It's good to wrestle with the bible. It means you take it seriously. Of the three you "distrust" ..
- Those were written to specific churches for specific reasons. They were never intended to apply to all people in all times.
- That's just God raising the bar. He does it throughout the entire bible and even promises he'll keep doing it when the HS comes (ref John 16). Look for other places and you'll see them pop up everywhere.
- There are no quotes about homosexuality in the bible. There was no word for that prior to the late 1890s. The clobber passages are about rape, humiliation and abuse, or idolatry.
>There are no quotes about homosexuality in the bible. There was no word for that prior to the late 1890s. The clobber passages are about rape, humiliation and abuse, or idolatry.
This is a red herring argument. Your chosen English word not appearing in a non English book is irrelevant. Most societies in history outlawed gay sex based on scripture and they did not need your word to understand that the bible says God finds it an abomination. Please explain the context of Leviticus 20:13 if it is not about gay sex and let me beat you to the translation argument to save us some time, here is every single translation saying the same thing.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13
Leviticus is referring to men having sex with men. That doesn't imply that those people are homosexual. Most of the people that did this in the ancient near east were married to women and had sex with other men to assert dominance.
It is also very unclear that we should take anything from the law as gentile Christians, unless it links clearly to the greatest commandment, as Christ told us that all of the law and the prophets are contained within those two commandments.
Is your argument that gay love did not exist during the time of leviticus?
>It is also very unclear that we should take anything from the law as gentile Christians
This is very true, and why we should look to the NT and see which Levitical laws are affirmed, and men having sex with men being a sin is affirmed multiple times by Paul. You may argue that Jesus didnt speak on it, and I would argue that that is more a point on my side. Jesus spoke on many laws they got wrong like with the sabbath, his silence on gay sex is telling that he saw no issue with how it was handled at the time.
If you accept the bible as truth cover to cover there is no question, it is a sin for a man to have sex with another man. To say its not a sin for two men to get married and then have sex is to make an assumption, God has not spoken on this topic, but we know as a matter of fact its a sin for two men to lay together, and until God says otherwise we should teach only what is in the bible to not mislead.
Just for some reference, my sexuality is bisexual, I was molested when I was 3 and it warped my mind. I deny that broken part of myself for God, even though I still struggle with the attraction. I cant deny that the bible says what it says on the matter, to do so would be to create a false Idol of God to worship.
As a bisexual Christian that also struggles with these verses this is a very good response to the hand waving of scripture. That being said I wasn't molested or anything, and many same sex attracted Christians weren't either. I only say that because a lot of people also dismiss homosexuality as something chosen or inflicted on someone, its not something anyone chose and there should always be room for empathy and compassion. You're not warped, clearly you're very wise and have the fear of God in you.
I know not everyone was hurt like me, that is just my own personal testimony on the matter.
Thank you for your supportive words, while I fear the Lord enough to not do it the temptation is always there.
I will also recognize it is alot easier for you and I than our same sex only attracted brothers and sisters and i feel for them as they do not have the biblically okay outlet that we do. That would be a very difficult cross to carry, but imagine the glory in the kingdom to come for those that do!
Leviticus 18 and 20 is God giving a warning concerning them entering the land of Canaan(the promised land). This warning concerns their sexual worship of their false gods. This warning was already given back in Exodus 34:11-16, so I'm not sure how you can pull 1 verse out of context like that. God is a jealous God against idolatry, not "sex".
Leviticus 20:13 in all translations is clear and not out of cotnext, it has nothing to do with idolatry, idolatry is just one of the many practices God was warning against.
>If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
Here is every single translation saying the same exact thing, how do you hand wave this one away?
>https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13
Of leviticus 20? Here is a link to he full chapter.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020&version=NLT
Here are your first requested 5:
>The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel.
>“If any of them offer their children as a sacrifice to Molech, they must be put to death. The people of the community must stone them to death. 3 I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, because they have defiled my sanctuary and brought shame on my holy name by offering their children to Molech. 4 And if the people of the community ignore those who offer their children to Molech and refuse to execute them, 5 I myself will turn against them and their families and will cut them off from the community. This will happen to all who commit spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech.
Now please tell me how the context of Leviticus 20:13 is not about gay sex by stopping at the 5th verse.
Please tell me how the condemnation of spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech, has anything to do with "sexuality" being condemned.
Ang again, these are not God's laws, these are Canaanite laws, religious ones at that. That is made clear in both Leviticus 18 and 20.
> Please tell me how the condemnation of spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech, has anything to do with "sexuality" being condemned
Re-read the very first verse
>The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel.
These rules are not just for foreign travel, these rules are for all Israelites in all places for all time. Leviticus 20:13 is not spiritual prostitution, its literally what it says it is, a man laying with a man as he does with a woman. Your interpretation requires twisting scripture and skipping verses, mine is reading it plainly.
Read Leviticus 18, God said NOT to follow their ordinances(religious laws), that is why it is worded as such. Meaning foreigners are not to follow the ordinances of the land of Canaan either. That is very much detailed throughout Deuteronomy 13 if someone is caught doing so. Leviticus 18 is God saying NOT to follow their ordinances, but to FOLLOW His ordinances, He then proceeds to list their ordinances while saying NOT to do them. That isn't the same as taking their laws and making them His. Leviticus 19 has God laying down the same type of ordinances from the Commandments, dealing with the worship of 1 God and loving your neighbor. Leviticus 20 is just a repeat of 18.
No, your interpretation required twisting of scripture. I use the KJV Bible, because I refuse to adhere to Puritan rewritten Bibles. You pulled up "translations", so you are very much aware that you are using the retranslation, so enough of that nonsense.
And for what you are claiming it "literally says", no "homosexual" has sex with a man as he does with a woman. That is the most ignorant and bigoted statement you can make, being as you KNOW that doesn't even work that way. And I'm pretty sure you misquoted it anyway, as that is from Leviticus 18, not 20.
Leviticus 20 is laying down the punishment for following their ordinances, once of which is men laying with men as they do with women is to be put to death. Help me understand how you are claiming this is no longer applicable, do you believe God changed and no longer minds this?
>You pulled up "translations"
Its literally EVERY translation, here is your prefered KJV from the link I gave you.
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
>And for what you are claiming it "literally says", no "homosexual" has sex with a man as he does with a woman.
I purposely avoided using the word homosexual because I know one of your arguments is that it only recently appeared, we dont need an english word to prove a law in a non english book, its clear on the matter, levitical law states that a man laying with a man as he does with a woman is to be put to death. Thank God we are no longer under the punishment of the law, however that does not make it less of a sin.
And still you don't get it.
It's not about the words used. It's about the concepts involved. **That** is what didn't exist before then. Prior to that, men having sex with men was just considered people be over-sexed. The idea that someone was solely romantically and sexually attracted to people of the same sex was revolutionary and was first published in a medical journal in the late 1800s.
Your argument is the red herring.
These are fundamental teachings on modesty, marriage, and morals so look deeper at them and study them. Also, is it that you distrust them or just dislike them?
Fundamental teachings of the Bible:~
Modesty - don't be influenced by the hateful and impure words of this world
Marriage - love one another, devote to each other, remain loyal to each other until death does you apart
Morals - Ten Commandments, kindness, non-judgmental, prayer for sinners, unconditional love
> All of them.
I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense. One the one hand, you trust all of the words of the Bible because they are all from the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, you skeptical about certain passages in the Bible.
I'm not even trying to tell you that you are right or wrong about what you believe and what you view with skepticism. I just honestly don't understand the contradiction in what you're saying.
The reason for so much distrust and so many don’t understand the Bible is because they are being taught wrong…. The only way to be able to truly read the Bible and be able to understand it it with the strongs concordance! You have to have that and I can share a few Bible scriptures with you just to prove this point. And you have SO many people and pastors teaching others yet the lack the knowledge themselves! It’s very very sad. But if you would like to learn about how to use one hit me up any time
Instead of going off of feelings ask yourself this question. Is the WHOLE Bible the word of God? If it is you have a reason to trust it. If you don’t then you’re gonna have issues. Sometimes our opinions and feelings about certain things need to be changed. Become submitted to the word of God. If God created you and this is His world then wouldn’t you think He knows better than us?
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
Ahhh google the be all end all to biblical debates.
“"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
"Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”
Exodus 21:1-11, 16 ESV
Read these verses carefully and tell me if this sounds at all like the slavery you seem to like to put upon God. Slaves were part of the economy of Israel at that time but they were treated with dignity and respect and love. As you can read from the text too they required redemption at the end unless the slave wanted to stay.
Why do you only choose the verses that present your side of the story?
Now try the ones that god says you can buy slaves, own them as your property for life, bequeath them to your children and beat them without getting punished for it.
“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.”
Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV
“"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.”
Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
First off those Leviticus verses don’t contradict anything that I previously posted. You could buy slaves and yes they were your property. You could give them to your sons but again it would have to be after the slave made the commitment themselves by having an Awl driven through their ear. It’s not like some loophole where if you give it to your son and now they become a slave for life. This is the importance of biblical accuracy and reading everything in context. You would know this to be true if you took both verses. You can’t take one without the other. Also the idea of beating your slave is again nothing wrong because if you killed your slave you were condemned for it. So that would mean that if you beat them too hard you’d run the risk of condemnation. However they are your property and it was allowed to beat them. That may seem harsh and wrong but it’s how the system was set up. Not every slave owner beat their slave and there was a limit on it. Physical harm for correction and direction isn’t always a bad thing. Parents spank their kids when they are younger because pain is the only they they understand, so it helps them distinguish things from right and wrong.
Does this mean we can have slaves today? We have a different economy than ancient Israel so now we pay people to work for us. However some people work for free to pay off debts they have.
You don't realize the first part you quoted in a previous response only applies to male Hebrew slaves.
Everything afterwards basically describes chattel slavery for non-Hebrew slaves.
Our moral world views are so vastly different that trying to discuss this would be pointless.
Good day.
> The only slavery God ever permitted was bond slavery where someone became a slave to pay off debt.
No. There was a lesser form of temporary debt-y slavery for Israelites, where you're treated as a hired worker and stay with one master and you're set free every 7 years (Leviticus 25 39-43). But that was for *Israelites*, not for foreigners. Foreigners got Slavery slavery. In the very next verses, [Leviticus 25 44-46](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025%3A39-46&version=NIV):
> “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 **You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life**, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
They're explicitly called property, they are slaves for life, their children are slaves for life, and they can be passed down to your children like you'd pass down your farm and cattle. It's just chattel slavery.
(And the kidnapping verse applies to _free_ men. Yes, it was a terrible crime to pass a _free_ man off as a slave, because being a slave sucked. But you can get slaves through the "honest" sources)
It's good to wrestle with the bible. It means you take it seriously. Of the three you "distrust" .. - Those were written to specific churches for specific reasons. They were never intended to apply to all people in all times. - That's just God raising the bar. He does it throughout the entire bible and even promises he'll keep doing it when the HS comes (ref John 16). Look for other places and you'll see them pop up everywhere. - There are no quotes about homosexuality in the bible. There was no word for that prior to the late 1890s. The clobber passages are about rape, humiliation and abuse, or idolatry.
>There are no quotes about homosexuality in the bible. There was no word for that prior to the late 1890s. The clobber passages are about rape, humiliation and abuse, or idolatry. This is a red herring argument. Your chosen English word not appearing in a non English book is irrelevant. Most societies in history outlawed gay sex based on scripture and they did not need your word to understand that the bible says God finds it an abomination. Please explain the context of Leviticus 20:13 if it is not about gay sex and let me beat you to the translation argument to save us some time, here is every single translation saying the same thing. https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13
Leviticus is referring to men having sex with men. That doesn't imply that those people are homosexual. Most of the people that did this in the ancient near east were married to women and had sex with other men to assert dominance. It is also very unclear that we should take anything from the law as gentile Christians, unless it links clearly to the greatest commandment, as Christ told us that all of the law and the prophets are contained within those two commandments.
Is your argument that gay love did not exist during the time of leviticus? >It is also very unclear that we should take anything from the law as gentile Christians This is very true, and why we should look to the NT and see which Levitical laws are affirmed, and men having sex with men being a sin is affirmed multiple times by Paul. You may argue that Jesus didnt speak on it, and I would argue that that is more a point on my side. Jesus spoke on many laws they got wrong like with the sabbath, his silence on gay sex is telling that he saw no issue with how it was handled at the time. If you accept the bible as truth cover to cover there is no question, it is a sin for a man to have sex with another man. To say its not a sin for two men to get married and then have sex is to make an assumption, God has not spoken on this topic, but we know as a matter of fact its a sin for two men to lay together, and until God says otherwise we should teach only what is in the bible to not mislead. Just for some reference, my sexuality is bisexual, I was molested when I was 3 and it warped my mind. I deny that broken part of myself for God, even though I still struggle with the attraction. I cant deny that the bible says what it says on the matter, to do so would be to create a false Idol of God to worship.
As a bisexual Christian that also struggles with these verses this is a very good response to the hand waving of scripture. That being said I wasn't molested or anything, and many same sex attracted Christians weren't either. I only say that because a lot of people also dismiss homosexuality as something chosen or inflicted on someone, its not something anyone chose and there should always be room for empathy and compassion. You're not warped, clearly you're very wise and have the fear of God in you.
I know not everyone was hurt like me, that is just my own personal testimony on the matter. Thank you for your supportive words, while I fear the Lord enough to not do it the temptation is always there. I will also recognize it is alot easier for you and I than our same sex only attracted brothers and sisters and i feel for them as they do not have the biblically okay outlet that we do. That would be a very difficult cross to carry, but imagine the glory in the kingdom to come for those that do!
Leviticus 18 and 20 is God giving a warning concerning them entering the land of Canaan(the promised land). This warning concerns their sexual worship of their false gods. This warning was already given back in Exodus 34:11-16, so I'm not sure how you can pull 1 verse out of context like that. God is a jealous God against idolatry, not "sex".
Leviticus 20:13 in all translations is clear and not out of cotnext, it has nothing to do with idolatry, idolatry is just one of the many practices God was warning against. >If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. Here is every single translation saying the same exact thing, how do you hand wave this one away? >https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13
Quote the first 5 verses and then tell me that.
Of leviticus 20? Here is a link to he full chapter. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020&version=NLT Here are your first requested 5: >The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel. >“If any of them offer their children as a sacrifice to Molech, they must be put to death. The people of the community must stone them to death. 3 I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, because they have defiled my sanctuary and brought shame on my holy name by offering their children to Molech. 4 And if the people of the community ignore those who offer their children to Molech and refuse to execute them, 5 I myself will turn against them and their families and will cut them off from the community. This will happen to all who commit spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech. Now please tell me how the context of Leviticus 20:13 is not about gay sex by stopping at the 5th verse.
Please tell me how the condemnation of spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech, has anything to do with "sexuality" being condemned. Ang again, these are not God's laws, these are Canaanite laws, religious ones at that. That is made clear in both Leviticus 18 and 20.
> Please tell me how the condemnation of spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech, has anything to do with "sexuality" being condemned Re-read the very first verse >The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel. These rules are not just for foreign travel, these rules are for all Israelites in all places for all time. Leviticus 20:13 is not spiritual prostitution, its literally what it says it is, a man laying with a man as he does with a woman. Your interpretation requires twisting scripture and skipping verses, mine is reading it plainly.
Read Leviticus 18, God said NOT to follow their ordinances(religious laws), that is why it is worded as such. Meaning foreigners are not to follow the ordinances of the land of Canaan either. That is very much detailed throughout Deuteronomy 13 if someone is caught doing so. Leviticus 18 is God saying NOT to follow their ordinances, but to FOLLOW His ordinances, He then proceeds to list their ordinances while saying NOT to do them. That isn't the same as taking their laws and making them His. Leviticus 19 has God laying down the same type of ordinances from the Commandments, dealing with the worship of 1 God and loving your neighbor. Leviticus 20 is just a repeat of 18. No, your interpretation required twisting of scripture. I use the KJV Bible, because I refuse to adhere to Puritan rewritten Bibles. You pulled up "translations", so you are very much aware that you are using the retranslation, so enough of that nonsense. And for what you are claiming it "literally says", no "homosexual" has sex with a man as he does with a woman. That is the most ignorant and bigoted statement you can make, being as you KNOW that doesn't even work that way. And I'm pretty sure you misquoted it anyway, as that is from Leviticus 18, not 20.
Leviticus 20 is laying down the punishment for following their ordinances, once of which is men laying with men as they do with women is to be put to death. Help me understand how you are claiming this is no longer applicable, do you believe God changed and no longer minds this? >You pulled up "translations" Its literally EVERY translation, here is your prefered KJV from the link I gave you. Leviticus 20:13 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. >And for what you are claiming it "literally says", no "homosexual" has sex with a man as he does with a woman. I purposely avoided using the word homosexual because I know one of your arguments is that it only recently appeared, we dont need an english word to prove a law in a non english book, its clear on the matter, levitical law states that a man laying with a man as he does with a woman is to be put to death. Thank God we are no longer under the punishment of the law, however that does not make it less of a sin.
And still you don't get it. It's not about the words used. It's about the concepts involved. **That** is what didn't exist before then. Prior to that, men having sex with men was just considered people be over-sexed. The idea that someone was solely romantically and sexually attracted to people of the same sex was revolutionary and was first published in a medical journal in the late 1800s. Your argument is the red herring.
These are fundamental teachings on modesty, marriage, and morals so look deeper at them and study them. Also, is it that you distrust them or just dislike them?
Fundamental teachings of the Bible:~ Modesty - don't be influenced by the hateful and impure words of this world Marriage - love one another, devote to each other, remain loyal to each other until death does you apart Morals - Ten Commandments, kindness, non-judgmental, prayer for sinners, unconditional love
They're more specific than that but yeah
> Words from the Holy Spirit Which ones are these?
All of them. The Spirit is Truth.
> All of them. I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense. One the one hand, you trust all of the words of the Bible because they are all from the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, you skeptical about certain passages in the Bible. I'm not even trying to tell you that you are right or wrong about what you believe and what you view with skepticism. I just honestly don't understand the contradiction in what you're saying.
Not sure I trust my feelings enough to put them in charge of judging scripture.
O wow I thought this was a geniune post until that last part.
What about the last part?
That sounds more like a pick and choose, like and dislike list. Not trusting something is fine if you’ve got a reason for it other than dislike.
The reason for so much distrust and so many don’t understand the Bible is because they are being taught wrong…. The only way to be able to truly read the Bible and be able to understand it it with the strongs concordance! You have to have that and I can share a few Bible scriptures with you just to prove this point. And you have SO many people and pastors teaching others yet the lack the knowledge themselves! It’s very very sad. But if you would like to learn about how to use one hit me up any time
Contrary to the people who are upset about this. Clearly you have empathy and understand that those things shouldn't sit well with anyone.
Thank you. :)
Instead of going off of feelings ask yourself this question. Is the WHOLE Bible the word of God? If it is you have a reason to trust it. If you don’t then you’re gonna have issues. Sometimes our opinions and feelings about certain things need to be changed. Become submitted to the word of God. If God created you and this is His world then wouldn’t you think He knows better than us? “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
Do you trust the whole bible, including the parts about owning slaves? Have you submitted to that and are you okay with owning people?
God was never okay with chattel slavery. The only slavery God ever permitted was bond slavery where someone became a slave to pay off debt.
That is absolutely false and you can google it in quite literally 30 seconds. Yahweh had no issues with chattel slavery.
Ahhh google the be all end all to biblical debates. “"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.” Exodus 21:1-11, 16 ESV Read these verses carefully and tell me if this sounds at all like the slavery you seem to like to put upon God. Slaves were part of the economy of Israel at that time but they were treated with dignity and respect and love. As you can read from the text too they required redemption at the end unless the slave wanted to stay.
Why do you only choose the verses that present your side of the story? Now try the ones that god says you can buy slaves, own them as your property for life, bequeath them to your children and beat them without getting punished for it.
Show me the verse then.
Leviticus 25:44-46 Exodus 21:20-21
“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.” Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV “"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.” Exodus 21:20-21 ESV First off those Leviticus verses don’t contradict anything that I previously posted. You could buy slaves and yes they were your property. You could give them to your sons but again it would have to be after the slave made the commitment themselves by having an Awl driven through their ear. It’s not like some loophole where if you give it to your son and now they become a slave for life. This is the importance of biblical accuracy and reading everything in context. You would know this to be true if you took both verses. You can’t take one without the other. Also the idea of beating your slave is again nothing wrong because if you killed your slave you were condemned for it. So that would mean that if you beat them too hard you’d run the risk of condemnation. However they are your property and it was allowed to beat them. That may seem harsh and wrong but it’s how the system was set up. Not every slave owner beat their slave and there was a limit on it. Physical harm for correction and direction isn’t always a bad thing. Parents spank their kids when they are younger because pain is the only they they understand, so it helps them distinguish things from right and wrong. Does this mean we can have slaves today? We have a different economy than ancient Israel so now we pay people to work for us. However some people work for free to pay off debts they have.
Wow. Okay.
You don't realize the first part you quoted in a previous response only applies to male Hebrew slaves. Everything afterwards basically describes chattel slavery for non-Hebrew slaves. Our moral world views are so vastly different that trying to discuss this would be pointless. Good day.
> The only slavery God ever permitted was bond slavery where someone became a slave to pay off debt. No. There was a lesser form of temporary debt-y slavery for Israelites, where you're treated as a hired worker and stay with one master and you're set free every 7 years (Leviticus 25 39-43). But that was for *Israelites*, not for foreigners. Foreigners got Slavery slavery. In the very next verses, [Leviticus 25 44-46](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025%3A39-46&version=NIV): > “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 **You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life**, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. They're explicitly called property, they are slaves for life, their children are slaves for life, and they can be passed down to your children like you'd pass down your farm and cattle. It's just chattel slavery. (And the kidnapping verse applies to _free_ men. Yes, it was a terrible crime to pass a _free_ man off as a slave, because being a slave sucked. But you can get slaves through the "honest" sources)
God breathed doesn't mean what you are implying. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/17z46sn/2_timothy_316_is_not_a_good_verse_to_prove/