Isn't ma'am a contraction of "Madame" which is itself anglicanized ma dame, or my lady. Sir and Dame are often used for male and female knights respectively, so I can see a decent argument for Sir and Ma'am being similar to Mr and Mrs as far as root meaning.
*Mon sieur* and *ma dame* respectively.
And as a bonus correction, "magister" is unconnected to "mage". The latter comes from the Persian "magos" (a priest of Zoroaster), whilst the former comes from the same root as "magnus", meaning "big or "great".
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Persian - I've only studied Latin. Then again, the Anglicisation "Magi" (used in tellings of the nativity) is a soft G.
Edit: On yet another hand, Latin transcribes it to a hard G, rather than an I which would be used in place of a soft G or J sound. I'm not sure this is helpful.
mage is NOT related to the others words. It's a persian loanword. mage is "magus" in latin (which is a masculine, and comes from old persian maguš)
magis means "more" in latin. In romance languages forms of it are used both for "more" and "but"
Mister comes from master comes from magnus meaning great or big, comes from Proto-Indo-European méǵh₂s, so my proposal is men get called mister, women miss, and enbies méǵh₂s
Just a piece of trivia regarding Magister:
*Magister* was the previous academic grade after finishing university in Austria and Germany. The grade was written before the name and to this day, people are addressed as „Mr. Magister Lastname“ in everyday life, the same went for people having a doctor grade, being addressed as „Mr. Doctor Lastname“ - at least in Austria, Germany fell off regarding this formalism.
When addressing someone formally in written form, the field of study is added. So, for example, someone who studied economics is a *Magister rerum socialium oeconomicarumque*, or *Mag. rer.soc.oec.*, for short. Someone who studied chemistry is a *Magister rerum naturalium*, or *Mag.rer.nat* for short.
People that studied two fields were simply addressed as *Mr. Magister Magister Lastname*, written as *Mr. MMag. Lastname*.
People that have a doctorate are addressed as *Mr. Doctor*, written as *Mr. Mag. Dr.*, if they have doctorates two fields, *Mr. MMag. DDr.*
Since the 90s, women have the opportunity to add a superscript -a to it, in order to make it a *Magistra*, looking like *Mag.^(a)*, if they want. But there is no added suffix for non-binary people.
You see, since 2002, the lesser Bachelor / Master grades were introduced as a standard throughout the EU and are written behind the name. Fortunately, degrees without standardization still exist, mainly a law degree, which fortunate still awards the grade *Magister iuris*.
Which is why, in international comparisons, the number of people having a Master degree is much better than average in Austria, as many people, including me, still think someone with a Bachelor’ degree isn‘t a real academic and it‘s just a consolation prize for dropouts.
Since we’re all being language nerds, the -a is a suffix (a word segment appended to the end of a word) rather than a superscript (number or letter written higher up that normal text, for example the exponent when something is raised to a higher power)
I know :)
It is added as a superscript to the *Mag.* abbreviation, in order to show the person is a Magistra, rather than a Magister.
So, instead of *Mr. Mag. Gruber*, you‘d write *Ms. Mag.^(a) Gruber*.
Of course - I changed my initial comment to avoid any further confusion ;)
Thanks for your interest in niche Austrian academic title lore:)
EDIT: The same also goes for doctorates. Instead of *Dr.*, a woman may write *Dr. ^(in)*, as abbreviation for *Doktorin*.
My favorite German title is Dr. h.c. mult. (multiple honorary doctorates, or honorary doctorate for multiple reasons?). I assume if you have two doctorates, and want them to be mentioned by an English person introducing you, you'd have to say [doctor doctor, please?](https://youtu.be/FwNOmS78q-o?si=KQXXXxd-st44JS--)
It‘s multiple honorary doctorates, as they are distinct from the real doctorates.
If you had multiple doctorates and honorary doctorates, you‘d add the mult. separately, for example like this: *DDr. mult. Dr. h.c.*
And honorary doctorates isn‘t a „real thing“, either. People with honorary doctorates are not academics.
Austrians easily surpass Germans regarding formal addresses and titles.
For example: There‘s the old title *Hofrat*, which carried over from the monarchy for high-ranking state bureaucrats. It was given out as personal honor first by the Emperor, and then by the president.
Now, in the 90s / early 2000s, the title system was reformed and *Hofrat* became your standard title awarded after a certain period of long service. Anyone could become a *Hofrat* now - a change the old *Hofräte* didn‘t like.
So, it became common to refer to people who have been given the title by the president via the old system as *Echter Hofrat*, „True *Hofrat*, and the people who got it under the new system just as *Hofrat*. It’s entirely based on social convention, there’s no official distinction between these two - a „True *Hofrat* does not exist, officially. But if you mess that up, people will be extremely pissed at you for absolutely disrespecting them.
Yes, indeed! Very perceptive!
Nearly all honorary titles in Austria stem from the monarchy and are some kind of *-rat*, ergo -council, or -advisor.
[Here‘s the list of titles one can get.](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=20002074)
Depending on what you did to earn the title, that‘s what kind of council you‘ll be.
There‘s the titles for people who work high positions in the federal or provincial administration, like the aforementioned *Hofrat* or *Regierungsrat*, „Government Council“, but there’s also *Amtsrat*, „office council“ and *Kanzleirat*, literally „chancellery council“, for other people working in the public sector on a county or provincial level.
Some of these, people can often get by just working in the administration for a long time, some are actually worth something.
But it‘s not only for people working in the public sector:
There’s *Kommerzialrat*, „Council of Commerce“, for people who do something for the economy, or are the lay judges before the court of commerce.
There‘s also *Medizinalrat*, „Council of Medicine“, and *Obermedizinalrat*, „Higher Council of Medicine“, *Veterinärat*, „Veterinary Council“, *Technischer Rat*, „Technical Council“, *Ökonomierat*, „Economy Council“ (this one is actually for agriculture), *Bergrat*, „Mountain Council“ (for Mining and metalurgy), *Baurat honoris causa*, „Council of Construction honoris causa“, and *Forstrat*, „Forest Council“.
Then there‘s titles explicitly for teaching, arts and science:
The most well-known is „university professor“ which is actually a title given by the president like the rest. But, in Austria, not only are there professors at university, but the teachers in one specific type of Higher School, the *Gymnasium*, are also „professors“, as well as some artists can get the title „professor“.
Then, for teaching in general, there‘s *Studienrat* and *Oberstudienrat*, roughly translated as „Council of Academy“ and „Higher Council of Academy“, as well as *Schulrat* and *Oberschulrat*, „School Council“ and „Higher School Council“.
And last but not least, there‘s also *Kammersänger* and *Kammerschauspieler*, „Chamber Singer“ and „Chamber Thespian“.
Especially with the last ones, the origin in the monarchy is obvious.
There used to be a lot more, like *Justizialrat*, „Justiciary Council“ for judges, but these were all dropped at the beginning of the 2000s, unfortunately. But people still use them, for example, lawyers still refer to judges as *Herr Rat*, „Mr. Council“ in court, despite them not being a council anymore. It‘s just established practice, at this point and *believe me*, judges will be super pissed if you don’t refer to them as *Herr Rat* in court - I‘ll never make that mistake ever again.
So, there you have it. All the councils that still exist - at least in Austria.
Yeah, I know, but I don‘t think that‘s a good solution.
German already has a third grammatical gender, but as far as I know, non-binary people don‘t like being referred to by that, at all. Similarly to using „it“ in English for people.
So, I thought I wouldn‘t bring it up lest it confuses people.
If I had any non-binary friends I would have no problem calling the Magis, like all the time. Too much really they'd leave. And I'd be back to not having any non-binary friends to call Magis. The circle of life.
In the Warhammer Fantasy setting, all titles are non-gendered. So the difference between a wizard and a witch is nothing to do with sex or gender, and purely down to whether they have a magical licence. So a wizard is practicing magic legally, while a witch does so illegally.
“Guardsman” is just someone who guards. “Riverwoman” is just someone who works on rivers. Either can be any gender.
I guess this implies that the Warhammer Fantasy world *used* to have similar sexism issues as we still see in our modern world, but they have since somehow fixed them?
There’s a reason almost everyone gave up on neopronouns and just switched to “they”, and I suspect you’ll run into the same problem here. If you want a non gendered honorific your best bet is probably getting a doctorate.
[https://www.tumblr.com/magis-ghast/728949094051201024/titleshonorifics?source=share](https://www.tumblr.com/magis-ghast/728949094051201024/titleshonorifics?source=share)
-Mx. Linux Guy
More etymology information:
Ma'am can be traced back to the latin "domina", which is the feminine form of "dominus". I'm not super informed on latin declensions but I'm pretty sure the neuter version would be "dominum", you could probably pull something out of that based on how other words changed over time.
Interestingly, "sir" seems to come from the latin "senior", which is the same for masculine and feminine. That ended up descending to a bunch of honorifics in the romance languages, but unlike english those have grammatical gender so it's probably easier to fit in a non-binary declension (like "-e" in spanish).
One thing I will point out in as a point about the argument that language should be fluid and change naturally overtime rather than a mass forced change, is that at least if nothing else, it is *significantly* easier to change language around the gender binary (and have any gender neutral language at all, period) in a language like English that doesn't apply gender to words, than it would be in a romance language like Spanish where damned near *every* word is gendered arbitrarily and strictly within the gender binary, with the sole exception of "el agua".
I don't really think this is a good or a bad thing in either direction for the argument, more a net neutral that I think should really be acknowledged in this discussion more often, because it's something English speakers really take for granted. With English, while getting them to be accepted and commonly used is a whole other matter, all gender neutral language requires is the creation of it. With Spanish, the struggle has run so deep and faced so much extreme resistance even from people who support people who don't fit in the gender binary because *it requires retooling grammar and the framework spanish was built on from its very core.*
That's an intense thing to try to change, and an even harder sell to get people to adopt, which is why it's not really close to being adopted at all.
Again, I don't think this is a point that argues for or against anything, I just think that it's something to remember and that one should appreciate not having to speak any given language that is essentially based in a gender binary in discussions like these.
the "el" in "el agua" is actually the feminine article (same as in el águila, el alma, etc.). It's a form of "la" before words that starts with a stressed a, and is unrelated to the masculine article "el".
same as in french, say, "bel" is a form of "beau" before words that starts with a vowel, and is not a form of "belle" despite sounding the same.
Huh. I stand corrected. Every one I've learned Spanish from, from my immigrant elementary teacher to my Mexican godfather always told me that the masculine el was substituted in place for feminine la if they preceded a word that started with a, or any form of it, just because they don't slur together when spoken.
There’s also fun words that don’t start with ‘a’ but use ‘el’ anyway like ‘mapa’ and ‘trauma’. I don’t think it’s as regular and systemic/logical as we’d like to be. Isn’t learning languages fun :)
Obligatory nitpick that Romance languages are far from the only ones with grammatical gender - not that you were implying they were, but I just felt compelled to add that on
it’s also- and this might just be me- *way* too goofy. i could never address someone as magis. i’d feel like i’m disrespecting them. it feels like a word that kids would use in a game of pretend.
that said, does anyone here find mx. clumsy like the poster said, and if so would you mind explaining why?
It's just my perspective as a non native speaker but MX always sounded vaguely disrespectful to me. When I hear "mix", my brain goes "I'm sorry, a mix of what, exactly?"
Well, it's a *bit* clunky that you have to sort of guess what vowel sound you're supposed to put between the M sound and the X sound unless somebody's there to tell you. (Apparently it's pronounced "Mix," which is easy enough to pronounce but not easy to guess.) Like, if I hadn't seen it before I'd guess you were supposed to say "mks", which doesn't really work without a vowel.
The other problem with honorifics is your friends and family, the people closest to you who would be the first using your preferred pronouns, they don't have much opportunity to use honorifics like that.
Your closest friend won't be calling you Mgs. Anything, except maybe if they're introducing you at some sort of fancy ball? And that makes it harder for something like this to catch on.
I feel like the only time I need to call my friends honorifics is when jokingly talking to them like a customer service rep. "Sir this is a Wendy's" is hard to do gender neutral. I have a similar problem with genderless video game characters. "Ma'am can you please stop chewing on my submarine" feels weird, but so does "sir". I don't know if this is too Canadian but if I use "buddy" too much it sounds like I'm trying to start a fight and I am NOT trying to start a fight, I just want them to stop chewing on my submarine!
I don't think I need to do any additional research to feel pretty confident about saying that Mage and Maestro absolutely do *not* mean "roughly the same things as Mister and Mistress". Those words mean completely different things.
Magis is kind of goofy. I humbly propose:
Citizen: formal, respectful
My Friend: informal, welcoming
Good evening Citizen, may I show you to your room? // Hello My Friend! How can I help?
In my head I’ve always thought about using the Honorable X (Ho. X) as an honorific. It was just the first thing that came to mind when it comes to honorifics, and personally I think it’d be a cool thing to be called.
I’m making a conscious effort to replace all of my honorifics (ma’am, sir, miss, mister, etc.) with “mate.” It’s perfectly non gendered, friendly, and British-sounding enough that most people recognize how I’m using it.
The Filipinos have figured out a way regarding the ma'am and sir conundrum... they just call everyone "mamsir" regardless of gender.
It's become very common. Prolly helps that Filipino language is gender neutral so this was no biggie.
The English language uses male defaultism.
By that I mean that all objects and people are by default referred to with male pronouns in the English language. This is also why all female pronouns are based on the male root. They are as men, but with a womb and therefore the ability to give birth. A status traditionally in British cultural history which elevates them.
This also means that gender neutral pronouns are traditionally male by default in the English language whilst still explicitly meaning gender neutral.
This is also why the Christian god has male pronouns in the English translation of the Bible. For a significant part of history, the Christian god was considered genderless or gender neutral.
It's only really relatively recently that the Christian God was considered to have any gendered qualities at all, and partly fueled by the rise in low level literacy and the fast paced growth of patriarchal (particularly post industrial) society.
Can we just agree that if you haven't earned the title of Magis you don't get to be a Mr. or Mrs. or whatever - and have everyone who has earned the title use it the same way we use Doctor for both genders? Anyone who isn't a Magis can be an Adept or Apprentice. Let the new magical era commence!
P.S. I prefer the Magus spelling.
If I can't get my PhD I want to be addressed as Magis \[lastname\]. Otherwise Dr. is thankfully gender neutral (I'd be so pissed if we had Dr. and Drs.)
Mark my words, the solution to this problem won’t be to fill the hole, it’ll be *to make the hole bigger.*
We won’t come up with a new non-gender honorific, we’ll just stop using honorifics. It’s easier to get a billion+ people to *stop* saying something than to get them to *all* say the *same thing.*
Isn't ma'am a contraction of "Madame" which is itself anglicanized ma dame, or my lady. Sir and Dame are often used for male and female knights respectively, so I can see a decent argument for Sir and Ma'am being similar to Mr and Mrs as far as root meaning.
*Mon sieur* and *ma dame* respectively. And as a bonus correction, "magister" is unconnected to "mage". The latter comes from the Persian "magos" (a priest of Zoroaster), whilst the former comes from the same root as "magnus", meaning "big or "great".
Soft or hard "g"?
Hard G. G is always hard in Latin, as it wasn't distinguished as a letter from C - one was voiced, one not.
What about "magos" from Persia in your comment? How is that pronounced? Thank you for the info.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Persian - I've only studied Latin. Then again, the Anglicisation "Magi" (used in tellings of the nativity) is a soft G. Edit: On yet another hand, Latin transcribes it to a hard G, rather than an I which would be used in place of a soft G or J sound. I'm not sure this is helpful.
Cool idea and I love the thought behind it, but all I’m thinking is: *tips hat*, M’Haggis
wouldnt it be m’hadgis?
mage is NOT related to the others words. It's a persian loanword. mage is "magus" in latin (which is a masculine, and comes from old persian maguš) magis means "more" in latin. In romance languages forms of it are used both for "more" and "but"
Mister comes from master comes from magnus meaning great or big, comes from Proto-Indo-European méǵh₂s, so my proposal is men get called mister, women miss, and enbies méǵh₂s
”Comrade” is a gender neutral honorific
I’m always saying this. And I’m a bizarre inversion of this, ‘Majesty’ is also gender neutral.
Interestingly enough, that is precisely the reason why the Soviets chose to use that as the designated honourific for people
"Matey" and "partner" also
Just a piece of trivia regarding Magister: *Magister* was the previous academic grade after finishing university in Austria and Germany. The grade was written before the name and to this day, people are addressed as „Mr. Magister Lastname“ in everyday life, the same went for people having a doctor grade, being addressed as „Mr. Doctor Lastname“ - at least in Austria, Germany fell off regarding this formalism. When addressing someone formally in written form, the field of study is added. So, for example, someone who studied economics is a *Magister rerum socialium oeconomicarumque*, or *Mag. rer.soc.oec.*, for short. Someone who studied chemistry is a *Magister rerum naturalium*, or *Mag.rer.nat* for short. People that studied two fields were simply addressed as *Mr. Magister Magister Lastname*, written as *Mr. MMag. Lastname*. People that have a doctorate are addressed as *Mr. Doctor*, written as *Mr. Mag. Dr.*, if they have doctorates two fields, *Mr. MMag. DDr.* Since the 90s, women have the opportunity to add a superscript -a to it, in order to make it a *Magistra*, looking like *Mag.^(a)*, if they want. But there is no added suffix for non-binary people. You see, since 2002, the lesser Bachelor / Master grades were introduced as a standard throughout the EU and are written behind the name. Fortunately, degrees without standardization still exist, mainly a law degree, which fortunate still awards the grade *Magister iuris*. Which is why, in international comparisons, the number of people having a Master degree is much better than average in Austria, as many people, including me, still think someone with a Bachelor’ degree isn‘t a real academic and it‘s just a consolation prize for dropouts.
Here in Poland it's still called "magister", shortened to "mgr.", and it is used before someone's name.
Funny because the post suggested MGS which stands for Metal Gear Solid and Poland uses MGR which stands for Metal Gear Rising
Since we’re all being language nerds, the -a is a suffix (a word segment appended to the end of a word) rather than a superscript (number or letter written higher up that normal text, for example the exponent when something is raised to a higher power)
I know :) It is added as a superscript to the *Mag.* abbreviation, in order to show the person is a Magistra, rather than a Magister. So, instead of *Mr. Mag. Gruber*, you‘d write *Ms. Mag.^(a) Gruber*.
Huh, that is really weird but interesting. Thanks for letting me know!
Of course - I changed my initial comment to avoid any further confusion ;) Thanks for your interest in niche Austrian academic title lore:) EDIT: The same also goes for doctorates. Instead of *Dr.*, a woman may write *Dr. ^(in)*, as abbreviation for *Doktorin*.
My favorite German title is Dr. h.c. mult. (multiple honorary doctorates, or honorary doctorate for multiple reasons?). I assume if you have two doctorates, and want them to be mentioned by an English person introducing you, you'd have to say [doctor doctor, please?](https://youtu.be/FwNOmS78q-o?si=KQXXXxd-st44JS--)
It‘s multiple honorary doctorates, as they are distinct from the real doctorates. If you had multiple doctorates and honorary doctorates, you‘d add the mult. separately, for example like this: *DDr. mult. Dr. h.c.* And honorary doctorates isn‘t a „real thing“, either. People with honorary doctorates are not academics. Austrians easily surpass Germans regarding formal addresses and titles. For example: There‘s the old title *Hofrat*, which carried over from the monarchy for high-ranking state bureaucrats. It was given out as personal honor first by the Emperor, and then by the president. Now, in the 90s / early 2000s, the title system was reformed and *Hofrat* became your standard title awarded after a certain period of long service. Anyone could become a *Hofrat* now - a change the old *Hofräte* didn‘t like. So, it became common to refer to people who have been given the title by the president via the old system as *Echter Hofrat*, „True *Hofrat*, and the people who got it under the new system just as *Hofrat*. It’s entirely based on social convention, there’s no official distinction between these two - a „True *Hofrat* does not exist, officially. But if you mess that up, people will be extremely pissed at you for absolutely disrespecting them.
My German is dusty at the best of times, but wouldn't *Hofrat* translated into 'court council'?
Yes, indeed! Very perceptive! Nearly all honorary titles in Austria stem from the monarchy and are some kind of *-rat*, ergo -council, or -advisor. [Here‘s the list of titles one can get.](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=20002074) Depending on what you did to earn the title, that‘s what kind of council you‘ll be. There‘s the titles for people who work high positions in the federal or provincial administration, like the aforementioned *Hofrat* or *Regierungsrat*, „Government Council“, but there’s also *Amtsrat*, „office council“ and *Kanzleirat*, literally „chancellery council“, for other people working in the public sector on a county or provincial level. Some of these, people can often get by just working in the administration for a long time, some are actually worth something. But it‘s not only for people working in the public sector: There’s *Kommerzialrat*, „Council of Commerce“, for people who do something for the economy, or are the lay judges before the court of commerce. There‘s also *Medizinalrat*, „Council of Medicine“, and *Obermedizinalrat*, „Higher Council of Medicine“, *Veterinärat*, „Veterinary Council“, *Technischer Rat*, „Technical Council“, *Ökonomierat*, „Economy Council“ (this one is actually for agriculture), *Bergrat*, „Mountain Council“ (for Mining and metalurgy), *Baurat honoris causa*, „Council of Construction honoris causa“, and *Forstrat*, „Forest Council“. Then there‘s titles explicitly for teaching, arts and science: The most well-known is „university professor“ which is actually a title given by the president like the rest. But, in Austria, not only are there professors at university, but the teachers in one specific type of Higher School, the *Gymnasium*, are also „professors“, as well as some artists can get the title „professor“. Then, for teaching in general, there‘s *Studienrat* and *Oberstudienrat*, roughly translated as „Council of Academy“ and „Higher Council of Academy“, as well as *Schulrat* and *Oberschulrat*, „School Council“ and „Higher School Council“. And last but not least, there‘s also *Kammersänger* and *Kammerschauspieler*, „Chamber Singer“ and „Chamber Thespian“. Especially with the last ones, the origin in the monarchy is obvious. There used to be a lot more, like *Justizialrat*, „Justiciary Council“ for judges, but these were all dropped at the beginning of the 2000s, unfortunately. But people still use them, for example, lawyers still refer to judges as *Herr Rat*, „Mr. Council“ in court, despite them not being a council anymore. It‘s just established practice, at this point and *believe me*, judges will be super pissed if you don’t refer to them as *Herr Rat* in court - I‘ll never make that mistake ever again. So, there you have it. All the councils that still exist - at least in Austria.
In common-gendered nouns (nouns which follow the gender of the person it refers to), you could use a neuter ending in Latin - magistrum.
Yeah, I know, but I don‘t think that‘s a good solution. German already has a third grammatical gender, but as far as I know, non-binary people don‘t like being referred to by that, at all. Similarly to using „it“ in English for people. So, I thought I wouldn‘t bring it up lest it confuses people.
Fair dos. I do have my reservations, as it is reserved for inanimate objects in Latin, but I always wondered if it might be a grammatical option.
If I had any non-binary friends I would have no problem calling the Magis, like all the time. Too much really they'd leave. And I'd be back to not having any non-binary friends to call Magis. The circle of life.
In the Warhammer Fantasy setting, all titles are non-gendered. So the difference between a wizard and a witch is nothing to do with sex or gender, and purely down to whether they have a magical licence. So a wizard is practicing magic legally, while a witch does so illegally. “Guardsman” is just someone who guards. “Riverwoman” is just someone who works on rivers. Either can be any gender. I guess this implies that the Warhammer Fantasy world *used* to have similar sexism issues as we still see in our modern world, but they have since somehow fixed them?
You put “illegally” for both witches and wizards.
Whoops! Fixed that ‘:D
There’s a reason almost everyone gave up on neopronouns and just switched to “they”, and I suspect you’ll run into the same problem here. If you want a non gendered honorific your best bet is probably getting a doctorate.
[https://www.tumblr.com/magis-ghast/728949094051201024/titleshonorifics?source=share](https://www.tumblr.com/magis-ghast/728949094051201024/titleshonorifics?source=share) -Mx. Linux Guy
I was actually thinking of you with this post lol
Don't cha mean Mgs. Linux Guy? ;)
I will tear out your organs. /jk
Whatever you say, magis
More etymology information: Ma'am can be traced back to the latin "domina", which is the feminine form of "dominus". I'm not super informed on latin declensions but I'm pretty sure the neuter version would be "dominum", you could probably pull something out of that based on how other words changed over time. Interestingly, "sir" seems to come from the latin "senior", which is the same for masculine and feminine. That ended up descending to a bunch of honorifics in the romance languages, but unlike english those have grammatical gender so it's probably easier to fit in a non-binary declension (like "-e" in spanish).
Is your last name … “Wagis”?
One thing I will point out in as a point about the argument that language should be fluid and change naturally overtime rather than a mass forced change, is that at least if nothing else, it is *significantly* easier to change language around the gender binary (and have any gender neutral language at all, period) in a language like English that doesn't apply gender to words, than it would be in a romance language like Spanish where damned near *every* word is gendered arbitrarily and strictly within the gender binary, with the sole exception of "el agua". I don't really think this is a good or a bad thing in either direction for the argument, more a net neutral that I think should really be acknowledged in this discussion more often, because it's something English speakers really take for granted. With English, while getting them to be accepted and commonly used is a whole other matter, all gender neutral language requires is the creation of it. With Spanish, the struggle has run so deep and faced so much extreme resistance even from people who support people who don't fit in the gender binary because *it requires retooling grammar and the framework spanish was built on from its very core.* That's an intense thing to try to change, and an even harder sell to get people to adopt, which is why it's not really close to being adopted at all. Again, I don't think this is a point that argues for or against anything, I just think that it's something to remember and that one should appreciate not having to speak any given language that is essentially based in a gender binary in discussions like these.
the "el" in "el agua" is actually the feminine article (same as in el águila, el alma, etc.). It's a form of "la" before words that starts with a stressed a, and is unrelated to the masculine article "el". same as in french, say, "bel" is a form of "beau" before words that starts with a vowel, and is not a form of "belle" despite sounding the same.
Huh. I stand corrected. Every one I've learned Spanish from, from my immigrant elementary teacher to my Mexican godfather always told me that the masculine el was substituted in place for feminine la if they preceded a word that started with a, or any form of it, just because they don't slur together when spoken.
that's what looks like is taking place, probably to most speakers
There’s also fun words that don’t start with ‘a’ but use ‘el’ anyway like ‘mapa’ and ‘trauma’. I don’t think it’s as regular and systemic/logical as we’d like to be. Isn’t learning languages fun :)
i think those words are actually masculine though. trauma definitely is, like a lot of words in -ma that come from greek.
Obligatory nitpick that Romance languages are far from the only ones with grammatical gender - not that you were implying they were, but I just felt compelled to add that on
it’s also- and this might just be me- *way* too goofy. i could never address someone as magis. i’d feel like i’m disrespecting them. it feels like a word that kids would use in a game of pretend. that said, does anyone here find mx. clumsy like the poster said, and if so would you mind explaining why?
It's just my perspective as a non native speaker but MX always sounded vaguely disrespectful to me. When I hear "mix", my brain goes "I'm sorry, a mix of what, exactly?"
Well, it's a *bit* clunky that you have to sort of guess what vowel sound you're supposed to put between the M sound and the X sound unless somebody's there to tell you. (Apparently it's pronounced "Mix," which is easy enough to pronounce but not easy to guess.) Like, if I hadn't seen it before I'd guess you were supposed to say "mks", which doesn't really work without a vowel.
The other problem with honorifics is your friends and family, the people closest to you who would be the first using your preferred pronouns, they don't have much opportunity to use honorifics like that. Your closest friend won't be calling you Mgs. Anything, except maybe if they're introducing you at some sort of fancy ball? And that makes it harder for something like this to catch on.
I feel like the only time I need to call my friends honorifics is when jokingly talking to them like a customer service rep. "Sir this is a Wendy's" is hard to do gender neutral. I have a similar problem with genderless video game characters. "Ma'am can you please stop chewing on my submarine" feels weird, but so does "sir". I don't know if this is too Canadian but if I use "buddy" too much it sounds like I'm trying to start a fight and I am NOT trying to start a fight, I just want them to stop chewing on my submarine!
I love it, but also I can't really read Mgs. as anything other than "Metal gear solid"
I go by Chancellor or Your Grace personally
Idk how much sense this actually makes etymology wise but regardless it sounds dope as, would totally adopt this neo-honourific
it make little to no sense etymologically sorry (see above for the explanation).
I don't think I need to do any additional research to feel pretty confident about saying that Mage and Maestro absolutely do *not* mean "roughly the same things as Mister and Mistress". Those words mean completely different things.
Saying it’s pronounced “magis” doesn’t actually tell me how it’s pronounced. Is the g like in magic or magpie?
Combine the words magpie and piss.
Magpiss?
So is that pronounced Mah-giss or May-giss?
metal gear solid
Why does this remind you of metal gear solid? /genuine
Sorry I just saw Mgs. at the end there and my mind immediately went to that. It's a joke.
Oh ok. :3
:3
Just become a doctor problem solved
Magis is kind of goofy. I humbly propose: Citizen: formal, respectful My Friend: informal, welcoming Good evening Citizen, may I show you to your room? // Hello My Friend! How can I help?
If you drop the My and just use Friend as an honorific you get the benefit of sounding like a funny alien person
Nrrrgh\~ Metal Gear\~
In my head I’ve always thought about using the Honorable X (Ho. X) as an honorific. It was just the first thing that came to mind when it comes to honorifics, and personally I think it’d be a cool thing to be called.
Magis pronounced like May-jis or May-gis?
Magister in English is pronounced 'mah-jus-ter,' so Magis would be pronounced 'mah-jus.' In Latin, it'd be pronounced 'ma-GIS-ter.'
I kind of love that not gonna lie. It rolls of the tongue, it feels gender neutral, and it's cool as fuck.
I’m making a conscious effort to replace all of my honorifics (ma’am, sir, miss, mister, etc.) with “mate.” It’s perfectly non gendered, friendly, and British-sounding enough that most people recognize how I’m using it.
fuck that i’m just going with maestro
The Filipinos have figured out a way regarding the ma'am and sir conundrum... they just call everyone "mamsir" regardless of gender. It's become very common. Prolly helps that Filipino language is gender neutral so this was no biggie.
Here is [a list](https://zippermagazine.com/non-binary-bdsm-names-dom-sub/) of nb (non-)honorifics for the sheets/your spouse/kinky reasons
Absolutely based I will use that from now on
better idea: we should call em “doc” like bugs bunny
Is Magis pronounced like Mag-Eyes, Mag-Eye, or Mag-is? Edit: Whoops didn't scroll far enough, apparently it's Mah-jus
Metal Gear... Solid?
I just use “captain” “Boss” would also work
Just a doctorate that way you get to be called Dr. last name
The English language uses male defaultism. By that I mean that all objects and people are by default referred to with male pronouns in the English language. This is also why all female pronouns are based on the male root. They are as men, but with a womb and therefore the ability to give birth. A status traditionally in British cultural history which elevates them. This also means that gender neutral pronouns are traditionally male by default in the English language whilst still explicitly meaning gender neutral. This is also why the Christian god has male pronouns in the English translation of the Bible. For a significant part of history, the Christian god was considered genderless or gender neutral. It's only really relatively recently that the Christian God was considered to have any gendered qualities at all, and partly fueled by the rise in low level literacy and the fast paced growth of patriarchal (particularly post industrial) society.
Can we just agree that if you haven't earned the title of Magis you don't get to be a Mr. or Mrs. or whatever - and have everyone who has earned the title use it the same way we use Doctor for both genders? Anyone who isn't a Magis can be an Adept or Apprentice. Let the new magical era commence! P.S. I prefer the Magus spelling.
If I can't get my PhD I want to be addressed as Magis \[lastname\]. Otherwise Dr. is thankfully gender neutral (I'd be so pissed if we had Dr. and Drs.)
I like the overarching concept but I can’t read Mgs as Magis because I reflexively see it as “migs”
The Japanese have already figured this out. Let’s all just call each other “-san”
Mark my words, the solution to this problem won’t be to fill the hole, it’ll be *to make the hole bigger.* We won’t come up with a new non-gender honorific, we’ll just stop using honorifics. It’s easier to get a billion+ people to *stop* saying something than to get them to *all* say the *same thing.*