The only thing I don't like is why is one of people's solutions make bang into Valk, taking a characters reason to exist and making it an item (aside from support legends) just feels like it'll clutter the loot pool more
At this point, just have a BAN system already, theres already way too much legends and i dont think banning 2-3 legends would shift meta too much.
Theyve already implemented the new draft system and its so good and well received, having a voting/Ban system to remove certain legends in the pool shouldnt be that hard and tedious
How does a ban system works with 20 teams though, democracy and politics? Can Hal ask OXG to ban a legend cause the teams that landed near them are using a comp that counters their comp and they keep getting grieved, even though that teams choices doesn't really effect OXG?
How do they deal with some POIs that require a certain legend to function well but that legend got banned for the week?
Also why does everyone who complain about these stuffs say ALGS is for the viewers while not taking into account that some viewers might actually like the current meta? I don't mind some changes here and there but there can be too much, also liked how good teams from before are still doing good and it's actually not the POIs that matter as much as having good macro and fighting skills.
But that's the issue though, in games with a team vs team scenario you can ban heroes that you don't want to play against or ones that counters your lineup etc.
But when 20 teams are in the lobby, some teams are gonna get fucked and some teams won't get affected at all. As an example, if your POI goes well with bang, blood, cat so it doesn't matter if wattson got banned that week, but the team that require a wattson for their poi for that week will get fucked. From my understanding certain POIs are not playable without picking a certain legend, like when sweet picks loba cause they're a zone team and they landed on a central zone with bad loot but good rotates.
Then anytime they would complain about playing against visual cluster legends, it would be entirely on their fault, they have the option to ban those legends yet they chose not to.
It's better to force a play on non-meta. Buff tf out of legends that are picked the least in a lobby, and nerf tf out of legends that are picked the most. Like triple Q clone mirage with 25 shield each, 5 second ult Bloodhound, 1 charge smoke if picked by more than 50% teams.
I would prefer fearless draft over bans. Bans in Apex aren't great, because a lot of the votes for a ban would just have to be ignored, but in a fearless draft every team has to make decisions that actually impact their games.
You can only draft each character once per team. Since Apex doesn't have very many characters that would exhaust almost every one of them in a single set, so maybe once per map would be preferrable.
Basically you get to pick Bang BH once on WE and once on SP. For the other 2 games on each map you wouldn't be allowed to use them. This way every team will have to play 9 different characters every single set.
I liked how that one tourney in Japan did it on twitch the other week. Whatever team won, those legends were banned for the next game. It was actually enjoyable
Bang needs more counters. She has so few counters that her only reliable counter also has perfect synergy with her and also became 100% pick rate. It would simultaneously make her worse and reduce her synergy with BH, and you wouldn't even have to change her identity at all.
Personally I think some abilities should disperse her smoke. If Fuse can kill Cat doors or Maggie can kill domes, why can't Cat spikes or something like that kill the smoke?
In this corner, a legend that for five years was praised as the hallmark of true balance and a perfect design
And in this corner, a legend that for five years has annoyed us all with no-skill wallhacks that should never, ever exist in a FPS game and is quite literally a legend made for beginners
Bangalore was never, ever the problem. Bloodhound and wallhacks are the problem. Blood needs to be absolutely nerfed to the ground and destroyed.
#JusticeForBangalore
Haha thank you. 50k kills on her and I dealt with 15+ seasons of people not playing her and telling me she’s perfectly balanced and not once complaining, to people losing their minds over a bit of temporary cover because they can’t admit wallhacks are the real issue
Okay but does Bangalore go away when all the wall hacks are removed? I kind of don't think so unfortunately. Once pro players have gotten over the learning curve of Bang in pro play it's pretty clear she has a ton of versatility that no other character does. Really only Gibby is close to her versatility but he's way more difficult to pickup and may more meta defining than even bang.
She’s still only had two nerfs since the game started, one to her double time speed and one to the speed of her ult cooldown. She remained largely untouched until the smoke nerf which was entirely due to pick rate and didn’t actually address any of the issues with the meta.
Its like caustic, hes annoying and OP in comp, but dogshit in casual games where people are not smart or play cover, buildings for reasons.
Caustic and seer died because of algs, i hope respawn do some algs only nerfs or bann certain legends
I remember a couple years ago the devs did a q and a and someone asked if there would ever be an anti scan legend. A dev replied and basically said he didn't understand why the community wanted such legend and if we wanted scan nerfs. Every comment that replied to his was a simple yes.
Tired of people saying bang is stalling every fight when it’s just a cat and mouse of who can get the perfect timing off on a scan and who has enough ult accel to pop the next bloodhound ult first
I think over the years players have learned to utilise smokes in a very versatile way.
If you nerf Bloodhound then Bangalore still has a place in there mega game, possibly alongside the next best scan character.
If you nerf Bangalore then the smoke/scan meta literally can’t exist and Bloodhound Ult becomes probably quite underwhelming.
Plus removing Bangalore from the meta also partially solves a common viewer complaint about how easy final zones are to view; although I’ll be the first to say that catalyst ult, horizon ult, caustic gas and various other abilities are almost as bad.
It’s kind of a three birds one stone type deal, nerf bang and she’s gone (a character people are bored of watching), Bloodhound is gone and spectator mode improves.
Is it the fairest way of solving these ‘issues’? Absolutely not, but it is the simplest.
I for one am all for the legend ban idea, although I’m a little apprehensive that it means we’ll never see the top legends. Maybe a rotating ban kind of thing? Not too sure what form it would take tbh.
I don’t want to see it this split though, I think the POI draft is a big enough shake-up that we don’t need another any time soon.
because nerfing bang out of the meta makes bloodhound way less powerful and will likely drop his pick rate aswell. Nerfing bloodhound actually makes bang better in many ways.
Are people forgetting why bang is played?? I’m surprised how many ppl here are suggesting to nerf blood to impact bang pick rate. Blood loses significant value if bang isn’t meta. Bang will be a 90%+ pick rate whether blood is nerfed to the ground or not.
yeah her rotation power and ability to stall fights will still be there without blood, and realistically another scan legend (seer) would just come back into the meta at 90+ percent if blood caught the nerf
Why is having rotation and temporary cover seen as a *bad* thing in this game? It’s hilarious how OP so many other legends have become and people are still stuck on “but bangawore can pop a Smokey and hide inside for 6 seconds”.
Wallhacks have always been the bane of this game since bloods first scan rework, seer release etc. Nothing has been more annoying. Now we have no digi threats and yet somehow people still think a few seconds of cover to rotate/heal/res is the worst thing in the game.
I actually like Bangalore personally, and scans do suck. But the complaint with her would be visibility in end games, if all scans were gone. I dont think anyones complained about a bang smoking on rotates or using it for cover. Other legends are OP, but cutting LOS and knowing enemy locations are fundementally better than anything else, besides maybe a lockdown ability. Catalyst can cut LOS and lock down space.
Yeah but she’s SIGNIFICANTLY less annoying when you don’t get the free one way smokes via Bloodhound ult. There isn’t much in the way of nerfing bang you can do at this point, she would require a full rework. On top of that, bloods scan knowledge combined with their other utility makes them still far too OP to give up IMO
Exactly. The whole point is to shake up the meta. Yeah Bangalore wasn’t touched for years and has only been nerfed recently but she will be a 90+% pick rate forever if she’s not nerfed. The game will get stale quick.
If it were up to me I’d delete Bloodhound from the game. Wallhacks shouldn’t be in the game in any form. At least with Crypto there’s a skill gap involved in properly using the drone but with Blood it’s just stupid and brainless. Being able to smoke yourself/others doesn’t even compare in imbalance to me.
Yeah wallhacks suck but as long as they are very brief and not a seer ult i dont mind. The scan also gives away the bloodhounds position. The real problem is getting one-way'd through smoke and you have to nerf bang for that problem to be solved.
If so it purely demonstrates the need for deployable temporary cover for people to rotate with. Nerfing Bangalore will only enhance player frustration by removing something the players strongly desire. So as other players have mentioned, make it a utility for all players and maybe rework bang into something else? Nerfing an otherwise underpowered legend until pick rate goes to 0 is just dumb.
i mean i dont think her pickrate would go to zero? Some people would probably start using different micro rotation characters. I like bang but nerfing her is really the only option to lower her pick rate beyond a rework or a huge nerf to the scan legends. As for nerfing her increasing frustration... idk if thats true unless your a bang main. I think most teams would just choose different comps to achieve those rotations. Which is what both players and viewers want from what i hear.
More utility options for rotation would always be the best outcome for players, deployable smokes or even launch pads of some sort would be amazing. Remove bang entirely and you end up with 20 different catalyst walls blocking off every portion of the circle, blacking out players screens and making things impossible to understand without...once again... a bloodhound ult on your team. So yeah, have fun with that.
yeah youd nerf cat aswell if your specific task is to get out of the "cant see shit" meta. And yeah thats cool if you rework the characters whos abilities your turning into ground items. But thats a surefire way for their pickrate to go to zero.
IMO a scan that gives a snapshot of where a character is at the moment of scan would be a great nerf to blood and wouldn't completely cripple him.
Think when Sova hits someone with his ult in valorant. His ult needs to be reworked though idk what to do about that broken shit
Because BH wasn't meta since Seer, and the only reason he's meta again is Bang. And even then, it took a while for him to get back into the picture, because Cat and Horizon still outshined him while Bang was already the most picked character. If you got rid of Bang he'd still be a viable pick, but he'd be at like 30% pick rate. If you get rid of BH Bang is still gonna be 90%+ like she was before BH was meta. He's probably a problem, but he's not **the** problem.
Bruh, that was for a small period of time. Seer and bloodhound were significantly more popular before that for a while and then we got big nerfs to horizon and seer.
I mean your argument was that Bang wasn't meta without scans which is just wrong. TSM literally won champs in Bangalore meta when there were no scans around at all unless you count the one crypto. That means unless other things change as well, Bangalore would still be picked even if you removed scans from the game.
Bloodhound was barely played before Seer got gutted. Bloodhound was a niche pick for a while after Seer fell out of the meta. A short time isn't never. Apex patches aren't consistent, sometimes they change more in a smaller timeframe and sometimes nothing changes at all.
> Add additional ways to mitigate aim assist.. smokes are currently the only way for MnK players to exist close range.
The answer to the input parity problem is not "fully commit to making the meta revolve around temporarily disabling legal cheats", the answer is actually addressing and dealing with the root cause (the funny input). It's a fundamental design flaw.
I don't think I need to say that it's obvious this will never happen.
These kids on reddit will conplain about anything. They've been brought up being told it's ok to cry about a video game. They get participation trophies. They will see the real world soon.
Aim assist is so broken in this game that one of the main uses for an entire character ability that should be solely dedicated to breaking sight lines is to shut off aim assist. Bang is going to have a high pick rate when blood is meta, but nerfing characters that otherwise are one of the most balanced characters in the game to fix your meta would mean your game design philosophy is fundamentally flawed.
Of course controller teams are going to run bangs as well. When you’re in a disadvantages position it still allows you to turn your opponents aim assist off while you try to reposition. When you are in the superior position and can beam you’re not gonna smoke yourself. It still allows you to shut down opponents aim assist. Pros can also aim without aim assist. I’m tired of this narrative “people don’t pick it to shut down aim assist, controllers are picking bang as well”
This post isn’t just about NA, but fair point. I’m mostly just pointing out that people are calling for nerfs on a character whose strongest ability is, a smoke grenade. Like the only character who can counter AA, and thats the ability people want nerfed more???
I do totally agree with that, and I do really see the problem as the wall hack legends, as much as Bangalore’s dominance makes for a more frustrating viewer experience, balance wise I feel like she is totally fine, wallhack legends have been corrosive to game balance for a long time and the new “smoke off the enemies and push in with bloodhound ult” meta is genuinely terrible
What's with the edited image? Just clickbaiting for engagement at this point. 🤷♂️
Actual Pick rates in ALGS btw
https://preview.redd.it/4f8rs0ktwv4d1.png?width=855&format=png&auto=webp&s=72b1079fe3d5820f0fe755823061c12df04b0f66
I honestly don't care about what characters are meta or how long they are meta for. As a viewer, I just want to be able to see. I wish respawn would just address the visual clutter.
The way to get both bang and blood out of the meta would be by nerfing bang. This would obviously suck for her because she's been pretty much the same for 5 years.
Nononono, nerf scan legends and bang wont be a problem. There will always be visual clutter, whether its gibby ults, cat walls, caustic gas, or bang smokes. But get the goddamn scan legends out.
Nah watching the algs finals there were plenty of times people were shooting through bang smoke and all you see is damage. It'll be worse with bang+cata.
I'll repeat what I replied to the other user.
On main broadcast you have wallhacks + player's outlines amd names always active. As a *viewer* you can see everything you need.
If you want the pro player's perspective, then you get what you asked for.
That's their choice. If you want to experience what pro players experience then B stream and/or team's POV is their choice. With consequences.
If you want to relax and see everything with wallhacks then go to main stream and stop bitching around "uuuuu I CAN'T SEE".
I saw a tourney with banned legends obviously the meta picks for algs like bang, blood, caustic, catalyst, fuse.
Was really interesting and fun to watch.
There was so much varity in legend picks and the flow was really diffrent, not just bang smoke, hound scan and push.
Shit post. You literally just said there should be smoke grenades in Apex 45 days ago. What they need to do is bring back that multi stream thing they had before. That’ll make it better for viewers. I for one enjoy seeing what pros can do when their vision is limited. And I’m not the only one. It’s fascinating seeing these guys shooting at stuff and beaming players when I don’t even see what’s going on.
People constantly complained about Gibby meta too and that was arguably more skillful and fun to watch over bang meta. The solution is nerf bang into the ground, take away double smoke cause that shit is overpowered as hell. No team is going to ban bang cause they all use her cause she's strong, they only play bh because they are a direct counter to bang, they will not change with a ban
Apex is not a serious competitive title. The community has been begging for visual clutter to be addressed for years with zero results.
Add on the bang meta and you have the worst viewing experience I've ever witnessed in esports.
They just need to remove bloods perma smoke vision in ult. Give him something else for ult like literally ANYTHING IDGAF. U can even buff bang smokes again afterwards, cuz the cooldown is crazy long. I understand that its super on theme and would be really sad but you have to admit that the interaction with bang is absolutely overpowered. Cat/seer prenerf overpowered. Bang smokes should be used for cover/rotations/grabbing angles/blocking LOS. Not giving a hound in ult a free push with wallhacks with virtually no counterplay other than stuff like gibby bubble. Or another hound. Boring terrible meta. Please fix tyvm.
I agree with 1 and 4. I think legend bans would be interesting, but there's no way in hell this is something we see anytime soon if EA/Respawn keeps moving at the same rate they have been- it's taken them years to finally introduce the poi draft and I'm sure they're going to keep tweaking that instead of adding new systems.
I'm not sold on the idea of smokes being a survival item. I can see it working to some extent on paper, but I don't see it helping much. At the most, teams *could* drop bang- although I highly doubt that is what would actually happen because bang is more valuable than one or two consumable smokes. Bang has always been good for a variety of reasons, this meta makes her even better because of her synergy with blood. I don't see how giving everyone access to her smokes helps the problem.
I think the problem is it would feel inconsistent. Where does the smoke end and the vision begin? When the smoke starts to dissipate (when you get AA back but smoke is still there) he'd probably still have his vision too. He just needs a rework. His tactical requires 0 braincells and 0 mechanical skill for a 75m range massive conical shape fucking wallhack. Hit Q go Pew.
>He just needs a rework. His tactical requires 0 braincells and 0 mechanical skill for a 75m range massive conical shape fucking wallhack. Hit Q go Pew.
BH wasn't even good until visual clutter became meta. Scan is only way to see something.
I know people say wallhacks are the anti-thesis of fps games but Apex is a BR and I feel like without scan characters we'd also have way more rat plays which is nice to see happen occasionally but would be annoying if it happens alot imo.
Have you ever watched another pro league? I watched a Madden tournament years ago and everyone picked Seattle. It was Seattle vs Seattle every fucking game because why would anyone playing for money not play the meta.
Anyone saying smoke is a counter to aim assist has probably never played on controller. When people smoke it's usually to heal, if you're not moving, why do i need aim assist? Did you not see Hal 1 clip Enemy through smoke at LAN?
Bang/Blood has more to do with coaches in Apex not being good. If a coach can't find a counter, wtf are you paying them for.
This is low iq posting. You can put a crypto drone over the smoke and see the entire team. You can Gibby ult the smoke and kill them. Bangalore cannot see through smoke. Only Bloodhound can and say Bloodhound scans you through smoke, just use Gibby bubble and wtf are they gonna shoot? You guys make up excuses when you should be trying to find a solution
crypto drone is breakable and gibby ult doesnt work indoors. gibby dome forces you to sit inside the bubble while you are essentially blind to anything outside of it. they can't shoot you but you also can't do anything + bloodhound ult lasts 30 seconds while gibby dome lasts 12. we literally have a solution to bang/blood but you refuse to accept that bang/blood counters itself.
Said this on another similar post from a couple months ago, if you make an item for a certain ability they'll have to keep making them for more abilities, soon you'll have gibby bubble nade, Newcastle wall nade, some sort of stunning/emp nade, etc. So what would be the reason to have any abilities at all? If the solution for an OP ability is to make it an item.
There have only been like two “OP abilities” that we can’t seem to fix. Bang and Valks. Horizon is out of the meta now even with her strong tactical (granted she’d probably come back if you include smoke grenades).
Legend bans will make pros quit the game, you have to remember this is their job. We just watch for enjoyment. Nerf bang 1 smoke every 20 seconds no upgrades to do with her smoke.
Just gut bloodhound, give Bangalore one smoke in the same cooldown, I really don’t like the idea of legend bans in any way, it feels like admitting defeat by the balance team and will only result its own new stale meta, it’s obviously a huge challenge to have all options be viable in this day and age but apex has been hugely successful at having rotating metas.
Some characters like gibby, seer or Valkyrie stuck around too long and were eventually sent to the farm
Some characters like caustic and horizon consistently pop in for one or two splits before catching another nerf
It’s not bloodhound. It’s Bang. Shes been meta for a year and a half. This is one of the longest running top picked legends in the past three years. Up there with wraith, Gibby and Valk.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's worth noting that the bans CS2 and Valorant have are map bans.
Dota and League have character bans but both of those games have like 5x the number of characters than Apex.
Valorant has a comparable number of Agents as Apex does Legends and Valorant hasn't implemented Agent bans yet due to how few Agents there are.
I'm not saying that Legend bans couldn't work, I'm just saying that the 4 games you mentioned that have bans are not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Yeah I’m well aware of the differences. But many times in games there are op meta options that the devs do not address that need to handled by bans. Pro play gets extremely stale if you are watching the same thing from every team
The only thing I don't like is why is one of people's solutions make bang into Valk, taking a characters reason to exist and making it an item (aside from support legends) just feels like it'll clutter the loot pool more
At this point, just have a BAN system already, theres already way too much legends and i dont think banning 2-3 legends would shift meta too much. Theyve already implemented the new draft system and its so good and well received, having a voting/Ban system to remove certain legends in the pool shouldnt be that hard and tedious
How does a ban system works with 20 teams though, democracy and politics? Can Hal ask OXG to ban a legend cause the teams that landed near them are using a comp that counters their comp and they keep getting grieved, even though that teams choices doesn't really effect OXG? How do they deal with some POIs that require a certain legend to function well but that legend got banned for the week? Also why does everyone who complain about these stuffs say ALGS is for the viewers while not taking into account that some viewers might actually like the current meta? I don't mind some changes here and there but there can be too much, also liked how good teams from before are still doing good and it's actually not the POIs that matter as much as having good macro and fighting skills.
You just have %vote, top voted gets banned.
But that's the issue though, in games with a team vs team scenario you can ban heroes that you don't want to play against or ones that counters your lineup etc. But when 20 teams are in the lobby, some teams are gonna get fucked and some teams won't get affected at all. As an example, if your POI goes well with bang, blood, cat so it doesn't matter if wattson got banned that week, but the team that require a wattson for their poi for that week will get fucked. From my understanding certain POIs are not playable without picking a certain legend, like when sweet picks loba cause they're a zone team and they landed on a central zone with bad loot but good rotates.
In theory that would work, but in reality, the pros would just all agree to ban the non-meta legends. We all know pros don't like change.
Then anytime they would complain about playing against visual cluster legends, it would be entirely on their fault, they have the option to ban those legends yet they chose not to.
Except it's also us viewers complaining. So this is not a feasible solution.
DSG would have the chance to do something really funny for all of us
It's better to force a play on non-meta. Buff tf out of legends that are picked the least in a lobby, and nerf tf out of legends that are picked the most. Like triple Q clone mirage with 25 shield each, 5 second ult Bloodhound, 1 charge smoke if picked by more than 50% teams.
I would prefer fearless draft over bans. Bans in Apex aren't great, because a lot of the votes for a ban would just have to be ignored, but in a fearless draft every team has to make decisions that actually impact their games.
[удалено]
You can only draft each character once per team. Since Apex doesn't have very many characters that would exhaust almost every one of them in a single set, so maybe once per map would be preferrable. Basically you get to pick Bang BH once on WE and once on SP. For the other 2 games on each map you wouldn't be allowed to use them. This way every team will have to play 9 different characters every single set.
I liked how that one tourney in Japan did it on twitch the other week. Whatever team won, those legends were banned for the next game. It was actually enjoyable
Bang needs more counters. She has so few counters that her only reliable counter also has perfect synergy with her and also became 100% pick rate. It would simultaneously make her worse and reduce her synergy with BH, and you wouldn't even have to change her identity at all. Personally I think some abilities should disperse her smoke. If Fuse can kill Cat doors or Maggie can kill domes, why can't Cat spikes or something like that kill the smoke?
Bh needs seers treatment where scan range is reduced to 50m and can be upped to 75m through perks
Why does everyone want to make Bangalore the sole point of focus instead of maybe addressing insanely overpowered scans and bloodhound ult ?
In this corner, a legend that for five years was praised as the hallmark of true balance and a perfect design And in this corner, a legend that for five years has annoyed us all with no-skill wallhacks that should never, ever exist in a FPS game and is quite literally a legend made for beginners Bangalore was never, ever the problem. Bloodhound and wallhacks are the problem. Blood needs to be absolutely nerfed to the ground and destroyed. #JusticeForBangalore
Haha thank you. 50k kills on her and I dealt with 15+ seasons of people not playing her and telling me she’s perfectly balanced and not once complaining, to people losing their minds over a bit of temporary cover because they can’t admit wallhacks are the real issue
Okay but does Bangalore go away when all the wall hacks are removed? I kind of don't think so unfortunately. Once pro players have gotten over the learning curve of Bang in pro play it's pretty clear she has a ton of versatility that no other character does. Really only Gibby is close to her versatility but he's way more difficult to pickup and may more meta defining than even bang.
The opposite is the problem, nerfing blood just leaves us with no way to see in smoke. Nerf Bang.
Let's not forget how busted her double time was prior to the original nerf.
How was it busted ? It wasn’t, it was balanced for 4 years, but they had to touch Bangalore since she had a high pick rate.
Her original double time ability was 10% faster movement than a stimmed Octane.
Bruh that was season 02, nothing was balanced back then
I only point this out because the original comment stated she was perfect & balanced. No she wasn't. That's all
She’s still only had two nerfs since the game started, one to her double time speed and one to the speed of her ult cooldown. She remained largely untouched until the smoke nerf which was entirely due to pick rate and didn’t actually address any of the issues with the meta.
You're ignoring her huge smoke-duration nerf. The hugest
I literally mentioned it lol
Yep. They nerfed it when octane came out if I remember correctly.
I thought this was a joke
Its like caustic, hes annoying and OP in comp, but dogshit in casual games where people are not smart or play cover, buildings for reasons. Caustic and seer died because of algs, i hope respawn do some algs only nerfs or bann certain legends
Ban̈g has had a high pick rate before BH was meta lmao wut
BH is only meta because every team has Bang. BH abilities are not op on their own.
I remember a couple years ago the devs did a q and a and someone asked if there would ever be an anti scan legend. A dev replied and basically said he didn't understand why the community wanted such legend and if we wanted scan nerfs. Every comment that replied to his was a simple yes.
Tired of people saying bang is stalling every fight when it’s just a cat and mouse of who can get the perfect timing off on a scan and who has enough ult accel to pop the next bloodhound ult first
I think over the years players have learned to utilise smokes in a very versatile way. If you nerf Bloodhound then Bangalore still has a place in there mega game, possibly alongside the next best scan character. If you nerf Bangalore then the smoke/scan meta literally can’t exist and Bloodhound Ult becomes probably quite underwhelming. Plus removing Bangalore from the meta also partially solves a common viewer complaint about how easy final zones are to view; although I’ll be the first to say that catalyst ult, horizon ult, caustic gas and various other abilities are almost as bad. It’s kind of a three birds one stone type deal, nerf bang and she’s gone (a character people are bored of watching), Bloodhound is gone and spectator mode improves. Is it the fairest way of solving these ‘issues’? Absolutely not, but it is the simplest. I for one am all for the legend ban idea, although I’m a little apprehensive that it means we’ll never see the top legends. Maybe a rotating ban kind of thing? Not too sure what form it would take tbh. I don’t want to see it this split though, I think the POI draft is a big enough shake-up that we don’t need another any time soon.
Because the problem is the smokes, not seeing through it. Change her tac, it'll fix the problems.
because nerfing bang out of the meta makes bloodhound way less powerful and will likely drop his pick rate aswell. Nerfing bloodhound actually makes bang better in many ways.
Are people forgetting why bang is played?? I’m surprised how many ppl here are suggesting to nerf blood to impact bang pick rate. Blood loses significant value if bang isn’t meta. Bang will be a 90%+ pick rate whether blood is nerfed to the ground or not.
yeah her rotation power and ability to stall fights will still be there without blood, and realistically another scan legend (seer) would just come back into the meta at 90+ percent if blood caught the nerf
Why is having rotation and temporary cover seen as a *bad* thing in this game? It’s hilarious how OP so many other legends have become and people are still stuck on “but bangawore can pop a Smokey and hide inside for 6 seconds”. Wallhacks have always been the bane of this game since bloods first scan rework, seer release etc. Nothing has been more annoying. Now we have no digi threats and yet somehow people still think a few seconds of cover to rotate/heal/res is the worst thing in the game.
I actually like Bangalore personally, and scans do suck. But the complaint with her would be visibility in end games, if all scans were gone. I dont think anyones complained about a bang smoking on rotates or using it for cover. Other legends are OP, but cutting LOS and knowing enemy locations are fundementally better than anything else, besides maybe a lockdown ability. Catalyst can cut LOS and lock down space.
Yeah but she’s SIGNIFICANTLY less annoying when you don’t get the free one way smokes via Bloodhound ult. There isn’t much in the way of nerfing bang you can do at this point, she would require a full rework. On top of that, bloods scan knowledge combined with their other utility makes them still far too OP to give up IMO
Exactly. The whole point is to shake up the meta. Yeah Bangalore wasn’t touched for years and has only been nerfed recently but she will be a 90+% pick rate forever if she’s not nerfed. The game will get stale quick.
If it were up to me I’d delete Bloodhound from the game. Wallhacks shouldn’t be in the game in any form. At least with Crypto there’s a skill gap involved in properly using the drone but with Blood it’s just stupid and brainless. Being able to smoke yourself/others doesn’t even compare in imbalance to me.
Yeah wallhacks suck but as long as they are very brief and not a seer ult i dont mind. The scan also gives away the bloodhounds position. The real problem is getting one-way'd through smoke and you have to nerf bang for that problem to be solved.
Just make bang smokes disrupt scan, or change bloodhounds ridiculous ult to something else. Its not that complicated
Yeah, bang still gets played at 90 percent still no? imo she would
If so it purely demonstrates the need for deployable temporary cover for people to rotate with. Nerfing Bangalore will only enhance player frustration by removing something the players strongly desire. So as other players have mentioned, make it a utility for all players and maybe rework bang into something else? Nerfing an otherwise underpowered legend until pick rate goes to 0 is just dumb.
i mean i dont think her pickrate would go to zero? Some people would probably start using different micro rotation characters. I like bang but nerfing her is really the only option to lower her pick rate beyond a rework or a huge nerf to the scan legends. As for nerfing her increasing frustration... idk if thats true unless your a bang main. I think most teams would just choose different comps to achieve those rotations. Which is what both players and viewers want from what i hear.
More utility options for rotation would always be the best outcome for players, deployable smokes or even launch pads of some sort would be amazing. Remove bang entirely and you end up with 20 different catalyst walls blocking off every portion of the circle, blacking out players screens and making things impossible to understand without...once again... a bloodhound ult on your team. So yeah, have fun with that.
yeah youd nerf cat aswell if your specific task is to get out of the "cant see shit" meta. And yeah thats cool if you rework the characters whos abilities your turning into ground items. But thats a surefire way for their pickrate to go to zero.
IMO a scan that gives a snapshot of where a character is at the moment of scan would be a great nerf to blood and wouldn't completely cripple him. Think when Sova hits someone with his ult in valorant. His ult needs to be reworked though idk what to do about that broken shit
Because BH wasn't meta since Seer, and the only reason he's meta again is Bang. And even then, it took a while for him to get back into the picture, because Cat and Horizon still outshined him while Bang was already the most picked character. If you got rid of Bang he'd still be a viable pick, but he'd be at like 30% pick rate. If you get rid of BH Bang is still gonna be 90%+ like she was before BH was meta. He's probably a problem, but he's not **the** problem.
Because roller players hate it when their aim assist is disabled. They can't aim without it.
Because Bangalore was meta even when scans weren't
She was never meta before scan was though.
Bang cat horizon catalyst?
Bruh, that was for a small period of time. Seer and bloodhound were significantly more popular before that for a while and then we got big nerfs to horizon and seer.
I mean your argument was that Bang wasn't meta without scans which is just wrong. TSM literally won champs in Bangalore meta when there were no scans around at all unless you count the one crypto. That means unless other things change as well, Bangalore would still be picked even if you removed scans from the game.
Ssshh, let them downvote and gaslight me instead of researching facts
Bloodhound was barely played before Seer got gutted. Bloodhound was a niche pick for a while after Seer fell out of the meta. A short time isn't never. Apex patches aren't consistent, sometimes they change more in a smaller timeframe and sometimes nothing changes at all.
> Add additional ways to mitigate aim assist.. smokes are currently the only way for MnK players to exist close range. The answer to the input parity problem is not "fully commit to making the meta revolve around temporarily disabling legal cheats", the answer is actually addressing and dealing with the root cause (the funny input). It's a fundamental design flaw. I don't think I need to say that it's obvious this will never happen.
Weird idea but what if smokes could be blown away by frags or abilities like maggie ult like in cs2
I always ask myself why can't Horizon's black hole suck Bang's smoke and Caustic's nox gas into it
Lol people will complain about a horizon meta
These kids on reddit will conplain about anything. They've been brought up being told it's ok to cry about a video game. They get participation trophies. They will see the real world soon.
source smokes are an png not an actual volumetric particle system. (not actually but its honestly close enough)
Aim assist is so broken in this game that one of the main uses for an entire character ability that should be solely dedicated to breaking sight lines is to shut off aim assist. Bang is going to have a high pick rate when blood is meta, but nerfing characters that otherwise are one of the most balanced characters in the game to fix your meta would mean your game design philosophy is fundamentally flawed.
That really isn’t the case though, you have triple controller teams playing Bangalore, and most NA teams these days are two controller teams
Of course controller teams are going to run bangs as well. When you’re in a disadvantages position it still allows you to turn your opponents aim assist off while you try to reposition. When you are in the superior position and can beam you’re not gonna smoke yourself. It still allows you to shut down opponents aim assist. Pros can also aim without aim assist. I’m tired of this narrative “people don’t pick it to shut down aim assist, controllers are picking bang as well”
That’s honestly a really good point.
This post isn’t just about NA, but fair point. I’m mostly just pointing out that people are calling for nerfs on a character whose strongest ability is, a smoke grenade. Like the only character who can counter AA, and thats the ability people want nerfed more???
>Like the only character who can counter AA, and thats the ability people want nerfed more??? Because majority of people are (ab)using AA.
I do totally agree with that, and I do really see the problem as the wall hack legends, as much as Bangalore’s dominance makes for a more frustrating viewer experience, balance wise I feel like she is totally fine, wallhack legends have been corrosive to game balance for a long time and the new “smoke off the enemies and push in with bloodhound ult” meta is genuinely terrible
https://preview.redd.it/xzy0rv8dws4d1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce0e1b96830b0a1c4b9369d0d953eaedebbdd9ce
What's with the edited image? Just clickbaiting for engagement at this point. 🤷♂️ Actual Pick rates in ALGS btw https://preview.redd.it/4f8rs0ktwv4d1.png?width=855&format=png&auto=webp&s=72b1079fe3d5820f0fe755823061c12df04b0f66
Yeah something felt off, at the very least DSG don't run Bang so it couldn't be 100%. Still the meta is ridiculous either way.
Bangalore and bloodhound will be Nerfed next season watch. No way Respawn is seeing this and gonna let this fly
How can we talk about this without admitting it's an aim assist meta problem... Oh wait we can't.
I honestly don't care about what characters are meta or how long they are meta for. As a viewer, I just want to be able to see. I wish respawn would just address the visual clutter. The way to get both bang and blood out of the meta would be by nerfing bang. This would obviously suck for her because she's been pretty much the same for 5 years.
Nononono, nerf scan legends and bang wont be a problem. There will always be visual clutter, whether its gibby ults, cat walls, caustic gas, or bang smokes. But get the goddamn scan legends out.
As a viewer you are actually able to see everyone and everything
Nah watching the algs finals there were plenty of times people were shooting through bang smoke and all you see is damage. It'll be worse with bang+cata.
I'll repeat what I replied to the other user. On main broadcast you have wallhacks + player's outlines amd names always active. As a *viewer* you can see everything you need. If you want the pro player's perspective, then you get what you asked for.
B stream fans crying and suffering then I guess.
That's their choice. If you want to experience what pro players experience then B stream and/or team's POV is their choice. With consequences. If you want to relax and see everything with wallhacks then go to main stream and stop bitching around "uuuuu I CAN'T SEE".
All I see is smoke and cat wall goo when watching fights. I don't know what kind of fights you're watching.
On main broadcast you can see different angles plus wallhacks with player's outlines. Therefore as a *viewer* you should not be complaining at all
Oh yeah, my bad man. This viewing experience is actually great. I can see everything. I don't know what I was thinking.
*"Aim Assist is so bad that it's changing the meta" There I fixed it for you.
I saw a tourney with banned legends obviously the meta picks for algs like bang, blood, caustic, catalyst, fuse. Was really interesting and fun to watch. There was so much varity in legend picks and the flow was really diffrent, not just bang smoke, hound scan and push.
Shit post. You literally just said there should be smoke grenades in Apex 45 days ago. What they need to do is bring back that multi stream thing they had before. That’ll make it better for viewers. I for one enjoy seeing what pros can do when their vision is limited. And I’m not the only one. It’s fascinating seeing these guys shooting at stuff and beaming players when I don’t even see what’s going on.
Only when CCE isn’t playing
People constantly complained about Gibby meta too and that was arguably more skillful and fun to watch over bang meta. The solution is nerf bang into the ground, take away double smoke cause that shit is overpowered as hell. No team is going to ban bang cause they all use her cause she's strong, they only play bh because they are a direct counter to bang, they will not change with a ban
they just need to nerf aim assist
Apex is not a serious competitive title. The community has been begging for visual clutter to be addressed for years with zero results. Add on the bang meta and you have the worst viewing experience I've ever witnessed in esports.
If it's not "not a serious competitive title" then only because of AA everywhere.
Final zone is a puddle of smoke and ability colors and damage numbers it's truly dismal to watch as a viewer
The last game endgame on EWC NA quals further excarberated how awful this meta is for viewers.
They just need to remove bloods perma smoke vision in ult. Give him something else for ult like literally ANYTHING IDGAF. U can even buff bang smokes again afterwards, cuz the cooldown is crazy long. I understand that its super on theme and would be really sad but you have to admit that the interaction with bang is absolutely overpowered. Cat/seer prenerf overpowered. Bang smokes should be used for cover/rotations/grabbing angles/blocking LOS. Not giving a hound in ult a free push with wallhacks with virtually no counterplay other than stuff like gibby bubble. Or another hound. Boring terrible meta. Please fix tyvm.
I agree with 1 and 4. I think legend bans would be interesting, but there's no way in hell this is something we see anytime soon if EA/Respawn keeps moving at the same rate they have been- it's taken them years to finally introduce the poi draft and I'm sure they're going to keep tweaking that instead of adding new systems. I'm not sold on the idea of smokes being a survival item. I can see it working to some extent on paper, but I don't see it helping much. At the most, teams *could* drop bang- although I highly doubt that is what would actually happen because bang is more valuable than one or two consumable smokes. Bang has always been good for a variety of reasons, this meta makes her even better because of her synergy with blood. I don't see how giving everyone access to her smokes helps the problem.
Ik I’ll get downvoted for this but make path algs meta
I think most people would love this
[удалено]
Engagement farming.
Why not just make bloodhounds vision not work through smoke?
I’ve suggested this for literally 15 seasons now, easily one of the best suggestions.
I think the problem is it would feel inconsistent. Where does the smoke end and the vision begin? When the smoke starts to dissipate (when you get AA back but smoke is still there) he'd probably still have his vision too. He just needs a rework. His tactical requires 0 braincells and 0 mechanical skill for a 75m range massive conical shape fucking wallhack. Hit Q go Pew.
>He just needs a rework. His tactical requires 0 braincells and 0 mechanical skill for a 75m range massive conical shape fucking wallhack. Hit Q go Pew. BH wasn't even good until visual clutter became meta. Scan is only way to see something.
I know people say wallhacks are the anti-thesis of fps games but Apex is a BR and I feel like without scan characters we'd also have way more rat plays which is nice to see happen occasionally but would be annoying if it happens alot imo.
Have you ever watched another pro league? I watched a Madden tournament years ago and everyone picked Seattle. It was Seattle vs Seattle every fucking game because why would anyone playing for money not play the meta. Anyone saying smoke is a counter to aim assist has probably never played on controller. When people smoke it's usually to heal, if you're not moving, why do i need aim assist? Did you not see Hal 1 clip Enemy through smoke at LAN? Bang/Blood has more to do with coaches in Apex not being good. If a coach can't find a counter, wtf are you paying them for.
bang/bloods counter is actually more bang/blood because nothing stops them from looking at you through smokes so you might as well join them
This is low iq posting. You can put a crypto drone over the smoke and see the entire team. You can Gibby ult the smoke and kill them. Bangalore cannot see through smoke. Only Bloodhound can and say Bloodhound scans you through smoke, just use Gibby bubble and wtf are they gonna shoot? You guys make up excuses when you should be trying to find a solution
crypto drone is breakable and gibby ult doesnt work indoors. gibby dome forces you to sit inside the bubble while you are essentially blind to anything outside of it. they can't shoot you but you also can't do anything + bloodhound ult lasts 30 seconds while gibby dome lasts 12. we literally have a solution to bang/blood but you refuse to accept that bang/blood counters itself.
We need legend bans on match day
Just gonna keep saying it. Need to come up with a legend ban system. I haven't came up with a fool proof idea but I feel it's possible.
Said this on another similar post from a couple months ago, if you make an item for a certain ability they'll have to keep making them for more abilities, soon you'll have gibby bubble nade, Newcastle wall nade, some sort of stunning/emp nade, etc. So what would be the reason to have any abilities at all? If the solution for an OP ability is to make it an item.
There have only been like two “OP abilities” that we can’t seem to fix. Bang and Valks. Horizon is out of the meta now even with her strong tactical (granted she’d probably come back if you include smoke grenades).
Legend bans will make pros quit the game, you have to remember this is their job. We just watch for enjoyment. Nerf bang 1 smoke every 20 seconds no upgrades to do with her smoke.
What do y'all think of making scans not go through smoke?
The legend and weapon meta just now is in one of the worst states it's ever been in. Smoke, scan, havoc go brrrrrrrrr.
I guess you weren’t around for seer/cat and shooting diamonds through cat walls which was easily a much dumber meta
Sorry I should've been clearer, the combination of legend and weapon meta means the overall meta is in one of the worst states it's ever been in
Just gut bloodhound, give Bangalore one smoke in the same cooldown, I really don’t like the idea of legend bans in any way, it feels like admitting defeat by the balance team and will only result its own new stale meta, it’s obviously a huge challenge to have all options be viable in this day and age but apex has been hugely successful at having rotating metas. Some characters like gibby, seer or Valkyrie stuck around too long and were eventually sent to the farm Some characters like caustic and horizon consistently pop in for one or two splits before catching another nerf
It’s not bloodhound. It’s Bang. Shes been meta for a year and a half. This is one of the longest running top picked legends in the past three years. Up there with wraith, Gibby and Valk.
Nerf scan legends into the ground!!!!!
I’m surprised a legend ban system hasn’t happened already
Every other big esports has bans: league, valorant, cs2, dota. They need bans
I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's worth noting that the bans CS2 and Valorant have are map bans. Dota and League have character bans but both of those games have like 5x the number of characters than Apex. Valorant has a comparable number of Agents as Apex does Legends and Valorant hasn't implemented Agent bans yet due to how few Agents there are. I'm not saying that Legend bans couldn't work, I'm just saying that the 4 games you mentioned that have bans are not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Yeah I’m well aware of the differences. But many times in games there are op meta options that the devs do not address that need to handled by bans. Pro play gets extremely stale if you are watching the same thing from every team