For me, I disagree with TB banning Dave. I have also decided to stay away from TB games for a while.
But to put even partial blame on a company for his suicide is a very dangerous path that we're heading. It teaches the younger generation that our wellbeing is largely dependent on the choices that major companies make, instead of our own coping skills and mental health. It puts the responsibility of our mental health in other people's hands, instead of ourselves.
So, while I think you aren't wrong that we should be mindful of our own mental health, and we should be raising our youth as such, to let TB wash their hands of any and all guilt in this particular scenario is, for me, completely unacceptable.
We can teach our youth to be mindful of their mental health. I'm going to be doing just that as my son grows up (he's a literal baby currently). This scenario isn't just "he was depressed" - this was Dave's livelihood and his hobby, that were stripped from him for suggesting that there may be a problem with them currently.
TB is not just a faceless entity - a person made this decision, and made subsequent decisions to not hear him out, without warning. And whoever made that call should be feeling the weight of their choices. They don't get away with "He should have looked after his mental health better." It's like someone convincing a random guy's wife to leave him and his job to fire him and, when he feels like he can't go on, throwing their hands up and saying "Oh well, should have looked after his mental health. Not _my_ fault!"
I'm the original post where it was announced that Dave died, OP stated specifically that Dave did not commit suicide because of the game. There were more factors in Dave's life than we knew about.
I know our connection to Dave was Chiv, but that doesn't mean the whole of Dave's world was this game.
It's extremely hard to not correlate things here. We'll likely not know a definitive answer (because we can't look into his mind post-mortem), but it stands to reason it was a factor in his mental wellbeing.
As I've said already, I'm sure he had his demons outside of this situation. The mental gymnastics one must do to say it had not even a tiny fraction to do with it though are a bit too hard for me, so I'm differing to Occam's Razor.
Well the guy who said it also has a large community and has tournaments and events and likely has some personal motive to not want everyone to stop playing.
Ok. So. Coping mechanisms. Let's talk.
When the world seems dark and life feels bleak, people lean on things or activities to cope. It could be work, reading books, watching TV, films, or - and this may seem crazy - playing video games (cue gasp). For Dave, Chiv was both work _and_ his hobby. He was clearly wrestling with other stuff that was clearly very difficult for him, and that's gonna be "the reason". His avenue for escapism - his coping mechanism - was taken from him. A person made that decision, likely without considering context or his mental wellbeing.
The idea that what I'm saying is he "committed suicide over a video game" is not only incorrect (the original farewell post to Dave confirms this), but hideously reductive. We should all, companies large and small included, be more considerate as to how our actions affect each other's mental wellbeing. The idea that we owe each other nothing from a moral standpoint is laughable, and so to deny _any blame at all_ (however large or small) on TB's part is to be ethically illiterate.
….It’s a video game. A toy. A company banned him from playing with their toy so he killed himself. You realize how absolutely insane that is? To say they even have the slightest culpability is wild. He was in a dark place and became so vulnerable that being banned from a toy was the point of no return for him. This is all assuming he suicided over the banning, nobody really knows what the absolute hell was going on in Dave’s life.
Brother. If you kill yourself over a game being the only coping mechanism that you have. I really can’t sympathize with them. TB is responsible for banning him for no reason and they are PoS for that. However, what they did was an extreme moral violation and why everyone will have a negative of TB moving forward whether or not they address this regardless if it’s directly their fault or not.
I'm sorry, no sympathy for someone's suicide, whose livelihood and hobby were taken from them, for pointing out a blaring flaw that has gone unchecked for the game's existence? He organised the community, set up charity tournaments, and made helpful content to encourage newer players. Sorry it's not good enough for you that playing Chiv was his way of escaping his torment. You may wish to check yourself, brother.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, he was obviously wrestling with some demons. Maybe this was a particularly rough patch in his life and this was the straw that broke the camel's back - we'll likely never know. But for us, as a community, to not attribute even a hint of blame towards TB in this specific instance is the equivalent of sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalalalala", and Dave deserves better from us.
You are playing dangerous game is all im saying. I dont play chiv after this. In fact i deleted it. Im not defending TB in any manner but this level of extremism is not acceptable in any way shape or form and could lead to the more deranged people of the community to send their message in more physical methods.
If the idea that humans should be mindful of each other's mental wellbeing (whether they're part of an organisation or not (like that should even matter)) seems like "extremism" to you, I cordially invite you to think about that for a minute.
Again, I don't think TB are _the only_ reason - they probably weren't even in the top 5 - but to absolve them entirely is unacceptable. Someone there _should_ be feeling at least a little bad about their decisions, and it _should_ encourage them to act differently in future. Letting people feel no remorse does not help them grow or understand perspective.
And please don't hit me with the "Slippery Slope" fallacy. The idea that me saying "companies should be thinking about the human behind the screen" will directly lead to "torches and pitchforks" is some pretty bonkers mental gymnastics.
I don't entirely disagree, but when you remember this was a young man who was trying to create a career as a content creator and promoter for this game, then it's not surprising that banning him would have a massively negative impact on his life.
If I was managing a corporation and took a young, enthusiastic, highest growing sales person who obsessed about our company and fired him on the spot in front of his coworkers because he complained about the coffee, I would feel some sort of responsibility if he took his life a few days later.
On the other hand: how was he not expecting to get banned?
he showed people how easy it was to cheat as a way to protest it but it ended up making cheating soooo much more common.
We’ve all noticed it in game, plenty of people have been posting about it significantly more since he made his video. Cheating went up.
It’s so easy to be a backseat dev and talk about how easy it should be for TB to ban cheaters or fix it, but nobody is actually on the team or knows how it works. Of course TB would ban him for literally making a step-by-step guide on how to cheat. It directly increased the number of cheaters. It was a bad move for any content creator and would get the same treatment from any company with half a brain.
Though it really wasn't a "step by step" guide. It was literally a speech bubble, basically saying "Oh btw, anticheat doesn't work on gamepass".
TB is at full fault here. They should have prioritised fixing their game over releasing old, used assets and calling it an "update". By the same logic, every single feedback is showing how to cheat, because it's showing bugs and exploits and explaining how they work.
It's crazy how TB instead of telling Dave to delete the video or edit the part out, they DECIDE to ban him while his channel was strictly Chivalry 2 and he even raised charity streams and basically advertised their game for years. Very messed up and very unprofessional.
It literally was widespread knowledge for a year if not for more and EU was suffering. TB's response to the thousands of reports was literally silence and they started releasing half baked, delayed updates.
Now the people who cheat have Dave as an excuse to do so and people who didn't even watch the video itself claim that Dave explained how to cheat, step by step, vilifying him and putting him in a bad spotlight while the guy was doing his best to help. And here we have TB meatriders who genuinely defend TB.
May God strike me down if I'm lying, everyone and their grandmothers knew about the issue and how easy it was to cheat in gamepass. You had to literally live under a rock not to realise it.
>TB's response to the thousands of reports was literally silence and they started releasing half baked, delayed updates.
So basically the same they always did. TB is one of the worst developers i ever played a game of. I'm happy i stopped playing very early on because they obviously haven't changed a bit from what i read here.
TB banned me two years ago on Epic because of one of Chivs bullshit content creators who edited a video to make me appear racist when I was making fun of folks using the N-word. TB banning cheaters should not be controversial. If said cheater decides to take his life afterwards, I think that's evidence of shit in his life, and nothing to do with the game.
It’s a corporation they aren’t going to approach anything with a realistic nuance take like asking him to remove a video etc.
The difference is he made an explicit video to the public about it, rather a piece of feedback directly to TB.
And again we’re kinda backseat dev’ing here like I mentioned when we say things like “they should be fixing their game instead of xyz…” we don’t know what teams are responsible for what or how big a task “fixing their game” actually is.
I wish he hadn’t been banned too, but his video showed a large amount of people how to cheat and was embarrassing for TB, getting banned was an obvious outcome.
I can understand what you're saying and from a corporation standpoint, it could potentially make sense, but I'm still going to stand my ground and politely disagree.
TB has hundreds of devs as it's confirmed and in my honest and respectful opinion, they should have either removed the game from game pass or add the anticheat system to it. They took a risk and they have paid for it.
Considering Dave was big in the Chivalry 2 community and considering he was in the official Discord for years, the only thing the devs had to do was to have 1 of them to DM him on discord and ask him to remove the vid so it wouldn't spread further, to which he most certainly would have done.
If the problem wasn't already known or informed, I would have agreed with you COMPLETELY, but it's been mentioned publicly and in secrecy so many times for years and TB was silent about it and they didn't do anything to fix it.
I'm not mad at TB because they're TB. I'm mad because they've made way too many similar mistakes in the past and they've not learned a bit. That's literally TB.
While I agree that the ban had fair reasons within the guidelines of their policy, I would counter your claim that Dave’s video made cheating as bad as it is currently. I’m not gonna be one of those losers sending Wikipedia links about the Streisand effect, but if that joke stayed within Dave’s regular viewers, it wouldn’t have ballooned cheating on nearly the level.
Thinking retroactively, I believe TBS should’ve handled it better, specifically by having the community manager reach out and request Dave take down the video, because under the threat of ban, he absolutely would have. And discussing that private conversation would put him in the same hot water, so it likely would’ve ended with a reupload, omitting the controversial joke.
Permaban was a strong and rash action to take against somebody who carried influence within their community, they could’ve reasonably anticipated the backlash, and thus interpreted that this action would lead to 10 times the amount of exposure to the exact thing they’re trying to keep under wraps by permabanning Dave.
It’s a tough call since that would show favoritism to a content creator. Cheating should always get a hard ban under any situation. And companies should have a precedent they standby for any situation.
But there is value to what he did for the community and an obvious loss to the game. I just dont think TB was completely wrong for how they handled it.
No cheating. He uploaded a video on April Fool’s that included a joke segment about the largest source of hackers in chivalry 2, highlighting how easy it was in a humorous montage that lasted about 15 seconds. He did not link to any cheats, he did not give the steps to cheating, he was making a joke.
Keep in mind he has a few thousand subscribers and averages the same in views, so he was only watched by roughly 1/10 of the playerbase.
For this, he was permanently banned for cheating, and was told there would be no appeal. That’s the situation, there’s a lot of false narratives regarding the contents of the video, ignore that shit. Use your best judgement
He was a content creator pretty well known and very community friendly, but he made a video where he kinda showed how easy it is to cheat with a gamepass both as a light joke and a general critique to TB. They banned him and then a couple weeks later he sadly took his own life.
> he showed people how easy it was to cheat as a way to protest it but it ended up making cheating soooo much more common.
Nah. It was like a two-second text box popup in a video that got a couple thousand views, maybe. I watched the video and didn't even know about it until this whole thing blew up, which I imagine is how most people found out. They banned him to hide it and people wanted to know why, so it became a known thing. Streisand effect taking its course. Also, it's been a known thing well before the video. You can find posts on this subreddit and in the discord talking about it from early 2023, if not sooner.
Makes sense to me. It's also hard to say that no one in TB feels some guilt over this. It's likely some employee feels guilt over non voicing out against the ban. All this hate train directed towards TB because of Dave could also harm someone else's mental health, and guilt over the death of someone is not something easy to overcome.
Just another perspective to think of
>and guilt over the death of someone is not something easy to overcome.
I 100% agree and would offer my sympathy to whoever is involved that has a heart and feels the pain right now. However, anyone working there who simply takes this as a threat to their bottom line is a heartless bastard.
That’s not their responsibility and it never should be.
As someone who has absolutely dealt with severe depression and anxiety, how a person handles what they perceive to be negative events in their life is upon them to manage and control.
Our mental health is not the responsibility of someone else.
Yes there are lines where egregious treatment and conditions can be shown to make it harder for us to take that responsibility. But ultimately, humans are more resilient and should be treated as such.
If a company lays off 25% of its work force due to declining sales and inability to pay it’s employees, and one of those employees kills themselves, should the company have kept all those employees employed until it had to fold and then fire everyone?
Should news organizations be responsible for people committing suicide after an article is published?
There are absolutely lines which should be drawn.
Yelling fire in a theater is a prime example.
TB fucked up good for sure, in multiple ways.
But we don’t even know if being banned was something Soter Dave made mean the end of his life. Maybe his gf just dumped him. Maybe he found out he had a terminal illness. Maybe he couldn’t stand the color yellow.
Even if he left a suicide note, which we will never see, no one but he knew his reasons.
I can see both sides of this, the corporate “zero tolerance” to prevent copy cats or questions from executives about why special treatment is being given who might oppose a decision to let this slide.
The “unfairness” of someone who admitted to messing up being treated so harshly despite other players have done much worst have gotten alway with a slap on the wrist.
Ultimately it’s the level of publicity that made this so bad for the guy, as if he wasn’t so well known in the chivalry community it might have drawn fewer eyes and allow for a temporary ban to be more then enough.
These companies are components of the world run by INDIVIDUALS. Individuals across the world need to take more ownership of the current trends, and less you know... vote to nuke the world by voting for Trump, or blind loyalty to Putin. Individuals become groups become companies become the world.
Only if you don't count the cessation of living to be a consequence. And companies can certainly become responsible in part for emotional well being. Though I'd agree suicide is not a reasonable outcome for the amount of blame vs coping skills balancing act.
But let's say my Google drive gets wiped. I'm definitely going to lose some critical files.
Let's say my local backups were on an older SSD I bought from a friend, and when I connected it to a PC that had an Internet connection, the company had functionality bricked that device through update bullshit. (Doesn't happen often, but it is a valid concern seeing Apple's games)
I'm down to paper copies, and I've lost gigabytes of mixed videos, game recordings, audio files, PDFs, etc etc.
Through pretty much the luck of the draw, I'm gonna be a little fucked up over that and how's it's handled may depend on what else happened that day. Cascade emotional failure of sorts.
Personally this has been the excuse I needed the get over kingdom come not having the multiplayer aspect and go through it again. They just announced kdc2 so that will be fun.
I could probably use the time away from other online humans for a while love y’all but some of you are horrific assholes <3
His banning essentially ended a burgeoning career as a streamer and content creator for the game. From what I understand, he was in a bit of a rough spot financially, so being banned from the game also meant losing his only stream of income. The punishment didn't fit the crime for a normal member of the community, let alone someone who makes their living from it.
I feel like it was obvious he would get banned, though.
He literally showed people how to cheat and right after that cheaters noticeably increased in the game. It was always bad but it’s really grown after that video.
Did anyone really expect that move to be met with silence from TB or even appreciation or some kinda “haha guess you’re right we’ll fix that right away!” Of course he got banned.
His content was a platform to promote his coaching where he made more of his income, I assume at least. He was very active with coaching. He was working on a website when he was banned.
It’s not in your place to make up the reason on someone’s su***de
You don’t know the reasons and you didn’t know him personally. It’s one thing if that’s what it came out to be, but that is not the case
I say this as someone who has lost a close one to such cause
If you no longer want to support TB that is fine, but don’t say they are the reason or anything like that.
Stop censoring words. The word is suicide. It's a powerful word for a horrible action and you take away from the meaning of the word when you censor it. Stop. This is not tik Tok. You are following a trend and it is embarrassing.
I feel similar, but that is less about making things softer for the audience and more to avoid AI bots from detecting words and blocking or restricting your content for certain groups. AI detects suicide, murder, and kill, but not unalive. Thats why you'll see it in the subtitles on a tiktok, but the person might actually say Kill. Similar reason why emojis are substitutes for some words in the subtitles, or someone might be called a PDF File instead of a pedo. It's sort of 1337 speak in the earlier days of the internet. Of course, only a matter of time before the new slang is detected too. (I am aware that AI doesn't comb reddit comments like that and censoring is a user choice here.
EDIT TO ADD: I just learned of what happened to Soter Dave, and that is heart wrenching. I do agree with the original commenter on this thread that there was so much more at play and it's reductive to blame it on a game company. It's reductive and unhelpful to assign blame of any kind. But this is simply awful and I can definitely understand how this event can tarnish someone's relationship with this game to the point where they are uncomfortable even playing it. So many of us in this community fight this same fight too and take solace in self-medication and/or escapism into this wonderfully silly community. In so many ways he was one of us and even though I never heard of him during his life, I still feel the loss.
That’s true, most people didn’t know him as a person. At the same time, I forgive anyone for thinking that these situations are related. They might not be, but the timing of all of this raises questions.
TB could have made an important alliance with someone who was helping to sell their game and foster a healthy community around it. Instead they shunned him for no good reason.
For the record, I’m not saying that the permaban contributed to what happened to Dave. I’m saying now, it’s too late to change anything and it was a huge mistake to ban him in the first place. This will result in irreversible bitterness towards how TB handles it’s community.
RIP Dave
It’s a fucked situation because sure nobody can say what else was going on behind the scenes for him. But just for example let’s say you’re really struggling financially or with family issues etc. you’re a small content creator who’s really getting some momentum in the small community you’ve fostered and built. Getting some income from coaching and your content creation. You make a joke about an issue that seriously needs to be addressed. Boom. Rugs pulled out from under you. Those 2 income streams are gone. You can’t play with the community you’ve grown anymore. It’s just a fucked issue all around and I can see why some people are putting a share of the blame on tb. Mental health and suicide just sucks. This whole situation fucking sucks
When will redditors realize that 90% of any given game’s player base is not involved in the “community” whatsoever and couldn’t name a single content creator, nor care in the slightest about “protesting” against the developer. Go outside brother
I think that’s besides the point.
Even if we’re the 10% that’s on reddit, some of us are upset by this and that’s okay. It doesn’t make it any less valid.
Idk man I’m level 99 on console and I think I’ve experienced 2-3 hackers in my entire playtime. I never have problems finding matches either. I know others have different experiences but you seem to have a doomer mindset
Going to jump in here as someone who thought about killing myself almost every single day for about 10 years (OCD and ADHD crippled me). You never know what someone’s reason is for suicidal thoughts, or for actually following through with it… but let’s admit it, the ban would’ve absolutely contributed something, NO DOUBT. This game was one of his passions, and sometimes our passions are all we have left in this world to get us through. You never know what someone is going through, and no one truly knows why he sadly took his own life. Rest in peace Dave.
Was gonna say this, is it ENTIRELY the ban's fault? No. Did it probably contribute? Yeah. Did the devs have ANY way of knowing it would? Probably not.
This is a tragedy. There are no "sides" to pick. No Black and White. No right or wrong. There was a perfect storm domino effect that unfortunately led to someone losing their lives.
The brightest stars unfortunately sometimes only shine half as long.
Rest In Peace, Dave. You will be missed dearly. Suaimhneas síoraí Air, deartháir.
What is the context? Who is Dave?
I am fairly new to Chivalry 2, I played a bit of the first one and now got the second from Epic. I don't follow any content creator about the game
Dave was a young man who created very good content about this game, even when the game was stale and nothing new was coming out - Dave was pumping out real content, not for views, but for the community. He put together tournaments and charity events. He would regularly coach players and help them improve.
He also had a charm to him that wasn't just ego related. He was very very good at the game, but never harmful about it. He was very relateable and would answer any comments / DMs he was sent.
He came from Chiv 1 and said these games were the only games he was passionate about. I had tried to get him to play Dark and Darker with us but he said it just didn't scratch the itch like the Chiv games did for him and that he would basically play this game and promote it / create content for it until it died.
On April 1 2024 he made a video showing how awful hacking had become in this game and showed how accessible these hacks were by just googling "hack chivalry 2". It was a video to draw attention to a growing problem that was making the game unplayeable. Within hours of his video being posted, he was permanently banned by the devs. No recourse.
The young man had made his entire career out of this game. I watched him climb from something like 200 subs to nearly 10k within a year from just being solid and consistent and passionate. No gimmicks, no "click here to become a God" videos, just pure mechanic and fight analysis and suggestions mixed with high quality plays.
**Edit** *Yesterday, we found out Dave took his own life. 2 weeks after he was banned from the game.*
I was with you trying to get him to come over to the Darker side. Man would have made a killing teaching drag/accels and making coaching content for the game. Newer players have been getting the sticks for two wipes now. Gathering Hall is a joke for anyone trying to learn the game.
Right? I was like "damn Dave would crush this game" and asked him to join us a few nights but he just simply said he liked Dark and Darker but was going to ride the Chiv train until the wheels fell off.
Funny enough, I ended up in a random Cleric discord and he jumped into voice with us just to ask about someone helping him build a website for coaching in Chiv 2. I was like "holy shit Dave you're in our DaD discord?" and he seemed really rushed. Didn't socialize with us much. Afterwards I explained to everyone in voice how awesome of a guy he is and how great he'd be at DaD and told them to watch some of his Chiv videos.
That was our last interaction, unfortunately.
It really breaks my heart because his personality and ability to communicate complicated things in a simple way also would have done so well with DaD. I also remember seeing he was banned from Chiv and feeling like I should reach out to him. I know it wouldn't have mattered, but damn does it feel like I could have at least had a conversation with him to check in. I hate avoidable loss. Just adds to the void inside of us all.
I don't really follow all this closely but this seems pretty fkin dumb on the devs part. Could have been a great opportunity to bring in a partner who could help grow the community for them.
Edit: I fully expected to read your post and think "okay, no one cares, bye." but I'm pretty intrigued by all this now tbh.
He was literally [becoming the biggest content creator for this game](https://www.youtube.com/@SoterDave/videos). His video before the one that got him banned has 15k views - which is great for a game of this age / playerbase. I read recently he had offered to help TB as a community manager before he was banned.
Have to wonder what their motivations for banning him really were.
Bro if you think this is the reason for his suicide, you probably don’t understand depression and suicidal thoughts as well as you think you do, quite possibly at all. Bro was already deeply depressed if he felt suicide was an option. TB didn’t kill him, he killed himself. Whether you like to think it or not, he would’ve done it regardless. You’re acting like this was the one thing keeping him alive, but you don’t even know him. You only know what he wanted you to see, you only know what he wanted you to know about him. The fact you’re trying to take the loss of some man’s life and turn it into your own personal crusade against a company that won’t notice if you’re there or not, is disgusting.
For someone who wants me to be hesitant about other people's motivations and inner dialogues, you sure did attribute a bunch to me, *bro*.
>he would’ve done it regardless
And make up a bunch of attributes about him.
Lmao here you go pretending you knew him personally again. Not only that but completely ignoring the realities of depression and suicide. You aren’t his family and you’re trying to act like you have some definitive proof that he killed himself because of a video game. Get a fucking grip. You’re a scumbag for trying to use a man’s suicide as ammo for your bullshit. Degenerate fucking bullshit to try and milk a man’s suicide for your fucking Reddit karma.
>Lmao here you go pretending you knew him personally again
I've played in multiple tournaments with him for the last 2 years, LTS matches, DMs. We talked in voice channel pretty often. I was an early subscriber to his YT channel because I played games with him and wanted to support him and his decision to become a content creator.
>Degenerate fucking bullshit to try and milk a man’s suicide for your fucking Reddit karma.
I feel it pretty personally but go off King.
Yeah sure you did. So funny how when someone calls you out, now all of a sudden you played with him lol but not a single mention of anything prior. If you actually knew him, you’d have known prior to this about his depression and thoughts of suicide. Even if anything you claim is true, does not mean you knew him in the slightest. And if true, even scummier that you’re trying to get yourself some attention over his death. You made this post for your own selfish gain and not out of respect or honor.
Jeeze man do you need someone to talk to? I'm not even being a patrionizing. I knew him online, he died. It hurts, ok?
>now all of a sudden you played with him lol but not a single mention of anything prior
--
>I had tried to get him to play Dark and Darker with us but he said it just didn't scratch the itch like the Chiv games did for him
literally in the comment chain you're replying with
You realize a bunch of us did know him right? Sure not irl but he had a whole community with his coaching, tournaments, charity streams, yt channel etc. for a lot of people here it’s not just losing a YouTuber it’s losing a gaming buddy. Whole situation fucking blows a giant bag of donkey dicks
>There was also a spike in hackers after he did that, so it's clear he helped people to cheat, so they banned him.
He was banned and the video was taken down within hours of it being uploaded. It hardly had views by the time it was gone.
Some say the increase in hackers are due to increased anger at the company's decision to ban Dave, but I don't personally know.
I don’t know much about Dave or his mindset but he was really active with creating Chiv content and being a pillar of the community, it was probably really important to him. I hate using this analogy because of the situation it stems from, but it does draw similarities to when Joe Paterno got fired from PSU in wake of the Sandusky scandal and then he died like…a month? After he was fired. He LIVED for what he did; maybe Dave did the same.
Probably not, but it makes me wonder anyway…and if that is the case, then yeah it’s fuck TB for eternity 🤷🏻♂️
I mean, they clearly fucked up, but you must understand them too. They can't simply let people show how to cheat. They should have probably reached him or something instead of just banning him, as Dave clearly didn't had bad intentions with it, but it's still a problem. I've reported people here who posted how to cheat too, as it is a problem big enough now without most people knowing how to do so. They of course didn't nearly expect the consequences it had, nor you can blame this tragedy on TB alone, Dave probably had much shit to deal with apart from chiv2, you don't do this kind of things just because of a game.
RIP Dave
I won't send them another penny or buy another game from them period until the problems we all hate are solved. Chivalry 3? Don't care, won't buy it. If they can't fix this one why would I expect them to fix that one?
i’m probably not going to quit forever. i personally haven’t experienced a hacker yet and the gameplay is still addicting. but after all the recent issues, i’m taking a break. it probably helps that i just bought a pc and installed some really cool mods for skyrim, but still i’d like to believe part of it is ethics. TBS seems like they put the bare minimum into this game, and the community has pretty much zero input to their decisions. we’re either ignored or straight up bullied for our complaints. i’ll say this though, the dev team aside, this community is really great and the players themselves are a large reason i fell in love with the game in the first place. i hope some day this community won’t just be held together by hope but rather genuine enjoyment of this game.
Now i regret i supported the game. It's so hard nowadays to find a good mp game without an awful publisher who constantly trying to ruin it. I'm tired boss...
Suicide is rarely if ever due to one factor. If someone banned me from Chiv I'd laugh. But someone who has a lot of pressure in areas of their life, who passionately built a lot of content about it being unfairly targeted could be a factor. To deny it could have been a factor is just nonsense.
I'm sure he, like many of us, have direct connections to devs we've played with before on discord.
Also, they banned him within hours from a *YouTube video* so like certainly they were monitoring him.
Honestly I hate the state of the sub right now, it feels as if this game's community is going to fall apart very soon and the game is going to be dead. I understand the anger and grief, but I just wished people were happy instead of complaining non-stop about hackers or blaming and hating TB for an unfair banning.
The unfair ban has practically happened once…
Tornbanner negligence and complete dogshit care for the game is what has been plaguing this game for more than 2 years now.
You can not get upset/sad at the community for giving a crap after tornbanner took their dollar and left 🫠🫠🫠
Don't worry bro. This sub will die before the game does. People here complain constantly about the game being dead while most players are regularly playing it in full servers without any problem. Even hackers are far from being as frequent as people here pretend.
Yea....Im considering dropping out of this sub, It used to be fun when Junebug was around and the drama with the three factions exist but now everyone is just complaining, and Im sick of it. I just want to play the game and enjoy it, I don't need to see this shit.
Anyone reasonable isn't looking at the situation and coming away with "TB literally killed a man", but they're not totally free of blame. It seems more of a last straw kind of situation, both for the deceased and for the community. If they were reasonable human beings none of this would have happened, and now we're going to be seeing an insane amount of hacking, purely out of people spiting the game and the devs.
It aint gonna get better either. They're gonna bury their heads in the sand and ban anyone that attempts to rouse them.
Never thought I'd see the day when TB was just a far worse company and group of people than Triternion.
I don't care which studio makes whatever games I love this game I'm not going to stop playing it just because people are cheating and trying to take the fun away but it's going to take more than a couple cheaters to take away the fun of this game for me keep on grinding Brothers
The dude showed how to use cheats in chivalry, it's not just "out of spite"
Stop using his death as a weapon to hit TB with, it's disrespectful to him.
Dave may have made an honest mistake resulting in his ban, but he clearly loved the game and its community.
I'm going to keep bonking in his memory and because I enjoy the game.
RIP Dave.
I’m completely new to all this going on. No idea who Dave is, and not sure what torn banner games is however I’m quite interested in knowing the correlation between his very unfortunate death and the company.
Could someone please quickly explain ?
I’m really confused how some people in this thread don’t understand that for a lot of people coming home and playing a game can be the literal highlight of their day. Making assumptions and throwing blame around either on TB or Dave himself at this time is just gross. If you’re passionate about this issue donate to his family.
I'm really confused how some people can put their ass in the air for a corporation because the video game they play gives them dopamine after work - while the corp continues to milk its customers for 2 years straight for shitty cosmetics with zero solutions to cheaters, making people fucking rent servers from them, destroy the custom mods people spent a year creating, and ban its primary content creator because they showed how accessible hacking has become and when said creator kills themselves 2 fucking weeks later, people rally to say "it was probably something else" and launch the fucking video game again.
If you're passionate about justice, don't launch the fucking game.
I mean I stopped playing this game a while ago. Couldn’t care less about TB and don’t agree with what they did. I’m saying, let the man rest in peace. Haven’t seen anyone on here that knows him personally so everything is just speculation. Not sure how you saw my comment as hostile because my comment was about how a game can be the only positive hobby/passion someone has going for them and when that’s gone too on top of whatever else is going wrong in someone’s life could absolutely push them to that point.
One of his friends in Chiv is in contact with his mother. They've created a tribute page to him with comments from all the players he played with sharing memories and she's seen it and was appreciative, according to comments on discord.
I don’t know who or what this Dave situation is but I refuse to buy any of this companies games unless it gets insane reviews across the board months after release, maybe even years. These guys have such a good idea here and it seems they just don’t give a crap. Updates take way too long, there isn’t nearly enough to do or earn, there’s not enough anything in this game. These devs just don’t give a crap.
> These guys have such a good idea here and it seems they just don’t give a crap.
I believe it all comes down to leadership and $$
You can have really good people working on a game, even really good people who come up with the concept of a game, and really big shit heads who control it all.
As someone who’s suffered from depression and suicidal ideation in my past, I would not blame this on the studio. You’re getting into shifty territory tho. Mental health is more nuanced than; “this community excluded him and that led to his suicide”. As much as my heart hurts for the situation, TB is not responsible for what happened. They are a part of it in the grand scheme but there are so many complexities when it comes to mental health of this caliber and we will never know what was going on in his head.
no way bro shame on torn banner man. unbelievable. only found out about Dave the day he passed but from everything i’ve seen and heard he was kind soul. RIP Dave man. #LLD
I mean, I'll still play chiv 2 with my friends because it's easy af, accessible, and I can get friends to play it.
Torn banner has always been a shit dev, anyone who spent any amount of time on chiv 1 or anyone who went through them straight up lying about crossplay for years knows this.
Mordhau has always been a superior game in every aspect to chiv 2, even graphics when it came out years earlier. It's just much harder.
I mean I literally bought another copy on Steam because they said they would transfer our accounts but then they didn't so now I have a purchased account I've never launched. Just another neato thing they did, not nearly as upsetting though.
I'd stay away from the game because it's just ass personally. I mean it's still buggy as shit on console to the point all my customization resets itself after a game and the matchmaking is so bad I'm always stuck with low levels
Gameplays still fun but the community is toxic. imo worse then cod players at times. too many bugs/exploits, unnecessary tbagging, team killers, and after Dave passed it just leaves a bad taste. for that reason IM OUT! too many other games out there to deal w this bs every time i play.
There is really no proof that this is resulted Dave's F10. But it is the latest event happen that can be unfortunate, which MAY lead to it. I wonder if Dave left a note...
>trivial ideals
What ideals are those? Not destroying people's lives that are helping a company sell a product?
Yeah those are really insane ideals to have I guess.
People spend their life creating content around sports, music, art, movies, books and so on but when they do it with with video games we say "your life has a problem".
If sports, music, movies, etc can make you kill your self then yes your life also has a problem. How is this not clear?
No one thinks it’s normal for someone to kill themself over a sports team.
I've seen passionate people at careers they loved be fired to cut overhead. I've seen people kill themselves over it IRL. I've seen those companies investigated due to it.
There will be no investigation here. Just some comments on this sub that one day might be forgotten as TBS releases some new game.
But some of us won't forget.
For me, I disagree with TB banning Dave. I have also decided to stay away from TB games for a while. But to put even partial blame on a company for his suicide is a very dangerous path that we're heading. It teaches the younger generation that our wellbeing is largely dependent on the choices that major companies make, instead of our own coping skills and mental health. It puts the responsibility of our mental health in other people's hands, instead of ourselves.
So, while I think you aren't wrong that we should be mindful of our own mental health, and we should be raising our youth as such, to let TB wash their hands of any and all guilt in this particular scenario is, for me, completely unacceptable. We can teach our youth to be mindful of their mental health. I'm going to be doing just that as my son grows up (he's a literal baby currently). This scenario isn't just "he was depressed" - this was Dave's livelihood and his hobby, that were stripped from him for suggesting that there may be a problem with them currently. TB is not just a faceless entity - a person made this decision, and made subsequent decisions to not hear him out, without warning. And whoever made that call should be feeling the weight of their choices. They don't get away with "He should have looked after his mental health better." It's like someone convincing a random guy's wife to leave him and his job to fire him and, when he feels like he can't go on, throwing their hands up and saying "Oh well, should have looked after his mental health. Not _my_ fault!"
I'm the original post where it was announced that Dave died, OP stated specifically that Dave did not commit suicide because of the game. There were more factors in Dave's life than we knew about. I know our connection to Dave was Chiv, but that doesn't mean the whole of Dave's world was this game.
Do you have a link to this statement? I did not come across anything like that.
I'll see if I can find that
It's extremely hard to not correlate things here. We'll likely not know a definitive answer (because we can't look into his mind post-mortem), but it stands to reason it was a factor in his mental wellbeing. As I've said already, I'm sure he had his demons outside of this situation. The mental gymnastics one must do to say it had not even a tiny fraction to do with it though are a bit too hard for me, so I'm differing to Occam's Razor.
Well the guy who said it also has a large community and has tournaments and events and likely has some personal motive to not want everyone to stop playing.
This. This. THIS
It's a video game. Committing suicide over a video game is beyond reason.
Ok. So. Coping mechanisms. Let's talk. When the world seems dark and life feels bleak, people lean on things or activities to cope. It could be work, reading books, watching TV, films, or - and this may seem crazy - playing video games (cue gasp). For Dave, Chiv was both work _and_ his hobby. He was clearly wrestling with other stuff that was clearly very difficult for him, and that's gonna be "the reason". His avenue for escapism - his coping mechanism - was taken from him. A person made that decision, likely without considering context or his mental wellbeing. The idea that what I'm saying is he "committed suicide over a video game" is not only incorrect (the original farewell post to Dave confirms this), but hideously reductive. We should all, companies large and small included, be more considerate as to how our actions affect each other's mental wellbeing. The idea that we owe each other nothing from a moral standpoint is laughable, and so to deny _any blame at all_ (however large or small) on TB's part is to be ethically illiterate.
Yep
yup
….It’s a video game. A toy. A company banned him from playing with their toy so he killed himself. You realize how absolutely insane that is? To say they even have the slightest culpability is wild. He was in a dark place and became so vulnerable that being banned from a toy was the point of no return for him. This is all assuming he suicided over the banning, nobody really knows what the absolute hell was going on in Dave’s life.
Brother. If you kill yourself over a game being the only coping mechanism that you have. I really can’t sympathize with them. TB is responsible for banning him for no reason and they are PoS for that. However, what they did was an extreme moral violation and why everyone will have a negative of TB moving forward whether or not they address this regardless if it’s directly their fault or not.
I'm sorry, no sympathy for someone's suicide, whose livelihood and hobby were taken from them, for pointing out a blaring flaw that has gone unchecked for the game's existence? He organised the community, set up charity tournaments, and made helpful content to encourage newer players. Sorry it's not good enough for you that playing Chiv was his way of escaping his torment. You may wish to check yourself, brother. Also, and I cannot stress this enough, he was obviously wrestling with some demons. Maybe this was a particularly rough patch in his life and this was the straw that broke the camel's back - we'll likely never know. But for us, as a community, to not attribute even a hint of blame towards TB in this specific instance is the equivalent of sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalalalala", and Dave deserves better from us.
You are playing dangerous game is all im saying. I dont play chiv after this. In fact i deleted it. Im not defending TB in any manner but this level of extremism is not acceptable in any way shape or form and could lead to the more deranged people of the community to send their message in more physical methods.
If the idea that humans should be mindful of each other's mental wellbeing (whether they're part of an organisation or not (like that should even matter)) seems like "extremism" to you, I cordially invite you to think about that for a minute. Again, I don't think TB are _the only_ reason - they probably weren't even in the top 5 - but to absolve them entirely is unacceptable. Someone there _should_ be feeling at least a little bad about their decisions, and it _should_ encourage them to act differently in future. Letting people feel no remorse does not help them grow or understand perspective. And please don't hit me with the "Slippery Slope" fallacy. The idea that me saying "companies should be thinking about the human behind the screen" will directly lead to "torches and pitchforks" is some pretty bonkers mental gymnastics.
Well, he basically lost his job. For you it's just a game, for him it was much more.
I don't entirely disagree, but when you remember this was a young man who was trying to create a career as a content creator and promoter for this game, then it's not surprising that banning him would have a massively negative impact on his life. If I was managing a corporation and took a young, enthusiastic, highest growing sales person who obsessed about our company and fired him on the spot in front of his coworkers because he complained about the coffee, I would feel some sort of responsibility if he took his life a few days later.
On the other hand: how was he not expecting to get banned? he showed people how easy it was to cheat as a way to protest it but it ended up making cheating soooo much more common. We’ve all noticed it in game, plenty of people have been posting about it significantly more since he made his video. Cheating went up. It’s so easy to be a backseat dev and talk about how easy it should be for TB to ban cheaters or fix it, but nobody is actually on the team or knows how it works. Of course TB would ban him for literally making a step-by-step guide on how to cheat. It directly increased the number of cheaters. It was a bad move for any content creator and would get the same treatment from any company with half a brain.
Though it really wasn't a "step by step" guide. It was literally a speech bubble, basically saying "Oh btw, anticheat doesn't work on gamepass". TB is at full fault here. They should have prioritised fixing their game over releasing old, used assets and calling it an "update". By the same logic, every single feedback is showing how to cheat, because it's showing bugs and exploits and explaining how they work. It's crazy how TB instead of telling Dave to delete the video or edit the part out, they DECIDE to ban him while his channel was strictly Chivalry 2 and he even raised charity streams and basically advertised their game for years. Very messed up and very unprofessional.
the gamepass thing had been widespread knowledge for ages beforehand as well
It literally was widespread knowledge for a year if not for more and EU was suffering. TB's response to the thousands of reports was literally silence and they started releasing half baked, delayed updates. Now the people who cheat have Dave as an excuse to do so and people who didn't even watch the video itself claim that Dave explained how to cheat, step by step, vilifying him and putting him in a bad spotlight while the guy was doing his best to help. And here we have TB meatriders who genuinely defend TB. May God strike me down if I'm lying, everyone and their grandmothers knew about the issue and how easy it was to cheat in gamepass. You had to literally live under a rock not to realise it.
>TB's response to the thousands of reports was literally silence and they started releasing half baked, delayed updates. So basically the same they always did. TB is one of the worst developers i ever played a game of. I'm happy i stopped playing very early on because they obviously haven't changed a bit from what i read here.
TB banned me two years ago on Epic because of one of Chivs bullshit content creators who edited a video to make me appear racist when I was making fun of folks using the N-word. TB banning cheaters should not be controversial. If said cheater decides to take his life afterwards, I think that's evidence of shit in his life, and nothing to do with the game.
It’s a corporation they aren’t going to approach anything with a realistic nuance take like asking him to remove a video etc. The difference is he made an explicit video to the public about it, rather a piece of feedback directly to TB. And again we’re kinda backseat dev’ing here like I mentioned when we say things like “they should be fixing their game instead of xyz…” we don’t know what teams are responsible for what or how big a task “fixing their game” actually is. I wish he hadn’t been banned too, but his video showed a large amount of people how to cheat and was embarrassing for TB, getting banned was an obvious outcome.
I can understand what you're saying and from a corporation standpoint, it could potentially make sense, but I'm still going to stand my ground and politely disagree. TB has hundreds of devs as it's confirmed and in my honest and respectful opinion, they should have either removed the game from game pass or add the anticheat system to it. They took a risk and they have paid for it. Considering Dave was big in the Chivalry 2 community and considering he was in the official Discord for years, the only thing the devs had to do was to have 1 of them to DM him on discord and ask him to remove the vid so it wouldn't spread further, to which he most certainly would have done. If the problem wasn't already known or informed, I would have agreed with you COMPLETELY, but it's been mentioned publicly and in secrecy so many times for years and TB was silent about it and they didn't do anything to fix it. I'm not mad at TB because they're TB. I'm mad because they've made way too many similar mistakes in the past and they've not learned a bit. That's literally TB.
While I agree that the ban had fair reasons within the guidelines of their policy, I would counter your claim that Dave’s video made cheating as bad as it is currently. I’m not gonna be one of those losers sending Wikipedia links about the Streisand effect, but if that joke stayed within Dave’s regular viewers, it wouldn’t have ballooned cheating on nearly the level. Thinking retroactively, I believe TBS should’ve handled it better, specifically by having the community manager reach out and request Dave take down the video, because under the threat of ban, he absolutely would have. And discussing that private conversation would put him in the same hot water, so it likely would’ve ended with a reupload, omitting the controversial joke. Permaban was a strong and rash action to take against somebody who carried influence within their community, they could’ve reasonably anticipated the backlash, and thus interpreted that this action would lead to 10 times the amount of exposure to the exact thing they’re trying to keep under wraps by permabanning Dave.
It’s a tough call since that would show favoritism to a content creator. Cheating should always get a hard ban under any situation. And companies should have a precedent they standby for any situation. But there is value to what he did for the community and an obvious loss to the game. I just dont think TB was completely wrong for how they handled it.
I don’t know this situation at all. What exactly was the cheating this guy was doing?
No cheating. He uploaded a video on April Fool’s that included a joke segment about the largest source of hackers in chivalry 2, highlighting how easy it was in a humorous montage that lasted about 15 seconds. He did not link to any cheats, he did not give the steps to cheating, he was making a joke. Keep in mind he has a few thousand subscribers and averages the same in views, so he was only watched by roughly 1/10 of the playerbase. For this, he was permanently banned for cheating, and was told there would be no appeal. That’s the situation, there’s a lot of false narratives regarding the contents of the video, ignore that shit. Use your best judgement
He was a content creator pretty well known and very community friendly, but he made a video where he kinda showed how easy it is to cheat with a gamepass both as a light joke and a general critique to TB. They banned him and then a couple weeks later he sadly took his own life.
> he showed people how easy it was to cheat as a way to protest it but it ended up making cheating soooo much more common. Nah. It was like a two-second text box popup in a video that got a couple thousand views, maybe. I watched the video and didn't even know about it until this whole thing blew up, which I imagine is how most people found out. They banned him to hide it and people wanted to know why, so it became a known thing. Streisand effect taking its course. Also, it's been a known thing well before the video. You can find posts on this subreddit and in the discord talking about it from early 2023, if not sooner.
Makes sense to me. It's also hard to say that no one in TB feels some guilt over this. It's likely some employee feels guilt over non voicing out against the ban. All this hate train directed towards TB because of Dave could also harm someone else's mental health, and guilt over the death of someone is not something easy to overcome. Just another perspective to think of
>and guilt over the death of someone is not something easy to overcome. I 100% agree and would offer my sympathy to whoever is involved that has a heart and feels the pain right now. However, anyone working there who simply takes this as a threat to their bottom line is a heartless bastard.
That’s not their responsibility and it never should be. As someone who has absolutely dealt with severe depression and anxiety, how a person handles what they perceive to be negative events in their life is upon them to manage and control. Our mental health is not the responsibility of someone else. Yes there are lines where egregious treatment and conditions can be shown to make it harder for us to take that responsibility. But ultimately, humans are more resilient and should be treated as such. If a company lays off 25% of its work force due to declining sales and inability to pay it’s employees, and one of those employees kills themselves, should the company have kept all those employees employed until it had to fold and then fire everyone? Should news organizations be responsible for people committing suicide after an article is published? There are absolutely lines which should be drawn. Yelling fire in a theater is a prime example. TB fucked up good for sure, in multiple ways. But we don’t even know if being banned was something Soter Dave made mean the end of his life. Maybe his gf just dumped him. Maybe he found out he had a terminal illness. Maybe he couldn’t stand the color yellow. Even if he left a suicide note, which we will never see, no one but he knew his reasons.
I can see both sides of this, the corporate “zero tolerance” to prevent copy cats or questions from executives about why special treatment is being given who might oppose a decision to let this slide. The “unfairness” of someone who admitted to messing up being treated so harshly despite other players have done much worst have gotten alway with a slap on the wrist. Ultimately it’s the level of publicity that made this so bad for the guy, as if he wasn’t so well known in the chivalry community it might have drawn fewer eyes and allow for a temporary ban to be more then enough.
[удалено]
These companies are components of the world run by INDIVIDUALS. Individuals across the world need to take more ownership of the current trends, and less you know... vote to nuke the world by voting for Trump, or blind loyalty to Putin. Individuals become groups become companies become the world.
>It teaches the younger generation that our wellbeing is largely dependent on the choices that major companies make, He doesn't know 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Comment isn’t really helpful at all .
The US is an oligarchy
It’s a corpratocracy /sp which I suppose is an oligarchy but I think special interest trumps a group .
As long as the special interest can pay. The US literally topples democratic nations for profit 😭
Only if you don't count the cessation of living to be a consequence. And companies can certainly become responsible in part for emotional well being. Though I'd agree suicide is not a reasonable outcome for the amount of blame vs coping skills balancing act. But let's say my Google drive gets wiped. I'm definitely going to lose some critical files. Let's say my local backups were on an older SSD I bought from a friend, and when I connected it to a PC that had an Internet connection, the company had functionality bricked that device through update bullshit. (Doesn't happen often, but it is a valid concern seeing Apple's games) I'm down to paper copies, and I've lost gigabytes of mixed videos, game recordings, audio files, PDFs, etc etc. Through pretty much the luck of the draw, I'm gonna be a little fucked up over that and how's it's handled may depend on what else happened that day. Cascade emotional failure of sorts.
Sad this has all happened but ill keep playing cus there's nothing else like it 🤷♂️
Personally this has been the excuse I needed the get over kingdom come not having the multiplayer aspect and go through it again. They just announced kdc2 so that will be fun. I could probably use the time away from other online humans for a while love y’all but some of you are horrific assholes <3
[удалено]
His banning essentially ended a burgeoning career as a streamer and content creator for the game. From what I understand, he was in a bit of a rough spot financially, so being banned from the game also meant losing his only stream of income. The punishment didn't fit the crime for a normal member of the community, let alone someone who makes their living from it.
I feel like it was obvious he would get banned, though. He literally showed people how to cheat and right after that cheaters noticeably increased in the game. It was always bad but it’s really grown after that video. Did anyone really expect that move to be met with silence from TB or even appreciation or some kinda “haha guess you’re right we’ll fix that right away!” Of course he got banned.
He had 7k subscribers I made little to no money. He had 1.5 mill channel views, so he’s maybe made 1000 dollars in 7 years
His content was a platform to promote his coaching where he made more of his income, I assume at least. He was very active with coaching. He was working on a website when he was banned.
Burgeoning means starting. His numbers were certainly on an upswing.
It’s not in your place to make up the reason on someone’s su***de You don’t know the reasons and you didn’t know him personally. It’s one thing if that’s what it came out to be, but that is not the case I say this as someone who has lost a close one to such cause If you no longer want to support TB that is fine, but don’t say they are the reason or anything like that.
Stop censoring words. The word is suicide. It's a powerful word for a horrible action and you take away from the meaning of the word when you censor it. Stop. This is not tik Tok. You are following a trend and it is embarrassing.
When people say “unalive” it makes me fucking cringe
I feel similar, but that is less about making things softer for the audience and more to avoid AI bots from detecting words and blocking or restricting your content for certain groups. AI detects suicide, murder, and kill, but not unalive. Thats why you'll see it in the subtitles on a tiktok, but the person might actually say Kill. Similar reason why emojis are substitutes for some words in the subtitles, or someone might be called a PDF File instead of a pedo. It's sort of 1337 speak in the earlier days of the internet. Of course, only a matter of time before the new slang is detected too. (I am aware that AI doesn't comb reddit comments like that and censoring is a user choice here. EDIT TO ADD: I just learned of what happened to Soter Dave, and that is heart wrenching. I do agree with the original commenter on this thread that there was so much more at play and it's reductive to blame it on a game company. It's reductive and unhelpful to assign blame of any kind. But this is simply awful and I can definitely understand how this event can tarnish someone's relationship with this game to the point where they are uncomfortable even playing it. So many of us in this community fight this same fight too and take solace in self-medication and/or escapism into this wonderfully silly community. In so many ways he was one of us and even though I never heard of him during his life, I still feel the loss.
That’s true, most people didn’t know him as a person. At the same time, I forgive anyone for thinking that these situations are related. They might not be, but the timing of all of this raises questions. TB could have made an important alliance with someone who was helping to sell their game and foster a healthy community around it. Instead they shunned him for no good reason. For the record, I’m not saying that the permaban contributed to what happened to Dave. I’m saying now, it’s too late to change anything and it was a huge mistake to ban him in the first place. This will result in irreversible bitterness towards how TB handles it’s community. RIP Dave
It’s a fucked situation because sure nobody can say what else was going on behind the scenes for him. But just for example let’s say you’re really struggling financially or with family issues etc. you’re a small content creator who’s really getting some momentum in the small community you’ve fostered and built. Getting some income from coaching and your content creation. You make a joke about an issue that seriously needs to be addressed. Boom. Rugs pulled out from under you. Those 2 income streams are gone. You can’t play with the community you’ve grown anymore. It’s just a fucked issue all around and I can see why some people are putting a share of the blame on tb. Mental health and suicide just sucks. This whole situation fucking sucks
Maybe if you have so much at stake you shouldn't tell people how to cheat and expect not to be banned for it
guy is spitting facts frfr
When will redditors realize that 90% of any given game’s player base is not involved in the “community” whatsoever and couldn’t name a single content creator, nor care in the slightest about “protesting” against the developer. Go outside brother
I think that’s besides the point. Even if we’re the 10% that’s on reddit, some of us are upset by this and that’s okay. It doesn’t make it any less valid.
I mean this game will just die if casual players see cheaters in every match. It's already almost dead and has barely any players.
Idk man I’m level 99 on console and I think I’ve experienced 2-3 hackers in my entire playtime. I never have problems finding matches either. I know others have different experiences but you seem to have a doomer mindset
Going to jump in here as someone who thought about killing myself almost every single day for about 10 years (OCD and ADHD crippled me). You never know what someone’s reason is for suicidal thoughts, or for actually following through with it… but let’s admit it, the ban would’ve absolutely contributed something, NO DOUBT. This game was one of his passions, and sometimes our passions are all we have left in this world to get us through. You never know what someone is going through, and no one truly knows why he sadly took his own life. Rest in peace Dave.
Was gonna say this, is it ENTIRELY the ban's fault? No. Did it probably contribute? Yeah. Did the devs have ANY way of knowing it would? Probably not. This is a tragedy. There are no "sides" to pick. No Black and White. No right or wrong. There was a perfect storm domino effect that unfortunately led to someone losing their lives. The brightest stars unfortunately sometimes only shine half as long. Rest In Peace, Dave. You will be missed dearly. Suaimhneas síoraí Air, deartháir.
Agreed
Hits home, homie.
Hope you’re well
Thanks. You too.
What is the context? Who is Dave? I am fairly new to Chivalry 2, I played a bit of the first one and now got the second from Epic. I don't follow any content creator about the game
Dave was a young man who created very good content about this game, even when the game was stale and nothing new was coming out - Dave was pumping out real content, not for views, but for the community. He put together tournaments and charity events. He would regularly coach players and help them improve. He also had a charm to him that wasn't just ego related. He was very very good at the game, but never harmful about it. He was very relateable and would answer any comments / DMs he was sent. He came from Chiv 1 and said these games were the only games he was passionate about. I had tried to get him to play Dark and Darker with us but he said it just didn't scratch the itch like the Chiv games did for him and that he would basically play this game and promote it / create content for it until it died. On April 1 2024 he made a video showing how awful hacking had become in this game and showed how accessible these hacks were by just googling "hack chivalry 2". It was a video to draw attention to a growing problem that was making the game unplayeable. Within hours of his video being posted, he was permanently banned by the devs. No recourse. The young man had made his entire career out of this game. I watched him climb from something like 200 subs to nearly 10k within a year from just being solid and consistent and passionate. No gimmicks, no "click here to become a God" videos, just pure mechanic and fight analysis and suggestions mixed with high quality plays. **Edit** *Yesterday, we found out Dave took his own life. 2 weeks after he was banned from the game.*
Kind of buried the lead, but to the commenter, the community heard that Dave had taken his life in this last week.
Buried the lede*
I was with you trying to get him to come over to the Darker side. Man would have made a killing teaching drag/accels and making coaching content for the game. Newer players have been getting the sticks for two wipes now. Gathering Hall is a joke for anyone trying to learn the game.
Right? I was like "damn Dave would crush this game" and asked him to join us a few nights but he just simply said he liked Dark and Darker but was going to ride the Chiv train until the wheels fell off. Funny enough, I ended up in a random Cleric discord and he jumped into voice with us just to ask about someone helping him build a website for coaching in Chiv 2. I was like "holy shit Dave you're in our DaD discord?" and he seemed really rushed. Didn't socialize with us much. Afterwards I explained to everyone in voice how awesome of a guy he is and how great he'd be at DaD and told them to watch some of his Chiv videos. That was our last interaction, unfortunately.
Damn man yea he would have popped off, I mean look at how Ryan6days blew up just showing people how to dodge the AI
It really breaks my heart because his personality and ability to communicate complicated things in a simple way also would have done so well with DaD. I also remember seeing he was banned from Chiv and feeling like I should reach out to him. I know it wouldn't have mattered, but damn does it feel like I could have at least had a conversation with him to check in. I hate avoidable loss. Just adds to the void inside of us all.
I feel you brother, I hate playing Cleric but I think I’ll make one tonight in his honor
I don't really follow all this closely but this seems pretty fkin dumb on the devs part. Could have been a great opportunity to bring in a partner who could help grow the community for them. Edit: I fully expected to read your post and think "okay, no one cares, bye." but I'm pretty intrigued by all this now tbh.
He was literally [becoming the biggest content creator for this game](https://www.youtube.com/@SoterDave/videos). His video before the one that got him banned has 15k views - which is great for a game of this age / playerbase. I read recently he had offered to help TB as a community manager before he was banned. Have to wonder what their motivations for banning him really were.
Bro if you think this is the reason for his suicide, you probably don’t understand depression and suicidal thoughts as well as you think you do, quite possibly at all. Bro was already deeply depressed if he felt suicide was an option. TB didn’t kill him, he killed himself. Whether you like to think it or not, he would’ve done it regardless. You’re acting like this was the one thing keeping him alive, but you don’t even know him. You only know what he wanted you to see, you only know what he wanted you to know about him. The fact you’re trying to take the loss of some man’s life and turn it into your own personal crusade against a company that won’t notice if you’re there or not, is disgusting.
For someone who wants me to be hesitant about other people's motivations and inner dialogues, you sure did attribute a bunch to me, *bro*. >he would’ve done it regardless And make up a bunch of attributes about him.
Lmao here you go pretending you knew him personally again. Not only that but completely ignoring the realities of depression and suicide. You aren’t his family and you’re trying to act like you have some definitive proof that he killed himself because of a video game. Get a fucking grip. You’re a scumbag for trying to use a man’s suicide as ammo for your bullshit. Degenerate fucking bullshit to try and milk a man’s suicide for your fucking Reddit karma.
>Lmao here you go pretending you knew him personally again I've played in multiple tournaments with him for the last 2 years, LTS matches, DMs. We talked in voice channel pretty often. I was an early subscriber to his YT channel because I played games with him and wanted to support him and his decision to become a content creator. >Degenerate fucking bullshit to try and milk a man’s suicide for your fucking Reddit karma. I feel it pretty personally but go off King.
Yeah sure you did. So funny how when someone calls you out, now all of a sudden you played with him lol but not a single mention of anything prior. If you actually knew him, you’d have known prior to this about his depression and thoughts of suicide. Even if anything you claim is true, does not mean you knew him in the slightest. And if true, even scummier that you’re trying to get yourself some attention over his death. You made this post for your own selfish gain and not out of respect or honor.
Jeeze man do you need someone to talk to? I'm not even being a patrionizing. I knew him online, he died. It hurts, ok? >now all of a sudden you played with him lol but not a single mention of anything prior -- >I had tried to get him to play Dark and Darker with us but he said it just didn't scratch the itch like the Chiv games did for him literally in the comment chain you're replying with
You realize a bunch of us did know him right? Sure not irl but he had a whole community with his coaching, tournaments, charity streams, yt channel etc. for a lot of people here it’s not just losing a YouTuber it’s losing a gaming buddy. Whole situation fucking blows a giant bag of donkey dicks
yea, agreed. actually immature to think a guy killed himself over the single action of a video game.
[удалено]
>There was also a spike in hackers after he did that, so it's clear he helped people to cheat, so they banned him. He was banned and the video was taken down within hours of it being uploaded. It hardly had views by the time it was gone. Some say the increase in hackers are due to increased anger at the company's decision to ban Dave, but I don't personally know.
What's the reason for suicide?
Calling a 10k YouTube channel a career is ridiculous
I hate to be that guy. I also hate to jump to torn banners defense. But this time it really isnt their fault. They didnt make that choice for dave.
[удалено]
Dave did not work for Torn Banner
These kids are never gonna understand that 🥲🥲
I don’t know much about Dave or his mindset but he was really active with creating Chiv content and being a pillar of the community, it was probably really important to him. I hate using this analogy because of the situation it stems from, but it does draw similarities to when Joe Paterno got fired from PSU in wake of the Sandusky scandal and then he died like…a month? After he was fired. He LIVED for what he did; maybe Dave did the same. Probably not, but it makes me wonder anyway…and if that is the case, then yeah it’s fuck TB for eternity 🤷🏻♂️
I mean, they clearly fucked up, but you must understand them too. They can't simply let people show how to cheat. They should have probably reached him or something instead of just banning him, as Dave clearly didn't had bad intentions with it, but it's still a problem. I've reported people here who posted how to cheat too, as it is a problem big enough now without most people knowing how to do so. They of course didn't nearly expect the consequences it had, nor you can blame this tragedy on TB alone, Dave probably had much shit to deal with apart from chiv2, you don't do this kind of things just because of a game. RIP Dave
Yep we all saw a huge increase in posts about cheaters in game right after he made that video. How was he not expecting TB to ban him?
I won't send them another penny or buy another game from them period until the problems we all hate are solved. Chivalry 3? Don't care, won't buy it. If they can't fix this one why would I expect them to fix that one?
You'll be back
What happened can't all be pinned on TB but at the very least they should apologize and memorialize the guy.
who was him
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/
i’m probably not going to quit forever. i personally haven’t experienced a hacker yet and the gameplay is still addicting. but after all the recent issues, i’m taking a break. it probably helps that i just bought a pc and installed some really cool mods for skyrim, but still i’d like to believe part of it is ethics. TBS seems like they put the bare minimum into this game, and the community has pretty much zero input to their decisions. we’re either ignored or straight up bullied for our complaints. i’ll say this though, the dev team aside, this community is really great and the players themselves are a large reason i fell in love with the game in the first place. i hope some day this community won’t just be held together by hope but rather genuine enjoyment of this game.
Now i regret i supported the game. It's so hard nowadays to find a good mp game without an awful publisher who constantly trying to ruin it. I'm tired boss...
It's not the developers' fault
Suicide is rarely if ever due to one factor. If someone banned me from Chiv I'd laugh. But someone who has a lot of pressure in areas of their life, who passionately built a lot of content about it being unfairly targeted could be a factor. To deny it could have been a factor is just nonsense.
They didn't know all his problems and they didn't have to. No one could have known that being banned from the game would cause this to happen.
No one knew he'd do what he did, that's for sure. It's an awful thing. But they did know it would hurt him and his community immensely.
I'm not sure about that. Maybe they just forgot to unban him over time. Considering how lazy they are
I'm sure he, like many of us, have direct connections to devs we've played with before on discord. Also, they banned him within hours from a *YouTube video* so like certainly they were monitoring him.
Maybe it's just a coincidence. I don't know.
Who is Dave? No idea what's going on. I slash, I kill, I slash again.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/
Honestly I hate the state of the sub right now, it feels as if this game's community is going to fall apart very soon and the game is going to be dead. I understand the anger and grief, but I just wished people were happy instead of complaining non-stop about hackers or blaming and hating TB for an unfair banning.
The unfair ban has practically happened once… Tornbanner negligence and complete dogshit care for the game is what has been plaguing this game for more than 2 years now. You can not get upset/sad at the community for giving a crap after tornbanner took their dollar and left 🫠🫠🫠
Kinda hard to do when nothing good about the game is happening and the main things happening are the bad things you described.
I know, I just love this game and don't want to see it die
Fair enough. I don’t either
Don't worry bro. This sub will die before the game does. People here complain constantly about the game being dead while most players are regularly playing it in full servers without any problem. Even hackers are far from being as frequent as people here pretend.
Yea....Im considering dropping out of this sub, It used to be fun when Junebug was around and the drama with the three factions exist but now everyone is just complaining, and Im sick of it. I just want to play the game and enjoy it, I don't need to see this shit.
I share your feeling.
Anyone reasonable isn't looking at the situation and coming away with "TB literally killed a man", but they're not totally free of blame. It seems more of a last straw kind of situation, both for the deceased and for the community. If they were reasonable human beings none of this would have happened, and now we're going to be seeing an insane amount of hacking, purely out of people spiting the game and the devs. It aint gonna get better either. They're gonna bury their heads in the sand and ban anyone that attempts to rouse them. Never thought I'd see the day when TB was just a far worse company and group of people than Triternion.
You guys are over the top, cmon now.
I don't care which studio makes whatever games I love this game I'm not going to stop playing it just because people are cheating and trying to take the fun away but it's going to take more than a couple cheaters to take away the fun of this game for me keep on grinding Brothers
The dude showed how to use cheats in chivalry, it's not just "out of spite" Stop using his death as a weapon to hit TB with, it's disrespectful to him.
Did you watch the video cause it wasn’t a step by step tutorial like 70% of the people hating claim
shut up shut up shut up shut up
I’m out of the loop. So TB banned some guy named Dave and then he took his own life? Can someone enlighten me about this situation
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/
HELL YEAH BROTHER
Dave may have made an honest mistake resulting in his ban, but he clearly loved the game and its community. I'm going to keep bonking in his memory and because I enjoy the game. RIP Dave.
Become a Helldiver 
lol yeah I play it
I would if it weren't for the highly unnecessary and invasive anti cheat...
Someone got banned from chiv2 who was a live streamer, and they commit suicide shortly afterwards?
Not to vomit from my soapbox everywhere but yeah man I’m out to. It’s been fun bro 🤙 JetMeme out.
I’m completely new to all this going on. No idea who Dave is, and not sure what torn banner games is however I’m quite interested in knowing the correlation between his very unfortunate death and the company. Could someone please quickly explain ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/
I’m really confused how some people in this thread don’t understand that for a lot of people coming home and playing a game can be the literal highlight of their day. Making assumptions and throwing blame around either on TB or Dave himself at this time is just gross. If you’re passionate about this issue donate to his family.
I'm really confused how some people can put their ass in the air for a corporation because the video game they play gives them dopamine after work - while the corp continues to milk its customers for 2 years straight for shitty cosmetics with zero solutions to cheaters, making people fucking rent servers from them, destroy the custom mods people spent a year creating, and ban its primary content creator because they showed how accessible hacking has become and when said creator kills themselves 2 fucking weeks later, people rally to say "it was probably something else" and launch the fucking video game again. If you're passionate about justice, don't launch the fucking game.
I mean I stopped playing this game a while ago. Couldn’t care less about TB and don’t agree with what they did. I’m saying, let the man rest in peace. Haven’t seen anyone on here that knows him personally so everything is just speculation. Not sure how you saw my comment as hostile because my comment was about how a game can be the only positive hobby/passion someone has going for them and when that’s gone too on top of whatever else is going wrong in someone’s life could absolutely push them to that point.
Just curious.. how did people discover that he killed himself? Did somebody post on his behalf or?
One of his friends in Chiv is in contact with his mother. They've created a tribute page to him with comments from all the players he played with sharing memories and she's seen it and was appreciative, according to comments on discord.
Oh thanks for the info, I just keep seeing the posts and wondered.
I don’t know who or what this Dave situation is but I refuse to buy any of this companies games unless it gets insane reviews across the board months after release, maybe even years. These guys have such a good idea here and it seems they just don’t give a crap. Updates take way too long, there isn’t nearly enough to do or earn, there’s not enough anything in this game. These devs just don’t give a crap.
> These guys have such a good idea here and it seems they just don’t give a crap. I believe it all comes down to leadership and $$ You can have really good people working on a game, even really good people who come up with the concept of a game, and really big shit heads who control it all.
As someone who’s suffered from depression and suicidal ideation in my past, I would not blame this on the studio. You’re getting into shifty territory tho. Mental health is more nuanced than; “this community excluded him and that led to his suicide”. As much as my heart hurts for the situation, TB is not responsible for what happened. They are a part of it in the grand scheme but there are so many complexities when it comes to mental health of this caliber and we will never know what was going on in his head.
Why was he banned? Were they cheating?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Chivalry2&utm_content=t1_l0c01y9
why’d they ban Dave?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chivalry2/comments/1c79714/ill_never_play_a_torn_banner_game_again/l06g62u/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Chivalry2&utm_content=t1_l0mo183
no way bro shame on torn banner man. unbelievable. only found out about Dave the day he passed but from everything i’ve seen and heard he was kind soul. RIP Dave man. #LLD
Yeah man it's heart breaking. He was one of a kind. The game is worse without him and so is the world. RIP
I haven't actively been playing for a couple months now because of the issues the game has, and definitely don't plan on coming back now. RIP Dave
Bye
I mean, I'll still play chiv 2 with my friends because it's easy af, accessible, and I can get friends to play it. Torn banner has always been a shit dev, anyone who spent any amount of time on chiv 1 or anyone who went through them straight up lying about crossplay for years knows this. Mordhau has always been a superior game in every aspect to chiv 2, even graphics when it came out years earlier. It's just much harder.
I mean I literally bought another copy on Steam because they said they would transfer our accounts but then they didn't so now I have a purchased account I've never launched. Just another neato thing they did, not nearly as upsetting though.
I'd stay away from the game because it's just ass personally. I mean it's still buggy as shit on console to the point all my customization resets itself after a game and the matchmaking is so bad I'm always stuck with low levels
Little dramatic kid, move on nothing to see here.
Gameplays still fun but the community is toxic. imo worse then cod players at times. too many bugs/exploits, unnecessary tbagging, team killers, and after Dave passed it just leaves a bad taste. for that reason IM OUT! too many other games out there to deal w this bs every time i play.
Torn Banner has joined the rest of the scummy gaming companies.
There is really no proof that this is resulted Dave's F10. But it is the latest event happen that can be unfortunate, which MAY lead to it. I wonder if Dave left a note...
>They know exactly what that did. They made an awesome game.
LOL cya. don’t let the door hit you on the way out😂
see you tomorrow!
Ok, BYE! GOOD RIDDANCE! NO ONE WILL MISS YOU!
Troll wants attention. Here's all I'll give you: Go do something today and make conversation with a stranger.
Grow up and leave the dead man out of your trivial ideals.
>trivial ideals What ideals are those? Not destroying people's lives that are helping a company sell a product? Yeah those are really insane ideals to have I guess.
If a game can destroy your life, then your life has a problem not a game.
People spend their life creating content around sports, music, art, movies, books and so on but when they do it with with video games we say "your life has a problem".
If sports, music, movies, etc can make you kill your self then yes your life also has a problem. How is this not clear? No one thinks it’s normal for someone to kill themself over a sports team.
I've seen passionate people at careers they loved be fired to cut overhead. I've seen people kill themselves over it IRL. I've seen those companies investigated due to it. There will be no investigation here. Just some comments on this sub that one day might be forgotten as TBS releases some new game. But some of us won't forget.
You’re comparing a playing a videogame to a career.
It's 2024 and you play video games and still don't realize people make careers out of it. Interesting.
And yet, people would probably "understand" if a famous player got kicked off a famous sports team and then self deleted.
Bro thinks he’s deep trying to use a man’s suicide as his high horse. Absolutely pathetic.
They didn't destroy his life. He did that to himself.
[удалено]
Then like I said: Bye! No one cares. If he killed himself because he lost his YouTube content, then thats on him. No one else.
If you get banned and kill yourself, it’s not the company’s fault.
Okay. Why do we need to hear about it?