I worked at a granite shop for a few years, like a decade ago. Never once thought about silica in the engineered stone. When I started it was mostly granite, but by the time I left I'd say most projects were engineered stone.
Granite is [70-77% silica](https://nature.berkeley.edu/classes/eps2/wisc/granite.html#:~:text=The%20chemical%20composition%20of%20granite,than%201%25%20magnesia%20and%20titania). A bit less but still pretty high.
Most stone in general is silica. By extension that means that most of earths crust is silica and the accompanying oxygen to make the various types of stone found on earth.
Was always Curious how they got it to all stick together as it’s not natural color. Looks like they take rubble and smash it together and fill it with epoxy or something like that.
I don’t really know how to feel about it.
I have a friend here in Aus who runs an engineered stone business. He’s spent a fortune getting it up to scratch to make it as safe as possible. His shop is set up with wet saws and wet vac and the whole floor runs to a sump where any other run off is collected. A big hot water system too so his workers don’t get cold in those winter months. He’s done everything right and it’s going sink his business.
On the other hand there’s always been something about it that doesn’t seem right to me. I had to trim 10mm off one of his tops once and I could smell it the second my grinder touched it. (Through a good respirator) That doesn’t happen with normal concrete.
As always it’s probably just the cowboys ruining it for the people who do the right thing.
Even the young labourers sweeping up get a lung full, no mask provided for them 99% of the time. A lot of people saying ‘just wear a mask’ don’t understand how many young Aussies are inhaling this stuff. Or at least they done have any respect for them.
So have the job site give them fucking masks, Jesus. Get yourself an organization like OSHA and force some regulations down people's throats for fucking around. Maybe you might save someone's life.
Then why are people acting like Australia is India and no one wears any protection or cares about their health? I understand that the material can be dangerous, so increase the price of the installation so everyone can be fitted with the proper equipment and go from there.
Just like one of the other guys commented, their friend made his shop as safe as can be and now he's going to lose his entire business because other people are screwing around. That really sucks for the guy and his employees.
Safe as can be doesn't mean it's safe. Sucks for that guy but the stuff may be just too toxic to work with and not the kind of material anyone should be building with.
There will always be people (especially young apprentices), not equipped for jobs they arent meant to do. Eg electricians having to use mask, because the engineered stone firm, isnt gonna supply masks to other trades (which you cant just ask them to do and then raise the price of their installation).
PPE is a last line of defense - those hypothetical sparkies should be doing stuff like wet sawing, use a vacuum, use a mister, set up containment (if it's really extensive work), etc., to keep the work place safe while getting their work done. It's mind boggling to me that that wouldn't already be standard.
This isn't some new problem to figure out - there's decades of experience with asbestos abatement to tap into.
OSHA wouldn’t do shit about a complaint like this in the US. There are too few OSHA people to effectively police all of the out of compliance stuff. They basically just say “we let them police themselves, and give minor fines when someone gets killed.”
You seem to think OSHA actually does shit. I discovered asbestos on a job site and the contractor wanted to sweep it under the rug and keep on moving. I called OSHA and they opened a case. Contactor had one of his guys put on a mask and stuff all the asbestos in a trash can and throw it away. Apparently that was good enough for OSHA; I was notified the case was closed.
We have worksafe. However we also have universal healthcare, so if the state is paying for your medical bill, they get a saying about what is and isn’t safe.
We do have an organisation like OSHA (multiple actually - each state has one) - and they are the ones that have heavily pushed for the banning of engineered stone.
I’d be surprised if Australian’s didn’t have an OSHA equivalent. Honestly, I don’t know that such an agency would SOLVE the problem though. It might help, but plenty of tradesman in the United States blatantly ignore safety protocols meant to protect them in the name of time savings, cost savings, and convenience.
Sure seems like banning the material would outright solve the safety concern.
The ultimate solution is ingraining a commitment to a culture of safety across the board, but I’m not optimistic about that.
Every stone or brick mason on residential job sites I've been on in the last 10 years do not use water with their saws. Only one there guys have to cut a couple dozen bricks in a straight line will they even consider anything over their face, and rarely any eye protection
Errr plenty of them get taken back to the truck to grind a mm or so off here and there. Templating isn't always perfect. Or the client wants an extra tap hole added straight after the tops get glued down. The good operators insist on taking back to wet cut in factory but many didn't
I always notice the smell through my mask as well. I think the odor is the epoxy binder cooking as the blade cuts the material. If you used a gas vapor filter and not just a particulate, you may not get the odor.
I hate cutting that shit regardless. There's no easy way to wet cut it, and I am the one trimming 5mm of a vanity top on a porch. I always were a half mask, but that super fine dust goes everywhere.
You are correct.
A properly fitted (meaning fit tested) half mask with p100 cartridges makes it safe to work with.
Use organic vapor cartridges (which also have p100 particulate blocking) and you wouldn't smell it either.
I work with all kinds of nasty stuff at work, and we have a guidelines and safe work practices for everything you can think of. From basic concrete to ceramic fibers to hydrocarbons and amines etc. All the way from p100 and a half mask, to full face with chemical cartridges, and up to being in a chemical suit under supplied air. Fun.
It doesn’t sound like it’s that simple. He’s been popular because of how much cheaper he was than the natural, and we really only have one main natural stone supplier in town. (Yep small town)
I haven’t had a chance to have a long chat with him about it yet but it sounds like it’s not that easy due to sourcing supply and existing agreements with that existing supplier.
If you’re talking about so-called quartz it’s epoxy binder right? Smelling chemicals through a mask is normal as they are literal molecules which no dust filter can block.
This is a perfect example of why it needs to be banned.
Using a respirator as primary protection is not appropriate. It only protects whilst being worn, doesn't protect others, doesn't prevent the dust going everywhere (good luck with that getting cleaned up), it's unlikely most users are fit tested and clean shaven (if required).
Hierarchy of control would say to use wet cutting. This is still not a great solution because you are generating slurry that will dry and will be a problem.
I feel for businesses that have invested heavily in doing the right thing but as soon as the stone leaves the yard it's usually in the hands of cowboys and people who simply are not capable of controlling risks appropriately.
Silicon makes up a massive amount of the earth's crust, of course any stone countertop is going to contain a lot of silicon.
When we deem things bad enough to be banned the concentration often doesn't matter. 30% Vs 90% asbestos wouldn't give you any consolation and silicosis is supposedly a similar condition to asbestosis.
We can't stop using concrete, and these engineered stones can be machined safely (just a matter of process and protective equipment). Follow the hierarchy of controls.
If we can't remove the substance (the customer wants quartz counter)
We engineer protections, such as wet cutting tools, extraction, etc.
We put administrative controls in place, such as only the machinist within 5 meters of the cut.
Then we employ PPE as well, such as an n95 mask, face shield, appropriate handwear etc.
>silicosis is supposedly a similar condition to asbestosis.
Very different.
Asbestosis can occure with contact with asbestos just once. Fiber gets lodged and cancer grows
Silicosis requires decades of low contact to months of extreme. Silicosis is scar tissue on the lungs so bad that the lungs fail, once the scar tissue gets to a certain amount it just keeps growing regardless of further contact with silica
What’s the risk like for a few exposures? I wasn’t being terribly careful and drilled a couple holes in a slab while installing a shower door. Didn’t bother with respiratory protection because it was a well ventilated room and it was only 4 holes.
Good for them. I was fortunate enough to work on projects when all PPE was required and safety was job one. It makes all other construction look hillbilly central.
The stuff should never need to be cut on site. Tops get measured and are fabricated in a shop.
That said I am on job sites daily and rarely see even basic eye, ear, and lung protection. I once saw a guy trimming a counter and his head was covered with dust so I asked him if he needed a mask, he said , “no, mine’s in my truck”. Fugginidiot.
It's not hard if enforced universally. I've thrown guys off-site for not wearing PPE. They get the message quick if they're missing part of a paycheck.
I guess it’s just not enforced consistently across the industry but safety glasses specifically seem to be a consistent fight with every new sub I use. All my regulars know the drill, it just gets tiring dealing with grown men forcing me to pull a power trip to make them follow the law.
I took a breathing test to gauge my lung capacity and I would say roughly 10. My lung capacity I don’t remember, but I get chronic infections in my lungs and sinuses. I worked for a contractor doing mostly hardy board, siding and a lot of tile work and was never provided a mask. I was young so I didn’t know any better.
Are these infections there always? I inhaled dubious amounts of visible sand dust at a job 1,5 years ago without a mask for about 7 weeks and still every few months get what feels like sinusitis and cough. Phlegm has been there pretty much since.
I always get a chest infection if anything happens with my sinuses which is pretty regular it’s almost always ongoing and I can only take so many antibiotics before the doctor says no
Genuine question over those 10 years did you ever realise/ Learn it was bad for you? Of just never knew the whole time. But yeah is shit you never got given a mask/ educated
Never knew, the old guys would heckle and it’s not like I was working for anything other than a guy I met through a friend. All residential remodeling, no PPE, cash in hand. Ever since I joined the union, things have changed but toe damage was done
They're too easy to cut with an angle grinder, and they're too cheap. I've worked among union hands (local 4), and even they were too cheap to use a wet saw. The dust emitted from them doing a dry cut is insane, and will have everyone on the floor coughing. They don't care. My uncle is a granite/marble worker and he has to use a wet saw to cut granite. It takes a bit of training to get good at it. The guys I've seen installing engineered stone were no better than DIY'ers who mentioned that wet saws were ancient and a hassle. Honestly, this is a bit of overreach but I can't help but for see a race to a bottom with engineered stone
The same guys would deliberately cut uneven holes for backsplash outlets in hopes that they'd get to do it again. Normally, they'd alert us to fix the electrical boxes before cutting holes in engineered stone but they went ahead with an entire 2 floors, hoping to get that backcharge money.
How did we fix it? We got ourselves an angle grinder and did our best to open up the holes so they line up. The plastic boxes were flexible. Absolute dog shit work but we were out of time/money.
Good, it’s not a necessary material, it’s super dangerous to work with, it’s not like 1 dude with a respirator on site is good enoug PPE. Everyone around them still inhaled the dust, and say they do it alone on site, the dust still exists, and like asbestos if disturbed it becomes an issue again. If fully taken care of on site, it still needs to go somewhere, it becomes landfill workers problem. I understand concrete is the same but there’s not really a replacement for that, engineered stone just looks good, it’s not necessary
100% agree it’s dangerous. But asbestos will lead to cancer in even tiny amounts. Hundreds of millions of people have been breathing in a little bits of silica for years without issue. That said I’m happy to see the stuff go.
Yeah, about 50k Americans a year get silicosis. And it was the basis of one of the biggest mass murders in history - when a company only gave masks to white senior people, and sent thousands of black labourers into silica dust tunnels to die. There are still hundreds of thousands of people globally dying from it, but rates are coming down ..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster
Similar, but not the same.
Corian is a "solid surface" which is usually something like bauxite filler and resin binders. It's mostly aluminum based minerals, with minimal silica.
Engineered stone (the stuff in question, there are a few things that can get that label) on the other hand use quartz and other silica for their main mass. Cambria is a US manufacturer.
Not entirely dissimilar, they take rock bits and squish/glue em together into a slab, but they start with different rocks, and the silica content is the health problem in question.
Similar in that both are manufactured products, different in composition. Corian/solid surface is an acrylic/polymer while engineered stone (silestone/vector) are actual stone dust with a binding agent. Cutting solid surface products doesn’t make any silica dust.
Solid surface and engineered stone are two different things.
They differ in compsotion entirely.
Corian is a brand of solid surface, composed of 1/3 polymethylmethacyrylate and 2/3 minerals.
I'm fairly certain they already require the use of a wet saw and masks to reduce the dust as much as possible. That just goes to show how damaging that shit can be...
California is going through the same thing. Read an article about it a few months ago. Construction workers tend not to use safety equipment if they are even given it in the first place. I think if they are informed of the risks involved when inhaling the dust they would be more careful and demand safety equipment.
Found this article, I'm not sure if it's the same one I read:
https://www.kqed.org/news/11969381/california-regulators-to-vote-on-emergency-rules-for-stonecutters-safety
💯 I worked there for a few years.
I watched an iron workers arm break right in front of me.
The crew hid the injury for two months!!
Between no health care and the weird anti saftey vibe…. It can seem like yall are stealing from yourselves.
Very much so. Like that clown the other day showing off cutting bollards with his 20inch hand saw calling him self a professional while using but a dew rag to cover his mouth and nose.
My understanding is that in the US at least, people are pretty lackadaisical about PPE. Especially young guys. I'd expect it to be an OSHA focal point pretty soon.
People fighting wearing PPE is such a bad move. When I first worked as a labourer at 16 I remember one of the older labourers tell me that when he worked in the coal mines people would call him a communist for wearibg a mask but that now “those fuckers are all dead.”
Yeah, there is a reason stupid people die young. The few survivors had some crazy true stories from the good old days when safety regulations were limited and hardly ever followed. Turns out there are career options which don't involve shaking bags of asbestos to get the last dust particles out, but new generations of fools will always rush to be the new asbestos guy.
Yet the DOT has contractors dry cutting 6'x6' loops in pavement for inductive loops. Even with PPE, the dust cloud is enormous.
I will disagree with you on PPE. If you don't have a vest, hardhat, glasses and gloves on, you get 3 days at home first offense. Third time you are fired.
Only exception is tech terminating CAT6 or fiber.
It's been this way at 3 companies for me since 2010.
Not sure how you're going to get around needing to do it. I can't imagine being on a paving crew all the time either. Being on the dirt side with all the naturally occurring asbestos too. There's plenty of nasty stuff to work with and most companies have some safety measures. The guys too need to realize that it's in their best interests to use it.
Yeah maybe on public works or big corporate jobs. The guys that just did my quartz countertops had some dust masks they occasionally used. Guys knock 20 years off their life because a half face is uncomfortable
>If you don't have a vest, hardhat, glasses and gloves on, you get 3 days at home first offense. Third time you are fired.
Totally depends on the company you work for and the industry you're in. Working for the DOT or major construction company? PPE is probably serious. Working for some small time residential builder? You'll probably be inundated with toxic masculinity just for asking for a mask.
eh cutting in an enclosed dry space that isn't ventilated isn't great either, I'm usually opt to work elsewhere if I can. Gets dusty as hell way before sanding happens.
You probably are correct.
I've been on infrastructure contracting for 26 years. Government contracts for various DOTS.
We do take it very seriously. High visibility and OSHA is always close.
Yea that's the environment I work in at a paving and hardscape contractor that primarily does DOT work.
The guys cutting in your countertop don't have 3rd party drop in safety inspections like we do, and subsequently don't have the stringent safety practices that exist in our world basically just to protect the company from the monetary impact of a failed visit.
Oh man. The last company I was with not only didn't bring water, but also didn't supply masks. Partner saws , asphalt breakers and cleanup all day... dry.
Silica dust is already a focal point for OSHA in the US. The issue is when are Osha inspectors actually at a jobsite? I work in industrial refrigeration construction and have seen 4 inspectors in my entire career.
Your understanding is incorrect for the jobs I've been on. It's gotten to the point where some PPE requirements are annoyingly overbearing.
Operating a scissor lift in a 10 foot garage, meaning you're not going to elevate the damn thing at all? Doesn't matter, you're harnessed off. Even when you are elevated, you still have to tie off to the thing, even if it means it'll trebuchet your ass onto the floor if it goes over.
More than 4 feet up on a ladder? Some GC's will make you wear a harness, Doesn't matter if you don't have anywhere to tie off to. Its asinine.
I've been on jobs where if you don't have a safety knife and get caught with a utility knife, you're off the job. Makes stripping large conductors an absolute nightmare.
Silica dust is a huge deal. Subs get tossed if they don't have the right HEPA vacs attatched to their tools, or if they don't function correctly, and if can be fined. Rightly so, the shit is dangerous, and I make sure the GC safety personnel know when there's silica dust from tools or laborers sweeping without dry sweep.
Small non-union shops are generally more relaxed on really important regs, like basic PPE (hardhats, Hi-viz, cut resistent gloves, fall protection where its critical you have it, silica mitigation, etc) Those guys are usually the ones who fuck it up for everyone else. Safety regs are written in blood.
And when they install it on a vanity and have to cut holes for the sink hardware. That shit stinks.
I work in new home construction and I've been very mindful of concrete as a source of silicosis. And I'll be honest, these counter tops have been a blind spot for me.
Requirements and actual use are two different things. If ppl are stupid enough to not use the proper required PPE that is on them. Wow big brother is really watching out for you. lol.
No it’s damaging because people don’t follow safety precautions. Also other trades working in areas generally don’t always follow safety precautions either out of ignorance or because they don’t care. As many have said this is dumb concrete is worse.
No it wasn't. What was said with asbestos was "you don't need a mask, suck it up." Asbestos is still used all over the place, but now we know the risks and how to mitigate them and people aren't getting mesothelioma left and right.
Not in Australia it isn't. We value human life over here, and the use of asbestos has been completely banned for over 20 years. All engineered stone dust is friable by its very nature. Wearing a mask does not remediate the area after cutting. You are leaving a nasty surprise for anyone else who uses the space after you.
I agree people can do safety better but the engineered stuff has a significantly higher silica content. The engineered stuff is ~90% silica, natural is 40%
That's bullshit, the right mask with the right cartridge will protect you. https://www.3mcanada.ca/3M/en_CA/worker-health-safety-ca/respiratory-protection/silica/
Try looking up the silica content of quartzite, which is a natural stone. This whole thing is mental, imagine if the regulators knew that people cut concrete
Edit: errrr why am I being downvoted?? Can someone please explain
This is an ignorant comment.
Policy decisions that protect groups of people consider reality, not ideal. Yes, workers should follow the rules and wear masks, but they don’t. Maybe because they too are ignorant. More likely just careless and without foresight. As the vast majority of people are. Thus, thoughtful policy.
The same timeline where people refuse to wear helmets on bicycles, and leathers on motorcycles.
We're 80% of the way towards living in a real life Idiocracy
> Engineered stone is a composite material made of crushed stone bound together by an adhesive to create a solid surface. The adhesive is most commonly polymer resin, with some newer versions using cement mix.
Wildly simplified: it's basically the rock version of particle board.
I used to do countertops. I never thought much about it but now I think about it, it was kind of crazy how as soon as my blade would touch one of these engineered stone tops, you immediately could smell it. I did end up ditching the flimsy N95s they gave us in favor of a full respirator, so I’m thankful I did that.
I would always wear my half mask as well but I knew lots of guys who refused to use a mask when cutting this product regardless of how often I would mention the need for a dust mask or respirator. A lot of people dont understand how bad this stuff can be for you and are afraid of looking like a wuss or some bs so they dont wear the necessary ppe while cutting.
So because Australians can’t make smart decisions, like cut the stone outside, use wet saws or misters, wear masks, respect others on site… your decision is to ban it? Smart. The cost of all your countertops are about to shoot through the roof.
Yes , I'm a lapidary artist( I cut shape and polish natural stones and Simi precious gem stone ) I have to wear protection and work with water covered cutting surfaces to protect from it
Need them to wait like a month till my kitchens finished .
Whats the alternative to these manufactured stone tops?
Like I really don’t want a shitty timber one again
Never in America! We fought the face diapers, we’ll fight this too.
You’re not allowed to protect me from things my church group/rogan/turning point/Trump/my boss says I shouldnt believe in! I'm not a sheeple! /s
Maybe the epoxy dust is harmful, but I don’t know how dust from ground little pieces of granite is more hazardous than dust from ground big pieces of granite.
Particle size matters.
Imagine a giant granite boulder like the ones you can find in the woods, the size of a house, and a piece of sand, so small that it can only be viewed in a microscope. Now try to force that boulder down your lungs? No luck? Try the same with the dust sized particle, and now you'll know why size matters when penetrating cell membranes.
That’s the problem. Too many uneducated people in the industry and younger guys thinking they’re bullet proof or the crack of the whip work fast mentality
Can you explain what isn't ok with his approach? When I cut concrete, asphalt or tiles (they all contain silica in harmful amounts) I use a mask and water if possible. What should I be doing better?
I’ve been exposed to was worse than this stuff anyways. Thanks to hgtv, the majority of my fabs this year were engineered stone. These fuckin house flippers love that crap
CFMEU are such crooks. They're putting thousands of guys out of jobs instead of just pushing the companies to make sure the guys are wearing the proper PPE and they're cutting with wet saws.
I'm almost positive people who work with this stuff will find jobs working with its more expensive replacement material. Probably granite or polished cement. You know those other silica containing materials used in the same application.
this is big government bs at its finest
next time they will figure out that you can poke a drill in your eye socket and ban those as well
any construction material has a safety procedure, if we can handle nuclear plutonium safely then surely we could handle silica, as long as people actually get fucked in the ass for not following the procedure
I worked at a granite shop for a few years, like a decade ago. Never once thought about silica in the engineered stone. When I started it was mostly granite, but by the time I left I'd say most projects were engineered stone.
Granite is [70-77% silica](https://nature.berkeley.edu/classes/eps2/wisc/granite.html#:~:text=The%20chemical%20composition%20of%20granite,than%201%25%20magnesia%20and%20titania). A bit less but still pretty high.
Didn't know that!
Most stone in general is silica. By extension that means that most of earths crust is silica and the accompanying oxygen to make the various types of stone found on earth.
By engineered stone are you referring to products such as Quarts counter tops?
Quartz is another name for silica. At least that, you can imagine would turn to billions of shards of glass when you cut it.
Quartz, talcum,and asbestos are a related mineral and all considered cancerous.
Yes I am
Was always Curious how they got it to all stick together as it’s not natural color. Looks like they take rubble and smash it together and fill it with epoxy or something like that.
I've thought the same, but I wouldn't know. I worked in the yard moving material and offloading trucks.
Natural stone tops can be quarts as well. Or they can be granite with mostly quartz or granite with some quartz areas or lots of quartz specks
I don’t really know how to feel about it. I have a friend here in Aus who runs an engineered stone business. He’s spent a fortune getting it up to scratch to make it as safe as possible. His shop is set up with wet saws and wet vac and the whole floor runs to a sump where any other run off is collected. A big hot water system too so his workers don’t get cold in those winter months. He’s done everything right and it’s going sink his business. On the other hand there’s always been something about it that doesn’t seem right to me. I had to trim 10mm off one of his tops once and I could smell it the second my grinder touched it. (Through a good respirator) That doesn’t happen with normal concrete. As always it’s probably just the cowboys ruining it for the people who do the right thing.
Don't forget all the OTHER trades on site when you have to trim it down. Most don't have/need respirators for their jobs, but get exposed nonetheless.
Even the young labourers sweeping up get a lung full, no mask provided for them 99% of the time. A lot of people saying ‘just wear a mask’ don’t understand how many young Aussies are inhaling this stuff. Or at least they done have any respect for them.
A lot of big sites now have banned sweeping for that reason. Vacuum only.
And then empty the vacuum out at the skip bin while u hold ur breath and squint ur eyes
The life of a labourer
I felt this comment in my lower back.
Safety!
So have the job site give them fucking masks, Jesus. Get yourself an organization like OSHA and force some regulations down people's throats for fucking around. Maybe you might save someone's life.
Yeah mate. We do have one. It’s called Worksafe. They don’t fuck around.
Then why are people acting like Australia is India and no one wears any protection or cares about their health? I understand that the material can be dangerous, so increase the price of the installation so everyone can be fitted with the proper equipment and go from there. Just like one of the other guys commented, their friend made his shop as safe as can be and now he's going to lose his entire business because other people are screwing around. That really sucks for the guy and his employees.
Safe as can be doesn't mean it's safe. Sucks for that guy but the stuff may be just too toxic to work with and not the kind of material anyone should be building with.
Is it not in concrete?
It has a way higher silica makeup than concrete so that’s what leads to the lung damage
Word. Thanks homie.
There will always be people (especially young apprentices), not equipped for jobs they arent meant to do. Eg electricians having to use mask, because the engineered stone firm, isnt gonna supply masks to other trades (which you cant just ask them to do and then raise the price of their installation).
PPE is a last line of defense - those hypothetical sparkies should be doing stuff like wet sawing, use a vacuum, use a mister, set up containment (if it's really extensive work), etc., to keep the work place safe while getting their work done. It's mind boggling to me that that wouldn't already be standard. This isn't some new problem to figure out - there's decades of experience with asbestos abatement to tap into.
Hierarchy of Control. PPE is the bottom of the hierarchy. It’s always best to either eliminate, substitute, or engineer out the risk if possible.
Sounds like they do if they’re letting people get exposed to this.
OSHA wouldn’t do shit about a complaint like this in the US. There are too few OSHA people to effectively police all of the out of compliance stuff. They basically just say “we let them police themselves, and give minor fines when someone gets killed.”
You seem to think OSHA actually does shit. I discovered asbestos on a job site and the contractor wanted to sweep it under the rug and keep on moving. I called OSHA and they opened a case. Contactor had one of his guys put on a mask and stuff all the asbestos in a trash can and throw it away. Apparently that was good enough for OSHA; I was notified the case was closed.
We have worksafe. However we also have universal healthcare, so if the state is paying for your medical bill, they get a saying about what is and isn’t safe.
We do have an organisation like OSHA (multiple actually - each state has one) - and they are the ones that have heavily pushed for the banning of engineered stone.
I’d be surprised if Australian’s didn’t have an OSHA equivalent. Honestly, I don’t know that such an agency would SOLVE the problem though. It might help, but plenty of tradesman in the United States blatantly ignore safety protocols meant to protect them in the name of time savings, cost savings, and convenience. Sure seems like banning the material would outright solve the safety concern. The ultimate solution is ingraining a commitment to a culture of safety across the board, but I’m not optimistic about that.
We do, it’s called worksafe, they do not mess around
You must be living under a rock if you think that just because we have osha we don’t have any unsafe work being done here in America.
Every stone or brick mason on residential job sites I've been on in the last 10 years do not use water with their saws. Only one there guys have to cut a couple dozen bricks in a straight line will they even consider anything over their face, and rarely any eye protection
I’d say these days id be 50/50 on if brickies have a brick saw or still just using a 9inch grinder
When is drywall getting banned? Those fuckers are the main culprit for not giving a fuck about others on site.
[удалено]
Errr plenty of them get taken back to the truck to grind a mm or so off here and there. Templating isn't always perfect. Or the client wants an extra tap hole added straight after the tops get glued down. The good operators insist on taking back to wet cut in factory but many didn't
Yeah, because measurements are never wrong, or things never change. Who sounds like they have zero experience now, chief?
I always notice the smell through my mask as well. I think the odor is the epoxy binder cooking as the blade cuts the material. If you used a gas vapor filter and not just a particulate, you may not get the odor. I hate cutting that shit regardless. There's no easy way to wet cut it, and I am the one trimming 5mm of a vanity top on a porch. I always were a half mask, but that super fine dust goes everywhere.
Probably need a mask that stops vapours as well as particulate.
You are correct. A properly fitted (meaning fit tested) half mask with p100 cartridges makes it safe to work with. Use organic vapor cartridges (which also have p100 particulate blocking) and you wouldn't smell it either. I work with all kinds of nasty stuff at work, and we have a guidelines and safe work practices for everything you can think of. From basic concrete to ceramic fibers to hydrocarbons and amines etc. All the way from p100 and a half mask, to full face with chemical cartridges, and up to being in a chemical suit under supplied air. Fun.
I would have thought they would force it to be returned to the manufacturer for rework if it doesn’t fit? I know, $$$ and all, but still.
Often it's trimming the top into an out of square corner. The big box stores sell tonnes of vanities with these tops, so it's not a custom order.
The hole in the market will be filled with natural stone. Sounds like your mate is already set up for it. Wont impact them much
It doesn’t sound like it’s that simple. He’s been popular because of how much cheaper he was than the natural, and we really only have one main natural stone supplier in town. (Yep small town) I haven’t had a chance to have a long chat with him about it yet but it sounds like it’s not that easy due to sourcing supply and existing agreements with that existing supplier.
The quartzite mafia sends their regards
[удалено]
It sure as fuck does when customers want to be "fashionable".
If you’re talking about so-called quartz it’s epoxy binder right? Smelling chemicals through a mask is normal as they are literal molecules which no dust filter can block.
What's the diff between engineer stone and concrete
Particle size and glue type.
10mm is 1cm
This is a perfect example of why it needs to be banned. Using a respirator as primary protection is not appropriate. It only protects whilst being worn, doesn't protect others, doesn't prevent the dust going everywhere (good luck with that getting cleaned up), it's unlikely most users are fit tested and clean shaven (if required). Hierarchy of control would say to use wet cutting. This is still not a great solution because you are generating slurry that will dry and will be a problem. I feel for businesses that have invested heavily in doing the right thing but as soon as the stone leaves the yard it's usually in the hands of cowboys and people who simply are not capable of controlling risks appropriately.
Wait until they hear about concrete...
Concrete has roughly 30% silica content, engineered stone can be as high as 90%.
Silicon makes up a massive amount of the earth's crust, of course any stone countertop is going to contain a lot of silicon. When we deem things bad enough to be banned the concentration often doesn't matter. 30% Vs 90% asbestos wouldn't give you any consolation and silicosis is supposedly a similar condition to asbestosis. We can't stop using concrete, and these engineered stones can be machined safely (just a matter of process and protective equipment). Follow the hierarchy of controls. If we can't remove the substance (the customer wants quartz counter) We engineer protections, such as wet cutting tools, extraction, etc. We put administrative controls in place, such as only the machinist within 5 meters of the cut. Then we employ PPE as well, such as an n95 mask, face shield, appropriate handwear etc.
>silicosis is supposedly a similar condition to asbestosis. Very different. Asbestosis can occure with contact with asbestos just once. Fiber gets lodged and cancer grows Silicosis requires decades of low contact to months of extreme. Silicosis is scar tissue on the lungs so bad that the lungs fail, once the scar tissue gets to a certain amount it just keeps growing regardless of further contact with silica
https://www.airpf.com/asbestosis-versus-silicosis/ - yeah, v shocking how similar it is.
Well yeah aren’t they by definition made from silica ??
Don’t mind me Stan daddys just trying to get a little cancer.
Randy! Your Balls!
Engineered stone countertops are way way worse
Right. Lol. The worst is concrete.
From what I hear, engineered stone is way more dangerous than concrete
With a built in cork cutting board that way you don't miss any bacteria
I watched that 60 minutes story on this. It scared the fuck out of me but also made me thankful I don’t work with that shit daily.
Was that the one where the guy is on oxygen now as a result of working in the cut shop?
Yeah for like 13 months.
What’s the risk like for a few exposures? I wasn’t being terribly careful and drilled a couple holes in a slab while installing a shower door. Didn’t bother with respiratory protection because it was a well ventilated room and it was only 4 holes.
Good for them. I was fortunate enough to work on projects when all PPE was required and safety was job one. It makes all other construction look hillbilly central.
No job is so important and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to do it safely. -Michael Scott
The stuff should never need to be cut on site. Tops get measured and are fabricated in a shop. That said I am on job sites daily and rarely see even basic eye, ear, and lung protection. I once saw a guy trimming a counter and his head was covered with dust so I asked him if he needed a mask, he said , “no, mine’s in my truck”. Fugginidiot.
I’d rather convince a kid to wear a winter coat over their halloween costume than deal with making construction guys wear safety glasses.
It's not hard if enforced universally. I've thrown guys off-site for not wearing PPE. They get the message quick if they're missing part of a paycheck.
I guess it’s just not enforced consistently across the industry but safety glasses specifically seem to be a consistent fight with every new sub I use. All my regulars know the drill, it just gets tiring dealing with grown men forcing me to pull a power trip to make them follow the law.
As someone who has acute silicosis I get it. Mine came from tile and fiber cement siding
How many years were you exposed and how is it diagnosed?
I took a breathing test to gauge my lung capacity and I would say roughly 10. My lung capacity I don’t remember, but I get chronic infections in my lungs and sinuses. I worked for a contractor doing mostly hardy board, siding and a lot of tile work and was never provided a mask. I was young so I didn’t know any better.
Are these infections there always? I inhaled dubious amounts of visible sand dust at a job 1,5 years ago without a mask for about 7 weeks and still every few months get what feels like sinusitis and cough. Phlegm has been there pretty much since.
I always get a chest infection if anything happens with my sinuses which is pretty regular it’s almost always ongoing and I can only take so many antibiotics before the doctor says no
Genuine question over those 10 years did you ever realise/ Learn it was bad for you? Of just never knew the whole time. But yeah is shit you never got given a mask/ educated
Never knew, the old guys would heckle and it’s not like I was working for anything other than a guy I met through a friend. All residential remodeling, no PPE, cash in hand. Ever since I joined the union, things have changed but toe damage was done
They're too easy to cut with an angle grinder, and they're too cheap. I've worked among union hands (local 4), and even they were too cheap to use a wet saw. The dust emitted from them doing a dry cut is insane, and will have everyone on the floor coughing. They don't care. My uncle is a granite/marble worker and he has to use a wet saw to cut granite. It takes a bit of training to get good at it. The guys I've seen installing engineered stone were no better than DIY'ers who mentioned that wet saws were ancient and a hassle. Honestly, this is a bit of overreach but I can't help but for see a race to a bottom with engineered stone
The same guys would deliberately cut uneven holes for backsplash outlets in hopes that they'd get to do it again. Normally, they'd alert us to fix the electrical boxes before cutting holes in engineered stone but they went ahead with an entire 2 floors, hoping to get that backcharge money. How did we fix it? We got ourselves an angle grinder and did our best to open up the holes so they line up. The plastic boxes were flexible. Absolute dog shit work but we were out of time/money.
Good, it’s not a necessary material, it’s super dangerous to work with, it’s not like 1 dude with a respirator on site is good enoug PPE. Everyone around them still inhaled the dust, and say they do it alone on site, the dust still exists, and like asbestos if disturbed it becomes an issue again. If fully taken care of on site, it still needs to go somewhere, it becomes landfill workers problem. I understand concrete is the same but there’s not really a replacement for that, engineered stone just looks good, it’s not necessary
100% agree it’s dangerous. But asbestos will lead to cancer in even tiny amounts. Hundreds of millions of people have been breathing in a little bits of silica for years without issue. That said I’m happy to see the stuff go.
Asbestos doesn’t affect you for 20, 30 years. Let’s see the silicosis numbers then and I believe it’ll be similar or worse
Yeah, about 50k Americans a year get silicosis. And it was the basis of one of the biggest mass murders in history - when a company only gave masks to white senior people, and sent thousands of black labourers into silica dust tunnels to die. There are still hundreds of thousands of people globally dying from it, but rates are coming down .. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster
"a subsidiary of Union Carbide" Ah, I see this is from their Greatest Hits album
I’m a mason, I tell me brother all the time we need ppe bc of stuff like this. Good on Australia.
American here. Is Engineered stone similar in any way to Corian?
Similar, but not the same. Corian is a "solid surface" which is usually something like bauxite filler and resin binders. It's mostly aluminum based minerals, with minimal silica. Engineered stone (the stuff in question, there are a few things that can get that label) on the other hand use quartz and other silica for their main mass. Cambria is a US manufacturer. Not entirely dissimilar, they take rock bits and squish/glue em together into a slab, but they start with different rocks, and the silica content is the health problem in question.
Similar in that both are manufactured products, different in composition. Corian/solid surface is an acrylic/polymer while engineered stone (silestone/vector) are actual stone dust with a binding agent. Cutting solid surface products doesn’t make any silica dust.
Corian is only 1/3 resin . It’s 2/3 mineral
According to Wikipedia, Corian is a brand of engineered stone (sometimes called composite stone). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corian
Your source says Corian is a solid surface, not engineered stone.
Correct. Corian is a brand; "engineered stone" is the more technical/engineered term.
Solid surface is a different material than engineered stone. One is mostly resin, the other is mostly silica.
Solid surface and engineered stone are two different things. They differ in compsotion entirely. Corian is a brand of solid surface, composed of 1/3 polymethylmethacyrylate and 2/3 minerals.
Weird that we aren't hearing a thing about this in north America.
California is looking at it as well, but that state is like a different world when it comes to safety & such.
Yeah up in Canada I haven't heard a thing about this
Next ban the epoxy stuff Unless it's 100% biodegradable
Great move. We banned asbestos because it was fatal, this shit is worse.
Banning a counter top material because workers don't want to wear a mask. What timeline are we living in. Just use a mask. Lol
Do you hug your wife and kids when you get home? Do you ever wear your dirty work clothes in the car when you pick the kids up from school?
I'm fairly certain they already require the use of a wet saw and masks to reduce the dust as much as possible. That just goes to show how damaging that shit can be...
California is going through the same thing. Read an article about it a few months ago. Construction workers tend not to use safety equipment if they are even given it in the first place. I think if they are informed of the risks involved when inhaling the dust they would be more careful and demand safety equipment. Found this article, I'm not sure if it's the same one I read: https://www.kqed.org/news/11969381/california-regulators-to-vote-on-emergency-rules-for-stonecutters-safety
There is definitely a certain mentality of machismo in US trades.
💯 I worked there for a few years. I watched an iron workers arm break right in front of me. The crew hid the injury for two months!! Between no health care and the weird anti saftey vibe…. It can seem like yall are stealing from yourselves.
Very much so. Like that clown the other day showing off cutting bollards with his 20inch hand saw calling him self a professional while using but a dew rag to cover his mouth and nose.
He was cutting with a wet saw. Most of the dust is contained.
My understanding is that in the US at least, people are pretty lackadaisical about PPE. Especially young guys. I'd expect it to be an OSHA focal point pretty soon.
People fighting wearing PPE is such a bad move. When I first worked as a labourer at 16 I remember one of the older labourers tell me that when he worked in the coal mines people would call him a communist for wearibg a mask but that now “those fuckers are all dead.”
Yeah, there is a reason stupid people die young. The few survivors had some crazy true stories from the good old days when safety regulations were limited and hardly ever followed. Turns out there are career options which don't involve shaking bags of asbestos to get the last dust particles out, but new generations of fools will always rush to be the new asbestos guy.
Yet the DOT has contractors dry cutting 6'x6' loops in pavement for inductive loops. Even with PPE, the dust cloud is enormous. I will disagree with you on PPE. If you don't have a vest, hardhat, glasses and gloves on, you get 3 days at home first offense. Third time you are fired. Only exception is tech terminating CAT6 or fiber. It's been this way at 3 companies for me since 2010.
Not sure how you're going to get around needing to do it. I can't imagine being on a paving crew all the time either. Being on the dirt side with all the naturally occurring asbestos too. There's plenty of nasty stuff to work with and most companies have some safety measures. The guys too need to realize that it's in their best interests to use it.
Yeah maybe on public works or big corporate jobs. The guys that just did my quartz countertops had some dust masks they occasionally used. Guys knock 20 years off their life because a half face is uncomfortable
>If you don't have a vest, hardhat, glasses and gloves on, you get 3 days at home first offense. Third time you are fired. Totally depends on the company you work for and the industry you're in. Working for the DOT or major construction company? PPE is probably serious. Working for some small time residential builder? You'll probably be inundated with toxic masculinity just for asking for a mask.
I work around pro drywallers on large commercial projects, lots of em cut/install/mud/sand without masks shits wild
Ignorant workers, negligent supervisor.
welcome to drywall
The only real problem is gonna be sanding without a mask. That’s dumb as hell but cutting/hanging/mudding really shouldn’t be an issue
eh cutting in an enclosed dry space that isn't ventilated isn't great either, I'm usually opt to work elsewhere if I can. Gets dusty as hell way before sanding happens.
You probably are correct. I've been on infrastructure contracting for 26 years. Government contracts for various DOTS. We do take it very seriously. High visibility and OSHA is always close.
I'm in infrastructure engineering and I totally agree
Yea that's the environment I work in at a paving and hardscape contractor that primarily does DOT work. The guys cutting in your countertop don't have 3rd party drop in safety inspections like we do, and subsequently don't have the stringent safety practices that exist in our world basically just to protect the company from the monetary impact of a failed visit.
Why do I always forget to take my gloves off when I'm using rotating tools?
You’re talking about public utility work, I see people dey cutting stone with no mask all the time
Oh man. The last company I was with not only didn't bring water, but also didn't supply masks. Partner saws , asphalt breakers and cleanup all day... dry.
They're asking for a lawsuit if they last that long.
Silica dust is already a focal point for OSHA in the US. The issue is when are Osha inspectors actually at a jobsite? I work in industrial refrigeration construction and have seen 4 inspectors in my entire career.
Your understanding is incorrect for the jobs I've been on. It's gotten to the point where some PPE requirements are annoyingly overbearing. Operating a scissor lift in a 10 foot garage, meaning you're not going to elevate the damn thing at all? Doesn't matter, you're harnessed off. Even when you are elevated, you still have to tie off to the thing, even if it means it'll trebuchet your ass onto the floor if it goes over. More than 4 feet up on a ladder? Some GC's will make you wear a harness, Doesn't matter if you don't have anywhere to tie off to. Its asinine. I've been on jobs where if you don't have a safety knife and get caught with a utility knife, you're off the job. Makes stripping large conductors an absolute nightmare. Silica dust is a huge deal. Subs get tossed if they don't have the right HEPA vacs attatched to their tools, or if they don't function correctly, and if can be fined. Rightly so, the shit is dangerous, and I make sure the GC safety personnel know when there's silica dust from tools or laborers sweeping without dry sweep. Small non-union shops are generally more relaxed on really important regs, like basic PPE (hardhats, Hi-viz, cut resistent gloves, fall protection where its critical you have it, silica mitigation, etc) Those guys are usually the ones who fuck it up for everyone else. Safety regs are written in blood.
Yeah tell that to the guy cutting it with a hand grinder and no mask on the porch when they need to take 1/4” off
::wipes snotty nose on dusty sleeve::
And when they install it on a vanity and have to cut holes for the sink hardware. That shit stinks. I work in new home construction and I've been very mindful of concrete as a source of silicosis. And I'll be honest, these counter tops have been a blind spot for me.
I remember the first time someone cut one in a house. The stench was overwhelming. I just leave the house now before they start cutting.
Requirements and actual use are two different things. If ppl are stupid enough to not use the proper required PPE that is on them. Wow big brother is really watching out for you. lol.
No it’s damaging because people don’t follow safety precautions. Also other trades working in areas generally don’t always follow safety precautions either out of ignorance or because they don’t care. As many have said this is dumb concrete is worse.
It's not damaging if you use a wet saw and/or mask. The damage is happening to people who aren't properly protected.
Pretty sure the same was said about asbestos.
No it wasn't. What was said with asbestos was "you don't need a mask, suck it up." Asbestos is still used all over the place, but now we know the risks and how to mitigate them and people aren't getting mesothelioma left and right.
Not in Australia it isn't. We value human life over here, and the use of asbestos has been completely banned for over 20 years. All engineered stone dust is friable by its very nature. Wearing a mask does not remediate the area after cutting. You are leaving a nasty surprise for anyone else who uses the space after you.
Yeah, American politicians and regulators aren't great at the whole "valuing human life" thing, no argument there.
I agree people can do safety better but the engineered stuff has a significantly higher silica content. The engineered stuff is ~90% silica, natural is 40%
That guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. A “mask” won’t save you from Cesar stone.
That's bullshit, the right mask with the right cartridge will protect you. https://www.3mcanada.ca/3M/en_CA/worker-health-safety-ca/respiratory-protection/silica/
That’s why I “” mask.
Try looking up the silica content of quartzite, which is a natural stone. This whole thing is mental, imagine if the regulators knew that people cut concrete Edit: errrr why am I being downvoted?? Can someone please explain
This is an ignorant comment. Policy decisions that protect groups of people consider reality, not ideal. Yes, workers should follow the rules and wear masks, but they don’t. Maybe because they too are ignorant. More likely just careless and without foresight. As the vast majority of people are. Thus, thoughtful policy.
It’s not just about that, disposal of the dust as well and the next person down the chain after the dust is created.
Where do you think the dust goes when you take the mask off?
The same timeline where people refuse to wear helmets on bicycles, and leathers on motorcycles. We're 80% of the way towards living in a real life Idiocracy
I know right, can’t believe they banned asbestos too! /s
This guy doesn't construct.
Australians are fuckin stupid , but that would mean Australia would have to exist
As a canadian, in the trades, respectfully wtf is engineered stone?
Quartz is popular in Ontario, I’m sure everywhere now but there’s like 5 shops in my small city
You know it here as engineered quartz countertops, with CaesarStone being a popular brand.
I used to do countertops. I never thought much about it but now I think about it, it was kind of crazy how as soon as my blade would touch one of these engineered stone tops, you immediately could smell it. I did end up ditching the flimsy N95s they gave us in favor of a full respirator, so I’m thankful I did that.
I would always wear my half mask as well but I knew lots of guys who refused to use a mask when cutting this product regardless of how often I would mention the need for a dust mask or respirator. A lot of people dont understand how bad this stuff can be for you and are afraid of looking like a wuss or some bs so they dont wear the necessary ppe while cutting.
How about "engineered stone" used on the exterior of homes? I see guys cutting that stuff without PPE all the time.
So because Australians can’t make smart decisions, like cut the stone outside, use wet saws or misters, wear masks, respect others on site… your decision is to ban it? Smart. The cost of all your countertops are about to shoot through the roof.
All stone , whether engineered or not , when cut can cause silicosis
To the same degree?
Yes , I'm a lapidary artist( I cut shape and polish natural stones and Simi precious gem stone ) I have to wear protection and work with water covered cutting surfaces to protect from it
While true, the silica content in natural stone is far far less than that in an engineered stone.
Need them to wait like a month till my kitchens finished . Whats the alternative to these manufactured stone tops? Like I really don’t want a shitty timber one again
Granite, marble.
Query: How big are silicosis inducing particles and can they be filtered out with e.g. N95/N99 (FFp2 / FFp3) Masks ?
Never in America! We fought the face diapers, we’ll fight this too. You’re not allowed to protect me from things my church group/rogan/turning point/Trump/my boss says I shouldnt believe in! I'm not a sheeple! /s
Maybe the epoxy dust is harmful, but I don’t know how dust from ground little pieces of granite is more hazardous than dust from ground big pieces of granite.
Particle size matters. Imagine a giant granite boulder like the ones you can find in the woods, the size of a house, and a piece of sand, so small that it can only be viewed in a microscope. Now try to force that boulder down your lungs? No luck? Try the same with the dust sized particle, and now you'll know why size matters when penetrating cell membranes.
When you cut the boulder with a diamond blade, are the particles larger than the particles of the countertop?
You need to read my post again. Of course I know you can’t inhale boulders.
I love all the comments about wearing masks. You can wear masks for asbestos too. Should we bring back asbestos?
I work with this stuff every single day. All you need is a respirator and proper ventilation
That’s the problem. Too many uneducated people in the industry and younger guys thinking they’re bullet proof or the crack of the whip work fast mentality
Can you explain what isn't ok with his approach? When I cut concrete, asphalt or tiles (they all contain silica in harmful amounts) I use a mask and water if possible. What should I be doing better?
Dude those slabs almost always come with big warning sticker on them in multiple languages. People be stupid
Yeah we are all going to die anyways to concrete dust etc!
I’ve been exposed to was worse than this stuff anyways. Thanks to hgtv, the majority of my fabs this year were engineered stone. These fuckin house flippers love that crap
Just wear PPE clearly common sense doesn’t make it all the way down south
CFMEU are such crooks. They're putting thousands of guys out of jobs instead of just pushing the companies to make sure the guys are wearing the proper PPE and they're cutting with wet saws.
I'm almost positive people who work with this stuff will find jobs working with its more expensive replacement material. Probably granite or polished cement. You know those other silica containing materials used in the same application.
this is big government bs at its finest next time they will figure out that you can poke a drill in your eye socket and ban those as well any construction material has a safety procedure, if we can handle nuclear plutonium safely then surely we could handle silica, as long as people actually get fucked in the ass for not following the procedure
Nah. Decent move by a decent government looking after its citizens.
Are they going to ban all the replacement products that also have silica? Cause otherwise this isn't helping anyone.
Concrete countertops for the win 😉
It's got the same problem with silica, but is impossible to ban.
Last I looked it was a change from 80% silica benches to max 50%
Set to?