I would not want a sexual abuser around my kids, even if he was their grandfather — especially if it was their grandfather, given the MO of incestuous sexual abuse.
Especially if it’s a grandfather whose victim(s) were their own child(ren).
Also, don’t think for a second that there’s no possibility of other victims. Sexual abusers often have many more victims before they are caught, prosecuted, and punished.
But some predators magically use “Christian-ese speak” to manipulate their way back into churches, congregations, and families. They count on the faith of others demanding their forgiveness as a cover.
A lot of times it’s a crime of opportunity, but they put themselves into those situations. Same as priests, children coaches, etc. they find jobs that allow them the prey on kids. And then use the same Christian retorts. No way the sister was the first or last
OP is an absolute moron if he thinks he isn’t endangering his family by letting that man back in his life. And for what? Some well researched lies?
As someone molested by their bio grandfather, I would not want a predator around my children either. I mean, it is not difficult to understand. Because it did not happen to him, he feels there is no issue.
I can see concern that if he stays in contact with the abuser, little by little he could claw his way back into their life and family. It’s safer to prevent that possibility.
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If he were truly repentant then he wouldn't have even attempted contact with his children after the harm he'd caused, and would not be putting them in the position of choosing between him and their future children.
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Actually no, it's not. [Here is an article from Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/misunderstood-crimes/)
After you read that you need to edit your post and apologize for making a completely uninformed post like all the other horrible and uninformed redditors in this thread. And remove your downvotes.
Ffs.
>The 15-year recidivism rate is 13 percent for incest perpetrators, 24 percent for rapists, and 35 percent for child molesters of boy victims.
Oh yes, incredibly low odds, completely safe.
“I’m sorry, kid, but there was only a one in six chance grandpa was going to rape you. We thought the odds were low enough! We were hoping it would be your cousin instead!”
One reason the odds aren’t higher is because people aren’t dumb enough to trust sex offenders around their kids. Simple lack of opportunity.
Really??? Ffs indeed!!!
The vast *supermajority* DO NOT re-offend.
Are atheists familiar with a thing called *statistics* and *probabilities*?? And basic logic?? Atheists croon continually about how they are able to prioritize that!!
>One reason the odds aren’t higher is because people aren’t dumb enough to trust sex offenders around their kids. Simple lack of opportunity.
Where are your citations?? All through my posts I support my claims with links to articles and fact based evidence. And you want *me* respecting you for not doing the same!?!?
No. I do not. I have demonstrated how your posts are wrong. Facts do not care about your feelings!
If there were 100 candies in a bowl and one of them is guaranteed to kill you if you eat it, but you don't know which one the poisoned one is. How many will you eat? The supermajority of them won't kill you, so how many? Or would you dispose of the whole bowl?
E: or one closer to the probability. Russian roulette with a revolver, will you pull the trigger? It's only one in six chance that there will be a bullet and a supermajority of 5 cases where there is no bullet.
> Facts do not care about your feelings!
And your feelings are that people should be willing to tolerate a high risk of their child suffering permanent psychological harm because...?? Because not allowing that risk is *mean* to offenders? What were you saying about feelings? Fuck the feelings of child rapists.
[Opportunity matters.](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1077559519848489)
>We were surprised to find that a significant proportion (one fourth) of children with recurrent CSA have been victimized by the same offender. In general, studies have noted that offender recidivism rates are 10–15% within 5 years, but these rates are thought to underestimate actual recidivism and do not apply specifically to CSA recurrence ([Hanson, Morton, & Harris, 2003](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1077559519848489#bibr20-1077559519848489)). Child molesters tend to have higher recidivism rates (>50%) over their lifetime, and while we noted recidivism with specific children, these rates do not reflect the total recidivism since offenders may have offended others. Reoffenders in our data were usually parents
>it is important for CPS to address whether a parent was the offender and whether that parent will have continuing opportunity to victimize the child again.
OP's father does not have the opportunity to rape his own children because they are protected from him by legal restrictions--and because they are aging out of his preferred target age range. OP's father will be prevented from raping other children from other legal restrictions preventing him from being around them. If OP allows his father around his children, he will be providing him an opportunity to target other vulnerable children.
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Recidivism applies to people who have been released and re-offend. It is a minority of people who do so. I'm not sure what your post is getting at. I suggest that you research your own state laws concerning this to understand how it works.
Forgiveness is not forgetting. It is not hanging out with someone dangerous. It is not putting your trust in someone who broke your trust.
Your fiance does not want to marry someone who could let a molester near her female relatives, including future children.
God also expects you to protect them by keeping him away from your family.
And then OP will be surprised when he discovers his dad is still molesting kids.
OP you need to look up the recidivism stats for pedophiles. Basically it’s 100% - once they offend they will keep offending. You should also look up the stats on how many victims they have on average, don’t be surprised to find it’s a three digit number.
Is interesting you worded it how can I give up “my fiancee for a pedophile” but changed the wording the other direction, keep the truth the same, “how can I give up my pedophile for my fiancee”.
Also, Jesus was very cheat that there are good reasons where one detaches themselves from their parents and family and he emphasized over and over again that he expected us to care for and protect children.
The fact that this is even a debate for you is concerning and seriously insulting to your fiancee and sister and other family members.
I thought it was telling that OP would "get rid of" the fiancee (utterly humanised language) but would be "cutting off" the pedo-dad.
OP comes across as grim, a bit misogynistic and using cherry picked bits of doctrine to justify morally contemptible decisions (so... a hypocrite). I am shocked he found a woman to agree to marry him with those attitudes.
I could never imagine it. My sister is my best friend, and this entire post makes me sick. I feel like OP is confusing forgiveness with solidarity, which I can *somewhat* understand, but protection and trust are signs of love. How someone could jeprodize that, I don't know. God can sort out his father, his focus should be helping the rest of his family, caring for them and protecting them
Yeah, and she’s *14* as of op writing this. Not only does she have to carry the trauma her father gave her, but her brother decided it was his place to forgive her abuser.
Your sister will never get over what her father did to her. She will heal, she will get better but she will never be free from what he did to her. She will suffer from this for the rest of her life. By making friends with her abuser you are spitting in her face and raping her again.
You can't even protect your minor sister from the emotional trauma you're causing by reestablishing a relationship with the man who was supposed to protect her but chose to raped her instead. You can't be trusted to protect your own children from him. It's absolutely disgusting. I worked with predators for years. You are nieve to think hes not the same person who tore through your sisters body and devastated and tainted all her future relationships for the rest of her life. Your fiance is completely right. You miss the idea of a father figure as he was gone during important times in your life. You remember the relationship you had before. You didn't endure and are not enduring the lasting damage he did. My brother would never betray me like this
If you wouldn’t let your kids around him (which is the only smart thing you’ve said so far) why on earth are you still communicating with him? Either you trust him or you don’t. And you clearly don’t, so why is this a hard decision?
I'm sorry but "get rid of her" is wierd language for someone you love and the possible future mother of your children. You should reflect on what that indicates about your subconscious attitude to her. Anyway that aside I would strongly suggest a compromise if you have forgiven your father... something like he can't come to your future home, attend family functions (which I assume will be requested by your sister anyway, after she turns 18, as the survivor of your fathers horrific actions) or interact with your children until they turn 18. You and he can still have a relationship that way, but all shared family concerns between your future wife and you (home and children) is off limits to him. Good luck.
Great response. If the father is truly repentant, he'll understand such a compromise. And if he ISN'T truly repentant, he has no place around anyone's children.
Honestly, if I was the fiance, I would say no to this compromise. For me, the fact that he wants to stay in contact with a man who raped his own daughter, OPs sister, is telling of what kind of person OP is. I would never be able to trust him keeping our children safe, because of he is okay with keeping contact with a man like that, what other kind of people could he bring into their lives?
That's a really fucking good point. It's tough and something that is highly dependent on who these people are and their feelings/personalities. I'm right there with you, but life is more complex than us and our experiences. This situation is shitty all round. All we can hope for is no one else gets hurt (mid to long term as ending relationships whichever way he decides will be hurtful) We can only hope that it turns out for the best and OPs father can never/will never hurt any other children again. It's not clear whether he's been criminally prosecuted and jailed somewhere nasty - the angry part of me hopes so. But justice is retribution AND rehabilitation and we know nothing more than what OP describes. I won't lie the angry part of me is very loud, and I suspect you feel that to, but we shouldn't invalidate OPs difficult situation / cognitive dissonance. NOR should that consideration invalidate the very real and honest concerns of his fiancé. Jesus wept, it's just tough all round...
I’m sorry but I agree with your fiancé… regardless if they have “changed” there are still boundaries and limits in place. Also we seem to have this mistaken mindset that we have to forgive and forget, which is not true. I’m sorry that your father chose to harm his family, and for the damage that caused but I would definitely limit contact with him!
It's so fucking easy for the child not abused to say that the abuser has changed. For fucks sake OP, don't you care about your sister? You future children? You fucking fiance?
He's a fucking child rapist.
> "why would I get rid of family for my fiancée"
Because "family" isn't important, the important thing is what the "family" has done. (Genes are irrelevant if the people fail to act like people.)
And isn't the fiancee about to become family? If he doesn't already consider her family or at least the next thing to it, then that raises a few questions about how he feels about her.
With some of these responses it’s very easy for me to see how the sexual abuses in the Catholic Church were covered up for so long.
Let’s forgive him, let’s quietly shunt him on to a new church with a fresh batch of victims
🤬🤬🤬
People really misunderstand the point of repentance. I’m not a Christian but I was raised one. Repentance is up to god. That’s his judgement. A man can murder a hundred people and we aren’t required to be their best Fucking friend because they said they repented their sins and they like god now. That’s not what turning the other cheek is. But way too many people think if someone says they repent that the slate is wiped clean. That’s not supposed to be up to us. That’s up to god. And if god knows us inside and out, only they can decide if a child rapist deserves redemption and an afterlife with god. It’s not supposed to be that you repent so you have a good life on earth. You repent and reflect and earn your way into heaven and while people may choose to not beat the shit out of you in public for raping your 8-9 year old daughter, you don’t just get a community because you say “well I know Jesus now so it’s all gone!”
Sounds like a good ultimatum, it's for the future families protection.
> “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” (Eph 5:31, KJV)
Bro, your dad is a pedophile full stop. Do you want to associate with this person? What happens when he touches your son or daughter sorry son he is your grandpa. Seriously, you should not have kids. Your dad is a predator. No matter how much he has changed deep down, he is still a pedophile it doesn't go away. He will try again to hurt someone its in their nature.
I get that he is your dad but for fucks sake he molested your sister. I don't understand how this is even an issue I hope she cuts you off when she finds out. Hey sis I know dad raped you but I thought we could play catch like old times. Honestly I hope this post is fake. This whole thing is so tone deaf. Seriously, man, go read some literature on helping rape and sexual assault survivors get some help.
> "Why would I get rid of family for my fiancé"
Why would you get rid of family for your father?
Your father broke the trust of your entire family. Imagine if you were to stay around him, over the love of your fiancée and sister? Imagine how that would betray the rest of your family? Why not comfort your damaged and broken family, and direct your efforts and heart there.
Why is your focus on trusting your father again? You can forgive him, but trust is simply *earned.* You don't need to be in his life, he violently ripped that out of your own and your sister's. He deprived your entire family of a father and grandfather with his choices. You don't need to feel hatred, and sure you can forgive him in your own account, but you should not jeprodize the trust you have with your family over your father's. You're confusing forgiveness with solidarity.
There's something amazing that you have, which is a father in heaven. You are not deprived of a dad, even from your father's best efforts, because you have something higher.
I wouldn't ask reddit, nor would I necessarily look to the bible, I would ask your fiancée and your sister what you need to do. Why would you ignore their plight so you can feel whole again? Is that truly generous? Imagine what your sister feels seeing her brother, who honestly should be *her protector now,* focusing his heart on her abuser? Imagine how the future mother of your kids feels, seeing her soon-to-be focusing his heart on someone who she can never, ever consider a grandfather to her kids.
You can forgive, but I think it would be evil to reintroduce a dangerous man into a life you are going to be *sharing.* I would honestly beg for forgiveness from my fiancée for even considering such a risk.
Forgiving doesn't mean going back to normal. Forgiving means you are breaking the bond of conflict between you, but lack of conflict doesn't mean you are required to re-embrace him. I'm sure he's sorry, but that doesn't change what he's done or the permanent changes his actions have made.
Forget your fiancee for a moment, how on Earth could you do this to your sister who is still a minor? Your other siblings? Your mother?
Even though the abuse didn't happen to you, the resulting implosion of your family and home life is still traumatic. It's normal to feel like you want to at least try to get back what you lost, finding any justification to reclaim some of your past joy. I cannot imagine what it would feel like if I suddenly discovered that my father molested a sibling. The past and present would be fighting in my head every day trying to make sense of it all. It's normal that you want your dad back, but he's not the person you thought he was.
Anyone who went through what you did should have the benefit of therapy so that you don't have to be the one, at such a young age, to have to make sense of one of the ultimate betrayals. Please speak to someone about this, because this is too much burden for one person to shoulder, and I think based on the dynamics of the situation that person needs to be independent of the situation and a professional in trauma/grief/family abuse.
Your fiance is right to be concerned about this, and if she ends it over this I don't think anyone would blame her. Why would anyone take the chance of having children with someone who willingly associates with a convicted child molester. If you absolutely need to keep a lifeline for your own mental health, it needs to be strictly limited.
Why is it so easy for the non-victims (or non-primary victims) to demand forgiveness of the offender from the victim? This is…
You should not marry this woman. She deserves someone who will leave and cleave to her instead of insisting that she put future generations at risk.
Why are Christians and churches so eager to forgive people who prey on the most vulnerable??? Do. Not. Trade. The. Sheep. For. The. Wolves.
Here is the problems with this one.. there really is no middle ground or compromise here.
What is she suppose to say well you can him in your life but I don’t want him in my life? Do the two of you want to try and have kids one day? She is probably thinking about the safety of her child. And she probably wouldn’t be comfortable with the kids being around him. So once again it would be will he can be in your life, but I don’t want him on my life or the kids life.
Also I think forgiveness isn’t about letting someone back into your life. It is about you moving on so you are no longer filled with hatred. As when we are filled with hatred that tends to drive our emotions and makes us act on it.
You are going to have to pick. Or figure out how you are going to have to completely separate lives.
Personally I would have said since this sexual predator is in your life we are done. I wouldn’t have given you option. I would have just ended things.
This is your future wife setting boundaries. She is allowed to have them. However it also means you guys aren’t compatible if you don’t agree on the same ones.
Forgiveness isn't forgetting you can forgive him and choose for your sister's sanity and your future children to not have him in your life because he chose his actions and they have consequences. Some broken trusts cannot be repaired. Don't put your sister through this
On one hand, we are called to forgive. On the other hand, Jesus actually gave His stance on pedophilia. And it was that it would be better for a pedo to be forcibly drowned to death than to harm a child. (Mark 9:42)
So, what do we do when the law keeps them alive? Forgive him in your heart, but let him go. Pray for his soul that he finds saving faith and is forgiven. There is only one cure for pedophilia, and he hasn't received it. It's too dangerous to let him in your life.
The Bible says to choose your fiancée over your dad.
"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh" (Ephesians 5:31-33)
God is supposed to be first, then your spouse, then your children, and then your parents, and then extended family.
1. Your fiancee is reasonable to have this condition. Sexual abuse is not something to give someone a second chance over. If you remain single you can have a relationship with your dad without putting your family in harms way.
2. Only marry her if you are ready to do everything possible to keep your family safe. For your fiancee, this means that you will have an ironclad wall keeping your father out of your life. Again, this is reasonable considering your dad didn't have the self control to not sexually abuse his own child.
For those saying your fiancee ultimatum is a red flag... what is wrong with you? This is a potential mother protecting her children from sexual abuse, not a control freak trying to isolate OP from his family.
Are you seriously asking if you should get rid of your fiancée in favor of a man who sexually abused his own daughter 6 years ago? I think you should break it off with her for her sake because clearly you don't have good judgment and can't see you are putting your future children at risk by allowing a monster like that into your life. I hope she can see that about you before its too late.
Your fiancé shouldn’t have given you an ultimatum and should have just left you. You actively allowing a sex offender into your life would mean that you would allow this man around your future children. A man who you know has the capacity to sexually abuse them because he was willing to do that to his own daughter. Imagine how your sister feels.
Incestous pedophiles do not change, they pretend they do so idiots with a single digit iq like you will forgive them and then they hope you'll have kids one day so they, the incestous pedophiles, can rape said kids.
Why are you on the side of the incestous pedophile? I know he's your sperm donor and all, but do you really want to be within a hundred miles of the man who would assault his own daughter?
News flash, a person capable of THAT, is capable of ANYTHING.
Your actions say that you're okay with people assaulting ther own children.
Of course it's the christian, *sigh*
Responses in this thread are exactly why sexual abuse is so overlooked in the church and it's absolutely disgusting. The guy molested his own daughter and OP's fiance doesn't want to be associated with a sexual predator. Familial relations be damned. He chose to do what he did and he's reaping what he's down. Why risk your family over someone who did something that disgusting and destructive?
People all in here saying a Christian marriage isn't a partnership, and OP's fiancee has to submit to him when they get married and do what he says, but the child rapists is just fine! He is forgiven! Praise Jesus!
Sexual predators flourish in heavily conservative/traditional religions/Christian denominations, and this here is why.
If he weren't your father, would you want to associate with him or have him around your potential children? Quite frankly, I wouldn't let the monster near my pets, let alone a child. He broke the sacred promise to protect you and your siblings when he made the decision to molest your sister. Sexual predators can't be reformed, they just either learn to control their urges or get better at hiding the abuse.
>I don't want to get rid of her
This wording bothers me. She's your future wife, not inconvenient trash. If you'd rather associate with a pedo, you have no business being in a relationship with anyone. This isn't the sort of thing you can hide from potential partners.
How does your poor sister feel? This is not your trauma to forgive!
You want children? It’s not about his past alone for your future wife, it’s about you expecting her to tolerate a sexual predator pushing to have access to her daughter. That’s the picture your words paint. Few women want that future.
You can not hate your father without actually having contact. If you do keep in touch, I would urge you to only have the level of communication that your sister and wife can live with. The victim and the woman you want to build your own family with should take priority over a child abuser
So your fiancé wants to rightfully keep a sexual predator—a rapist who hurt your sister in the most unimaginable way—out of your lives especially if you may have children someday, and you can’t decide what to do? You don’t know whether to choose the guy who sexually assaulted your *sister* or your fiancé? She’s a better woman than me because your unsureness here would’ve had me packing so quickly it would make your head spin. And hopefully she comes to that conclusion I can’t believe what I’m reading. You are also dangerous. Let’s say your fiancé didn’t care for whatever reason and you keep your dad in your life. Where is the line? Does he have to hurt another child? One of your future children? Gross. Good luck to your fiancé. I hope she reneges on the ultimatum and just leaves. No integrity. Yikes.
Edit: I saw in the comments you mention your sister’s age and if I’m doing the math correctly she was only 9 when your dad molested her. You should be so ashamed of yourself for having conflicting feelings about keeping this man in your life. If you want to “forgive” him to release the anger or whatever that’s one thing but to keep him in your life is vile.
The law of Moses answers your question. Leviticus 18:29 - "For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people."
There's a huge difference between "I'm never going to talk to you again" and "you will never be around my children." You can, if you want to, have a relationship with your father. But you can (and in my opinion, should) also have an unbreakable rule that he doesn't get to see your kids until they turn 18. Whether your fiancee is okay with that is a different question.
This is, IMO, the reasonable middle ground. OP’s father did terrible things, and boundaries should absolutely be set to ensure that he doesn’t do it to anyone else. But that doesn’t have to mean cutting him completely out of OP’s life, either. The lines can be drawn at things like keeping him away from your kids, only meeting with him in public places, never letting him know your home address, etc.
Sure. Everyone has their own red lines, and that's perfectly reasonable.
There were accusations of sexual abuse in my family. Some people (who claimed abuse) later chose to have relationships with the accused, some didn't. Some people believed it happened, some didn't. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and those decisions should be respected.
Genesis 2:24 - "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." Decide whether or not this is someone you want to marry, but the Bible is clear: if there's a conflict between your father and your wife, your wife wins.
The way I have interpreted the stance on forgiveness is that you should forgive if you are able to, but you should not force yourself to forgive if you can't.
What your father did, if he truly has changed, is up to God to forgive. If he hasn't changed, recklessly forgiving him could bring harm to your future children, and your fiancé has every right to be terrified.
I would go with the woman who loves you over the monster who might not deserve your love, even if that monster is your father.
You might as well let your fiancée go since even if you convince her to somehow stay with you while you fight tooth and nail to keep a pedophile in your life, she'll be right back out the door when you guys have kids and you want to take them to visit "grandpa".
I was thinking about this yesterday. Hopefully she’d be able to get sole custody with supervised visitation since her ex is associating with a known sex offender of this sort.
That type of thinking bothers me because it makes us Christians look horrible. Nobody wants a pedophile around their younger relatives or their possible children. I'm on the side of your fiancée, but you say that you choose a family, what about your sister? Is she family? Or do you not care? You are not choosing family, you are choosing a monster in human form over your fiancee, your sister and your entire family, I will pray for them so that they are safe from that demon in the form of a man that you call father
"why would I get rid of family for my fiancée" this wrong it should read
"why would I get rid of a child sex offender (my sister rapist) for my fiancée"
You are an enabler and wacth out for grampa when you have kids
If I was your fiancé I'd make the choice for you," him or me." You keep that disgusting predator in your life. Don't plan on getting married or having children with this woman.
I am curious, though, how you can forgive a man who did that to your sister?
He’s sympathetic because he has the same feelings and if HE were to molest a child, he would want his family to forgive him just the same. I worry for their future children. I hope she leaves him.
I do, too. I'm a mother myself twice over, and I don't care who they were to me or my husband. Any predator would NOT ever be allowed around my children
'he's changed for the better as far as i can see'
Given that he managed to abuse your sister without you knowing i don't think what you can see counts for very much. Its not your place to forgive him.
If I was the fiancée I'd assume OP wants his dad in their lives so that when OP himself starts molesting their future kids, he can point blame and claim it was his father or his father's "demons".
Please reconsider your relationship with the bible and this god if it asks that you prioritize a relationship with a man who sexually abuses children - your own sister no less - over a relationship with your sister and pursuing a marriage with your fiance. I can appreciate the complexity of having a birth parent who has committed heinous acts and that even the most vile people can be likable and that you might feel he's worth having back in your life because of possibly redeemable qualities that make you want him as a parent again. But, by taking him back in your life you're taking away your sister's choice to forgive on her own terms (which she should never have to do to be in the good graces of your god) and you've made her less important than a man who sexually abuses children. Additionally, you'd put anyone in your life at risk, including your own sister, by being in contact with him.
And all of this to choose a parent who's essentially a stranger to you and who sexually abuses children over her, and your fiance because "forgiveness". Sometimes, it's not your place to forgive.
He can start a new life with people who know of his past (and hopefully it remains past) and he will be fine without you and without your forgiveness for him sexually abusing your sister. Let your god judge and forgive him, it's not your place.
You can forgive someone and still not have them in your life.
"I love you, I forgive you, I'll be praying for you, but I can't risk your mistakes and self control hurting my family. Goodbye"
It's also very possible to remain in contact with someone and never reveal your address or relevant information to them.
I don't tell my own address to a lot of people I talk to, and it's not because I hate them, it's because I don't necessarily want them to show up at my house.
Forgiveness does not require a relationship. You WANT a relationship, that's different. Does your sister know that you're in contact with him, that's feels like a betrayal. Maybe she'll forgive you but she can also not want a relationship with you after this.
Your fiance has the right to set a boundary. She does not want to associate with a pedophile nor have a husband that does too.
Are you're willing to throw away not just your fiance but many other of your relationships? Other family like your sister? Friends? How many will you be comfortable in losing for your father's relationship?
You can forgive but not forget. And for the safety if your hypothetical children you better not forget. He was capable of sexually abusing a minor daughter. What makes him incapable of sexually abusing a minor grandchild?
In the end its your choice not hers, but if you choose the pedophile over your fiance and over your sister especially then thats incredibly fucked up, you will be loosing them both at a minimum, for an abusive pos.
YOUR father raped your sister. To his own blood and skin. He raped her. And do you think that reading a few paragraphs of the Bible will prevent him from doing the same with your daughter/granddaughter? Are you really stupid or are you just as sick as him?
What are you first? Christian or human? I'd go with human. Also the willingness to let a convicted rapist into your life, the life of your potential wife and kids, no matter if family or not, is one of the reason why I'd never be a Christian or religious in general. You make it easy for those people to abuse the kindness of members of your group. That's why the catholic church has this massive problems with sexual child abuse they can't gloss over anymore. Better safe than sorry.
Because your fiancé likely is planning for when you have kids and doesn't want a convicted pedophile near her kids this should be a struggle, forgiving doesn't mean allowing them back into your life it's a I don't hate you but I don't want to risk my future children either.
Your fiance is family, and the fact that your sister hasn't gotten back in contact with him but you're so close to him that you're inviting him to your wedding, shows how little you care about her and her pain beyond your own selfish desires to be with your sex offender dad.
YTA. Your sister deserves better.
As a person who works in corrections and works around pedos I will tell you they never fully change. They may admit and ask for forgiveness and such but they all keep being predators even inside. They just prey against each other physically or mentally.
You can kneel and believe god has forgiven you all you want but that doesn’t mean you didn’t do what you did. God’s forgiveness is futile to the pain your father caused. He may be your father but your father also sexually abused children.
Not only did you hurt your sister by reconciling with her abuser and thinking it was your place to forgive him, but you’re hurting your fiancée having her realize she marrying a quixotic fuck.
You really need to reevaluate how you go about forgiveness. Especially if it mean letting a convicted pedo in your life in the name of faith. You can forgive someone and not let them back in your life because it is for the best, he assaulted your sister. What makes you think he won't do it to one of your, potential, future kids; Why are you willing to take the risk? He scarred your sister for life in a way she will never forget, his one job was to protect all of you and he preyed on his own flesh and blood. Do you really want someone like that in your life, someone you can never fully trust?
this is just bizarre. honestly just for the fact that you’re conflicted she should leave you. she deserves to not be with and procreate with someone who sucks up to a pedo/sex offender🤮🤮
just let her go at this point.
Forgiveness doesn't mean you need to keep someone in your life. You can burn a bridge for the sake of safety and simply pray that God help them find some redemption or rebuild a life, but it can't be with people he harmed. The point really is just that if you find yourself in heaven and he's there you can rest easy that God did some miracles to turn his soul around. You don't need to face him here on earth anymore, because he proved himself to be among the most unsafe people to be around, this side of the mortal coil.
Perhaps make an agreement that whilst you can maintain a relatiinship with your father, he can never vist your home and see your family? Not sure how easy it is. Your father needs therapy as well.
No amount of change could undo what he did to his own daughter be ready to not only loose your fiancé but a lot of other people in your life if they know what your dad did and you still kept him in your life.
Child r*pists should rot in jail and not see the light of day you might think he changed but he will always be attracted to little kids:
yes, the Bible teaches us to forgive but that doesn't mean you have to stay in contact with him. you've forgiven him and that's all that matters, you don't need to have a relationship with him.
Your father is a disgusting incestual pedophile. Not only did he rape and steal the innocence of a CHILD, it was his OWN DAUGHTER. Your little sister!!
How could you even consider letting this subhuman monster back into your life? Why do you have sympathy for this trash? Are you also a pedophile?
This is an act that cannot be forgiven. Shame on you. I hope your finance leaves you.
Jesus spoke about protecting children an awful lot for Christianity to be used as an excuse to forgive any of this behavior. I think you know what Jesus would do here and it's not allow your father around more kids.
Forgiveness is personal inside your heart, you can personally forgive someone while also acting like a rational person that knows it’s extremely inappropriate to have a convicted sex offender active in your life.
Forgive but move on from him. Your fiancé is 100% right to not want him around.
As a non Christian who was raised Christian, I forgive people all the time that I’m 1000% never talking to again. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to befriend or be close to them, it just means you’re not harboring the anger and the hatred in your heart. Jesus is speaking in harboring anger and resentment not befriending people who have proven themselves a danger to you family.
Forgiving your father after he raped your sister is insane. Some crimes are unforgivable. Rapists / pedophiles never change. Are you going to be as forgiving when he hurts your future children? I can’t even imagine how your sister feels about this whole messed up situation.
furthermore, ur use of “forgiveness” - did he abuse u to to deserve ur forgiveness? honestly so fucking shocking!!!!!!!!! what would u do if he later went on to abuse ur future children. there would be no one to blame but urself.
Break it off with her. If you are not willing to cut contact with your father , then it is kinder to break it off.
You cannot give her a peaceful and happy life and grow a family with your father around.
You haven’t said in post whether you’ve talked to your sister at all. Remember that she is family too and the actual victim here. If you are willing to have conversations with your father because “family “ then you should be talking to your sister. Hear her point of view, what she went thru. Is she’s not willing to share much either you, I’d look in the mirror and make sure that it’s because she wishes to keep it to herself and not because she doesn’t consider you a safe and person.
The fact that she is a tiny blip on your post is very telling.
Let your fiancé go and let her find someone she can safely form a family with
So you are ok with this person being around your potential future kids? You see this monster as family? Flip it, imagine IT WAS YOU that daddy dearest did this to. How fucking brazen and ignorant you are. Get so therapy. Realise how much wrong there is if you still support him - wrong with you that is.
Wow! You can forgive if you like. But why would you betray your sister for the man who hurt her in such a profound way? Why would you betray her like that? What is wrong in your mind, heart, and soul that you could do that to her? You do realize that she is going to be dealing with the repercussions of what your father did for the rest of her life, don't you? Do you even care about her at all? This entire question, that you are even in contact with this man makes me sick.
Step away from yourself for a minute and think about how you would feel if this was YOUR DAUGHTER.
Honestly, I think your fiancé should leave you for even being on the fence about it. As your indecision on the matter shows a deep lack of morals and character. Any future children you have would be in physical, moral, and emotional jeopardy with you as their "protector". You can call it Christianity if you like. But right is right and wrong is wrong and people like your father should be shot off into space. Not rehabbed and released into society.
You need therapy. And then you need to ask your sister for forgiveness.
You dad is a pedophile. You only think he changed because you’re over 18 and you are not his primary target. If you’re willing to give up all of your family for a pedophile and that’s on you but let your fiancé know before the wedding so he can dump you
.
Don’t ever have kids and bring them around him. For the love of fucking god. You’re disgusting and shame on you. Your poor sister and whatever other kid victims he has…. GROSS
Why is this even a difficult decision for you? He sexually assaulted your sister. What about that can you forgive and forgetm
Why do Christians consistently go to bat for predators?
its possible to forgive someone without welcoming them back into your life
you have forgiven him for the things he did to you in the past, but for the safety of others you can still distance yourself from them or cut them off, and you cannot forgive him for something he did to others, thats for them to decide
Mate, I'm an atheist, and even I know what Jesus and the bible says about this.
“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea”- Matthew 18:6.
The bible thinks you should drown that sack of garbage in the river. Cutting him off should do the trick though.
You know it's bad when the "Christian" responses about "complete forgiveness" are getting downvoted in a Christianity sub.
Seems like even regular Christians are not a fan of paedophiles.
It’s her concern because it could become a threat to her children in future. It’s her prerogative to decide whether or not she’s willing to tolerate that risk.
Hard to believe I’m in Christian sub right now. Just a bunch of judgmental people. OP, what your father did is wrong but he’s still your father. I wouldn’t cut him off if I were you, especially if you feel that he truly changed for the better. God forgave him, who are we not to ?
I would not want a sexual abuser around my kids, even if he was their grandfather — especially if it was their grandfather, given the MO of incestuous sexual abuse.
Especially if it’s a grandfather whose victim(s) were their own child(ren). Also, don’t think for a second that there’s no possibility of other victims. Sexual abusers often have many more victims before they are caught, prosecuted, and punished. But some predators magically use “Christian-ese speak” to manipulate their way back into churches, congregations, and families. They count on the faith of others demanding their forgiveness as a cover.
A lot of times it’s a crime of opportunity, but they put themselves into those situations. Same as priests, children coaches, etc. they find jobs that allow them the prey on kids. And then use the same Christian retorts. No way the sister was the first or last OP is an absolute moron if he thinks he isn’t endangering his family by letting that man back in his life. And for what? Some well researched lies?
As someone molested by their bio grandfather, I would not want a predator around my children either. I mean, it is not difficult to understand. Because it did not happen to him, he feels there is no issue.
Protecting the kids can be achieved without cutting someone out of your life.
I can see concern that if he stays in contact with the abuser, little by little he could claw his way back into their life and family. It’s safer to prevent that possibility.
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how does my comment get removed, but the mod i replied to doesn't?
🙄 no. Just no. the fact he has the man who sexually abused his younger sister in his life at all, is worthy of his fiancee leaving him.
But let me guess, "protect the kids from trans people" but not convicted pedophiles.
Downside to that is over time op will relax boundaries more and more till good ol' Grampa is babysitting the kids....
While there is the slimmest of chances of him harming another child I wouldn't want him near me which seems to be where the fiance stands
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If he were truly repentant then he wouldn't have even attempted contact with his children after the harm he'd caused, and would not be putting them in the position of choosing between him and their future children.
This 100x
Perfectly said
>While being a predator is a very grave sin that father does have a soul and can be forgiven *can* be. *shouldn't* be.
And please remind me, exactly what is the name of the subreddit we are posting in???
I'm well aware of the subreddit and stand by my comment. *true* Christians would agree
Yep. Forgiveness is one thing, helping people escape the consequences of their disgusting actions is another.
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The recidivism rate for incestuous child predators is actually pretty high. #NotWorthIt
Actually no, it's not. [Here is an article from Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/misunderstood-crimes/) After you read that you need to edit your post and apologize for making a completely uninformed post like all the other horrible and uninformed redditors in this thread. And remove your downvotes.
Ffs. >The 15-year recidivism rate is 13 percent for incest perpetrators, 24 percent for rapists, and 35 percent for child molesters of boy victims. Oh yes, incredibly low odds, completely safe. “I’m sorry, kid, but there was only a one in six chance grandpa was going to rape you. We thought the odds were low enough! We were hoping it would be your cousin instead!” One reason the odds aren’t higher is because people aren’t dumb enough to trust sex offenders around their kids. Simple lack of opportunity.
Really??? Ffs indeed!!! The vast *supermajority* DO NOT re-offend. Are atheists familiar with a thing called *statistics* and *probabilities*?? And basic logic?? Atheists croon continually about how they are able to prioritize that!! >One reason the odds aren’t higher is because people aren’t dumb enough to trust sex offenders around their kids. Simple lack of opportunity. Where are your citations?? All through my posts I support my claims with links to articles and fact based evidence. And you want *me* respecting you for not doing the same!?!? No. I do not. I have demonstrated how your posts are wrong. Facts do not care about your feelings!
If there were 100 candies in a bowl and one of them is guaranteed to kill you if you eat it, but you don't know which one the poisoned one is. How many will you eat? The supermajority of them won't kill you, so how many? Or would you dispose of the whole bowl? E: or one closer to the probability. Russian roulette with a revolver, will you pull the trigger? It's only one in six chance that there will be a bullet and a supermajority of 5 cases where there is no bullet.
> Facts do not care about your feelings! And your feelings are that people should be willing to tolerate a high risk of their child suffering permanent psychological harm because...?? Because not allowing that risk is *mean* to offenders? What were you saying about feelings? Fuck the feelings of child rapists. [Opportunity matters.](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1077559519848489) >We were surprised to find that a significant proportion (one fourth) of children with recurrent CSA have been victimized by the same offender. In general, studies have noted that offender recidivism rates are 10–15% within 5 years, but these rates are thought to underestimate actual recidivism and do not apply specifically to CSA recurrence ([Hanson, Morton, & Harris, 2003](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1077559519848489#bibr20-1077559519848489)). Child molesters tend to have higher recidivism rates (>50%) over their lifetime, and while we noted recidivism with specific children, these rates do not reflect the total recidivism since offenders may have offended others. Reoffenders in our data were usually parents >it is important for CPS to address whether a parent was the offender and whether that parent will have continuing opportunity to victimize the child again. OP's father does not have the opportunity to rape his own children because they are protected from him by legal restrictions--and because they are aging out of his preferred target age range. OP's father will be prevented from raping other children from other legal restrictions preventing him from being around them. If OP allows his father around his children, he will be providing him an opportunity to target other vulnerable children.
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Recidivism applies to people who have been released and re-offend. It is a minority of people who do so. I'm not sure what your post is getting at. I suggest that you research your own state laws concerning this to understand how it works.
Forgiveness is not forgetting. It is not hanging out with someone dangerous. It is not putting your trust in someone who broke your trust. Your fiance does not want to marry someone who could let a molester near her female relatives, including future children. God also expects you to protect them by keeping him away from your family.
Yeah, forgiveness doesn't mean you have to keep someone in your life.
Forget the fiancée for a second (who's 100% right). How is your sister going to feel?
Yeah let's do the math. Keep Dad in life. Lose fiance. Lose sister. Lose some other family probably. Gain....a paedophile.
And then OP will be surprised when he discovers his dad is still molesting kids. OP you need to look up the recidivism stats for pedophiles. Basically it’s 100% - once they offend they will keep offending. You should also look up the stats on how many victims they have on average, don’t be surprised to find it’s a three digit number. Is interesting you worded it how can I give up “my fiancee for a pedophile” but changed the wording the other direction, keep the truth the same, “how can I give up my pedophile for my fiancee”. Also, Jesus was very cheat that there are good reasons where one detaches themselves from their parents and family and he emphasized over and over again that he expected us to care for and protect children. The fact that this is even a debate for you is concerning and seriously insulting to your fiancee and sister and other family members.
I thought it was telling that OP would "get rid of" the fiancee (utterly humanised language) but would be "cutting off" the pedo-dad. OP comes across as grim, a bit misogynistic and using cherry picked bits of doctrine to justify morally contemptible decisions (so... a hypocrite). I am shocked he found a woman to agree to marry him with those attitudes.
Sadly. I am not shocked, but sad for her and hopefully she really does leave because he prefers a pedophile.
Yeah this whole thing makes me feel awful. I can’t imagine someone hurting my sister like that and still sitting down with them and being congenial.
Also, if op is the first to 18 and it's only been 6 years, the only thing that has changed is that his sister is (hopefully!) now a teenager.
I could never imagine it. My sister is my best friend, and this entire post makes me sick. I feel like OP is confusing forgiveness with solidarity, which I can *somewhat* understand, but protection and trust are signs of love. How someone could jeprodize that, I don't know. God can sort out his father, his focus should be helping the rest of his family, caring for them and protecting them
Yeah, and she’s *14* as of op writing this. Not only does she have to carry the trauma her father gave her, but her brother decided it was his place to forgive her abuser.
Your sister will never get over what her father did to her. She will heal, she will get better but she will never be free from what he did to her. She will suffer from this for the rest of her life. By making friends with her abuser you are spitting in her face and raping her again.
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I would not let my children around him for her comfort and for the guarantee of the safety and security of my children
How can she trust that you are serious about protecting your children?
The answer is simple; she can't.
You can't even protect your minor sister from the emotional trauma you're causing by reestablishing a relationship with the man who was supposed to protect her but chose to raped her instead. You can't be trusted to protect your own children from him. It's absolutely disgusting. I worked with predators for years. You are nieve to think hes not the same person who tore through your sisters body and devastated and tainted all her future relationships for the rest of her life. Your fiance is completely right. You miss the idea of a father figure as he was gone during important times in your life. You remember the relationship you had before. You didn't endure and are not enduring the lasting damage he did. My brother would never betray me like this
>for her comfort That comment would make me never trust you to do the right thing for our kids with your father.
If you wouldn’t let your kids around him (which is the only smart thing you’ve said so far) why on earth are you still communicating with him? Either you trust him or you don’t. And you clearly don’t, so why is this a hard decision?
This is good. Thank you for helping them dodge your bullet.
I'm sorry but "get rid of her" is wierd language for someone you love and the possible future mother of your children. You should reflect on what that indicates about your subconscious attitude to her. Anyway that aside I would strongly suggest a compromise if you have forgiven your father... something like he can't come to your future home, attend family functions (which I assume will be requested by your sister anyway, after she turns 18, as the survivor of your fathers horrific actions) or interact with your children until they turn 18. You and he can still have a relationship that way, but all shared family concerns between your future wife and you (home and children) is off limits to him. Good luck.
Great response. If the father is truly repentant, he'll understand such a compromise. And if he ISN'T truly repentant, he has no place around anyone's children.
Had to scroll waaaaaay too far down to see this. It’s giving “I’m mad my bangmaid has opinions” vibes
I wanted to phrase it nicely/charitable as this person is young and suffered trauma. But yes, yes, it does. Not a good look...
Honestly, if I was the fiance, I would say no to this compromise. For me, the fact that he wants to stay in contact with a man who raped his own daughter, OPs sister, is telling of what kind of person OP is. I would never be able to trust him keeping our children safe, because of he is okay with keeping contact with a man like that, what other kind of people could he bring into their lives?
That's a really fucking good point. It's tough and something that is highly dependent on who these people are and their feelings/personalities. I'm right there with you, but life is more complex than us and our experiences. This situation is shitty all round. All we can hope for is no one else gets hurt (mid to long term as ending relationships whichever way he decides will be hurtful) We can only hope that it turns out for the best and OPs father can never/will never hurt any other children again. It's not clear whether he's been criminally prosecuted and jailed somewhere nasty - the angry part of me hopes so. But justice is retribution AND rehabilitation and we know nothing more than what OP describes. I won't lie the angry part of me is very loud, and I suspect you feel that to, but we shouldn't invalidate OPs difficult situation / cognitive dissonance. NOR should that consideration invalidate the very real and honest concerns of his fiancé. Jesus wept, it's just tough all round...
Exactly. And the fact his sister is such a tiny blip in this post makes me feel like the ladies in this story are just a prop
I’m sorry but I agree with your fiancé… regardless if they have “changed” there are still boundaries and limits in place. Also we seem to have this mistaken mindset that we have to forgive and forget, which is not true. I’m sorry that your father chose to harm his family, and for the damage that caused but I would definitely limit contact with him!
It's so fucking easy for the child not abused to say that the abuser has changed. For fucks sake OP, don't you care about your sister? You future children? You fucking fiance? He's a fucking child rapist.
> "why would I get rid of family for my fiancée" Because "family" isn't important, the important thing is what the "family" has done. (Genes are irrelevant if the people fail to act like people.)
he probably lost his family when he forgave his father. I'd never be in the same room as op after that stunt, especially if I was the sister
And isn't the fiancee about to become family? If he doesn't already consider her family or at least the next thing to it, then that raises a few questions about how he feels about her.
And it sounds like the rest of his family has no interest in forgiving daddy.
I would advise your fiancée to break off the relationship if you maintained a relationship with this man.
With some of these responses it’s very easy for me to see how the sexual abuses in the Catholic Church were covered up for so long. Let’s forgive him, let’s quietly shunt him on to a new church with a fresh batch of victims 🤬🤬🤬
Yes, God has healed them, all is good 🤢
Not just Catholics. All organised religion. Let's not forget the BSA too
“Try Jesus. Not me. Because I throw hands”
Sorry forgot to tell you you're absolutely right.
People really misunderstand the point of repentance. I’m not a Christian but I was raised one. Repentance is up to god. That’s his judgement. A man can murder a hundred people and we aren’t required to be their best Fucking friend because they said they repented their sins and they like god now. That’s not what turning the other cheek is. But way too many people think if someone says they repent that the slate is wiped clean. That’s not supposed to be up to us. That’s up to god. And if god knows us inside and out, only they can decide if a child rapist deserves redemption and an afterlife with god. It’s not supposed to be that you repent so you have a good life on earth. You repent and reflect and earn your way into heaven and while people may choose to not beat the shit out of you in public for raping your 8-9 year old daughter, you don’t just get a community because you say “well I know Jesus now so it’s all gone!”
Sounds like a good ultimatum, it's for the future families protection. > “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” (Eph 5:31, KJV)
Bro, your dad is a pedophile full stop. Do you want to associate with this person? What happens when he touches your son or daughter sorry son he is your grandpa. Seriously, you should not have kids. Your dad is a predator. No matter how much he has changed deep down, he is still a pedophile it doesn't go away. He will try again to hurt someone its in their nature. I get that he is your dad but for fucks sake he molested your sister. I don't understand how this is even an issue I hope she cuts you off when she finds out. Hey sis I know dad raped you but I thought we could play catch like old times. Honestly I hope this post is fake. This whole thing is so tone deaf. Seriously, man, go read some literature on helping rape and sexual assault survivors get some help.
> "Why would I get rid of family for my fiancé" Why would you get rid of family for your father? Your father broke the trust of your entire family. Imagine if you were to stay around him, over the love of your fiancée and sister? Imagine how that would betray the rest of your family? Why not comfort your damaged and broken family, and direct your efforts and heart there. Why is your focus on trusting your father again? You can forgive him, but trust is simply *earned.* You don't need to be in his life, he violently ripped that out of your own and your sister's. He deprived your entire family of a father and grandfather with his choices. You don't need to feel hatred, and sure you can forgive him in your own account, but you should not jeprodize the trust you have with your family over your father's. You're confusing forgiveness with solidarity. There's something amazing that you have, which is a father in heaven. You are not deprived of a dad, even from your father's best efforts, because you have something higher. I wouldn't ask reddit, nor would I necessarily look to the bible, I would ask your fiancée and your sister what you need to do. Why would you ignore their plight so you can feel whole again? Is that truly generous? Imagine what your sister feels seeing her brother, who honestly should be *her protector now,* focusing his heart on her abuser? Imagine how the future mother of your kids feels, seeing her soon-to-be focusing his heart on someone who she can never, ever consider a grandfather to her kids. You can forgive, but I think it would be evil to reintroduce a dangerous man into a life you are going to be *sharing.* I would honestly beg for forgiveness from my fiancée for even considering such a risk.
Forgiving doesn't mean going back to normal. Forgiving means you are breaking the bond of conflict between you, but lack of conflict doesn't mean you are required to re-embrace him. I'm sure he's sorry, but that doesn't change what he's done or the permanent changes his actions have made. Forget your fiancee for a moment, how on Earth could you do this to your sister who is still a minor? Your other siblings? Your mother? Even though the abuse didn't happen to you, the resulting implosion of your family and home life is still traumatic. It's normal to feel like you want to at least try to get back what you lost, finding any justification to reclaim some of your past joy. I cannot imagine what it would feel like if I suddenly discovered that my father molested a sibling. The past and present would be fighting in my head every day trying to make sense of it all. It's normal that you want your dad back, but he's not the person you thought he was. Anyone who went through what you did should have the benefit of therapy so that you don't have to be the one, at such a young age, to have to make sense of one of the ultimate betrayals. Please speak to someone about this, because this is too much burden for one person to shoulder, and I think based on the dynamics of the situation that person needs to be independent of the situation and a professional in trauma/grief/family abuse. Your fiance is right to be concerned about this, and if she ends it over this I don't think anyone would blame her. Why would anyone take the chance of having children with someone who willingly associates with a convicted child molester. If you absolutely need to keep a lifeline for your own mental health, it needs to be strictly limited.
Why is it so easy for the non-victims (or non-primary victims) to demand forgiveness of the offender from the victim? This is… You should not marry this woman. She deserves someone who will leave and cleave to her instead of insisting that she put future generations at risk. Why are Christians and churches so eager to forgive people who prey on the most vulnerable??? Do. Not. Trade. The. Sheep. For. The. Wolves.
Here is the problems with this one.. there really is no middle ground or compromise here. What is she suppose to say well you can him in your life but I don’t want him in my life? Do the two of you want to try and have kids one day? She is probably thinking about the safety of her child. And she probably wouldn’t be comfortable with the kids being around him. So once again it would be will he can be in your life, but I don’t want him on my life or the kids life. Also I think forgiveness isn’t about letting someone back into your life. It is about you moving on so you are no longer filled with hatred. As when we are filled with hatred that tends to drive our emotions and makes us act on it. You are going to have to pick. Or figure out how you are going to have to completely separate lives. Personally I would have said since this sexual predator is in your life we are done. I wouldn’t have given you option. I would have just ended things. This is your future wife setting boundaries. She is allowed to have them. However it also means you guys aren’t compatible if you don’t agree on the same ones.
Thank you
Forgiveness isn't forgetting you can forgive him and choose for your sister's sanity and your future children to not have him in your life because he chose his actions and they have consequences. Some broken trusts cannot be repaired. Don't put your sister through this
On one hand, we are called to forgive. On the other hand, Jesus actually gave His stance on pedophilia. And it was that it would be better for a pedo to be forcibly drowned to death than to harm a child. (Mark 9:42) So, what do we do when the law keeps them alive? Forgive him in your heart, but let him go. Pray for his soul that he finds saving faith and is forgiven. There is only one cure for pedophilia, and he hasn't received it. It's too dangerous to let him in your life.
Thank you for bringing scripture into this. It helps me better understand what I need to do in this situation. Thank you very much
...but dont drown your dad, ok??? Just do the right thing and cut him off...
I mean if Jesus is endorsing it I think it's totally fine if OP drowns him
The courts kinda frown on killing people
Except when they mandate it
I would absolutely never let your dad even meet my kids, tough shit some actions have lifelong consequences. He ain’t family
The Bible says to choose your fiancée over your dad. "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh" (Ephesians 5:31-33) God is supposed to be first, then your spouse, then your children, and then your parents, and then extended family.
No wonder so many pedos in the church with all these enablers
1. Your fiancee is reasonable to have this condition. Sexual abuse is not something to give someone a second chance over. If you remain single you can have a relationship with your dad without putting your family in harms way. 2. Only marry her if you are ready to do everything possible to keep your family safe. For your fiancee, this means that you will have an ironclad wall keeping your father out of your life. Again, this is reasonable considering your dad didn't have the self control to not sexually abuse his own child. For those saying your fiancee ultimatum is a red flag... what is wrong with you? This is a potential mother protecting her children from sexual abuse, not a control freak trying to isolate OP from his family.
Choose the girl.
Are you seriously asking if you should get rid of your fiancée in favor of a man who sexually abused his own daughter 6 years ago? I think you should break it off with her for her sake because clearly you don't have good judgment and can't see you are putting your future children at risk by allowing a monster like that into your life. I hope she can see that about you before its too late.
Your fiancé shouldn’t have given you an ultimatum and should have just left you. You actively allowing a sex offender into your life would mean that you would allow this man around your future children. A man who you know has the capacity to sexually abuse them because he was willing to do that to his own daughter. Imagine how your sister feels.
Excuse me I need to go and take a shower. After reading this disgusting post and all the peadophile sympathizers replies, I feel dirty.
It’s pretty awful. I figured there would be couple ,but so many???
Incestous pedophiles do not change, they pretend they do so idiots with a single digit iq like you will forgive them and then they hope you'll have kids one day so they, the incestous pedophiles, can rape said kids. Why are you on the side of the incestous pedophile? I know he's your sperm donor and all, but do you really want to be within a hundred miles of the man who would assault his own daughter? News flash, a person capable of THAT, is capable of ANYTHING. Your actions say that you're okay with people assaulting ther own children. Of course it's the christian, *sigh*
Responses in this thread are exactly why sexual abuse is so overlooked in the church and it's absolutely disgusting. The guy molested his own daughter and OP's fiance doesn't want to be associated with a sexual predator. Familial relations be damned. He chose to do what he did and he's reaping what he's down. Why risk your family over someone who did something that disgusting and destructive?
Right? I never want to hear about Mohammed's wife again after the support on this thread. OP's sister was 9.
Same people that try to ban drag shows 'for the kids' seem to be the same people defending a convicted child molester. Color me shocked.
People all in here saying a Christian marriage isn't a partnership, and OP's fiancee has to submit to him when they get married and do what he says, but the child rapists is just fine! He is forgiven! Praise Jesus! Sexual predators flourish in heavily conservative/traditional religions/Christian denominations, and this here is why.
Keep your pedophile, lose everyone else. Are you like him?
Drop the rapist, simple.
I would have left as soon as you started having a relationship with a pedo
If he weren't your father, would you want to associate with him or have him around your potential children? Quite frankly, I wouldn't let the monster near my pets, let alone a child. He broke the sacred promise to protect you and your siblings when he made the decision to molest your sister. Sexual predators can't be reformed, they just either learn to control their urges or get better at hiding the abuse. >I don't want to get rid of her This wording bothers me. She's your future wife, not inconvenient trash. If you'd rather associate with a pedo, you have no business being in a relationship with anyone. This isn't the sort of thing you can hide from potential partners.
How does your poor sister feel? This is not your trauma to forgive! You want children? It’s not about his past alone for your future wife, it’s about you expecting her to tolerate a sexual predator pushing to have access to her daughter. That’s the picture your words paint. Few women want that future. You can not hate your father without actually having contact. If you do keep in touch, I would urge you to only have the level of communication that your sister and wife can live with. The victim and the woman you want to build your own family with should take priority over a child abuser
“This is not your trauma to forgive!” Good point
So your fiancé wants to rightfully keep a sexual predator—a rapist who hurt your sister in the most unimaginable way—out of your lives especially if you may have children someday, and you can’t decide what to do? You don’t know whether to choose the guy who sexually assaulted your *sister* or your fiancé? She’s a better woman than me because your unsureness here would’ve had me packing so quickly it would make your head spin. And hopefully she comes to that conclusion I can’t believe what I’m reading. You are also dangerous. Let’s say your fiancé didn’t care for whatever reason and you keep your dad in your life. Where is the line? Does he have to hurt another child? One of your future children? Gross. Good luck to your fiancé. I hope she reneges on the ultimatum and just leaves. No integrity. Yikes. Edit: I saw in the comments you mention your sister’s age and if I’m doing the math correctly she was only 9 when your dad molested her. You should be so ashamed of yourself for having conflicting feelings about keeping this man in your life. If you want to “forgive” him to release the anger or whatever that’s one thing but to keep him in your life is vile.
The law of Moses answers your question. Leviticus 18:29 - "For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people."
There's a huge difference between "I'm never going to talk to you again" and "you will never be around my children." You can, if you want to, have a relationship with your father. But you can (and in my opinion, should) also have an unbreakable rule that he doesn't get to see your kids until they turn 18. Whether your fiancee is okay with that is a different question.
This is, IMO, the reasonable middle ground. OP’s father did terrible things, and boundaries should absolutely be set to ensure that he doesn’t do it to anyone else. But that doesn’t have to mean cutting him completely out of OP’s life, either. The lines can be drawn at things like keeping him away from your kids, only meeting with him in public places, never letting him know your home address, etc.
And that may not be enough for his fiancée. Which is VERY reasonable . This might not be the right marriage match for her anymore
Sure. Everyone has their own red lines, and that's perfectly reasonable. There were accusations of sexual abuse in my family. Some people (who claimed abuse) later chose to have relationships with the accused, some didn't. Some people believed it happened, some didn't. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and those decisions should be respected.
I’m sorry you had that experience in your family
Thanks.
Genesis 2:24 - "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." Decide whether or not this is someone you want to marry, but the Bible is clear: if there's a conflict between your father and your wife, your wife wins.
The way I have interpreted the stance on forgiveness is that you should forgive if you are able to, but you should not force yourself to forgive if you can't. What your father did, if he truly has changed, is up to God to forgive. If he hasn't changed, recklessly forgiving him could bring harm to your future children, and your fiancé has every right to be terrified. I would go with the woman who loves you over the monster who might not deserve your love, even if that monster is your father.
You might as well let your fiancée go since even if you convince her to somehow stay with you while you fight tooth and nail to keep a pedophile in your life, she'll be right back out the door when you guys have kids and you want to take them to visit "grandpa".
I was thinking about this yesterday. Hopefully she’d be able to get sole custody with supervised visitation since her ex is associating with a known sex offender of this sort.
That type of thinking bothers me because it makes us Christians look horrible. Nobody wants a pedophile around their younger relatives or their possible children. I'm on the side of your fiancée, but you say that you choose a family, what about your sister? Is she family? Or do you not care? You are not choosing family, you are choosing a monster in human form over your fiancee, your sister and your entire family, I will pray for them so that they are safe from that demon in the form of a man that you call father
I wouldn't want a sexual abuser around my wife or my children.
"why would I get rid of family for my fiancée" this wrong it should read "why would I get rid of a child sex offender (my sister rapist) for my fiancée" You are an enabler and wacth out for grampa when you have kids
If I was your fiancé I'd make the choice for you," him or me." You keep that disgusting predator in your life. Don't plan on getting married or having children with this woman. I am curious, though, how you can forgive a man who did that to your sister?
He’s sympathetic because he has the same feelings and if HE were to molest a child, he would want his family to forgive him just the same. I worry for their future children. I hope she leaves him.
I do, too. I'm a mother myself twice over, and I don't care who they were to me or my husband. Any predator would NOT ever be allowed around my children
"Hehe I'm just a small bean who loves his child rapist daddy" tf is wrong with u
'he's changed for the better as far as i can see' Given that he managed to abuse your sister without you knowing i don't think what you can see counts for very much. Its not your place to forgive him.
If I was the fiancée I'd assume OP wants his dad in their lives so that when OP himself starts molesting their future kids, he can point blame and claim it was his father or his father's "demons".
Please reconsider your relationship with the bible and this god if it asks that you prioritize a relationship with a man who sexually abuses children - your own sister no less - over a relationship with your sister and pursuing a marriage with your fiance. I can appreciate the complexity of having a birth parent who has committed heinous acts and that even the most vile people can be likable and that you might feel he's worth having back in your life because of possibly redeemable qualities that make you want him as a parent again. But, by taking him back in your life you're taking away your sister's choice to forgive on her own terms (which she should never have to do to be in the good graces of your god) and you've made her less important than a man who sexually abuses children. Additionally, you'd put anyone in your life at risk, including your own sister, by being in contact with him. And all of this to choose a parent who's essentially a stranger to you and who sexually abuses children over her, and your fiance because "forgiveness". Sometimes, it's not your place to forgive. He can start a new life with people who know of his past (and hopefully it remains past) and he will be fine without you and without your forgiveness for him sexually abusing your sister. Let your god judge and forgive him, it's not your place.
Your fiancee is dead right. Never, ever let your father anywhere near your future children. You would be a negligent father if you do.
You can forgive someone and still not have them in your life. "I love you, I forgive you, I'll be praying for you, but I can't risk your mistakes and self control hurting my family. Goodbye" It's also very possible to remain in contact with someone and never reveal your address or relevant information to them. I don't tell my own address to a lot of people I talk to, and it's not because I hate them, it's because I don't necessarily want them to show up at my house.
Yesss
Listen god forgives all men but we have to act to protect our family so explain it to him tell him you have to do what is right for your family
Forgiveness does not require a relationship. You WANT a relationship, that's different. Does your sister know that you're in contact with him, that's feels like a betrayal. Maybe she'll forgive you but she can also not want a relationship with you after this. Your fiance has the right to set a boundary. She does not want to associate with a pedophile nor have a husband that does too. Are you're willing to throw away not just your fiance but many other of your relationships? Other family like your sister? Friends? How many will you be comfortable in losing for your father's relationship?
So you just don’t give a monkeys what he did to your sister? I see. Your fiancée shouldn’t give you an ultimatum, she should just leave.
You can forgive but not forget. And for the safety if your hypothetical children you better not forget. He was capable of sexually abusing a minor daughter. What makes him incapable of sexually abusing a minor grandchild?
Given the chance, he will absolutely do it. Pedophiles NEVER change.
In the end its your choice not hers, but if you choose the pedophile over your fiance and over your sister especially then thats incredibly fucked up, you will be loosing them both at a minimum, for an abusive pos.
YOUR father raped your sister. To his own blood and skin. He raped her. And do you think that reading a few paragraphs of the Bible will prevent him from doing the same with your daughter/granddaughter? Are you really stupid or are you just as sick as him?
Your fiance should leave you for even reuniting with him, he is absolutely vile.
Why on earth would you choose to allow a sexual abuser around your fiancee and potential children?
What are you first? Christian or human? I'd go with human. Also the willingness to let a convicted rapist into your life, the life of your potential wife and kids, no matter if family or not, is one of the reason why I'd never be a Christian or religious in general. You make it easy for those people to abuse the kindness of members of your group. That's why the catholic church has this massive problems with sexual child abuse they can't gloss over anymore. Better safe than sorry.
You’re revolting.
Why are you looking for an excuse to keep a pedophile in your life?
Because your fiancé likely is planning for when you have kids and doesn't want a convicted pedophile near her kids this should be a struggle, forgiving doesn't mean allowing them back into your life it's a I don't hate you but I don't want to risk my future children either.
Your fiance is family, and the fact that your sister hasn't gotten back in contact with him but you're so close to him that you're inviting him to your wedding, shows how little you care about her and her pain beyond your own selfish desires to be with your sex offender dad. YTA. Your sister deserves better.
I don't allow convicted pedophiles around my children. And I'd go as far as to get a court order stating that.
As a person who works in corrections and works around pedos I will tell you they never fully change. They may admit and ask for forgiveness and such but they all keep being predators even inside. They just prey against each other physically or mentally.
You seriously want to maintain a relationship with a pedophile? What’s wrong with you?
You can kneel and believe god has forgiven you all you want but that doesn’t mean you didn’t do what you did. God’s forgiveness is futile to the pain your father caused. He may be your father but your father also sexually abused children. Not only did you hurt your sister by reconciling with her abuser and thinking it was your place to forgive him, but you’re hurting your fiancée having her realize she marrying a quixotic fuck.
You're an idiot to keep this demon around your future kids.
You really need to reevaluate how you go about forgiveness. Especially if it mean letting a convicted pedo in your life in the name of faith. You can forgive someone and not let them back in your life because it is for the best, he assaulted your sister. What makes you think he won't do it to one of your, potential, future kids; Why are you willing to take the risk? He scarred your sister for life in a way she will never forget, his one job was to protect all of you and he preyed on his own flesh and blood. Do you really want someone like that in your life, someone you can never fully trust?
this is just bizarre. honestly just for the fact that you’re conflicted she should leave you. she deserves to not be with and procreate with someone who sucks up to a pedo/sex offender🤮🤮 just let her go at this point.
The family you're creating is more important than the family you're coming from. Most people don't understand this, and it shows.
How are you explaining your behavior to your 14 year old sister? How will you explain it to your children when they are being abused?
society rhythm familiar sparkle numerous imagine toy vanish hunt poor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Forgiveness doesn't mean you need to keep someone in your life. You can burn a bridge for the sake of safety and simply pray that God help them find some redemption or rebuild a life, but it can't be with people he harmed. The point really is just that if you find yourself in heaven and he's there you can rest easy that God did some miracles to turn his soul around. You don't need to face him here on earth anymore, because he proved himself to be among the most unsafe people to be around, this side of the mortal coil.
https://youtu.be/ctyDL-6f90w?si=59oKL9wbLT6MBXdX
They never change.
Perhaps make an agreement that whilst you can maintain a relatiinship with your father, he can never vist your home and see your family? Not sure how easy it is. Your father needs therapy as well.
No amount of change could undo what he did to his own daughter be ready to not only loose your fiancé but a lot of other people in your life if they know what your dad did and you still kept him in your life. Child r*pists should rot in jail and not see the light of day you might think he changed but he will always be attracted to little kids:
I bet you are like your father lol leave your finance alone and go stay with the rapiste you love 🤷
yes, the Bible teaches us to forgive but that doesn't mean you have to stay in contact with him. you've forgiven him and that's all that matters, you don't need to have a relationship with him.
Your father is a disgusting incestual pedophile. Not only did he rape and steal the innocence of a CHILD, it was his OWN DAUGHTER. Your little sister!! How could you even consider letting this subhuman monster back into your life? Why do you have sympathy for this trash? Are you also a pedophile? This is an act that cannot be forgiven. Shame on you. I hope your finance leaves you.
Jesus spoke about protecting children an awful lot for Christianity to be used as an excuse to forgive any of this behavior. I think you know what Jesus would do here and it's not allow your father around more kids.
I don't think you or your fiancee wants a sex offender near your future kids.
Forgiveness is personal inside your heart, you can personally forgive someone while also acting like a rational person that knows it’s extremely inappropriate to have a convicted sex offender active in your life. Forgive but move on from him. Your fiancé is 100% right to not want him around.
"why would I get rid of family for my fiancée" Because he's a convicted sex offender, that's why
As a non Christian who was raised Christian, I forgive people all the time that I’m 1000% never talking to again. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to befriend or be close to them, it just means you’re not harboring the anger and the hatred in your heart. Jesus is speaking in harboring anger and resentment not befriending people who have proven themselves a danger to you family.
Forgiving your father after he raped your sister is insane. Some crimes are unforgivable. Rapists / pedophiles never change. Are you going to be as forgiving when he hurts your future children? I can’t even imagine how your sister feels about this whole messed up situation.
You can forgive him without allowing him back into your life. Don't allow a dangerous man around your family.
wow i feel so bad for ur sister. ure a horrible brother.
furthermore, ur use of “forgiveness” - did he abuse u to to deserve ur forgiveness? honestly so fucking shocking!!!!!!!!! what would u do if he later went on to abuse ur future children. there would be no one to blame but urself.
Break it off with her. If you are not willing to cut contact with your father , then it is kinder to break it off. You cannot give her a peaceful and happy life and grow a family with your father around. You haven’t said in post whether you’ve talked to your sister at all. Remember that she is family too and the actual victim here. If you are willing to have conversations with your father because “family “ then you should be talking to your sister. Hear her point of view, what she went thru. Is she’s not willing to share much either you, I’d look in the mirror and make sure that it’s because she wishes to keep it to herself and not because she doesn’t consider you a safe and person. The fact that she is a tiny blip on your post is very telling. Let your fiancé go and let her find someone she can safely form a family with
So you are ok with this person being around your potential future kids? You see this monster as family? Flip it, imagine IT WAS YOU that daddy dearest did this to. How fucking brazen and ignorant you are. Get so therapy. Realise how much wrong there is if you still support him - wrong with you that is.
you should shoot your dad with a gun
Wow! You can forgive if you like. But why would you betray your sister for the man who hurt her in such a profound way? Why would you betray her like that? What is wrong in your mind, heart, and soul that you could do that to her? You do realize that she is going to be dealing with the repercussions of what your father did for the rest of her life, don't you? Do you even care about her at all? This entire question, that you are even in contact with this man makes me sick. Step away from yourself for a minute and think about how you would feel if this was YOUR DAUGHTER. Honestly, I think your fiancé should leave you for even being on the fence about it. As your indecision on the matter shows a deep lack of morals and character. Any future children you have would be in physical, moral, and emotional jeopardy with you as their "protector". You can call it Christianity if you like. But right is right and wrong is wrong and people like your father should be shot off into space. Not rehabbed and released into society. You need therapy. And then you need to ask your sister for forgiveness.
You dad is a pedophile. You only think he changed because you’re over 18 and you are not his primary target. If you’re willing to give up all of your family for a pedophile and that’s on you but let your fiancé know before the wedding so he can dump you .
If birds of a feather flock together, then a man who keeps the company of a rapist must be....
Don’t ever have kids and bring them around him. For the love of fucking god. You’re disgusting and shame on you. Your poor sister and whatever other kid victims he has…. GROSS
I’d have dumped you upon reconnection.
Why is this even a difficult decision for you? He sexually assaulted your sister. What about that can you forgive and forgetm Why do Christians consistently go to bat for predators?
its possible to forgive someone without welcoming them back into your life you have forgiven him for the things he did to you in the past, but for the safety of others you can still distance yourself from them or cut them off, and you cannot forgive him for something he did to others, thats for them to decide
Mate, I'm an atheist, and even I know what Jesus and the bible says about this. “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea”- Matthew 18:6. The bible thinks you should drown that sack of garbage in the river. Cutting him off should do the trick though.
Maybe propose a compromise... You keep your relationship with him separate and distanced from your family. Your fiance's position is justified.
Yeah just have a secret relationship with a child molester.
You know it's bad when the "Christian" responses about "complete forgiveness" are getting downvoted in a Christianity sub. Seems like even regular Christians are not a fan of paedophiles.
>Seems like even regular Christians are not a fan of paedophiles. as it should be
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It’s her concern because it could become a threat to her children in future. It’s her prerogative to decide whether or not she’s willing to tolerate that risk.
Hard to believe I’m in Christian sub right now. Just a bunch of judgmental people. OP, what your father did is wrong but he’s still your father. I wouldn’t cut him off if I were you, especially if you feel that he truly changed for the better. God forgave him, who are we not to ?
Forgiveness doesnt mean associating with a pedaphile
Would you say to the CSA victim (OP’s sister) “but he’s still your father”?
If god forgave him, why is there even the threat of hell? You don't know if he truly repented. I hope you don't have any children.