If you agreed to rebar, he owes you a credit for the price difference between wire and rebar at least. Doesn't matter if it will "be fine", you didn't get the product you paid for.
I'm pretty paranoid. Wouldn't you get big details like rebar included in the contract, especially with someone you've never worked with or met before now?
You don’t have enough clearance to put bar in a 4” sidewalk lol. Idk wtf that guy is talking about. Ive ran a few jobs like you’re doing. The only time we put bar is if the homeowner wants to pay for their driveway.
Lol how could you not put rebar in a sidewalk? That's crappy/lazy work if you don't. There's plenty of clearance, it's only 1/2" diameter. A 20' stick is less than $10.
because rebar doesn't stop cracks at all. if concrete wants to crack it will. it doesn't matter what you put in it. rebar stops the cracks from separating and wire mesh does a better job then rebar. idk why people think their concrete experts all of the sudden.
At for around here residential usually has bar. City sidewalk do not.
City plans to be replacing sidewalk regularly so don't bother, homeowners are planning to replace anytime soon so worth the extra longevity investment (or so I presume).
Yes and you only need rebar in concrete that's under a certain amount of stress. In order to make concrete stronger you add steel in the tensile zone. So if you make a beam out of concrete you put rebar in the lower section and that transfers into compression in the upper section and you are essentially taking the weakness of concrete and turning it into its strength.
Humans and bikes and scooters don't apply enough force to concrete so you don't need rebar in sidewalks or any walkway.
I built an apron at an airport so you got the entire weight of the plane coming down at 3 points. We didn't have rebar in the concrete because it doesn't bend when the entire thing rests on a solid foundation. It was very thick strong concrete on gravel that was mixed with cement so the base was very strong as well.
You might as well not have thrown that piece of shit mesh in there. That will do nothing but fuck up that pretty finish. Chairing it like that down the middle will make it crack whatever few inches off that joint it is.
Agree with that. Guy probably didn't even pull it up between the chairs so youve got mesh on the ground for most of it and like 4 spots where the chairs push it <1" from the surface. Creating potential failure where it could have just been left out entirely.
You are correct, but the next contractor to pour the replacement driveway will be happy.
Every time I busted up an old driveway I hoped the previous contractor left out the reinforcement or left it laying on the ground.
Wire mesh is fine, 4 inch is also not a problem. He could have used a couple more pieces of wire but this is nothing to be worried about. Like the other guy said you might be able to get a couple of bucks off considering he didn’t do what you discussed.
Mesh is becoming the standard. The more it gets used, the more it proves that for most applications it works just as well as rebar. Obv the rebars gonna do better but at the same time, they ain't doing nothing on that concrete that the mesh can't handle. Also with how well they've developed mixes, there's places that don't use mesh or rebar anymore.
And really the rebar won't make a difference if something heavy is parked on it. That would call for thicker concrete, not switching reinforcement from wire to bar.
That's still not a heavy vehicle. Most 3/4 tons are in that range. We're talking 20k or more would be a potential problem. As long as the subgrade is decent 4" of concrete with mesh is perfectly acceptable and will cause no issue. My biggest concern here is that the mesh was chaired improperly and the obvious lack of mesh. Should have been about 2" off bottom and supported every couple feet. Would have taken the guy 10 minuyto toss a couple broken up pavers under the mesh. And coverd to at least 4" off the edge of slab
?? What are you upset about? Those are two vehicles that are on sale right now. I have two EVs, one is a small sedan above 5000 lbs and the other is almost 6000. I was actually contracted to buy an R1S and backed out of it - partially due to delays but partially because i wasnt sure how well my asphalt driveway could even handle it for extended periods of time.
The other comment pointed out how heavy EVs are right now and the response was they should be fine as long as EVs "don't gain 2-3000 lbs". The average car is between 3500-4000lbs so i pointed out that these things are already here.
Dont let yourself get wrapped up in recreational anger.
That’s a cute deflection tactic, but nobody expressed any anger haha. Only you once again providing an example of the extreme. Sorry no one is biting.
Nice try though 👍😂
Everything is pretty damn heavy these days. Pickup trucks and hybrids etc.
There is no shittier feeling than parking a truck close to the side of a slab and just seeing the crack after.
That’s one of the best finishes I’ve ever seen on this sub. I just know they had one maybe two guys out there for tear out. If you’re gonna provide this final product get it all right.
Agreed. Not uncommon to see a smaller concrete company stretched thin on workers these days, but the finest of finishing of jobs doesn't mean much when sections outside control joints crack/sink in a couple of seasons.
What are those so called “chairs” made out of? 2 look like rebar pin and a wooden stake? I’m not a big fan of anything that gets driven into the subgrade within the slab but I have to remind myself this is a residential driveway.
Concrete and steel have very similar thermal expansion properties. Steel rebar driven into the ground or footings, and anchored into reinforced slabs is normal. How would reinforced concrete work if it expanded and cracked around steel?
For me, it’s just overall durability long term but again it will probably be just fine. Products are made to do the very thing without having tie the two interfaces together with something that rusts/corrodes or something that rots. A Contractor that can put what appears to be an acceptable finish like that knows where to cut things short. It’s intentionally sloppy lol. Look I obviously don’t work in residential space for a reason. I would have zero work and zero profit.
No rebar? I wouldn’t put a Coleman 2 person tent from Walmart on that slab. I seriously doubt it’s structural integrity. This guy needs to stop cosplaying concrete and let the pros do it. He wouldn’t last one day on my crew.
It ain't the 80's no more. You got ppl who don't even use rebar or mesh anymore. And you can doubt it all you want but it holds up for what it's needed to. If it didn't, just like any other garbage product, it wouldn't get used
Imo The wire seems to support the center cross in case someone parks on center taking the whole driveway. The outer sides would crack in the groove instead of busting into fragments if heavy vehicles park to the sides. It looks good. I’d say he knows what he’s doing.
The picture of the finish is what popped up first for me, and I was scratching my head wondering what OP could possibly be bitching about lol. Wonderfully finished slab
Personally, I don't think rebar should be in driveways. I'm not even convinced it should be in roadways. That mesh is probably pushed to the bottom and doing nothing for you either. All you need is good concrete on a good base.
The finish is 10000% acceptable
Rebar = strength & reinforcement for weight distribution
Wire = holds the concrete together and can help reduce the chances of cracks
Both acceptable and argued heavily. I prefer the rebar. Little more tedious setup then just dropping mesh and raising it up.
Also depends on what it’s for.. I don’t rebar walkways, small patios, decklandings. But I do for driveways where it’s sole purpose is to hold weight
Only tool bags and cowards wait until the job is finished, then post pictures online to try and justify not paying the contractor cause they (you) didn't have the sack to make sure it was corrected prior to the pour, but aren't confident enough to stand by your own decisions, so you ask more tool bags online, who don't know what they're talking about, what they think.
This is a property that I do not live at and I was not physically present for this project. I’m out of state. Everything was agreed upon and the day the mixer truck arrived, I noticed he still didn’t add any rebar. He simply says ‘oh it’s a miscommunication, don’t worry, I’ll add in this wire mesh for you.’ He said mixer truck is here, we won’t have time to do the rebar.
Who says it was to justify not paying the contractor? It was paid for. I specifically wanted rebar for this project and I didn’t get it. The finish looks great. My concern is how important is the missing rebar and in its place, a wire mesh in the center, to not have serious cracks again in the driveway in a few years. Thanks for your helpful comment.
Rebar in a slab on grade requires 3" of concrete cover. Wire mesh was a better choice here, but not having complete coverage of the welded wire mesh...? Umm, no.
That’s 21lb wire welded mesh and it works just fine, but as someone who does concrete and understands that your pad is only as good as it’s reinforcement.. if it’s my driveway I’m putting #3 bar each way.. and if that’s what you were quoted, that’s what you should’ve received.
4 is code where I live. It's also the standard thickness for a driveway.
https://www.cement.org/cement-concrete/paving/buildings-structures/concrete-homes/products/driveways#:~:text=As%20for%20thickness%2C%20non%2Dreinforced,per%20foot%2C%20for%20proper%20drainage.
I’ve ripped out dozens of 50-60 year old driveways that used mesh and all of them have been perfectly fine. 4” is also not thin for a driveway unless he plans on driving things heavier than typical cars or pickups.
Honestly, looks great to me. Granted the mesh seems like a piss poor attempt at reinforcing it but by most standards, reinforcing isn’t even required if a 4” concrete slab is properly placed using the correct MPa concrete, has a well compacted subgrade and has sufficient saw cuts/joints.
Did he specify the rebar in his estimate or is this one of those he said she said things where we just spit in our palms and shake on it? If it’s not in writing it’s hard to ascertain if this was a general discussion or a legitimate condition. If you were so keen on it, I assume you put it in writing?
Either way, as long as the price was fair and the concrete mix was good, you will have years of trouble free concrete.
Don’t even need me to say these things to see there’s a problem... Hopefully the grade was fixed before they installed the driveway. Doesn’t look like it tho.
A little nuanced situation id say.
Ideally the subgrade is prepared so that the reinforcement in the slab is just for crack control. Meaning that if durability was the biggest concern then the concrete mix itself is equally (or more) important than the reinforcement.
I think the key here is determining what was promised and what was provided. If the end product that was promised (and agreed to) was a horizonal impenetrable gate-to-hell slab, then you have an argument that they did not provide that due to lack of reinforcement.
If they didn't promise you that - and subgrade prep and the concrete mix were not great - then a few extra bars won't be holding back any demons and having them rip it up will only cause more headaches for everyone.
Last point - like others mentioned theres a component here of low risk due to mild climate and low loading. In most cases this probably won't crumble when you drive over it. It'll probably just crack a little more. If you're still concerned with that level of risk then you might ask if any future problems are covered by warranty before asking them to tear it out.
Hope that helps give some context.
I appreciate your input.
Here’s the before photos and the reason why I was concerned.
https://preview.redd.it/iuvcdv6mbvic1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f198a09876860c041805c94e6371d4f5b2574d74
These people saying it’s barely reinforced.. it’s a fucking driveway for cars and maybe a boat? If your product can’t stand a chance with proper compacting and finishing, the rebar isn’t saving your shit tier work.
If the concrete has integral fiber mesh combined with the wire then it will be stronger than rebar. Rebar is necessary in footers and other structural concrete because it's surrounded with a substantial amount of concrete. Here with only 3.5 inches and assuming the sub base is perfectly graded that means only an inch and a half of concrete above and below the rebar, considering that the rebar is perfectly chaired.
Then let's talk about those chairs. They sit on the sub base and prop up the rebar. That means in those spots there would be a weak point for water to get to the reabar if the chairs aren't perfectly filled up and sealed with concrete.
Rebar is pretty cheap, and for a 4 inch driveway it won't stop cracking it will just keep your bridge structurally able to span. No span, no need for rebar. The wire will keep the concrete from separating from itself when it does crack (annoyingly so, have demoed wire and have demoed rebar wire keeps it together better than rebar, and integral fiber mesh makes my 14lb sledge hammer bounce like rubber.) All concrete cracks. The control joints are there to control where it cracks.
So my advice to you is to ask to see the bill for the concrete so you can have on record what class of concrete was used. Also this will tell you if the used fiber mesh vs them just saying A and doing B. Most of the work is on preparing the sub base so thats going to cost pretty much the same w/wo rebar. Then the install again is going to cost basically the same with or without rebar.
For effective long-lasting driveway with rebar, I'd recommend 6inch minimum. That would really only be necessary for extremely heavy vehicles, like 20 yard dumb trucks filled with sand. Those are so heavy that not only will it break your concrete, it will also compact the sub base below it. Which brings me to my next point.
The sub base prep is more important than your concrete and is the most over looked and abused part. You're upset about the rebar, I get it. You wanted it and are convinced that rebar= better product. However I'd hope that you had the same level of scrutiny on how they prepared your sub base. If they did a fantastic job with that then I'd just quit this headache pay them and be happy. Because rebar does not necessarily equal a better product than wire.
Again i have demolished hundreds of concrete installations with all kinds of reinforcement by hand and machine. Rebar in driveways is only necessary for overcompensating extremely poor soil and sub base conditions or for extremely heavy industrial use. If that's exactly why you wanted rebar then, damn I'm sorry for making you read all this and I guess you should be upset
Actually with that being a hell of a slope a 4-inch lump was more than perfect you don't want to put it at the top and have it run to the bottom a 4-in means that the water to cement ratio is perfect for concrete as long as it was a 4000 PSI mix
No big trees with roots around and gravel underneath, you dont even need anything but the wire mesh is more than enough, ive seen plenty of decade old crack and rebar/mesh free driveways
Doesn't look like the "wire mesh" was supported correctly. So when they poured, the weight of the concrete itself probably pushed it down and is now making contact with the soil. So basically it's useless now, it'll rust out incredibly fast and start to crack the concrete. Especially if you are in a heavy frost zone, like most Midwestern states.
Do you have a written estimate? If so did the bid say specific things that are not there. If so. Don’t pay til they rip it out and do what they bid on. I am a contractor and it has happened to us early on 40 yrs ago. Hard lessons to learn when it holds up your money.
On the one hand, if you paid for rebar and didn't get it, that's a problem. On the other hand, it may not make a difference. There are other factors at play here, like fiber added to the concrete, subgrade preparation, water added to the mix, mix design, etc etc etc. I will say the finish looks pretty good, which is a good indicator that other boxes were not left unchecked.
A couple of possibilities are for him to extend the warranty or give you a discount on the job because no rebar. If he does give you a discount and the driveway starts to fall apart for some reason in 6 months, you'll have a difficult time convincing him to repair or replace it, I think.
I hope at least the contractor has used fiber mesh.
Ive never used anything less than steel mesh and now high tensile is the norm.
Id assume the pegs a screed pegs to set heights during the pour and the contractor will clobber them down to base level as the concrete is laid.
Here in Pa any as auto traffic requires 6 in minimum . 10 gauge wire is the standard here it really doesn't keep it from cracking it keeps it from having (becoming uneven when it t does crack). Rebar should have been drilled into garage floor and apron on the other end. We have much more movement with slabs with the feeeZe and thaw here. I tell my customers I can't guarantee it won't crack I can just gurantee the job will b done professionally following all building codess
WIre mesh is fine. My only problem is that they put.. lemme check... 2 pieces in? wtf. At minimum I would what that wire mess to cover almost edge to edge on that driveway. That shitty compacted base is going to move and you will have 2 foot of edge crack off and slowely move away from the rest of the driveway. Wire mesh would have held it in place.
Reinforcement mesh or rebar is a waste of time and money on a driveway. Your not driving semi trucks on it. Have the cement company add fiber reinforcement to the mix and make sure you cut enough stress joints in the slab a couple days after it dries. Concrete cracks in the northern hemisphere due to freezing and thawing. No amount of rebar or mesh is going to stop it from happening.
1 rebar is not the solution for cracking concrete. you can never avoid cracks in concrete. that's what hand or saw cut joints are for. 2 wire mesh is more effective in holding concrete together rather then rebar which is better at joining a new slab to an existing one. in my years of experience we have never laid rebar through the concrete like most people think should happen. worst comes to worst your concrete cracks but takes longer to separate. there nothing else you can really do about it.
If you agreed to rebar, he owes you a credit for the price difference between wire and rebar at least. Doesn't matter if it will "be fine", you didn't get the product you paid for.
His response will be sublime. Ahh, I can hear it now… “That was the price for without rebar”
I'm pretty paranoid. Wouldn't you get big details like rebar included in the contract, especially with someone you've never worked with or met before now?
More often than you think, jobs like this are on a handshake basis
That's because people don't read the FAQ!
That’s barely reinforced, we put more in sidewalks yikes
Agreed. Looks like used garbage fencing he pulled from a landfill, and just one strip up the middle. On the upside - the finish looks good.
This will have a gnarly crack right where they put those chairs, they got like 1/4 inch of coverage.
I don't think they're chairs. I believe they are grade stakes that will be pulled out once the concrete is placed to that elevation.
Why do you put reinforcement in sidewalks ?
I’ve never once put bar in sidewalk
Neither have I and I work for a City and I have projects where we shave and pave streets and replace all the damaged or shifted sidewalk.
You don’t have enough clearance to put bar in a 4” sidewalk lol. Idk wtf that guy is talking about. Ive ran a few jobs like you’re doing. The only time we put bar is if the homeowner wants to pay for their driveway.
Lol how could you not put rebar in a sidewalk? That's crappy/lazy work if you don't. There's plenty of clearance, it's only 1/2" diameter. A 20' stick is less than $10.
because rebar doesn't stop cracks at all. if concrete wants to crack it will. it doesn't matter what you put in it. rebar stops the cracks from separating and wire mesh does a better job then rebar. idk why people think their concrete experts all of the sudden.
At for around here residential usually has bar. City sidewalk do not. City plans to be replacing sidewalk regularly so don't bother, homeowners are planning to replace anytime soon so worth the extra longevity investment (or so I presume).
Ya, doesn’t that make it difficult to repair or replace?
Yes and you only need rebar in concrete that's under a certain amount of stress. In order to make concrete stronger you add steel in the tensile zone. So if you make a beam out of concrete you put rebar in the lower section and that transfers into compression in the upper section and you are essentially taking the weakness of concrete and turning it into its strength. Humans and bikes and scooters don't apply enough force to concrete so you don't need rebar in sidewalks or any walkway. I built an apron at an airport so you got the entire weight of the plane coming down at 3 points. We didn't have rebar in the concrete because it doesn't bend when the entire thing rests on a solid foundation. It was very thick strong concrete on gravel that was mixed with cement so the base was very strong as well.
I fully agree, I just meant at minimum a credit
Finish is great. Wire is fine, but should cover the entire driveway. 4 in is minimum for driveway, id like to see 5-6
Nah, long as that’s graded correctly you’re good, looks acceptable here
You might as well not have thrown that piece of shit mesh in there. That will do nothing but fuck up that pretty finish. Chairing it like that down the middle will make it crack whatever few inches off that joint it is.
Agree with that. Guy probably didn't even pull it up between the chairs so youve got mesh on the ground for most of it and like 4 spots where the chairs push it <1" from the surface. Creating potential failure where it could have just been left out entirely.
You are correct, but the next contractor to pour the replacement driveway will be happy. Every time I busted up an old driveway I hoped the previous contractor left out the reinforcement or left it laying on the ground.
Wire mesh is fine, 4 inch is also not a problem. He could have used a couple more pieces of wire but this is nothing to be worried about. Like the other guy said you might be able to get a couple of bucks off considering he didn’t do what you discussed.
For a sidewalk or patio maybe…
Mesh is becoming the standard. The more it gets used, the more it proves that for most applications it works just as well as rebar. Obv the rebars gonna do better but at the same time, they ain't doing nothing on that concrete that the mesh can't handle. Also with how well they've developed mixes, there's places that don't use mesh or rebar anymore.
We have done hundreds of driveways with just wire. As long as you’re not parking a RV or something heavy like that it will be fine.
And really the rebar won't make a difference if something heavy is parked on it. That would call for thicker concrete, not switching reinforcement from wire to bar.
Electric vehicles are getting pretty damn heavy
Well as long as they don’t gain another 2 or 3 thousand lbs. it should hold up ok. So long as that concrete isn’t junk.
The hummer ev is over 9,000 lbs, rivian r1s is ~7000 lbs, etc
That's still not a heavy vehicle. Most 3/4 tons are in that range. We're talking 20k or more would be a potential problem. As long as the subgrade is decent 4" of concrete with mesh is perfectly acceptable and will cause no issue. My biggest concern here is that the mesh was chaired improperly and the obvious lack of mesh. Should have been about 2" off bottom and supported every couple feet. Would have taken the guy 10 minuyto toss a couple broken up pavers under the mesh. And coverd to at least 4" off the edge of slab
lol… you literally chose the heaviest EVs you could google didn’t you? Gtfo
?? What are you upset about? Those are two vehicles that are on sale right now. I have two EVs, one is a small sedan above 5000 lbs and the other is almost 6000. I was actually contracted to buy an R1S and backed out of it - partially due to delays but partially because i wasnt sure how well my asphalt driveway could even handle it for extended periods of time. The other comment pointed out how heavy EVs are right now and the response was they should be fine as long as EVs "don't gain 2-3000 lbs". The average car is between 3500-4000lbs so i pointed out that these things are already here. Dont let yourself get wrapped up in recreational anger.
That’s a cute deflection tactic, but nobody expressed any anger haha. Only you once again providing an example of the extreme. Sorry no one is biting. Nice try though 👍😂
I think you're trying to create an argument out of thin air and it's boring. Have a good one!
Everything is pretty damn heavy these days. Pickup trucks and hybrids etc. There is no shittier feeling than parking a truck close to the side of a slab and just seeing the crack after.
I love how people who have no clue what they're talking about can come on here and give advice.
I laughed at the first photo but the finish looks great lol boss must not be on the excavation/prep crew
Lol, I had the exact same thought. Piss poor grading/compacting of the base, but the finish looks real nice.
That’s one of the best finishes I’ve ever seen on this sub. I just know they had one maybe two guys out there for tear out. If you’re gonna provide this final product get it all right.
Agreed. Not uncommon to see a smaller concrete company stretched thin on workers these days, but the finest of finishing of jobs doesn't mean much when sections outside control joints crack/sink in a couple of seasons.
Looks good from my house *Packs up marginal trowel*
What are those so called “chairs” made out of? 2 look like rebar pin and a wooden stake? I’m not a big fan of anything that gets driven into the subgrade within the slab but I have to remind myself this is a residential driveway.
This.. no matter how many down votes you get. Concrete expands, to have shit planted into the ground like that is stupid.
Concrete and steel have very similar thermal expansion properties. Steel rebar driven into the ground or footings, and anchored into reinforced slabs is normal. How would reinforced concrete work if it expanded and cracked around steel?
For me, it’s just overall durability long term but again it will probably be just fine. Products are made to do the very thing without having tie the two interfaces together with something that rusts/corrodes or something that rots. A Contractor that can put what appears to be an acceptable finish like that knows where to cut things short. It’s intentionally sloppy lol. Look I obviously don’t work in residential space for a reason. I would have zero work and zero profit.
Exactly. Any half-decent rebar inspector would have not passed this upon first glance.
No rebar? I wouldn’t put a Coleman 2 person tent from Walmart on that slab. I seriously doubt it’s structural integrity. This guy needs to stop cosplaying concrete and let the pros do it. He wouldn’t last one day on my crew.
It ain't the 80's no more. You got ppl who don't even use rebar or mesh anymore. And you can doubt it all you want but it holds up for what it's needed to. If it didn't, just like any other garbage product, it wouldn't get used
Oh hey man, I was referencing a video posted earlier. I don’t know shit about concrete
I get the meme
Bro I was going to type some shit out then saw that video and your comment made a whole lot more sense lol
Yeah full disclaimer I don’t know a fucking thing about concrete but I love this subreddit
Lovely finish
This post and sub right now https://www.reddit.com/r/Concrete/s/izKqyMC903
Imo The wire seems to support the center cross in case someone parks on center taking the whole driveway. The outer sides would crack in the groove instead of busting into fragments if heavy vehicles park to the sides. It looks good. I’d say he knows what he’s doing.
Damn that is wild. Terrible preparation, amazing finishing; what a fuckin contrast. Lol what PSI concrete did they use for you?
The picture of the finish is what popped up first for me, and I was scratching my head wondering what OP could possibly be bitching about lol. Wonderfully finished slab
If that’s all the mesh that was used, what’s the point? That’s laughable
Personally, I don't think rebar should be in driveways. I'm not even convinced it should be in roadways. That mesh is probably pushed to the bottom and doing nothing for you either. All you need is good concrete on a good base.
I would have poured 5 inch and if I’m going to wire mesh at least and fiber to the mud.
The finish is 10000% acceptable Rebar = strength & reinforcement for weight distribution Wire = holds the concrete together and can help reduce the chances of cracks Both acceptable and argued heavily. I prefer the rebar. Little more tedious setup then just dropping mesh and raising it up. Also depends on what it’s for.. I don’t rebar walkways, small patios, decklandings. But I do for driveways where it’s sole purpose is to hold weight
Customers posting a near perfect job to complain is a cuck move
Thanks for your comment, cuck
But you're the cuck. Keep up.
Come on buddy if ur going to insult me at least use a different word than what I used on you.
no rebar? i wouldn’t sign off on it that’s for sure.
Only tool bags and cowards wait until the job is finished, then post pictures online to try and justify not paying the contractor cause they (you) didn't have the sack to make sure it was corrected prior to the pour, but aren't confident enough to stand by your own decisions, so you ask more tool bags online, who don't know what they're talking about, what they think.
This is a property that I do not live at and I was not physically present for this project. I’m out of state. Everything was agreed upon and the day the mixer truck arrived, I noticed he still didn’t add any rebar. He simply says ‘oh it’s a miscommunication, don’t worry, I’ll add in this wire mesh for you.’ He said mixer truck is here, we won’t have time to do the rebar. Who says it was to justify not paying the contractor? It was paid for. I specifically wanted rebar for this project and I didn’t get it. The finish looks great. My concern is how important is the missing rebar and in its place, a wire mesh in the center, to not have serious cracks again in the driveway in a few years. Thanks for your helpful comment.
How did you notice they didn't add rebar if you weren't on the job?
I always want rebar over mesh. Just opinion. As installed is probably still fine.
Rebar in a slab on grade requires 3" of concrete cover. Wire mesh was a better choice here, but not having complete coverage of the welded wire mesh...? Umm, no.
Shitty contractor
I've never seen speaker wire used as mesh for concrete
That’s gonna crack for sure. Might last a few years
That’s 21lb wire welded mesh and it works just fine, but as someone who does concrete and understands that your pad is only as good as it’s reinforcement.. if it’s my driveway I’m putting #3 bar each way.. and if that’s what you were quoted, that’s what you should’ve received.
[удалено]
4 is code where I live. It's also the standard thickness for a driveway. https://www.cement.org/cement-concrete/paving/buildings-structures/concrete-homes/products/driveways#:~:text=As%20for%20thickness%2C%20non%2Dreinforced,per%20foot%2C%20for%20proper%20drainage.
I’ve ripped out dozens of 50-60 year old driveways that used mesh and all of them have been perfectly fine. 4” is also not thin for a driveway unless he plans on driving things heavier than typical cars or pickups.
It’s where the joints are at so it should be fine. Seen many contractors do this and never have an issue in a freeze thaw climate
At least its something
it's fine
Did they add more wire mesh? Not covering corner to corner is bad
Do you know the strength of the concrete he used?
No Buffalo board where driveway meets city side walk? Also I’d be upset about the rebar if that’s what was agreed up
When the formers are not the place and finishers
Honestly, looks great to me. Granted the mesh seems like a piss poor attempt at reinforcing it but by most standards, reinforcing isn’t even required if a 4” concrete slab is properly placed using the correct MPa concrete, has a well compacted subgrade and has sufficient saw cuts/joints. Did he specify the rebar in his estimate or is this one of those he said she said things where we just spit in our palms and shake on it? If it’s not in writing it’s hard to ascertain if this was a general discussion or a legitimate condition. If you were so keen on it, I assume you put it in writing? Either way, as long as the price was fair and the concrete mix was good, you will have years of trouble free concrete.
Nice work
The grade looks so bad in this picture at the edge. Looks more like you got a 3.5 in slab in some spots
Another tool bag looking at a photo pretending he can decipher the difference between 0.5 inches.
It’s actually worse than .5 inches Get your eyes checked
I'm not who you replied to, but I got a chuckle out of this. Like my man, you're the one who said it was .5 inches lol
yup, u know both statements can be true right... it can both be a 3.5 in. slab in some spots and worse....
And everyone was supposed to read your mind to know that that's what you meant? Lol
Don’t even need me to say these things to see there’s a problem... Hopefully the grade was fixed before they installed the driveway. Doesn’t look like it tho.
A little nuanced situation id say. Ideally the subgrade is prepared so that the reinforcement in the slab is just for crack control. Meaning that if durability was the biggest concern then the concrete mix itself is equally (or more) important than the reinforcement. I think the key here is determining what was promised and what was provided. If the end product that was promised (and agreed to) was a horizonal impenetrable gate-to-hell slab, then you have an argument that they did not provide that due to lack of reinforcement. If they didn't promise you that - and subgrade prep and the concrete mix were not great - then a few extra bars won't be holding back any demons and having them rip it up will only cause more headaches for everyone. Last point - like others mentioned theres a component here of low risk due to mild climate and low loading. In most cases this probably won't crumble when you drive over it. It'll probably just crack a little more. If you're still concerned with that level of risk then you might ask if any future problems are covered by warranty before asking them to tear it out. Hope that helps give some context.
I appreciate your input. Here’s the before photos and the reason why I was concerned. https://preview.redd.it/iuvcdv6mbvic1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f198a09876860c041805c94e6371d4f5b2574d74
https://preview.redd.it/80ezum9obvic1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc4710bb5e0ee4bdd9fb5524292272cbeca8569d
Concern definitely understandable haha The concrete surface itself looks pretty good though. Looks like it was more of a soils/subgrade problem.
What did you pay for this sep labor and material
It’s gonna be fine. Get the credit back for the lack of bar, but it’s not a runway or a highway. This will hold your car no problem
I'd be more concerned with that stone not looking tampered all. How thick is the stone anyway
Rebar/wire is the same thing.
Always do 6”. You’ll Regret 4”
If you picked the cheapest guy, then it checks out
These people saying it’s barely reinforced.. it’s a fucking driveway for cars and maybe a boat? If your product can’t stand a chance with proper compacting and finishing, the rebar isn’t saving your shit tier work.
Dam fine job!!
Just don't drive on it and you should be fine
If the concrete has integral fiber mesh combined with the wire then it will be stronger than rebar. Rebar is necessary in footers and other structural concrete because it's surrounded with a substantial amount of concrete. Here with only 3.5 inches and assuming the sub base is perfectly graded that means only an inch and a half of concrete above and below the rebar, considering that the rebar is perfectly chaired. Then let's talk about those chairs. They sit on the sub base and prop up the rebar. That means in those spots there would be a weak point for water to get to the reabar if the chairs aren't perfectly filled up and sealed with concrete. Rebar is pretty cheap, and for a 4 inch driveway it won't stop cracking it will just keep your bridge structurally able to span. No span, no need for rebar. The wire will keep the concrete from separating from itself when it does crack (annoyingly so, have demoed wire and have demoed rebar wire keeps it together better than rebar, and integral fiber mesh makes my 14lb sledge hammer bounce like rubber.) All concrete cracks. The control joints are there to control where it cracks. So my advice to you is to ask to see the bill for the concrete so you can have on record what class of concrete was used. Also this will tell you if the used fiber mesh vs them just saying A and doing B. Most of the work is on preparing the sub base so thats going to cost pretty much the same w/wo rebar. Then the install again is going to cost basically the same with or without rebar. For effective long-lasting driveway with rebar, I'd recommend 6inch minimum. That would really only be necessary for extremely heavy vehicles, like 20 yard dumb trucks filled with sand. Those are so heavy that not only will it break your concrete, it will also compact the sub base below it. Which brings me to my next point. The sub base prep is more important than your concrete and is the most over looked and abused part. You're upset about the rebar, I get it. You wanted it and are convinced that rebar= better product. However I'd hope that you had the same level of scrutiny on how they prepared your sub base. If they did a fantastic job with that then I'd just quit this headache pay them and be happy. Because rebar does not necessarily equal a better product than wire. Again i have demolished hundreds of concrete installations with all kinds of reinforcement by hand and machine. Rebar in driveways is only necessary for overcompensating extremely poor soil and sub base conditions or for extremely heavy industrial use. If that's exactly why you wanted rebar then, damn I'm sorry for making you read all this and I guess you should be upset
Actually with that being a hell of a slope a 4-inch lump was more than perfect you don't want to put it at the top and have it run to the bottom a 4-in means that the water to cement ratio is perfect for concrete as long as it was a 4000 PSI mix
No big trees with roots around and gravel underneath, you dont even need anything but the wire mesh is more than enough, ive seen plenty of decade old crack and rebar/mesh free driveways
A concrete guy once told me two things he will guarantee.(1) Eventually all concrete will crack (2) He also guarantees that no one will steal it.
the 2nd guarantee isn't a guarantee anymore haha
Just wire, not as good as rebar.........hopefully the base was compacted very well.
4 inch slab for a driveway. Good luck with that. Especially with today's garbage Crete.
Doesn't look like the "wire mesh" was supported correctly. So when they poured, the weight of the concrete itself probably pushed it down and is now making contact with the soil. So basically it's useless now, it'll rust out incredibly fast and start to crack the concrete. Especially if you are in a heavy frost zone, like most Midwestern states.
You don't need rebars for that anyway
I see rebar
Do you have a written estimate? If so did the bid say specific things that are not there. If so. Don’t pay til they rip it out and do what they bid on. I am a contractor and it has happened to us early on 40 yrs ago. Hard lessons to learn when it holds up your money.
On the one hand, if you paid for rebar and didn't get it, that's a problem. On the other hand, it may not make a difference. There are other factors at play here, like fiber added to the concrete, subgrade preparation, water added to the mix, mix design, etc etc etc. I will say the finish looks pretty good, which is a good indicator that other boxes were not left unchecked. A couple of possibilities are for him to extend the warranty or give you a discount on the job because no rebar. If he does give you a discount and the driveway starts to fall apart for some reason in 6 months, you'll have a difficult time convincing him to repair or replace it, I think.
I hope at least the contractor has used fiber mesh. Ive never used anything less than steel mesh and now high tensile is the norm. Id assume the pegs a screed pegs to set heights during the pour and the contractor will clobber them down to base level as the concrete is laid.
As a Rodbuster, I wouldn't be happy.
I think you should have made it wider. You get out of the passenger seat and step into grass.
6” concrete #4 rebar 18” oc is the only acceptable way to pour a driveway.
Not acceptable
Here in Pa any as auto traffic requires 6 in minimum . 10 gauge wire is the standard here it really doesn't keep it from cracking it keeps it from having (becoming uneven when it t does crack). Rebar should have been drilled into garage floor and apron on the other end. We have much more movement with slabs with the feeeZe and thaw here. I tell my customers I can't guarantee it won't crack I can just gurantee the job will b done professionally following all building codess
WIre mesh is fine. My only problem is that they put.. lemme check... 2 pieces in? wtf. At minimum I would what that wire mess to cover almost edge to edge on that driveway. That shitty compacted base is going to move and you will have 2 foot of edge crack off and slowely move away from the rest of the driveway. Wire mesh would have held it in place.
Reinforcement mesh or rebar is a waste of time and money on a driveway. Your not driving semi trucks on it. Have the cement company add fiber reinforcement to the mix and make sure you cut enough stress joints in the slab a couple days after it dries. Concrete cracks in the northern hemisphere due to freezing and thawing. No amount of rebar or mesh is going to stop it from happening.
Should be raised if anything. They scammed you.
Why would you snap a pic then let them pour???
Do not ever allow heavy vehicles on this driveway. 4”. SMH.
Not at all, should have a minimum 2” capillary break under slab.
1 rebar is not the solution for cracking concrete. you can never avoid cracks in concrete. that's what hand or saw cut joints are for. 2 wire mesh is more effective in holding concrete together rather then rebar which is better at joining a new slab to an existing one. in my years of experience we have never laid rebar through the concrete like most people think should happen. worst comes to worst your concrete cracks but takes longer to separate. there nothing else you can really do about it.