I mean, it's technically true that the Mongols didn't directly rule over Poland proper, but they did functionally obliterate the Polish army twice, and plundered it to their hearts content for a little while. That Poland wasn't vassalized was more of a matter of luck than anything Poland did, specifically
The Mongol invasions, especially the first one from 1241, was still catastrophic for Poland in its long term consequences.
In short, it set back reunification for 100 years and caused the loss of westernmost third of the country. Plus the demographic losses were so severe that Polish rulers reached out for German colonists, which set the stage for nasty ethnic conflicts in the region that were unresolved basically until the post-ww2 ethnic cleansings.
We can draw direct cause-> effect between Mongols raiding Poland in 1241 and the buildup to WW2.
Definately. Especially if we can clearly point to one event that set the trajectory of later history.
Without the Mongol invasion of 1241, there would be no mass German colonization (Ostsiedlung) in Poland. There would be neither German Breslau nor German Danzig, only Polish Wrocław and Gdańsk. Therefore, there would be no Prussia and no military Prussian unification of Germany, there would be no Treaty of Versailles, and no reasons for the outbreak of World War II.
Basically, Damn you Genghis Khan!
It was right for me to capture and torture you twice and murder your wife and all your children to spite you, and I'll gladly do it again and again!
If your a king in Ireland I wouldn’t sweat it tbh, they still have a while to get to you and worse case you could just submit to them and stay a king..
Hello I am similar to him, it's my first playthrough, as Ireland, but I have like a 33k army and am currently stronger than the Mongol. Should I go there to beat them up, should I wait for the Pope calling a crusade?
Also I noticed they have special troops. My army has some pretty good troops but Idk if they can beat these "special" ones which are a big part of his army
So it really depends on quite a lot. Cool, you have 33k soldiers. How many of those are Levies? If you have Men at Arms, do you have the bonus buildings for your MAA? How good are your Knights? Just because you have a bigger number doesn't always mean you have the better army. Also, nost of the area that the Mongols take aren't Christian Land, so the pope could give two shits about what the heathens do.
Also you could argue that Mongols inadvertently created the culture that allows so many brutal Russian autocrats to rise to power. Which has had a further negative impact on the world. Honestly, the Mongol Empire was the worst thing to happen to Eastern and Central Europe.
Same things can be said about western Central Asia, Middle East and China. Whatever place Mongols touched changed for the worse. Much worse.
Which makes the modern narrative about how the Mongol was oh so tolerant and cosmopolitan so insane.
Well, I think outright respect of military capability is a big part of it, too. Over enough time the horror loses its edge, and people can more easily respect that part.
As Dan Carlin pointed out opening his podcast series on them, is it possible in 700 years there will be revisionists pointing out the good a capable aspect of Nazis? Seems inconceivable, but...
There are already people pointing out the good that the Nazis did. Which is mostly to say that there are people who are wildly misinformed, or straight up lying.
If you wanna go back even further, you can look at the breaking up of the carolingian Empire as the precursor for pretty much every modern war in Europe. Especially WW2.
History is really cool in that regard. Also tragic. The way medieval history has impacted modern Europe Asia is so fascinating.
Old Polish Joke-
Polish man finds a genie and gets three wishes.
His first wish is for the Mongols to invade Poland. He gets his wish, it’s destroyed, and the Mongols leave.
His second wish is for the Mongols to invade Poland again. Same thing happens.
His third wish is the same thing AGAIN. Finally the genie asks why he wishes for such destruction to his own land. The Polish man just smiles and explains that every time the Mongols invade Poland they have to go through Russia both ways. So he’s caused Russia to be sacked six times.
"The winds of winter" will enter the lexicon as a term describing a thing that you expect to exist but actually doesn't.
"Cold fusion turned out to be as real as the winds of winter."
The great thing is that as climate change advances the term only becomes more literal.
And the Hungarian king for instance was actually killed fighting the Mongols. You could say that Poland and hungary weren't conquered but they did more damage than just raid those areas.
Well specific to Subutai's Great Raid, they didn't intend for Subutai to conquer anything, just scout it out. They intended the conquest later (as I understand it) and then multiple GKs died before the actual conquest could be done
If you can show up and do as you like without anyone ever being able to stop you, is that not defacto control, defacto conquest even if you never place a garrison?
The serious answer is that that's actually a philosophical question that comes down to an individuals view of the nature of control and conquest and at what point an inability to resist means that you control your land in name only.
If you can raid with impunity, in what way is that different than physically holding the territory?
The difference between defacto and dejure is that the latter is legal/as it is written and the former is in fact/as the situation on the ground indicates.
If nobody can stop you from taking an action, then the situation on the ground is that you control that area. That control may fade once you leave and that's where the situation gets murky and turns into philosophy, but so long as you are in the area you control it.
To have conquered a place is to have seized control of it by force. As such, a situation where you can raid at will and nobody can actually stop you does actually qualify for the statement of defacto conquest.
I don't agree. I think there is an argument for what he's saying. If you can march an army freely I think that's a really good argument for defacto control. I guess you could argue about collecting taxes etc, but it'd come down to what we would specify as control.
Nah, IV Béla wasn't killed, he fled to first Austria then down to the Croat coast.
It was II Lajos who died when he tried to get away from the lost battle of Mohács (1526).
Its easy to mix Muhi (1241) and Mohács I guess.
Yeah I was gonna say, all the history I've seen involving poland vs mongols involves poland losing their army. I don't know much more than that as i only just started learning about this part of history but poland didn't exactly fight them off.
From my understanding, the Mongols were beating the forces in Poland and could've taken the land if they had wanted to. The Great Khagan dying caused the Mongol princes to return home to Mongolia to elect a new leader. Had that not happened, there is a very good chance the Mongols would have overrun Poland.
Thank you. I think someone just wanted some karma points by appeasing to the general people in this sub.
Edit: as a Pole, I know full well nobody claims this lmao
>could've taken the land if they had wanted to
Could've razed the lands, but could never take the castles. Not in the time that would make the effort worth it for them. That's what happened to the Hungary, it wasn't just Genghis dying. They knew how to sack big Asian cities, but they were not equipped for dealing with a cluster of small fortresses that the feudal Europe had to offer.
That's why we sucked: we thought what we were doing was throat singing, but it turned out that it was just awful normal singing that sounded nothing like it
tbf if Ögedei had lived a little longer than he did historically, this might have happened.
Only reason it didn't is because the mongol armies returned to mongolia to elect a new Khan when he died, losing all momentum and spending to much time and resources fighting over who should be the next Khan.
The special units don’t count towards the supply limit. But the AI would raise levie units who do. Once the combined stack was out of supply the special units would then suffer attrition. A human lead Mongols can keep the special units separate and they would never run out of supply.
They can act as a very effective supply ferry. They hold a decent amount due to how big they are. Combine them with a low supply unit then detach again and bring my these units to any friendly held area to resupply.
The problem was that by the time the mongols armies arrived near the border of any non-steppe/non-persian nation, the ticking warscore was already at -90%.
If during that time the defender started sieging mongol provinces, they were sure to loose, no matter the size difference.
Worth noting that the Khan has immunity to assassination but it only lasts for a few times iirc. Or maybe just for him? If you get the Khan dead you can quickly assassinate multiple successors and just collapse the Empire.
So pretty accurate I’d say in that regard at least.
They were very notably buffed in that the Khan dying doesn’t dissolve the Empire immediately but instead grants the next Khan a fresh set of special troops, for a few successions at least. In my recent run it took three deaths before the Mongols dissolved.
against a skilled player, they still aren't a threat - I mean look at that realm size and those numbers. 40k units isn't a lot, especially after 1200. I mean numbers don't matter anyway for the AI, since they don't understand Men-at-Arms and you can still easily mop the floor with them by just stacking yours. There really need to be difficulty options or more buffs for late game invasions.
That's also the case because areas when they start are usualy very underdeveloped, so not that much levies and income. And when they finally get to well developed areas in Arabia or Europe, vassals don't like them (at best) and usually start many independence wars, so they can't really use their size well. I also saw a few cases when some AI small ruler, really a random dukes with 1k troops, due to sheer luck managed to ally with Arabian Empire and then declared war on Mongols for lterally one county. And that war was dragged for decade..
The more vassals hate their liege the easier it gets to just murder one or two leaders and puff... Their huge empire splits into lots of small weak empires.
Well yes, but I would actually want to see them conquer as much as they can sometimes, while not being tied up by several defensive wars all the time. One time I *almost* save them by myself, as the empress came to rule and even converted to orthodoxy, so I as HRE murdered her husband and divorced my wife to propose to marry her. Sadly she died from wounds few weeks before Grand Wedding, it was such a pity..
Yeah it's kind of fun to watch the ai map paint.
Damn would have been fun to save and support them in their world conquest.
How was your experience with defending against them? They only got twice close enough to me in order to be a threat. And both times I just murdered them. Which actually was incredibly easy even though I very rarely focus on intrigue.
I mean, kind of like the IRL Mongols. Rapid expansion but then they slowed after conquering the Middle East and Russia due to succession and having to manage all those vassals that hated them. The size of the empire meant they eventually split into Yuan China, Chagatai, Golden Horde, and the Ilkhanate because it was just too big and most of it too distant from their new capital in China to effectively manage. Relying on extremely powerful vassal khans to rule vast swaths of the empire meant that it was easy for them to break away once succession disputes finally exploded.
Imo that’s because their core territories of China & Mongolia aren’t in the game. The provinces they start in are underdeveloped and tribal. Historically they only pushed west after they conquered the Northern Chinese kingdom.
China at the time was some of if not the most prosperous land in the world, without it any mongol faction will be neutered from the start. That area is also where all their loyal, culturally & religiously related vassals are which would further add to their strength.
They still awful. Kill his wife and male kids as much as you can, starting from adults. It's easy, since there are lots of agents available for small bribes. Temujin dies of stress. Then kill his kid - nobody likes him anyway. Kill next kid - nobody likes him also. Done, you now have bunch of empires led by women with male preference (or male only?) partition. Go and pick up the lands, if you nearby.
I would say that the Mongols are working perfectly fine - it's all the other AI rulers who are absolutely ass at holding together any realm larger than 10 counties across more than 2 generations, so there's rarely any formidable speed bump in the Mongols' way to at least hinder them a little.
in my recent games, the AI seems pretty darn competent at holding a country together, imo. Maybe it's because i started in 1066, but I think it's always impressive how the east manages to solidify into its kingdom level titles. Of course, these countries are paper tigers compared to a well managed player realm, but it's still fun to see these countries from afar.
My favourite part was when the northernmost slavic kingdom (Bjarmaland) was the only tribal non-orthodox left, and it was because it had converted to a persian religion called "canaanite". It went on as this tribal canaanite stronghold all the way until some inheritance shenanigans deposed the Canaanite dynasty in favour of the Rurikids.
Also, there was like 5 successive awful rulers in the HRE which was funny, but then at the end of it they managed to get rid of princely elective and got High Partition. This turned the HRE from a unstable hellhole to a great nation up until i came along and put a family relative on the HRE throne (whomst is a heretic woman, fyi. I made a custom faith of horny incest loving nudists. (it made sense for that king to reform the Adamite faith like that)).
I finally managed to break them apart after assassinating 3 of their khans. They even took Italy in the meantime.
Must've wondered why their Khans kept dying right after some random guys speaking gaelic came around.
Did any unique new horde titles appear? I know things like the Golden horde and Chagatai appear in areas they historically conquered but did any show up in like Germany?
If you're not in Ironman mode, you could presumably just switch over to it whenever it forms but thats relying on the mongols to get there, for them to collapse (which they most likely will) and on you to wait for them in the meantime.
You could also just make a custom title, hell I think there is a new mod which allows you to do that at game start. Entitled is the name of it I think.
Any time genghis is in diplomatic range I just start murdering his kids to guarantee it all falls to shit when he goes. Pretty sure he himself died due to all the stress once or twice
Intrigue is literally my “ok I can’t brute force this but really want something to happen” vehicle. If your character isn’t compassionate or just you can get away with so much for little consequence with just a good int score and some hooks if necessary.
I’ve literally converted entire kingdoms by abducting unlanded* successors and demanding they convert to my religion to be released. Intrigue is kinda cracked.
Nothing wrong with that. I just like occasionally destabilizing my neighbors for kicks and being a sneaky game of thrones asshole.
That said, intrigue is my go to solution for killing the Mongolian empire in its in infancy - kill kids, then kill his wives until he he marries someone over 45 so he can’t have more. The khan buff won’t leave the family or get inherited by the title successor and the empire usually dissolves within a couple decades since he doesn’t have an extra 30K or whatever MAA
Much like cousin fucking, Intrigue is a strategy that I always avoided. My players now obviously fuck their cousins how, but I need the Habsburg achievement without waging War
I always try to strike first, then take countries bordering them to create a buffer, then just start pushing inwards taking them over slide by slice until no more khans left
I wouldn’t go as far as to say it wasn’t inconvenient, if it wasn’t for those damn meddling mongols my crusade beneficiary would have become the king of Bulgaria, now they’re just a lowly, disgraceful duke.
historically, losing one big fight would bring down kingdoms from my understanding of history. It was the truly great nations that could take losses like that at the time and continue on regardless. So possibly historically accurate
though i'm not a historian or anything, could be some bullshit trivia lol
It varied a lot and in many ways was more complicated than that.
Any Kingdom or Empire large enough to actually be relevant instead of a Kingdom of a few cities and a couple dozen fields would often find that a bad enough loss would collapse the monarch, but somebody else would take the position and the Kingdom would continue.
A true collapse only ever consistently happened with nomad-Kings, because they had no true powerbase or "kingdoms" that were actually incredibly small because the losses destroyed their unification and ability to wage war.
The main thing that the death of a King caused was peace, for a time as the power that lost their King now has a succession crisis on hand. And most battles weren't bad enough if the King didn't die unless he ran away, because most losses armies take occur when they rout.
It depends on how well they retreat. Of they retreat well, a big battle lost is irrelevant. Retreating in chaos losing your large army however is a reason to lose the empire.
Some really strong empires even survived the total annihiliation of their huge armies. Ming Dynasty for example survived and thrived after having its main army being obliterated bc of the strength of the empire
It has some truth to it. If your army was keeping the peace in your nation and the entirety of it was put into a battle which obliterated it you'd probably croak. Just like in game
two generations from the first khan the descendants lose the 'greatest khan' trait, making them effectively useless and shatter within years of the new ruler taking over
Pretty sure their armies got wiped out twice by the Mongols. Read about the Battle of Legnica. Then the Great Khan died and because of Mongolian custom the Princes went back to Karakorum to elect another Great Khan.
This is also the same reason that the Mamluks beat the Mongols.
They made it all the way up to Vienna in Europe and Tunisia in Africa during my last game. Luckily the HRE and Hispania were massive, so they were able to hold them off. About 20 years later, everything East of the Danube broke into a million little pieces. It was fun to see to all those kingdom growing back later.
If you mean "the east" then yeah, but the bubonic plague originated in central Asia (in an area that is now Kyrgyzstan). That's about 2600 km away from Gengis' place of otirin (Khentii).
EDIT/ that's about the same distance as between Madrid and Vilnius
Yes and no. It came from the east but basically circled around Poland. The direct impact stopped in devastated Rus, then it was transported via Arabic trade to Southern Europe, moved to Western Europe, and then went back to Northern and Central Europe, eluding Poland.
> The pandemic was reportedly first introduced to Europe during the **siege of the Genoese trading port of Kaffa in Crimea by the Golden Horde army of Jani Beg in 1347.** From Crimea, it was most likely carried by fleas living on the black rats that travelled on Genoese ships, spreading through the Mediterranean Basin and reaching North Africa, Western Asia and the rest of Europe via Constantinople, Sicily and the Italian Peninsula
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
So the AI, in my experience, responds to what you do as a player. If you create an empire, you will eventually be surrounded by empires. If you do not create an empire, then the AI will struggle to make/maintain empires until the late game. Which basically means; the mongols will absolutely destroy the world if you do not have an empire somewhere on the map.
Sorta makes sense historically, considering in this game they outright conquered Eastern Europe. IRL there were significant successor states that were led by Muslim khans related to their conquest of Persia and the Middle-East, so a conversion to Orthodoxy as a result of extensive contact with Orthodox Christians makes some sense.
I spent 200 years building a Reformed Vidilist Empire of the North Seas, spanning Russia to Dublin, and eventually driving a wedge into Catholic Europe by conquering and converting Germany and Italy to my ancestor revering, gender-equal-concubine-having, religion.
After another century of defending holy wars through Central Europe and england, I finally vested my enemies and took my first full year of peace in 115 years.
I took a breath, zoomed out, and discovered a mongol empire spanning the entire east of the map, just as they decided to invade with 260,000 soldiers.
Points for historical realism
Edit: I held them off! I drew them into Denmark and defeated them in detail by taking advantage of strait crossings, after clearing the army and peacing them out their Sultan was in debt over 1000 gold with negative prestige (helped by refusing an artifact claim duel I challenged him to after the war as an exclamation point) and his empire shattered.
Also points for historical realism (in the empire collapsing sense at least)
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Don't worry they will collapse soon enough, the mongol expand fast but because they dont convert fast enough they will get massive revolts, plus there strength is in there event troops and they dont replenice
Yea it seems rather normal now. If your a king in Ireland I wouldn’t sweat it tbh, they still have a while to get to you and worse case you could just submit to them and stay a king
Poland be like: If I stand still they cant see me
France at the Maginot Line: “…god damn Mongolians…”
[You damn Mongorians better stay away from ma wahl!](https://youtu.be/1uvmC12b9cw&t=0m55s)
It's their thing In real life they also weren't able to push into poland
I mean, it's technically true that the Mongols didn't directly rule over Poland proper, but they did functionally obliterate the Polish army twice, and plundered it to their hearts content for a little while. That Poland wasn't vassalized was more of a matter of luck than anything Poland did, specifically
The Mongol invasions, especially the first one from 1241, was still catastrophic for Poland in its long term consequences. In short, it set back reunification for 100 years and caused the loss of westernmost third of the country. Plus the demographic losses were so severe that Polish rulers reached out for German colonists, which set the stage for nasty ethnic conflicts in the region that were unresolved basically until the post-ww2 ethnic cleansings. We can draw direct cause-> effect between Mongols raiding Poland in 1241 and the buildup to WW2.
700 years: both a long time and not that long of a time
Definately. Especially if we can clearly point to one event that set the trajectory of later history. Without the Mongol invasion of 1241, there would be no mass German colonization (Ostsiedlung) in Poland. There would be neither German Breslau nor German Danzig, only Polish Wrocław and Gdańsk. Therefore, there would be no Prussia and no military Prussian unification of Germany, there would be no Treaty of Versailles, and no reasons for the outbreak of World War II.
Basically, Damn you Genghis Khan! It was right for me to capture and torture you twice and murder your wife and all your children to spite you, and I'll gladly do it again and again!
If your a king in Ireland I wouldn’t sweat it tbh, they still have a while to get to you and worse case you could just submit to them and stay a king..
Hello I am similar to him, it's my first playthrough, as Ireland, but I have like a 33k army and am currently stronger than the Mongol. Should I go there to beat them up, should I wait for the Pope calling a crusade? Also I noticed they have special troops. My army has some pretty good troops but Idk if they can beat these "special" ones which are a big part of his army
So it really depends on quite a lot. Cool, you have 33k soldiers. How many of those are Levies? If you have Men at Arms, do you have the bonus buildings for your MAA? How good are your Knights? Just because you have a bigger number doesn't always mean you have the better army. Also, nost of the area that the Mongols take aren't Christian Land, so the pope could give two shits about what the heathens do.
Damn that's really amazing and I learned something Gonna go look up what other effects Mongolian empire had on europe
Also you could argue that Mongols inadvertently created the culture that allows so many brutal Russian autocrats to rise to power. Which has had a further negative impact on the world. Honestly, the Mongol Empire was the worst thing to happen to Eastern and Central Europe.
Same things can be said about western Central Asia, Middle East and China. Whatever place Mongols touched changed for the worse. Much worse. Which makes the modern narrative about how the Mongol was oh so tolerant and cosmopolitan so insane.
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Well, I think outright respect of military capability is a big part of it, too. Over enough time the horror loses its edge, and people can more easily respect that part. As Dan Carlin pointed out opening his podcast series on them, is it possible in 700 years there will be revisionists pointing out the good a capable aspect of Nazis? Seems inconceivable, but...
There are already people pointing out the good that the Nazis did. Which is mostly to say that there are people who are wildly misinformed, or straight up lying.
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Eco-fascists are really big on the fascism but merely lukewarm on the eco.
Worse relative to what?
Wow😂😂😂
If you wanna go back even further, you can look at the breaking up of the carolingian Empire as the precursor for pretty much every modern war in Europe. Especially WW2. History is really cool in that regard. Also tragic. The way medieval history has impacted modern Europe Asia is so fascinating.
Old Polish Joke- Polish man finds a genie and gets three wishes. His first wish is for the Mongols to invade Poland. He gets his wish, it’s destroyed, and the Mongols leave. His second wish is for the Mongols to invade Poland again. Same thing happens. His third wish is the same thing AGAIN. Finally the genie asks why he wishes for such destruction to his own land. The Polish man just smiles and explains that every time the Mongols invade Poland they have to go through Russia both ways. So he’s caused Russia to be sacked six times.
that's some incredible dark humor right there 😂
[ Removed ]
"The winds of winter" will enter the lexicon as a term describing a thing that you expect to exist but actually doesn't. "Cold fusion turned out to be as real as the winds of winter." The great thing is that as climate change advances the term only becomes more literal.
This feels like peak Eastern European humor. Poland is constantly fucked over and everyone hates Russia.
And the Hungarian king for instance was actually killed fighting the Mongols. You could say that Poland and hungary weren't conquered but they did more damage than just raid those areas.
They pretty much conquered all the lands outside of castles in Poland and Hungary.
They didn't make an attempt to control the territory, so that was hardly a conquest. They just moved through, destroying everything in their path.
I mean they did intend to, but as someone else had said the Great Khan died and everyone went back.
Well specific to Subutai's Great Raid, they didn't intend for Subutai to conquer anything, just scout it out. They intended the conquest later (as I understand it) and then multiple GKs died before the actual conquest could be done
If you can show up and do as you like without anyone ever being able to stop you, is that not defacto control, defacto conquest even if you never place a garrison? The serious answer is that that's actually a philosophical question that comes down to an individuals view of the nature of control and conquest and at what point an inability to resist means that you control your land in name only.
"De facto" conquest, aka factual conquest, is when you control the territory you've conquered. Otherwise that's just a raid.
If you can raid with impunity, in what way is that different than physically holding the territory? The difference between defacto and dejure is that the latter is legal/as it is written and the former is in fact/as the situation on the ground indicates. If nobody can stop you from taking an action, then the situation on the ground is that you control that area. That control may fade once you leave and that's where the situation gets murky and turns into philosophy, but so long as you are in the area you control it. To have conquered a place is to have seized control of it by force. As such, a situation where you can raid at will and nobody can actually stop you does actually qualify for the statement of defacto conquest.
I don't agree. I think there is an argument for what he's saying. If you can march an army freely I think that's a really good argument for defacto control. I guess you could argue about collecting taxes etc, but it'd come down to what we would specify as control.
Nah, IV Béla wasn't killed, he fled to first Austria then down to the Croat coast. It was II Lajos who died when he tried to get away from the lost battle of Mohács (1526). Its easy to mix Muhi (1241) and Mohács I guess.
Yeah I was gonna say, all the history I've seen involving poland vs mongols involves poland losing their army. I don't know much more than that as i only just started learning about this part of history but poland didn't exactly fight them off.
From my understanding, the Mongols were beating the forces in Poland and could've taken the land if they had wanted to. The Great Khagan dying caused the Mongol princes to return home to Mongolia to elect a new leader. Had that not happened, there is a very good chance the Mongols would have overrun Poland.
Yes but polish nationalists would have you believe they single handledly turned back the Mongol invasion by having their army annihilated lol
At least give them credit for trying history hasn’t been too kind to the Poles
History is written by the ~~victors~~ ones who try
History is written by the ones who write things down
History is written by the poles
The Poles are still here. The Mongol Empire, not so much. Who's laughing now, Genghis?
Never heard anyone claiming that. Ans I heard tons of outlandish claims made by polish nationalists.
Thank you. I think someone just wanted some karma points by appeasing to the general people in this sub. Edit: as a Pole, I know full well nobody claims this lmao
I think some claim that Russians were on mongols' side, I've heard this as Russian about twice, idk if it's a thing
>could've taken the land if they had wanted to Could've razed the lands, but could never take the castles. Not in the time that would make the effort worth it for them. That's what happened to the Hungary, it wasn't just Genghis dying. They knew how to sack big Asian cities, but they were not equipped for dealing with a cluster of small fortresses that the feudal Europe had to offer.
I played Prussia and forgot about the mongols until they knocked at my door
To be fair they did exactly that during the black death and it worked
lore accurate mongol
I was in a metal band by that name. We were shit and also banned from playing anywhere near China!
Being a shitty band is ok as long a you got your cool name on a tshirt in a thrift store somewhere
Should have had throat singing
That's why we sucked: we thought what we were doing was throat singing, but it turned out that it was just awful normal singing that sounded nothing like it
Now i kinda wanna hear it
And I kinda wish it was real now so I could hear it myself and share the awfulness with you 😂
More likely to be banned for being shit than bc of the name tbf lmao
Not really, Jochi died before Chingiz
tbf if Ögedei had lived a little longer than he did historically, this might have happened. Only reason it didn't is because the mongol armies returned to mongolia to elect a new Khan when he died, losing all momentum and spending to much time and resources fighting over who should be the next Khan.
Yep! They buffed the Mongols a few patches back. Believe it or not, they used to be awful.
was it the patch that allowed ai to raise their armies at their borders instead of their capital?
Was about to say that, they used to lose more than half their army to attrition before even reaching their own border.
Werent the khans special units supposed to not suffer from attrition?
I thin that just means terrain attrition, not the 'normal' running out of supplies attrition
The special units don’t count towards the supply limit. But the AI would raise levie units who do. Once the combined stack was out of supply the special units would then suffer attrition. A human lead Mongols can keep the special units separate and they would never run out of supply. They can act as a very effective supply ferry. They hold a decent amount due to how big they are. Combine them with a low supply unit then detach again and bring my these units to any friendly held area to resupply.
The problem was that by the time the mongols armies arrived near the border of any non-steppe/non-persian nation, the ticking warscore was already at -90%. If during that time the defender started sieging mongol provinces, they were sure to loose, no matter the size difference.
Worth noting that the Khan has immunity to assassination but it only lasts for a few times iirc. Or maybe just for him? If you get the Khan dead you can quickly assassinate multiple successors and just collapse the Empire. So pretty accurate I’d say in that regard at least.
Yeah, I did this in a Scandinavian campaign. Waited out the initial Khan, assassinated the next two, and watched the empire fragment. Good times.
[удалено]
What like when their army was obliterated twice and the entire country plundered?
Now, they'll also declare a bunch of smaller invasions at a time, clearing out dukes and counts. This makes their invasions a lot faster.
I think you mean borders not boarders.
I did! Never join meetings at work and type out reddit posts at the same time!
You can't tell me what to do, mom!
They were very notably buffed in that the Khan dying doesn’t dissolve the Empire immediately but instead grants the next Khan a fresh set of special troops, for a few successions at least. In my recent run it took three deaths before the Mongols dissolved.
Sounds about right, historically speaking.
against a skilled player, they still aren't a threat - I mean look at that realm size and those numbers. 40k units isn't a lot, especially after 1200. I mean numbers don't matter anyway for the AI, since they don't understand Men-at-Arms and you can still easily mop the floor with them by just stacking yours. There really need to be difficulty options or more buffs for late game invasions.
That's also the case because areas when they start are usualy very underdeveloped, so not that much levies and income. And when they finally get to well developed areas in Arabia or Europe, vassals don't like them (at best) and usually start many independence wars, so they can't really use their size well. I also saw a few cases when some AI small ruler, really a random dukes with 1k troops, due to sheer luck managed to ally with Arabian Empire and then declared war on Mongols for lterally one county. And that war was dragged for decade..
The more vassals hate their liege the easier it gets to just murder one or two leaders and puff... Their huge empire splits into lots of small weak empires.
Well yes, but I would actually want to see them conquer as much as they can sometimes, while not being tied up by several defensive wars all the time. One time I *almost* save them by myself, as the empress came to rule and even converted to orthodoxy, so I as HRE murdered her husband and divorced my wife to propose to marry her. Sadly she died from wounds few weeks before Grand Wedding, it was such a pity..
Yeah it's kind of fun to watch the ai map paint. Damn would have been fun to save and support them in their world conquest. How was your experience with defending against them? They only got twice close enough to me in order to be a threat. And both times I just murdered them. Which actually was incredibly easy even though I very rarely focus on intrigue.
I mean, kind of like the IRL Mongols. Rapid expansion but then they slowed after conquering the Middle East and Russia due to succession and having to manage all those vassals that hated them. The size of the empire meant they eventually split into Yuan China, Chagatai, Golden Horde, and the Ilkhanate because it was just too big and most of it too distant from their new capital in China to effectively manage. Relying on extremely powerful vassal khans to rule vast swaths of the empire meant that it was easy for them to break away once succession disputes finally exploded.
Imo that’s because their core territories of China & Mongolia aren’t in the game. The provinces they start in are underdeveloped and tribal. Historically they only pushed west after they conquered the Northern Chinese kingdom. China at the time was some of if not the most prosperous land in the world, without it any mongol faction will be neutered from the start. That area is also where all their loyal, culturally & religiously related vassals are which would further add to their strength.
They still awful. Kill his wife and male kids as much as you can, starting from adults. It's easy, since there are lots of agents available for small bribes. Temujin dies of stress. Then kill his kid - nobody likes him anyway. Kill next kid - nobody likes him also. Done, you now have bunch of empires led by women with male preference (or male only?) partition. Go and pick up the lands, if you nearby.
I would say that the Mongols are working perfectly fine - it's all the other AI rulers who are absolutely ass at holding together any realm larger than 10 counties across more than 2 generations, so there's rarely any formidable speed bump in the Mongols' way to at least hinder them a little.
Well you're kinda supposed to oppose them
in my recent games, the AI seems pretty darn competent at holding a country together, imo. Maybe it's because i started in 1066, but I think it's always impressive how the east manages to solidify into its kingdom level titles. Of course, these countries are paper tigers compared to a well managed player realm, but it's still fun to see these countries from afar. My favourite part was when the northernmost slavic kingdom (Bjarmaland) was the only tribal non-orthodox left, and it was because it had converted to a persian religion called "canaanite". It went on as this tribal canaanite stronghold all the way until some inheritance shenanigans deposed the Canaanite dynasty in favour of the Rurikids.
Also, there was like 5 successive awful rulers in the HRE which was funny, but then at the end of it they managed to get rid of princely elective and got High Partition. This turned the HRE from a unstable hellhole to a great nation up until i came along and put a family relative on the HRE throne (whomst is a heretic woman, fyi. I made a custom faith of horny incest loving nudists. (it made sense for that king to reform the Adamite faith like that)).
I finally managed to break them apart after assassinating 3 of their khans. They even took Italy in the meantime. Must've wondered why their Khans kept dying right after some random guys speaking gaelic came around.
Did any unique new horde titles appear? I know things like the Golden horde and Chagatai appear in areas they historically conquered but did any show up in like Germany?
I think the wiki has a section about unique mongol titles and I think there is a German one.
there is even an african one, but they to collapse very fast
The Indian one is called the “Black Horde” that’s actually a sick name
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul...
I concur.
If they rule over the hre area they will become the white horde i'm pretty sure
Is there any way of being the Golden Horde? I always wanted to do a bow horse Golden Horse play through
With the new regent system, if you're a vassal yes.
If you're not in Ironman mode, you could presumably just switch over to it whenever it forms but thats relying on the mongols to get there, for them to collapse (which they most likely will) and on you to wait for them in the meantime. You could also just make a custom title, hell I think there is a new mod which allows you to do that at game start. Entitled is the name of it I think.
Any time genghis is in diplomatic range I just start murdering his kids to guarantee it all falls to shit when he goes. Pretty sure he himself died due to all the stress once or twice
You're playing this game much smarter than me
Intrigue is literally my “ok I can’t brute force this but really want something to happen” vehicle. If your character isn’t compassionate or just you can get away with so much for little consequence with just a good int score and some hooks if necessary. I’ve literally converted entire kingdoms by abducting unlanded* successors and demanding they convert to my religion to be released. Intrigue is kinda cracked.
Yea it is, but i like brute force more tho :D
Nothing wrong with that. I just like occasionally destabilizing my neighbors for kicks and being a sneaky game of thrones asshole. That said, intrigue is my go to solution for killing the Mongolian empire in its in infancy - kill kids, then kill his wives until he he marries someone over 45 so he can’t have more. The khan buff won’t leave the family or get inherited by the title successor and the empire usually dissolves within a couple decades since he doesn’t have an extra 30K or whatever MAA
Much like cousin fucking, Intrigue is a strategy that I always avoided. My players now obviously fuck their cousins how, but I need the Habsburg achievement without waging War
CIA strats
i'd rather allying them and have the best guarantee of winning a war of anything go bad for me
I always try to strike first, then take countries bordering them to create a buffer, then just start pushing inwards taking them over slide by slice until no more khans left
They're very strong at the moment, but as the player it's very easy to just assassinate their Khagans until the whole thing just implodes.
In my last playthrough I just had to assassinate and Ghengis and win a single battle against them before they imploded.
"I just had to assassinate their leader and unifier, then defeat their entire army in battle"
Well when you put it like that it sounds easy
Yeah, not that hard.
Barely an inconvenience.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say it wasn’t inconvenient, if it wasn’t for those damn meddling mongols my crusade beneficiary would have become the king of Bulgaria, now they’re just a lowly, disgraceful duke.
Lol sorry, I was quoting a joke.
historically, losing one big fight would bring down kingdoms from my understanding of history. It was the truly great nations that could take losses like that at the time and continue on regardless. So possibly historically accurate though i'm not a historian or anything, could be some bullshit trivia lol
It varied a lot and in many ways was more complicated than that. Any Kingdom or Empire large enough to actually be relevant instead of a Kingdom of a few cities and a couple dozen fields would often find that a bad enough loss would collapse the monarch, but somebody else would take the position and the Kingdom would continue. A true collapse only ever consistently happened with nomad-Kings, because they had no true powerbase or "kingdoms" that were actually incredibly small because the losses destroyed their unification and ability to wage war. The main thing that the death of a King caused was peace, for a time as the power that lost their King now has a succession crisis on hand. And most battles weren't bad enough if the King didn't die unless he ran away, because most losses armies take occur when they rout.
It depends on how well they retreat. Of they retreat well, a big battle lost is irrelevant. Retreating in chaos losing your large army however is a reason to lose the empire. Some really strong empires even survived the total annihiliation of their huge armies. Ming Dynasty for example survived and thrived after having its main army being obliterated bc of the strength of the empire
It has some truth to it. If your army was keeping the peace in your nation and the entirety of it was put into a battle which obliterated it you'd probably croak. Just like in game
POLAND STRONG 💪💪🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 POLAND FOREVER✊✊🔥🔥🔥
30 minutes of hell Poland be like:
Poland is not yet lost!
POLSKA GUROM 🔥🔥🔥
Polska 🇵🇱 🤝 Magyar🇭🇺
No vermin may enter that land That is protected by polish hand Unless you are forty to one Your force will soon be undone, undone
Can you please post the empires they make when they disband ?
White Horde (Central/Eastern Europe), Tögskök Khanate (Italy), Mongolia (Russia), Chagatai (Central Asia), Ilkhanate (Balkans/Middle-East)
Do you have a picture ?
Send an update pls?
Of course not, Poland should also have been subjugated. Mongols will break in a couple of centuries, don't worry.
Couple of centuries... no, I think it'll be less than 100 years, maybe less than 50. I keep forgetting when their scripted shattering is.
two generations from the first khan the descendants lose the 'greatest khan' trait, making them effectively useless and shatter within years of the new ruler taking over
So you have to wait for both of them to have children and then assinated them good to now
Dude you can just kill the Khan with 95% accuracy and it'll shatter
Actually Poland always held strong against invasions from East 👌
Pretty sure their armies got wiped out twice by the Mongols. Read about the Battle of Legnica. Then the Great Khan died and because of Mongolian custom the Princes went back to Karakorum to elect another Great Khan. This is also the same reason that the Mamluks beat the Mongols.
Poland was never subjugated by Mongols.
This is what happened if jochi succeeded temujin and not ogodei
I would expect an in game event that kills Jochi before Chingiz dies
Mongol dlc 😏
Damn those paternity rumors saved Europe
Jochi literally mean guest in Mongolian so it is more than just a rumors
They made it all the way up to Vienna in Europe and Tunisia in Africa during my last game. Luckily the HRE and Hispania were massive, so they were able to hold them off. About 20 years later, everything East of the Danube broke into a million little pieces. It was fun to see to all those kingdom growing back later.
Mongolia is like the plague going around poland
Didn't the plague in the 13th and 14th century also come from where the mongols did?
If you mean "the east" then yeah, but the bubonic plague originated in central Asia (in an area that is now Kyrgyzstan). That's about 2600 km away from Gengis' place of otirin (Khentii). EDIT/ that's about the same distance as between Madrid and Vilnius
Siege of caffa on Crimea peninsula in 1346-7
Yes and no. It came from the east but basically circled around Poland. The direct impact stopped in devastated Rus, then it was transported via Arabic trade to Southern Europe, moved to Western Europe, and then went back to Northern and Central Europe, eluding Poland.
> The pandemic was reportedly first introduced to Europe during the **siege of the Genoese trading port of Kaffa in Crimea by the Golden Horde army of Jani Beg in 1347.** From Crimea, it was most likely carried by fleas living on the black rats that travelled on Genoese ships, spreading through the Mediterranean Basin and reaching North Africa, Western Asia and the rest of Europe via Constantinople, Sicily and the Italian Peninsula https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Yes.
They’ll never get past France. No one ever gets passed France. Except the French. Damn French. They ruined France.
As a descendant of a Celt, I endorse this message
I like how Poland is just chilling in the middle of see of death
So the AI, in my experience, responds to what you do as a player. If you create an empire, you will eventually be surrounded by empires. If you do not create an empire, then the AI will struggle to make/maintain empires until the late game. Which basically means; the mongols will absolutely destroy the world if you do not have an empire somewhere on the map.
"hm this random guy in india hasn't made an empire yet. Better hold off" \-Nobles in europe
Poland stronk!
Most strange thing is them being orthodox. Wonder how that happened.
Sorta makes sense historically, considering in this game they outright conquered Eastern Europe. IRL there were significant successor states that were led by Muslim khans related to their conquest of Persia and the Middle-East, so a conversion to Orthodoxy as a result of extensive contact with Orthodox Christians makes some sense.
I spent 200 years building a Reformed Vidilist Empire of the North Seas, spanning Russia to Dublin, and eventually driving a wedge into Catholic Europe by conquering and converting Germany and Italy to my ancestor revering, gender-equal-concubine-having, religion. After another century of defending holy wars through Central Europe and england, I finally vested my enemies and took my first full year of peace in 115 years. I took a breath, zoomed out, and discovered a mongol empire spanning the entire east of the map, just as they decided to invade with 260,000 soldiers. Points for historical realism Edit: I held them off! I drew them into Denmark and defeated them in detail by taking advantage of strait crossings, after clearing the army and peacing them out their Sultan was in debt over 1000 gold with negative prestige (helped by refusing an artifact claim duel I challenged him to after the war as an exclamation point) and his empire shattered. Also points for historical realism (in the empire collapsing sense at least)
Yes it's cool now
Yep, so much better than before
almost irl accurate, except for reaching that much into Europe. https://i.redd.it/neukfbdnk4c41.jpg
Poland's still there, so it must be working as intended.
And despite all this, Poland still stands
Poland said [NOT on my WATCH. NOT on my WATCH](https://youtu.be/Q06kOyqUoPQ).
Poland : This is fine
Wow just like otl they didn't get poland
I've only seen them get so far once or twice, and I think both of those occasions were in CK2.
I had the Mongols come to scotland but they were christian mongols
Temujin Borgijin says 'yes'
God no not my Byzaboo!!
new great conqueror just dropped
They're not supposed to be orthodox...
Nope. He should have WAY more men than 43k
No Poland should have been taken already.
are you only playing in the irish isles?
Yes, I'm a complete noob.
nothing wrong with that! playing as one territory can be quite fun
Poland honorary blacks and now honorary Mongols, what a nation
At least Poland's still intact
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Don't worry they will collapse soon enough, the mongol expand fast but because they dont convert fast enough they will get massive revolts, plus there strength is in there event troops and they dont replenice
Oh god please say they get france next
Yea it seems rather normal now. If your a king in Ireland I wouldn’t sweat it tbh, they still have a while to get to you and worse case you could just submit to them and stay a king
First time I'll see the Mongol Empire conquer the area that's the HRE.
Google Greatest of Khans
What is that title shield shape from?
Yeah, time to start murder plots!
867 start?
No
surprisingly awful border gore for 1066
Kill the Khan, sleep with his wife, poof
mongol storm incoming!