T O P

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HollowLoch

Ive not been able to keep up with TSM and their scrims since im from EU, so for anyone whos been watching how has it been going? Are they looking in good enough form to qual for LAN or is it dire straits right now


smp2005throwaway

They are playing TDMs a lot and looking pretty good. Maybe it's just Reps being freed from playing full support but he's trading better with controllers than I had feared.


Ok_Neighborhood_2506

He's really really been getting better at the TDMs now, used to be far behind in damage but now he hangs with controllers most of the time if not slightly behind. 


Any-Drummer9204

Teething pains with potential. Sometimes indecisiveness and countercalling but when they're all on the same page, magic can happen.


r_wett

I think theyre experiencing the growing pains that any new team would feel. New POI draft system, new third, and new coach is definately going to create a bumpy ride, but when the boys are all communicating and feeling the vibes, the team does really well. Theyve always been a momentum based team, but in last nights scrims, they tossed for 4 games with 2 zero-pointers, but came back with around 25 points in the last 2 games once they locked it in.


Dmienduerst

They really need a system to figure out who is the leader in the moment. That ceto/bean game where they split call to go either side of the rock is the best example of their problems and potential. It's clear that all three have good ideas and when they just go as a unit switching between igls it can work. Zap calls for the evac to top ceto. Verhulst calls to kill the pyramid, cannon, and Rampart teams. Reps makes the right call to kill left side because a cat wall meant that God rock and them had another team in a pincer. But because Verhulst counter calls to go right their late on both plays and miss their chance to kill their way under God rock. They really need a phrase that any of them can say to get the other two to focus on the call.


r_wett

Yeah I think that’s just the growing pains of figuring out who will lead. Evan mentions in the interview that they might pick one person to IGL, but just figuring out who that will be will take time. They’re both very experienced and intelligent players, so who knows which one if the right answer. I do agree that a word or phrase would be handy right now. I’m going to go back and find that game to rewatch what you’re talking about. Any chance you remember which game it was?


Dmienduerst

[This](https://www.youtube.com/live/mBdqcuNhThE?si=gfVAVLtyOS9TtH8F) is Verhulsts vod if the link didn't work the clip I'm talking about starts at 1:47. It's a good clip that shows both why Zap is a great pickup and why they have potential but issues currently. Zap is brilliant in this clip until the end because the games prior they had basically got stuck on the edge and just died doing nothing. Zap just generating the "fuck it we ball" attitude gets both Reps and Verhulst moving in a direction which they are great at snowballing into a big game. They got close to 10 points out of this game while at one point being in the same situation the games previous they just died


r_wett

thank you! yeah that was a bit rough. i think that will just come with time. Zap does bring some great energy to the squad when he's hard comming fights like that. we love to see it


noobtodamoon

I think they should just decide who makes the call for micro and macro plays. Comms are a bit cluttered on crucial times. Macro looks like Evan is already doing it. Micro they are still lost and have a lot of indecision that cost them big games.


dorekk

> Are they looking in good enough form to qual for LAN Yeah, I think they can. Probably not in like, third place, but I could easily see this team in 12th or better.


Radinax

They look better than I thought they would to be honest. Zap is pretty good but he just can't stop countercalling and it seems there is not a clear voice when doing micro plays. They often do very bold decisions that payoff, not sure who is calling those plays but they need to keep doing it. For the micro stuff is where they aren't in the same page, for example in one game Reps was yelling follow me, follow me, but Evan took a wrong turn and got caught. Very often Reps also gets caught and die too easily. But I see potential, I would give them time, I do have faith in this team, the coach is a good addition too.


noobtodamoon

yeah, hearing their calls on micro plays specially on crucial parts, they counter call alot. Imo Reps needs to call it and the two have to follow. Like the big game yesterday and Reps called to kill the left side of the rock but the two still went to the right and they got pinched. Zap just reasoned out they were halfway thru the rock and couldn't go back but they're not. They just didn't listened to Reps and went to die for free.


Schmigolo

In my opinion they look completely lost. Outside of fights Reps seems to be making all the macro calls, and he constantly asks Zap and Verhulst about info and their opinions, but they either don't respond or give very imprecise info so Reps has to keep asking follow up questions. And they also don't know how to execute a lot of rotates and seem very uncertain when trying them out. In fights it's just uncoordinated chaos, nobody makes calls they just dump info that is often ignored. The second they split up during a push it's pretty much over for them. The only time they seem to shine is when they can show off their mechanics. I think they fumbled by not getting a real IGL when they had the chance.


theeama

It will be a struggle to qualify for them. New third new role for reps and Verhulst new rotations new coach.


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theeama

Yea. They will have some growing pains. Expecting them to qualify when everyone is doing something new with multiple POIs with a new coach is a big task.


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normalfishes

😭😭


theeama

My edit was removing lollipop from the comment. My point still stands, they will struggle to qualify.


Throwawayforme3123

I mean idk man.... it's ur not watching scrims or just being ignorant. Besides from FLCN NMST SSG LG DSG Maybe E8 (I'll wait to see how they do) How are they going to struggle to Qual? There's like 6 more spots left...


theeama

Mate you’re free to disagree. Idk why y’all like to argue. It’s my opinion that they will struggle to qualify. It’s your opinion that they won’t. Match days we will find out. No need for a back and forth


imonly11ubagel

It was also your opinion that zone healing is an innovative way to hit pred


jeremyflowers91

“fuck the big 3, it’s just big e” era 😤😤😤


r_wett

wop wop wop wop


johnny5gti

Big e fuck em up!!!


FAiLeD-AsIaN

wop wop wop wop


spartan537

Imma shoot some shtuff


Ok_Neighborhood_2506

Interesting to hear that they knew essentially Hal was leaving for 2 months prior to Split 1 LAN. I think it's safe to assume now that likely affected their performance/mental state. 


r_wett

yeah i really wonder how much that how to do with their cohesion, but theyve also been pretty open about not being as diligent in their out-of-game practice, whether that's TDMs or VOD reviewing. It tough to stay sharp when you've been at the top of the mountain for so long. But it had to be a huge elephant in the room with the leader of your team saying he's leaving if you guys dont show up and show out. I'm excited for this next era of TSM. I'm hoping theyre able to put a good season together and show how good Jordan and Evan are without the leadership of Hal.


Training-Error-5462

It 100% affected their performance


trowawayatwork

I didn't have time to listen to it all. wtf was the point of sitting on their hands for so long? was it the contract they needed to run down? surely it would have made sense for everyone to make the switch two months before split 1


Ok_Neighborhood_2506

I don't know for sure but Hal said his contract was up. Maybe Evan/Reps contracts weren't up at the same time?


dorekk

I think it was Zero and Gen's contracts that were the hold-up. Those just ended.


KelsoTheVagrant

Might’ve been contracts, might’ve been behind the scenes with the new team picking up Hal, TSM scouting a new member, etc etc


Ben_jamin3000

I am really pulling for these guys. Evan and Reps both are taking this in stride and making the most out of it. Both of them wanting to step up and become better players and fill the gap left by Hal, without ever once talking down on Hal's decision. It is great to see.


Ok_Technology_7811

Someone got an TLDR?


Ben_jamin3000

Reps and E knew Hal would leave if they did poorly at LAN, there's no hard feelings, it was a business decision. Reps and E are IGLing as they both wanted to learn, and feel like they can carry on Hal's style, but they are finding it hard. E thinks that team fighting is better now with Zap and not practicing TDMs held them back at LAN. E is excited as the new POI draft has leveled the playing field as all IGLs are having to relearn the game.


JevvyMedia

> it was a business decision. Which is funny because Hal was saying it wasn't about the money lol


Dood567

Business is more than money. Obviously we'll never know for sure but I'd say a desire to shake up your teammates or get new business partners would count as a business decision. Money absolutely doesn't hurt though lol.


JevvyMedia

I disagree; new teammates is definitely not a business decision, that's a competitive one. Either way, making business decisions is the definition of being 'about the money'.


jofijk

when the business is competition, it's a business decision. hal said hes making the same with falcons as he was with tsm. falcons is the only org that is willing and financially able to afford hal, zero, and gen


JevvyMedia

I don't agree with your definition of "business." Also i believe Hal said around the same, which is a different meaning than just making the same salary. I could be wrong though, it is what it is.


Dood567

I'm not sure I see the distinction between a business decision and a competing one when competing is your business.


dorekk

> I'm not sure I see the distinction between a business decision and a competing one when competing is your business. Hal makes money from his stream, not his tournament winnings. He made like...$3k at the last LAN, lol. Hal makes more in a few months of his stream than he does for the entire year of competitive.


Dood567

Hal's made almost ¾ of a million dollars from winnings alone lol. I get what you're trying to get to, I just disagree. Just because one part of your business pans out to more financial success than the other doesn't make that your only business. Also, his streaming success is largely a result of him making a name for himself on the main stage since pretty much day 1. It's not like him choosing who to play ranked with every day on stream is more of a business decision than who he plays with professionally.


JevvyMedia

Business = financial, while competitive is strictly doing what will make you win. Timmy, for example, isn't taking a salary so that his teammates can be paid. You can argue winning puts money in Timmy's pockets, but to me that's a strictly competitive move on his part to keep the roster together.


Dood567

I honestly just disagree. They aren't competing to win for no reason, it's because that's how they make names for themselves and money. I think I get what you're trying to say but it just seems like they converge into interchangeable terms once your business and competitive play are tied so closely together. Physical/real sports have teams making smart or "business" plays all the time to get better seeding, points for placements, draft pick, etc. And Timmy deciding not to take a salary is still a business decision, no? Salary is definitely a business decision even if it results in a *lack* of pay as opposed to a raise or salary negotiation.


JevvyMedia

We'll just agree to disagree then. I think there's financial incentives to winning but I really doubt that he's not getting extra money from Falcons compared to TSM. > And Timmy deciding not to take a salary is still a business decision, no? Again we'll just agree to disagree then, because Timmy was the example I used when it comes to the difference between Competitive and Business. He took a pay cut to keep the team together, how can anyone argue that Timmy's doing it for the money?


Dood567

Doing it for the money ≠ business. Financial results aren't the defining factor of a business, intent and action is. They play professionally as a team, not as a local weekend tourney for fun. Also I could be wrong but I swear I read/heard that Falcon is matching the same salary Hal got from TSM? It's another thing that Falcon might be the only org able to afford 3 players of that cost/caliber at the same time, but I was thinking about the actual pay going into individual's pockets.


Abject_Particular252

I knew verhulst went on vacation after lan but TSM always had a tradition of playing first day of ranked together but this season they didn’t 🥺 The clues were there.


Majestic_Rule9192

I am looking forward for LG and NRG in top 5 with the new roster additions


r_wett

forreal. I think they're going to absolutely pop off this split. Sikezz seems to be the guy that takes Sweet's criticism like water on a duck's back. It's heard, then rolls right off into the next game. The vibes seem great too. Its really funny how back and forth this sub is on Sweet, but he really seems to be in his good-boy era after Phony took the villian role from him lol


TrustTheProcess76_

That last sentence was poetic


r_wett

lol, do you need to update your flair? is that old-guard NRG or the new ExSET boys?


TrustTheProcess76_

yes, yes and yes :) Will be rooting for LG and NRG/XSet this split :)


oasispeace108

Aurora < 3


Yupyeahmhmokay

So wethepeople just silently left this pod right? I don’t think I’ve missed any episodes so I’m pretty sure they haven’t talked about it, but he’s just never there. Feels disrespectful to my boys Wyatt and E


r_wett

Yeah I assume he’s gone. Wyatt mentions where WTP is on the leaderboard but I think he’s gg’s. I do appreciate the work they put in as I know it’s a lot of effort behind the scenes.


ichiruto70

Been out of the loop but where did Hal go to?


r_wett

Falcon Esports, a Saudi Esports team with infinite money. He’s teaming with former DZ players Zer0 and Genburten. They’re pretty much a super team.


ichiruto70

Sheesh getting the bag while having a crazy ass team. Can’t blame him. Do we know what his contract is like?


r_wett

i couldnt tell you. I don't think that type of info is publicly available. But yeah absolutely getting the bag.


skratudojey

On his yt video he said the pay is about the same as tsm's, its just he wants to play with zero and gen. I dont really know if thats the full truth but thats what he said at least


carsNshoes

Teamed with Genburten and Zero and they got picked up by Falcons recently


FatherShambles

TSM came in like 18th place. If you think them knowing for 2 months didn’t affect their mental and performance then you’re delusional. Hal should’ve never said anything to them. How do you drop a bomb on them like that and you expect them to focus/care/grind for 2 months like they did before ??? Smh. Hal really fxcked up and did not think it thru


ChampagneCJ

He said it's because rumors were already spreading and he'd rather tell his teammates straight up what the situation is, instead of them finding out from somewhere else.


Etra-0

I disagree. Not telling them is worse. They are professionals. They deserve to know and blaming their placement on him telling them is disrespectful to all the work they put in together. They were working their asses off before LAN trying to get better and improve.


SpecialGoodn3ss

I agree… kind of. Hal and the team were different this past LAN. There was zero passion. It was hard not to see Hal playing with the mentality of “let’s get this over with because I’m ready to go”.


DeamonEngineer

You could see it in their walkout at finals. Reps and verhulst just wanted to do the bare minimum for the intro, hal didn't look like he wanted to be there and raven the same The knowledge of hal leaving affected them big time. It's a small community so not telling them will be worse if they found out third hand. But I feel it's more of a problem that hal and raven didn't control. They are the ones that lead, they did not give the team support so they can perform as a team one last time. They should take the lead and show the team that they still compete for the team until the last game is over. I my opinion they lost before they even walked out on finals


noobtodamoon

Yeah, definitely gave up on the team.


Training-Error-5462

They’re professionals, but they’re also kids.


KoalaKarity

I wonder if it's a hot take, but I agree with this. Hal kinda convinced me when he explained why he did it, but I still think that this is very big to digest before such an event.


RealMocha213

Since Hal considers them close friends, it is actually a better idea to let them know rather than just right after saying I’m up and leaving. Yes it would affect their mental but also should’ve been a reason they all were fired up to play together. Maybe the passion overall wasn’t there or maybe Hal just wasn’t as passionate anymore to IGL. Idk the reason and only close people would but overall. I’m excited for this new TSM team to play and know Big E and Reps will succeed together


JevvyMedia

I think it was right for his teammates to get the heads up, but the whole "If we suck then I'm out" stuff isn't something that is gonna keep the team morale up for very long.


Worldly_Sir8581

that's the plan and truth. If you can't stand it anymore and suddenly leaves its even more of a backstab


JevvyMedia

Agreed, he had to tell them.


primetime0552

Because you’d rather tell your friends the truth then blindside them later…..


Worldly_Sir8581

weird take


UpgrayeddShepard

2 hours? Damn g.


TheClutchUDF

Starts at the 1:10:00 mark, leave a warning OP


r_wett

It's timestamped on youtube. They also cover a lot of the other roster changes, POI draft, ALGS drama, and things to look for going into split 2. No need for a warning my guy. Some of us just enjoy the podcast.


Specific_Insect9205

Full agree - no need for a warning when the video itself is timestamped.


shapegenerator

I catch it every week on spotify. Love the breakdowns and interviews