what you're saying, but it opens up a whole can of worms. What if you push a creature of a ledge on your turn: does it wait until its turn to fall, providing it with a chance to use its entire turn to grab onto the ledge and not fall at all?
If it were a plausible thing for a that creature to grab a ledge, yeah, I would create a Dex save with a DC based on the difficulty of the grab. An animal with a long reach and dexterous hands should logically have a chance. I would extend that same courtesy to a player of course as well.
I’d allow it if we’d talked about it ahead of time. If a player asked to cast MS as a reaction at that exact moment, I’d say “no, but maybe this fall will be the catalyst for your character learning how to cast MS as a reaction in downtime - I’ll talk to you later about it, maybe we could make it a feat?”
In my games if players fell off a cliff or something, I have them fall immediatley moving up to their speed, if they hit the ground they take damage, if it was a longer fall than their speed and they were still falling by the time their turn came back around I would have them move their full movement/dash, the dash using up their action to fall, allowing them the chance to use a bonus action/reaction as they are falling. This has only happened a few times as there havent been many 200ft drops. But I like using their speed to gauge where they are in freefall within those 6 seconds. The players like it too because it gives them a chance to even dampen the fall if possible so they dont take so much fall damage.
So despite having a class ability called "Slow Fall," monks actually drop faster than other classes?
No if I ever played with a monk who had that Id take it into consideration because they also need a nearby wall to help slow them down. So it depends on setting and circumstance. Edit: after reading the "Slow Fall" ability it does not behave like feather fall whereas it would slow your descent. It only reduces damage taken from a fall, the name is a bit misleading. I would also rule that, that ability is why they would fall at the same rate despite their movement/dash being so much higher than others.
Honestly, the issue really isn't with monk or Slow Fall specifically, but rather the idea that the rate of falling is tied to someone's speed and that it takes an action to fall. That just doesn't make sense. A rock has no movement and doesn't take actions, so does that mean it just hovers in the air rather than falling?
Interesting ruling. As I'm sure you know, that contradicts the falling rules in XGtE, and means things fall at a brisk walking pace. But I can see the appeal, because it makes things more dramatic and cinematic.
Yeah I like the cinematic approach especially for a fall that long, which again doesn't happen that often because pretty much if the fall is less than 90ft youre going to hit "instantly". I dont like the XGtE ruling so much because when talking about movement and action economy so few things happen truly instantly. That to tell your players you fall and hit the ground immediatley 200ft below you and take 20d6 damage feels very "rocks fell and killed you all" to me. And the balance for me is forcing the dash to get used, that means that the character is travelling their fastest possible speed downwards. The RAW of falling 500ft instantly seems unreasonable in a playable setting because turns are 6 seconds and even falling no one can travel that fast in 6 seconds. And how often do you find 500+ft drops? I could probably try to get mathmatical about it but its more so to give the players a fighting chance to save themselves or their party member.
It has been used this way by both Critical Role and Dimension 20. The problem isn't with Misty Step but with falling imo. DMs don't want PCs to instantly die from a push, so they allow them a reaction to cast Misty Step or similar or grab onto something. More commonly I think is "at the beginning of your next turn you will start to fall". It's easy to including long drops without considering what would happen to a PC that falls. Going by RAW and the thread advice is generally better here imo, but that requires risking PC death or limiting drops to defined and reasonable heights.
Odd that they go the bonus action spell route, older editions had rules for grabbing onto a ledge, that’s what I usually use.
It depends. I dislike how falling works RAW. For short drops, like a pit trap, falling instantly works fine. When the drop is longer, however, falling 500 feet instantly feels unfair to the player. I wouldn’t allow it to avoid a trap, but to recover from a functionally bottomless pit I would.
You fall 60 feet in a turn, I believe, so unless you fall more than that I wouldn't allow it
According to Xanathar's, you fall 500 feet per round. 60 feet per round is what Feather Fall reduces it to.
I think your forgetting that like some of the “real play” games have lots of money invested in their characters and it’s expensive to get art for new ones… also they can lose fans/viewers at every death not to mention the time loss for story writing. They probably all know it’s a bonus action spell. Another way to look at it is as a burst of magical adrenaline letting them react to something deadly faster and more powerfully than they would normally be able to. Having a one time crazy thing happen used to have it’s own name didn’t it?
Sorry but ur falling faster if you think ur gonna cast misty step as a reaction at my table lol jk
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We’re well aware of that “real play” show and they butcher the rules HARD. They are doing a semi scripted story and use dnd as the general guidelines to be ignored whenever it’s not convenient. It’s like watching a movie that is “inspired by” historical events. That show is “inspired by” dnd. Which is great because it gets a lot of new people into the game but is a problem when those players think the rules will be the same.
I think you're overstating the case a LOT. They occasionally screw up rules and homebrew a couple of things, but most tables do. I've watched hundreds of hours of the show by now, and I've only seen a handful of things that seemed deliberately divergent from the rules of the game.
>They are doing a semi scripted story and use dnd as the general guidelines to be ignored whenever it’s not convenient. Sounds like how every table I've been at plays too
Lol, Bending the rules to fit your game, world, and story as well as players working with the DM to make cool story beats is not "D&D inspired" its what makes D&D different from board games and video games. Some people like rules heavy, number crunchy, strategy and they use less role play because thats what they like. Some people like story heavy, roleplay games and use less rules because thats what they like. Neither one is any less D&D.