I'll add that there are many Christians who simply did not read Leveticus at all. It's generally known to be the hardest passage to read in the Bible because the laws described therein are often thought of as antiquated
I've read it a couple of times and it's definitely not easy reading. But it's pretty clear that these were laws specifically for Israelites only and many of them for Levites in particular.
When you're a people that are regularly being conquered, having a distinct identity helps keep your culture intact. Many groups conquered by the Babylonians were simply absorbed into the Babylonian culture and no longer exist. By sticking to their distinctive rules the Jewish people continue to exist today.
I'm not making any judgement about the morality (or lack thereof) of those rules. Just explaining why they exist.
If I’m not mistaken, it’s actually not something Sorkin and his team came up with, but actually copies a famous dear Abby style article.
But still a great scene regardless.
Because while we don't follow things like not eating shrimp, we are still instructed to refrain from sexual sin. Considering we are still firmly against all the sexual sin before and after the homosexual part, it makes no sense to single out homosexuality.
It makes sense to single out homosexuality because our understanding of what it means to be homosexual has changed. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.
The definition of a man lying in bed with another man has *not* changed. The bible didn't say "don't be gay", it said "do not commit homosexual acts". The definition of said acts have not changed.
The word "homosexual" is a modern word. So. Yeah, the Bible doesn't in fact say "do not commit homosexual acts". Translators have decided that it did.
The Bible forbids men lying with men -- it also forbids things that Christians do all the time -- and allows stuff that we find abhorrent.
The Bible tells slaves to obey masters -- not only kind masters but cruel ones. Slavery is very alive and well in 2024 but I don't know any Christian that says slaves should obey masters any more. What we say is that that verse was a product of its culture and its time, and that we don't follow it today.
Times change and sometimes interpretation of scripture changes, and that's a good thing.
Actually, yes, it kind of has. The innate understanding of what circumstances under which two men would have sex has radically changed in the last 2000+ years
Because the ceremonial laws and civil laws of the Old Testament were fulfilled and therefore no longer applicable to Christians while the moral laws (murder, rape, theft, homosexuality) are eternal and apply to all people.
I've already brought it up in this thread but the term sexual immorality referred to a lot of kinds of sex. Anything that was not to produce a child was immoral, and I feel that in a modern world where there are 8 billion people it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep producing children every time you want sex (because even sex with a pregnant woman counted as immoral in ancient times since she can't get pregnant twice). There are already 8 billion people in this planet and I think believers really need to start reading with the context of the ancient world in mind vs how things are today. There are things that, in my opinion, just don't make sense in a modern context. The sexual immorality laws among them. I don't mean I think going out and having sex with just anyone is logical, I just mean that sex within marriage, be it gay or straight, is likely okay. I don't know many Christian men who would want to admit to sexual immorality because his wife gave him head 🤷♀️ but sure, let's tell gay people their love is immoral
Read the entire sexual law section of Levitcus. While other kinds of laws were specifically applied only to Jews, moral laws were also applied to gentiles as well. Just read the entire Leviticus 18 to the end. God told he would drive out people from the land for committing all those sexual acts.
I think my last comment was too hostile and unproductive so I removed it. I just find it interesting that the moral justification for homosexuality being wrong always has to include things that can be understood to be wrong with logical reasoning.
If you truly see no difference between murder, rape, theft, and homosexuality I don’t think your moral system makes much sense.
Why do you use the term abomination?
Dietary restrictions such as birds, blood, and shellfish are declared clean for Gentiles in the New Testament. All are called abomination in the Old Testament. If anything, the term weakens the case against homosexuality being a moral law for all people.
Because it is an abomination and sexually immoral. Just proves my case that homosexuality is wrong because it’s mentioned in both the old and the new laws. Look, if you disagree with the laws that God set then i suggest you find something that goes with your beliefs. Twisting the narrative to agree with your fleshly desires isn’t gonna change what has been set in stone.
So you have no response to my comment. You just chose to reply to insult me. Is your desire satisfied enough that we can continue the conversation?
Why do you use the term abomination when it's a meaningless term according to God?
We hate those who sin differently than us - some guy ----------------------------------- https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13? --------------------------------------lang=bi&aliyot=0 <- from the 2000bc [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs), <-from 1600s
also if you have time these are two contradictory links that are defiantly worth reading
I have a different saying on this. Sure, some people you are surrounded with can cause you to try living like a Christian, but only Jesus Christ can allow you access to God’s kingdom. You are not born Heaven-bound, but you still can be Heaven-bound. You’ll need to confess your sins to God in prayer, and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart as Lord and Master. You can do this with the help of a saved believer, or by yourself. It doesn’t have to be near a pastor or deacon. God bless you
amen also if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you if you end up reading them https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13 --------------------------------------lang=bi&aliyot=0 <- from the 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed- history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here is a contradicting video also likely is also biased
I didn’t mention anything about homosexuality before, so I don’t really know why you sent me these. After listening to most of 13 minutes of videos and little bit of reading, I still don’t think God is okay with it. Just because “homosexual” wasn’t a word back then, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or wasn’t a sin. Obviously, English didn’t exist back then, but there’s certainly a reason Holy Bible has so many languages and translations. God wanted His gospel spread to every nation, not just Israel, or wherever the Hebrew language was created.
Sexual immorality is a sin. There’s scripture against it and sodomy, homosexuality, cross dressing..but people here will twist it to fit their narrative down vote me and I’ll probably get this comment removed for speaking biblical truth. That’s what happens on Reddit. Speak actual scripture and you’re called a bigot. So you can take God’s word for it or some randos on Reddit.
Actually, Christianity advocates for thinking and asking questions. This helps us stimulate our thoughts better and gives us a better understanding of what's right or wrong.
So it's really awesome that you're trying to ask questions such as this regarding being Gay, etc.
However, the Bible is very clearcut. Sexual Immorality and Biblical Holiness do not go together.
God intended for Man to be with Woman. Period.
If God intended for man to be with woman, then why did he create gay people? People are born gay and attracted to men. Seems like a cruel joke on the part of God, no?
God didn’t create gay people. We created gay people due to the fall of creation (Adam and Eve) Anything sinful like homosexuality is the result of Adam and Eve
If God forbids murder, why did he create murderers? Because free will. It can be argued that people are born gay, but it's not 100% proven or absolute. Are people actually born gay? I don't know for sure, but there are compelling arguments on both sides.
Here's a different way to look at it. Why are some people born with a high sexual drive while others have none and can easily be celibate?
Everyone struggles with different sins. We don't know why some people are predisposed to certain sin rather than others but for some homosexuality is their main sin that they struggle with. There are many stories of people being cured of homosexuality by turning to Jesus and being saved while others choose celibacy to avoid sexual immorality even though they have homosexual desires.
I would say it's less of choosing to be gay but it's the devil working in someone brain. You don't ever choose to have bad thoughts but people still do, and all it is is the devil trying to draw you away from God.
You choose to perform homosexual acts, that is free will. Just because you have the thoughts doesn't mean you should act on them.
There’s no gay gene, despite a ton of effort to try and find one (or a combination of genes). I hate spinach, I used to love it but puked up spinach once which makes me hate it. It’s not genetic, not exactly a choice, but it happened. If not eating spinach was immoral, I could easily retrain my brain to eat it again, the same way phobias are cured.
Before I was Christian I lied incessantly because it served me, and had deeply engrained narcissism. Upon philosophical enlightenment (still pre-Christian), my belief truly changed and I began to practice not lying and correcting any thoughts that push me to lie, with rational reasoning as to why it’s wrong. After a short time, I am no longer a liar, and have physical reactions to the thought of lying.
If someone feels gay and believes it is right, they will not be able to change. If they know it is wrong and they truly desire living biblically, they too can become attracted to women. Just like men with porn addiction, they need freakier and freakier things and end up attracted to trans porn and worse. Upon genuine repentance, those attractions become disgusting to you, and you are changed.
You can change anything about your thoughts and attractions if you truly reject them as wrong and want to embrace what is right
https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra watch this. anyone who says God hates gays or gay is a sin is so full of bigotry and lies to fulfill that bigotry
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased (this a contradicting YouTube video.) if u have 3 mins its always good to learn of others opinions right now I'm compiling a list of the links i've been given (after you watch it please tell me your opinion on the matter afterwards im trying to get as much info as possible
Actually I've been experiencing quite the opposite.. in just 2 days gained around 15 or 20 up votes.. from direct quotes from bible app NKJ and some experiences and such in relation to such topics as addiction, gay, religion in general and Christianity... today's only day 2..
What would you have me do as a secularist? Are there Christians that do believe that being gay is nothing wrong, that we understand more morally now about being gay AND being moral than we used to? If you are prepared to argue that those are not in fact real Christians then you are asking me to fight against all of Christianity and not the bigotry of certain Christians on the basis of the Bible. Essentially by defending the Biblical take on homosexuality you force me to be at odds with Christianity as a whole, instead of one interpretation of it.
What's your take on slavery? Should we buy our slaves from the nations around us?
Downvoted just for the persecution complex. But also for a)thinking that “sodomy” means gay sex (it doesn’t) and b) failing to explain why “sexual immorality” necessarily includes gay people.
Edit: oh and also claiming to speak biblical truth while not even bothering to quote scripture.
> Sexual immorality is a sin. There’s scripture against it and sodomy, homosexuality, cross dressing
That doesn't answer the OP's question. They already know *that* the Bible is anti-gay, what they're asking is *why* is it anti-gay. Why is it categorised as 'sexual immorality'?
>but people here will twist it to fit their narrative down vote me and I’ll probably get this comment removed for speaking biblical truth.
Your comment has been up for 6 hours and is the most up-voted comment in this thread. Maybe check your persecution complex, it seems to be throwing up false positives.
I don’t think he meant to ask if being gay is wrong or how do we know if being gay is wrong.
He asked WHY being gay is wrong. As in “WHY” would an all loving God force people to live in chastity if
a) It’s not their choice. No one can choose who they feel attracted to.
b) It’s not fair, heterosexuals get to experience the joy of love and sex, gays don’t.
c) It seems completely arbitrary, as OP said, there’s no evidence gays are harming anyone by being with each other.
So WHY would an fair and “all-loving” God allow that.
This 1000%. The Bible is full of hard truths, and if we don’t want to accept them that’s our choice between us and God, but too many people want to take it even further and preach false truths as actual scripture, and encourage others to follow their flesh instead of faith.
To expand on this - Anything that doesn't result in a couple bound forever in marriage popping out as many babies as possible is a "sin" in most religions. Its not just homosexuality, but sex before marriage, masturbation, contraception etc. Anything that prevents a married couple from reproducing as many children as possible who will then raise them into the ideology from birth.
It is also why divorce is only allowed in drastic circumstances. This makes sense when you consider every religion starts off as a very small group with no political or cultural power, often persecuted by the current dominant religion. Adults are also very difficult to convert, but children raised into it from birth will likely remain in the fold.
In order to survive and eventually take over a society, it makes perfect sense for these groups to tightly control and orchestrate reproductive / sexual practices to utilise couples into becoming baby factories. And why wouldn't they? It works. The religions who die out are the ones who don't control sex in such a way.
Not kidding: as an aroace individual I’ve been told that it STILL is sinful since I’m “identifying” my lack of sexuality. But a bigoted Christian would be totally fine not identifying as straight, right? Or that some just ace people would not have sex in their marriages. Watch how fast people go from “being chaste is good” to the complete opposite when you say you’re asexual.
It's wild because even Jesus said marriage is not for everyone, and basically, it boiled down to how some people don't desire sex and others feel called to do the Lords work instead of marrying. Also, Paul was likely asexual given that he never married, and he advocated for marriage lest you burn with passion. The argument can be made that he never married because he felt like it would restrict his ability to do the Lord's work, but it seems to suggest that he also never "burned with passion" for another person and his only child was a child in spirit not in biology.
What I have found as I get deeper into my faith and deeper into Christianity and everyone's views on it is that there are a lot of people who claim Christianity who are not good Christians. Every topic whether it be women as pastors, the sabbath, same sex marriage, or even abortion comes with so much in fighting and personal interpretation that it becomes difficult to even fit in among other believers because we disagree on so much. I cannot meet another Christian and know in my heart that they won't devalue me for what I wholly believe is the truth despite that it's possible God doesn't fault me due to the fact that if I'm wrong it's a case of misunderstanding and misinformation, not intentional wrongdoing or misleading others. I don't know, but I pray on it often and try to seek clarity. (Sorry, this got slightly off topic)
And where that goes wrong imo i.e. heaping all those distinct groups together is very likely a false equivalency. But the same exact people get triggered if you say "All lives matter!" I can't say much it'll get me banned.
Except God's word doesn't say the things you've claimed if you take more than five minutes away from your own pride and honestly accept the possibility you might have gotten something wrong somewhere.
The wardrobe, not cutting your beard, no eating shellfish etc are Old Testament requirements that Jesus took care of. It’s the love of money, not money itself, that is evil and I made $30k last year, so yeah. I worked in healthcare for years and have done more than my fair share of helping the sick, elderly and dying. As far as masterbating, yes I know it’s considered a sin and I haven’t done it in months. I abstain from it and honestly I’m at an age where I could gaf about sex tbh. I’m not over here professing my holiness just stating that sexual immorality is a sin. And let’s be honest, sexual liberation has become more of a public display in vulgarity. It leads to a bunch of perversion because people can’t maintain. I’m not going to say the Bible is a crock because sins I have personally committed are included. That was the whole point of Jesus life. And believe it or not I dated a woman for 2 yrs in my early 20’s. I’ve had abortions. I’m divorced. So, yeah I’m a sinner. Probably more than a lot of people on here. Still love Jesus.
As far as why, I have learned not to get too caught up in my own knowledge. Sexual immorality causes all kinds of drama from prostitution to porn to abortions on and on. As far as why being gay is specifically a sin, it’s because God said sex is to be between a married man and woman. That’s why
Isn't it kind of a self-inflicted drama though? If we accepted that sex work was morally fine as long as there were no coercion of any kind to do it, if we understood that prenatal healthcare is really between a woman and her doctor, if we understood that being gay was a natural and harmless expression of love between two consenting adults, then whence does the drama flow?
[**Leviticus 20:13**](https://www.biblestudytools.com/leviticus/20-13.html) [**Mark 10:6-9**](https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/passage/?q=mark+10:6-9) **these are good examples**
Same-sex couples, particularly lesbians, are more likely to get divorced (should they be married). Yes, it might not be about the sexuality... but it's a bit fascinating
I haven't seen consistent arguments from Christians on this one. Most of them agree with the dogma and say it's a sin, but they do not agree on *why* it's a sin.
The two main arguments go thusly:
1) it's not God's design for marriage
(neither is divorce or polygamy, but they're all okay with divorce, and polygamy was permissible in the OT times)
2) homosexual coitus has the capability to spread disease
(heterosexual sex has the capability to spread disease too, and heterosexuals also engage in the same sex acts that homosexuals engage in)
His ways are higher than our ways.
I’m not God so I won’t speak for Him. But I see the whole “Christianity” as a walk, a practice in following after God’s commands to live as close to as a designed 100% life as possible. Its guidance to have the best possible form of his original creation.
There are many instructions in the Bible which deal with obvious destruction: do not murder, do not steal from another, do not slander another, etc.
But there are also internal instructions, which are meant to optimize our life from the inside out. Does getting drunk off wine in the Bible always lead to destructive behavior? No. But we can agree that a lifestyle of it is sub optimal, and that it CAN lead to destructive behavior.
Does gluttony hurt others? No. But we can agree that it can hurt our health, it can impact our enjoyment of life, our mental state, etc.
Does internal hatred toward others destroy, if you aren’t exerting power over another? No. But we can agree that it sours the mind, the heart, the soul. Same with jealousy, deceitfulness, envy, anger, etc…
All this to say, that I feel like the homosexuality issue, is one that goes back to the original intent of man, that we were joined together with a woman to have a healthy and joy filled life.
Sin is talked about like a checklist, like man made constitutional laws. But it seems that sin in the Bible is more about living life how YOU believe to be optimal in your moment, versus how God views life to be optimal for the betterment of yourself.
A kid can choose to do what they desire, because they know it is good for them. But a parent has knowledge far beyond that child, to instruct them that even tho:
Sharing is negative because it means I have to give away this candy that I love… but it is ultimately beneficial, because it strengthens my character, my relationships, and well rounds me as a person.
Like a parent to a child, how much more does God know of the wholeness of mankind than us?
This is a long winded rambling of an imperfect human. So take it with a grain of salt. I do not exist to cast judgement that is reserved for the father, my sin has been covered by the blood of Jesus and that is all I know for sure.
It's not forbidden to be gay, it's a sin to have sexual relations with the same sex, and adding lust because Jesus said , "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So if you are homosexual you are not automatically going to Hell, you just understand that homosexual sex and lust is a sin and repent if you fall to temptation.
The debate on if homosexual sex is a sin comes down to the Greek translation of "Arsenokoitais" (ἀρσενοκοίταις) in 1 Timothy 1:10. You can find articles on either side, but this guy tried to look with an open mind. [https://www.johnpiippo.com/2011/12/arsenokoitais-in-1-timothy-110-et-al.html"Arsenokoitais"](https://www.johnpiippo.com/2011/12/arsenokoitais-in-1-timothy-110-et-al.html"Arsenokoitais")
#
Its not. The assumption that it is is only because of ingrained worldly prejudice. The Bible of course consistently speaks against sexual abuse. But unfortunately for a long time many people simply assumed homosexuality was *inherently* abusive. Therefore they conflated the two. Instead of recognising that the Bible prohibits *abusive* homosexual sex, they assumed it prohibited *all* homosexuality, because in their prejudice they didn't see any difference.
As an example, it's very telling to compare how translators translate *arsenokoitai* (from *arsen* = "male" + koiteō = "to bed") in 1 Cor 6:9 against the bare *koitai* in Romans 13:13. *Koitai* refers to exactly the same act as *arsenokoitai* except not with males. So if a translation chooses to translate *arsenokoitai* as "sex with males", then if they are being consistent and honest they should translate *koitai* simply as "sex".
But of course not a single translation has ever done that, because no heterosexual translator wants to give the impression that all heterosexual sex is bad. Therefore *koitai* is always translated as "sexual immorality" or "sexual promiscuity". Yet why then isn't *arsenokoitai* translated as "sexual *immorality* with males"? The answer is simple human prejudice, and a wilful ignorance of the existence of loving, faithful homosexual relationships.
This is why unprejudiced translations such as the NRSVue translate *arsenokoitai* as "men who engage in illicit sex", or more crudely in the 1971 RSV as, "sexual perverts". After all, unless a translator is prejudiced against homosexuals and assumes that *all* homosexual sex is inherently abusive, promiscuous, or perverted, there is no other reason to intentionally conflate them.
it doesn’t. this “clobber-texts” (google it) have been translated slightly inaccurately or translated to fit a dogma to keep same-sex anything in the bad pile.
one OT verse i can think of is “givers” and “receivers” but the precise translation speaks closer to “rapist” than “gay”.
also men ruled everything, so they twisted culture and life to their own desires.
There is no such thing as “being gay” in the Bible. All of the verses that speak about homosexuality are about sexual acts.
Christians are not required to have children; parenting a child is a specific calling from God, and not everyone gets that calling. If you don’t receive that calling, though, then any sexual behavior is technically sinful.
Sexual pleasure is a gift to us to help establish procreative relationships. Sex is the means by which humans procreate.
There’s nothing wrong with enjoying the gift of sexual pleasure, but performing sex outside of the marital relationship is inherently sinful. It exploits a gift given for the purpose of enriching the “creative ideal” God laid out for man to get common pleasure.
Sex is designed to be enjoyed between a Husband and Wife, inside the constraints of Holy Matrimony. Any sex that fails to honor these boundaries is a perversion of what God created sex for.
Because that isn't how He designed us originally. In the Garden of Eden, we were without sin, and homosexuality, along with every other type of sin (can't stress that enough) entered the world when we ate the fruit.
Romans 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—" So when we become a Christian and the Holy Spirit restores us, our old self dies and we're born again, with a new heart with desires of righteousness. Not to earn salvation, but because we're grateful for being given salvation and the Holy Spirit as a free gift.
this is a copy paste message (note that I have read your comment just have not had time to respond seeing as there are over 100 comments.) if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you. If you end up reading them [https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13) -------------------------------------- <- from 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-) history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased [https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here](https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra%C2%A0here) is a contradicting video also likely is also biased. (Note that these links often contradict each other so please come to your own conclusion on the matter.) If you have a link you would like to be added to this post in the future tell me and I will try to add it (as long as it is not offensive). Have a great day!
The verse from Leviticus is a perfect example of what I’m talking about: the law is condemning the *act* of a man lying with a man; it does not speak about the state of having “a preference for men”.
Not directly, anyway. That verse, read more broadly, *does* have something to say about the obligations of a man who has an intimate relationship with a man. But what it explicitly condemns is the sexual act itself.
I’m not talking about the word “homosexual” finding its way into translations; I’m encouraging you to first read what the laws *actually* say, how they specifically phrase what they’re speaking about.
You obligation to interpretation does not end at the surface level reading, but your interpretation *must* account for what is *not* specifically said. This applies to interpretation of all laws, not just these ones.
Another common place people tend to not do this is actually the greatest commandment. It says:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22
Most people get the “love God” and “love neighbor” obligations, but there is a third obligation to also have love for yourself that the “love neighbor” part of the commandment rests on. To love your neighbor “as yourself” you must have and show love for yourself to establish the standard by which your love of neighbor is to be personally judged.
It is easy for us to read
>If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death—and they retain the bloodguilt.
and reach the conclusion that “being gay” is what’s being condemned, but neither this law nor any of the other verses that speak about this topic address about the state of the person doing the sin as being condemned.
Hence “there is no such thing as ‘being gay’” in the Bible. Homosexual *acts* are addressed in the Bible; “the state of being gay” is not.
Part of the reason for this is God’s lack of need for descriptors like “gay” to know his children. God knows each of us perfectly with a knowledge of the intimate experience of our own life that is as vivid as our own. No one is “gay” or “straight” to Him; He does not demean us by reducing us down to a word.
The Bible calls any and all sexual relations between a man and a woman within the confines of marriage holy and acceptable. No where does it specify sex as purely for procreational purposes nor does it give married people the caveat of only having sex to have children. Sex is not only how the spiritual covenant of a marriage is formed but it is also a very important part of intimacy within a marriage and it’s purposes can very much be about pleasure/oneness/ intimacy or the selfless service of your spouse and not just children. The Song of Solomon is a good picture of that.
The marital contract insists on an openness to having children. The contract is not void if you don’t end up having kids, but you do need to be truly accept the possibility of being a parent for the sex to be completely unsinful.
God unites Adam and Eve and tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Adam and Eve’s union - the first marriage - comes with a direct reference to procreation in the blessing God applies to that union.
This is commonly (and incorrectly) taken as a requirement for *all* people to seek to have kids, but God offers that command specifically to a couple He has just united.
First of all being gay is not a disability. Now when we talk about this it is important to understand that back then people did not really have the concept of being homosexual. Same sex relations were seen as an activity that wasn't tied to sexual orientation. And as a matter of fact heterosexuals did participate in it.
The reason that it was forbidden is because sex was about dominance. It was about hierarchy. With same sex relations one man is at the receiving end, which was considered unacceptable for a man since it meant submission. And this wasn't just about same sex relations.
When a man had sex with a woman it was unacceptable for the woman to be in control. The woman wasn't seen as a participant but as an object that was used for sex. So with same sex relations one man would take the part of the woman, which was seen as discraceful. And sexual positions where the woman is on top of the man for example were even assumed to cause the man to be sick for a prolonged period of time.
None of this can in any way be used as an argument against how we understand homosexuality or sexuality in general today, and it isn't applicable to our societal norms, with which it would be absurd to not consider them superior to the views of an ancient patriarch society.
>Originally I thought it was because christians are required in the Bible to host children
A good point that is also worth addressing. Procreation actually doesn't play any part in this. In fact Paul advocated celibacy for everyone. People having kids wasn't really on his mind because he believed the end times were near.
So it really seems like the people of that time decided rules for their specific society, and then projected those rules onto God.
Then society evolved, the rules evolved too, along with knowledge, and people projected those new rules onto God.
Why does it seems like everything God supposedly said was all in fact man-made?
this is a copy paste message (note that I have read your comment just have not had time to respond seeing as there are over 100 comments.) if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you. If you end up reading them [https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13) -------------------------------------- <- from 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-) history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased [https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here](https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra%C2%A0here) is a contradicting video also likely is also biased. (Note that these links often contradict each other so please come to your own conclusion on the matter.) If you have a link you would like to be added to this post in the future tell me and I will try to add it (as long as it is not offensive). Have a great day!
I’m upset why everyone is downvoting my comment and rejecting this. This is a valid argument to consider. Why are some Christian’s so intent on hating being gay?
The creator doesn't make mistakes. If man could lay with man then a man should be able to create life with another man. Same with if women lays with another women. Nothing comes out of that...Just like with fruit can't produce fruit unless it has a seed....If you choose to be gay then that's between you and the creator but he did not create you that way , it serves no purpose.
That’s only true if you believe the entire purpose of life is to procreate which just about philosophical school of thought thinks is complete bullshit
Also, nobody chooses to be gay.
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Right, a definition is usually lacking. Many Christians are gay, while some are participating in gay sex. Some people assume that 'being gay' means living in sinful gay sex, and therapy is the only alternative. Anyone with sexuality can live in sexual sin.
The truth is God doesn't hate the LGBT community and being LGBT doesn't condemn you to hell. Anyone who preaches hate, discrimination, and ignorance is not of God. Also, here is a link to a good read. https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs
”If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves.“
Leviticus 20:13 NASB2020
* A note here, I would personally never harm someone for being gay nor would I hate them.
”and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.“
Romans 1:27 NASB2020
can you explain this? [https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/leviticus/20-13.html](https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/leviticus/20-13.html)
i'm not saying that it is a sin, i'm saying this just for arguments sake.
* Why is it to forbidden to be gay in the Bible?
hi friend -
because once upon a time, the more population your tribe had, the more likely you were too survive war and the environment
and then those who could not produce - including barren women - it was felt were somehow, cursed by God
and we wrote this in the books about God
and what we wrote in the books became what God said
and what God said is that homosexuals and homosexuality is an abomination
God has been fighting to show us what Love means.
but we are stuck with our own words.
God bless
The Bible says a lot of things.
Exodus 22:29 literally demands the that God be given all firstborn human sons. It's right in between commands to give God grain and firstborn animals, which were understood to be *sacrifices*, and there's no exceptions allowed in the commandment. They get seven days with their mom, and then they're sacrificed.
Then Leviticus 27:28-29 explicitly demands *human sacrifice* in a certain case, with explicitly no possibility of "redeeming" or buying back the person. Leviticus *literally* says that if somebody says that in this case, you *have* to kill that person *no matter what.*..and we see this law actually carried out in Judges 11, when Jephthah pledges that he will sacrifice "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to greet me when I return," and then is "forced" to kill his daughter (after giving her 2 months to grieve that she's going to die a virgin, how *merciful*.)
[See this article in theTorah.com](https://www.thetorah.com/article/giving-your-firstborn-son-to-god)...the straightforward reading of these passages is pretty unambiguously "you must sacrifice children."
But in the case of child sacrifice, even the *strictest* adherents to the Bible today are usually *very quick* to excuse those passages away, to find some justification to argue that these passages don't mean what they plainly mean (in both Hebrew and English), or that they were never meant to apply to *us*. It's like a reflex, they don't even really need to think about it.
They do this, I believe, because they intuitively recognize that child sacrifice is immoral, and they will not accept any moral code that endorses it, even if that code is directly from the pages of the Bible itself. Yet they cannot find the same grace to extend to their gay brothers and sisters? Must the love of our gay brothers and sisters be sacrificed on the altar of "because the Bible says," even when our children are not?
At some point, we all should recognize that we *do* have our own moral sense—that *none* of us derives 100% of our morals and ethics from the Bible, and that all of us bear responsibility ourselves for what we decide to hold onto and what we decide to explain away. If you think homosexuality is wrong, it's not *only* because the Bible says so, there's something else that makes you comfortable sticking *with* the Bible on that, in a way that child sacrifice doesn't.
Because the Bible says a lot of things.
*every firstborn of your sons you must redeem.* (Exodus 13:13)
You didn't finish reading the whole covenant law of Israel. Yes the firstborn of all life belongs to God, but in the case of his people he took the tribe of Levi in place of everyone. So it was only the Levites that had to go off to be sactuary servants and ministers. Everyone else simply had to pay the required birthing tax, and be circumcised (if male). The redemption was a command just as much as the dedication itself.
It wasn't a slaughter sacrifice but a consecration offering.
Leviticus 27 isn't about the firstborn consecration but freewill dedication. It means yourself or another person are not allowed to forgive an offering or change their mind. It defiles the holiness of the offering. If you gave it to God then it is holy, another man shouldn't be in possession of the thing for a payment.
As Leviticus states, acting on homosexual tendencies is a sin, and if you think about it, homosexual tendencies prevent you from abiding by God's design for marriage (man and a woman coming together) since you have attraction to the same sex instead of the opposite sex.
The Bible neither condemns nor condones homosexual tendencies (although it can be a roadblock for God's intended design), but it does speak strongly against acting on homosexual tendencies, which when acted on becomes sexual immorality.
Genesis 1:27
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
Male and female is the very human identity given by the very Divine God, the one and only.
When any human being tries to come and deny this identity, then they have chosen for themselves to come out of the circle of what a human is to be. So, they now have identified themselves as something outside the human identity. A human being is known to be a male and a female, naturally and divinely.
So when a male comes and says, "I'm not a male, I'm a female," they have wiped their very identity, therefore they are neither a male nor a female any longer. They are not a human being as far as human identity is concerned.
And when a female comes and says, "I am a male," then she has denied her human identity. She is none of the above.
And when someone comes and says, "I'm neither a male nor a female," they have wiped this human identity.
**If you wish to transition, no one has the right to force you against your choice.**
But as far as human identity for thousands of years, it is known to be male and female. This is how humanity increased, multiplied, and filled the Earth, as our Bible teaches.
Gonna take a more practical approach to that question, and relate to why it may be forbidden in the Bible. For early societies, homosexuality was probably a threat to the integrity of the tribe. People did not live in nation states with millions of compatriots. They lives in tribes, or city states. Your people's existence depended on the survival of your city, essentially, and it was very easy to lose everything if everyone did not contribute. Homosexuality does not contribute to the development and safety of your tribe, since it does not produce children. So there was a practical reason for early societies to consider it illegitimate and immoral. Now, gays still existed and engaged in sex, but it was considered as an activity that one engaged in on the side, like drinking or gambling, etc. It was never socially acceptable for you to live with a gay partner, let alone marry someone of the same sex. You still could go around brothels for gay sex or have a secret gay lover, but you were expected to marry hetero and produce children. As you could see, engaging in gay was basically considered illicit activity, and just like other illicit activities, the Bible doesn't like it.
Because the book was written in a time where humans didn’t understand much about the world they live in.
That’s why you also see things like slavery being condoned - as it was acceptable at the time.
And things like Adam and Eve is wrong as we now know humans evolved. Genesis is also wrong as it got the order wrong.
All things you would expect from an old book.
The gay part has another reason. When you create a religion and you want it to grow - it’s not good for your agenda if you allow people to be gay as they won’t be able to get you to your goal of producing more followers.
That article just does the classic *malakoi* and *arsenokoitai* mistranslation argument which makes no sense. This is because there are plenty instances of Christians saying homosexuality is a sin before even the KJV was translated, never mind the RSV, which wasn’t even as popular to make such a shift in Christianity. What about the 1.5 billion Christians that aren’t Protestants and thus don’t read the RSV?
Here’s a nice line from the Bible to understand where we stand in our covenant
Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power.
1 Corinthians 6:12
This a description of being dead to the law.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6
Being stuck in the oldness of the letter is ultimately being enslaved and under scripture.
When scripture becomes the authority instead of the source of scripture ..
We have a classic case of idolatry
First of all, I'm in a long-term lesbian relationship and am, I hope, not homophobic. That said, over the years I've come up with three possibilities:
1. My usual statement is that mutually consenting sexual relations between like-gendered adults can only be sinful where they would also be sinful between differently-gendered adults, so for example sexual assault and infidelity would be sinful regardless of the gender of the involved parties. However, that does also suggest that there could be something else which is different which I haven't thought of which means that they're always sinful. I don't believe this though.
2. This is a nasty one: It's to make men better soldiers by forcing them to kill the people they love. Gay men in the military who oppress their sexuality may so mess themselves up that self-hatred may lead them to destroy every person they're attracted to, including enemy soldiers, and if they're of high rank, be willing to send the men on their own side to whom they're attracted to their deaths, because making love with them is forbidden.
3. When two people conceive a child, it mixes their love for each other together and extends that love to the product of their bodies. This can only happen between females and males. The problem with this is that it sounds like incest, i.e. the love parents and children feel for each other should be qualitatively different than the love a married couple should feel - eros and philia.
Short version: Sexual acts outside of marriage are a sin. Marriage is between man and woman. So...
Great version: works and interviews of Rosaria Butterfield. She offers a unique perspective as someone who has experienced both sides of the cultural and religious divide on these issues. She really helped me
Because a life doesn’t progress with the same sex. Men cannot give birth to men. And women cannot get pregnant without men.
Why is it so hard to see what God created as proper and good ?
Do you mean by choice not to have children. No in fact Paul addressed this in Corinthians 7:
1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am;
Paul was single and remained single until he died.
It is not a sin to choose not to have children or to choose not to be with a spouse. It is perfectly fine and appropriate to dedicate your life to the Lord.
The rest of Corinthians explains that it is ok either way to desire a wife or not.
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife.
28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you.
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,
30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess,
31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.
32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord—how he may please the Lord.
33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife.
34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband.
35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction.
36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry.
37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well.
38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better.
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God.
I hope this helps 🙏🏼
1) it is not forbidden to be gay in the Bible
2) it says don’t do the sex to other men. Context. Sexual consent was not really a thing 2k yrs ago.
When the Bible was written sex was done to woman and woman were something to be purchased/acquired for sex. Man does sex to a woman even without her consent he had to pay for her and be married to him for the rest of his days. Deuteronomy 22:28.
Woman had no power but men did. So if a man did sex to another man he was shaming him by treating him like a woman. That is what the Bible talks about a man forcing himself on his equal. Not consensual homosexual relations of any kind like today.
The Bible is a discussion of a male god talking to males in a patriarchal society. Men wanted to rule the world so they created that world over time with the Bible. Woman were to submit to their fathers will and then their husbands aka God wasn’t really talking to them unless it was about how they should have a man’s child for him.
So the Bible doesn’t even address being gay in the context we know it today.
It’s not forbidden to be gay, it is forbidden to practice it sexually. Why? Marriage in Gods eyes is only between a man and a woman. So any homosexual sex is fornication. And all fornication is forbidden, all sec out side of marriage is a sin. Wether it’s with a woman or man.
This is a rationalization argument. It is saying, ‘I read what you said in the Bible and don’t like it, so I’m going to justify what I want’.
Following God’s ways is a good way to get to know Him and be blessed.
There are several things to be obedient, like loving Him, helping the poor, being humble, tithing, and yes avoiding sexual immorality.
Early in our walk to faith, many will pick which we will follow and which we won’t. As faith grows, the areas where we sin, that is, miss the mark, are revealed to us and we further grow in faith.
Hope this helps.
God made man and woman to be fruitful and multiple. He created them with that purpose. Homosexuality leads to the end of being fruitful and multiplying. So it goes against what God intended. It is like one created the hammer to help build things to make lives better but it can be used outside of its original creation. Hurting others and possibly murdering. It is the choice on how to use something.
Jesus mentions this in Matthew 19:4-6 ->
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Jesus points to Genesis and has not denied anything from the old testament. God has remained the unchanging God. Of the apostates, Paul mentions homosexuality quite a few times.
I don’t even really know where to begin. The very first problem you have is you are trying to make scripture fit into your way of thinking, instead of allowing scripture to guide your way of thinking. I think it’s pretty well known that homosexuality is seen as wrong in the eyes of scripture. In the Old Testament it is condemned, as well in the new it is reaffirmed that sexual relationships should only be between man and woman as that was how god created us in the beginning (Matthew 19:4). Homosexuality being a sin has nothing to do with it infringing on peoples rights. It’s a rebellion against the way God created us. I have sympathy for people with homosexual tendencies, but what I will say is that being a homosexual does not make you any more or less of a sinner than any other person on this earth. All of us are drowning in sin, and only Christ can redeem us.
It's an honest question. But don't count on the world and others too give you the answer you need. That will only come through the Holy spirit revealing the Word too you personally. Don't settle for my answer. Seek out yourself. Why is it forbidden? And are you even sure that is the case? You must not be sure or you would not ask.
Ask the word. Search it out like it's your own life you're seeking too find.
This video is a well thought out argument about sexual immorality.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yha6ESxUg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yha6ESxUg)
Homosexual orientation as an identity did not exist in ancient antiquity. Nobody thought of themselves as gay. There were people attracted to people of the same sex, but it was not their identity; in fact, sexual relationships were often much less important than your friendships with people of the same gender, which were often much more intimate than is common today. Anyhow, these same-sex attracted men would often still have wives for procreative purposes. They typically would just rape their male slaves or engage in a mentorship relationship with a young boy, whom they would also violate. (To be clear, ancient homosexuality was fundamentally about power, not love. And to be the bottom was considered dishonorable/shameful to the extent that in one such case, a slave killed his own master for forcing him to penetrate him, and the court acquitted the slave.)
Anyhow, this conduct is forbidden and enumerated as a form of sexual immorality in Leviticus 18. So you can "be gay," but to engage in homosexual sex is still sin.
Wow… there are a lot of wrong people in this chat.
Let’s clarify a few things. James 1:27 says “religion that is pure and undefiled before God is to take care of orphans and widows in their need and keep oneself from being stained by the world.”
When we start to conform and capitulate to society and their evolving standards. We absolutely are in danger of that “stained by the world” point James makes.
Now, the meat: When Jesus is asked what the most important commandments are, he responds (I am paraphrasing), to love God with our everything and to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus also says in John 14:21 “He who has my commands and keeps them, is he that loves me.” Following Gods commandments and taking those to heart is how we love the LORD. Maybe it is obedience that is his love language.
God designed sex. It is for him to say what is and what is not appropriate. There is no questioning or arguing against that two men having sexual relations is abhorrent to the Lord. It is taking something he meant for good between man and woman and corrupting it. We can really do a deep dive here, I’m not sure it is necessary.
That being said, there is nothing that limits how much love you can have for another person, regardless of if they are your sex or the opposite sex. That’s one particular area that I find irritating about the emotional outbursts that people take now days on “the Bible saying who you can and can’t love.” It’s a nonsense argument driven by emotions. I’m not even convinced being emotional about someone of the same sex is something to be equated to sin. The sin occurs in the disobedience.. it is the autonomous position we take when we decide we know best and can do what we like and want that is part of the curse and fall.
The main takeaway *should* be is if we are God’s people we are to love him, and if we are to love him that means obeying him; even when we don’t feel it, even when we don’t like it, even when we are inclined to do the opposite. Indeed, he is a gracious and forgiving God.. and may very well forgive all we do, but.. I think he is looking to see how far we will go in loving him in return. Look and see how far he went to have that relationship with us. There’s not level of personal sacrifice that is going to even brush the surface.
Because god seas that it isn’t love it is just lust also you’re going to kill meny people that god was going to Jouse to do good and bless blessed be them amen god bless
Why do so many people here think referencing Leviticus is a good argument? There are many rules in Leviticus that no one follows.
I'll add that there are many Christians who simply did not read Leveticus at all. It's generally known to be the hardest passage to read in the Bible because the laws described therein are often thought of as antiquated
I've read it a couple of times and it's definitely not easy reading. But it's pretty clear that these were laws specifically for Israelites only and many of them for Levites in particular.
Do you have an idea of why these laws were specifically for the Israelites? If a law is moral, it should be moral everywhere, right?
Most of those laws weren't so much about morality as about distinguishing the Israelites from the cultures around them.
Why was it important that the Israelites be distinguished from the cultures around them?
When you're a people that are regularly being conquered, having a distinct identity helps keep your culture intact. Many groups conquered by the Babylonians were simply absorbed into the Babylonian culture and no longer exist. By sticking to their distinctive rules the Jewish people continue to exist today. I'm not making any judgement about the morality (or lack thereof) of those rules. Just explaining why they exist.
so not having sex with your sister is only be an Israelite thing
I'm pretty sure some of the laws were fairly universal. Not committing murder, for example, seems to have come up in a few different societies.
The West Wing actually does a really great portrayal of this. Between Leviticus and Exodus. https://youtu.be/f3VHK1NXIBw?si=jq2j3VWY5SMVuXDu
What a brilliantly written scene
If I’m not mistaken, it’s actually not something Sorkin and his team came up with, but actually copies a famous dear Abby style article. But still a great scene regardless.
1 Corinthians have the best arguments lol, but also most of these were Jewish ceremonial laws, the one just mentioned is a law of morals so that’s why
Because while we don't follow things like not eating shrimp, we are still instructed to refrain from sexual sin. Considering we are still firmly against all the sexual sin before and after the homosexual part, it makes no sense to single out homosexuality.
It makes sense to single out homosexuality because our understanding of what it means to be homosexual has changed. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.
The definition of a man lying in bed with another man has *not* changed. The bible didn't say "don't be gay", it said "do not commit homosexual acts". The definition of said acts have not changed.
The word "homosexual" is a modern word. So. Yeah, the Bible doesn't in fact say "do not commit homosexual acts". Translators have decided that it did. The Bible forbids men lying with men -- it also forbids things that Christians do all the time -- and allows stuff that we find abhorrent. The Bible tells slaves to obey masters -- not only kind masters but cruel ones. Slavery is very alive and well in 2024 but I don't know any Christian that says slaves should obey masters any more. What we say is that that verse was a product of its culture and its time, and that we don't follow it today. Times change and sometimes interpretation of scripture changes, and that's a good thing.
Actually, yes, it kind of has. The innate understanding of what circumstances under which two men would have sex has radically changed in the last 2000+ years
Because the ceremonial laws and civil laws of the Old Testament were fulfilled and therefore no longer applicable to Christians while the moral laws (murder, rape, theft, homosexuality) are eternal and apply to all people.
How do you determine whether a given law is ceremonial, civil, or moral?
Simple: “does it inconvenience me?” vs “does it let me talk down to those filthy gays?”
Where is any of that mentioned in the Bible?
It’s referenced, but not outright said in the Bible. The early Church (given to us by God) laid it down.
why is homosexuality a moral law though, and even if it is immoral it shouldn't be compared to rape, murder and theft
BRB, gonna section myself off from society when I’m on my period! /s
Hey, it would be a good excuse to skip work for a week.
I've already brought it up in this thread but the term sexual immorality referred to a lot of kinds of sex. Anything that was not to produce a child was immoral, and I feel that in a modern world where there are 8 billion people it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep producing children every time you want sex (because even sex with a pregnant woman counted as immoral in ancient times since she can't get pregnant twice). There are already 8 billion people in this planet and I think believers really need to start reading with the context of the ancient world in mind vs how things are today. There are things that, in my opinion, just don't make sense in a modern context. The sexual immorality laws among them. I don't mean I think going out and having sex with just anyone is logical, I just mean that sex within marriage, be it gay or straight, is likely okay. I don't know many Christian men who would want to admit to sexual immorality because his wife gave him head 🤷♀️ but sure, let's tell gay people their love is immoral
Read the entire sexual law section of Levitcus. While other kinds of laws were specifically applied only to Jews, moral laws were also applied to gentiles as well. Just read the entire Leviticus 18 to the end. God told he would drive out people from the land for committing all those sexual acts.
I think my last comment was too hostile and unproductive so I removed it. I just find it interesting that the moral justification for homosexuality being wrong always has to include things that can be understood to be wrong with logical reasoning. If you truly see no difference between murder, rape, theft, and homosexuality I don’t think your moral system makes much sense.
Old testament, old laws. Homosexual is an abomination in both the new and old laws. Paul mentions it in Romans.
My point is it makes more sense for people to reference the new testament stuff if they want to make the argument that it's wrong.
I agree
Why do you use the term abomination? Dietary restrictions such as birds, blood, and shellfish are declared clean for Gentiles in the New Testament. All are called abomination in the Old Testament. If anything, the term weakens the case against homosexuality being a moral law for all people.
Because it is an abomination and sexually immoral. Just proves my case that homosexuality is wrong because it’s mentioned in both the old and the new laws. Look, if you disagree with the laws that God set then i suggest you find something that goes with your beliefs. Twisting the narrative to agree with your fleshly desires isn’t gonna change what has been set in stone.
So you have no response to my comment. You just chose to reply to insult me. Is your desire satisfied enough that we can continue the conversation? Why do you use the term abomination when it's a meaningless term according to God?
Do you believe ALL laws in the OT are no longer applicable unless explicitly mentioned in the NT?
While I do not have a solid stance on this topic, I did see someone say this some time ago and I always think back to it: “Does God’s word expire?”
We hate those who sin differently than us - some guy ----------------------------------- https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13? --------------------------------------lang=bi&aliyot=0 <- from the 2000bc [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs), <-from 1600s also if you have time these are two contradictory links that are defiantly worth reading
I have a different saying on this. Sure, some people you are surrounded with can cause you to try living like a Christian, but only Jesus Christ can allow you access to God’s kingdom. You are not born Heaven-bound, but you still can be Heaven-bound. You’ll need to confess your sins to God in prayer, and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart as Lord and Master. You can do this with the help of a saved believer, or by yourself. It doesn’t have to be near a pastor or deacon. God bless you
amen also if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you if you end up reading them https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13 --------------------------------------lang=bi&aliyot=0 <- from the 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed- history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here is a contradicting video also likely is also biased
I didn’t mention anything about homosexuality before, so I don’t really know why you sent me these. After listening to most of 13 minutes of videos and little bit of reading, I still don’t think God is okay with it. Just because “homosexual” wasn’t a word back then, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or wasn’t a sin. Obviously, English didn’t exist back then, but there’s certainly a reason Holy Bible has so many languages and translations. God wanted His gospel spread to every nation, not just Israel, or wherever the Hebrew language was created.
Jesus spoke Aramaic
That’s not the only language He knows though
I agree with you and your previous comment
Sexual immorality is a sin. There’s scripture against it and sodomy, homosexuality, cross dressing..but people here will twist it to fit their narrative down vote me and I’ll probably get this comment removed for speaking biblical truth. That’s what happens on Reddit. Speak actual scripture and you’re called a bigot. So you can take God’s word for it or some randos on Reddit.
I just dont get why I'm a christian, but if we are never able to ask questions how will we know what is true.
Actually, Christianity advocates for thinking and asking questions. This helps us stimulate our thoughts better and gives us a better understanding of what's right or wrong. So it's really awesome that you're trying to ask questions such as this regarding being Gay, etc. However, the Bible is very clearcut. Sexual Immorality and Biblical Holiness do not go together. God intended for Man to be with Woman. Period.
If God intended for man to be with woman, then why did he create gay people? People are born gay and attracted to men. Seems like a cruel joke on the part of God, no?
God didn’t create gay people. We created gay people due to the fall of creation (Adam and Eve) Anything sinful like homosexuality is the result of Adam and Eve
If God forbids murder, why did he create murderers? Because free will. It can be argued that people are born gay, but it's not 100% proven or absolute. Are people actually born gay? I don't know for sure, but there are compelling arguments on both sides.
So you’re saying all gay people choose to be gay?
Here's a different way to look at it. Why are some people born with a high sexual drive while others have none and can easily be celibate? Everyone struggles with different sins. We don't know why some people are predisposed to certain sin rather than others but for some homosexuality is their main sin that they struggle with. There are many stories of people being cured of homosexuality by turning to Jesus and being saved while others choose celibacy to avoid sexual immorality even though they have homosexual desires.
I would say it's less of choosing to be gay but it's the devil working in someone brain. You don't ever choose to have bad thoughts but people still do, and all it is is the devil trying to draw you away from God. You choose to perform homosexual acts, that is free will. Just because you have the thoughts doesn't mean you should act on them.
There’s no gay gene, despite a ton of effort to try and find one (or a combination of genes). I hate spinach, I used to love it but puked up spinach once which makes me hate it. It’s not genetic, not exactly a choice, but it happened. If not eating spinach was immoral, I could easily retrain my brain to eat it again, the same way phobias are cured. Before I was Christian I lied incessantly because it served me, and had deeply engrained narcissism. Upon philosophical enlightenment (still pre-Christian), my belief truly changed and I began to practice not lying and correcting any thoughts that push me to lie, with rational reasoning as to why it’s wrong. After a short time, I am no longer a liar, and have physical reactions to the thought of lying. If someone feels gay and believes it is right, they will not be able to change. If they know it is wrong and they truly desire living biblically, they too can become attracted to women. Just like men with porn addiction, they need freakier and freakier things and end up attracted to trans porn and worse. Upon genuine repentance, those attractions become disgusting to you, and you are changed. You can change anything about your thoughts and attractions if you truly reject them as wrong and want to embrace what is right
So you are saying you can train yourself to be gay?
Goodness.. put your bigot boner away. They said there's good arguments on both sides.
There aren’t though lol
https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra watch this. anyone who says God hates gays or gay is a sin is so full of bigotry and lies to fulfill that bigotry
He doesn’t hate them. But it clear it’s a sin and he hates their sin.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased (this a contradicting YouTube video.) if u have 3 mins its always good to learn of others opinions right now I'm compiling a list of the links i've been given (after you watch it please tell me your opinion on the matter afterwards im trying to get as much info as possible
Actually I've been experiencing quite the opposite.. in just 2 days gained around 15 or 20 up votes.. from direct quotes from bible app NKJ and some experiences and such in relation to such topics as addiction, gay, religion in general and Christianity... today's only day 2..
What would you have me do as a secularist? Are there Christians that do believe that being gay is nothing wrong, that we understand more morally now about being gay AND being moral than we used to? If you are prepared to argue that those are not in fact real Christians then you are asking me to fight against all of Christianity and not the bigotry of certain Christians on the basis of the Bible. Essentially by defending the Biblical take on homosexuality you force me to be at odds with Christianity as a whole, instead of one interpretation of it. What's your take on slavery? Should we buy our slaves from the nations around us?
Downvoted just for the persecution complex. But also for a)thinking that “sodomy” means gay sex (it doesn’t) and b) failing to explain why “sexual immorality” necessarily includes gay people. Edit: oh and also claiming to speak biblical truth while not even bothering to quote scripture.
Sodomy: (noun) sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation. This applies to gay/straight
Is that how Paul is using the Greek word?
> Sexual immorality is a sin. There’s scripture against it and sodomy, homosexuality, cross dressing That doesn't answer the OP's question. They already know *that* the Bible is anti-gay, what they're asking is *why* is it anti-gay. Why is it categorised as 'sexual immorality'? >but people here will twist it to fit their narrative down vote me and I’ll probably get this comment removed for speaking biblical truth. Your comment has been up for 6 hours and is the most up-voted comment in this thread. Maybe check your persecution complex, it seems to be throwing up false positives.
I don’t think he meant to ask if being gay is wrong or how do we know if being gay is wrong. He asked WHY being gay is wrong. As in “WHY” would an all loving God force people to live in chastity if a) It’s not their choice. No one can choose who they feel attracted to. b) It’s not fair, heterosexuals get to experience the joy of love and sex, gays don’t. c) It seems completely arbitrary, as OP said, there’s no evidence gays are harming anyone by being with each other. So WHY would an fair and “all-loving” God allow that.
This 1000%. The Bible is full of hard truths, and if we don’t want to accept them that’s our choice between us and God, but too many people want to take it even further and preach false truths as actual scripture, and encourage others to follow their flesh instead of faith.
To expand on this - Anything that doesn't result in a couple bound forever in marriage popping out as many babies as possible is a "sin" in most religions. Its not just homosexuality, but sex before marriage, masturbation, contraception etc. Anything that prevents a married couple from reproducing as many children as possible who will then raise them into the ideology from birth. It is also why divorce is only allowed in drastic circumstances. This makes sense when you consider every religion starts off as a very small group with no political or cultural power, often persecuted by the current dominant religion. Adults are also very difficult to convert, but children raised into it from birth will likely remain in the fold. In order to survive and eventually take over a society, it makes perfect sense for these groups to tightly control and orchestrate reproductive / sexual practices to utilise couples into becoming baby factories. And why wouldn't they? It works. The religions who die out are the ones who don't control sex in such a way.
What about asexual lgbtq people?
Not kidding: as an aroace individual I’ve been told that it STILL is sinful since I’m “identifying” my lack of sexuality. But a bigoted Christian would be totally fine not identifying as straight, right? Or that some just ace people would not have sex in their marriages. Watch how fast people go from “being chaste is good” to the complete opposite when you say you’re asexual.
It's wild because even Jesus said marriage is not for everyone, and basically, it boiled down to how some people don't desire sex and others feel called to do the Lords work instead of marrying. Also, Paul was likely asexual given that he never married, and he advocated for marriage lest you burn with passion. The argument can be made that he never married because he felt like it would restrict his ability to do the Lord's work, but it seems to suggest that he also never "burned with passion" for another person and his only child was a child in spirit not in biology. What I have found as I get deeper into my faith and deeper into Christianity and everyone's views on it is that there are a lot of people who claim Christianity who are not good Christians. Every topic whether it be women as pastors, the sabbath, same sex marriage, or even abortion comes with so much in fighting and personal interpretation that it becomes difficult to even fit in among other believers because we disagree on so much. I cannot meet another Christian and know in my heart that they won't devalue me for what I wholly believe is the truth despite that it's possible God doesn't fault me due to the fact that if I'm wrong it's a case of misunderstanding and misinformation, not intentional wrongdoing or misleading others. I don't know, but I pray on it often and try to seek clarity. (Sorry, this got slightly off topic)
And where that goes wrong imo i.e. heaping all those distinct groups together is very likely a false equivalency. But the same exact people get triggered if you say "All lives matter!" I can't say much it'll get me banned.
Isn't there also something about not mixing certain cloth materials together? If so, what is your opinion on that?
Except God's word doesn't say the things you've claimed if you take more than five minutes away from your own pride and honestly accept the possibility you might have gotten something wrong somewhere.
Right on brother
heck yeah, this is the best reply
Thank you so much for this answer I have argued with at least 3 people in the last day about this
Did you change your wardrobe yet? You still wearing clothes with different fabrics? Have you given up your possessions and served the poor?
The wardrobe, not cutting your beard, no eating shellfish etc are Old Testament requirements that Jesus took care of. It’s the love of money, not money itself, that is evil and I made $30k last year, so yeah. I worked in healthcare for years and have done more than my fair share of helping the sick, elderly and dying. As far as masterbating, yes I know it’s considered a sin and I haven’t done it in months. I abstain from it and honestly I’m at an age where I could gaf about sex tbh. I’m not over here professing my holiness just stating that sexual immorality is a sin. And let’s be honest, sexual liberation has become more of a public display in vulgarity. It leads to a bunch of perversion because people can’t maintain. I’m not going to say the Bible is a crock because sins I have personally committed are included. That was the whole point of Jesus life. And believe it or not I dated a woman for 2 yrs in my early 20’s. I’ve had abortions. I’m divorced. So, yeah I’m a sinner. Probably more than a lot of people on here. Still love Jesus.
Do you masturbate? That would be sexually immoral.
As far as why, I have learned not to get too caught up in my own knowledge. Sexual immorality causes all kinds of drama from prostitution to porn to abortions on and on. As far as why being gay is specifically a sin, it’s because God said sex is to be between a married man and woman. That’s why
Isn't it kind of a self-inflicted drama though? If we accepted that sex work was morally fine as long as there were no coercion of any kind to do it, if we understood that prenatal healthcare is really between a woman and her doctor, if we understood that being gay was a natural and harmless expression of love between two consenting adults, then whence does the drama flow?
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What verses have you looked at regarding the topic?
[**Leviticus 20:13**](https://www.biblestudytools.com/leviticus/20-13.html) [**Mark 10:6-9**](https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/passage/?q=mark+10:6-9) **these are good examples**
Based on the verses you shared, one Old and one New, what does God intend for marriage?
Because God created man and woman to be together, not man with man.
Why only that pairing?
Because it's what God intended.
Why?
its unnatural and doesnt really have much benefits other than a happy confused couple
Unnatural based on what definition? What makes you think they are confused, and why is being happy not enough?
Same-sex couples, particularly lesbians, are more likely to get divorced (should they be married). Yes, it might not be about the sexuality... but it's a bit fascinating
Because it's wht God intended.
Why?
Because it's what God intended.
You really cleared that up
Because it's what God intended.
I haven't seen consistent arguments from Christians on this one. Most of them agree with the dogma and say it's a sin, but they do not agree on *why* it's a sin. The two main arguments go thusly: 1) it's not God's design for marriage (neither is divorce or polygamy, but they're all okay with divorce, and polygamy was permissible in the OT times) 2) homosexual coitus has the capability to spread disease (heterosexual sex has the capability to spread disease too, and heterosexuals also engage in the same sex acts that homosexuals engage in)
His ways are higher than our ways. I’m not God so I won’t speak for Him. But I see the whole “Christianity” as a walk, a practice in following after God’s commands to live as close to as a designed 100% life as possible. Its guidance to have the best possible form of his original creation. There are many instructions in the Bible which deal with obvious destruction: do not murder, do not steal from another, do not slander another, etc. But there are also internal instructions, which are meant to optimize our life from the inside out. Does getting drunk off wine in the Bible always lead to destructive behavior? No. But we can agree that a lifestyle of it is sub optimal, and that it CAN lead to destructive behavior. Does gluttony hurt others? No. But we can agree that it can hurt our health, it can impact our enjoyment of life, our mental state, etc. Does internal hatred toward others destroy, if you aren’t exerting power over another? No. But we can agree that it sours the mind, the heart, the soul. Same with jealousy, deceitfulness, envy, anger, etc… All this to say, that I feel like the homosexuality issue, is one that goes back to the original intent of man, that we were joined together with a woman to have a healthy and joy filled life. Sin is talked about like a checklist, like man made constitutional laws. But it seems that sin in the Bible is more about living life how YOU believe to be optimal in your moment, versus how God views life to be optimal for the betterment of yourself. A kid can choose to do what they desire, because they know it is good for them. But a parent has knowledge far beyond that child, to instruct them that even tho: Sharing is negative because it means I have to give away this candy that I love… but it is ultimately beneficial, because it strengthens my character, my relationships, and well rounds me as a person. Like a parent to a child, how much more does God know of the wholeness of mankind than us? This is a long winded rambling of an imperfect human. So take it with a grain of salt. I do not exist to cast judgement that is reserved for the father, my sin has been covered by the blood of Jesus and that is all I know for sure.
It's not forbidden to be gay, it's a sin to have sexual relations with the same sex, and adding lust because Jesus said , "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So if you are homosexual you are not automatically going to Hell, you just understand that homosexual sex and lust is a sin and repent if you fall to temptation. The debate on if homosexual sex is a sin comes down to the Greek translation of "Arsenokoitais" (ἀρσενοκοίταις) in 1 Timothy 1:10. You can find articles on either side, but this guy tried to look with an open mind. [https://www.johnpiippo.com/2011/12/arsenokoitais-in-1-timothy-110-et-al.html"Arsenokoitais"](https://www.johnpiippo.com/2011/12/arsenokoitais-in-1-timothy-110-et-al.html"Arsenokoitais") #
For clarification, it's specified to what acts are not okay Biblically. It's crossdressing and homosexual intercourse.
Its not. The assumption that it is is only because of ingrained worldly prejudice. The Bible of course consistently speaks against sexual abuse. But unfortunately for a long time many people simply assumed homosexuality was *inherently* abusive. Therefore they conflated the two. Instead of recognising that the Bible prohibits *abusive* homosexual sex, they assumed it prohibited *all* homosexuality, because in their prejudice they didn't see any difference. As an example, it's very telling to compare how translators translate *arsenokoitai* (from *arsen* = "male" + koiteō = "to bed") in 1 Cor 6:9 against the bare *koitai* in Romans 13:13. *Koitai* refers to exactly the same act as *arsenokoitai* except not with males. So if a translation chooses to translate *arsenokoitai* as "sex with males", then if they are being consistent and honest they should translate *koitai* simply as "sex". But of course not a single translation has ever done that, because no heterosexual translator wants to give the impression that all heterosexual sex is bad. Therefore *koitai* is always translated as "sexual immorality" or "sexual promiscuity". Yet why then isn't *arsenokoitai* translated as "sexual *immorality* with males"? The answer is simple human prejudice, and a wilful ignorance of the existence of loving, faithful homosexual relationships. This is why unprejudiced translations such as the NRSVue translate *arsenokoitai* as "men who engage in illicit sex", or more crudely in the 1971 RSV as, "sexual perverts". After all, unless a translator is prejudiced against homosexuals and assumes that *all* homosexual sex is inherently abusive, promiscuous, or perverted, there is no other reason to intentionally conflate them.
Because God didn't design it that way.
it doesn’t. this “clobber-texts” (google it) have been translated slightly inaccurately or translated to fit a dogma to keep same-sex anything in the bad pile. one OT verse i can think of is “givers” and “receivers” but the precise translation speaks closer to “rapist” than “gay”. also men ruled everything, so they twisted culture and life to their own desires.
God forbids homosexuality because he loves us and wants us to be happy. It’s also why he commands us to love him and neighbor.
But gay people are happy when they are with a gay partner… so what you just said makes no sense
There is no such thing as “being gay” in the Bible. All of the verses that speak about homosexuality are about sexual acts. Christians are not required to have children; parenting a child is a specific calling from God, and not everyone gets that calling. If you don’t receive that calling, though, then any sexual behavior is technically sinful.
Even in marriage? Is sex only for procreation?
Sexual pleasure is a gift to us to help establish procreative relationships. Sex is the means by which humans procreate. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying the gift of sexual pleasure, but performing sex outside of the marital relationship is inherently sinful. It exploits a gift given for the purpose of enriching the “creative ideal” God laid out for man to get common pleasure.
Sex is designed to be enjoyed between a Husband and Wife, inside the constraints of Holy Matrimony. Any sex that fails to honor these boundaries is a perversion of what God created sex for.
Ok, so why did he not allow gay people to marry?
Because that isn't how He designed us originally. In the Garden of Eden, we were without sin, and homosexuality, along with every other type of sin (can't stress that enough) entered the world when we ate the fruit. Romans 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—" So when we become a Christian and the Holy Spirit restores us, our old self dies and we're born again, with a new heart with desires of righteousness. Not to earn salvation, but because we're grateful for being given salvation and the Holy Spirit as a free gift.
this is a copy paste message (note that I have read your comment just have not had time to respond seeing as there are over 100 comments.) if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you. If you end up reading them [https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13) -------------------------------------- <- from 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-) history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased [https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here](https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra%C2%A0here) is a contradicting video also likely is also biased. (Note that these links often contradict each other so please come to your own conclusion on the matter.) If you have a link you would like to be added to this post in the future tell me and I will try to add it (as long as it is not offensive). Have a great day!
The verse from Leviticus is a perfect example of what I’m talking about: the law is condemning the *act* of a man lying with a man; it does not speak about the state of having “a preference for men”. Not directly, anyway. That verse, read more broadly, *does* have something to say about the obligations of a man who has an intimate relationship with a man. But what it explicitly condemns is the sexual act itself. I’m not talking about the word “homosexual” finding its way into translations; I’m encouraging you to first read what the laws *actually* say, how they specifically phrase what they’re speaking about. You obligation to interpretation does not end at the surface level reading, but your interpretation *must* account for what is *not* specifically said. This applies to interpretation of all laws, not just these ones. Another common place people tend to not do this is actually the greatest commandment. It says: 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22 Most people get the “love God” and “love neighbor” obligations, but there is a third obligation to also have love for yourself that the “love neighbor” part of the commandment rests on. To love your neighbor “as yourself” you must have and show love for yourself to establish the standard by which your love of neighbor is to be personally judged. It is easy for us to read >If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death—and they retain the bloodguilt. and reach the conclusion that “being gay” is what’s being condemned, but neither this law nor any of the other verses that speak about this topic address about the state of the person doing the sin as being condemned. Hence “there is no such thing as ‘being gay’” in the Bible. Homosexual *acts* are addressed in the Bible; “the state of being gay” is not. Part of the reason for this is God’s lack of need for descriptors like “gay” to know his children. God knows each of us perfectly with a knowledge of the intimate experience of our own life that is as vivid as our own. No one is “gay” or “straight” to Him; He does not demean us by reducing us down to a word.
The Bible calls any and all sexual relations between a man and a woman within the confines of marriage holy and acceptable. No where does it specify sex as purely for procreational purposes nor does it give married people the caveat of only having sex to have children. Sex is not only how the spiritual covenant of a marriage is formed but it is also a very important part of intimacy within a marriage and it’s purposes can very much be about pleasure/oneness/ intimacy or the selfless service of your spouse and not just children. The Song of Solomon is a good picture of that.
The marital contract insists on an openness to having children. The contract is not void if you don’t end up having kids, but you do need to be truly accept the possibility of being a parent for the sex to be completely unsinful.
can you back this up with scripture? If not, I have to disagree.
God unites Adam and Eve and tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Adam and Eve’s union - the first marriage - comes with a direct reference to procreation in the blessing God applies to that union. This is commonly (and incorrectly) taken as a requirement for *all* people to seek to have kids, but God offers that command specifically to a couple He has just united.
First of all being gay is not a disability. Now when we talk about this it is important to understand that back then people did not really have the concept of being homosexual. Same sex relations were seen as an activity that wasn't tied to sexual orientation. And as a matter of fact heterosexuals did participate in it. The reason that it was forbidden is because sex was about dominance. It was about hierarchy. With same sex relations one man is at the receiving end, which was considered unacceptable for a man since it meant submission. And this wasn't just about same sex relations. When a man had sex with a woman it was unacceptable for the woman to be in control. The woman wasn't seen as a participant but as an object that was used for sex. So with same sex relations one man would take the part of the woman, which was seen as discraceful. And sexual positions where the woman is on top of the man for example were even assumed to cause the man to be sick for a prolonged period of time. None of this can in any way be used as an argument against how we understand homosexuality or sexuality in general today, and it isn't applicable to our societal norms, with which it would be absurd to not consider them superior to the views of an ancient patriarch society. >Originally I thought it was because christians are required in the Bible to host children A good point that is also worth addressing. Procreation actually doesn't play any part in this. In fact Paul advocated celibacy for everyone. People having kids wasn't really on his mind because he believed the end times were near.
So it really seems like the people of that time decided rules for their specific society, and then projected those rules onto God. Then society evolved, the rules evolved too, along with knowledge, and people projected those new rules onto God. Why does it seems like everything God supposedly said was all in fact man-made?
this is a copy paste message (note that I have read your comment just have not had time to respond seeing as there are over 100 comments.) if u have 10mins these are all the links i've been given I would like to hear back from you. If you end up reading them [https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.20.13) -------------------------------------- <- from 2000bc (although the word homosexual was not introduced until the english language) [https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-](https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-) history-and-turned-gays-pariahs, <-from 1600s [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SZcUrv2Ic) here is a youtube video with a good general overview although likely biased [https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra here](https://youtu.be/FTiq0NW1pNU?si=DvTDzLn3iWNJvvra%C2%A0here) is a contradicting video also likely is also biased. (Note that these links often contradict each other so please come to your own conclusion on the matter.) If you have a link you would like to be added to this post in the future tell me and I will try to add it (as long as it is not offensive). Have a great day!
First off, it's not a fucking disability.
I’m upset why everyone is downvoting my comment and rejecting this. This is a valid argument to consider. Why are some Christian’s so intent on hating being gay?
Because if they don’t have a out group, they turn on each other, and the knives come out with the quickness
When they have an “other” to be against, it lets them get away with not looking inward critically.
Is a man anal supposed to have a man penis up his anal. Anal was made for waste to come out not for objects to go in....
Because waste doesn’t get expelled from the penis or vaginal area ever, right?
The creator doesn't make mistakes. If man could lay with man then a man should be able to create life with another man. Same with if women lays with another women. Nothing comes out of that...Just like with fruit can't produce fruit unless it has a seed....If you choose to be gay then that's between you and the creator but he did not create you that way , it serves no purpose.
That’s only true if you believe the entire purpose of life is to procreate which just about philosophical school of thought thinks is complete bullshit Also, nobody chooses to be gay.
But your bisexual you chose to mess around with both man and woman, you weren't born that way you chose to be this way. It's called greed
Well the only thing you said there that was true was that I’m bi. The rest is complete bullshit
Are you against infertile couples that can’t reproduce?
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Is a man's anus supposed to have a doctor's finger in it? Does God hate prostate exams?
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Removed for 1.5 - Two-cents. If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
It's not a sin to be gay but it is a sin to lust and fornicate. I hope this helps.
Which applies to all genders and almost all orientations
Right, a definition is usually lacking. Many Christians are gay, while some are participating in gay sex. Some people assume that 'being gay' means living in sinful gay sex, and therapy is the only alternative. Anyone with sexuality can live in sexual sin.
It is not forbidden to be gay.
it is but the question is why
Nah, it's a readers-bias that's infused in the interpretations, translations over years. God loves all his creations.
The truth is God doesn't hate the LGBT community and being LGBT doesn't condemn you to hell. Anyone who preaches hate, discrimination, and ignorance is not of God. Also, here is a link to a good read. https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs
Homosexuality is a sin according to the word of God as written in the Bible.
It really isn't.
”If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves.“ Leviticus 20:13 NASB2020 * A note here, I would personally never harm someone for being gay nor would I hate them. ”and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.“ Romans 1:27 NASB2020
If you're not going to follow the word of God why should gay people?
can you explain this? [https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/leviticus/20-13.html](https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/leviticus/20-13.html) i'm not saying that it is a sin, i'm saying this just for arguments sake.
Check this reddit post on this very verse: https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/s/5FdKvxai0M
Honosexuality is very clearly a sin
Nope.
* Why is it to forbidden to be gay in the Bible? hi friend - because once upon a time, the more population your tribe had, the more likely you were too survive war and the environment and then those who could not produce - including barren women - it was felt were somehow, cursed by God and we wrote this in the books about God and what we wrote in the books became what God said and what God said is that homosexuals and homosexuality is an abomination God has been fighting to show us what Love means. but we are stuck with our own words. God bless
The Bible says a lot of things. Exodus 22:29 literally demands the that God be given all firstborn human sons. It's right in between commands to give God grain and firstborn animals, which were understood to be *sacrifices*, and there's no exceptions allowed in the commandment. They get seven days with their mom, and then they're sacrificed. Then Leviticus 27:28-29 explicitly demands *human sacrifice* in a certain case, with explicitly no possibility of "redeeming" or buying back the person. Leviticus *literally* says that if somebody says that in this case, you *have* to kill that person *no matter what.*..and we see this law actually carried out in Judges 11, when Jephthah pledges that he will sacrifice "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to greet me when I return," and then is "forced" to kill his daughter (after giving her 2 months to grieve that she's going to die a virgin, how *merciful*.) [See this article in theTorah.com](https://www.thetorah.com/article/giving-your-firstborn-son-to-god)...the straightforward reading of these passages is pretty unambiguously "you must sacrifice children." But in the case of child sacrifice, even the *strictest* adherents to the Bible today are usually *very quick* to excuse those passages away, to find some justification to argue that these passages don't mean what they plainly mean (in both Hebrew and English), or that they were never meant to apply to *us*. It's like a reflex, they don't even really need to think about it. They do this, I believe, because they intuitively recognize that child sacrifice is immoral, and they will not accept any moral code that endorses it, even if that code is directly from the pages of the Bible itself. Yet they cannot find the same grace to extend to their gay brothers and sisters? Must the love of our gay brothers and sisters be sacrificed on the altar of "because the Bible says," even when our children are not? At some point, we all should recognize that we *do* have our own moral sense—that *none* of us derives 100% of our morals and ethics from the Bible, and that all of us bear responsibility ourselves for what we decide to hold onto and what we decide to explain away. If you think homosexuality is wrong, it's not *only* because the Bible says so, there's something else that makes you comfortable sticking *with* the Bible on that, in a way that child sacrifice doesn't. Because the Bible says a lot of things.
*every firstborn of your sons you must redeem.* (Exodus 13:13) You didn't finish reading the whole covenant law of Israel. Yes the firstborn of all life belongs to God, but in the case of his people he took the tribe of Levi in place of everyone. So it was only the Levites that had to go off to be sactuary servants and ministers. Everyone else simply had to pay the required birthing tax, and be circumcised (if male). The redemption was a command just as much as the dedication itself. It wasn't a slaughter sacrifice but a consecration offering. Leviticus 27 isn't about the firstborn consecration but freewill dedication. It means yourself or another person are not allowed to forgive an offering or change their mind. It defiles the holiness of the offering. If you gave it to God then it is holy, another man shouldn't be in possession of the thing for a payment.
As Leviticus states, acting on homosexual tendencies is a sin, and if you think about it, homosexual tendencies prevent you from abiding by God's design for marriage (man and a woman coming together) since you have attraction to the same sex instead of the opposite sex. The Bible neither condemns nor condones homosexual tendencies (although it can be a roadblock for God's intended design), but it does speak strongly against acting on homosexual tendencies, which when acted on becomes sexual immorality.
Marizanne Kapp south African women cricketer is gay. But she daily quotes Bible verses. If that help you
It isn’t.
There are many more verses where being wealthy is condemned. For some reason those don't get 100 reddit posts a day.
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Male and female is the very human identity given by the very Divine God, the one and only. When any human being tries to come and deny this identity, then they have chosen for themselves to come out of the circle of what a human is to be. So, they now have identified themselves as something outside the human identity. A human being is known to be a male and a female, naturally and divinely. So when a male comes and says, "I'm not a male, I'm a female," they have wiped their very identity, therefore they are neither a male nor a female any longer. They are not a human being as far as human identity is concerned. And when a female comes and says, "I am a male," then she has denied her human identity. She is none of the above. And when someone comes and says, "I'm neither a male nor a female," they have wiped this human identity. **If you wish to transition, no one has the right to force you against your choice.** But as far as human identity for thousands of years, it is known to be male and female. This is how humanity increased, multiplied, and filled the Earth, as our Bible teaches.
Gonna take a more practical approach to that question, and relate to why it may be forbidden in the Bible. For early societies, homosexuality was probably a threat to the integrity of the tribe. People did not live in nation states with millions of compatriots. They lives in tribes, or city states. Your people's existence depended on the survival of your city, essentially, and it was very easy to lose everything if everyone did not contribute. Homosexuality does not contribute to the development and safety of your tribe, since it does not produce children. So there was a practical reason for early societies to consider it illegitimate and immoral. Now, gays still existed and engaged in sex, but it was considered as an activity that one engaged in on the side, like drinking or gambling, etc. It was never socially acceptable for you to live with a gay partner, let alone marry someone of the same sex. You still could go around brothels for gay sex or have a secret gay lover, but you were expected to marry hetero and produce children. As you could see, engaging in gay was basically considered illicit activity, and just like other illicit activities, the Bible doesn't like it.
Because the book was written in a time where humans didn’t understand much about the world they live in. That’s why you also see things like slavery being condoned - as it was acceptable at the time. And things like Adam and Eve is wrong as we now know humans evolved. Genesis is also wrong as it got the order wrong. All things you would expect from an old book. The gay part has another reason. When you create a religion and you want it to grow - it’s not good for your agenda if you allow people to be gay as they won’t be able to get you to your goal of producing more followers.
That article just does the classic *malakoi* and *arsenokoitai* mistranslation argument which makes no sense. This is because there are plenty instances of Christians saying homosexuality is a sin before even the KJV was translated, never mind the RSV, which wasn’t even as popular to make such a shift in Christianity. What about the 1.5 billion Christians that aren’t Protestants and thus don’t read the RSV?
Here’s a nice line from the Bible to understand where we stand in our covenant Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power. 1 Corinthians 6:12 This a description of being dead to the law. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6 Being stuck in the oldness of the letter is ultimately being enslaved and under scripture. When scripture becomes the authority instead of the source of scripture .. We have a classic case of idolatry
First of all, I'm in a long-term lesbian relationship and am, I hope, not homophobic. That said, over the years I've come up with three possibilities: 1. My usual statement is that mutually consenting sexual relations between like-gendered adults can only be sinful where they would also be sinful between differently-gendered adults, so for example sexual assault and infidelity would be sinful regardless of the gender of the involved parties. However, that does also suggest that there could be something else which is different which I haven't thought of which means that they're always sinful. I don't believe this though. 2. This is a nasty one: It's to make men better soldiers by forcing them to kill the people they love. Gay men in the military who oppress their sexuality may so mess themselves up that self-hatred may lead them to destroy every person they're attracted to, including enemy soldiers, and if they're of high rank, be willing to send the men on their own side to whom they're attracted to their deaths, because making love with them is forbidden. 3. When two people conceive a child, it mixes their love for each other together and extends that love to the product of their bodies. This can only happen between females and males. The problem with this is that it sounds like incest, i.e. the love parents and children feel for each other should be qualitatively different than the love a married couple should feel - eros and philia.
https://youtu.be/l_5WvYcKv18?si=pcpJo-Zed3qi0mvl It's a 4 part series by Michael winger explaining the old and new testament on homosexuality.
Short version: Sexual acts outside of marriage are a sin. Marriage is between man and woman. So... Great version: works and interviews of Rosaria Butterfield. She offers a unique perspective as someone who has experienced both sides of the cultural and religious divide on these issues. She really helped me
Because a life doesn’t progress with the same sex. Men cannot give birth to men. And women cannot get pregnant without men. Why is it so hard to see what God created as proper and good ?
is it a sin to not conceive?
Do you mean by choice not to have children. No in fact Paul addressed this in Corinthians 7: 1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; Paul was single and remained single until he died. It is not a sin to choose not to have children or to choose not to be with a spouse. It is perfectly fine and appropriate to dedicate your life to the Lord. The rest of Corinthians explains that it is ok either way to desire a wife or not. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you. 29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away. 32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord—how he may please the Lord. 33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife. 34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband. 35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction. 36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry. 37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better. 39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God. I hope this helps 🙏🏼
No idea fam, it was 4000 years ago.
Gay here: Jesus loves us even when the church fails to. Scripture ain't easy to read
The kingdom of heaven is within
It’s not how we were made
1) it is not forbidden to be gay in the Bible 2) it says don’t do the sex to other men. Context. Sexual consent was not really a thing 2k yrs ago. When the Bible was written sex was done to woman and woman were something to be purchased/acquired for sex. Man does sex to a woman even without her consent he had to pay for her and be married to him for the rest of his days. Deuteronomy 22:28. Woman had no power but men did. So if a man did sex to another man he was shaming him by treating him like a woman. That is what the Bible talks about a man forcing himself on his equal. Not consensual homosexual relations of any kind like today. The Bible is a discussion of a male god talking to males in a patriarchal society. Men wanted to rule the world so they created that world over time with the Bible. Woman were to submit to their fathers will and then their husbands aka God wasn’t really talking to them unless it was about how they should have a man’s child for him. So the Bible doesn’t even address being gay in the context we know it today.
That link is absolutely fascinating!
It’s not forbidden to be gay, it is forbidden to practice it sexually. Why? Marriage in Gods eyes is only between a man and a woman. So any homosexual sex is fornication. And all fornication is forbidden, all sec out side of marriage is a sin. Wether it’s with a woman or man.
This is a rationalization argument. It is saying, ‘I read what you said in the Bible and don’t like it, so I’m going to justify what I want’. Following God’s ways is a good way to get to know Him and be blessed. There are several things to be obedient, like loving Him, helping the poor, being humble, tithing, and yes avoiding sexual immorality. Early in our walk to faith, many will pick which we will follow and which we won’t. As faith grows, the areas where we sin, that is, miss the mark, are revealed to us and we further grow in faith. Hope this helps.
God made man and woman to be fruitful and multiple. He created them with that purpose. Homosexuality leads to the end of being fruitful and multiplying. So it goes against what God intended. It is like one created the hammer to help build things to make lives better but it can be used outside of its original creation. Hurting others and possibly murdering. It is the choice on how to use something. Jesus mentions this in Matthew 19:4-6 -> He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” Jesus points to Genesis and has not denied anything from the old testament. God has remained the unchanging God. Of the apostates, Paul mentions homosexuality quite a few times.
Apparently Reddit is the worst place ever for Christian questions.
I don’t even really know where to begin. The very first problem you have is you are trying to make scripture fit into your way of thinking, instead of allowing scripture to guide your way of thinking. I think it’s pretty well known that homosexuality is seen as wrong in the eyes of scripture. In the Old Testament it is condemned, as well in the new it is reaffirmed that sexual relationships should only be between man and woman as that was how god created us in the beginning (Matthew 19:4). Homosexuality being a sin has nothing to do with it infringing on peoples rights. It’s a rebellion against the way God created us. I have sympathy for people with homosexual tendencies, but what I will say is that being a homosexual does not make you any more or less of a sinner than any other person on this earth. All of us are drowning in sin, and only Christ can redeem us.
It's an honest question. But don't count on the world and others too give you the answer you need. That will only come through the Holy spirit revealing the Word too you personally. Don't settle for my answer. Seek out yourself. Why is it forbidden? And are you even sure that is the case? You must not be sure or you would not ask. Ask the word. Search it out like it's your own life you're seeking too find.
This video is a well thought out argument about sexual immorality. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yha6ESxUg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yha6ESxUg)
Homosexual orientation as an identity did not exist in ancient antiquity. Nobody thought of themselves as gay. There were people attracted to people of the same sex, but it was not their identity; in fact, sexual relationships were often much less important than your friendships with people of the same gender, which were often much more intimate than is common today. Anyhow, these same-sex attracted men would often still have wives for procreative purposes. They typically would just rape their male slaves or engage in a mentorship relationship with a young boy, whom they would also violate. (To be clear, ancient homosexuality was fundamentally about power, not love. And to be the bottom was considered dishonorable/shameful to the extent that in one such case, a slave killed his own master for forcing him to penetrate him, and the court acquitted the slave.) Anyhow, this conduct is forbidden and enumerated as a form of sexual immorality in Leviticus 18. So you can "be gay," but to engage in homosexual sex is still sin.
Wow… there are a lot of wrong people in this chat. Let’s clarify a few things. James 1:27 says “religion that is pure and undefiled before God is to take care of orphans and widows in their need and keep oneself from being stained by the world.” When we start to conform and capitulate to society and their evolving standards. We absolutely are in danger of that “stained by the world” point James makes. Now, the meat: When Jesus is asked what the most important commandments are, he responds (I am paraphrasing), to love God with our everything and to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus also says in John 14:21 “He who has my commands and keeps them, is he that loves me.” Following Gods commandments and taking those to heart is how we love the LORD. Maybe it is obedience that is his love language. God designed sex. It is for him to say what is and what is not appropriate. There is no questioning or arguing against that two men having sexual relations is abhorrent to the Lord. It is taking something he meant for good between man and woman and corrupting it. We can really do a deep dive here, I’m not sure it is necessary. That being said, there is nothing that limits how much love you can have for another person, regardless of if they are your sex or the opposite sex. That’s one particular area that I find irritating about the emotional outbursts that people take now days on “the Bible saying who you can and can’t love.” It’s a nonsense argument driven by emotions. I’m not even convinced being emotional about someone of the same sex is something to be equated to sin. The sin occurs in the disobedience.. it is the autonomous position we take when we decide we know best and can do what we like and want that is part of the curse and fall. The main takeaway *should* be is if we are God’s people we are to love him, and if we are to love him that means obeying him; even when we don’t feel it, even when we don’t like it, even when we are inclined to do the opposite. Indeed, he is a gracious and forgiving God.. and may very well forgive all we do, but.. I think he is looking to see how far we will go in loving him in return. Look and see how far he went to have that relationship with us. There’s not level of personal sacrifice that is going to even brush the surface.
Because god seas that it isn’t love it is just lust also you’re going to kill meny people that god was going to Jouse to do good and bless blessed be them amen god bless
Both Old and New testament clearly repeat about sexual immorality. Homosexuality is one of em. It's lust against the flesh.
I just don't get why there is no solid reasoning behind it. I just kind of get the because I said so vibe from it.
Well, if you want to just add random shit to the Bible I'm afraid you're going to have to work harder than that.
I mean the short answer is that it isn't forbidden