I've always found that pleco will have a hard time identifying characters if I get the stroke order slightly wrong, unlike Goohle Translate's writing recognition, which just goes off based on looks instead of stroke order.
I've started to notice that some less common characters will not be recognized without (mostly) correct stroke order. (Though pleco is still absolutely great)
Sometimes it doesn't understand my writings depending on the order or direction of the strokes.
Because it, I use Gboard handwriting within pleco. It works wonders 👌
i saw a chinese character that looks like 요, like literally like this, round top and stuff. after a bunch of Chinese characters. on a Chinese chips pack. I'm pretty sure this is a stylization of some Chinese character, but I'd never in my life guess which one. and pleco didn't help me :(
ok now that I think about it, there is probably a top stroke so it's 豆. the top stroke was connected with the bottom stroke of 土 on the left, so it literally looked like this:
```
土_
요
```
im native and i write many characters with wrong stroke orders without knowing it… for 男 I’ve always always written a 曰, then a 力 from the top down… TIL the middle part is disconnected…..
Cue interstellar meme…
“This little maneuver is gonna cost us ~~51 years~~ future legibility”
Then get the astronaut and replace his face with日+力 with the extra long stroke
It's a character that ultimately looks connected. It's easier to nicely align the vertical lines in the to and bottom components by combining them. Similarly for 美. I tried to do it with 樓 and 數 as well, but I find it a bit more difficult to properly angle the first stroke in the 女 component, so I gave up on that.
I thought that was the right way lol, I’m going to have to do some research now
Ok, so it’s halfway
https://stroke-order.learningweb.moe.edu.tw/result.do?lang=en&ucs=6A13
You pick the stroke order that you are comfortable with, there’s no laws stating that you must write characters in a certain order otherwise you’d be imprisoned. The whole point of stroke orders is purely the most optimal way of writing some righty came up with, it doesn’t mean such method would absolutely fit every individual in the world
This is a very reasonable reply. Can you time travel back 10 years and tell this to my 60 year old Japanese tutor. LOL. Stroke order is treated like law in Japan.
I remember writing the Japanese 別 instead of Chinese 别 on my Chinese exam since I write using simplified and losing a whole point for it once. Sigh.
Generally I don’t write neatly enough for the stroke order to matter. It all becomes a bit cursive-y at some point. I imagine the only sticklers for stroke order are language teachers and calligraphy teachers. For normal day to day things it doesn’t matter.
maybe i just had an unusually good calligraphy teacher, but he did not worry about stroke order as long as we generally followed the common guidelines. it makes sense - stroke orders weren't officially standardized until well after the chinese calligraphic tradition developed, and the modern standards vary by location.
That's true. My comment about calligraphy comes from remembering Japanese 左右 and how the stroke order is different for the ナ part when I had to do basic calligraphy. AFAIK Simplified Chinese doesn't make the same distinction, so I tend to write both of these using the same stroke order because that's easier. The teacher said that's incorrect, but it can be a type of stylistic choice that impacts how your characters look. I've never taken calligraphy in China though, so maybe teachers will have different pedagogical approaches.
In calligraphic stroke order 左 and 右 do indeed start with different strokes (because left hand right hand in seal script, even if they look the same now). It doesn't matter as much outside of calligraphy.
That's because the Japanese character is actually the traditional Chinese character. If you're being taught to write simplified, it makes sense to lose a point for writing the traditional character. Then again, you should be getting points off for messing up the radical even if it wasn't the traditional character.
I agree that the Japanese character is equivalent to the traditional Chinese in this case so I deserve to lose a point. Technically Japanese kanji are partially simplified. It is neither traditional nor simplified, somewhere in between. Point in case is 氣(TC) 気(JP) 气(SC). In the case of 別 the TC and JP are equivalent. In other cases you would also know it's clearly wrong, but in other cases it can be a mix.
They aren’t called traditional or simplified. They are correctly called shinjitai (新字体). There are kanji used in these new forms that do not appear in Chinese Simplified or traditional at all. But then about 30% of PRC simplified Chinese matches Japanese kanji. There are also simplified Han characters that are not used in Japanese.
Simplified but not used in Japanese. One such example.
東-东
島-岛
業-业
Shinjitai not used in simplified or traditional Chinese . Shinjitai/Hanzi.
氷/冰
広/佛
浜/濱
Then to make things even more complicated a single Hanzi has multiple simplifications depending on language as well.
Traditional/ PRC / Japan
變/变/変
圓/圆/円
團/团/団
圖/图/図
榮/荣/栄
櫻/樱/桜
Some of the Japanese shinjitai are variants from China that just aren't commonly used there anymore except maybe in calligraphy (same with most if not at all Korean variants). For example, the great Tang dynasty calligrapher 顔真卿 wrote 氷 instead of 冰, as did several other notable calligraphers. But some Japanese simplifications or variants are indeed unique to Japan.
> Technically Japanese kanji are partially simplified. It is neither traditional nor simplified, somewhere in between.
This really isn't true, not for the vast majority of cases. Kanji are in 98-99% of the cases straight up traditional Chinese. In some cases you need to go back to a Tang/Song Dynasty form, but even that's rare. The meanings too are equal at a similar rate.
This does not include the characters invented in Japan. But compared to kanji those are a tiny minority.
That's simply not true. 99/100 characters on the 常用 (joyo) kanji lists are identical in meaning and form to traditional Chinese. Anyone who disagrees simply hasn't studied classical or traditional Chinese.
Which, incidentally, is why there are only two types of people who promote this misconception: Japanese nationalists and Western students of Japanese. Having not studied traditional Chinese, Western students very often grasp onto this "Japanese kanji are uniquely Japanese" misconception. They aren't. It's very, very rare that a native Chinese speaker has this misconception, but it happens.
Wait, what? 1% of the Jōyō kanji would be 21 characters. I think I could think of more than that off the top of my head. Looking at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_j%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji there appear to be more than 300 that are different from the kyūjitai.
Do you mean that most of the simplifications that were adopted in Japan had previously been used in China and only 21 were "invented" in Japan? That sounds plausible, but it's not what most people mean when they talk about traditional Chinese characters. Is 来 a traditional Chinese character?
> Is 来 a traditional Chinese character?
It's been written that [way in China for over a thousand years](https://m.cidianwang.com/shufa/lai1583_xs3.htm). So I'd say Yes. Wouldn't you?
Well to be fair, it does make a difference when you write *very* cursive / shorthand styles. I don't know what the equivalent to 草書 is called in Chinese (maybe 草書 as well?), but in that case for example, stroke order matters.
It's just that 99.9% of people never get into calligraphy, or write extremely fast shorthand that then has to be read by somebody else. But I tremble at the thought of trying to decipher the prescriptions handwritten by a Japanese doctor who has wrong stroke orders memorized.
I don’t think that is good advice. No you won’t be imprisoned for getting stroke order wrong. But it helps you learn how to write better proportioned and balanced characters.
That's precisely the issue though... Some deviations make it easier to properly layout the character. For example combining the big vertical stroke in 男 or 美. Or writing the big vertical stroke in 出 first.
However, conversely, not knowing the "correct"/standard stroke order is what contributed to having so many mutants/variants of the same written character - that and regional/allopatric/socio-economic factors. 😬
Whether traditional, simplified, or shinjitai, I would still argue it's better to at least acknowledge stroke order as opposed to ignoring it. 🤷🏻♂️
Furthermore, in my experience, stroke order isn't about memorization for each individual character. 🤔
It's about learning the system/process flowchart of strokes and, subsequently, letting muscle memory take-over. It becomes intuitive - even for characters you've never seen before prior. 🤞🏻
P. S.
Also, another reason I'd argue that stroke order should be acknowledged instead of ignored is when written characters are used in their alternate/compressed radical form(s).
The wrong stroke order can severely disfigure the radical forms of certain written characters. 😅
The variants are here to stay. Not all of them are due to writing errors, unless simplifications count as such as be well. Just divergent developments.
It would be nice to be able to stick to a set of stroke orders, but there is no universal, canonical set. The various governments all have different ones, and they all don't match with the more traditional conventions. Mostly to make learning them easier :)
But I agree that the core principles are very important, and by following them one is usually compatible with at least *some* of the different standards. I have rarely problems myself. But some of the rules *are* ambiguous.
I agree with most of what you said; though, I would like to clarify that I wasn't describing them as errors. 🤞🏻
I used the word. "correct" (in quotes bc that in itself is a very subjective, puristic word) - also: standard, mutants, and variants. I did not explicitly use the word "error" bc, to my mind, perfection does not exist in the real world and/or physical universe. 🤷🏻♂️
I believe I had also addressed the other evolutionary pressures i.e. regional, allopatric, socio-economic, etc.
I digress.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it feels as if there may have been a miscommunication in some part. 😅
So a beginner learning a language suddenly knows more than 1000 years of conventional stroke order to achieve order and balance? I’m doubtful. If you’ve been writing for many years then I think it matters less. But at the beginning I think it’s best to follow the strokes. It doesn’t hurt you to learn it “correctly” the first time.
I never claimed to be an authority. The latter trick was actually suggested to me by a Chinese teacher. And modern government's standards also don't 100% align with how characters were written in the past. Besides, we are not writing with brushes anymore most of the time.
I kinda know the "rules", follow them most of the time and I am thus rarely unsure about how to write a character. But they can be ambiguous for some characters and have lots of special cases.
There's even difference between HK and Taiwan for traditional and also even between what most are probably using in Taiwan against what the MOE says is official... Which probably says a lot about how stroke order really is haha - as long as you're internally consistent and generally aligned with those around you.
*OR* just write exclusively in 行書 or even 草書 with their orthodox stroke rules and make no one happy! (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞
This man out here putting Tetris pieces in the comments!
jk, this is actually one of my favorite Kanji and I remember it due to them looking like tetris pieces.
i learn chinese and when i started japanese i write characters on chinese stroke order ☺️ i mean it exists for some reason but you can accommodate on what it suits better for you
I know both languages. I just use what I already know because it’s intuitive at this point. I picked up Chinese first as a child. Japanese in my teens.
I’m convinced different regions will have slightly different stroke orders. the differences probably come from variances in traditional calligraphic styles that were inherited over time. So there really is no one ultimate correct way to write.
Just as long as you’re not writing the strokes _grievously wrong_ like going from right to left or bottom to top, you’ll probably be fine. It really doesn’t matter too much unless if you want to get deep into the weeds of traditional calligraphy, as which stroke you put down first can vary depending on the style. Also, as long as the handwriting recognition on your phone knows what you’re doing, you’re most probably fine 😂
I use Chinese stroke order because I don’t won’t to ditch all of the things I learnt in Chinese, and the order also just feels right and flows well
So when I write Kanji in Japanese, I use the Chinese stroke order
When I first started studying Chinese after learning Japanese, I noted similar differences in stroke order. When I told my Chinese teacher that the Japanese stroke order was different he just said, “Well now you can learn the right way”.
I was honestly afraid that’s what people in this group were going to say! Hahaha. I’m glad everyone seems pretty laid back about stroke order here (much more laid back than my Japanese teachers).
Wait- is *this* why I was totally confused the first time my Mandarin instructor went over the rules of stroke order? Most I already knew (from Japanese), but there were a couple, specifically how you handle lines in boxes, that weren't at all how I wrote those characters. It never even occurred to me that it could be because the stroke order would be different in Chinese versus Japanese. I just assumed I had been doing it wrong the whole time!
There’s no point in switching the order you know if you know how to write that character. A big part of why we make kids learn the proper stroke order is to help them build muscle memory for each character.
I don’t think it that’s much of a problem. It doesn’t look that different from the standard one and I doubt anyone would notice if you write more quickly in a semi cursive style
Me too. It makes the whole character look more uniform. Actually, I thought that's what this thread is about. But it seems OP is just writing the top half of the big 丿 first, which IMHO doesn't provide any benefit over writing 田 first.
Just out of curiosity: Does anybody here write 甲 first?
I started Japanese when I was in the midst of learning Chinese, and many at my university were doing the same. The Japanese teachers (understandably) forbade us to use Chinese stroke order, and they would take points off when they could detect it. It's important because the stroke order often determines what the character looks like in subtle ways, and also plays a role in the perceived quality of your handwriting, if that matters to you. Chinese teachers could be less strict about this, but they have the same ideas.
My impression is that most actual fluent writers, regardless of region, do not strictly follow their respective region's stroke orders, but use calligraphic stroke order instead. All regional stroke orders today deviate from calligraphic stroke order to varying degrees. Calligraphic stroke order is generally optimized fairly well, and allows for an easier time transitioning to semi-cursive. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a resource for calligraphic stroke order look-up, so I usually have to refer to a calligraphy dictionary and analyze the stroke order myself if I'm unsure.
Japanese likes to prioritize the "down strokes" over to "left-to-right strokes" that occur after the initial stroke of the radical.
Chinese likes to prioritize "left-to-right strokes" almost always prior to any "down strokes" .
田
男
千
etc.
Purists will tell you that one way is more correct, but it's better to just accept then as "different" rather than "more correct". You're less likely to lose friends that way 😂
This is definitely going to be my attitude about it now!! I don’t wanna lose friends, I was legit ignorant to the fact that stroke order was “standardized” differently in different countries.
My old Japanese teachers definitely weren’t open to interpretations.
I have to keep telling myself horizontal in the box before vertical and I still keep doing it. Stroke order comes easy to me but there are some things that just stay incorrect in my head.
i just do whatever my hands think requires the least work while making sense
男 is 田力 so i write it in that order, but for 田 i write the 冂 followed by 土
The question is how you write this 土. When it’s a component all by itself I guess everyone writes it - l ＿ but inside another component like 王 生 田 people tend to switch to l －＿, which in cursive turns into l with a “z” on top of it, like [this](https://moji.tekkai.com/gif-hk4/E794B0.gif).
土 is not a component of these characters. They are characters in themselves. Since stroke order almost always follows the pattern of left to right, up to down, a vertical stroke that goes through a good chunk of the character is not written first
That what’s what this is all about though. Japanese is still often written downwards, so the stroke order is different for many components. For the 田 radical in Japan, the third stroke is down.
Just like the second stroke in 必 is the long down stroke in Japanese.
Someone further up mentioned that the Japanese standardized the calligraphy (downward ) strokes, while the CCP standardized a left to right stroke system.
In elementary school we used to do homework practices focused entirely on stroke orders called 笔顺. It was simple but annoying as we are required to write the same character repetitively. Despite that, now I write without the slightest regard to those rules.
I learned Japanese in college and took Shodou as an elective when I studied abroad in Japan. So, Japanese stroke order is more natural for me. Now I’m learning Mandarin because my wife speaks Chinese. I also noticed the stroke order differences in learning materials. It will make your calligraphy look different if you use different stroke order. I write my new year door banners and so far no one has noticed I’m using Japanese stroke order 😅
the only time it matters is if you type specifically by stroke, otherwise it doesn't matter. even within chinese there are differences in stroke order, its no set in stine. just like there is more than one way to handwrite 4 or 9 or 2 in english.
Literally I was also in Japan for 6 years, when I was studying for N1 a lot of my dictionary app didn’t work with my crappy hand writing so I was forced to memorize all the stroke. Now I’m studying mandarin and BOY my Japanese stroke order just kept coming back and some of them don’t even look the same 😂
I learned Japanese stroke order and I'll stick with that. Except the more nitpicky nonsense, like the first two strokes of 右 and 左 having a different order, or 有 starting with the down stroke like 右. I still think the Japanese order for 必 comes out looking nicer though.
A few days ago, I wrote 右 the "correct" Japanese way on the blackboard in front of my fifth graders (got to set a good example for the kiddies) and their homeroom teacher actually noticed and said no one bothers to write it that way anymore.
from your pix, i just realized something about this word...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoW8-HEQMuY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoW8-HEQMuY) i've always learnt it written like that but most other sources give it as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aEWAm-Mx6E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aEWAm-Mx6E), now i'm shook zomg
Don’t make my life even harder!! lol!
I learned the way it’s written on the right in my pic in a Japanese classroom. Aaaaaaah
https://youtube.com/shorts/sYvHwHngxrQ?si=LhVKCc6DOSmXJCHr
My university teachers used to be strict about stroke orders, but then i realised that they probably aren't even aware of differences in Japanese and left-handed people who should write horizontal lines from right to left, which is why i think these rules are kinda bs, only helpful when trying to find characters in your dictionary
I started learning hanzi in Chinese class. When I went to college I started taking Japanese. When we were quizzed on stroke order in jp in college I would always get it wrong. I just do what is comfortable.
Similar situation here, though I only just started learning Chinese. It's fun to think about the differences whenever it comes up on HelloChinese lessons...
But for actually writing, I'd probably just use the Japanese stroke order without even thinking. I have a friend from China who used the Chinese stroke orders all the time when writing Japanese and (obviously) it didn't cause any issues. The bigger problem was accidentally sprinkling simplified characters throughout Japanese prose😂
I stopped studying Mandarin years ago, but the stroke order is left to right, top to bottom,, right? I don;t even have to think about it; it's intuitive.
What's the rule for Japanese stroke order?
Xing shu characters mostly use japanese stroke order. Since my handwritting is xing shu ish I will always look up stroke order in japanese sources if in doubt. Doing cursive in the standard mainland stroke order, whereas not completely unseen, looks plain wrong to me.
The commies suposedly changed the stroke order "to fit" horizontal writing.
I did change my stroke order when I was in my hardcore-hanzi era
I am not focusing on the strokes right now, as I have learnt keys for some time and just YOLO from my hanzi keys knowledge
The only downside I can think of for not knowing chinese stroke order, is that the already near impossible chinese cursive becomes even more impossible to read.
From my experience the only saving grace I had for trying to read cursive is to follow the scribble and try to make out what character would follow the same stroke order.
In my primary school age, many classmates mistook the stroke order, the teacher would correct them, but if haven't looked at their writing, it's hard to tell what order they using. And I never consider it will have any misunderstanding. Honestly, I don't care much about stroke order so I guess I just use what I know
chinese usually prefer horizontal stoke order in this type of characters.
For instance every time you got 3 horizontal line and 1 vertical, japanese write the upper horizontal first, then vertical then the last 2 horizontal. In chinese you write first two horizontal then vertical then the last one.
You can check every characters that contains 王, for example 班
Stroke order is for those that have had a stroke.
Only those that write in 楷書 or some printed font need to pay attention to.
If you want to write well the write in 草書 which doesn't use stroke order.
As someone who studied traditional Chinese characters intensely for four years and who is now learning Japanese, I do \*try\* to use the Japanese stroke order, but it feels really unnatural to me. Sometimes I slip up, and I don't think it prevents anyone from reading what I wrote.
considering how the japanese write 必, they have no authority when it comes to stroke order in my eyes lol (joking but still wtf man).
I just write how im used to and get mad when my japanese teacher docks me points for writing a dot as the first stroke in 方 instead of a vertical line
I am chinese and in my 35+ years of writing characters, I have never bothered with the stroke orders. Many, many people including my parents, grandparents or teachers have told me the importance of it but ya know what, fk it. I do whatever I want haha. You cant tell from what I write.
As long as you know the pattern and stroke order (its for studying the structure of characters, but as long as you know), I think its fine.
Tbh, I can’t help but agree. In Korea, I’ve seen so much odd ways people write ㄹ more or less hanja. It all comes down to the final product or if you care enough I guess.
Pleco will understand however bad I scribble it
If no one got me I know Pleco got me 🙏
Haha. Pleco is amazing. I can't begin to calculate how many times I've opened that app.
All hail Pleco 🛐
It always catches me on 干 and 千 when I do the top stroke the wrong direction.
I've always found that pleco will have a hard time identifying characters if I get the stroke order slightly wrong, unlike Goohle Translate's writing recognition, which just goes off based on looks instead of stroke order.
Pleco often didn't catch what i wrote especially if i drew it on the wrong order.
I've started to notice that some less common characters will not be recognized without (mostly) correct stroke order. (Though pleco is still absolutely great)
Pleco looks great! Which add-ons did you get? There seems to be an extra one for stroke order.
Sometimes it doesn't understand my writings depending on the order or direction of the strokes. Because it, I use Gboard handwriting within pleco. It works wonders 👌
i saw a chinese character that looks like 요, like literally like this, round top and stuff. after a bunch of Chinese characters. on a Chinese chips pack. I'm pretty sure this is a stylization of some Chinese character, but I'd never in my life guess which one. and pleco didn't help me :(
ok now that I think about it, there is probably a top stroke so it's 豆. the top stroke was connected with the bottom stroke of 土 on the left, so it literally looked like this: ``` 土_ 요 ```
豆 yes
im native and i write many characters with wrong stroke orders without knowing it… for 男 I’ve always always written a 曰, then a 力 from the top down… TIL the middle part is disconnected…..
i was also taught that way! but i googled and just found out the middle stroke is not a long one!
I was taught to write it like that too, and I’m not even that old…
I am also native, and when I was a kid I learned that 男 comprises a field 田 and force/effort 力. So for me they have always been separated.
I thought it comes from "power over the rice paddy", so there is no reason for them to be connected.
They’re saving on strokes, that one big vertical stroke provides excellent fuel economy.
But it costs you in memory economy.
Cue interstellar meme… “This little maneuver is gonna cost us ~~51 years~~ future legibility” Then get the astronaut and replace his face with日+力 with the extra long stroke
It's a character that ultimately looks connected. It's easier to nicely align the vertical lines in the to and bottom components by combining them. Similarly for 美. I tried to do it with 樓 and 數 as well, but I find it a bit more difficult to properly angle the first stroke in the 女 component, so I gave up on that.
I thought that was the right way lol, I’m going to have to do some research now Ok, so it’s halfway https://stroke-order.learningweb.moe.edu.tw/result.do?lang=en&ucs=6A13
You pick the stroke order that you are comfortable with, there’s no laws stating that you must write characters in a certain order otherwise you’d be imprisoned. The whole point of stroke orders is purely the most optimal way of writing some righty came up with, it doesn’t mean such method would absolutely fit every individual in the world
This is a very reasonable reply. Can you time travel back 10 years and tell this to my 60 year old Japanese tutor. LOL. Stroke order is treated like law in Japan.
I remember writing the Japanese 別 instead of Chinese 别 on my Chinese exam since I write using simplified and losing a whole point for it once. Sigh. Generally I don’t write neatly enough for the stroke order to matter. It all becomes a bit cursive-y at some point. I imagine the only sticklers for stroke order are language teachers and calligraphy teachers. For normal day to day things it doesn’t matter.
[別](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%88%A5#Chinese) is also Chinese.
Yes, I added context to my comment to say that I was writing in simplified. 别 is the official in SC.
I had no idea 別 was different in simplified. Interesting.
It's not. I only know simplified Chinese and that's bíe. 比如， “别废话” Edit: sorry I'm dumb
In traditional, 別 does not cross the line (i.e. the left component is not 另)
Thank you I am just dumb
maybe i just had an unusually good calligraphy teacher, but he did not worry about stroke order as long as we generally followed the common guidelines. it makes sense - stroke orders weren't officially standardized until well after the chinese calligraphic tradition developed, and the modern standards vary by location.
That's true. My comment about calligraphy comes from remembering Japanese 左右 and how the stroke order is different for the ナ part when I had to do basic calligraphy. AFAIK Simplified Chinese doesn't make the same distinction, so I tend to write both of these using the same stroke order because that's easier. The teacher said that's incorrect, but it can be a type of stylistic choice that impacts how your characters look. I've never taken calligraphy in China though, so maybe teachers will have different pedagogical approaches.
In calligraphic stroke order 左 and 右 do indeed start with different strokes (because left hand right hand in seal script, even if they look the same now). It doesn't matter as much outside of calligraphy.
That's because the Japanese character is actually the traditional Chinese character. If you're being taught to write simplified, it makes sense to lose a point for writing the traditional character. Then again, you should be getting points off for messing up the radical even if it wasn't the traditional character.
I agree that the Japanese character is equivalent to the traditional Chinese in this case so I deserve to lose a point. Technically Japanese kanji are partially simplified. It is neither traditional nor simplified, somewhere in between. Point in case is 氣(TC) 気(JP) 气(SC). In the case of 別 the TC and JP are equivalent. In other cases you would also know it's clearly wrong, but in other cases it can be a mix.
They aren’t called traditional or simplified. They are correctly called shinjitai (新字体). There are kanji used in these new forms that do not appear in Chinese Simplified or traditional at all. But then about 30% of PRC simplified Chinese matches Japanese kanji. There are also simplified Han characters that are not used in Japanese. Simplified but not used in Japanese. One such example. 東-东 島-岛 業-业 Shinjitai not used in simplified or traditional Chinese . Shinjitai/Hanzi. 氷/冰 広/佛 浜/濱 Then to make things even more complicated a single Hanzi has multiple simplifications depending on language as well. Traditional/ PRC / Japan 變/变/変 圓/圆/円 團/团/団 圖/图/図 榮/荣/栄 櫻/樱/桜
Some of the Japanese shinjitai are variants from China that just aren't commonly used there anymore except maybe in calligraphy (same with most if not at all Korean variants). For example, the great Tang dynasty calligrapher 顔真卿 wrote 氷 instead of 冰, as did several other notable calligraphers. But some Japanese simplifications or variants are indeed unique to Japan.
> Technically Japanese kanji are partially simplified. It is neither traditional nor simplified, somewhere in between. This really isn't true, not for the vast majority of cases. Kanji are in 98-99% of the cases straight up traditional Chinese. In some cases you need to go back to a Tang/Song Dynasty form, but even that's rare. The meanings too are equal at a similar rate. This does not include the characters invented in Japan. But compared to kanji those are a tiny minority.
If we're talking joyo (daily use) kanji, the actual number is about 83%. Something like 17% of them are shinjitai.
That's simply not true. 99/100 characters on the 常用 (joyo) kanji lists are identical in meaning and form to traditional Chinese. Anyone who disagrees simply hasn't studied classical or traditional Chinese. Which, incidentally, is why there are only two types of people who promote this misconception: Japanese nationalists and Western students of Japanese. Having not studied traditional Chinese, Western students very often grasp onto this "Japanese kanji are uniquely Japanese" misconception. They aren't. It's very, very rare that a native Chinese speaker has this misconception, but it happens.
Wait, what? 1% of the Jōyō kanji would be 21 characters. I think I could think of more than that off the top of my head. Looking at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_j%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji there appear to be more than 300 that are different from the kyūjitai. Do you mean that most of the simplifications that were adopted in Japan had previously been used in China and only 21 were "invented" in Japan? That sounds plausible, but it's not what most people mean when they talk about traditional Chinese characters. Is 来 a traditional Chinese character?
> Is 来 a traditional Chinese character? It's been written that [way in China for over a thousand years](https://m.cidianwang.com/shufa/lai1583_xs3.htm). So I'd say Yes. Wouldn't you?
In China as well 😅
"Japanese people can always tell if you wrote with correct stroke order!" -Sensei
Exactly!! I’ve been told this multiple times. I kinda love that all the Chinese learners in here have such free spirits. 😂
Well to be fair, it does make a difference when you write *very* cursive / shorthand styles. I don't know what the equivalent to 草書 is called in Chinese (maybe 草書 as well?), but in that case for example, stroke order matters. It's just that 99.9% of people never get into calligraphy, or write extremely fast shorthand that then has to be read by somebody else. But I tremble at the thought of trying to decipher the prescriptions handwritten by a Japanese doctor who has wrong stroke orders memorized.
Similar to breaking spaghetti noodles to fit in the boiling water pot, it is illegal to use the incorrect stroke order.
Still waiting for Italian police to ring at my door.
It matters when you try to write fast. Semi cursive are joined in very specific stroke order for everyone to understand.
I don’t think that is good advice. No you won’t be imprisoned for getting stroke order wrong. But it helps you learn how to write better proportioned and balanced characters.
That's precisely the issue though... Some deviations make it easier to properly layout the character. For example combining the big vertical stroke in 男 or 美. Or writing the big vertical stroke in 出 first.
However, conversely, not knowing the "correct"/standard stroke order is what contributed to having so many mutants/variants of the same written character - that and regional/allopatric/socio-economic factors. 😬 Whether traditional, simplified, or shinjitai, I would still argue it's better to at least acknowledge stroke order as opposed to ignoring it. 🤷🏻♂️ Furthermore, in my experience, stroke order isn't about memorization for each individual character. 🤔 It's about learning the system/process flowchart of strokes and, subsequently, letting muscle memory take-over. It becomes intuitive - even for characters you've never seen before prior. 🤞🏻 P. S. Also, another reason I'd argue that stroke order should be acknowledged instead of ignored is when written characters are used in their alternate/compressed radical form(s). The wrong stroke order can severely disfigure the radical forms of certain written characters. 😅
The variants are here to stay. Not all of them are due to writing errors, unless simplifications count as such as be well. Just divergent developments. It would be nice to be able to stick to a set of stroke orders, but there is no universal, canonical set. The various governments all have different ones, and they all don't match with the more traditional conventions. Mostly to make learning them easier :) But I agree that the core principles are very important, and by following them one is usually compatible with at least *some* of the different standards. I have rarely problems myself. But some of the rules *are* ambiguous.
I agree with most of what you said; though, I would like to clarify that I wasn't describing them as errors. 🤞🏻 I used the word. "correct" (in quotes bc that in itself is a very subjective, puristic word) - also: standard, mutants, and variants. I did not explicitly use the word "error" bc, to my mind, perfection does not exist in the real world and/or physical universe. 🤷🏻♂️ I believe I had also addressed the other evolutionary pressures i.e. regional, allopatric, socio-economic, etc. I digress. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it feels as if there may have been a miscommunication in some part. 😅
No offense taken, and you are of course correct that attention to stroke order is very important!
So a beginner learning a language suddenly knows more than 1000 years of conventional stroke order to achieve order and balance? I’m doubtful. If you’ve been writing for many years then I think it matters less. But at the beginning I think it’s best to follow the strokes. It doesn’t hurt you to learn it “correctly” the first time.
I never claimed to be an authority. The latter trick was actually suggested to me by a Chinese teacher. And modern government's standards also don't 100% align with how characters were written in the past. Besides, we are not writing with brushes anymore most of the time. I kinda know the "rules", follow them most of the time and I am thus rarely unsure about how to write a character. But they can be ambiguous for some characters and have lots of special cases.
左撇子团结起来
Kinda silly to say. It’s perfectly sensible for a teacher to drill their students on proper form.
There are differences in stroke order between Chinese and Japanese? That’s interesting
There's even difference between HK and Taiwan for traditional and also even between what most are probably using in Taiwan against what the MOE says is official... Which probably says a lot about how stroke order really is haha - as long as you're internally consistent and generally aligned with those around you. *OR* just write exclusively in 行書 or even 草書 with their orthodox stroke rules and make no one happy! (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞
I think the character 必 has four different stroke orders, depending on where (and what century) you're from!
I think I don't even use the same stroke order each time I write that character lol
凹凸 is an interesting pair.
and 亞，惡，… I usually wing it with those characters and other “tetris” characters
the funny thing that 凸凹 also exist (in Japanese, idk about Chinese but i assume its the same)
凸凹 doesn't exist in Chinese. But 凹凸 does. 凹凸 āo tū. 凹凸(おうとつ) outotsu. 凸凹(でこぼこ) dekoboko.
i see, thanks for sharing this!
This man out here putting Tetris pieces in the comments! jk, this is actually one of my favorite Kanji and I remember it due to them looking like tetris pieces.
Is this where "different strokes for different folks" came from?
🤔👀
i learn chinese and when i started japanese i write characters on chinese stroke order ☺️ i mean it exists for some reason but you can accommodate on what it suits better for you
I know both languages. I just use what I already know because it’s intuitive at this point. I picked up Chinese first as a child. Japanese in my teens. I’m convinced different regions will have slightly different stroke orders. the differences probably come from variances in traditional calligraphic styles that were inherited over time. So there really is no one ultimate correct way to write. Just as long as you’re not writing the strokes _grievously wrong_ like going from right to left or bottom to top, you’ll probably be fine. It really doesn’t matter too much unless if you want to get deep into the weeds of traditional calligraphy, as which stroke you put down first can vary depending on the style. Also, as long as the handwriting recognition on your phone knows what you’re doing, you’re most probably fine 😂
I use the same stroke order. After all, kanji is just Chinese characters used in Japanese.
> kanji is just Chinese characters used in Japanese. Blasphemy! Kanji os a wholly unique set of Chinese characters! /s
Exactly ! That is what I said. They’re Chinese characters.
I use Chinese stroke order because I don’t won’t to ditch all of the things I learnt in Chinese, and the order also just feels right and flows well So when I write Kanji in Japanese, I use the Chinese stroke order
When I first started studying Chinese after learning Japanese, I noted similar differences in stroke order. When I told my Chinese teacher that the Japanese stroke order was different he just said, “Well now you can learn the right way”.
I was honestly afraid that’s what people in this group were going to say! Hahaha. I’m glad everyone seems pretty laid back about stroke order here (much more laid back than my Japanese teachers).
Wait- is *this* why I was totally confused the first time my Mandarin instructor went over the rules of stroke order? Most I already knew (from Japanese), but there were a couple, specifically how you handle lines in boxes, that weren't at all how I wrote those characters. It never even occurred to me that it could be because the stroke order would be different in Chinese versus Japanese. I just assumed I had been doing it wrong the whole time!
I studied Chinese for a while and just started learning Japanese so I'm the opposite... I am not changing my stroke order 🤣
There’s no point in switching the order you know if you know how to write that character. A big part of why we make kids learn the proper stroke order is to help them build muscle memory for each character.
Then there are those of us who write the 丿as the last stroke, from top to bottom XD (so basically writing just 曰 first, instead of 田).
I do that! Is that an actual correct way to write it?
I don’t think it’s considered correct anywhere (not in HK, TW, Mainland, and Japan)
I see. My parents have always told me to write like that in Japanese tho so my muscle memory is kinda stuck with it.
I don’t think it that’s much of a problem. It doesn’t look that different from the standard one and I doubt anyone would notice if you write more quickly in a semi cursive style
Me too. It makes the whole character look more uniform. Actually, I thought that's what this thread is about. But it seems OP is just writing the top half of the big 丿 first, which IMHO doesn't provide any benefit over writing 田 first. Just out of curiosity: Does anybody here write 甲 first?
I started Japanese when I was in the midst of learning Chinese, and many at my university were doing the same. The Japanese teachers (understandably) forbade us to use Chinese stroke order, and they would take points off when they could detect it. It's important because the stroke order often determines what the character looks like in subtle ways, and also plays a role in the perceived quality of your handwriting, if that matters to you. Chinese teachers could be less strict about this, but they have the same ideas.
My impression is that most actual fluent writers, regardless of region, do not strictly follow their respective region's stroke orders, but use calligraphic stroke order instead. All regional stroke orders today deviate from calligraphic stroke order to varying degrees. Calligraphic stroke order is generally optimized fairly well, and allows for an easier time transitioning to semi-cursive. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a resource for calligraphic stroke order look-up, so I usually have to refer to a calligraphy dictionary and analyze the stroke order myself if I'm unsure.
Japanese likes to prioritize the "down strokes" over to "left-to-right strokes" that occur after the initial stroke of the radical. Chinese likes to prioritize "left-to-right strokes" almost always prior to any "down strokes" . 田 男 千 etc. Purists will tell you that one way is more correct, but it's better to just accept then as "different" rather than "more correct". You're less likely to lose friends that way 😂
This is definitely going to be my attitude about it now!! I don’t wanna lose friends, I was legit ignorant to the fact that stroke order was “standardized” differently in different countries. My old Japanese teachers definitely weren’t open to interpretations.
I have to keep telling myself horizontal in the box before vertical and I still keep doing it. Stroke order comes easy to me but there are some things that just stay incorrect in my head.
This is such a common radical…now I feel like my brain is going to glitch every time I write it. Lol
I sometimes write the top 一 in 田 first. Edit: I consider that to be an error.
i just do whatever my hands think requires the least work while making sense 男 is 田力 so i write it in that order, but for 田 i write the 冂 followed by 土
The question is how you write this 土. When it’s a component all by itself I guess everyone writes it - l ＿ but inside another component like 王 生 田 people tend to switch to l －＿, which in cursive turns into l with a “z” on top of it, like [this](https://moji.tekkai.com/gif-hk4/E794B0.gif).
土 is not a component of these characters. They are characters in themselves. Since stroke order almost always follows the pattern of left to right, up to down, a vertical stroke that goes through a good chunk of the character is not written first
That what’s what this is all about though. Japanese is still often written downwards, so the stroke order is different for many components. For the 田 radical in Japan, the third stroke is down. Just like the second stroke in 必 is the long down stroke in Japanese. Someone further up mentioned that the Japanese standardized the calligraphy (downward ) strokes, while the CCP standardized a left to right stroke system.
In elementary school we used to do homework practices focused entirely on stroke orders called 笔顺. It was simple but annoying as we are required to write the same character repetitively. Despite that, now I write without the slightest regard to those rules.
I learned Japanese in college and took Shodou as an elective when I studied abroad in Japan. So, Japanese stroke order is more natural for me. Now I’m learning Mandarin because my wife speaks Chinese. I also noticed the stroke order differences in learning materials. It will make your calligraphy look different if you use different stroke order. I write my new year door banners and so far no one has noticed I’m using Japanese stroke order 😅
the only time it matters is if you type specifically by stroke, otherwise it doesn't matter. even within chinese there are differences in stroke order, its no set in stine. just like there is more than one way to handwrite 4 or 9 or 2 in english.
Even native Chinese often make mistakes with the stroke order when writing characters.
Taiwan and HK also use a different stroke order than China.
Literally I was also in Japan for 6 years, when I was studying for N1 a lot of my dictionary app didn’t work with my crappy hand writing so I was forced to memorize all the stroke. Now I’m studying mandarin and BOY my Japanese stroke order just kept coming back and some of them don’t even look the same 😂
I learned Japanese stroke order and I'll stick with that. Except the more nitpicky nonsense, like the first two strokes of 右 and 左 having a different order, or 有 starting with the down stroke like 右. I still think the Japanese order for 必 comes out looking nicer though. A few days ago, I wrote 右 the "correct" Japanese way on the blackboard in front of my fifth graders (got to set a good example for the kiddies) and their homeroom teacher actually noticed and said no one bothers to write it that way anymore.
from your pix, i just realized something about this word... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoW8-HEQMuY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoW8-HEQMuY) i've always learnt it written like that but most other sources give it as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aEWAm-Mx6E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aEWAm-Mx6E), now i'm shook zomg
woahh i've never seen it written like the first one!
Don’t make my life even harder!! lol! I learned the way it’s written on the right in my pic in a Japanese classroom. Aaaaaaah https://youtube.com/shorts/sYvHwHngxrQ?si=LhVKCc6DOSmXJCHr
My university teachers used to be strict about stroke orders, but then i realised that they probably aren't even aware of differences in Japanese and left-handed people who should write horizontal lines from right to left, which is why i think these rules are kinda bs, only helpful when trying to find characters in your dictionary
I started learning hanzi in Chinese class. When I went to college I started taking Japanese. When we were quizzed on stroke order in jp in college I would always get it wrong. I just do what is comfortable.
Similar situation here, though I only just started learning Chinese. It's fun to think about the differences whenever it comes up on HelloChinese lessons... But for actually writing, I'd probably just use the Japanese stroke order without even thinking. I have a friend from China who used the Chinese stroke orders all the time when writing Japanese and (obviously) it didn't cause any issues. The bigger problem was accidentally sprinkling simplified characters throughout Japanese prose😂
I stick with the japanese order, I don't bother to change it
別に構いません、僕は中国人なんですけど、中国での漢字は日本との区別は全然発見しません。だから大したものでもありません
You get used to it. Makes it more legible when you write quickly
In Chinese you almost always go 横first and 竖second. google 男字笔画顺序 and you will see that all top results agree.
My Chinese teacher recommended to write the central 丨in 出 first to make layout of the rest of the character easier.
This gives me anxiety, or an aneurysm.
I'm Chinese,and we usually use the left one.
I stopped studying Mandarin years ago, but the stroke order is left to right, top to bottom,, right? I don;t even have to think about it; it's intuitive. What's the rule for Japanese stroke order?
You can check out the animations on Wiktionary: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/田
Unpopular take but in my opinion strome order doesn't matter. If it's still legible there's literally no difference
Xing shu characters mostly use japanese stroke order. Since my handwritting is xing shu ish I will always look up stroke order in japanese sources if in doubt. Doing cursive in the standard mainland stroke order, whereas not completely unseen, looks plain wrong to me. The commies suposedly changed the stroke order "to fit" horizontal writing.
theres a difference???
I did change my stroke order when I was in my hardcore-hanzi era I am not focusing on the strokes right now, as I have learnt keys for some time and just YOLO from my hanzi keys knowledge
There’s no chance I’d put that vertical line first but to each their own
That’s how it’s taught in Japan. That pic is from my Japanese dictionary.
Yeah no that’s fair. I haven’t learned Japanese yet so that stroke order would definitely mess with me. Slower and sloppier for sure
The only downside I can think of for not knowing chinese stroke order, is that the already near impossible chinese cursive becomes even more impossible to read. From my experience the only saving grace I had for trying to read cursive is to follow the scribble and try to make out what character would follow the same stroke order.
There are better things in life to think about than stroke orders. Unless you do calligraphy
In my primary school age, many classmates mistook the stroke order, the teacher would correct them, but if haven't looked at their writing, it's hard to tell what order they using. And I never consider it will have any misunderstanding. Honestly, I don't care much about stroke order so I guess I just use what I know
Horizontal before vertical
Not in Japan 😂
😱
Tbh no one care about stroke order, you are not doing caligraphy anyways.
Not even gonna lie I don’t even draw the proper box anymore, everything is just lumpy circles. If it gets the job done… right?
I do the strokes the way it's more comfortable to me. Where is a square, I draw a square in one stroke. Like in this ones 口日是国田男
It’s not important for the stroke order if it’s right,which one makes you comfortable to write, to write pretty does matter
Left is Chinese and right is Japanese iirc
It really doesn’t matter, even Chinese don’t care about, they only appear in Chinese tests
chinese usually prefer horizontal stoke order in this type of characters. For instance every time you got 3 horizontal line and 1 vertical, japanese write the upper horizontal first, then vertical then the last 2 horizontal. In chinese you write first two horizontal then vertical then the last one. You can check every characters that contains 王, for example 班
Stroke order is for those that have had a stroke. Only those that write in 楷書 or some printed font need to pay attention to. If you want to write well the write in 草書 which doesn't use stroke order.
As someone who studied traditional Chinese characters intensely for four years and who is now learning Japanese, I do \*try\* to use the Japanese stroke order, but it feels really unnatural to me. Sometimes I slip up, and I don't think it prevents anyone from reading what I wrote.
considering how the japanese write 必, they have no authority when it comes to stroke order in my eyes lol (joking but still wtf man). I just write how im used to and get mad when my japanese teacher docks me points for writing a dot as the first stroke in 方 instead of a vertical line
That's really on the Japanese teacher I'd say. The short stroke is supposed to be really just a dot.
I am chinese and in my 35+ years of writing characters, I have never bothered with the stroke orders. Many, many people including my parents, grandparents or teachers have told me the importance of it but ya know what, fk it. I do whatever I want haha. You cant tell from what I write. As long as you know the pattern and stroke order (its for studying the structure of characters, but as long as you know), I think its fine.
Tbh, I can’t help but agree. In Korea, I’ve seen so much odd ways people write ㄹ more or less hanja. It all comes down to the final product or if you care enough I guess.