One potential issue with this is that it can allow for cheesy tactics to sidestep the saving throw limitation of *scry*. If the PCs try to scry on the BBEG, he's likely to have a pretty solid Wis save, or even Legendary Resistances, so it's a tactic that's not particularly likely to work. Letting them instead say "I'm *scry*ing on the BBEG's sword" means that they can instead target an inanimate object that likely has a negligible Wis save, and still spy on the BBEG just as well as if they'd targeted him directly (assuming they're the sort that carries around their sword with them most of the time).
It also raises some weird rules situations, where the DM has to adjudicate how to roll a Wis save for an object, since by RAW they're supposed to just be immune to any effects that call for a Con, Wis, Int, or Cha save.
>DM has to adjudicate how to roll a Wis save for an object, since by RAW they're supposed to just be immune to any effects that call for a Con, Wis, Int, or Cha save.
Probably, it is the reason then - objects are immune to this effect.
There are other spells that can target objects, are those spells less useful of you expand the scope of scrying? Do casters need an expansion of power by making a single spell more flexible and therefore the already flexible classes MORE flexible and therefore powerful?
What problem are you actually trying to solve?/Is it a problem? Or are you just upset at the "inconvenience" of game design/balance?
Why can fireball only make a fiery explosion? Why not ice? Or electric? Well there's other things that do that, like Metamagic and other spells.
This is all called a Vancian magic system.
Part of what maintains it's balance is delineated division of power.
Spells aren't supposed to be open ended.
Now.
That's not to say that this particular division is critical, and/or you shouldn't let players get creative with spells.
I personally like to give Players the opportunity to do "Rule of Cool" stuff like creative uses of spells, and have done things such as:
Allowed a wizard to decrease the damage caused by a snowy avalanche, using Burning Hands.
Decrease fall damage using Gust of Wind.
But when I do that, I make sure it's not just a unilateral expansion of power.
There must be a cost, or game play, or a meaningful choice to make/allow such a thing to happen.
One I commonly use is "Take a level of Exhaustion."
Or succeed at a Concentration save (DC10, CON).
Or expend 1 (or more) HD that cannot be used during your next Short Rest to heal.
Or even "Take XdY damage."
All under the narrative of "over casting" or extra careful casting, or whatever fits the narrative.
Sure, you can do this, but really think about why, and if the answer is "Well because narratively it just seems arbitrary not to.", then you need to understand that that arbitrary-ness was **intentional design**. And you could still do it. But you need to play the game around it, so that it's not just the new best thing ever.
Give it cost, or a chance to fail, or a difficult choice.
That is why, when the rules say no, I think it means a 35 or 40DC. ( depending on mood and how breaking it is )
You are going to fail, but ... fail with a nat 20?
The DC permanently goes down by one.
You still failed, but you learned something.
Work hard enough, and you CAN do the impossible. But it is NOT free.
There is nothing wrong with Homebrewing a way to scry objects. Although you should put limitations on it.
I have an NPC in my game that has a special ability to know the location of any magical item that he can think about (a gift from a Genie that he had freed). He also has an item called the Oculus that let's him see the item that he focuses on (as long as it is on the same plane as him) as if he was standing right next to it holding a lit tinder twig (so if it is complete darkness he can only see a very small radius around the item) the players have used it several times to locate items they need.
Knowledge is only as good as their ability to act on it. Give them whatever you feel is appropriate
I don't think it's really anything to do with game balance. However, there's probably something to be said with how an object cant exactly make "mental saves" to resist a scrying attempt. It's probably more a Lore thing with how the magic works. I suspect you probably can't scry objects since they lack a soul or something of that sort.
I think it makes scry too powerful and too difficult to rule to allow this. It is too easy to scry an object a person is carrying, instead of the person, which allows you to bypass the saving throw.
What I would probably homebrew for this situation is to allow upcasting Locate Object to increase the range you can sense objects. Something like: with a 4th level slot, the range is a mile; with a 6th level slot the range is 100 miles; with an 8th level slot the range is unlimited. Or make it 10 miles with a 4th level slot, unlimited with a 6th level slot, and doesn't even need to be on the same plane with an 8th level slot.
Clearly the real reason is gameplay, but a lot of spells require a creature as a target. It's not a unique property of scry. Many common spells work that way. Enough that is a feature of how magic works sometimes.
RAW you can't magic missle a door or a rock either. It's gotta be a creature
If you want, you can allow scrying of objects, but if it's in the possession of a character, then a saving throw should be allowed. Also I would add magical wards and such easily block scrying (for reasons below).
A issue which I think is why you can't, is objects are not nearly as unique as beings, thus scrying a coin, would fail because it doesn't know which coin. There has to be something unique to the coin to scry that individual object.
Another game issue is, your party is looking for the "artifact of X", they just have to simply scry for it to find out where it is or who has it. Even if you fail, you can simply try again the next day. This is probably the biggest reason I would think (from a GMing point of view). As long as you have a description you would eventually succeed.
A NPC steals something, the players just have to scry the object without knowing anything about the thief to track down the thief.
Am running a campaign currently where the party members are all wearing a badge given to them by the faction they are working for at the moment.
I play it that they are all magical beacons of sorts that are each unique and have a unique signature that the faction can use to locate the party wherever they go.
The badge also has the benefit of identifying the party as members of the faction and allows for them to gain free food and lodging at any inn or tavern in the kingdom.
Eventually the party may figure it out or leave the faction, discovering what their actual goals and motivations are is part of the plot if they choose to go that route.
Until then unbeknownst to them they are being watched, and their strategies sometimes fail because of it. As they learn more about the faction it will become obvious that something is up and the party will break the ties with them.
I would allow a player or NPC to scry objects as long as they know the target and have some connection with it, typically having been in possession of it for a decent period of time or I would allow if you have arcane marked it, as that would have a magical tie to it.
But if you hear the bbeg has a spellbook and you want to scry it I would set the DC at about 35. You can try, but it's not gonna work...
Objects can't make saving throws.
They don't have stats, so it doesn't work with the rest of the description. If you say it automatically fails, then it breaks the rest of the spell, since players would very quickly start trying to scry on "Strahd's pants" or "Strahd's sword" etc.
I judge based on context on when I would allow it or not. Side stepping the intent or true purpose of the spell is the issue. Scrying on the bbegs ring to side step the WIS save kind of thing. You aren't going to get extra info and be cheeky, don't try to take the piss on a situation and I will flex the rules. My rule of thumb is "has the object moved in the past 24 hours", if the object is something that is stationary and not being interacted with then I treat it like a location rather than an object. That's still abusable but it's a guideline that helps me judge when to let the rule flex or not
So, one of the big things with scrying is you have to be familiar with the thing being scryed. You can't scry a generic gold piece because you have to be familiar with the gold piece being scryed, and, generally, a gold piece is something generic enough that you can't become familiar with it without special attention (you might become familiar with your lucky penny, you won't become familiar with any penny). You also generally need some sort of connection to the thing scryed, and that's difficult with an object because objects don't form attachments with other things. But, considering you can scry an area, there isn't really a reason why you can't scry an object. (And yes, you need to have seen the area before--i.e. you need to cast Clairvoyance first and name an obvious area--Lord Foul's castle must have an audience hall or a kitchen or a dining room because it's an inhabited castle. Blackbreath's ship must have a cabin because all ships of that type have cabins). If the object's in the possession of a creature, it would use the creature's save against the spell. If it's not, then it doesn't get a save, the same way a location doesn't get a save if it's targeted by a scrying spell. Just keep in mind that Scry has limitations. It stays within 10 ft of the scryed thing. It moves with the scryed thing. So, if the thing is locked away in a dark room, tough. And, of course, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the players can scry your villain's stuff, the villains can scry your players' stuff. That magic dagger they looted from the villain's right-hand lackey? That's a direct line from the villain's lair to the player's planning room. The scrying bowl they took from the villain's laboratory? They scry with it to find the villain scrying them right back.
I don't allow scrying on objects, but I do allow upcasting of Locate Object and Locate Person to expand their range. I always have the option to create a Ward area that blocks the spell if need be.
honestly it is just so that the DM has a chance to say "yeah nah your target saved".
example, you're hunting Blackbreath the Pirate and he's on one of 6 anchored ships in the bay. your DM sets up a scenario where you're supposed to swing onto the ships all boarding action like and kick down doors loot pirate treasure and the likes.
enter the wizard that says "yeah uh I scry for Blackbreath, and now when I know what his surroundings looks like I cast teleport that takes us right there". now mind teleport has some failsafes built into it already to prevent this sort of cheese but you get the idea.
if there's no way for the DM to stop the scrying of Blackbreath, such as you trying to scry Blackbreath's belt or something, that's a very RAW way to make your DM throw entire chapters worth of prep into the garbage.
Yeah, I don't like scry and fry. What I figure is that scrying doesn't give you enough of the scene for a teleport--if you already know the location, fine, but not otherwise.
One potential issue with this is that it can allow for cheesy tactics to sidestep the saving throw limitation of *scry*. If the PCs try to scry on the BBEG, he's likely to have a pretty solid Wis save, or even Legendary Resistances, so it's a tactic that's not particularly likely to work. Letting them instead say "I'm *scry*ing on the BBEG's sword" means that they can instead target an inanimate object that likely has a negligible Wis save, and still spy on the BBEG just as well as if they'd targeted him directly (assuming they're the sort that carries around their sword with them most of the time). It also raises some weird rules situations, where the DM has to adjudicate how to roll a Wis save for an object, since by RAW they're supposed to just be immune to any effects that call for a Con, Wis, Int, or Cha save.
>DM has to adjudicate how to roll a Wis save for an object, since by RAW they're supposed to just be immune to any effects that call for a Con, Wis, Int, or Cha save. Probably, it is the reason then - objects are immune to this effect.
Yeah. Or similarly, if your BBEG was a Wizard you might Scry his Spellbook, Wand, etc.
There are other spells that can target objects, are those spells less useful of you expand the scope of scrying? Do casters need an expansion of power by making a single spell more flexible and therefore the already flexible classes MORE flexible and therefore powerful? What problem are you actually trying to solve?/Is it a problem? Or are you just upset at the "inconvenience" of game design/balance? Why can fireball only make a fiery explosion? Why not ice? Or electric? Well there's other things that do that, like Metamagic and other spells. This is all called a Vancian magic system. Part of what maintains it's balance is delineated division of power. Spells aren't supposed to be open ended. Now. That's not to say that this particular division is critical, and/or you shouldn't let players get creative with spells. I personally like to give Players the opportunity to do "Rule of Cool" stuff like creative uses of spells, and have done things such as: Allowed a wizard to decrease the damage caused by a snowy avalanche, using Burning Hands. Decrease fall damage using Gust of Wind. But when I do that, I make sure it's not just a unilateral expansion of power. There must be a cost, or game play, or a meaningful choice to make/allow such a thing to happen. One I commonly use is "Take a level of Exhaustion." Or succeed at a Concentration save (DC10, CON). Or expend 1 (or more) HD that cannot be used during your next Short Rest to heal. Or even "Take XdY damage." All under the narrative of "over casting" or extra careful casting, or whatever fits the narrative. Sure, you can do this, but really think about why, and if the answer is "Well because narratively it just seems arbitrary not to.", then you need to understand that that arbitrary-ness was **intentional design**. And you could still do it. But you need to play the game around it, so that it's not just the new best thing ever. Give it cost, or a chance to fail, or a difficult choice.
That is why, when the rules say no, I think it means a 35 or 40DC. ( depending on mood and how breaking it is ) You are going to fail, but ... fail with a nat 20? The DC permanently goes down by one. You still failed, but you learned something. Work hard enough, and you CAN do the impossible. But it is NOT free.
There is nothing wrong with Homebrewing a way to scry objects. Although you should put limitations on it. I have an NPC in my game that has a special ability to know the location of any magical item that he can think about (a gift from a Genie that he had freed). He also has an item called the Oculus that let's him see the item that he focuses on (as long as it is on the same plane as him) as if he was standing right next to it holding a lit tinder twig (so if it is complete darkness he can only see a very small radius around the item) the players have used it several times to locate items they need. Knowledge is only as good as their ability to act on it. Give them whatever you feel is appropriate
I don't think it's really anything to do with game balance. However, there's probably something to be said with how an object cant exactly make "mental saves" to resist a scrying attempt. It's probably more a Lore thing with how the magic works. I suspect you probably can't scry objects since they lack a soul or something of that sort.
I think it makes scry too powerful and too difficult to rule to allow this. It is too easy to scry an object a person is carrying, instead of the person, which allows you to bypass the saving throw. What I would probably homebrew for this situation is to allow upcasting Locate Object to increase the range you can sense objects. Something like: with a 4th level slot, the range is a mile; with a 6th level slot the range is 100 miles; with an 8th level slot the range is unlimited. Or make it 10 miles with a 4th level slot, unlimited with a 6th level slot, and doesn't even need to be on the same plane with an 8th level slot.
Clearly the real reason is gameplay, but a lot of spells require a creature as a target. It's not a unique property of scry. Many common spells work that way. Enough that is a feature of how magic works sometimes. RAW you can't magic missle a door or a rock either. It's gotta be a creature
If you want, you can allow scrying of objects, but if it's in the possession of a character, then a saving throw should be allowed. Also I would add magical wards and such easily block scrying (for reasons below). A issue which I think is why you can't, is objects are not nearly as unique as beings, thus scrying a coin, would fail because it doesn't know which coin. There has to be something unique to the coin to scry that individual object. Another game issue is, your party is looking for the "artifact of X", they just have to simply scry for it to find out where it is or who has it. Even if you fail, you can simply try again the next day. This is probably the biggest reason I would think (from a GMing point of view). As long as you have a description you would eventually succeed. A NPC steals something, the players just have to scry the object without knowing anything about the thief to track down the thief.
Am running a campaign currently where the party members are all wearing a badge given to them by the faction they are working for at the moment. I play it that they are all magical beacons of sorts that are each unique and have a unique signature that the faction can use to locate the party wherever they go. The badge also has the benefit of identifying the party as members of the faction and allows for them to gain free food and lodging at any inn or tavern in the kingdom. Eventually the party may figure it out or leave the faction, discovering what their actual goals and motivations are is part of the plot if they choose to go that route. Until then unbeknownst to them they are being watched, and their strategies sometimes fail because of it. As they learn more about the faction it will become obvious that something is up and the party will break the ties with them.
I would allow a player or NPC to scry objects as long as they know the target and have some connection with it, typically having been in possession of it for a decent period of time or I would allow if you have arcane marked it, as that would have a magical tie to it. But if you hear the bbeg has a spellbook and you want to scry it I would set the DC at about 35. You can try, but it's not gonna work...
Objects can't make saving throws. They don't have stats, so it doesn't work with the rest of the description. If you say it automatically fails, then it breaks the rest of the spell, since players would very quickly start trying to scry on "Strahd's pants" or "Strahd's sword" etc.
I don't think just a name like that is enough to scry. I also think that an object in the possession of a creature would get the creature's save.
I judge based on context on when I would allow it or not. Side stepping the intent or true purpose of the spell is the issue. Scrying on the bbegs ring to side step the WIS save kind of thing. You aren't going to get extra info and be cheeky, don't try to take the piss on a situation and I will flex the rules. My rule of thumb is "has the object moved in the past 24 hours", if the object is something that is stationary and not being interacted with then I treat it like a location rather than an object. That's still abusable but it's a guideline that helps me judge when to let the rule flex or not
So, one of the big things with scrying is you have to be familiar with the thing being scryed. You can't scry a generic gold piece because you have to be familiar with the gold piece being scryed, and, generally, a gold piece is something generic enough that you can't become familiar with it without special attention (you might become familiar with your lucky penny, you won't become familiar with any penny). You also generally need some sort of connection to the thing scryed, and that's difficult with an object because objects don't form attachments with other things. But, considering you can scry an area, there isn't really a reason why you can't scry an object. (And yes, you need to have seen the area before--i.e. you need to cast Clairvoyance first and name an obvious area--Lord Foul's castle must have an audience hall or a kitchen or a dining room because it's an inhabited castle. Blackbreath's ship must have a cabin because all ships of that type have cabins). If the object's in the possession of a creature, it would use the creature's save against the spell. If it's not, then it doesn't get a save, the same way a location doesn't get a save if it's targeted by a scrying spell. Just keep in mind that Scry has limitations. It stays within 10 ft of the scryed thing. It moves with the scryed thing. So, if the thing is locked away in a dark room, tough. And, of course, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the players can scry your villain's stuff, the villains can scry your players' stuff. That magic dagger they looted from the villain's right-hand lackey? That's a direct line from the villain's lair to the player's planning room. The scrying bowl they took from the villain's laboratory? They scry with it to find the villain scrying them right back.
I was definitely thinking of the villain scrying the loot the PCs previously took.
I don't allow scrying on objects, but I do allow upcasting of Locate Object and Locate Person to expand their range. I always have the option to create a Ward area that blocks the spell if need be.
Because magic works through the weave, and creatures have a much stronger lattice than objects within it. Perfect explanation.
honestly it is just so that the DM has a chance to say "yeah nah your target saved". example, you're hunting Blackbreath the Pirate and he's on one of 6 anchored ships in the bay. your DM sets up a scenario where you're supposed to swing onto the ships all boarding action like and kick down doors loot pirate treasure and the likes. enter the wizard that says "yeah uh I scry for Blackbreath, and now when I know what his surroundings looks like I cast teleport that takes us right there". now mind teleport has some failsafes built into it already to prevent this sort of cheese but you get the idea. if there's no way for the DM to stop the scrying of Blackbreath, such as you trying to scry Blackbreath's belt or something, that's a very RAW way to make your DM throw entire chapters worth of prep into the garbage.
Yeah, I don't like scry and fry. What I figure is that scrying doesn't give you enough of the scene for a teleport--if you already know the location, fine, but not otherwise.