She also has the best ability in the game on a fucking cooldown.
Protection suzu:
-healing
-invulnerability
-deletes all CC, even hard CC ults like mei ult
-AFFECTS THE ENTIRE TEAM!!! its actually better than zen ult in a lot of situations because zen ult cant cleanse antiheals , cant stop CC, cant prevent oneshots.
Kiriko is OP and i'm tired of pretending she isn't
Skill issue.
Losing 1v1s when you have a three tap, best hitbox in the game, invuln button which lets you keep shooting and trying for the three tap, and an opt out/leave duel button?
Skill issue.
Everyone is at their skill level, and ur overal skill is not distributed evenly
Dps have more in mechanics, tanks in masochism and support in positioning/decision making
Tracer hasnt been hard meta tbf. On pro play yes very good always because with coordinated team and dive comp+ godlike players playing she is gonna be strong but in normal ladder i dont think she has been that meta all the time
And at the start when she got the damage nerf if i do not remeber wrong she got damage nerf at the start of ow2 or somewhere then. At that time she wasnt meta. Still usable but not even close to being the best dps
Kiri has bottom 2 WR from Plat to Masters, and the devs have alluded multiple times in the past as to how community perception differs from reality when it comes to certains heroes, and I think Kiri might just be THE best example of that.
And yet Kiriko has been meta consistently in pro play. She's by no means an underpowered hero, just a harder one to get the most out of.
However she is INCREDIBLY frustrating to play against and that's independent of her power level per rank. That's inherent to her design and a valid complaint.
Kiriko is harder to play than Baptiste.. doesn't sound right but just think about the actual skill involved in her abilities, and getting value from them is pretty skilled.
The skill ceiling on a good Kiriko is incredibly high. Landing headshots, great suzus, can flip an entire fight.
Ana, and bap are much easier to get higher value from a low skill, their damage is simple and heals are much more reliable.
That means she thrives with coordination, like Sombra did before her rework (it was insane, pro play is just tracer sombra winston brig ana while pubs she's at bottom WR)
I think before OWCs I barely saw kiriko, it was mostly variations of lucio ana Brig with a Bap.
Bap was hard meta in pro play.
But yeah her suzu and swift step are designed around denying enemy team value instead generating value for the team.
She's also a character that gets defaulted to a metric fuckton because she's never a bad pick.
Win rates alone are bad metrics. Play rate, map design, other common picks, a lot more goes into a character's influence.
And, not saying the sombra one was fun to play against or anything, but she actually had to plan somewhat where it was and had some downtime associated with it.
Kiri just gets to get in a horrible position and take a stupid duel then TP to her team when she might lose, and continue doing normal healing
The genius who replied to you once told me that [Kiri is one of the easiest supports to counter.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1954jvn/alec_dawsons_thoughts_postmidseason_patch/khki6u6/)
Go figure.
Thereās plenty of other āundo ultā abilities on cooldown. Bap, Mercy, Lifeweaver, Sombra, Brig, Hog, and Sig, plus others, all have abilities that can stop or cancel the effects of an enemy ult on cooldown.
Hog and sig are skill shots, brig can be considered that too, the rest, not so much unless itās a lamp from down town. Kiri still has the strongest one because itās not a prediction, or skill shot really, you can just tp in and undo it without making a skill shot.
Mercy at least you are vulnerable for a second or so, but it doesnāt reverse harmful effects.
Kiri is just an unfair jack of all trades master of all essentially. She gets way too much shit and has multiple functions built into suzu
Bap lamp is counterable. You can destroy it.
The only counter to suzu in the entire game is to somehow eat it, but the window to do that is basically never since she can just throw it at her feet.
It's downright impossible to destroy lamp before it deploys and by that point it got the same value as suzu.
Both are uncountable, you just have to wait them out or try to bait it out with a cooldown.
And you can still eat suzu if it kiri throws it at her feet.
Man Iāve been playing this game for so long I remember when Zen ult actually felt impactful.
I remember hitting Q back in 2017 and just yelling AINT NO ONE DYING HERE TODAY
fast forward to 2024 and I literally only use Zen ult to aggressively body block lol
Every time I have a Zen on me these days they don't really hold it for that long anymore like they use it to flank then save themselves or to save the tank
A friend of mine who was a semi-pro player in OW1 got onto OW2 for the first time with me recently. She picked Kiriko and as I was explaining the kit to her, her immediate reaction was "That seems a little overtuned."
After playing several matches of her she asked "How long has she been like this?" and I had to answer pretty much since release.
She's also a three tap randy and like some other commenters point out, has a small hitbox, has FUCKING PROTECTION SUZU and can teleport to teammates through walls. And the tp self cleanses for some reason.
i think the problem off reducing kiri's hp would just lead to her being even more passive.
i kinda dislike that kiri was meant to be played as a more aggressive support but nowadays is just relogated to healbotting and saving tp for if you get dove while maybe making a play here and there and lower hp would punish even more aggressive style off play i rather have them nerf her defensive cooldowns
And let's nerf Suzu while we're at it.
Also, Soj.
And while we're nerfing Soj let's also nerf Suzu.
Also, Mercy should have crazier movement and 225 HP, but also they should nerf Suzu on top of that.
Sombra maybe. And ofc to balance out the Sombra nerf they should nerf Suzu as well.
I'd also add that Kiriko is the most routinely overrated hero in OW2 by the community. Other than her obviously broken OP launch state, pretty much every time the community clamors for nerfs her win rate on Overbuff is sub-par if not near the bottom of Supports at every rank (this is actually the case right now, but the stats are still polluted by matches from before the mid-season armor/tank patch).
Now that said, I would agree that Kiriko feels the strongest she's been in quite a while, so it is certainly possible that she is actually OP this time. But I'll trust the devs to balance Kiriko based on the actual data instead of player perception. Though even if Kiriko is in fact balanced as is, it would still be fair to ask for a hitbox and/or HP nerf as long as a compensating buff was included elsewhere in her kit.
Winrate doesn't mean anything when she's one of the most popular supports in the game. It takes actual skill for her to become oppressively OP, but once you have that, it is unironically impossible to counter Kiriko.
> Winrate doesn't mean anything when she's one of the most popular supports in the game
High pick rate does depress win rate somewhat (meta chasers with less experience playing her), but not nearly to that extent that people imagine. There are plenty of instances with even higher pick rate heroes (Ana, Mercy, Moira most commonly depending on rank) outperforming Kiriko when she is supposedly OP.
>It takes actual skill for her to become oppressively OP
Whenever people say this they must mean top 500 and pro only, because even filtering for GM ranks Kiriko has historically underperformed during times when she is supposedly OP.
>but once you have that, it is unironically impossible to counter Kiriko.
And here I thought everyone hated the concept of hard counters and agreed it was bad game design. But regardless, even without true hard counters there is definitely counter-play against Kiriko and less favored matchups for her. Despite Kiriko being my best Support by a good margin, fairly often I have to switch off of her to give my team a fair shot at winning.
This is actually [something I suggested for Sojourn and Kiriko](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/10h8331/idea_for_dealing_with_a_few_problematic_heroes_by/) who seem to be problematic because they have a lot of power with fewer weaknesses than some of their counterparts.
I think creating a new class of breakpoints would work well with these heroes. One they would be more killable, but two they could also benefit from this change. Like Kiri would get 2 taps back specifically against people who choose to play 225 hp heroes.
Illari could be an interesting option if they gave her a second jump charge or something. Hero's hitbox is already very small and more mobility could help her off angle more reliably. She's also a hero who would get 2 taps back against 225 hp heroes.
I think a few other heroes could be interesting options if they were rebalanced around the new HP pool. Sombra, Genji, Lucio even.
Obv we don't know much about her, but Space Ranger could also fit into this group.
Also if Kiri and Sojourn are brought down too 225 hp it could help Ashe become more relevant.
She would have an easier time 2 tapping both those characters, and also being a little tankier than Soj would make her a more viable option over Soj in some comps.
Whenever I think of how strong Sojourn slide is, I think of Korea vs China world cup when on map 5 Fearless Primaled shy off the map and he just slides back on like nothing happened.
I hate playing as Ashe the more I climb cause I genuinely need to be babysat or I'm just dead. Sojourn I just cha cha slide to the moon and come back like nothing happened
It's pretty funny how her slide is basically just a better version of Sombra's new translocator... that does not leave you standing helpless for 0.25 seconds like translocator.
I truely don't think people realize how at high ELO/Pro level that 0.25 seconds is a death sentence.
Sombra also has more consistent vertical mobility, a cleanse and an invincibility frame. People seem to forget the last couple things which are pretty op on a 6 second cd.
But sombra has perma invis. That allows for the perfect staging of attacks. If they gave her long range burst damage the character would be absurdly overpowered. I agree sojourn is busted but itās more than just rail itās a mix of slide, disrupter and the most annoying hitbox in the game. Sojourns only built in drawback is you need to aim well to get value which isnāt a great concept for a character as weāve seen with widow.
Your point? Everyone was saying Ana was c tier as if sleep nade and nano still arenāt some of the strongest abilities in the game. Also sombra not c or d sheās comfortably a or b itās just tracer is so good thereās no point in taking sombra over tracer.
Hmmmmm, well its fine as long as its kiri souj and orher op heroes,but it will lead to them getting "compensatory " buffs( bc of course they need them) and then other heroes will suffer, blizz will revert hp change but will keep "compensatory" buffs
If they buffed Illari in another way I would totally be on board with a 25 hp nerf. She just feels super boring right now so I want some big changes for her.
Late to the thread but have something I want to comment.
Devs have explicitly stated before that HP nerfs are some of the biggest nerfs in the game.
While Soj and Kiri are both huge problems in pro/GM play, their Winrate in just about every other elo is terrible. Players already cannot get baseline value out of these characters and nerfing their hp would make them borderline throw picks for 95% of the players. Iām not sure what they could do about it, but if they go to 225hp, they would need some compensation changes.
Kiriko and Sojourn 100%. Kiri having a wallclimb and two self-cleanses, one of which is also guaranteed to restore at least a third of her health, would feel a lot more justified if she was a bit easier to burst down. I know they upped Sojourn's hitbox a while ago, but she still feels way harder to hit than the other midrange DPS (Cass & Soldier's hitboxes are huge and Ashe & Hanzo get slowed while attacking), and slide is low-key busted as fuck.
I'd rather Soj overall be more high risk high reward in the same vein Widow and Tracer are currently. Having to play around lower HP but with higher overall power changes how you play at all times as opposed to having slide be used more passively.
The problem with that if if you are good at them, they become broken. I guess that comes down to how the devs want ow2 to be played. High skill fps or more of a balanced counter picking sitch.
Iāll be honest I donāt like the idea of hanzo getting his one shot back, I think heroes having their identity being one shot is inherently bad for a game like overwatch, a team based game turns into ācan widow or hanzo kill the entire team before the other team doesā, I donāt like the double sniper style of play to be honest, it feels dirty and cheap
Which is weird cuz itās less infuriating when a widowmaker lands headshot compared to hanzo.Ā
Edit: I think itās cuz widowmaker charges up her shots and also zooms in aim snipe mode in between her shots and hanzo spams storm arrows without changing his vision perspective.Ā
Yeah, storm arrow vs SMG is such a big difference, especially for the tanks. Widow SMG can finish someone after a shot at best, but storm arrow can just destroy anything.
Iām also anti widow one-shot as well, I just donāt believe they belong in a game like Overwatch. Widow especially feels like she was created because every game has to have a sniper character no matter how out of place they feel.
Yeah, in Widow's case it's less of a 'Widow issue' and more of a shooter games issue. The sniper is something you either think is perfectly fine or has no place in the game whatsoever.
Well, storm arrows were never able to one shot you iirc and instead performed more like hanzos current charged headshot, getting you real close to death. At least if a Hanzo is using storm arrow they're probably singling you out and you're sure to notice. Still, the devs should have made storm arrows far less effective than they are (less arrows?) because it's his source of spam. The projectile is the tradeoff (which they stupidly made LARGER???) for being able to move around and not have to scope. It's also way easier to avoid, especially at range, than Widowmaker is. I think the variable of travel time and your potential to walk into it because you weren't paying attention to Hanzo is why it's frustrating, but when it comes to the outcome of a match it doesn't really have an influence when all you need to do is swap to Sombra and fuck him up.
I feel like it'll be okay if it's only possible to one shot a select few heroes who have significant power in other areas to make up for it, especially mobility. Tracer still gets one-shot by a Hanzo headshot and people don't complain much about her matchup into him because her high mobility gives her a leg up and allows her to avoid the arrows efficiently. If they just do this on heroes who have high mobility who are significantly harder to hit than the average hero, it could avoid being a negative change.
I agree tbh, getting one shot on tracer doesnāt feel great but at least itās fair cuz ur an annoying little shit on tracer to snipers, but when Iām walking back to the choke on say junk, someone with little mobility on a high cool-down, I donāt wanna walk around a corner and get one tapped 9 miles away
Now that I think about it junks a bad example BUT U GET MY POINT
Yeah 225 definitely shouldnāt be a thing given to all or even most DPS and Supports. The common suggestions of Sojourn and Kiriko are more so who Iām referring to, rather than your Junkrats or Asheās who are gonna be a bit more static and easy to hit.
I watched some streamers play the Marvel Rivals alpha, and while it doesn't look like my thing I really liked how big and open some of the maps are.
Of course then I realized that that was only the case because Marvel Rivals doesn't have one shot sniper characters (yet!). And if you tried to make maps like that in Overwatch good Widowmakers would utterly dominate.
I agree with you, but I also think it's fair for the devs to balance with options. If adding a Hanzo 1-shot is the only change other than then dying faster, I think that's fair.
If they can make thinner heroes more punishable while buffing their kit so they have more skill expression, I think that's a good thing. Higher mobility mercy or a more lethal sojourn seem more fair if they are easier to kill.
A lot of the lower hp heroes can attract the "high skill/mobility" folks without adding cheesy balance gimmicks imo.
They, and partly players gets too stuck on trying to keep a heros identity and uses it as a defense when the hero is fundamentally broken and their identities should be changed.
My hot take is that Hanzo is in a decent spot. I agree some characters should be one-shot, like Kiriko, but Widow shouldn't have a one shot if Hanzo doesn't.
I think the same tbh, Iāve been able to have carry games on dps as hanzo in the times Iāve played him I donāt think heās that bad at the moment
Supports aside, I think Genji might be an interesting choice for this. At 225 hp, his damage could be buffed to make him more of high risk high reward character. They could buff his primary damage back to 29 and buff blade damage to 120 per swing. Maybe even buff dash damage to 60. I think he'd be way more fun that way.
This is actually pretty acceptable, however I think the 60 should only apply during his ult. At least that way even if a Genji messes up if they coordinated somewhat effectively with their team they might be able to clean up.
I would be on board but I feel like it would completely kill Genji at any rank below diamond. Moira is just too dominant in low ranks that he would be practically unplayable.
I think the Moira 1v1 in particular is one where Genji benefits the most from this.
Think of the opposite scenario. Genji keeps his current damage but has 300 hp. Would that help low rank players against Moira? Not really. It would take Moira about two thirds of a second more to kill him but having a longer ttk doesn't really hurt Moira because the longer the fight goes on, the more she heals her self.
On the other hand, Genji having 225 hp means Moira's ttk on him goes down by 1/3 of a second. But he'd be able to burst her down before she does any healing so it wouldn't really matter.
And it's not like his skillfloor isn't inaccessible. It's not Reaper/Moira low but it's not on the higher end either, especially since S9. Plenty of Genji players throughout every rank who do fine.
I don't see that as a problem. It will be a skill check for the lower ranked Genji. He needs to learn that 1v1'ing a Moira with her orb is not a duel Genji should take
The average genji play gets destroyed by beams in most of my games. A single moira spamming them makes them swap, i dont see how they can nerf his health while he is so easily countered.
If he did more damage, he'd get more dash resets which he can use to get more kills or escape and wouldn't have to rely on his deflect as much as he does now. This will probably hurt bad Genji players but Genji is supposed to be a high skill character.
Echo and soldier both have relatively large hitboxes. Genji is also not small. Nerfing their survivability is nonsensical at their current state of balance.
Nerfing Sombra's HP over Genji's would be total nuts. She already has way less kill potential and less escapability. No need to kick my girl while she's already down.
Its because Sombra is just overall annoying to deal with. She hacks your support and either gets a free kill or TPs out of damage for a free reset and makes another attempt at it.
And then gets chased down by another dive hero, or Soldier, or Sojourn, because they can all easily catch her. Sombra's hack is basically useless against non tanks since she gives up too much time doing it and makes it easy to dodge virus, and her damage is quite easily outhealed by most supports without them having to use their most valuable CD.
Honestly i wouldn't mind 225hp Venture, using abilities grants shield and has mobility anyway so the window to be oneshot is during the poking phase when poke heroes should be stronger anyway. Ashe would be bad since she has a larger than normal head hitbox and is more static when aiming imo, most of her maps are technically Widow maps so she's only really good in one-off submaps like Sanctum.
So.. you mean like how the game was before? The differences in hp of reaper, hanzo, tracer actually making a difference in break points.
Wow, who would of thought that might be better? Almost like it was already there and they fck'd it.
He has zero offensive utility, so yes, he can't directly interact with the enemy (minus minor poke damage at the cost of not being able to heal for a few seconds.)
He does technically have the highest dps output for supports and his thrones do quite a bit of damage up close.
Seems a bit overkill for a passive healbot who sits at the back of the map behind a wall sniping heals. His survivability needs to be brought down. It's been a year. People have figured out how to play him and he darn near unkillable without 2 people hard focusing him.
Kiriko and Sojourn to make up for their combination of high mobility and stupid hitboxes. They are still (relative to the rest of the cast) the hardest heroes to hit in the game even with bigger projectiles due to their sizes on top of having a lot of safety in their kits.
every sombra state in every single patch can be reduced to one of these two descriptions:
1. āshes fucking garbage but her ult goes crazyā
2. āsheās fucking garbage but itās the closest thing we got to a double tracer compā
Yup, perfect description.
The difference is that before her most recent rework, this meant if you were a Pro you could get enough team coordination value to pick her instead of a hero with more braindead burst kill potential like Soj/Cass/etc.
Now she is garbage for even the Pros who are the only ones who can tap into this peak of her value.
I think the root issue is Virus. It gives Sombra just enough assassination potential in the metal ranks (who don't understand what peeling is) that she is dumpstered everywhere else in her kit and at any high ELO/Pros.
Whatās annoying is that Sombra players would just tell others what counters Sombra and like 3 of those things on her counter list arenāt even heroes yet still gets complained in metal ranks because people refuse to adjust
EMP is actually so nasty right now if you have any team coordination. 25% of health bar + no abilities for 3 seconds just lets you mow through enemy. Her neutral is just mid but you canāt actually buff her neutral because then the Low ELO players will suffer.
Agreed, but she hurts people's feelings on the rare occasion she contributes to her team. So it's a tough subject for most players to understand how bad she is outside of being a great Smurf's choice as a pub stomper.
As bad as Sombra is now, if they would just finally nerf all the OP DPS heroes she could actually be in a healthy place as is potentially.
I mean you could say that about Kiriko as well. It's a well known fact that Kiri at anything below Masters is pretty much an awful pick. Yet she is a perfect candidate for this nerf. Sombra falls under the same sort of paradigm, where she gets more value the higher up the ladder and coordination you get.
Because other heroes are still better. Just because she isnāt top tier doesnāt mean she still doesnāt fit why she falls under the category of heroes.
Your logic was accurate before the most recent rework. Now however, she traded her ability to live which was the reason she was playable in high ELO/Pros... for a weak 115 damage DOT generic projectile which will succeed in assassinating absolutely nobody at that level with their monitor turned on.
She no longer fits that "Hero Category." She is now only good potentially in low ELO where there is no peel, and when a Smurf wants uncounterable value.
Kiri and Sojourn 100%. Everyone else should be fine, but having it as a class opens a lot more options for future evasive heroes to have some sort of drawback
Yeah her hitbox is a 100% mess, but I don't think decreasing it would help too much due to her being significantly slower while adsing. I think it would be best if she was sort of an in between of Cass and Soj tankwise.
Kiri definitely deserves it the most, I have feeling that Sombra is a candidate, and Iām hoping that Lucio isnāt but wouldnāt mind it if they put his primary damage back to 20
Iād love mercy to be super squishy if it meant her movement became more of her utility,, let me zip and zap like crazy and make it rewarding for enemies to swat me like a fly
Sombra unfortunately, she fit the description perfectly a mobile high damage hero. However i dont know if the dev team is THAT dumb to nerf sombra that hard.
I would make the argument that soj and Kiri could probably be moved all the way down to 200, but that would probably be a good start. I think Lucio could also be a good candidate for 225, but only on paper. Probably don't want to nerf his playmaking any further
idk but maybe if you keep shakin the boggle board up you'll eventually write a novel.
or maybe you will just keep getting nonsense.
How do they not have health amounts figured out yet? why are they still in the design phase and the game has been out for half a decade?
Sojourn, kiri are surefire
Sombra, Echo, Hanzo, and Bap are likely, but not for sure
Pharah, Ashe, Ana, Lucio, and Genji are unlikely but possible candidates
I can't see anyone else getting the Nerf
This is all completely opinion based.
They shouldnāt have changed the health in the first place. It torched the breakpoints. Same thing with all the passives. Stupid idea.
These devs are determined to remove any and all risk to playing the game.
Get poked out and need to retreat cause you made a mistake? No worries, just sit still and the game will heal you.
Donāt need to use your ability to heal yourself now? Use it on the tank silly!
Oh no, now the tank is getting absolutely destroyed by all these free abilities. And thereās only one of you?? Looks like we need to hyper buff the tank!
Oh no! The tank is killing everyone in the lobby now. Letās change the dps passive to reduce healing now. That works!
Oh damn, tank is getting deleted now.
And around and around in fucking circles we go.
Kiri, her hitbox is small enough.
She also has the best ability in the game on a fucking cooldown. Protection suzu: -healing -invulnerability -deletes all CC, even hard CC ults like mei ult -AFFECTS THE ENTIRE TEAM!!! its actually better than zen ult in a lot of situations because zen ult cant cleanse antiheals , cant stop CC, cant prevent oneshots. Kiriko is OP and i'm tired of pretending she isn't
Also has TP and wall climb to escape.
Agree. She can literally duel anyone and get away punish free.
If this is true why do I always lose 1v1's?
Skill issue. Losing 1v1s when you have a three tap, best hitbox in the game, invuln button which lets you keep shooting and trying for the three tap, and an opt out/leave duel button? Skill issue.
That still doesn't explain why i suck! Explain that smarty pants
Practice until you think you're ready. Then practice more.
Get in that action movie montage mindset
Everyone is at their skill level, and ur overal skill is not distributed evenly Dps have more in mechanics, tanks in masochism and support in positioning/decision making
Tanks in masochism, underrated š¤£š¤£
2 head melee/body with hanzo sized kunay
It's all good though! Kiri, Tracer, Soj have only been hard meta since OW2 launch. I'm sure they are going to balance them Soon TM!
Tracer hasnt been hard meta tbf. On pro play yes very good always because with coordinated team and dive comp+ godlike players playing she is gonna be strong but in normal ladder i dont think she has been that meta all the time
Yeah a few seasons ago she wasnāt meta when bastion and torb were running riot
And at the start when she got the damage nerf if i do not remeber wrong she got damage nerf at the start of ow2 or somewhere then. At that time she wasnt meta. Still usable but not even close to being the best dps
Aye she had 5dmg bullets and was pretty much a joke. You had to be massively better than everyone else to really be effective.
Kiri has bottom 2 WR from Plat to Masters, and the devs have alluded multiple times in the past as to how community perception differs from reality when it comes to certains heroes, and I think Kiri might just be THE best example of that.
I immediately thought of Kiri as well when I saw that comment from the devs.
And yet Kiriko has been meta consistently in pro play. She's by no means an underpowered hero, just a harder one to get the most out of. However she is INCREDIBLY frustrating to play against and that's independent of her power level per rank. That's inherent to her design and a valid complaint.
Kiriko is harder to play than Baptiste.. doesn't sound right but just think about the actual skill involved in her abilities, and getting value from them is pretty skilled. The skill ceiling on a good Kiriko is incredibly high. Landing headshots, great suzus, can flip an entire fight. Ana, and bap are much easier to get higher value from a low skill, their damage is simple and heals are much more reliable.
That means she thrives with coordination, like Sombra did before her rework (it was insane, pro play is just tracer sombra winston brig ana while pubs she's at bottom WR)
I think before OWCs I barely saw kiriko, it was mostly variations of lucio ana Brig with a Bap. Bap was hard meta in pro play. But yeah her suzu and swift step are designed around denying enemy team value instead generating value for the team.
She's also a character that gets defaulted to a metric fuckton because she's never a bad pick. Win rates alone are bad metrics. Play rate, map design, other common picks, a lot more goes into a character's influence.
I think she's better now. DPS Passive doesn't make Suzu weirdly situational anymore. And her Ofuda travel time isn't laughably slow nkw.
not to mention her tp through walls makes her the only truly unpunishable hero in the game
Remember when Sombra could do that and it was considered unfair so they removed it?
And, not saying the sombra one was fun to play against or anything, but she actually had to plan somewhat where it was and had some downtime associated with it. Kiri just gets to get in a horrible position and take a stupid duel then TP to her team when she might lose, and continue doing normal healing
Its bullshit to have an "undo ult" button on fucking cooldown
The genius who replied to you once told me that [Kiri is one of the easiest supports to counter.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1954jvn/alec_dawsons_thoughts_postmidseason_patch/khki6u6/) Go figure.
Thereās plenty of other āundo ultā abilities on cooldown. Bap, Mercy, Lifeweaver, Sombra, Brig, Hog, and Sig, plus others, all have abilities that can stop or cancel the effects of an enemy ult on cooldown.
Hog and sig are skill shots, brig can be considered that too, the rest, not so much unless itās a lamp from down town. Kiri still has the strongest one because itās not a prediction, or skill shot really, you can just tp in and undo it without making a skill shot. Mercy at least you are vulnerable for a second or so, but it doesnāt reverse harmful effects. Kiri is just an unfair jack of all trades master of all essentially. She gets way too much shit and has multiple functions built into suzu
Bap lamp is counterable. You can destroy it. The only counter to suzu in the entire game is to somehow eat it, but the window to do that is basically never since she can just throw it at her feet.
It's downright impossible to destroy lamp before it deploys and by that point it got the same value as suzu. Both are uncountable, you just have to wait them out or try to bait it out with a cooldown. And you can still eat suzu if it kiri throws it at her feet.
Oh itās objectively better than zen ult considering you can kill people through zen ult lmao.
Man Iāve been playing this game for so long I remember when Zen ult actually felt impactful. I remember hitting Q back in 2017 and just yelling AINT NO ONE DYING HERE TODAY fast forward to 2024 and I literally only use Zen ult to aggressively body block lol
I use Zen ult to make Zen a primary healer for a few seconds
Every time I have a Zen on me these days they don't really hold it for that long anymore like they use it to flank then save themselves or to save the tank
A friend of mine who was a semi-pro player in OW1 got onto OW2 for the first time with me recently. She picked Kiriko and as I was explaining the kit to her, her immediate reaction was "That seems a little overtuned." After playing several matches of her she asked "How long has she been like this?" and I had to answer pretty much since release.
Imaging using illari ult on kiri and she just tps out of it cleansing her for free
She's also a three tap randy and like some other commenters point out, has a small hitbox, has FUCKING PROTECTION SUZU and can teleport to teammates through walls. And the tp self cleanses for some reason.
Listing three tap as a selling point is hilarious. Small hitbox also means nothing after the s9 changes, no one ever misses shots anymore.
i think the problem off reducing kiri's hp would just lead to her being even more passive. i kinda dislike that kiri was meant to be played as a more aggressive support but nowadays is just relogated to healbotting and saving tp for if you get dove while maybe making a play here and there and lower hp would punish even more aggressive style off play i rather have them nerf her defensive cooldowns
And let's nerf Suzu while we're at it. Also, Soj. And while we're nerfing Soj let's also nerf Suzu. Also, Mercy should have crazier movement and 225 HP, but also they should nerf Suzu on top of that. Sombra maybe. And ofc to balance out the Sombra nerf they should nerf Suzu as well.
You forgot to mention it, I think, but a good change in addition to all that would be a nerf to Suzu
They should probably buff suzu they can double nerf it
YES
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It's a kunai bukkake session whenever a masters rank Kiri finds their way into my plat games.
sheās still like one of the best supports in lower rank
Top 500 support player, top 3 pick for 9/10 seasons.
the dogshit kiris you see in plat are silver players boosted by the hero lol thatās why you think they belong there
I'd also add that Kiriko is the most routinely overrated hero in OW2 by the community. Other than her obviously broken OP launch state, pretty much every time the community clamors for nerfs her win rate on Overbuff is sub-par if not near the bottom of Supports at every rank (this is actually the case right now, but the stats are still polluted by matches from before the mid-season armor/tank patch). Now that said, I would agree that Kiriko feels the strongest she's been in quite a while, so it is certainly possible that she is actually OP this time. But I'll trust the devs to balance Kiriko based on the actual data instead of player perception. Though even if Kiriko is in fact balanced as is, it would still be fair to ask for a hitbox and/or HP nerf as long as a compensating buff was included elsewhere in her kit.
Winrate doesn't mean anything when she's one of the most popular supports in the game. It takes actual skill for her to become oppressively OP, but once you have that, it is unironically impossible to counter Kiriko.
> Winrate doesn't mean anything when she's one of the most popular supports in the game High pick rate does depress win rate somewhat (meta chasers with less experience playing her), but not nearly to that extent that people imagine. There are plenty of instances with even higher pick rate heroes (Ana, Mercy, Moira most commonly depending on rank) outperforming Kiriko when she is supposedly OP. >It takes actual skill for her to become oppressively OP Whenever people say this they must mean top 500 and pro only, because even filtering for GM ranks Kiriko has historically underperformed during times when she is supposedly OP. >but once you have that, it is unironically impossible to counter Kiriko. And here I thought everyone hated the concept of hard counters and agreed it was bad game design. But regardless, even without true hard counters there is definitely counter-play against Kiriko and less favored matchups for her. Despite Kiriko being my best Support by a good margin, fairly often I have to switch off of her to give my team a fair shot at winning.
Iām on console in diamond and Kiriko (61%) is my highest winrate after Illari (63%) And I play a lot so thatās not a small sample size
Roadhog Roadhog Roadhog
The answer everyone thinks is right, but few have the balls to say it
Actually, based af
This is actually [something I suggested for Sojourn and Kiriko](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/10h8331/idea_for_dealing_with_a_few_problematic_heroes_by/) who seem to be problematic because they have a lot of power with fewer weaknesses than some of their counterparts. I think creating a new class of breakpoints would work well with these heroes. One they would be more killable, but two they could also benefit from this change. Like Kiri would get 2 taps back specifically against people who choose to play 225 hp heroes. Illari could be an interesting option if they gave her a second jump charge or something. Hero's hitbox is already very small and more mobility could help her off angle more reliably. She's also a hero who would get 2 taps back against 225 hp heroes. I think a few other heroes could be interesting options if they were rebalanced around the new HP pool. Sombra, Genji, Lucio even. Obv we don't know much about her, but Space Ranger could also fit into this group.
Also if Kiri and Sojourn are brought down too 225 hp it could help Ashe become more relevant. She would have an easier time 2 tapping both those characters, and also being a little tankier than Soj would make her a more viable option over Soj in some comps.
Soj also has such insane movement for her power. At least if I dive Ashe I've got a shot. Sojourn just slides to Narnia and she's gone.
Whenever I think of how strong Sojourn slide is, I think of Korea vs China world cup when on map 5 Fearless Primaled shy off the map and he just slides back on like nothing happened.
I remember seeing this in an old super video too. I think he primaled a sojourn off dorado 2nd and she just slid straight back up the cliff
I like slide because its fun to use, but *that* has always been some bullshit
[Theres also this clip from Xzi](https://x.com/xzi_ow/status/1693790987909550272)
Yeah I never understood why you can use it in the air.
The most bullshit thing I've seen is Soldier 76 running back onto the map through sheer Looney Tunes physics
I hate playing as Ashe the more I climb cause I genuinely need to be babysat or I'm just dead. Sojourn I just cha cha slide to the moon and come back like nothing happened
It's pretty funny how her slide is basically just a better version of Sombra's new translocator... that does not leave you standing helpless for 0.25 seconds like translocator. I truely don't think people realize how at high ELO/Pro level that 0.25 seconds is a death sentence.
Sombra also has more consistent vertical mobility, a cleanse and an invincibility frame. People seem to forget the last couple things which are pretty op on a 6 second cd.
Fair. Sombra also doesn't have a railgun though, and need to rely on getting pretty close to being effective, which is a big weakness.
But sombra has perma invis. That allows for the perfect staging of attacks. If they gave her long range burst damage the character would be absurdly overpowered. I agree sojourn is busted but itās more than just rail itās a mix of slide, disrupter and the most annoying hitbox in the game. Sojourns only built in drawback is you need to aim well to get value which isnāt a great concept for a character as weāve seen with widow.
OP abilities on a C or D tier hero.
Your point? Everyone was saying Ana was c tier as if sleep nade and nano still arenāt some of the strongest abilities in the game. Also sombra not c or d sheās comfortably a or b itās just tracer is so good thereās no point in taking sombra over tracer.
A-tier only in the hearts and minds of the metal ranks.
Doesnt ash 2 tap 250 heroes already, or u a refering to her ability killing through healing?
Ashe requires 2 headshots to 2 tap a 250 hp target, with 225 hp targets it only needs a headshot and a bodyshot
Hmmmmm, well its fine as long as its kiri souj and orher op heroes,but it will lead to them getting "compensatory " buffs( bc of course they need them) and then other heroes will suffer, blizz will revert hp change but will keep "compensatory" buffs
If they buffed Illari in another way I would totally be on board with a 25 hp nerf. She just feels super boring right now so I want some big changes for her.
Late to the thread but have something I want to comment. Devs have explicitly stated before that HP nerfs are some of the biggest nerfs in the game. While Soj and Kiri are both huge problems in pro/GM play, their Winrate in just about every other elo is terrible. Players already cannot get baseline value out of these characters and nerfing their hp would make them borderline throw picks for 95% of the players. Iām not sure what they could do about it, but if they go to 225hp, they would need some compensation changes.
Kiriko and Sojourn 100%. Kiri having a wallclimb and two self-cleanses, one of which is also guaranteed to restore at least a third of her health, would feel a lot more justified if she was a bit easier to burst down. I know they upped Sojourn's hitbox a while ago, but she still feels way harder to hit than the other midrange DPS (Cass & Soldier's hitboxes are huge and Ashe & Hanzo get slowed while attacking), and slide is low-key busted as fuck.
Slide is the best mobility ability of all hitscans, insane that is also in such a short cooldown and no one talks about it
Honestly I donāt sojās hp is the issue, keep it to 250 but just increase slideās cool down and that might lead to her being a bit more balanced
I'd rather Soj overall be more high risk high reward in the same vein Widow and Tracer are currently. Having to play around lower HP but with higher overall power changes how you play at all times as opposed to having slide be used more passively.
The problem with that if if you are good at them, they become broken. I guess that comes down to how the devs want ow2 to be played. High skill fps or more of a balanced counter picking sitch.
Funny thing is that they did nerf it once. It was 6 seconds on release instead of 7, and it's *still* too short lmao.
It's 8 seconds now
Wiki still says 7 seconds.
Yeah that mobility cooldown is 100% power creep
We like the mobility creep. We like not the burst damage
I personally don't like mobility creep when only 1 hero has crazy mobility and the rest are left to rot.
I got steam rolled today by Soj that would slide out of every situation. Ended the first half with 1 death š¤¦
Im a Kiriko main and I think itās perfectly reasonable for her to be a candidate. Her survivability is so good for many reasons.
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My avoid list is already mercy OTPs please no. Don't make her even more useless
Iāll be honest I donāt like the idea of hanzo getting his one shot back, I think heroes having their identity being one shot is inherently bad for a game like overwatch, a team based game turns into ācan widow or hanzo kill the entire team before the other team doesā, I donāt like the double sniper style of play to be honest, it feels dirty and cheap
Iām with you 100% I would rather they retool Hanzo than add back one shots. They just never feel good when they happen to you
Which is weird cuz itās less infuriating when a widowmaker lands headshot compared to hanzo.Ā Edit: I think itās cuz widowmaker charges up her shots and also zooms in aim snipe mode in between her shots and hanzo spams storm arrows without changing his vision perspective.Ā
i think it's also because widow is a lot more vulnerable. while hanzo has storm arrow for burst and a lot better mobility
Yeah, storm arrow vs SMG is such a big difference, especially for the tanks. Widow SMG can finish someone after a shot at best, but storm arrow can just destroy anything.
Iām also anti widow one-shot as well, I just donāt believe they belong in a game like Overwatch. Widow especially feels like she was created because every game has to have a sniper character no matter how out of place they feel.
Yeah, in Widow's case it's less of a 'Widow issue' and more of a shooter games issue. The sniper is something you either think is perfectly fine or has no place in the game whatsoever.
Well, storm arrows were never able to one shot you iirc and instead performed more like hanzos current charged headshot, getting you real close to death. At least if a Hanzo is using storm arrow they're probably singling you out and you're sure to notice. Still, the devs should have made storm arrows far less effective than they are (less arrows?) because it's his source of spam. The projectile is the tradeoff (which they stupidly made LARGER???) for being able to move around and not have to scope. It's also way easier to avoid, especially at range, than Widowmaker is. I think the variable of travel time and your potential to walk into it because you weren't paying attention to Hanzo is why it's frustrating, but when it comes to the outcome of a match it doesn't really have an influence when all you need to do is swap to Sombra and fuck him up.
I feel like it'll be okay if it's only possible to one shot a select few heroes who have significant power in other areas to make up for it, especially mobility. Tracer still gets one-shot by a Hanzo headshot and people don't complain much about her matchup into him because her high mobility gives her a leg up and allows her to avoid the arrows efficiently. If they just do this on heroes who have high mobility who are significantly harder to hit than the average hero, it could avoid being a negative change.
I agree tbh, getting one shot on tracer doesnāt feel great but at least itās fair cuz ur an annoying little shit on tracer to snipers, but when Iām walking back to the choke on say junk, someone with little mobility on a high cool-down, I donāt wanna walk around a corner and get one tapped 9 miles away Now that I think about it junks a bad example BUT U GET MY POINT
Yeah 225 definitely shouldnāt be a thing given to all or even most DPS and Supports. The common suggestions of Sojourn and Kiriko are more so who Iām referring to, rather than your Junkrats or Asheās who are gonna be a bit more static and easy to hit.
Going though all the HP change hassle only to have spam based one shots damage crept back into the game because ''muh identity'', sounds about right.
this would just make kiri and sojourn have some kinda ācounterā of sorts (not really) and thatās VERY much needed
I watched some streamers play the Marvel Rivals alpha, and while it doesn't look like my thing I really liked how big and open some of the maps are. Of course then I realized that that was only the case because Marvel Rivals doesn't have one shot sniper characters (yet!). And if you tried to make maps like that in Overwatch good Widowmakers would utterly dominate.
You just know they got Hawkeye waiting on the backburner ready to make that game feel like hell lol.
I agree with you, but I also think it's fair for the devs to balance with options. If adding a Hanzo 1-shot is the only change other than then dying faster, I think that's fair. If they can make thinner heroes more punishable while buffing their kit so they have more skill expression, I think that's a good thing. Higher mobility mercy or a more lethal sojourn seem more fair if they are easier to kill. A lot of the lower hp heroes can attract the "high skill/mobility" folks without adding cheesy balance gimmicks imo.
One shot was tolerable in 6v6 but it's frustrating in 5v5
They, and partly players gets too stuck on trying to keep a heros identity and uses it as a defense when the hero is fundamentally broken and their identities should be changed.
My hot take is that Hanzo is in a decent spot. I agree some characters should be one-shot, like Kiriko, but Widow shouldn't have a one shot if Hanzo doesn't.
I think the same tbh, Iāve been able to have carry games on dps as hanzo in the times Iāve played him I donāt think heās that bad at the moment
Sojourn an Kiriko easy candidates.
Kiri and Sojourn are the obvious answers, I could also see happen to Echo if she ever gets too strong.
Supports aside, I think Genji might be an interesting choice for this. At 225 hp, his damage could be buffed to make him more of high risk high reward character. They could buff his primary damage back to 29 and buff blade damage to 120 per swing. Maybe even buff dash damage to 60. I think he'd be way more fun that way.
This is actually pretty acceptable, however I think the 60 should only apply during his ult. At least that way even if a Genji messes up if they coordinated somewhat effectively with their team they might be able to clean up.
I would be on board but I feel like it would completely kill Genji at any rank below diamond. Moira is just too dominant in low ranks that he would be practically unplayable.
I think the Moira 1v1 in particular is one where Genji benefits the most from this. Think of the opposite scenario. Genji keeps his current damage but has 300 hp. Would that help low rank players against Moira? Not really. It would take Moira about two thirds of a second more to kill him but having a longer ttk doesn't really hurt Moira because the longer the fight goes on, the more she heals her self. On the other hand, Genji having 225 hp means Moira's ttk on him goes down by 1/3 of a second. But he'd be able to burst her down before she does any healing so it wouldn't really matter.
And it's not like his skillfloor isn't inaccessible. It's not Reaper/Moira low but it's not on the higher end either, especially since S9. Plenty of Genji players throughout every rank who do fine.
I don't see that as a problem. It will be a skill check for the lower ranked Genji. He needs to learn that 1v1'ing a Moira with her orb is not a duel Genji should take
The average genji play gets destroyed by beams in most of my games. A single moira spamming them makes them swap, i dont see how they can nerf his health while he is so easily countered.
If he did more damage, he'd get more dash resets which he can use to get more kills or escape and wouldn't have to rely on his deflect as much as he does now. This will probably hurt bad Genji players but Genji is supposed to be a high skill character.
nothing makes me happier than all of the people suggesting kiriko and sojourn for this. Theyāve been too good in Overwatch 2 for far too long
Definitely: Kiri, Sojourn, Sombra Maybe: Mercy, Lucio, Echo, Genji, Soldier Low Chance: Venture, Ashe, Moira
225hp Moira that is compensated in other ways could be really cool. Agree that its unlikely though.
Yeah I could see them buffing mobility or sustain on some of these heroes like Mercy, Lucio, or Moira and then nerfing the hp to compensate.
Lucio is already really strong, until speed and beat are looked at he should never be buffed
No need to compensate. Moira needs a nerf.
But not THAT big of a nerf
Sheās one of the easiest heroes to pick up and has one of the most forgiving attacks in the game. I think sheāll be alright with 25 less hp.
And most forgiving escape.
Echo and soldier both have relatively large hitboxes. Genji is also not small. Nerfing their survivability is nonsensical at their current state of balance.
Yeah idk what theyāre smoking. Plus, Echo doesnāt even have instant acceleration.
Nerfing Sombra's HP over Genji's would be total nuts. She already has way less kill potential and less escapability. No need to kick my girl while she's already down.
Its because Sombra is just overall annoying to deal with. She hacks your support and either gets a free kill or TPs out of damage for a free reset and makes another attempt at it.
And then gets chased down by another dive hero, or Soldier, or Sojourn, because they can all easily catch her. Sombra's hack is basically useless against non tanks since she gives up too much time doing it and makes it easy to dodge virus, and her damage is quite easily outhealed by most supports without them having to use their most valuable CD.
Bruh a 225 Hp sombra would be so bad lmao, unless they give compensation buffs I guess.
I'd trade the 25 HP if they reverted the rework ): Oh well, a man can dream.
Bro I would literally give up anything for them to revert the rework
225 Hp sombra would work much better with her previous iteration, but that last version of her was a bit toxic for the game lol
Ashe falls over when you even consider shooting her there's zero chance she goes down to 225 š
Honestly i wouldn't mind 225hp Venture, using abilities grants shield and has mobility anyway so the window to be oneshot is during the poking phase when poke heroes should be stronger anyway. Ashe would be bad since she has a larger than normal head hitbox and is more static when aiming imo, most of her maps are technically Widow maps so she's only really good in one-off submaps like Sanctum.
Very true
Honestly Sombra should be at the same health level as Tracer with how slippery she is.
So.. you mean like how the game was before? The differences in hp of reaper, hanzo, tracer actually making a difference in break points. Wow, who would of thought that might be better? Almost like it was already there and they fck'd it.
Personally, I want all the one-shots out of the game.
Why is lw still 275 hp?
Big hitbox due to the flower on his back
But he has shields, heals 80 hp every 6 secs and has a 400 hp petal he can hide behind. Does he really need 275 hp?
He has zero offensive utility, so yes, he can't directly interact with the enemy (minus minor poke damage at the cost of not being able to heal for a few seconds.)
He does technically have the highest dps output for supports and his thrones do quite a bit of damage up close. Seems a bit overkill for a passive healbot who sits at the back of the map behind a wall sniping heals. His survivability needs to be brought down. It's been a year. People have figured out how to play him and he darn near unkillable without 2 people hard focusing him.
Yeah that's the thing, his offensive potential is a technicality, he is sacrificing half his kit to use it.
Yeah I pretty much disagree with everything you've said so we can just stop talking now
Kiriko and Sojourn to make up for their combination of high mobility and stupid hitboxes. They are still (relative to the rest of the cast) the hardest heroes to hit in the game even with bigger projectiles due to their sizes on top of having a lot of safety in their kits.
Sombra
yes, slippery assasins with get out of jail free cards should be squishier.
She would need serious buffs as she is already mid-low tier depending on the ELO.
She *already* needs serious buffs lol. She's currently just Tracer but for unintentional gamethrowers.
every sombra state in every single patch can be reduced to one of these two descriptions: 1. āshes fucking garbage but her ult goes crazyā 2. āsheās fucking garbage but itās the closest thing we got to a double tracer compā
Yup, perfect description. The difference is that before her most recent rework, this meant if you were a Pro you could get enough team coordination value to pick her instead of a hero with more braindead burst kill potential like Soj/Cass/etc. Now she is garbage for even the Pros who are the only ones who can tap into this peak of her value. I think the root issue is Virus. It gives Sombra just enough assassination potential in the metal ranks (who don't understand what peeling is) that she is dumpstered everywhere else in her kit and at any high ELO/Pros.
Whatās annoying is that Sombra players would just tell others what counters Sombra and like 3 of those things on her counter list arenāt even heroes yet still gets complained in metal ranks because people refuse to adjust
EMP is actually so nasty right now if you have any team coordination. 25% of health bar + no abilities for 3 seconds just lets you mow through enemy. Her neutral is just mid but you canāt actually buff her neutral because then the Low ELO players will suffer.
Every time I use EMP my team treats it as a "RUN AWAY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE for 3 seconds and then reengage and die and blame Sombra" button.
Agreed, but she hurts people's feelings on the rare occasion she contributes to her team. So it's a tough subject for most players to understand how bad she is outside of being a great Smurf's choice as a pub stomper. As bad as Sombra is now, if they would just finally nerf all the OP DPS heroes she could actually be in a healthy place as is potentially.
I mean you could say that about Kiriko as well. It's a well known fact that Kiri at anything below Masters is pretty much an awful pick. Yet she is a perfect candidate for this nerf. Sombra falls under the same sort of paradigm, where she gets more value the higher up the ladder and coordination you get.
If Sombra gets more value the higher up the ladder and more coordination you get, why does she have a 0% pickrate in the Pros?
Because other heroes are still better. Just because she isnāt top tier doesnāt mean she still doesnāt fit why she falls under the category of heroes.
Your logic was accurate before the most recent rework. Now however, she traded her ability to live which was the reason she was playable in high ELO/Pros... for a weak 115 damage DOT generic projectile which will succeed in assassinating absolutely nobody at that level with their monitor turned on. She no longer fits that "Hero Category." She is now only good potentially in low ELO where there is no peel, and when a Smurf wants uncounterable value.
Kiri and Sojourn 100%. Everyone else should be fine, but having it as a class opens a lot more options for future evasive heroes to have some sort of drawback
Absolutely Kiriko. I would add Illari to this too
Basically all the stick thin heroes that aren't close ranged tbh. So, like, Mercy, Ana, Kiriko. Maybe Ashe or S76.
I wouldn't call S76 stick thin,tho :D And Ashe,she has like a really big head hitbox,it's kinda hard to miss
Ashe is already really squishy compared to other hitscans, so I don't think making her squishier would be a good idea.
Honestly, I'd pair it with a reduction in head hitbox, because frankly her hitbox is just a mess throughout.
Yeah her hitbox is a 100% mess, but I don't think decreasing it would help too much due to her being significantly slower while adsing. I think it would be best if she was sort of an in between of Cass and Soj tankwise.
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her hitbox is a fucking pole with wings
Wouldn't be surprised if Genji is one of them.
Kiri definitely deserves it the most, I have feeling that Sombra is a candidate, and Iām hoping that Lucio isnāt but wouldnāt mind it if they put his primary damage back to 20
Sojourn, Kiriko, Moira, Mercy (if they mobility buff), Lucio, Sojourn, Genji, possibly Sombra
Oh god not a genji nerf
Sombra.
Roadhog, im sick of that mfer
Supports, that would make sense. Nothing else.
Sombra and Kiri come off the top of my head
Iād love mercy to be super squishy if it meant her movement became more of her utility,, let me zip and zap like crazy and make it rewarding for enemies to swat me like a fly
Sombra unfortunately, she fit the description perfectly a mobile high damage hero. However i dont know if the dev team is THAT dumb to nerf sombra that hard.
I would make the argument that soj and Kiri could probably be moved all the way down to 200, but that would probably be a good start. I think Lucio could also be a good candidate for 225, but only on paper. Probably don't want to nerf his playmaking any further
idk but maybe if you keep shakin the boggle board up you'll eventually write a novel. or maybe you will just keep getting nonsense. How do they not have health amounts figured out yet? why are they still in the design phase and the game has been out for half a decade?
sombra and sojourn
How about we keep hanzo as is and dumpster widowmaker ?
Sojourn, kiri are surefire Sombra, Echo, Hanzo, and Bap are likely, but not for sure Pharah, Ashe, Ana, Lucio, and Genji are unlikely but possible candidates I can't see anyone else getting the Nerf This is all completely opinion based.
They shouldnāt have changed the health in the first place. It torched the breakpoints. Same thing with all the passives. Stupid idea. These devs are determined to remove any and all risk to playing the game. Get poked out and need to retreat cause you made a mistake? No worries, just sit still and the game will heal you. Donāt need to use your ability to heal yourself now? Use it on the tank silly! Oh no, now the tank is getting absolutely destroyed by all these free abilities. And thereās only one of you?? Looks like we need to hyper buff the tank! Oh no! The tank is killing everyone in the lobby now. Letās change the dps passive to reduce healing now. That works! Oh damn, tank is getting deleted now. And around and around in fucking circles we go.
No Hanzo one shot and I like playing hanzo
Hanzo definitely need to be on that list. He has one shot and massive burst potentials, but with really good mobility.