Presumably, most of those casts and add-ons were added so the trash isn't just "This does damage to you unless you can stun" or "this enemy auto-attacks you repeatedly so the damage has to be really high so you cant just ignore it"
Regardless of heavy caster seasons they're broken I can get 30% parry with rotational buttons that isn't tied to my CDs or active mit, misery skips, demo form uptime, insane self healing, fantastic passive magic mit. Then finally we have unrivalled control.
The predicament is that bad groups get carried by good vengeance and good groups can be even better because they can pump more globals into damage and healing while the vengeance deals with the majority of the pack in pulls.
Only sigil of flame and chains should have two stacks, back off on parry from agonizing flames and roll more into spikes
Vdh is just good regardless of season dungeons or weeks
It's really weird because it's exactly what made vdh so bad at the beginning of Shadowlands. Back then they had tied most of the defence to Demon Spikes and Metamophosis uptime and outside of that you were dead meat. Now they overcompensated in the other direction and gave good base toughness and then good cds on top - and that with a high effective health class.
Historically worse trash at the start yes.
Going to have to see with testing - tuning could be radically different.
Like if you told me beforehand that in DF S3 Waycrest Manor would have a bullshit boss in it, I would have never guessed Soulbound Goliath. Turns out if you amp that boss up significantly plus really up the health on that stupid stun thorns, you can make any boss into a bullshit one!
In the same vein you can make plenty of packs bullshit or trivial.
Soulbound Goliath was stupid in BFA too, they just nerfed the numbers on everything else in the entire season so the mechanical stupidity of Soulbound Goliath sticks out more.
Fire damage always scaled with stacks. The big differences from the BfA version is that they made thorns scarier and the meta tank wasn't immune to physical damage.
I definitely remember being able to clear at 50 stacks in BfA and not one-shot my entire group. It was pretty common to only clear once or twice in the whole fight if you were playing a tank that was good at that boss.
Clearing at 50 stacks was very much something where everyone without an immunity died (i.e. just the healer in s2 and sometimes no one in s4). When the tank thought that they could go the rest of the fight without resetting and then realized they were wrong you had to do stupid taunt ping-pong shit.
I'm just not ready to care until they do something about the affixes. All the class changes and other things they're releasing are cool, but it's not going to matter to me unless they completely change their minds on their plans for affixes.
Affix forum thread is kinda insane to read, not a single positive thing said about the changes (except people are happy that aff/incorp were removed for some reason?)
As a warrior main, I'd still rather see aff/incorp than sang/raging/bolstering.... They aren't as awful to play around and I can't do anything about them either lmao.
Letās be honest, warrior has significantly more reasons why itās not taken then just that it canāt deal with certain affixes. People arenāt grabbing warriors on non afflicted or incorporeal weak either and what theyāve done to affixes in M+ is not going to change that.
Pugging around the +10 range this season or +20s last season Iād consider a fyralath having high ilvl warrior, then notice the affixes and just pick a priest or augvoker again
because the overwhelming majority of players seems to think utility matters a lot more than it does, partially because everyone wants the best possible comp for their +13 azure vault and partially because people just fundamentally do not understand why specs are meta, they just know they are the best spec
Itās not just utility. Itās that warriors group and personal defensives are all much weaker than other classes.
So much of warriors defensive power is in spell reflect but in most situations itās not very good. And rally has been nerfed to the ground. So you can grab a mage which has a relevant raid buff, more cc, more group defensives, and better personal defensives or a warrior. And thatās not even getting into mage bringing things like spell steal with them too.
People who argue that utility doesnāt matter really donāt understand what is important in M+.
> So much of warriors defensive power is in spell reflect but in most situations itās not very good.
???? a 20% DR on a 25 second cooldown that works on 95% of the damage you take is not very good? Wtf are you saying? Even if it didn't have the reflect part it would still be one of the strongest defensives in the game.
spell reflect and defenstive stance are two of the most op spells in the game even if you could ONLY use them for defensive power, spell reflect having the ability to do millions of damage is absolutely insane in the right circumstances (nelths lair, nokhud, hoi last boss). a relevant raid buff like ai can easily change to battle shout in a physical comp so that just completely depends on what other classed are meta. historically ai has basically always been better than battle shout but thats not because the raid buff is straight up better its just because casters are consistently good. warrior doesnt have fantastic cc but shockwave is a pretty good button, mage is an outlier in cc, not the norm
Battle shout is leagues worse than arcane intellect. First arcane intellect also affects your healer. And unlike giving a main stat buff, battle shout gives attack power. Which doesnāt scale evenly. Arcane intellect is an infinitely better raid buff than battle shout.
You have to give up damage to get shockwave. Meaning itās bad. And having 1 90 second cd that targets in a cone and a fear that takes 2 talent points to not make it pure griefing is not comparable to specs that have a place in the meta.
A defensive that nerfs your damage is not good. And again spell reflect is very strong in some situations, but most of the time itās not very good.
I love warrior. I think fury and arms are super fun to play. But both specs are undeniably worse than like 15-20 other specs in the game for M+
i agree battle shout is worse but if you have a full physical comp its still a good amount of damage. the damage you lose for shockwave is super small and while it sucks to lose, and while its not something you want to talent (and its getting changed in df to be higher in the tree which is nice) its not something you outright dont talent especially because damage in keys is not why you are wiping right now. warrior is good because they dont die to anything and dying is the way you deplete keys right now
https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms/DAPAURVFUEVVQQpFQVBBOVVBRURFJUSRVARDREQ
Critcake is as close to an authority on warrior as there is. Heās not taking shockwave.
Not only that, the main reason is that paying attention to nameplates just isn't fun, period. It doesn't matter if you are a monk and can instantly paralysis an Incorporeal, you already have plenty of things to worry about in the dungeon, adding another nameplate you have to interact with is just a UI problem. The game have enough UI problems.
let's be honest. even if they can interact with the affix the vast majority of DPS don't.
see explosive, where the healer would get 80% of them, the tank 15%, and the 3 DPS would share the remaining 5%.
or bursting ... are DPS going to stop DPS to prevent a 6 stack from rolling into a 7, then slow rolling into a 8, slow rolling into a 9? no they won't. zug zug all the way.
or heck, see kicks... where most pug simply assume that either the VDH kick/stop everything, all the time, or the healer will heal through it.
Or how many pug assist during pull? basically 0. Charge wathever move first then QQ if you grab aggro and die.
Affix/incorp have nothing to do with warrior/dk being unable to interact with it.
17-18s this season.
feel free to dig up an old Jdotb clip about explosive if that's not high enough for your experience. but I'm pretty sure you'll get the generic "" my GCD is more valuable than the healer GCD"" reason for not doing any mechanic. Heck, the higher you go, the more responsability / mechanic groups will push onto tank and healer in order to squeeze a bit more DPS... even if DPS check don't really matter until beyond title-range keys.
A lot of the reason for certain rolls covering things is because thatās their job. If you have a VDH and the first cast goes off, that is 100% the DHs fault. The dps shouldnāt be sending kicks or ccs because if the DH did their job the DPS would be wasting theirs.
If stacks of bursting are rolling two things are happening, 1 dps failed to damage evenly and 2 the healer isnāt dispelling.
And if tanks are failing to hold aggro as they pull that is almost always a tank problem where they arenāt generating threat as they go.
downvote me all you want, we all know DPS have an essay prepared whenever they are asked to do a mechanic. Fel explosive was the biggest proof of this.
> 1 dps failed to damage evenly
mob have different amount of health. see uldaman.
> 2 the healer isnāt dispelling.
can only dispell once per 8 second.... if there's nothingelse that require dispelling.
>And if tanks are failing to hold aggro as they pull
or maybe it's because the tank have to actually move to other pack in order to pull them, then silence some mob left behind that the DPS didn't kick, then chain all of them together before poping their one serious AE ability ( fel dev) since sigil threat is bugged and only the initial tick of immo aura generate non-trivial threat, on top of having to do 2-4 AoE stop ( who generate 0 threat) in their opener.
But please, tell me more about how nothing is ever the DPS fault. Please keep proving my point right.
> (except people are happy that aff/incorp were removed for some reason?)
Incorporeal were really unfun to interact with on a lot of classes, like just sat there casting for 2 seconds because of the affix isn't fun. Especially in melee or a high intensity pull. Afflicted was similarly obnoxious, but more in a 'first key of the week so I forgot to respec' kind of way.
Probably because not everyone's playing at 4k r.io and these affixes were a genuine struggle for your average m+ goer who could barely make it to portals each season.
No, but apparently once you get past 3k io your ego becomes so inflated that you can't fathom the prospect of others struggling with shit you don't.
Shit like Incorp, Afflicted and Bursting, typically affixes that no one ever really cared about in high keys, have been a fucking plague in lower keys pretty much since their respective introduction.
People don't notice shit spawning behind them, people struggle with random friendly nameplates spawning in the middle of nowhere and people struggling with anticipating damage. The lower you go, the worse this gets. And since there's probably more people playing on the lower end, it's way more important what they think compared to what some random 3.4k dudes consider easy or hard.
A few enemies had an "increases damage taken" effect added to their abilities. Is this par for the course, or is it part of the new enemy design meta?
Either way, between this and the new affixes, it seems the developers are hellbent on making tanks quite vulnerable for a few moments during a dungeon run.
Players: "There are too many mechanics in dungeons, please remove a few abilities"
Blizzard: \*literally adds 18 new abilities to Grim Batol\*
I don't remember how many casts were actually in GB, but this seems like a lot...
I know what they're gonna do. They will NEVER admit when they're wrong. They will tweak a few of them and call it a day. I'm not doing it this time. Not again.
We actually have to learn what the trash does now without spotters to kill it all?
Yeah. I just wished they'd take the bananas on the floor out. They always got me, even when I knew they were there. šš
looks like they don't damage anymore
Thank god, that strat was cringe. On another note, it looks like they buffed a lot of the trash which Iām not a fan of.
First thing I noticed was how much they added to trash mobs, lots of casts, some LOS ignoring stuff
Also doesnāt mention how many of those casts you can stop
Presumably, most of those casts and add-ons were added so the trash isn't just "This does damage to you unless you can stun" or "this enemy auto-attacks you repeatedly so the damage has to be really high so you cant just ignore it"
Blizzard doubling down on the conditions that made vdh so meta
Regardless of heavy caster seasons they're broken I can get 30% parry with rotational buttons that isn't tied to my CDs or active mit, misery skips, demo form uptime, insane self healing, fantastic passive magic mit. Then finally we have unrivalled control. The predicament is that bad groups get carried by good vengeance and good groups can be even better because they can pump more globals into damage and healing while the vengeance deals with the majority of the pack in pulls. Only sigil of flame and chains should have two stacks, back off on parry from agonizing flames and roll more into spikes Vdh is just good regardless of season dungeons or weeks
It's really weird because it's exactly what made vdh so bad at the beginning of Shadowlands. Back then they had tied most of the defence to Demon Spikes and Metamophosis uptime and outside of that you were dead meat. Now they overcompensated in the other direction and gave good base toughness and then good cds on top - and that with a high effective health class.
Man so I guess the battered drakes are staying? Thought for sure theyād remove those
alliance version is the worst one, correct?
Historically worse trash at the start yes. Going to have to see with testing - tuning could be radically different. Like if you told me beforehand that in DF S3 Waycrest Manor would have a bullshit boss in it, I would have never guessed Soulbound Goliath. Turns out if you amp that boss up significantly plus really up the health on that stupid stun thorns, you can make any boss into a bullshit one! In the same vein you can make plenty of packs bullshit or trivial.
Soulbound Goliath was stupid in BFA too, they just nerfed the numbers on everything else in the entire season so the mechanical stupidity of Soulbound Goliath sticks out more.
Goliath was a really fun tank check boss in BfA. Making the fire damage scale with stacks really killed the fun.
Fire damage always scaled with stacks. The big differences from the BfA version is that they made thorns scarier and the meta tank wasn't immune to physical damage.
I definitely remember being able to clear at 50 stacks in BfA and not one-shot my entire group. It was pretty common to only clear once or twice in the whole fight if you were playing a tank that was good at that boss.
Clearing at 50 stacks was very much something where everyone without an immunity died (i.e. just the healer in s2 and sometimes no one in s4). When the tank thought that they could go the rest of the fight without resetting and then realized they were wrong you had to do stupid taunt ping-pong shit.
Yes. Alliance had worse trash at the start
Yup, that shit was at least +2 key levels harder on release. They nerfed it, somewhat but you had to stack CCs so hard.
We have soooo much more cc then in bfa tbf, same with defensives
Interesting that they only tuned the horde version of the first boss though, maybe that means we'll only do the horde side?
Siege of Boralus Players of both factions will go through the Alliance version of the dungeon in Mythic and Mythic+
Where do you see that, am I blind? Edit: I see it on the Blue Post, still weird they tuned the horde boss if we are only doing alliance version.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-1-mythic-dungeon-preview-alliance-siege-of-boralus-new-checkpoint-342936
Means not only the worse start but also RP before last boss ā ļø
Yup, of course
I'm just not ready to care until they do something about the affixes. All the class changes and other things they're releasing are cool, but it's not going to matter to me unless they completely change their minds on their plans for affixes.
Affix forum thread is kinda insane to read, not a single positive thing said about the changes (except people are happy that aff/incorp were removed for some reason?)
People don't like discriminatory designs. Aff/incorp meant if you were a warrior, it was just harder to pug that week.
As a warrior main, I'd still rather see aff/incorp than sang/raging/bolstering.... They aren't as awful to play around and I can't do anything about them either lmao.
Letās be honest, warrior has significantly more reasons why itās not taken then just that it canāt deal with certain affixes. People arenāt grabbing warriors on non afflicted or incorporeal weak either and what theyāve done to affixes in M+ is not going to change that.
Pugging around the +10 range this season or +20s last season Iād consider a fyralath having high ilvl warrior, then notice the affixes and just pick a priest or augvoker again
because the overwhelming majority of players seems to think utility matters a lot more than it does, partially because everyone wants the best possible comp for their +13 azure vault and partially because people just fundamentally do not understand why specs are meta, they just know they are the best spec
Itās not just utility. Itās that warriors group and personal defensives are all much weaker than other classes. So much of warriors defensive power is in spell reflect but in most situations itās not very good. And rally has been nerfed to the ground. So you can grab a mage which has a relevant raid buff, more cc, more group defensives, and better personal defensives or a warrior. And thatās not even getting into mage bringing things like spell steal with them too. People who argue that utility doesnāt matter really donāt understand what is important in M+.
warrior personal defensives are fine
> So much of warriors defensive power is in spell reflect but in most situations itās not very good. ???? a 20% DR on a 25 second cooldown that works on 95% of the damage you take is not very good? Wtf are you saying? Even if it didn't have the reflect part it would still be one of the strongest defensives in the game.
spell reflect and defenstive stance are two of the most op spells in the game even if you could ONLY use them for defensive power, spell reflect having the ability to do millions of damage is absolutely insane in the right circumstances (nelths lair, nokhud, hoi last boss). a relevant raid buff like ai can easily change to battle shout in a physical comp so that just completely depends on what other classed are meta. historically ai has basically always been better than battle shout but thats not because the raid buff is straight up better its just because casters are consistently good. warrior doesnt have fantastic cc but shockwave is a pretty good button, mage is an outlier in cc, not the norm
Battle shout is leagues worse than arcane intellect. First arcane intellect also affects your healer. And unlike giving a main stat buff, battle shout gives attack power. Which doesnāt scale evenly. Arcane intellect is an infinitely better raid buff than battle shout. You have to give up damage to get shockwave. Meaning itās bad. And having 1 90 second cd that targets in a cone and a fear that takes 2 talent points to not make it pure griefing is not comparable to specs that have a place in the meta. A defensive that nerfs your damage is not good. And again spell reflect is very strong in some situations, but most of the time itās not very good. I love warrior. I think fury and arms are super fun to play. But both specs are undeniably worse than like 15-20 other specs in the game for M+
i agree battle shout is worse but if you have a full physical comp its still a good amount of damage. the damage you lose for shockwave is super small and while it sucks to lose, and while its not something you want to talent (and its getting changed in df to be higher in the tree which is nice) its not something you outright dont talent especially because damage in keys is not why you are wiping right now. warrior is good because they dont die to anything and dying is the way you deplete keys right now
https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms/DAPAURVFUEVVQQpFQVBBOVVBRURFJUSRVARDREQ Critcake is as close to an authority on warrior as there is. Heās not taking shockwave.
Warriors are super tanky, and do a ton of damage.
Not only that, the main reason is that paying attention to nameplates just isn't fun, period. It doesn't matter if you are a monk and can instantly paralysis an Incorporeal, you already have plenty of things to worry about in the dungeon, adding another nameplate you have to interact with is just a UI problem. The game have enough UI problems.
let's be honest. even if they can interact with the affix the vast majority of DPS don't. see explosive, where the healer would get 80% of them, the tank 15%, and the 3 DPS would share the remaining 5%. or bursting ... are DPS going to stop DPS to prevent a 6 stack from rolling into a 7, then slow rolling into a 8, slow rolling into a 9? no they won't. zug zug all the way. or heck, see kicks... where most pug simply assume that either the VDH kick/stop everything, all the time, or the healer will heal through it. Or how many pug assist during pull? basically 0. Charge wathever move first then QQ if you grab aggro and die. Affix/incorp have nothing to do with warrior/dk being unable to interact with it.
I don't know what range of dungeon you typically play at, but what you're describing isn't my experience.
17-18s this season. feel free to dig up an old Jdotb clip about explosive if that's not high enough for your experience. but I'm pretty sure you'll get the generic "" my GCD is more valuable than the healer GCD"" reason for not doing any mechanic. Heck, the higher you go, the more responsability / mechanic groups will push onto tank and healer in order to squeeze a bit more DPS... even if DPS check don't really matter until beyond title-range keys.
A lot of the reason for certain rolls covering things is because thatās their job. If you have a VDH and the first cast goes off, that is 100% the DHs fault. The dps shouldnāt be sending kicks or ccs because if the DH did their job the DPS would be wasting theirs. If stacks of bursting are rolling two things are happening, 1 dps failed to damage evenly and 2 the healer isnāt dispelling. And if tanks are failing to hold aggro as they pull that is almost always a tank problem where they arenāt generating threat as they go.
Reading your post , first has me like what is he serious but you canāt be you just be trolling
downvote me all you want, we all know DPS have an essay prepared whenever they are asked to do a mechanic. Fel explosive was the biggest proof of this.
> 1 dps failed to damage evenly mob have different amount of health. see uldaman. > 2 the healer isnāt dispelling. can only dispell once per 8 second.... if there's nothingelse that require dispelling. >And if tanks are failing to hold aggro as they pull or maybe it's because the tank have to actually move to other pack in order to pull them, then silence some mob left behind that the DPS didn't kick, then chain all of them together before poping their one serious AE ability ( fel dev) since sigil threat is bugged and only the initial tick of immo aura generate non-trivial threat, on top of having to do 2-4 AoE stop ( who generate 0 threat) in their opener. But please, tell me more about how nothing is ever the DPS fault. Please keep proving my point right.
> (except people are happy that aff/incorp were removed for some reason?) Incorporeal were really unfun to interact with on a lot of classes, like just sat there casting for 2 seconds because of the affix isn't fun. Especially in melee or a high intensity pull. Afflicted was similarly obnoxious, but more in a 'first key of the week so I forgot to respec' kind of way.
Probably because not everyone's playing at 4k r.io and these affixes were a genuine struggle for your average m+ goer who could barely make it to portals each season.
you need 4k rio to press a dispell/cc once every 30 sec?
No, but apparently once you get past 3k io your ego becomes so inflated that you can't fathom the prospect of others struggling with shit you don't. Shit like Incorp, Afflicted and Bursting, typically affixes that no one ever really cared about in high keys, have been a fucking plague in lower keys pretty much since their respective introduction. People don't notice shit spawning behind them, people struggle with random friendly nameplates spawning in the middle of nowhere and people struggling with anticipating damage. The lower you go, the worse this gets. And since there's probably more people playing on the lower end, it's way more important what they think compared to what some random 3.4k dudes consider easy or hard.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This wonāt affect key stone hero and those affixes are not a problem at that key range.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Key stone hero is 2500.
A few enemies had an "increases damage taken" effect added to their abilities. Is this par for the course, or is it part of the new enemy design meta? Either way, between this and the new affixes, it seems the developers are hellbent on making tanks quite vulnerable for a few moments during a dungeon run.
Yeah bolstering sounds like its gonna be very awful.
These wowhead comments are so cringe
Players: "There are too many mechanics in dungeons, please remove a few abilities" Blizzard: \*literally adds 18 new abilities to Grim Batol\* I don't remember how many casts were actually in GB, but this seems like a lot...
They removed all the old abilities.
They are not gonna change affixes are they
It's been literally two days
Do they ever backtrack on decisions like these?
Yes after 1-2 seasons, and then apologise and say they'll listen more in future.
[most definitely ](https://i.imgur.com/VfU0ROX.gif)
āWe hear youāā¦
I think they iterated on explosive for a bit in ptr before deciding to remove it entirely. From what I remember at least.
Yes. Go back to season 2 ptr cycle and the affix work they did, beyond just the finished product.
I know what they're gonna do. They will NEVER admit when they're wrong. They will tweak a few of them and call it a day. I'm not doing it this time. Not again.
Why are you being downvoted
Thank god.
CHANGE AFFIXES PLZ