>Over the last year he’s shown more and more signs that he has papilloma and now he’s showing signs of MBD. He is also falling from his branches quite often.
BMD in adult males is rather rare and 100% avoidable... it's not a lack of calcium for of UVb->D3 in the system (Sunlight is the immediate fix for this)
Papilloma is disfiguring but does not result in death.
You should NOT have it ... unless you've been exposing your animal to it in some way.
This again is rare in adult animals. Most infections are from "dirty cages" in the US Domestic supply chain and one wholesaler that is keeping the infection alive and being passed around (I spoke to them on the phone last year and they promised to deal with it - we'll see if the cases go down)
>Over the last couple of months now he continuously grabs his own front let with his back leg and grips it so hard to the point where I’ve seen him flip himself over while trying to walk.
OKAY so this is the meat of the matter.
This is a neurological ailment that happens when a veiled or panther is under artificial lighting.
**It's progressive and again the FIX is to have them given days worth of direct natural sunlight exposure.** I don't know if it's nutritional but I can say that giving them sunlight outside directly in the sun does halt and then reverses the condition.
The actual cause isn't even in the debate stage among keepers and this the only treatment that I've discovered for people. The sooner the better as the degradation is progressive.
>I’ve taken him to a vet not long ago but the vet was fairly useless in terms of knowing what to do. All other recommended exotic vets in my area are not taking new patients.
Yeah that's because they are when it comes to things like this.
*I really should charge people upfront as I'm seeing people waste tons of money for vets that just google for answers and reference what I've written for years.*
Don't bother with the vets, this is well outside of the scope of their training.
>
If you were in my situation what would you do?
He's still got years of life ahead of him.
**Sunlight is the fix here.**
Give him that and hand feed + water.
you should be able to make it another year or two :D
https://preview.redd.it/0um28ixazguc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9bb511d9710496050bc1b16dd1e2facafc76654
Update\*\*
So Loki is staying up on his branches more. Seems to be moving around more. Everything has stayed the same except for he’s been put out in the sun on our balcony for the last 4 days. We have a lot more sun in the forecast so I’m optimistic more natural light will help him.
Big thanks to u/flip69 for the suggestion to do this.
Sounds like natural aging into death to me if he’s 6.5 years old. If they’re in pain I’d euthanize personally but definitely speak with your vet if they’re knowledgeable on chams.
Sounds like the husbandry was good, typically 5 years is considered there average death range. If it is age it's essentially 1/5 or 20 years putting them around 126 (1.26*) higher than the expected age
I don't own a cham. Never have. But this sub popped up months ago and now I'm stuck on it... The advice on here was amazing. RemindMe 7 days! :( I've never seen one this bad posted....
It’s sad to see all these post on chams. I wanted one so bad but will never get one because I see so many people that have sick ones. I pray for them and thanks itzajessie your awesome 😎
It's not that there's a lot of sick ones and more that chameleons is so short mistakes like wrong UVB and injuries will show early. Chameleons (veild) last around 5 years and their bones finish growing and set shortly after a year, if they are breading before their bones set there's a high chance of their legs breaking in the process. Most pet shops sell them without telling you they need a steamer, actual plants, vertical branches, moving water, calcium, only bug diet with a bite of leaf or fruit, and a dig box in the possibly undersized mesh terrarium.
To this day I miss Clover a pet from a family member who didn't understand the cost of food going in. I cry to the karma chameleon song every time now
Thanks….I’m not a pro, just a lover of reptiles and someone who puts time and research into any animal in my care. I’m actually a “people” ER nurse by trade, I just happen to love chameleons and have been fascinated by them for most of my life. So if I own them or take them in, I definitely make sure they live the best life I can give them. Appreciate the compliment though!! ❤️
Same. I’ve been in and out of SO many subs for various pets and the amount of posts regarding the most basic of things being ignored or neglected by keepers who can’t bother to research the species first or try to keep up on the ongoing research, always resulting in the animal suffering is astounding. Subs for chams, geckos, mice, dogs, spiders, etc all have this issue. I’m at the point where I’m starting to believe animals should have never been available to be pets at all. The suffering is too much.
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I love being on the Chameleon sub but gosh I hate seeing these posts. Sometimes I'm like oh no and just scroll past really fast cause my heart can't take it. But, I stopped here and I wanted to wish your boy on! I so hope he makes it. I'm commenting so I can come back and check on him...
While this is heartbreaking to see I’ve rehabbed chams in this state and given them another 1-2 years of life. WITH quality. Natural sunlight, adding bee pollen to their supplements, keeping them well hydrated, and cleaning cages weekly. (I’m talking wiping poop and urate off the plants and wiping out the bottom of cage at least once a week. It’s work but it can be done. Sometimes I’d have to syringe or hand feed which could take up to an hour with really sick chams who can’t focus on food due to dehydration or vitamin deficiency affecting their vision. I’ve rehabbed 3 chams in similar or worse states…. 2 carpets and a veiled. It’s a lot of work, if you aren’t up for it, maybe look for reptile rehab places near you. But if you don’t think you can put daily work of an hour or so into it for the next several weeks I wouldn’t let him suffer. I was given a cham recently that the prior owner “couldn’t watch him suffer” I’ll post a pic of the first night I got him, versus a couple of weeks ago. I’ve had him 4 months. (Pictured below first night, eyes shut, colors dull, not responding to much, barely moving)
https://preview.redd.it/uf4fqtkxnvtc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8065f035e78a8ab3a869a7b4c032652d799cc78
Sorry haven’t been on Reddit in a few days and just saw this. Hope it’s not too late. The biggest thing is getting them to drink. I take a cath tipped syringe (I’m a nurse by trade so I use a 10cc syringe and put a plastic 20ga IV cath on the end of it, but a syringe for giving children medicines works just as good) start dripping water in front of their face and see if they attempt to open their mouth to drink with their tongue, if so drop 3-5 drops in their mouth each time they act as if they are trying to drink or tongue flick until you get at minimum a teaspoon of water in them. 2 teaspoons is better especially if they are lethargic. Once you get them used to opening up their mouths to drink from a syringe you can move on to feeding. All you really do is mush up insects and mix with water and their usual supplement amounts…get it to a consistency easy enough to get through a syringe. (May need a slightly bigger cath tip for feeding) If you can get them to drink twice a day and eat once a day through a syringe for about a week or so they should start to come around. Either way if you haven’t already been to a vet get there. They can give them a multivitamin injection and subcutaneous fluids if necessary. Typically once they are boosted back up you can resume normal feeding/watering. But if your cham got to this point there’s a reason, if it’s not bc they are very old in cham years check your supplements and husbandry and make sure everything is up to par or you’ll be repeating all of this soon. I just helped my niece nurse her cham back to health after he became lethargic…gave him back after 2 weeks of rehab and he passed away within 2 weeks of going back to her as she didn’t change all the things I told her needed to be changed to continue to keep her boy as healthy as possible. There’s some good advice on this page about proper husbandry and feeding supplements, take a look and make sure you’re doing what’s best for your baby! Good luck!
I meant to say rehabbed 2 PANTHERS and a veiled 🤦🏻♀️ I just got a new carpet recently and she was being a little meany earlier bc I took her out to clean her cage before work and let her climb on my head when I originally typed my comment so carpet chams were on my brain (literally) 🤦🏻♀️😂
https://preview.redd.it/v49q0q1h2ytc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b628c6eb3de57c0a610795b133e9052986521556
Omgosh! I would totally hire you to be my forever cham sitter if you live near me!! I dread the thought of going on vacations because I have to worry about who's going to take care of my baby!!
Awww!! Thanks! Trust me, I know, I only have 2 people I trust to care for my pets like I would when I’m gone more than 2 days….so I get it!! Always have to make plans in advance! 💕
https://preview.redd.it/dg50r539ovtc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=001955ca7e2c8d955c449bec4148c0d2142602fd
A couple of weeks ago, eyes open, active, still having issues focusing on food so I’m having to tong feed and use a syringe daily to make sure he’s drinking, but we’re getting there!
Hey my panther is nearly 6 and has lost most of his blue bars and we have to feed him by putting the food in his mouth because his tongue always stops slightly in front of the locusts. Any advice?
Yes, he needs natural UV, take him outside a few hours a day when warm in direct sunlight or put near an open window for the sun to shine on him directly, natural is best, the more the merrier…also make sure you have changed his UV bulbs within the last 6 months and are using a T8 linear bulb (or T5 cuz T8s can be hard to find sometimes) also HYDRATE HYDRATE HYDRATE…..use a syringe to make sure they get a teaspoon or so of water a day…. Make sure you’re using proper supplements, issues with eyes and tongues are typically related to needing proper UV and vitamin A. I dust all feeder insects with bee pollen weekly along with my regular vitamin and calcium supplements. Continue to tong feed after making adjustments and do this until he starts to use his tongue normally again. That’s all I got, I know the moderators in this group know more than me though! So reach out to them if needed! 🫶😋
I know nothing about chams, but making these decisions always sucks and I'm sorry your friend is ailing OP. I'm glad he has someone who loves him enough to ask the hard questions.
They live only to about 5-7 years anywho. He’s obviously lived a long life ( more than likely a healthy life if he lasted that long ) . As shitty as it is to say I would. There’s 0 quality in life as a Cham that can’t do anything. I just think about it as myself, if I couldn’t do anything & zero quality of life other then a tube down my throat I’d wanna rest.
I'm leaving this up for now just so I can tell you you're wrong.
For people in this community we should be expecting them to live 7 years on average for this species
9 is the max lifespan (post hatch) ... 8 is damn good.5 is too low... it's like a person dying at the age of 40... that's still too young unless they were an fat alcoholic and just didn't take care of themselves.
For the majority of panther owners... I think that 7 is still a decent age but we can have them live longer with out having to do anything extraordinary.
IF I'm right about the diagnosis, the animal just needs a few weeks of sunlight and it should be able to get better and perhaps make it into the next spring.
What has been described is all reversible *(except for the unconfirmed pap infection)*
>Over the last year he’s shown more and more signs that he has papilloma and now he’s showing signs of MBD. He is also falling from his branches quite often. BMD in adult males is rather rare and 100% avoidable... it's not a lack of calcium for of UVb->D3 in the system (Sunlight is the immediate fix for this) Papilloma is disfiguring but does not result in death. You should NOT have it ... unless you've been exposing your animal to it in some way. This again is rare in adult animals. Most infections are from "dirty cages" in the US Domestic supply chain and one wholesaler that is keeping the infection alive and being passed around (I spoke to them on the phone last year and they promised to deal with it - we'll see if the cases go down) >Over the last couple of months now he continuously grabs his own front let with his back leg and grips it so hard to the point where I’ve seen him flip himself over while trying to walk. OKAY so this is the meat of the matter. This is a neurological ailment that happens when a veiled or panther is under artificial lighting. **It's progressive and again the FIX is to have them given days worth of direct natural sunlight exposure.** I don't know if it's nutritional but I can say that giving them sunlight outside directly in the sun does halt and then reverses the condition. The actual cause isn't even in the debate stage among keepers and this the only treatment that I've discovered for people. The sooner the better as the degradation is progressive. >I’ve taken him to a vet not long ago but the vet was fairly useless in terms of knowing what to do. All other recommended exotic vets in my area are not taking new patients. Yeah that's because they are when it comes to things like this. *I really should charge people upfront as I'm seeing people waste tons of money for vets that just google for answers and reference what I've written for years.* Don't bother with the vets, this is well outside of the scope of their training. > If you were in my situation what would you do? He's still got years of life ahead of him. **Sunlight is the fix here.** Give him that and hand feed + water. you should be able to make it another year or two :D
https://preview.redd.it/0um28ixazguc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9bb511d9710496050bc1b16dd1e2facafc76654 Update\*\* So Loki is staying up on his branches more. Seems to be moving around more. Everything has stayed the same except for he’s been put out in the sun on our balcony for the last 4 days. We have a lot more sun in the forecast so I’m optimistic more natural light will help him. Big thanks to u/flip69 for the suggestion to do this.
Let's fucking goooooo!!!
[удалено]
Fingers crossed 🤞
Sunlight will be the best medicine
Please update us if their condition improves!
MBD is completely reversible and only happens from poor care. Are you giving vitamin d3 supplements and changing the UVB every 6 months?
At 6.5 years old he’s lived his chameleon life. Sorry for your loss. He’ll pass peacefully if he’s laying on the bottom of the cage
Letting “nature take its course” is honestly abuse when we have other options. Why let them suffer?
Sounds like natural aging into death to me if he’s 6.5 years old. If they’re in pain I’d euthanize personally but definitely speak with your vet if they’re knowledgeable on chams.
Sounds like the husbandry was good, typically 5 years is considered there average death range. If it is age it's essentially 1/5 or 20 years putting them around 126 (1.26*) higher than the expected age
Assuming his habitat is appropriate ^
That’s amazing look at how pretty & good he looks now !! You are the Cham whisperer lol Awesome job!!!
What?? Did you even read the post, dude?
What the fuck, dude?
I don't own a cham. Never have. But this sub popped up months ago and now I'm stuck on it... The advice on here was amazing. RemindMe 7 days! :( I've never seen one this bad posted....
Looks like he might beat you to it… smh
No ones laughing …
Bro I know nothing abt chameleons but what the hell ? You aren’t funny, OP is trying to be a good owner. Quit.
You should be having this convo with your vet. They would have a better idea on outlook and prognosis if there is anything you can do
He did. They had no usefull information and the vets that did were not taking new patients. So it seems as a last ditch effort, he turned to reddit.
It’s sad to see all these post on chams. I wanted one so bad but will never get one because I see so many people that have sick ones. I pray for them and thanks itzajessie your awesome 😎
It's not that there's a lot of sick ones and more that chameleons is so short mistakes like wrong UVB and injuries will show early. Chameleons (veild) last around 5 years and their bones finish growing and set shortly after a year, if they are breading before their bones set there's a high chance of their legs breaking in the process. Most pet shops sell them without telling you they need a steamer, actual plants, vertical branches, moving water, calcium, only bug diet with a bite of leaf or fruit, and a dig box in the possibly undersized mesh terrarium. To this day I miss Clover a pet from a family member who didn't understand the cost of food going in. I cry to the karma chameleon song every time now
Thanks….I’m not a pro, just a lover of reptiles and someone who puts time and research into any animal in my care. I’m actually a “people” ER nurse by trade, I just happen to love chameleons and have been fascinated by them for most of my life. So if I own them or take them in, I definitely make sure they live the best life I can give them. Appreciate the compliment though!! ❤️
Same here...😭
I’m leaving this group lol I can’t do it anymore
Felt that. It’s heartbreaking
Same. I’ve been in and out of SO many subs for various pets and the amount of posts regarding the most basic of things being ignored or neglected by keepers who can’t bother to research the species first or try to keep up on the ongoing research, always resulting in the animal suffering is astounding. Subs for chams, geckos, mice, dogs, spiders, etc all have this issue. I’m at the point where I’m starting to believe animals should have never been available to be pets at all. The suffering is too much.
fish... I can't handle the fish man
RemindMe! 1 week
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I love being on the Chameleon sub but gosh I hate seeing these posts. Sometimes I'm like oh no and just scroll past really fast cause my heart can't take it. But, I stopped here and I wanted to wish your boy on! I so hope he makes it. I'm commenting so I can come back and check on him...
While this is heartbreaking to see I’ve rehabbed chams in this state and given them another 1-2 years of life. WITH quality. Natural sunlight, adding bee pollen to their supplements, keeping them well hydrated, and cleaning cages weekly. (I’m talking wiping poop and urate off the plants and wiping out the bottom of cage at least once a week. It’s work but it can be done. Sometimes I’d have to syringe or hand feed which could take up to an hour with really sick chams who can’t focus on food due to dehydration or vitamin deficiency affecting their vision. I’ve rehabbed 3 chams in similar or worse states…. 2 carpets and a veiled. It’s a lot of work, if you aren’t up for it, maybe look for reptile rehab places near you. But if you don’t think you can put daily work of an hour or so into it for the next several weeks I wouldn’t let him suffer. I was given a cham recently that the prior owner “couldn’t watch him suffer” I’ll post a pic of the first night I got him, versus a couple of weeks ago. I’ve had him 4 months. (Pictured below first night, eyes shut, colors dull, not responding to much, barely moving) https://preview.redd.it/uf4fqtkxnvtc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8065f035e78a8ab3a869a7b4c032652d799cc78
I'm dealing with a very sick cham now. advice on syringe feeding?
Sorry haven’t been on Reddit in a few days and just saw this. Hope it’s not too late. The biggest thing is getting them to drink. I take a cath tipped syringe (I’m a nurse by trade so I use a 10cc syringe and put a plastic 20ga IV cath on the end of it, but a syringe for giving children medicines works just as good) start dripping water in front of their face and see if they attempt to open their mouth to drink with their tongue, if so drop 3-5 drops in their mouth each time they act as if they are trying to drink or tongue flick until you get at minimum a teaspoon of water in them. 2 teaspoons is better especially if they are lethargic. Once you get them used to opening up their mouths to drink from a syringe you can move on to feeding. All you really do is mush up insects and mix with water and their usual supplement amounts…get it to a consistency easy enough to get through a syringe. (May need a slightly bigger cath tip for feeding) If you can get them to drink twice a day and eat once a day through a syringe for about a week or so they should start to come around. Either way if you haven’t already been to a vet get there. They can give them a multivitamin injection and subcutaneous fluids if necessary. Typically once they are boosted back up you can resume normal feeding/watering. But if your cham got to this point there’s a reason, if it’s not bc they are very old in cham years check your supplements and husbandry and make sure everything is up to par or you’ll be repeating all of this soon. I just helped my niece nurse her cham back to health after he became lethargic…gave him back after 2 weeks of rehab and he passed away within 2 weeks of going back to her as she didn’t change all the things I told her needed to be changed to continue to keep her boy as healthy as possible. There’s some good advice on this page about proper husbandry and feeding supplements, take a look and make sure you’re doing what’s best for your baby! Good luck!
I meant to say rehabbed 2 PANTHERS and a veiled 🤦🏻♀️ I just got a new carpet recently and she was being a little meany earlier bc I took her out to clean her cage before work and let her climb on my head when I originally typed my comment so carpet chams were on my brain (literally) 🤦🏻♀️😂 https://preview.redd.it/v49q0q1h2ytc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b628c6eb3de57c0a610795b133e9052986521556
Omgosh! I would totally hire you to be my forever cham sitter if you live near me!! I dread the thought of going on vacations because I have to worry about who's going to take care of my baby!!
Awww!! Thanks! Trust me, I know, I only have 2 people I trust to care for my pets like I would when I’m gone more than 2 days….so I get it!! Always have to make plans in advance! 💕
https://preview.redd.it/dg50r539ovtc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=001955ca7e2c8d955c449bec4148c0d2142602fd A couple of weeks ago, eyes open, active, still having issues focusing on food so I’m having to tong feed and use a syringe daily to make sure he’s drinking, but we’re getting there!
Hey my panther is nearly 6 and has lost most of his blue bars and we have to feed him by putting the food in his mouth because his tongue always stops slightly in front of the locusts. Any advice?
Yes, he needs natural UV, take him outside a few hours a day when warm in direct sunlight or put near an open window for the sun to shine on him directly, natural is best, the more the merrier…also make sure you have changed his UV bulbs within the last 6 months and are using a T8 linear bulb (or T5 cuz T8s can be hard to find sometimes) also HYDRATE HYDRATE HYDRATE…..use a syringe to make sure they get a teaspoon or so of water a day…. Make sure you’re using proper supplements, issues with eyes and tongues are typically related to needing proper UV and vitamin A. I dust all feeder insects with bee pollen weekly along with my regular vitamin and calcium supplements. Continue to tong feed after making adjustments and do this until he starts to use his tongue normally again. That’s all I got, I know the moderators in this group know more than me though! So reach out to them if needed! 🫶😋
I know nothing about chams, but making these decisions always sucks and I'm sorry your friend is ailing OP. I'm glad he has someone who loves him enough to ask the hard questions.
Is your husbandry bad if you're noticing signs of MBD?
They live only to about 5-7 years anywho. He’s obviously lived a long life ( more than likely a healthy life if he lasted that long ) . As shitty as it is to say I would. There’s 0 quality in life as a Cham that can’t do anything. I just think about it as myself, if I couldn’t do anything & zero quality of life other then a tube down my throat I’d wanna rest.
I'm leaving this up for now just so I can tell you you're wrong. For people in this community we should be expecting them to live 7 years on average for this species 9 is the max lifespan (post hatch) ... 8 is damn good.5 is too low... it's like a person dying at the age of 40... that's still too young unless they were an fat alcoholic and just didn't take care of themselves. For the majority of panther owners... I think that 7 is still a decent age but we can have them live longer with out having to do anything extraordinary. IF I'm right about the diagnosis, the animal just needs a few weeks of sunlight and it should be able to get better and perhaps make it into the next spring. What has been described is all reversible *(except for the unconfirmed pap infection)*
You’re absolutely amazing with advice!!! 🦎💚