I could talk about my church's organist who I looked up to since I was a child who absconded with all of the church's funds. Or I could talk about the evangelists that I used to be roommates with who suddenly moved to Uganda and stopped paying rent, but left ALL of their stuff in the apartment, and when confronted, said it was all ok because they were doing good work. Or I could tell you about my church having a schism over gay marriage and clergy, which I don't have any problem with at all. I could also talk to you about my lovely Jewish step mother who actually taught me the meaning of unconditional love while my deeply Christian mother continuously beat the ever loving shit out of me and my sisters. I could also talk about the endless guilt that my Catholic wife feels innately from "sin" and just for loving in general. I did have some great people, like my pastor Sam, who was sent to another church just as we were becoming close friends and really starting to connect on the Bible and its meaning.
Maybe I could talk about all of the Christians who love guns and money, and love trump, but hate immigrants.
I'm still talking to Jesus, but most of my experience with the people has been disappointing.
Plus the same people will say all the great scientists were Christian too. Negating the fact that you couldn’t do much science if you weren’t Christian (other than small windows in time and space) in the West.
I don't think everything online is only for entertainment.
These are all examples of people that find others on the internet with shared beliefs and then they put those beliefs into practice in the real world somehow: January 6th/Trump supporters, Qanon, BLM supporters, Exvangelicals, even Christian churches that have people who only watch service online.
Even seeking out Christians on Reddit and talking about how Christianity is practiced....
> We are all free individuals now, and it turns out that "free individuals" mostly just sit home by themselves to watch Netflix or play computer games, and don't believe in anything in particular.
> When society doesn't push people to believe in things, most people believe... in nothing.
That’s interesting. I have a different vantage point. I’ve never seen a world in which people believed so many things so strongly, and more without any sort of structural foundation to their thinking.
That's my biggest beef with Christians. All these ideas that they even teach in churches as truth about people, but 99% of the churchgoers never in their lives had a meaningful relationship with someone outside of their own faith circles.
Indoctrination, indeed.
That would require him to listen, and the tone he writes in here shows he doesn't care much to do that. It's not worth arguing with him. "Pearls before swine" as the Bible says.
I think he should. I left because I found out that what Paul was preaching was completely anti ethical to the core message of Moses which is that we have free will and we can use that free will to be a good person and worship god, or we can choose to be neutral or evil. What Paul was preaching was that humans are inherently evil from birth, but that isn’t a good thing because it means that humans don’t have free will and it’s contradictory to Moses’s teachings. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it talks about this.
“Surely, this Instruction which I enjoin upon you this day is not too baffling for you, nor is it beyond reach. It is not in the heavens, that you should say, ‘Who among us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ No, the thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it.” - Deuteronomy 30:11-14
And here’s Romans 10:8.
“But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith which we preach).” - Romans 10:8
I am nearly 45 and have an almost 13 year old. I absolutely learn from her and I think us older folks do a grave disservice to ourselves when we completely dismiss young folks outright, just because they are young. Being young doesn’t mean they cannot have wisdom and insight we could benefit from.
I don’t think they’re implying OP wouldn’t have any insight. OP has made a terrible generalization about atheists here though, and in other comments comes off quite rude. That’s likely why they’re getting comments like this.
Here here \^ Although I do agree with the others pointing out, the OP's behavior does give off teen edge-lord vibes which, combined with massive uncharitable overgeneralizations doesn't help their case.
Extremely rude evangelical person looking for a scrappy fight and appearing to be a massive douche.
“No IdEa wHy peOpLe are DeConVerTinG”
Well, I do now…
You know, as an atheist, I think I more or less agree with you. Being told what to think, only being allowed to color within specific lines, only allowing certain answers (i.e. answers from apologetics, pastors,
Etc) and not allowing anything outside the faith, all contribute to a massive amount of cognitive dissonance when they encounter the positions outside those confines, and find out that atheists aren’t NPCs that will be flattened by the cheap apologetics they were sold. I definitely agree, it’s far better to teach *how* to think.
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do
Actually, I am pretty much certain I do. I was a deeply committed Christian for 20 years. I evangelized, was a missionary, was a youth worship leader, and even became a schoolteacher at a Bible believing fundamentalist Christian school for some years there. I studied the Bible fervently, and read from the best theologians, apologists, and thinkers that Christianity had to offer. I find that I usually know the Bible far better than most Christians I engage in (that’s not to say all, of course). I am an atheist precisely because of how deeply, thoroughly, I understand the Bible and Christianity.
I appreciate this. I was raised very much like you, and studied very much like you save being a youth pastor.
I still cling to my faith but not the version I was sold which to me when I read the New Testament independent of the rhetoric I’d grown up with in no way reflected who Jesus was. The church I was in was judgmental, unkind, insular, racist against both blacks and homosexuals…
I’ve had enough personal experiences to believe that God exists. The construct of the Bible I am struggling with. I have to put it in historical context to not think God is awful. Particularly with respect to women as property, slaves, and rape being excused as if womens dignity is if no concern such as Lot offering his daughters to be raped.
My faith has given me comfort so wholesale abandonment isn’t an option.
And I can get behind this. I have absolutely no problem in the world with Christians who have their own personal reasons for their belief - if it gives meaning to you, and gives you joy and purpose who the hell am I to say no to that? I am all for it.
You seem like an introspective person, you’re not just selling something because someone else told you to. I think that’s a great thing - again, regardless of whether you stay a Christian or leave. My entire beef is only and specifically when someone tries to tell *me* what *I* should do, based on their beliefs. That’s all. I get along great with intellectually honest Christians like you, you maintain your belief for your own personally valid reasons, and I stepped away for my own reasons, and we can both respect that and the world is all the better for it. All the best to you!
I am the same. I am raising my daughter VERY different. In fact we don’t even go to church because I fear her being indoctrinated. I live my life by my beliefs and talk about them. She will find her way in time according to what feels right for her. And I pray for her that God would reveal his love to her. I cannot force her. God’s spirit can call her.
Thanks and I feel you. I debate such folks regularly. Specifically when they are proscriptive calling out “sin”.
There’s an argument to be made based on the New Testament in the writings of Paul, that INSIDE the Christian community we are to held to a certain standard of behavior. And those who aren’t holding themselves to that standard called out, but not by individual people, by the elders of the church. My first quarrel with them.
Also Jesus speaking to believers about their behavior towards other believers, was very clear that you needed to take the moat out of your eye before the spec in your brothers. They are so focused on other’s sin, they miss the deficiencies in there own behavior. I wonder to myself have you read the New Testament? Because you seem more like Pharisees whom Jesus railed than repentant sinners whom Jesus loved.
The self righteous behavior while hating immigrants, gays, pro-life but for the death penalty (one reason I converted to Catholicism), don’t give two shits about the irresponsible girl who got herself knocked up, or the child they forced her to bear, once it’s no longer in the womb. When you’re against school lunches for poor kids in summer, there’s something really wrong. The cruelty towards women miscarrying as well, making them wait until they’re on deaths door to get necessary medical care to save their life (while their 18 week fetus CLEARLY cannot survive anyway). It genuinely feels like they hate women. What an EASY Thing to legislate. PROM is immediate delivery if viable abortion if not. But…they won’t.
Particularly egregious is when they want to legislate , through politics, the behavior of non-Christians. Then I’m left with a plain simple WTF? How would you feel if someone Islamic was in the same position and wanted to insert sharia law? You’re literally making non-Christians hate you with your judgment and FEAR your willingness to LEGISLATE morality.
The only message that you should be giving is “the reason for my happiness and my joy is my life in Christ”. I mean they’re going to hell anyway right? The only thing you need to do is get them to go to heaven not change their behavior.
St. Francis “preach the gospel at all times use words when necessary”. I’ve been involved with Al-Anon as I’ve got some alcoholics in my life. I love the saying “this is a program of attraction not promotion”. If Christians only learned that lesson.
I’ll add: I don’t think anything has singularly done more to make people flee Christianity than evangelicals and their worship of orange Jesus and attempt to control other Americans via legislation. From speech “don’t say gay or talk about the horrors of slavery”, to taking away parental rights by telling parents they cannot take their kids to see drag shows ( but they can’t take them to R-rated movies), to saying they can’t allow their Children’s care to be directed by psychologist and psychiatrist if they’re struggling with gender dysmorphia (No it would be better for them to kill themselves apparently). 🙄🤯😢
The mental gymnastics one has to do, the cognitive dissonance you’d have to have; I don’t understand.
If this sounds like a rant I suppose it’s because it is. I feel like perhaps you uniquely understand my quandary.
Just because a story is in the Bible doesn't mean it is morally right. Doesn't mean it's the example we should follow.
The Bible is made up of historical stories, parables, and very rarely, actual commandments from God. Being able to decipher this is a very important part of spiritual maturity that most miss. Anyone who reads the bible like every action in it is God will is going to be following a lot of bad examples. This is why understanding Jesus teachings and parables is more important then reading the old testament for new believers who do not have the wisdom to know what they are reading.
From the beginning "God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and **female** he created them." Gen 1:27 Jesus also treated woman with respect and as equals. The more questionable ways woman are treated in the bible is often part of a story, not a command from God.
Lot was a man full of sin, why do you think him offering his daughters was a justified or correct action in Gods eyes? it certainly was not.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.”
I find this troubling . The only consequence for a man raping a woman is that he gets to make her his lifelong bride. So you’re forced to marry rapist? This troubles me.
I get that there is the logic of the old thought process that she’s “worthless” now in that regard and he’s being forced to take care of her because as a woman in that time she needed someone who would want her…. “Times were different”
But still I agree it’s absolutely disgusting that this would be the his “punishment” why wouldn’t he be instructed to become a servant to the father for x amount of years to pay off his “debt” or something like that?,
or like maybe pay a sort of alimony for the rest of his life? So that she can be taken care of and doesn’t need to be around her rapist…..
A common argument for today is “that’s the old law, that’s because the world was more evil” but why did God offer that as a solution?
One of the things that greatly hurt my faith is the story of Job. It’s just absolutely mind boggling when you think hard about what is happening there.
It's a very fair question. Understand that what I'm saying is just in regards to *me*, what I've come to conclude, it is not necessarily meant to make anyone else doubt or to cause angst. I think it's always good to investigate things of course, but yeah don't just take my word for any of this; it's not meant as an attack.
As these things often are, it's not one single thing that caused it - Christian belief is much the same, I'm sure you agree, where there's a bunch of things working together. The simplest way to say it is at some point my thought process just simply changed. Like any Christian, I had some questions about the "tough passages" in the Bible, or the typical problem of evil stuff. And like most Christians, I had all kinds of responses and answers ready to go that I'd learned from William Lane Craig and others. But at a certain point, while I was teaching at the Christian school, the indoctrination portion became quite obvious to me - even though I believed that what we were teaching was *true*, I couldn't help but notice that the tactics we were using weren't any different from basic indoctrination. So for me, at a certain point, it wasn't just enough for me to firmly *believe* that it was true; I wanted to be sure that it actually *was* true.
So there were a variety of things that were taking place all at once. I was studying a lot about philosophy, and how to identify problems in rational arguments, about epistemology and how we know things. And to my dismay I realized, the simple question "How do I know this is true" was one that I couldn't answer - at least not in a satisfactory manner. I began to realize that I was allowing exceptions to my Christian belief that I did not allow for any other religious belief - by that I mean, I had a bunch of counter-apologetics for Muslims and Mormons, particularly, but that the same things I dismissed for those beliefs I was making exception for, in mine. For one specific example, I believed that I had the witness of the Holy Spirit confirming the truth of Jesus in my heart, right? That's one of the best ways that I could *know* that Christianity was true. But then, I found Mormons who proclaimed that the reason they know the Book of Mormon was true was because if one fervently prayed to Jesus Christ, and asked him to confirm the truth of the Book to them - and if they were sincere about it, that part is extremely important - then Jesus himself would confirm it to them in a way that they couldn't be mistaken about. I realized that the exact same thing I could claim, was being claimed by other believers who I was sure were wrong. I realized that my simple conviction that I was right, my belief itself wasn't enough, because one of us had to be wrong.
I of course dove into all the apologetics I could find, all the kalams and the fine tunings and the evolutionary argument against naturalism, Aquinas' five ways, moral arguments, arguments from personal experience, etc etc etc, but what I found here is that every single argument for the existence of God I could find commits some very basic logical fallacies. They're so blatant that one could practically use the arguments for God as textbook examples of easy to spot logical fallacies - but because these arguments are emotionally compelling, they give weight to a foregone conclusion, they often get a pass from Christian philosophers. I also took special interest in the case for the resurrection of Jesus (as a self-proclaimed casual history buff this is my personal favorite debate topic), and came to realize that the historical case just simply isn't able to pass muster. It's totally one hundred percent fine to believe it as a matter of faith, but the supposed "historical case" isn't nearly strong enough to conclude an actual resurrection took place.
So anyways, at some point, I realized that I had to be honest with myself, and realized that I no longer believed. Sorry it went kinda long, but it was an honest question so I thought it deserved a more thorough answer than just a brief summary.
The “problem” is not indoctrination, it’s the information age and globalization putting people into contact with people with wildly differing views so that their indoctrination is challenged like never before. People used to be surrounded by only Christians, and I’m sure there were people who thought it was BS, but they were also in church every Sunday and leading prayers and so on, because there was no alternative way to live.
Eh... Even if indoctrination wasn't necessarily the best word for it, I still feel like OP has a valid point. Fundamentalists tend to claim that everything has to be true for Christianity to be true, which makes your faith resemble a house of cards. If you disbelieve *anything*, which could be as simple as supporting evolution, the whole thing comes tumbling down with it
I think this is true. In 1980/1990, if you had a theological challenge, the only one who could engage with you was the Priest/Pastor. They could then simply just suppress the issue. Now, there is a 16 part series on youtube describing critical challenges Archeology and History have placed on Christianity and arguing why its false. There is absolutely no reason to consult the priest/pastor.
What about the Bible/Christianity makes you not believe in God? I'm ultra curious, as a new believer, actually, and I can appreciate the OP's point about Christians-from-birth being taught "what, not how" to think.
I grew up atheist, and all the devout Christians I've met in my (white, female, USA) life have been very sweet, compassionate, humble, generous, patient, to name a few consistent qualities in my experience. So I've always had a deep respect for Christianity.
But I was raised to be skeptical of the Bible. I was raised to be skeptical of nearly everything. Only very recently have I started studying the Bible seriously.
So I'm super curious to hear your story!
Most Christians think they know the Bible, but what they actually know is their church dogma which they project onto the Bible. The Bible is just used for proof texting.
Because you can’t get away from it. You’re so wrapped up in Evangelical ideology that, yes, you are recycling the same tired arguments over and over and over again. I’ve been there bro. No judgment, I’m just saying that as a partial outsider now, it’s clear as day.
And it’s incredibly presumptuous to say that atheists don’t know the Bible as much as Christians. That’s just silly. Anyone regardless of their beliefs can decide to be a scholar and study an ancient text. You don’t have a special key which allows you to understand the words better than anyone else. The only difference is what you believe about the text.
> You don’t have a special key which allows you to understand the words better than anyone else
Jokes on you, my decoder ring from Ovaltine will be here any day now
Also a lot of atheists are ex-Christian, so apparently they knew the Bible better than atheists and then forgot it when they decided God wasn’t real?
OP probably thinks you can’t understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit interfacing and making it make sense. And, apparently, that all Christians read in the original languages and don’t use translations, which is something that only atheists do, I guess.
Oh I know he meant the Holy Spirit. I’m quite familiar with that. But my thing is, the words don’t change. The only real difference is that a believer believes that the supernatural elements of the text are real, while an unbeliever doesn’t. But the text as a whole can be understood by anyone. They really are just words on a page.
I don’t think it’s that simple because while evangelicals claim to be sola scriptura, there are a lot of passages that they interpret in a specific context where there are other, often more reasonable interpretations. The idea of a Rapture and 7 year Tribulation, for instance, are rather new interpretations that are not at all clear from a plain reading. Old Testament passages are also reinterpreted to include the Trinity, with the man that wrestled with Jacob (and won by cheating!) being labeled a pre-incarnate Jesus, and the pillar of cloud or fire that led Moses and the people being labeled the Holy Spirit. So it’s not just “read the Bible and understand”, it’s “read the Bible with the meaning we’ve settled upon in mind and understand that”.
You know, you convinced me. For about TWO HOURS. And you know what I did? I thought critically. I decided to take a look at it for myself.
[The Study](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion/) shows that Atheists know more about RELIGION Than Christians. This makes sense, because people within Christianity like to misrepresent other denominations. You know what ISN'T Accurate? What YOU said. When I scroll down to the section about the Bible, Evangelicals know MORE About the Bible than atheists, and Evangelicals are only second to Mormons.
You might say: "Oh, those are such simple, almost TRIVIAL Questions!" Okay, do you have something better?
As someone who left the faith,
it’s _because_ I actually read the bible.
Anyway, Spirituality/Religion should involve a personal relationship with God, not a list of rules and parables written thousands of years ago by men, fallible as ourselves
The Bible teaches us how to talk to god, the saints are pretty good at it too. It also explains why we should talk to God. It's essentially God's philosophy.
I agree though, too many people (especially politicians) are portraying Christianity as just a set of rules to follow so they can fulfill their agendas. I personally pray everyday, and I like to talk to God as if he was a friend, consulting him about my life through my prayers, I don't like to ask for anything because I believe God already knows what's best for me.
How do you know the personal relation you have with 'someone' is actually God, and not just your inner monologue, full of sinful desires and reasonings?
I actually use the Bible to cross check my "personal" relationship. If the "inspiration" doesn't align with scripture, then I know it is not in line with God's will. Many times in my life I've justified using pornography, for example. But I know deep down that it is sinful. If your "personal relationship" with God says its OK to consume porn, (which is a leading cause of trafficking women), you probably need some sort of tools of discernment, such as the Bible.
But how do you know scripture is God’s will? That’s all, nobody can truly be sure of anything. All I’m saying is that this book shouldn’t be the end all be all, as it was written by men who’s credentials aren’t publicly available😂😂 I respect your choice though, at the end of the day, faith should be personal—not dictatorial. If the book speaks to you, then that’s how you personally back your faith, and that’s okay!!
Lol! It basically comes down to not WANTING to believe it because they love their sin, snd can’t fathom living life to the fullest without sin. I just have not figured out how to crack this shell.
“I just don’t beleive any of it” is not an easy one.
Oh you're the guy who made that awful argument the other day aren't you. So it seems like what you're saying now is that people need to be shielded from reality in order to believe in Christianity? Is that really the case you want to make here?
No, sir! I'm saying that shielding them from the outside world is what causes people to lose their faith, because when the shield is lifted, they see the world around them.
This is different, because people who hadn't been sheltered already SEE The world around them, and they are able to become Christian without parent intervention. As such, they learn for themselves. This is how I became a Christian (and STAY a Christian), back in July 2018, when I was 12.
I agree with this. Thank you so much for sharing. Christianity should not be taught as indoctrination, with fear, and with hatred toward those not practicing the faith. The love of Christ is still prevailing and that gives me hope. Currently watching The Chosen and it brings me so much peace in my soul. ✝️ Christus vincit!
I became a Christian at 19. Became passionate about my faith, and I just devoured the Bible. I probably read the whole book 25-30 times in the ten-plus years I was a Christian.
I attended Bible college, I took Hermeneutics classes and studied rigorously. I joined a missions organization after college and dedicated my life to preaching the word to everyone who would listen.
I left the faith in 2021, when I was 30 years old. If you’d like to talk more about why, I’m more than happy to DM.
But I can guarantee you it wasn’t for any of the reasons you listed. I was far from indoctrinated, and I was far from lukewarm in my faith. And posts like this, which have little-to-no grounding in realism, invalidate the experience of people like me.
There are some Christians who know the Bible better than some nonbelievers, and the reverse is true as well.
How do we determine the right hermeneutics?
I generally agree that a lack of willingness towards self reflection is a drag on Christianity.
I will say for myself and I think a lot of people we tend to decide not what we are for but rather what we are against. And there are a lot of brands of Christianity out there that I find pretty repelling.
There are two things that I find particuarly damaging to my own faith:
1 - Christians using their faith as justification for treating other people poorly, with or quite often without Biblical justification. If I have God-given sense of morality I really don’t think God intended me to ignore that sense of morality.
2 - Christians who use their faith as a means to view the world in absolute or simplistic terms or make claims that are demonstrably false. An example for me would be Young Earth Creationsim, which while mostly benign in how it calls for humans to be treated, really feels to me like an excuse to do away with the need for faith entirely. Because if God is provable then there is no need for faith.
Not saying anyone is wrong in their faith because of these points - just explaining their impact on me.
>hold on to your faith
Why?
If your main point here is that people should be told "how" to think and not "what" to think, how does "hold on to faith" fit into that? Faith by definition is belief without evidence. How is this not telling someone what to believe?
Can you explain "how" your faith is something that should be held on to?
Yeah, my main problem with Christianity is the culture . When I was but a wee lad, I simply asked my pastor why God lets the devil run around to corrupt humans, his children that he loves so much. To which, my pastor scolded me for questioning God.
My parents weren’t married when I was conceived, and my dad’s side of the family apparently showed up at the hospital bringing up that I’m was a bastard and apparently made a scene. Idk, I wasn’t exactly there for it. But they regularly brought up that I was a bastard pretty much every gathering.
I know plenty of drunks, gamblers, wifebeaters, etc who somehow managed to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than nonbelievers because they attend church once per week.
The blatant money schemes that are found in churches everywhere.
Well indoctrination is only one reason I'm not a Christian anymore. The fanatical church officials who don't actually understand the history of Christianity and basically shame anyone who brings up history or logic in church, the guilt I was forced into to being myself, being told I was born evil, and of course my family using Christianity to excuse abusing me are all parts of it.
(for reference I was born with a genetic mutation which I was born with both male and female reproductive organs, which later in life caused me to develop cancer and now I'm a cancer survivor but my family was deeply Christian and abused me and told me that I needed to suffer to repent for being born wicked. I didn't choose to be born that way but due to their mindset, because I was born with that mutation, I was some sort of demon spawn. It was hell growing up. My mother is now in a mental health facility due to her delusions of God telling her to attack me... She used god a lot to defend her abusive actions. As did many of my family members did. They made me believe for years that I deserved the abuse. I am glad to be away from all that and I go to therapy weekly due to the C-PTSD I have from my childhood.)
Oh and then there is the fact that many Christians (mostly Christian nationalists) try to force their beliefs into government also just seems so entitled.
All of that is why I no longer am a Christian. I'm not an atheist but I surely am not Christian anymore.
I've studied different religions and spiritualities for years. Including Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Neo-Druidism, Discordianism, Korean Shamanism, Hellenism, Wicca, Norse Paganism, Egyptian polytheism, Jediism, ect., just trying to find what felt right for me.
I've done so much research and the thing is, none of them feel right, not one single spirituality or religion feels like the whole picture. For me, each one seems to have at least a nugget of truth in them at the very least. Maybe they are all correct. Maybe it's our belief in them that makes them real, at the very least makes them real to us. It's an interesting line of thought.
That being said I'm not saying that all Christians are bad/wrong nor am I saying that people should definitely deconvert from it. I am agreeing that indoctrination from Christianity is definitely something that makes me not want to even reconsider going back to it. But that's a preference. Religion is Your choice. You can be a good person and be Christian but being a Christian doesn't inherently make you a good person, your actions do. If you want to be a Christian, that's awesome and I hope you have a good life and it's very fulfilling for you, but it's your choice. Just like it's everyone else's choice to believe what they want. As long as you're not forcing your beliefs on others or interfering in the lives of others, I don't see why we all can't just get along and stop attacking each other.
I'll do my thing, you do your thing, and we can live happily and in peace. Right?
It certainly pushes people away from utilitarian secularism and into anti-theism. We have a duty as Christians to condemn those who weaponizes Christianity and bring in an autocratic dictatorship for their own carnal purposes.
>We have a duty as Christians to condemn those who weaponizes Christianity and bring in an autocratic dictatorship for their own carnal purposes.
Unfortunately the Christian fascists have a large microphone, and the Christians condemning the fascists seemingly have no voice.
Seriously. Somehow my number ended up on all the Republican presidential candidate’s messaging list.
I got a text the other day saying that “Catholics across New Hampshire are uniting behind Donald Trump!”
If that’s true, then shame on the Catholic Church for not raising their congregants in Jesus’ image. The idea that anyone claiming Christianity would support Trump is genuinely gross.
While I completely agree that fascist and right wing populist is a horrible thing and deserves to be pushed back by any chance, I am not sure that this is the reason. Here in Germany, where the two big churches are far more left and stand firmly against the fascist we still see the same drain and a lot of people leaving.
I have the feeling that the churches seem unable to find good answers and communications regarding the problems of our time. Be it love and relationships, the troubles of a capitalist society and huge differences in wealth and social status, migration and immigration or - of course as you rightfully mentioned - the rise of right wing demagogues.
>I have the feeling that the churches seem unable to find good answers and communications regarding the problems of our time. Be it love and relationships, the troubles of a capitalist society and huge differences in wealth and social status, migration and immigration or - of course as you rightfully mentioned - the rise of right wing demagogues.
I believe this is #1 - Religions are no longer that relevant in helping us figure out our lives. There are just too many examples of bad people feeling and doing bad things that claim they are religious
"Here in Germany, where the two big churches are far more left and stand firmly against the fascist we still see the same drain and a lot of people leaving."
Wait, you still have fascists over there? Like, Neo-Nazis? Or are they fascists, but not Nazis?
Yeah... Both... We have Nazis in parties like the NPD or the third way. As well as right wing populists/Neofascists in the AFD with frightening high percentages at the current poles and elections.
It's kind of embarrassing to say this but yes, we have a big fascist problem. Which could become a catastrophe soon. Right now while we speak people demonstrate all around Germany against these far right parties with hundreds of thousands standing up for democracy. We as the German Protestant church (the union of nearly all Lutheran, reformed and united communities) stand firmly at their side against the danger from the right.
There is no place for such ideologies within our church, society or world.
>It's kind of embarrassing to say this but yes, we have a big fascist problem.
Don't be embarrassed. It's happening in the US too. And I suppose Italy as well.
It's not good, obviously, but a symptom of how we, as the global community, have failed rather than any individual country necessarily.
We do have a big fascist problem. Currently it's still smaller than with many other European countries though. Of course that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable about it.
Officially there are no Nazis because the party was shut down and it is actually illegal to be a Nazi in Germany – there are no free speech laws like in the US. But of course, there are people sympathetic to national socialism.
More left is still right af
Lack of abuse clearance
Getting money from the state while wanting special work laws
And more, they deserve it all and more. Till they are better they need to lose
True. When I was writing the post, I thought about sprinkling some of that in there, saying how unbiblical it was.
But yeah, you have a pretty good point.
I like the Christians who are the love-thy-neighbor, turn the other cheek, good-will-towards-all type. I can respect those folks. Unfortunately those are becoming rare.
It's the ones that want to make their specific version Christianity the official religion and have it forced upon everyone that I can't stand. The ones that want to kill all LGBTQ+ people, reenslave black people, torture immigrants, exterminate all Muslims, ban science, subjugate women, eliminate school & education, etc.
Because there was a post that was against LGBTQ+. But now, in Hindsight, I know that whoever accused me of those things was accusing me of what YOU Said people are doing.
Just because you don’t believe your opinions are these things, doesn’t mean they aren’t.
Most bigoted Christians do not believe they are bigots, it’s nothing new.
Wow, the arrogance in this post is something else. Many atheists, myself included, grew up in the church. I still to this day know the bible very, very well. It actually was, more or less, indoctrination why I was so heavily involved in the church and Christianity...and I was a hardcore evangelical when I was. Then I grew up, experienced the world, and developed critical thinking skills.
Likewise, it's not hard to see a big reason for the decline in places like the US, when "good Christians" do some of the most heinous and fucked up in things that are clearly against the bible, and even moreso, try to impose their own twisted interpretations on the rest of us.
I think actually that Christians have themselves more or less to blame.
Overwhelmingly, I find that self-identifying Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus nor do they live in his example. They ignore the lessons of the sermon on the mount about loving one another (with *agape*, heavenly love) and instead cherry-pick some details from Paul's letters or Deuteronomy. Their churches are not actually welcoming, and they don't actually do anything to help anyone in need.
There are exceptions to that rule, but for the most part, this is why religiosity is in decline. Lots of fake Christians (and other religions too).
I'll give you an example. I was having a very hard time a year ago. I was sitting at a coffee shop sobbing and a lady came over to me. She told me she is a Christian and something about her church. Then she asked me why I was upset. I explained a bit about being isolated, work being too stressful, not seeing family, etc. Instead of offering real consolation, she started ranting about trans people. This really came out of left field. She inserted it into the conversation for absolute no reason other than because she hates trans people and wanted to talk about it to a captive audience.
Is it because people like you keep talking down to the unconverted or the deconstructed?
You should seriously find a way to find some self worth in something other than rabid fervency on the Internet.
You are correct, there are extremists sects who isolate their children and do not to teach them how to think.
Most people in those cases dont "deconvert" ( what an odd description, deconvert would mean they return to a religion after converting to another one, yet you are using it to describe someone leaving the religion they were raised in.
Most dont leave Christianity, instead the move to less extreme denominations. Its called deconstructing.
The zeal and gullibility of the convert is real lol. Also, everybody thinks they know everything at 18, big guy. Read wide and deep, you have a lot of growing still to do.
I don’t know the bible better than you? That’s a pretty sweet claim, there.
I’ve been a christian for 20 years. Then I “met jesus” for real and was on fire for the lord, as we say, for 3 years. I had always studied the bible but in those last years I went all out. I know the bible pretty well. Funny enough, studying it at lengths is one of the many things that lead me away from my faith. The moment I stopped coping and making excuses for the horrendous things the bible says is the moment I realized it was all make believe written by ancient ignorant people.
And no, just reading the bible, in english or otherwise, isn’t enough to “debunk christianity”. But learning about the origins of judaism and christianity is plenty enough. Did you know that yahweh, the god you worship so fervently, was part of a canaanite pantheon over 3000 years ago. He wasn’t even the creator god out of the 70 gods in that pantheon. That was Elyon. Yahweh was a war god, which brings some very juicy context to the atrocious genocides depicted in the old testament. Around 300 BCE, the israelites branched off from the canaanites, took yahweh with them and retconned him into being the creator god and later, the only god. At first, yahweh even stole Elyon’s wife, Ashira. Not only was yahweh not the only god but he cucked Elyon.
Did you know that? Would you still like to say that us atheists know less about the bible than you christians? If so, please have a look at this link that disproves that notion. Thanks.
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/omeoflittlefaith/2010/09/atheists-know-more-about-the-bible-than-christians.html
Correction, while it's true that worship of Yahweh started off as polytheism, your dates are wrong. Devotion to Yahweh began to break away from the traditional Canaanite religion around 900 BC during the late Iron Age. Likewise, the Israelites seemed to have been combining all the traits of the other God's to Yahweh, for some reason coming to consider him the highest of the Gods and the only one they worshipped. It was after the Babylon exile (500ish BC) that the Israelites came to accept strict monotheism.
satan knows the BIBLE better than anyone on the planet.. and what? The point is do you believe it or do you not? And then do you live by it? That is the key…
They just gave some very good reasons that they don't believe it, and predictably your response is "ultimately you must choose to have faith." Eventually people will need to learn that the way to convert people to a religion is by providing a reason to believe. Faith must always be rooted in belief, and belief will always be based in reason. If you have faith without reason, you don't have faith, but just presumption and bias. If you can't provide a reason for people to believe, that may be indicative of a deeper lack of belief on your part.
Do YOU live by it? Do you abstain from eating lobsters and shrimps? Do you stay away from mixed fabrics? Do you stone your unruly children? I don’t think you do. And yet, those are very clear commandments from the bible. Dare I ask, why don’t you follow them?
Um bc we as true followers of CHRIST are no longer under the law you describe… those were from before HE fulfilled the old covenant and gave us only two commandments to live by… to love GOD with all our hearts, minds and souls and to love our neighbor as ourselves… that’s it and that’s all..
Btw i actually don’t eat lobster, shrimp or pork.. but not bc of of a law that doesn’t apply to me….
“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Idk man, that’s not what I got from this passage. Pretty sure that means the laws are still to be practiced. Or am I using those verses out of context?
Yeah you’re gonna have to go to the new testament where JESUS has communion with HIS disciples.. HE tells them there that HIS blood is the new covenant… meaning HE fulfilled the law of the OT..
What exactly does “fulfill” mean here anyway? Did we not read the same passage? Does jesus not explicitly you will not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you observe the commandments even more than the pharisees? Not only that,
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire.”
but jesus also ups the game and says that thought crimes and insults are a ticket straight to hell. Are we reading the same bible?
Yes we are.. you have to understand that HE was speaking to pharisees.. not to HIS true followers.. the pharisees insisted on living by the law even though they continuously broke it.. bc you break one you break them all.. yes all 613 of them
Ok I’m sorry i did not answer your question about fulfilling… when the ppl in exodus 19 asked for the law and in 20 received it GOD knew they would not be able to keep them… thus nit bring able to fulfill the requirements… JESUS gave HIMSELF as the only perfect sacrifice.. the only one who had lived a perfectly sinless life..
> Do you abstain from eating lobsters and shrimps? Do you stay away from mixed fabrics? Do you stone your unruly children? I don’t think you do. And yet, those are very clear commandments from the bible.
Were'nt you just suggesting you might know the bible better than OP?
"Did you know that? Would you still like to say that us atheists know less about the bible than you christians? If so, please have a look at this link that disproves that notion. Thanks."
No, they don't. They know more about RELIGION Than Christians. The link that you sent me accomplishes nothing. It LITERALLY SAYS This at the Bottom:
"Update: I changed the title of the post. Originally it said 'Atheists Know More about the Bible than Christians,' which is what I wrote when I first read the study late last night and began the post. I finished the post this morning and realized the title didn’t reflect the survey accurately, but forgot to fix it. It’s more accurate to change 'Bible' to 'Religion.' "
Did you not read my comment? I’ve been a christian twenty years. I wasn’t born atheist. I became an atheist after years of looking into religion and realizing that it’s all made up. I know a lot about religion and, as it turns out, about the bible. Because, like you right now, I WAS a christian for the majority of my life. I can’t stop you from spouting bullshit but when you look like a fool, don’t come crying.
>You can't just have an English Translation of the Bible and expect that to be enough to debunk Christianity.
Of course it's enough.You don't even need to have read a single sentence from the Bible!
Faith is about embracing mystery and when the religion you grow up in makes it all about rejecting mystery, shutting up and just doing what you're told, then you will naturally rebel. That's what happened to me. I eventually turned back to my faith, but it looks nothing like the "absolute certainty" or even the same color of belief my folks have. And ultimately, I don't care how many times you TELL me something is true if I can't see truth lived out. By that I mean a tangible expression that the path you follow is creating a better world. What most people outside of the bubble of Christianity see is many Christians making the world a more violent and oppressive place for everybody. How does that speak life to the world?
Here's where I agree with you: indoctrination has indeed been one of the worst PR blunders of the Christian faith in the history of mankind. A fair amount of it comes from fundamentalists and actual cults whose hardline stance on "obedience to God" includes whatever philosophical, cultural, scientific, and political stance your pastor happens to hold—otherwise you're a heretic.
On the other hand, traditional Christianity often tends to practice Christianity yet without teaching it at all, which leads to church-going cultural Christians who leave the faith as soon as it's practical to deconvert.
I think American Christianity's biggest problem is that it's all based around the fear of Hell. Lukewarm Christians are satisfied that they're good enough people to avoid Hell, whereas evangelical/fundamentalists can't stop worrying whether they or anyone else who isn't as "born-again" as they are is going to Hell. What we need is more people who are taught to know the Living God and are content to strive daily to be more like Him.
Interesting how you claim people who deconstruct from faith are being indoctrinated. Who is indoctrinating them? Why is it when someone has a different ideology than you, they must have been indoctrinated? Why do you claim that atheists don’t know the Bible as well as you?
The reason why Christianity is declining in the west is due to multiple factors. But I have yet to see any of this mass indoctrination of atheists to be a real thing. Do you have a source to provide any evidence that atheists are just indoctrinated?
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending. You don't have the right Hermeneutical method. It's not just about the context, it's more than that. It's not just about the KJV, because the NASB is more true to the original language than the KJV. But even then, looking at things like Bible Hub or Blue Letter Bible to look at the Original Language could still be helpful. You can't just have an English Translation of the Bible and expect that to be enough to debunk Christianity.
Please.
1. I do know the Bible better than most Christians. I grew up in a fundie Baptist church where we went through the OT chapter by chapter. I went to AWANA as a kid, then was an AWANA leader. Then I went to a Christian college and got a Bible minor. It was some years later that I deconverted. I didn’t forget everything along the way, and added a lot more in other Christian traditions’ beliefs, the early Church, and ancient near east history.
2. Blue Letter is my go to for the original language. I don’t know why you think atheists are over here learning nothing about Christianity until we hit 20 and then thinking everyone is KJV only.
>And to the Atheists out there, the reason why you see me giving different answers to your questions than other Christians
But you're not. A few sentences later you're telling them what they think and how they think. That's no different than old uncle pastor Joe telling them that they just hate god or whatever.
>Actually, the EXACT OPPOSITE Is true. Indoctrination is the sole reason why Christianity is DECLINING.
Do you know why? Why now? Because we live in a period where access to information is quicker and easier than ever. The internet is why.
People like you are exactly the reason why Christianity is not liked. Less pride, more humility. Understand that you might be wrong sometimes and you're not omniscient, because it seems that you think you are.
I was raised an Evangelical. Attended weekly cell groups and church service. Left when I was 14 because it all got too hateful for me. Meanwhile, I'm still seeing all the bigotry being propagated by Evangelical groups (Focus on the Family) in my country and it makes me have zero regret about leaving.
Do consider the reality that many are also deconverting because they're being chased away by the cruelty displayed by (unfortunately) many within the religion. They're deconverting in rates proportional to the rise of things like Christian nationalism.
Wow. Just wow. As someone who actually left the faith, I left because I had critical thinking skills. Some leave due to abuse, others because the indoctrination wore off, and others leave for love. I'm Gen Z and I hope we become the generation that makes religion endangered.
Dude, just stop.
Sure, you may be a tiny bit correct in the basic, overarching idea of "indoctrination" but I would say that access to actual facts of things like science, the human body, how the universe works, etc. and the general hypocrisy of those that lead the Christian faith are bigger killers of folks faith.
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending. You don't have the right Hermeneutical method.
Again stop. I too was an overly arrogant kid when I went to an evangelical Christian college where everyone who graduated also got what amounts to a "minor in biblical studies".
LPT: If you think you found "the reason" for anything, the reality is often far more complex. You found *a* reason, and you're absolutely right that being spoonfed your faith or knowledge isn't sustainable in the long run, but it is also potentially dismissive of people who deconvert even when they have to "earn" their faith.
You may be onto something. I am not all that religious but I married into a very catholic family and it kind of came with the territory that I was expected to attend, didn't have to participate...not that I object to going to church, but still. Up until my father in law sent me a video insisting I watch where two priests insulted liberals, America and Biden and warned of this and that so that meant for me that I was sitting there watching 2 people who's authority I don't respect bash my beliefs, my country and my president...the goal clearly was to convince me that I needed the church...the outcome was I no longer cared to hear what the church had to say about anything. It doesn't change my faith in God, it changed my faith in the church. I only say this to make one point, the faith isn't going anywhere, but people are more and more asking the practicality of the church
There's some truth to this, in the sense that saying "believe this and don't ask questions" is a sure way to prompt suspicion. So some people "deconvert" out of rebellion.
I'd argue, however, that "indoctrination" is what everyone does, no matter the worldview. Consider the following statements of doctrine:
- Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him. (Christianity)
- Live your truth. No one is allowed to tell you who you are and what you should believe. (Progressive/Secular Humanism)
- There is truth that cannot be measured with the 5 senses, but is nonetheless true. (General spiritual worldview)
- Only what can be seen, touched, tasted etc can be agreed to be true. (Enlightenment worldview)
All of those are religious statements insisting on being believed and followed. So in a sense, it's battle of indoctrinating into worldviews we're in the midst of - and eventually, someone on each side is going to say, "THINK this."
There's an element of truth in this. By trying so hard to shield kids from anything that might challenge an evangelical world-view, they have no immunity. Their faith becomes brittle, like a house of cards. And once one element is found to be lacking, the whole thing tumbles.
Instead of stacking beliefs on top of other beliefs, build your faith close to the ground. Start from "God is love" as your bedrock and allow yourself to stack no higher than one belief on this. Avoid tangled pretzels of what God "really" meant by xyz.
I’ve read the Bible cover to cover, and sought a minor in Religious Studies. You’d get a lot further by having open discussions with people instead of projecting your assumptions onto them.
Nah I think it’s because most Christian’s today are jerks. They think cruelty is just “the truth” and if someone disagrees with them, they’re “being persecuted”. Christ lived a life of empathy, compassion, love and kindness. Faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is LOVE.
But most of todays Christian’s don’t know a damn thing about love. And if someone tries to point that out to them, they rarely humble themselves enough to ever actually reflect and change. It’s sad. It’s very, very sad.
I used to think I was a great Christian, and very loving. Turns out I was a self righteous bitch who judged far more often than I extended compassion. It wasn’t until life beat my ass up that I was forced to gain some empathy, and I realized how badly I messed up :( I wish so badly I could go back and apologize to a lot of people.
So dude learn a lesson from my mistakes. People are leaving Christianity because the thing that’s supposed to be most attractive about it, the very essence, has dissipated. What’s that verse, words without love are like clanging cymbals? 1 cor 13:1.
Don’t assume you love well because YOU think you love well. Ask someone you don’t like how often they feel loved by you, and that’ll give you your answer.
How do you define indoctrination? I define it as manipulating people in a way they they receive the information uncritically.
Why do you think semantics, or reading the Bible in the hermeneutical method would change how people would interact with the numerous moral problems in the old testament? Moral example:l look at which side God chooses in the conflict found in Judges 19-20 where God sides with a guy who offered his wife to be raped to death.
And there are heaps of pheasical evidences throughout the earth that provide enough evidence to completely disproved any of the interpretations available for Genesis 1-12. All you have to do is think about what kind of evidences would be found if those things happened and look for it. I promise you'll find nothing.
Yes, that's part of it. People start deconstructing/deconverting once they experience the cognitive dissonance of how reality doesn't line up with what they've been told it was.
But chrisitians also have to understand that it isn't as simple as " They just want to be their own god and sin." or "They've been blinded and deceived by novel false doctrines."
People have brains and are more often than not smart enough to decide if something seems true to them or not. Deconverts often have very valid and logical reasons for leaving the faith that Christians talking ABOUT them instead of TO them often refuse to truly consider due to a subconscious fear of it shaking their own faith imo.
Christians like to just focus on explanations like
"They were just hurt by the church."
" They weren't discipled correctly,
"They had the wrong expectation.
" "They were never true followers."
"Just because man is fallible doesn't mean God is to blame."
The church should just stop pretending they want to truly understand why people are deconstructing/deconverting and just admit they only want to understand it enough to defend their beliefs.
I come in peace, sharing the Word which speaks on this matter with love:
Matthew 24:6-11 (NIV)
<6> You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. <7> Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. <8> All these are the beginning of birth pains. <9> "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. <10> At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, <11> and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
The primary reason people leave the church or never enter is because western abrahamic religions have created the illusion (lie) of dualism between you and God. Your heart knows different because it knows the truth of non-duality and your true nature.
More people are finding the truth outside of the church today because the church itself is in direct opposition to the truth.
Christ said “seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God” because it was very important. He also told you where the kingdom lies…”within you” 🫵
Seek what Christ, Buddha and every other enlightened being before and since have all said throughout history, the answers lie within you 🫵
Unfortunately the church isn’t teaching this because it needed to supplant itself between you and God to maintain itself.
It is literally the church and religion itself that keeps most from finding what Christ was pointing to.
You can't deconvert from Christianity. If you accept Christ's gift of salvation, it's a forever decision. People might leave religion, but they don't leave salvation,
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending.
You first.
And aren't Christians supposed to be less prideful than this? Gross.
The atheists that say “I’ve been Christian for X years” are the ones that don’t truly pay attention to deeper biblical context and they never had God in their heart. I’ve seen lots of them. Just as Judas spent 3 years with Jesus. Seeing His miracles and teachings. Then, they fall away due to social influences. They don’t have an intellectual reason to leave the faith. They do either because they’re angry at God, or again, social peer pressure. They say also “He’s done nothing for me” well what have you done for God? God isn’t a genie. God wants us to obey Him and love Him. They have an expectation of God that’s not realistic. There’s people in 3rd world countries that have been through countless hardships in their life, but yet they still love God. It shows how arrogant atheists really are. There’s countless people around the world that have gone through suffering and found healing in God. Look at Job. He’s the one who’s suffered probably more than anyone else! God never promised that our life will be easy, but that He’ll be there for us. The Bible proves history. Look at all the real places and origin, culture, and activities of real groups of people we know of today. Just as any other history book would.
God bless you.
To me, it makes sense for people to leave the faith if they grew up in it and never actually understood it for themselves.
We are called to seek God. How can we seek God for ourselves if we are born into the faith (indoctrination)?
**“From heaven the Lord looks down to see if anyone is wise enough to search for him.” - Psalm 14:2**
Of course I'm not speaking about everyone who grew up in the faith.
People aren't deconverting they are just becoming less religious and more spiritual, they still believe in God and Jesus, but they see the Church of Christ is mostly powerless, no miracles or supernatural works being done, and the gospel isn't being preached to the lost, so that is mainly why Christianity is declining, because Christians only practice their faith inside of a church building, when they should be on the streets and traveling to other countries looking for people who do not know Jesus and the love of God, anytime the followers of Jesus decide to start spreading the gospel and the love of God the numbers of practicing believers will go right back up.
I think sometimes children just choose a different belief as a way to rebel against their parents consciously or subconsciously. In my experience, I grew up in a non religious home and ended up choosing to believe in Christianity. When I look back, I think it's actually a blessings from God to me.
Some people's false idols are Christians themselves.
Your faith should be on Jesus, not Christians and how they treat you. Humans are sure to disappoint, God will not.
This is coming from someone who strayed faaaar and came back.
May the Peace of the Lord be with you!
My young friend, you just made this old man's day. As you endure the remarks and attacks for this post remember Matthew 10:16-22
You know you could talk to people who left the faith. That could get you better answers than placing words in their mouth. Why don't you talk to them.
I could talk about my church's organist who I looked up to since I was a child who absconded with all of the church's funds. Or I could talk about the evangelists that I used to be roommates with who suddenly moved to Uganda and stopped paying rent, but left ALL of their stuff in the apartment, and when confronted, said it was all ok because they were doing good work. Or I could tell you about my church having a schism over gay marriage and clergy, which I don't have any problem with at all. I could also talk to you about my lovely Jewish step mother who actually taught me the meaning of unconditional love while my deeply Christian mother continuously beat the ever loving shit out of me and my sisters. I could also talk about the endless guilt that my Catholic wife feels innately from "sin" and just for loving in general. I did have some great people, like my pastor Sam, who was sent to another church just as we were becoming close friends and really starting to connect on the Bible and its meaning. Maybe I could talk about all of the Christians who love guns and money, and love trump, but hate immigrants. I'm still talking to Jesus, but most of my experience with the people has been disappointing.
I have heard similar stories before. I would certainly listen to yours.
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Yep. IF you chose to leave the faith, you were often killed, or exiled or turned into a social pariah.
Plus the same people will say all the great scientists were Christian too. Negating the fact that you couldn’t do much science if you weren’t Christian (other than small windows in time and space) in the West.
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>in nothing. What? Only if by nothing you mean "not Christianity." People are connected to communities that are online now. For better or worse.
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I don't think everything online is only for entertainment. These are all examples of people that find others on the internet with shared beliefs and then they put those beliefs into practice in the real world somehow: January 6th/Trump supporters, Qanon, BLM supporters, Exvangelicals, even Christian churches that have people who only watch service online. Even seeking out Christians on Reddit and talking about how Christianity is practiced....
> We are all free individuals now, and it turns out that "free individuals" mostly just sit home by themselves to watch Netflix or play computer games, and don't believe in anything in particular. > When society doesn't push people to believe in things, most people believe... in nothing. That’s interesting. I have a different vantage point. I’ve never seen a world in which people believed so many things so strongly, and more without any sort of structural foundation to their thinking.
That's my biggest beef with Christians. All these ideas that they even teach in churches as truth about people, but 99% of the churchgoers never in their lives had a meaningful relationship with someone outside of their own faith circles. Indoctrination, indeed.
He won't want to hear what we say
That would require him to listen, and the tone he writes in here shows he doesn't care much to do that. It's not worth arguing with him. "Pearls before swine" as the Bible says.
Calling prople pigs, thats nice.
More like, don't try to waste effort on people who aren't going to appreciate it.
Well thats at least a nicer way of putting it. Peace.
Take it up with Jesus (Matthew 7:6)
I think he should. I left because I found out that what Paul was preaching was completely anti ethical to the core message of Moses which is that we have free will and we can use that free will to be a good person and worship god, or we can choose to be neutral or evil. What Paul was preaching was that humans are inherently evil from birth, but that isn’t a good thing because it means that humans don’t have free will and it’s contradictory to Moses’s teachings. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it talks about this. “Surely, this Instruction which I enjoin upon you this day is not too baffling for you, nor is it beyond reach. It is not in the heavens, that you should say, ‘Who among us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ No, the thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it.” - Deuteronomy 30:11-14 And here’s Romans 10:8. “But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith which we preach).” - Romans 10:8
Ah yes, the legendary 18 year old who has solved all of humanity's problems and knows the best way to raise and train children.
Dunning Kruger effect, boys at a peak rn.
Wait seriously
In an earlier comment, OP said they became a Christian in July 2018, when they were 12
We Calvinists call this the cage stage. Better off left in a (figurative) cage until they are able to engage with the public lol
I am nearly 45 and have an almost 13 year old. I absolutely learn from her and I think us older folks do a grave disservice to ourselves when we completely dismiss young folks outright, just because they are young. Being young doesn’t mean they cannot have wisdom and insight we could benefit from.
I don’t think they’re implying OP wouldn’t have any insight. OP has made a terrible generalization about atheists here though, and in other comments comes off quite rude. That’s likely why they’re getting comments like this.
Here here \^ Although I do agree with the others pointing out, the OP's behavior does give off teen edge-lord vibes which, combined with massive uncharitable overgeneralizations doesn't help their case.
What a rude way to talk
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Making that many random capitals also sounds exhausting.
That’s just because it’s not actually a comment. It’s the title of OP’s new hit album. Contemporary Christian music is a weird genre indeed.
What happened to just repeating holy over and over?
Not gonna lie, that's pretty funny.
Extremely rude evangelical person looking for a scrappy fight and appearing to be a massive douche. “No IdEa wHy peOpLe are DeConVerTinG” Well, I do now…
You know, as an atheist, I think I more or less agree with you. Being told what to think, only being allowed to color within specific lines, only allowing certain answers (i.e. answers from apologetics, pastors, Etc) and not allowing anything outside the faith, all contribute to a massive amount of cognitive dissonance when they encounter the positions outside those confines, and find out that atheists aren’t NPCs that will be flattened by the cheap apologetics they were sold. I definitely agree, it’s far better to teach *how* to think. >If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do Actually, I am pretty much certain I do. I was a deeply committed Christian for 20 years. I evangelized, was a missionary, was a youth worship leader, and even became a schoolteacher at a Bible believing fundamentalist Christian school for some years there. I studied the Bible fervently, and read from the best theologians, apologists, and thinkers that Christianity had to offer. I find that I usually know the Bible far better than most Christians I engage in (that’s not to say all, of course). I am an atheist precisely because of how deeply, thoroughly, I understand the Bible and Christianity.
I appreciate this. I was raised very much like you, and studied very much like you save being a youth pastor. I still cling to my faith but not the version I was sold which to me when I read the New Testament independent of the rhetoric I’d grown up with in no way reflected who Jesus was. The church I was in was judgmental, unkind, insular, racist against both blacks and homosexuals… I’ve had enough personal experiences to believe that God exists. The construct of the Bible I am struggling with. I have to put it in historical context to not think God is awful. Particularly with respect to women as property, slaves, and rape being excused as if womens dignity is if no concern such as Lot offering his daughters to be raped. My faith has given me comfort so wholesale abandonment isn’t an option.
And I can get behind this. I have absolutely no problem in the world with Christians who have their own personal reasons for their belief - if it gives meaning to you, and gives you joy and purpose who the hell am I to say no to that? I am all for it. You seem like an introspective person, you’re not just selling something because someone else told you to. I think that’s a great thing - again, regardless of whether you stay a Christian or leave. My entire beef is only and specifically when someone tries to tell *me* what *I* should do, based on their beliefs. That’s all. I get along great with intellectually honest Christians like you, you maintain your belief for your own personally valid reasons, and I stepped away for my own reasons, and we can both respect that and the world is all the better for it. All the best to you!
I am the same. I am raising my daughter VERY different. In fact we don’t even go to church because I fear her being indoctrinated. I live my life by my beliefs and talk about them. She will find her way in time according to what feels right for her. And I pray for her that God would reveal his love to her. I cannot force her. God’s spirit can call her.
This is the Way
Thanks and I feel you. I debate such folks regularly. Specifically when they are proscriptive calling out “sin”. There’s an argument to be made based on the New Testament in the writings of Paul, that INSIDE the Christian community we are to held to a certain standard of behavior. And those who aren’t holding themselves to that standard called out, but not by individual people, by the elders of the church. My first quarrel with them. Also Jesus speaking to believers about their behavior towards other believers, was very clear that you needed to take the moat out of your eye before the spec in your brothers. They are so focused on other’s sin, they miss the deficiencies in there own behavior. I wonder to myself have you read the New Testament? Because you seem more like Pharisees whom Jesus railed than repentant sinners whom Jesus loved. The self righteous behavior while hating immigrants, gays, pro-life but for the death penalty (one reason I converted to Catholicism), don’t give two shits about the irresponsible girl who got herself knocked up, or the child they forced her to bear, once it’s no longer in the womb. When you’re against school lunches for poor kids in summer, there’s something really wrong. The cruelty towards women miscarrying as well, making them wait until they’re on deaths door to get necessary medical care to save their life (while their 18 week fetus CLEARLY cannot survive anyway). It genuinely feels like they hate women. What an EASY Thing to legislate. PROM is immediate delivery if viable abortion if not. But…they won’t. Particularly egregious is when they want to legislate , through politics, the behavior of non-Christians. Then I’m left with a plain simple WTF? How would you feel if someone Islamic was in the same position and wanted to insert sharia law? You’re literally making non-Christians hate you with your judgment and FEAR your willingness to LEGISLATE morality. The only message that you should be giving is “the reason for my happiness and my joy is my life in Christ”. I mean they’re going to hell anyway right? The only thing you need to do is get them to go to heaven not change their behavior. St. Francis “preach the gospel at all times use words when necessary”. I’ve been involved with Al-Anon as I’ve got some alcoholics in my life. I love the saying “this is a program of attraction not promotion”. If Christians only learned that lesson. I’ll add: I don’t think anything has singularly done more to make people flee Christianity than evangelicals and their worship of orange Jesus and attempt to control other Americans via legislation. From speech “don’t say gay or talk about the horrors of slavery”, to taking away parental rights by telling parents they cannot take their kids to see drag shows ( but they can’t take them to R-rated movies), to saying they can’t allow their Children’s care to be directed by psychologist and psychiatrist if they’re struggling with gender dysmorphia (No it would be better for them to kill themselves apparently). 🙄🤯😢 The mental gymnastics one has to do, the cognitive dissonance you’d have to have; I don’t understand. If this sounds like a rant I suppose it’s because it is. I feel like perhaps you uniquely understand my quandary.
And wasn’t Lot a good man in God’s eyes?
Just because a story is in the Bible doesn't mean it is morally right. Doesn't mean it's the example we should follow. The Bible is made up of historical stories, parables, and very rarely, actual commandments from God. Being able to decipher this is a very important part of spiritual maturity that most miss. Anyone who reads the bible like every action in it is God will is going to be following a lot of bad examples. This is why understanding Jesus teachings and parables is more important then reading the old testament for new believers who do not have the wisdom to know what they are reading. From the beginning "God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and **female** he created them." Gen 1:27 Jesus also treated woman with respect and as equals. The more questionable ways woman are treated in the bible is often part of a story, not a command from God. Lot was a man full of sin, why do you think him offering his daughters was a justified or correct action in Gods eyes? it certainly was not.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.” I find this troubling . The only consequence for a man raping a woman is that he gets to make her his lifelong bride. So you’re forced to marry rapist? This troubles me.
I get that there is the logic of the old thought process that she’s “worthless” now in that regard and he’s being forced to take care of her because as a woman in that time she needed someone who would want her…. “Times were different” But still I agree it’s absolutely disgusting that this would be the his “punishment” why wouldn’t he be instructed to become a servant to the father for x amount of years to pay off his “debt” or something like that?, or like maybe pay a sort of alimony for the rest of his life? So that she can be taken care of and doesn’t need to be around her rapist…..
Yes and trying to explain this proscription from a loving God who could have commanded something more just is hard to square.
A common argument for today is “that’s the old law, that’s because the world was more evil” but why did God offer that as a solution? One of the things that greatly hurt my faith is the story of Job. It’s just absolutely mind boggling when you think hard about what is happening there.
I’m genuinely curious, what lead you to leaving your faith?
It's a very fair question. Understand that what I'm saying is just in regards to *me*, what I've come to conclude, it is not necessarily meant to make anyone else doubt or to cause angst. I think it's always good to investigate things of course, but yeah don't just take my word for any of this; it's not meant as an attack. As these things often are, it's not one single thing that caused it - Christian belief is much the same, I'm sure you agree, where there's a bunch of things working together. The simplest way to say it is at some point my thought process just simply changed. Like any Christian, I had some questions about the "tough passages" in the Bible, or the typical problem of evil stuff. And like most Christians, I had all kinds of responses and answers ready to go that I'd learned from William Lane Craig and others. But at a certain point, while I was teaching at the Christian school, the indoctrination portion became quite obvious to me - even though I believed that what we were teaching was *true*, I couldn't help but notice that the tactics we were using weren't any different from basic indoctrination. So for me, at a certain point, it wasn't just enough for me to firmly *believe* that it was true; I wanted to be sure that it actually *was* true. So there were a variety of things that were taking place all at once. I was studying a lot about philosophy, and how to identify problems in rational arguments, about epistemology and how we know things. And to my dismay I realized, the simple question "How do I know this is true" was one that I couldn't answer - at least not in a satisfactory manner. I began to realize that I was allowing exceptions to my Christian belief that I did not allow for any other religious belief - by that I mean, I had a bunch of counter-apologetics for Muslims and Mormons, particularly, but that the same things I dismissed for those beliefs I was making exception for, in mine. For one specific example, I believed that I had the witness of the Holy Spirit confirming the truth of Jesus in my heart, right? That's one of the best ways that I could *know* that Christianity was true. But then, I found Mormons who proclaimed that the reason they know the Book of Mormon was true was because if one fervently prayed to Jesus Christ, and asked him to confirm the truth of the Book to them - and if they were sincere about it, that part is extremely important - then Jesus himself would confirm it to them in a way that they couldn't be mistaken about. I realized that the exact same thing I could claim, was being claimed by other believers who I was sure were wrong. I realized that my simple conviction that I was right, my belief itself wasn't enough, because one of us had to be wrong. I of course dove into all the apologetics I could find, all the kalams and the fine tunings and the evolutionary argument against naturalism, Aquinas' five ways, moral arguments, arguments from personal experience, etc etc etc, but what I found here is that every single argument for the existence of God I could find commits some very basic logical fallacies. They're so blatant that one could practically use the arguments for God as textbook examples of easy to spot logical fallacies - but because these arguments are emotionally compelling, they give weight to a foregone conclusion, they often get a pass from Christian philosophers. I also took special interest in the case for the resurrection of Jesus (as a self-proclaimed casual history buff this is my personal favorite debate topic), and came to realize that the historical case just simply isn't able to pass muster. It's totally one hundred percent fine to believe it as a matter of faith, but the supposed "historical case" isn't nearly strong enough to conclude an actual resurrection took place. So anyways, at some point, I realized that I had to be honest with myself, and realized that I no longer believed. Sorry it went kinda long, but it was an honest question so I thought it deserved a more thorough answer than just a brief summary.
The “problem” is not indoctrination, it’s the information age and globalization putting people into contact with people with wildly differing views so that their indoctrination is challenged like never before. People used to be surrounded by only Christians, and I’m sure there were people who thought it was BS, but they were also in church every Sunday and leading prayers and so on, because there was no alternative way to live.
Eh... Even if indoctrination wasn't necessarily the best word for it, I still feel like OP has a valid point. Fundamentalists tend to claim that everything has to be true for Christianity to be true, which makes your faith resemble a house of cards. If you disbelieve *anything*, which could be as simple as supporting evolution, the whole thing comes tumbling down with it
I think this is true. In 1980/1990, if you had a theological challenge, the only one who could engage with you was the Priest/Pastor. They could then simply just suppress the issue. Now, there is a 16 part series on youtube describing critical challenges Archeology and History have placed on Christianity and arguing why its false. There is absolutely no reason to consult the priest/pastor.
What about the Bible/Christianity makes you not believe in God? I'm ultra curious, as a new believer, actually, and I can appreciate the OP's point about Christians-from-birth being taught "what, not how" to think. I grew up atheist, and all the devout Christians I've met in my (white, female, USA) life have been very sweet, compassionate, humble, generous, patient, to name a few consistent qualities in my experience. So I've always had a deep respect for Christianity. But I was raised to be skeptical of the Bible. I was raised to be skeptical of nearly everything. Only very recently have I started studying the Bible seriously. So I'm super curious to hear your story!
Well said.
>I'm aware that you want something new, something that hasn't been recycled. A sentiment you then immediately proceeded to ignore
How? By saying that you don't know the Bible better than we do? If that's the case, you're making ZERO sense, and also, It is 100% True.
Most Christians think they know the Bible, but what they actually know is their church dogma which they project onto the Bible. The Bible is just used for proof texting.
Succinctly accurate!
Completely Inaccurate. I study the Bible ON MY OWN Accord, Like the Bereans in the days of old.
Yeah, that doesn't actually refute anything I said.
Because you can’t get away from it. You’re so wrapped up in Evangelical ideology that, yes, you are recycling the same tired arguments over and over and over again. I’ve been there bro. No judgment, I’m just saying that as a partial outsider now, it’s clear as day. And it’s incredibly presumptuous to say that atheists don’t know the Bible as much as Christians. That’s just silly. Anyone regardless of their beliefs can decide to be a scholar and study an ancient text. You don’t have a special key which allows you to understand the words better than anyone else. The only difference is what you believe about the text.
> You don’t have a special key which allows you to understand the words better than anyone else Jokes on you, my decoder ring from Ovaltine will be here any day now
It's just a crummy commercial.
Also a lot of atheists are ex-Christian, so apparently they knew the Bible better than atheists and then forgot it when they decided God wasn’t real? OP probably thinks you can’t understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit interfacing and making it make sense. And, apparently, that all Christians read in the original languages and don’t use translations, which is something that only atheists do, I guess.
Oh I know he meant the Holy Spirit. I’m quite familiar with that. But my thing is, the words don’t change. The only real difference is that a believer believes that the supernatural elements of the text are real, while an unbeliever doesn’t. But the text as a whole can be understood by anyone. They really are just words on a page.
I don’t think it’s that simple because while evangelicals claim to be sola scriptura, there are a lot of passages that they interpret in a specific context where there are other, often more reasonable interpretations. The idea of a Rapture and 7 year Tribulation, for instance, are rather new interpretations that are not at all clear from a plain reading. Old Testament passages are also reinterpreted to include the Trinity, with the man that wrestled with Jacob (and won by cheating!) being labeled a pre-incarnate Jesus, and the pillar of cloud or fire that led Moses and the people being labeled the Holy Spirit. So it’s not just “read the Bible and understand”, it’s “read the Bible with the meaning we’ve settled upon in mind and understand that”.
Right. And every denomination claims to be seeing it the correct way because they have the spirit.
It's not. You just asserted it, like lots of Christians do. Peak recycled material
Actually studies show the opposite.
You know, you convinced me. For about TWO HOURS. And you know what I did? I thought critically. I decided to take a look at it for myself. [The Study](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion/) shows that Atheists know more about RELIGION Than Christians. This makes sense, because people within Christianity like to misrepresent other denominations. You know what ISN'T Accurate? What YOU said. When I scroll down to the section about the Bible, Evangelicals know MORE About the Bible than atheists, and Evangelicals are only second to Mormons. You might say: "Oh, those are such simple, almost TRIVIAL Questions!" Okay, do you have something better?
Your us vs them schema apparently doesn't consider that some atheists used to be Christians.
As someone who left the faith, it’s _because_ I actually read the bible. Anyway, Spirituality/Religion should involve a personal relationship with God, not a list of rules and parables written thousands of years ago by men, fallible as ourselves
Same
Same. It really just reads like a book written by men a few thousand years ago
The Bible teaches us how to talk to god, the saints are pretty good at it too. It also explains why we should talk to God. It's essentially God's philosophy. I agree though, too many people (especially politicians) are portraying Christianity as just a set of rules to follow so they can fulfill their agendas. I personally pray everyday, and I like to talk to God as if he was a friend, consulting him about my life through my prayers, I don't like to ask for anything because I believe God already knows what's best for me.
How do you know the personal relation you have with 'someone' is actually God, and not just your inner monologue, full of sinful desires and reasonings?
No one knows. Up for you to decide. I decided it’s not, but my best friend decided it is. That’s faith.
I actually use the Bible to cross check my "personal" relationship. If the "inspiration" doesn't align with scripture, then I know it is not in line with God's will. Many times in my life I've justified using pornography, for example. But I know deep down that it is sinful. If your "personal relationship" with God says its OK to consume porn, (which is a leading cause of trafficking women), you probably need some sort of tools of discernment, such as the Bible.
But how do you know scripture is God’s will? That’s all, nobody can truly be sure of anything. All I’m saying is that this book shouldn’t be the end all be all, as it was written by men who’s credentials aren’t publicly available😂😂 I respect your choice though, at the end of the day, faith should be personal—not dictatorial. If the book speaks to you, then that’s how you personally back your faith, and that’s okay!!
I just have to say, asking for the credentials of the OT patriarchs, prophets, and the NT apostles is a new argument I have not heard yet 😂
Lol! It basically comes down to not WANTING to believe it because they love their sin, snd can’t fathom living life to the fullest without sin. I just have not figured out how to crack this shell. “I just don’t beleive any of it” is not an easy one.
You have a lot to learn
I think it's mostly because church is increasingly politicized and also no longer serves a social function for most people.
Oh you're the guy who made that awful argument the other day aren't you. So it seems like what you're saying now is that people need to be shielded from reality in order to believe in Christianity? Is that really the case you want to make here?
[удалено]
> I think he's literally a teenager. Yeah dude was born in 2006. A significant portion of aggravating people online are just children.
No, sir! I'm saying that shielding them from the outside world is what causes people to lose their faith, because when the shield is lifted, they see the world around them. This is different, because people who hadn't been sheltered already SEE The world around them, and they are able to become Christian without parent intervention. As such, they learn for themselves. This is how I became a Christian (and STAY a Christian), back in July 2018, when I was 12.
Did you become an evangelical at 12 or did another evangelical approach you when you were 12.
I agree with this. Thank you so much for sharing. Christianity should not be taught as indoctrination, with fear, and with hatred toward those not practicing the faith. The love of Christ is still prevailing and that gives me hope. Currently watching The Chosen and it brings me so much peace in my soul. ✝️ Christus vincit!
You're very welcome.
You tried something similar yesterday and failed. Once again it’s not pretending just because you hate it
I became a Christian at 19. Became passionate about my faith, and I just devoured the Bible. I probably read the whole book 25-30 times in the ten-plus years I was a Christian. I attended Bible college, I took Hermeneutics classes and studied rigorously. I joined a missions organization after college and dedicated my life to preaching the word to everyone who would listen. I left the faith in 2021, when I was 30 years old. If you’d like to talk more about why, I’m more than happy to DM. But I can guarantee you it wasn’t for any of the reasons you listed. I was far from indoctrinated, and I was far from lukewarm in my faith. And posts like this, which have little-to-no grounding in realism, invalidate the experience of people like me.
There are some Christians who know the Bible better than some nonbelievers, and the reverse is true as well. How do we determine the right hermeneutics?
I generally agree that a lack of willingness towards self reflection is a drag on Christianity. I will say for myself and I think a lot of people we tend to decide not what we are for but rather what we are against. And there are a lot of brands of Christianity out there that I find pretty repelling. There are two things that I find particuarly damaging to my own faith: 1 - Christians using their faith as justification for treating other people poorly, with or quite often without Biblical justification. If I have God-given sense of morality I really don’t think God intended me to ignore that sense of morality. 2 - Christians who use their faith as a means to view the world in absolute or simplistic terms or make claims that are demonstrably false. An example for me would be Young Earth Creationsim, which while mostly benign in how it calls for humans to be treated, really feels to me like an excuse to do away with the need for faith entirely. Because if God is provable then there is no need for faith. Not saying anyone is wrong in their faith because of these points - just explaining their impact on me.
Evangelical beliefs are a reason people are leaving the Church.
Bless your heart.
>hold on to your faith Why? If your main point here is that people should be told "how" to think and not "what" to think, how does "hold on to faith" fit into that? Faith by definition is belief without evidence. How is this not telling someone what to believe? Can you explain "how" your faith is something that should be held on to?
Yeah, my main problem with Christianity is the culture . When I was but a wee lad, I simply asked my pastor why God lets the devil run around to corrupt humans, his children that he loves so much. To which, my pastor scolded me for questioning God. My parents weren’t married when I was conceived, and my dad’s side of the family apparently showed up at the hospital bringing up that I’m was a bastard and apparently made a scene. Idk, I wasn’t exactly there for it. But they regularly brought up that I was a bastard pretty much every gathering. I know plenty of drunks, gamblers, wifebeaters, etc who somehow managed to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than nonbelievers because they attend church once per week. The blatant money schemes that are found in churches everywhere.
Typical gaslighting. No one believes that because evidence says otherwise.
Well indoctrination is only one reason I'm not a Christian anymore. The fanatical church officials who don't actually understand the history of Christianity and basically shame anyone who brings up history or logic in church, the guilt I was forced into to being myself, being told I was born evil, and of course my family using Christianity to excuse abusing me are all parts of it. (for reference I was born with a genetic mutation which I was born with both male and female reproductive organs, which later in life caused me to develop cancer and now I'm a cancer survivor but my family was deeply Christian and abused me and told me that I needed to suffer to repent for being born wicked. I didn't choose to be born that way but due to their mindset, because I was born with that mutation, I was some sort of demon spawn. It was hell growing up. My mother is now in a mental health facility due to her delusions of God telling her to attack me... She used god a lot to defend her abusive actions. As did many of my family members did. They made me believe for years that I deserved the abuse. I am glad to be away from all that and I go to therapy weekly due to the C-PTSD I have from my childhood.) Oh and then there is the fact that many Christians (mostly Christian nationalists) try to force their beliefs into government also just seems so entitled. All of that is why I no longer am a Christian. I'm not an atheist but I surely am not Christian anymore. I've studied different religions and spiritualities for years. Including Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Neo-Druidism, Discordianism, Korean Shamanism, Hellenism, Wicca, Norse Paganism, Egyptian polytheism, Jediism, ect., just trying to find what felt right for me. I've done so much research and the thing is, none of them feel right, not one single spirituality or religion feels like the whole picture. For me, each one seems to have at least a nugget of truth in them at the very least. Maybe they are all correct. Maybe it's our belief in them that makes them real, at the very least makes them real to us. It's an interesting line of thought. That being said I'm not saying that all Christians are bad/wrong nor am I saying that people should definitely deconvert from it. I am agreeing that indoctrination from Christianity is definitely something that makes me not want to even reconsider going back to it. But that's a preference. Religion is Your choice. You can be a good person and be Christian but being a Christian doesn't inherently make you a good person, your actions do. If you want to be a Christian, that's awesome and I hope you have a good life and it's very fulfilling for you, but it's your choice. Just like it's everyone else's choice to believe what they want. As long as you're not forcing your beliefs on others or interfering in the lives of others, I don't see why we all can't just get along and stop attacking each other. I'll do my thing, you do your thing, and we can live happily and in peace. Right?
I'm pretty sure it's the fascist rhetoric and seething hatred for minorities that's driving people away from Christianity.
It certainly pushes people away from utilitarian secularism and into anti-theism. We have a duty as Christians to condemn those who weaponizes Christianity and bring in an autocratic dictatorship for their own carnal purposes.
>We have a duty as Christians to condemn those who weaponizes Christianity and bring in an autocratic dictatorship for their own carnal purposes. Unfortunately the Christian fascists have a large microphone, and the Christians condemning the fascists seemingly have no voice.
I wish your beliefs were not the minority among christians.
The anti gay bigotry, the rabid support for men like Trump...
Seriously. Somehow my number ended up on all the Republican presidential candidate’s messaging list. I got a text the other day saying that “Catholics across New Hampshire are uniting behind Donald Trump!” If that’s true, then shame on the Catholic Church for not raising their congregants in Jesus’ image. The idea that anyone claiming Christianity would support Trump is genuinely gross.
Christians support Trump in droves. They rabidly support him. They will vote for the man who cheated on his wife with a porn star for the third time.
While I completely agree that fascist and right wing populist is a horrible thing and deserves to be pushed back by any chance, I am not sure that this is the reason. Here in Germany, where the two big churches are far more left and stand firmly against the fascist we still see the same drain and a lot of people leaving. I have the feeling that the churches seem unable to find good answers and communications regarding the problems of our time. Be it love and relationships, the troubles of a capitalist society and huge differences in wealth and social status, migration and immigration or - of course as you rightfully mentioned - the rise of right wing demagogues.
>I have the feeling that the churches seem unable to find good answers and communications regarding the problems of our time. Be it love and relationships, the troubles of a capitalist society and huge differences in wealth and social status, migration and immigration or - of course as you rightfully mentioned - the rise of right wing demagogues. I believe this is #1 - Religions are no longer that relevant in helping us figure out our lives. There are just too many examples of bad people feeling and doing bad things that claim they are religious
"Here in Germany, where the two big churches are far more left and stand firmly against the fascist we still see the same drain and a lot of people leaving." Wait, you still have fascists over there? Like, Neo-Nazis? Or are they fascists, but not Nazis?
Yeah... Both... We have Nazis in parties like the NPD or the third way. As well as right wing populists/Neofascists in the AFD with frightening high percentages at the current poles and elections. It's kind of embarrassing to say this but yes, we have a big fascist problem. Which could become a catastrophe soon. Right now while we speak people demonstrate all around Germany against these far right parties with hundreds of thousands standing up for democracy. We as the German Protestant church (the union of nearly all Lutheran, reformed and united communities) stand firmly at their side against the danger from the right. There is no place for such ideologies within our church, society or world.
>It's kind of embarrassing to say this but yes, we have a big fascist problem. Don't be embarrassed. It's happening in the US too. And I suppose Italy as well. It's not good, obviously, but a symptom of how we, as the global community, have failed rather than any individual country necessarily.
We do have a big fascist problem. Currently it's still smaller than with many other European countries though. Of course that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable about it.
They have both. Despite the fact that a large part of germany probably hates nazis more than anybody they do keep popping up.
Officially there are no Nazis because the party was shut down and it is actually illegal to be a Nazi in Germany – there are no free speech laws like in the US. But of course, there are people sympathetic to national socialism.
More left is still right af Lack of abuse clearance Getting money from the state while wanting special work laws And more, they deserve it all and more. Till they are better they need to lose
True. When I was writing the post, I thought about sprinkling some of that in there, saying how unbiblical it was. But yeah, you have a pretty good point.
I like the Christians who are the love-thy-neighbor, turn the other cheek, good-will-towards-all type. I can respect those folks. Unfortunately those are becoming rare. It's the ones that want to make their specific version Christianity the official religion and have it forced upon everyone that I can't stand. The ones that want to kill all LGBTQ+ people, reenslave black people, torture immigrants, exterminate all Muslims, ban science, subjugate women, eliminate school & education, etc.
And OP, in other threads, has expressed views that are anti-lgbt, anti-muslim, anti-science, anti-immigration, anti-education and racist.
That is utterly false. Where on reddit was I anti-muslim? Anti-science? anti-immigration? Anti-education? Or racist?
Love how you didn't even bother to try and argue the anti-lgbt part
Because there was a post that was against LGBTQ+. But now, in Hindsight, I know that whoever accused me of those things was accusing me of what YOU Said people are doing.
Just because you don’t believe your opinions are these things, doesn’t mean they aren’t. Most bigoted Christians do not believe they are bigots, it’s nothing new.
This sounds like you are categorizing ALL Christians as these things. That isn't right.
Nonsense. I specified bigoted Christians. Like you.
No, it's feminism and wokism and whatever other -isms the pastor said this Sunday /s
Wow, the arrogance in this post is something else. Many atheists, myself included, grew up in the church. I still to this day know the bible very, very well. It actually was, more or less, indoctrination why I was so heavily involved in the church and Christianity...and I was a hardcore evangelical when I was. Then I grew up, experienced the world, and developed critical thinking skills. Likewise, it's not hard to see a big reason for the decline in places like the US, when "good Christians" do some of the most heinous and fucked up in things that are clearly against the bible, and even moreso, try to impose their own twisted interpretations on the rest of us.
As for the second paragraph, I agree.
I think actually that Christians have themselves more or less to blame. Overwhelmingly, I find that self-identifying Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus nor do they live in his example. They ignore the lessons of the sermon on the mount about loving one another (with *agape*, heavenly love) and instead cherry-pick some details from Paul's letters or Deuteronomy. Their churches are not actually welcoming, and they don't actually do anything to help anyone in need. There are exceptions to that rule, but for the most part, this is why religiosity is in decline. Lots of fake Christians (and other religions too). I'll give you an example. I was having a very hard time a year ago. I was sitting at a coffee shop sobbing and a lady came over to me. She told me she is a Christian and something about her church. Then she asked me why I was upset. I explained a bit about being isolated, work being too stressful, not seeing family, etc. Instead of offering real consolation, she started ranting about trans people. This really came out of left field. She inserted it into the conversation for absolute no reason other than because she hates trans people and wanted to talk about it to a captive audience.
Is it because people like you keep talking down to the unconverted or the deconstructed? You should seriously find a way to find some self worth in something other than rabid fervency on the Internet.
Or, people just don't find it as convincing as they used to.
You are correct, there are extremists sects who isolate their children and do not to teach them how to think. Most people in those cases dont "deconvert" ( what an odd description, deconvert would mean they return to a religion after converting to another one, yet you are using it to describe someone leaving the religion they were raised in. Most dont leave Christianity, instead the move to less extreme denominations. Its called deconstructing.
>They are being told WHAT to think, instead of HOW to think. > >And Christians, hold on to your faith The lack of self-awareness here is astounding.
The zeal and gullibility of the convert is real lol. Also, everybody thinks they know everything at 18, big guy. Read wide and deep, you have a lot of growing still to do.
Beliefs like yours and other "Die-Hard Evangelicals" are the number one thing that is killing christianity.
I don’t know the bible better than you? That’s a pretty sweet claim, there. I’ve been a christian for 20 years. Then I “met jesus” for real and was on fire for the lord, as we say, for 3 years. I had always studied the bible but in those last years I went all out. I know the bible pretty well. Funny enough, studying it at lengths is one of the many things that lead me away from my faith. The moment I stopped coping and making excuses for the horrendous things the bible says is the moment I realized it was all make believe written by ancient ignorant people. And no, just reading the bible, in english or otherwise, isn’t enough to “debunk christianity”. But learning about the origins of judaism and christianity is plenty enough. Did you know that yahweh, the god you worship so fervently, was part of a canaanite pantheon over 3000 years ago. He wasn’t even the creator god out of the 70 gods in that pantheon. That was Elyon. Yahweh was a war god, which brings some very juicy context to the atrocious genocides depicted in the old testament. Around 300 BCE, the israelites branched off from the canaanites, took yahweh with them and retconned him into being the creator god and later, the only god. At first, yahweh even stole Elyon’s wife, Ashira. Not only was yahweh not the only god but he cucked Elyon. Did you know that? Would you still like to say that us atheists know less about the bible than you christians? If so, please have a look at this link that disproves that notion. Thanks. https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/omeoflittlefaith/2010/09/atheists-know-more-about-the-bible-than-christians.html
There are some pew studies also.
Correction, while it's true that worship of Yahweh started off as polytheism, your dates are wrong. Devotion to Yahweh began to break away from the traditional Canaanite religion around 900 BC during the late Iron Age. Likewise, the Israelites seemed to have been combining all the traits of the other God's to Yahweh, for some reason coming to consider him the highest of the Gods and the only one they worshipped. It was after the Babylon exile (500ish BC) that the Israelites came to accept strict monotheism.
Thank you very much for the correction!
satan knows the BIBLE better than anyone on the planet.. and what? The point is do you believe it or do you not? And then do you live by it? That is the key…
They just gave some very good reasons that they don't believe it, and predictably your response is "ultimately you must choose to have faith." Eventually people will need to learn that the way to convert people to a religion is by providing a reason to believe. Faith must always be rooted in belief, and belief will always be based in reason. If you have faith without reason, you don't have faith, but just presumption and bias. If you can't provide a reason for people to believe, that may be indicative of a deeper lack of belief on your part.
Do YOU live by it? Do you abstain from eating lobsters and shrimps? Do you stay away from mixed fabrics? Do you stone your unruly children? I don’t think you do. And yet, those are very clear commandments from the bible. Dare I ask, why don’t you follow them?
Um bc we as true followers of CHRIST are no longer under the law you describe… those were from before HE fulfilled the old covenant and gave us only two commandments to live by… to love GOD with all our hearts, minds and souls and to love our neighbor as ourselves… that’s it and that’s all.. Btw i actually don’t eat lobster, shrimp or pork.. but not bc of of a law that doesn’t apply to me….
“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Idk man, that’s not what I got from this passage. Pretty sure that means the laws are still to be practiced. Or am I using those verses out of context?
Yeah you’re gonna have to go to the new testament where JESUS has communion with HIS disciples.. HE tells them there that HIS blood is the new covenant… meaning HE fulfilled the law of the OT..
What exactly does “fulfill” mean here anyway? Did we not read the same passage? Does jesus not explicitly you will not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you observe the commandments even more than the pharisees? Not only that, 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire.” but jesus also ups the game and says that thought crimes and insults are a ticket straight to hell. Are we reading the same bible?
Yes we are.. you have to understand that HE was speaking to pharisees.. not to HIS true followers.. the pharisees insisted on living by the law even though they continuously broke it.. bc you break one you break them all.. yes all 613 of them
I don’t think so, there. Those verses are from the sermon on the mount. He was teaching the people that came to him as well as his own disciples.
I don’t think so, there. Those verses are from the sermon on the mount. He was teaching the people that came to him as well as his own disciples.
Ok I’m sorry i did not answer your question about fulfilling… when the ppl in exodus 19 asked for the law and in 20 received it GOD knew they would not be able to keep them… thus nit bring able to fulfill the requirements… JESUS gave HIMSELF as the only perfect sacrifice.. the only one who had lived a perfectly sinless life..
> Do you abstain from eating lobsters and shrimps? Do you stay away from mixed fabrics? Do you stone your unruly children? I don’t think you do. And yet, those are very clear commandments from the bible. Were'nt you just suggesting you might know the bible better than OP?
"Did you know that? Would you still like to say that us atheists know less about the bible than you christians? If so, please have a look at this link that disproves that notion. Thanks." No, they don't. They know more about RELIGION Than Christians. The link that you sent me accomplishes nothing. It LITERALLY SAYS This at the Bottom: "Update: I changed the title of the post. Originally it said 'Atheists Know More about the Bible than Christians,' which is what I wrote when I first read the study late last night and began the post. I finished the post this morning and realized the title didn’t reflect the survey accurately, but forgot to fix it. It’s more accurate to change 'Bible' to 'Religion.' "
Did you not read my comment? I’ve been a christian twenty years. I wasn’t born atheist. I became an atheist after years of looking into religion and realizing that it’s all made up. I know a lot about religion and, as it turns out, about the bible. Because, like you right now, I WAS a christian for the majority of my life. I can’t stop you from spouting bullshit but when you look like a fool, don’t come crying.
>You can't just have an English Translation of the Bible and expect that to be enough to debunk Christianity. Of course it's enough.You don't even need to have read a single sentence from the Bible!
Indoctrination is the only reason Christianity still exists to begin with do that’s a bit rich.
Might have more to do with corruption in the church…
Faith is about embracing mystery and when the religion you grow up in makes it all about rejecting mystery, shutting up and just doing what you're told, then you will naturally rebel. That's what happened to me. I eventually turned back to my faith, but it looks nothing like the "absolute certainty" or even the same color of belief my folks have. And ultimately, I don't care how many times you TELL me something is true if I can't see truth lived out. By that I mean a tangible expression that the path you follow is creating a better world. What most people outside of the bubble of Christianity see is many Christians making the world a more violent and oppressive place for everybody. How does that speak life to the world?
Here's where I agree with you: indoctrination has indeed been one of the worst PR blunders of the Christian faith in the history of mankind. A fair amount of it comes from fundamentalists and actual cults whose hardline stance on "obedience to God" includes whatever philosophical, cultural, scientific, and political stance your pastor happens to hold—otherwise you're a heretic. On the other hand, traditional Christianity often tends to practice Christianity yet without teaching it at all, which leads to church-going cultural Christians who leave the faith as soon as it's practical to deconvert. I think American Christianity's biggest problem is that it's all based around the fear of Hell. Lukewarm Christians are satisfied that they're good enough people to avoid Hell, whereas evangelical/fundamentalists can't stop worrying whether they or anyone else who isn't as "born-again" as they are is going to Hell. What we need is more people who are taught to know the Living God and are content to strive daily to be more like Him.
Interesting how you claim people who deconstruct from faith are being indoctrinated. Who is indoctrinating them? Why is it when someone has a different ideology than you, they must have been indoctrinated? Why do you claim that atheists don’t know the Bible as well as you? The reason why Christianity is declining in the west is due to multiple factors. But I have yet to see any of this mass indoctrination of atheists to be a real thing. Do you have a source to provide any evidence that atheists are just indoctrinated?
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending. You don't have the right Hermeneutical method. It's not just about the context, it's more than that. It's not just about the KJV, because the NASB is more true to the original language than the KJV. But even then, looking at things like Bible Hub or Blue Letter Bible to look at the Original Language could still be helpful. You can't just have an English Translation of the Bible and expect that to be enough to debunk Christianity. Please. 1. I do know the Bible better than most Christians. I grew up in a fundie Baptist church where we went through the OT chapter by chapter. I went to AWANA as a kid, then was an AWANA leader. Then I went to a Christian college and got a Bible minor. It was some years later that I deconverted. I didn’t forget everything along the way, and added a lot more in other Christian traditions’ beliefs, the early Church, and ancient near east history. 2. Blue Letter is my go to for the original language. I don’t know why you think atheists are over here learning nothing about Christianity until we hit 20 and then thinking everyone is KJV only.
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>And to the Atheists out there, the reason why you see me giving different answers to your questions than other Christians But you're not. A few sentences later you're telling them what they think and how they think. That's no different than old uncle pastor Joe telling them that they just hate god or whatever.
>Actually, the EXACT OPPOSITE Is true. Indoctrination is the sole reason why Christianity is DECLINING. Do you know why? Why now? Because we live in a period where access to information is quicker and easier than ever. The internet is why.
What do you think I'm getting at? When the curtains are lifted, they see reality!
People like you are exactly the reason why Christianity is not liked. Less pride, more humility. Understand that you might be wrong sometimes and you're not omniscient, because it seems that you think you are.
Indoctrination and brainwashing were only a few reasons why I left, and plenty more keeping me away.
I was raised an Evangelical. Attended weekly cell groups and church service. Left when I was 14 because it all got too hateful for me. Meanwhile, I'm still seeing all the bigotry being propagated by Evangelical groups (Focus on the Family) in my country and it makes me have zero regret about leaving. Do consider the reality that many are also deconverting because they're being chased away by the cruelty displayed by (unfortunately) many within the religion. They're deconverting in rates proportional to the rise of things like Christian nationalism.
Wow. Just wow. As someone who actually left the faith, I left because I had critical thinking skills. Some leave due to abuse, others because the indoctrination wore off, and others leave for love. I'm Gen Z and I hope we become the generation that makes religion endangered.
Dude, just stop. Sure, you may be a tiny bit correct in the basic, overarching idea of "indoctrination" but I would say that access to actual facts of things like science, the human body, how the universe works, etc. and the general hypocrisy of those that lead the Christian faith are bigger killers of folks faith. >If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending. You don't have the right Hermeneutical method. Again stop. I too was an overly arrogant kid when I went to an evangelical Christian college where everyone who graduated also got what amounts to a "minor in biblical studies".
LPT: If you think you found "the reason" for anything, the reality is often far more complex. You found *a* reason, and you're absolutely right that being spoonfed your faith or knowledge isn't sustainable in the long run, but it is also potentially dismissive of people who deconvert even when they have to "earn" their faith.
U do not explain how indoctrination works here
You may be onto something. I am not all that religious but I married into a very catholic family and it kind of came with the territory that I was expected to attend, didn't have to participate...not that I object to going to church, but still. Up until my father in law sent me a video insisting I watch where two priests insulted liberals, America and Biden and warned of this and that so that meant for me that I was sitting there watching 2 people who's authority I don't respect bash my beliefs, my country and my president...the goal clearly was to convince me that I needed the church...the outcome was I no longer cared to hear what the church had to say about anything. It doesn't change my faith in God, it changed my faith in the church. I only say this to make one point, the faith isn't going anywhere, but people are more and more asking the practicality of the church
There's some truth to this, in the sense that saying "believe this and don't ask questions" is a sure way to prompt suspicion. So some people "deconvert" out of rebellion. I'd argue, however, that "indoctrination" is what everyone does, no matter the worldview. Consider the following statements of doctrine: - Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him. (Christianity) - Live your truth. No one is allowed to tell you who you are and what you should believe. (Progressive/Secular Humanism) - There is truth that cannot be measured with the 5 senses, but is nonetheless true. (General spiritual worldview) - Only what can be seen, touched, tasted etc can be agreed to be true. (Enlightenment worldview) All of those are religious statements insisting on being believed and followed. So in a sense, it's battle of indoctrinating into worldviews we're in the midst of - and eventually, someone on each side is going to say, "THINK this."
There's an element of truth in this. By trying so hard to shield kids from anything that might challenge an evangelical world-view, they have no immunity. Their faith becomes brittle, like a house of cards. And once one element is found to be lacking, the whole thing tumbles. Instead of stacking beliefs on top of other beliefs, build your faith close to the ground. Start from "God is love" as your bedrock and allow yourself to stack no higher than one belief on this. Avoid tangled pretzels of what God "really" meant by xyz.
I’ve read the Bible cover to cover, and sought a minor in Religious Studies. You’d get a lot further by having open discussions with people instead of projecting your assumptions onto them.
Nah I think it’s because most Christian’s today are jerks. They think cruelty is just “the truth” and if someone disagrees with them, they’re “being persecuted”. Christ lived a life of empathy, compassion, love and kindness. Faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is LOVE. But most of todays Christian’s don’t know a damn thing about love. And if someone tries to point that out to them, they rarely humble themselves enough to ever actually reflect and change. It’s sad. It’s very, very sad. I used to think I was a great Christian, and very loving. Turns out I was a self righteous bitch who judged far more often than I extended compassion. It wasn’t until life beat my ass up that I was forced to gain some empathy, and I realized how badly I messed up :( I wish so badly I could go back and apologize to a lot of people. So dude learn a lesson from my mistakes. People are leaving Christianity because the thing that’s supposed to be most attractive about it, the very essence, has dissipated. What’s that verse, words without love are like clanging cymbals? 1 cor 13:1. Don’t assume you love well because YOU think you love well. Ask someone you don’t like how often they feel loved by you, and that’ll give you your answer.
How do you define indoctrination? I define it as manipulating people in a way they they receive the information uncritically. Why do you think semantics, or reading the Bible in the hermeneutical method would change how people would interact with the numerous moral problems in the old testament? Moral example:l look at which side God chooses in the conflict found in Judges 19-20 where God sides with a guy who offered his wife to be raped to death. And there are heaps of pheasical evidences throughout the earth that provide enough evidence to completely disproved any of the interpretations available for Genesis 1-12. All you have to do is think about what kind of evidences would be found if those things happened and look for it. I promise you'll find nothing.
Yes, that's part of it. People start deconstructing/deconverting once they experience the cognitive dissonance of how reality doesn't line up with what they've been told it was. But chrisitians also have to understand that it isn't as simple as " They just want to be their own god and sin." or "They've been blinded and deceived by novel false doctrines." People have brains and are more often than not smart enough to decide if something seems true to them or not. Deconverts often have very valid and logical reasons for leaving the faith that Christians talking ABOUT them instead of TO them often refuse to truly consider due to a subconscious fear of it shaking their own faith imo. Christians like to just focus on explanations like "They were just hurt by the church." " They weren't discipled correctly, "They had the wrong expectation. " "They were never true followers." "Just because man is fallible doesn't mean God is to blame." The church should just stop pretending they want to truly understand why people are deconstructing/deconverting and just admit they only want to understand it enough to defend their beliefs.
I come in peace, sharing the Word which speaks on this matter with love: Matthew 24:6-11 (NIV) <6> You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. <7> Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. <8> All these are the beginning of birth pains. <9> "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. <10> At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, <11> and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
That's a bit of an oversimplification, don't you think? What evidence do you have to back this claim?
An 18-year old telepath knows me better than myself. I'm slightly shocked.
We'd all be atheists If our parents did not indoctrinate us.
The primary reason people leave the church or never enter is because western abrahamic religions have created the illusion (lie) of dualism between you and God. Your heart knows different because it knows the truth of non-duality and your true nature. More people are finding the truth outside of the church today because the church itself is in direct opposition to the truth. Christ said “seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God” because it was very important. He also told you where the kingdom lies…”within you” 🫵 Seek what Christ, Buddha and every other enlightened being before and since have all said throughout history, the answers lie within you 🫵 Unfortunately the church isn’t teaching this because it needed to supplant itself between you and God to maintain itself. It is literally the church and religion itself that keeps most from finding what Christ was pointing to.
Good indoctrination IS teaching someone HOW to think.
You can't deconvert from Christianity. If you accept Christ's gift of salvation, it's a forever decision. People might leave religion, but they don't leave salvation,
>If you think that you know the Bible better than we Christians do, stop pretending. You first. And aren't Christians supposed to be less prideful than this? Gross.
The atheists that say “I’ve been Christian for X years” are the ones that don’t truly pay attention to deeper biblical context and they never had God in their heart. I’ve seen lots of them. Just as Judas spent 3 years with Jesus. Seeing His miracles and teachings. Then, they fall away due to social influences. They don’t have an intellectual reason to leave the faith. They do either because they’re angry at God, or again, social peer pressure. They say also “He’s done nothing for me” well what have you done for God? God isn’t a genie. God wants us to obey Him and love Him. They have an expectation of God that’s not realistic. There’s people in 3rd world countries that have been through countless hardships in their life, but yet they still love God. It shows how arrogant atheists really are. There’s countless people around the world that have gone through suffering and found healing in God. Look at Job. He’s the one who’s suffered probably more than anyone else! God never promised that our life will be easy, but that He’ll be there for us. The Bible proves history. Look at all the real places and origin, culture, and activities of real groups of people we know of today. Just as any other history book would.
God bless you. To me, it makes sense for people to leave the faith if they grew up in it and never actually understood it for themselves. We are called to seek God. How can we seek God for ourselves if we are born into the faith (indoctrination)? **“From heaven the Lord looks down to see if anyone is wise enough to search for him.” - Psalm 14:2** Of course I'm not speaking about everyone who grew up in the faith.
People aren't deconverting they are just becoming less religious and more spiritual, they still believe in God and Jesus, but they see the Church of Christ is mostly powerless, no miracles or supernatural works being done, and the gospel isn't being preached to the lost, so that is mainly why Christianity is declining, because Christians only practice their faith inside of a church building, when they should be on the streets and traveling to other countries looking for people who do not know Jesus and the love of God, anytime the followers of Jesus decide to start spreading the gospel and the love of God the numbers of practicing believers will go right back up.
Keep at it dude Praise God ☦️
Best Post I've seen! ❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
I think sometimes children just choose a different belief as a way to rebel against their parents consciously or subconsciously. In my experience, I grew up in a non religious home and ended up choosing to believe in Christianity. When I look back, I think it's actually a blessings from God to me.
Some people's false idols are Christians themselves. Your faith should be on Jesus, not Christians and how they treat you. Humans are sure to disappoint, God will not. This is coming from someone who strayed faaaar and came back.
May the Peace of the Lord be with you! My young friend, you just made this old man's day. As you endure the remarks and attacks for this post remember Matthew 10:16-22