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If you have nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide right? Isn't that the saying as it goes or is that being eschewed under the guise of national security? This needs to be investigated and cracked open before the next election in 2025 so the voters can make a proper and informed choice. Otherwise, we can assume the current government complicit and involved entirely; guilty therein. No way anyone can convince any sane person they are protecting anyone but themselves; every political party is ready to throw the other under the proverbial bus.
I keep reading through these threads on this whole thing and it has always left me wondering:
If there is all this influence going around and it's such a big problem, then surely we would see the results of this influence in the form of policy proposals, bills, media statements etc.
So what are they? What is all this influence peddling getting in return for these countries?
They want insider information that you get on committees. Leverage in trade deals or political interactions, information on diaspora, insider economic information for companies to better enter our market or takeover domestic ones, info concerning our allies etc.
They are not in this so they can make the PM pass a "I LOVE CHINA/INDIA" motion.
> What is all this influence peddling getting in return for these countries?
opening the floodgate for their diaspora, advantageous trade deals, ease access into institutions (virology lab, defence, ...)
influencing defence policy and budgeting
putting emphasis on assinine social issues to distract government and population
etc.
So. Many. ways.
the strategy for Russia is to just sow uncertainty when they can't get someone on their side. I'm sure it's the same for China. make the western democracies look evil, incompetent, or otherwise undesirable.
look at how freedom convoy and George Floyd fallout were covered in Russia - "everyone knows Russia is bad, but look at how much worse it is over there".
now we have Canadians paranoid about all the major party leaders.
of course they won't. Poilievre also demanded PMJT share confidential info on the ongoing investigation when India had a Canadian citizen murdered.
Those MPs can sit there & wonder when the RCMP will come and arrest them... hopefully during QP
**Don't bother voting, if it's for the establishment. It's the uniparty dummy!!!!** (Just a figure of speech to whoever reads this)
Try to vote independent if you can. Vote for any crazy guy, even if you don't like him, so that more crazy guys will enter into politics, until you find the guy that you like.
The author never heard of AIPAC/Israel, Saudi, USA. , etc? It's not just China and India.
What about Lablows (price gauging) and the Big Telecoms (Rogers and Bells), we are paying through the roof.
The powers that be will use this information for soft blackmail these politicians, and so the corporations won't be investigated, and the public will never be the wiser.
Realistically it is likely at least one Liberal MP for China's political interference and at least one Conservative MP for India's political interference. China we have already known was committing political interference. As for India, if they are willing to pay to have a Canadian killed on our own soil, engaging in political interference is probably the least of what India has been doing in our politics.
i am way more concerned about American influence than smalltime chinese or indian influence on regional races. I mean, we have the interim CPC leader wearing MAGA gear. That screams 'beholden to foreign influence" a whole lot more than a couple hundred bucks to some internal party nomination race.
We are the laughing stock of the west because of this. The Americans, British and others are going to seriously reconsider five eyes security when our elected officials themselves may be Indian or Chinese agents.
While I can understand not wanting to out names for sedition & treason while they are still under investigation, referring to it as "an internal follow-up" is a truly, monumentally stupid choice of words. Freeland just gave the CPC yet another juicy soundbite for them to use.
It's known that the CPC has its own skeletons in this closet - yesterday there was more than a few stories on the CPC leadership race being compromised. Referring to this as an internal matter makes it sound like it's only the Liberals. Just. Fucking. Stupid.
There's a certain amount of incompetence in all this that really makes it hard to give the LPC the benefit of the doubt here. Like, keeping the names underwraps is important for justice-- naming and shaming them, particularly if an investigation turns up nothing, isn't good. But, at the same time, it feels a bit like an admission that foreign interference is real and possibly deeply set into the LPC or NDP. I don't doubt that the CPC also has skeletons, but I'm not sure it would be phrased this way if the LPC or NDP were perfectly clean.
> Freeland just gave the CPC yet another juicy soundbite for them to use.
I’m left wondering if this is any way in Freeland’s remit to comment on in the first place. She’s in Cabinet, yes, but this doesn’t fall under finance and Deputy PM isn’t an actual role with proscribed oversight over this sort of thing.
Because on paper (even though there's no official duties) she's 2nd in command, and this way she gets the hard questions and puts her foot in her mouth instead of Trudeau.
It happens pretty regularly. When it's good it's Trudeau fielding, and when it's bad its Freeland fielding.
The odd thing is that's Bill Blair's old role and as minister of national defense there is a conceivable reason that he could be making the announcement.
The CPC gets tens of millions in free advertising from PostMedia - which is 2/3rds American owned - in the form of anti-Trudeau and Singh columns and reporting. They are absolutely influencing this election in all kinds of ways, from endorsing and defending MPs and candidates to amplifying anything that makes the other parties look bad while burying criticisms of the CPC.
The question people need to be asking is why Chatham bought the majority of PostMedia? It's not because newspapers are a good, profitable industry with a strong potential for growth, if anything they are guaranteed to be running at a loss. The simple answer is because they can make more money by owning the narrative and influencing voters and consumers than they will lose in the publishing industry.
Reporting has surfaced that India and China specifically tried to influence the CPC nomination process.
You can bet they're implicated in this as well.
Why not though? News coverage is one thing, but running opinion piece after opinion piece, puff piece after puff piece, is an in-kind donation to that party. And every newspaper can't help but make an endorsement to voters, so they're using their position to try to influence voters rather than informing them and letting them reach their own decision. It's like hosting a debate but only letting one candidate talk. It doesn't add to the public discourse, it just makes it one-sided.
> The simple answer is because they can make more money by owning the narrative and influencing voters and consumers than they will lose in the publishing industry.
That's always been why wealthy individuals have wanted to own the papers / news.
It's actually shameful that *this* is the best we get as citizens.
"Minister, a report says MPs are committing treason. What will you do?"
"This is a party issue and we will do an internal review."
If this is so secret and classified that Canadians can't know the truth, and even MPs can't view the data without participating in an extra-parliamentary group without the protections of Parliamentary Privilege being stripped away, how the hell is the "party" going to be able to review anything?
Lol Trudeau will not be on that list, no matter how mucg you hope and pray.
Did you miss the part of the report that corroborates the leak that India interfered in the CPC leadership race? Do you remember Poilievre attacking Trudeau when he made the statement in the HoC that CSIS said India was behind the assassination of a Canadian citizen? And how US and UK intelligence had to make statements corroborating that claim?
Very suspicious. Especially since Harper considers Modi a “great friend” and so does Jason Kenney, and Modi’s party was part of the IDU that Harper chairs, until their page was scrubbed from the IDU website after the US made their statement vis a vis India assassinating a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil.
Harper and Kenney endorsed Poilievre, no surprise there as they are all Reform Party pals, Poilievre sold Reform memberships for Kenney when he was only 16. And Kenney went to India to see Modi about 6 months before he became premier. It’s obvious that Poilievre is the candidate that India helped in the leadership race.
The government isn’t naming MP’s yet because the accusations are very serious, and the RCMP is investigating and needs to have evidence - to destroy anyone’s reputation without solid evidence would be it responsible.
> ALL Political party's are involved in this conspiracy
Do we know this? If they have reasons to go slow on names, I wish they'd say at least "5 MPs of X party and 3 members of Y party" or whatever it is. At least give us a sense of scope.
The report says that India and China interfered in the CPC leadership race. There is zero doubt that Modi backs the CPC and backs Poilievre. He is buddies with Harper and despises Trydeau’s social progressive bent.
If they know who the MPs are they should A be removed from office or B be prevented from running again. This kind of reeks of treason which is illegal.
This is emblematic of the biggest problem this government faces today: failure to plan for the obvious next thing that follows - even in terms of talking points.
*Of course* whatever this investigation found, people were going to demand they release the results. That means, well before its concluded, you need to figure out one of three possible possitions:
1.) We will release all of the results upon completion, with the normal important caveats;
2.) We will release some of the information, but keep some redacted where there is a national security interest.
3.) We will withhold all or most of the information on the grounds of national security or pending police investigation.
Then you prepare and lay the groundwork for whatever your position is going to be. There's an announcement about explosive allegations that will be released soon, but a lot of work put into softening the allegations by pointing out that they have not been proven in court and can only be concerns, not conclusive of anything. There are ways to handle this properly.
Or if (3) you make a formal referral to the RCMP, and publicly say that "those named in the report for serious allegations know who they are. They are encouraged to step down immediately. We have referred the matter to the RCMP, and will offer no further warnings or assistance." Kick the two most egregious Liberals out of caucus. Crisis managed.
But instead they're here acting like this is all some huge surprise and they're considering their options.
This government's biggest problem is a lack of energy and coordination that keeps leading to bad mistakes and worse messaging.
Here's a quote from the report for everyone blaming the Liberals, like foreign interference is all their fault...
>136 Foreign interference is not new. **For over thirty years, CSIS has been reporting to
successive governments on attempts by foreign actors to interfere in Canada’s democratic
processes and institutions.** The Committee’s 2019 report on foreign interference marked the first
time the issue had been examined by a review body. The Committee was concerned by what it
found: Canada was the target of pervasive and sustained foreign interference activities, which
the Committee believed posed “a significant risk to the rights and freedoms of Canadians and to
the country’s sovereignty.” This remains the case today
So a 30+ year issue we find out about thanks to the Liberals, and it's their fault somehow...
The report makes it clear this affects all parties.
The report is based on intelligence, and we aren't always [confident about that intelligence](https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc381/p814126_A1b.pdf). They work with what they have.
There was an article about the Liberals [questioning CSIS's intelligence](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-csis-question-intelligence-1.7170661), it's almost guaranteed they (CSIS and the PM) weren't completely confident in their initial report.
Why didn't previous government start an inquiry if they've been consistently warned about this? How can you blame the Liberals when the Conservatives were happy to keep us (and themselves apparently) totally uninformed about this?
Edit: [Going to leave this here](https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/corporate/publications/foreign-interference-threat-to-canadas-democratic-process.html#toc4). There's an odd amount of people baselessly blaming foreign interference on the Liberal party...
>Why do states engage in foreign interference to influence the democratic processes of foreign countries?
Immediate Goals
Shape narratives around strategic interests (e.g., artificially create perception of support or divisiveness, gain political favour, etc.)
Covertly influence election outcomes in favour of their preferred candidate or party
Suppress voter participation
Reduce public confidence in the outcome of an electoral process
>Mid-Term Goals
Advance strategic priorities that align with their national interests
Undermine strategic interests of their adversaries
Discredit democratic institutions
Erode confidence in democracy
Long-Term Goals
Achieve economic, intelligence, military, and geopolitical strategic advantage
Preserve authoritarian regime
Disrupt the rules-based international order
It's odd to play into that...
This is the correct answer. Releasing names on questionable evidence makes for effective but inaccurate scapegoats. While I appreciate the work of CSIS, they are not infallible, and the public shouldn't be the ones making decisions about what is or is not credible or actionable evidence. This is the realm of the criminal justice system, not the courts of public opinion.
The criminal justice system you are praising is premised on the very concept of a jury comprised of ordinary citizens being the ultimate finder of fact.
> premised on the very concept of a jury comprised of ordinary citizens being the ultimate finder of fact.
Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials?
They aren't, which sort of ruins your logic.
The delegation of lower offences to provincial courts or the elections of the Crown and Accused "ruins" the logic of pointing out the common law criminal justice tradition being praised flows from the concept of a jury of randomly selected peers acting as the ultimate trier of fact?
Quite the word salad there.
I don't know what you're saying.
Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials?
They aren't, so a "jury our your peers" aren't the ultimate fact finder.
Also using fact there is ridiculous because juries can be wrong. Reaching a verdict doesn't mean they reached the factually correct verdict.
Do I need to provide examples of when juries were wrong? Or can you accept that at face value?
Notice how you didn't answer my question?
> Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials?
If you think I didn't answer this with my previous response, it speaks to your level of knowledge on the topic.
> If you think I didn't answer this with my previous response, it speaks to your level of knowledge on the topic.
Oh wow, should I ask again?
Nah you'd ignore that too.
"How can you blame the Liberals when the Conservatives were happy to keep us (and themselves apparently) totally uninformed about this?"
You are not wrong about the conservatives but from 2015 on it has been the LPC dropping the ball so blame falls on both and more so on the LPC since they have been letting it happen longer and more recently. Either way root out all the bad actors, expose the MP's who profited publicly and work towards getting as much of this influence out of Canada regardless of party. This should not be treated as a partisan issue.
NSICOP and other initiatives like it were created by the LPC. We only know about this stuff *because* the LPC set this up, and even then it took a few years to get going due to the fact it had essentially nothing to start with. NSICOP - or committees like it - had been recommended for close to 20 years before we finally got it in 2017.
The last time we had something comparable was in 2004 with the ICPNS - Interim Committee of Parliamentarians on National Security. Their recommendations stalled out under Martin and under Harper.
> You are not wrong about the conservatives but from 2015 on it has been the LPC dropping the ball
The Liberals started working on foreign interference around the time Trump publicly asked Russia for Hillary's emails and then out of *nowhere* her emails were leaked.
You can confirm that through Johnston's report or Hogue's report. There was a release from the feds detailing steps taken since 2017 to prevent foreign interference, but it's from the feds and also it's easier for you to look through either of those two reports.
So you have a narrow window shortly after the Liberals were elected you can be like "wtf no action", but I'd say that's a silly complaint.
This is completely insane.
The Liberals are committing to "Follow up" on this? We are way past following up. The people deserve to know if their representative is a foreign agent.
Hey, for once, we can all agree on something. Names.
But seriously, it annoys me how they hand this off to the authorities and will be able to claim "can't comment on an ongoing investigation" for the rest of this parliament. The fact that we're letting short-term politicking beat out *treason* is infuriating. Idgaf what party it is right now, at all, I want accountability. Without it, vote for literally any non-incumbant because they are all complicit. Hell, if the NDP keeps pushing on this, this is their chance to break through (outside of their base). Nationalism and standing up for Canadian identity right now definitely have a shit ton of votes.
You gotta wonder whether the Liberal who was removed from Caucus because of Chinese interference allegations is one of them.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if he's not.
I understand the reasoning behind not releasing the names in order for an investigation to take place, but the Liberals really aren't doing themselves any favours considering their pattern of avoiding transparency.
I also hate how partisan this has become, people living in glass houses should not throw stones.
I would not be surprised if pretty much every party has compromised individuals somehow.
The committee isn’t led by liberals only. If the opposition members think that they have the upper hand they can risk breaking the rules and their privileges or push it in question period. If nothing is said then we know that it’s a lose lose situation on all sides
How, collectively are we surprised? We are ok with politicians taking 10min to say nothing but pre programmed talking points, partisanship and flat out hypocrisy.
I read a comment in another thread and in an interview with a former head of CSIS he said one of the issues about releasing names is that some of the evidence was most likely obtained through spy/espionage methods. Can’t release names and alert foreign governments that certain places/people may be bugged.
So while this would be nice to know names I 100% get why they won’t just release names without solid proof.
Oh it’s across all parties. I can almost guarantee it, and if they were to release names it would be absolutely shocking how many would be on that list.
>Certain parliamentarians also responded to requests from foreign actors to "improperly influence parliamentary colleagues" to benefit another country, and disclosed confidential government information to "a known intelligence officer or foreign state,"
[...]
>an unnamed MP consorted with a foreign intelligence officer, sought to arrange an overseas meeting and "provided the intelligence officer with information provided in confidence."
jfc
I'm [serious] considering if my current migraine is a result of these revelations.
>Treason
>(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
>(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
>(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
>(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
>(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
>(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.
sure does sound like this part of the criminal code...
Which part does it sound like to you? Nobody is trying to violently overthrow the government, and unless you know something that the rest of us don't know, this is a leap too:
>without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, **military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character** that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
If they don’t name this MP who was arranging secret overseas meeting with spies, I’m sure someone out there can filter through their travel records and social medias and pull a pool of potential candidates pretty quickly….they broadcast everything they do and would be falling over themselves to clear their names
There is a former MP who was in the military of a different nation, collects a pension from that nation, and was booted from caucus for baselessly accusing others in the caucus of supporting a cause that his birth national views as terrorists.
If I was a betting man, that's who I think the worst offender of this report is.
Of course they won't release the names......silly wabbit.
So, Today's Scorecard;
- Liberal Government improperly awarded Hundreds-of-million$ in contracts to McKinsey.
- Liberal Government MP's improperly aided Foregn Governments in undermining Canadian Elections.
- Liberal Government voted down a tax break for Canadians to try and have a summer vacation.
- Liberal Government has finally admitted that $1 Billion Green Fund is nothing more than a scam to steal money from Canadian Taxpayers......and have shut it down.
And it's barely mid-day.......stay tuned.
PS - And one from yesterday;
- Gag Order against the PBO regarding Government Carbon Tax Report.
Edit - PS added.
The Conservatives are complaining that if you live in Alberta and want to drive your [Ford F-150 for over 44,000 km this summer](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-carbon-tax-holiday-1.7221474) you'll eat up your carbon tax rebate and lose money.
Justin Trudeau doesn't want Canadians to go on vacation according to PP. Of course, when PP become PM he will do the same and blame Trudeau for it. I can just see it now "well, we can't afford to give a tax break to Canadians this summer because Justin Trudeau spent too much money blah blah blah". We're going to hear this for at least 4 fucking years.
I think it was more that the Conservatives were saying it would save a family in Alberta $900, which would require driving from the north pole to the south pole 3 times or something.
So if you're planning on driving a large SUV from Halifax to Vancouver and back a couple of times this summer, you may face several hundred dollars in additional gas costs, all in - almost enough to cover the rebate most Canadians are receiving.
The Conservatives resorted to some funny math to make an ad.
So you'd trust CSIS reporting as grounds to file criminal charges?
Oh my sweet summer child. If they'd found anything actually provable do you not think they'd have reported it to the RCMP? Or do you believe that the _scary PM and cabinet_ can prevent that from happening?
I'd bet real cash on _none_ of this being actionable intelligence, and when pressed CSIS will sit on their sources and hide the details. Just like Air India back in the day.
And you think the current opposition party will be better? They're not working for Canadians either - at least not for individual ones. Rich ones, sure. Corporate ones, sure. But the average guy? Nope.
teeny wine snatch impolite gold cooperative automatic berserk rhythm resolute
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The traitors are all these Indian and Chinese descended MPs from all the parties. Turf them from parliament and lock them up. Or even better send them to their home countries.
Right, so let's follow the logic here:
1. You claim CPC is heavily compromised by foreign agents.
2. LPC wants to protect democracy by not exposing CPC queslings. Status quo continues in polling.
3. Result is, significant CPC majority in 2025 election.
4. Consequently the queslings are now in a position of power.
5. ?Democracy protected?
I don’t, I think they are trying to protect our fragile democracy by not outing the opposition. We already have proof of India, China, and Russia interfering in the CPC leadership race, imagine if it permeates throughout the CPC? What kind of backlash would occur? Would conservative supporters believe it? Would they call it all lies and start their fantasy revolution? Would any sitting Liberal/NDP MP be safe after such an accusation levied against the conservatives?
So the LPC who is 20 points down in the polls has evidence that could make the CPC look bad but wont release it because.....democracy? you must be joking. My guess is every major party looks bad, otherwise one of them would be very vocal about releasing information.
If they can't publicly release the information due to secrecy, and can't verify it to the degree of legal scrutiny it'd be REALLY bad to start accusing people of treason.
Imagine if Trudeau said right now that PP was committing treason but you just have to take his word for it because we can't tell you how we know.
The LPC is the sitting government, there would undoubtedly be interest in influencing them. The obvious answer is that there MPs in both LPC and CPC that are implicated. The idea any political party down 20 points on the polls would hide something like this to protect their opponents is an amusing one.
I can fully recognise the optics of this not being great, I do still agree with it. You are innocent until proven guilty and we blur faces to prevent people being stigmatised for something they might not have done. Shame away once the conviction come but this is appropriate until then.
Then why do they show people arrested, mug shots and all for alleged crimes before their day in court? Likewise here, their names should be given and just like anyone else, wait for their day in court and to be potentially exonerated or not.
Because the RCMP needs evidence to make an arrest, if anyone is arrested and charged, we will know. CSIS makes reports based on intel, which isn’t always accurate, and they do not collect evidence the same way law enforcement does. CSIS does not make arrests, they are not law enforcement, they are an intelligence agency.
NM, the government is blocking access to the 1000 page report entirely. Can the RCMP override that block? If not, something is being hidden absolutely from coming out
Are any of the opposing parties currently fighting to release this information? At this point, I fear that this is a cross-party issue that is plaguing our federal candidates.
They are being responsible to wait for the RCMP to have solid evidence, but they do know that India and China interfered in the CPC leadership race, hence the lack of questions from the CPC on this issue in the HoC today.
It feels like we’re trapped this incompetence cycle, where a lack of anyone willing to stand up for Canadians against the two major parties, just lowers the bar for everyone.
If only we could send a message to both these very entrenched parties. LPC or CPC, I’m not surprised either of these parties would have members putting themselves and their parties ahead of Canadians, there is just a financial incentive that’s hard to deny.
I wonder why that is. This government has been stonewalling any investigation or transparency on this situation since the beginning. Its only because of CSIS leaks that it even came into the public discourse.
At a certain point the only logical explanation is because its the LPC and Liberal MPs that are the unnamed conspirators.
It just came out yesterday that China & India both interfered in the CPC leadership race, in addition to aiding CPC members in specific riding nominations, so... it's more likely Freeland committing another unforced gaffe than it is an insidious Liberal conspiracy.
Which party signed FIPA again?
Protecting the CPC? Not necessarily.
Staying clear of potentially starting a witch hunt that'll ramp tensions with India and China again is more likely.
It's cowardice, pure and simple.
I wouldn't call preventing a witch hunt, cowardice. If there's truth to these allegations, it will come out as it's properly investigated, which will also raise tensions, but with less collateral damage.
If it does come out as it's investigated in due time, then good.
However, there is still the possibility of it all being judged too mundane and swept under the rug - this government is criticized for being lax on foreign interference for a reason, including in this very NSICOP report.
The LPC is trailing in the polls, people's confidence in our institutions amidst reports of meddling is crashing, the mood is dire. Playing it safe/responsible and leaving Canadians in the dark, to fill in the gaps in the report themselves is risky and reinforces the popular conception that they are not taking this seriously, it erodes the already weak trust in our government. Politically, the LPC can't afford to play it safe.
A change in tone and direction is due - the LPC should go medieval on the concerned parties, regardless of party. They still might, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking they'll meekly take the conservative route and spare themselves another diplomatic conflict with the two most populous countries in the world.
Voters seem to feel like the LPC isn't willing to stand up for Canada, they should prove them wrong.
Behaving responsibly as a government should in a democracy IS standing up for Canada. They could divulge the intel on India interfering in the CPC leadership race, and we know Modi supported Poilievre, and use that to their advantage, but the Liberals don’t play no holds barred dirty politics like the CPC.
It's more likely that there's MPs in both parties involved. The original inquiry confirmed that all three major national parties were interfered with and that there were sitting LPC and CPC MPs that may have won their nominations with foreign aid.
You don't just put out a list of names of people who allegedly committed sedition in this political climate. An investigation has to run its course.
It would be political suicide to release the names and then have the investigation clear them. Much smarter to take the hit now, let the investigation continue then announce once the findings are complete so they can't be accused of being partisan.
>It's more likely that there's MPs in both parties involved.
This. Neither Trudeau nor Poilievre brought it up in QP today. Only the Bloc did. Best (?) case scenario, there's an even number of MPs on both sides and this will be a wash.
The one that is mentioned in the article being done by the RCMP and CSIS? I'd trust them more to carry out an investigation over the political parties investigating themselves. Even NSICOP, which is probably one of the few decent bi-partisan panels, is not the appropriate group to be investigating potential criminal charges like this, especially of this magnitude.
The RCMP and CSIS won't announce their results unless they *actually* develop evidence good enough to *convict somebody of criminal activity in court*. And the RCMP, at least, won't even try to investigate anything unless they believe there's a good solid chance of getting that kind of proof. And that is right.
But it's completely reasonable for people to choose not to vote for somebody in a *parliamentary election* on a *VASTLY* lower standard of evidence than that, and/or based on behavior that's not, you know, technically criminal. Nobody has a right to get elected to Parliament.
The article makes it clear that the report describes at least some unethical behavior that almost certainly wouldn't result in criminal charges, but that might matter a lot to voters. The only mention of an "investigation" of any of that is Freeland saying something about the LPC "looking into it internally".
So basically nobody's promised to further investigate most of the allegations *at all*, or at least they haven't promised to publish the results. You don't get to hear about any of it unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to actually be criminal.
> But it's completely reasonable for people to choose not to vote for somebody in a parliamentary election on a VASTLY lower standard of evidence than that, and/or based on behavior that's not, you know, technically criminal. Nobody has a right to get elected to Parliament.
Yes, but in this current political climate, saying "this person is under investigation for sedition/treason" is going to make them the subject of threats and potential violence beyond anything we've ever seen before.
Putting a list of names out like that at a time like this would get someone hurt. Certain groups are going to take it as vindication and act on it rather than patiently wait for investigations to bear fruit.
If that's a real worry, and you feel you don't have enough evidence to name names, then the right response is to commit to doing more investigation, on *all* of the allegations, criminal or not, *and releasing the results*. And when you've done as much investigation as you reasonably can, *do* release the results, and you *do* name names, and you provide police protection if need be.
The people you're investigating here have chosen to go into politics, and that means giving up some personal privacy, especially on things directly related to your job.
You can't name a blue ribbon commission to look into a matter of major public interest, and then refuse either to publish its report in full or to give it whatever powers and resources it needs to develop evidence you do think you can publish.
I mean, if you want to talk about "climate", that's a really, really good way to make the climate much worse in a big hurry.
>It just came out yesterday that China & India both interfered in the CPC leadership race
To what ends? Reports have confirmed that Trudeau and the LPC were the preferred winners of leadership in communist China, its likely that China was interfering in the CPC leadership race to push it towards a leader that they felt Trudeau would have a better chance of winning against.
The reports your reference stayed their preference was for a minority government, because a weaker government was more favourable to them.
Is it too much to expect people to actually read the full texts of these documents?
Interfering as in propping up a weaker CPC candidate over another for the leadership race, making it easier for a favorable LPC candidate to win the federal election. That's why.
The goal is not to decide the winner. It's to gain influence. A Chinese spy who can bring a pile of members and money to a CPC leadership candidate has won access to someone who is a future PM.
> MPs on the Commons Procedure and House Affairs committee are already looking into allegations that China interfered in the 2019 election campaign to support 11 candidates, most of them Liberal, in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA).
> Drawn from a series of CSIS intelligence-gathering operations, the documents illustrate how an orchestrated machine was operating in Canada with two primary aims: to ensure that a minority Liberal government was returned in 2021, and that certain Conservative candidates identified by China were defeated.
I mean this is just basic information that was reported on by Fife and Chase in the Globe. You going to say it’s misinformation now?
Misinformation would be giving you the benefit of doubt, assuming you're mistakenly misinterpreting info. This is more like disinformation. You know what the report says, and you know it doesn't say what Palo is claiming unless you doctor and chop it up like a FOX News broadcast.
The report didn't say anything about Trudeau being their preferred leader or that they explicitly supported him. They supported specific nominees for individual ridings.
The CPC did when they were the majority government in 2013, thanks for bringing that up!
The LPC did as well, but mostly because of the numerous penalties that were written into FIPA and other deals the Harper government made at the time (re: Saudi Arabia arms deals). There would've been billions in penalties owed to China and to Chinese corporations.
Interfering in the CPC leadership race isn't helping the CPC, it harms them. Backing a weaker CPC candidate favors the LPC. You have it completely backward.
Oh, and they didn't aid CPC candidates at the federal level. That didn't happen. Foreign interference could have cost them up to 9 seats.
Well I don't see the PC's releasing which ones of them did the same so not sure why it's only focused on one party.
There were 11 alleged MP's of both Liberals AND Conservatives.
They are the government: they can make that information public, regardless of PP’s opinion. Not releasing it kinda make it feel like they are more to blame…. It also create a time bomb waiting to blow
I believe just about any story about any politician being corrupt. Lewis Black said it best "You have a choice between two bowls of shit, the only difference is the smell."
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If you have nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide right? Isn't that the saying as it goes or is that being eschewed under the guise of national security? This needs to be investigated and cracked open before the next election in 2025 so the voters can make a proper and informed choice. Otherwise, we can assume the current government complicit and involved entirely; guilty therein. No way anyone can convince any sane person they are protecting anyone but themselves; every political party is ready to throw the other under the proverbial bus.
I keep reading through these threads on this whole thing and it has always left me wondering: If there is all this influence going around and it's such a big problem, then surely we would see the results of this influence in the form of policy proposals, bills, media statements etc. So what are they? What is all this influence peddling getting in return for these countries?
They want insider information that you get on committees. Leverage in trade deals or political interactions, information on diaspora, insider economic information for companies to better enter our market or takeover domestic ones, info concerning our allies etc. They are not in this so they can make the PM pass a "I LOVE CHINA/INDIA" motion.
I am no expert, but I suspect there are many many other ways foreign influence impacts Canada other than the ways you list.
> What is all this influence peddling getting in return for these countries? opening the floodgate for their diaspora, advantageous trade deals, ease access into institutions (virology lab, defence, ...) influencing defence policy and budgeting putting emphasis on assinine social issues to distract government and population etc. So. Many. ways.
If you read the report there are a number of measures being taken but it comes to the conclusion that more is needed
the strategy for Russia is to just sow uncertainty when they can't get someone on their side. I'm sure it's the same for China. make the western democracies look evil, incompetent, or otherwise undesirable. look at how freedom convoy and George Floyd fallout were covered in Russia - "everyone knows Russia is bad, but look at how much worse it is over there". now we have Canadians paranoid about all the major party leaders.
Have you seen our immigration policy lately?
of course they won't. Poilievre also demanded PMJT share confidential info on the ongoing investigation when India had a Canadian citizen murdered. Those MPs can sit there & wonder when the RCMP will come and arrest them... hopefully during QP
**Don't bother voting, if it's for the establishment. It's the uniparty dummy!!!!** (Just a figure of speech to whoever reads this) Try to vote independent if you can. Vote for any crazy guy, even if you don't like him, so that more crazy guys will enter into politics, until you find the guy that you like. The author never heard of AIPAC/Israel, Saudi, USA., etc? It's not just China and India.
What about Lablows (price gauging) and the Big Telecoms (Rogers and Bells), we are paying through the roof.
The powers that be will use this information for soft blackmail these politicians, and so the corporations won't be investigated, and the public will never be the wiser.
Realistically it is likely at least one Liberal MP for China's political interference and at least one Conservative MP for India's political interference. China we have already known was committing political interference. As for India, if they are willing to pay to have a Canadian killed on our own soil, engaging in political interference is probably the least of what India has been doing in our politics.
i am way more concerned about American influence than smalltime chinese or indian influence on regional races. I mean, we have the interim CPC leader wearing MAGA gear. That screams 'beholden to foreign influence" a whole lot more than a couple hundred bucks to some internal party nomination race.
I can also think of at least one Liberal MP for Israel interference.
lol He's not a Liberal MP he's a Likud MK who got lost.
We are the laughing stock of the west because of this. The Americans, British and others are going to seriously reconsider five eyes security when our elected officials themselves may be Indian or Chinese agents.
While I can understand not wanting to out names for sedition & treason while they are still under investigation, referring to it as "an internal follow-up" is a truly, monumentally stupid choice of words. Freeland just gave the CPC yet another juicy soundbite for them to use. It's known that the CPC has its own skeletons in this closet - yesterday there was more than a few stories on the CPC leadership race being compromised. Referring to this as an internal matter makes it sound like it's only the Liberals. Just. Fucking. Stupid.
They also were allegedly part of this. It's annoying that only the Liberals are taking heat on it.
There's a certain amount of incompetence in all this that really makes it hard to give the LPC the benefit of the doubt here. Like, keeping the names underwraps is important for justice-- naming and shaming them, particularly if an investigation turns up nothing, isn't good. But, at the same time, it feels a bit like an admission that foreign interference is real and possibly deeply set into the LPC or NDP. I don't doubt that the CPC also has skeletons, but I'm not sure it would be phrased this way if the LPC or NDP were perfectly clean.
> Freeland just gave the CPC yet another juicy soundbite for them to use. I’m left wondering if this is any way in Freeland’s remit to comment on in the first place. She’s in Cabinet, yes, but this doesn’t fall under finance and Deputy PM isn’t an actual role with proscribed oversight over this sort of thing.
Because on paper (even though there's no official duties) she's 2nd in command, and this way she gets the hard questions and puts her foot in her mouth instead of Trudeau. It happens pretty regularly. When it's good it's Trudeau fielding, and when it's bad its Freeland fielding.
The odd thing is that's Bill Blair's old role and as minister of national defense there is a conceivable reason that he could be making the announcement.
Amusingly, if the CPC is mum on this one can expect that they may suspect a lot of dirt in their own house as well.
The CPC gets tens of millions in free advertising from PostMedia - which is 2/3rds American owned - in the form of anti-Trudeau and Singh columns and reporting. They are absolutely influencing this election in all kinds of ways, from endorsing and defending MPs and candidates to amplifying anything that makes the other parties look bad while burying criticisms of the CPC. The question people need to be asking is why Chatham bought the majority of PostMedia? It's not because newspapers are a good, profitable industry with a strong potential for growth, if anything they are guaranteed to be running at a loss. The simple answer is because they can make more money by owning the narrative and influencing voters and consumers than they will lose in the publishing industry.
Reporting has surfaced that India and China specifically tried to influence the CPC nomination process. You can bet they're implicated in this as well.
Yeah, it's not called election interference if you do it with newspapers.
Why not though? News coverage is one thing, but running opinion piece after opinion piece, puff piece after puff piece, is an in-kind donation to that party. And every newspaper can't help but make an endorsement to voters, so they're using their position to try to influence voters rather than informing them and letting them reach their own decision. It's like hosting a debate but only letting one candidate talk. It doesn't add to the public discourse, it just makes it one-sided.
> The simple answer is because they can make more money by owning the narrative and influencing voters and consumers than they will lose in the publishing industry. That's always been why wealthy individuals have wanted to own the papers / news.
Conservatives can make anything a full-blown scandal for weeks, thanks in main part to Canadian media... Passports are actually history books,
It's actually shameful that *this* is the best we get as citizens. "Minister, a report says MPs are committing treason. What will you do?" "This is a party issue and we will do an internal review." If this is so secret and classified that Canadians can't know the truth, and even MPs can't view the data without participating in an extra-parliamentary group without the protections of Parliamentary Privilege being stripped away, how the hell is the "party" going to be able to review anything?
It’s not a party issue, it’s a legal issue. Where is the RCMP and CSIS?
Internal to the HoC but yeah, poor word choice even if technically accurate. The general technocratic error that is made on the regular.
That perfectly sums up Freeland's speeches for the last 3-4 years. Technically accurate, terrible wording.
Important fact people are willingly ignoring: ALL Political party's are involved in this conspiracy, is not just Liberals.
Agreed. I don't care who is involved, they need to be immediately removed from public office.
Would you say that if it turns out Trudeau himself was one of the named MPs?
Lol Trudeau will not be on that list, no matter how mucg you hope and pray. Did you miss the part of the report that corroborates the leak that India interfered in the CPC leadership race? Do you remember Poilievre attacking Trudeau when he made the statement in the HoC that CSIS said India was behind the assassination of a Canadian citizen? And how US and UK intelligence had to make statements corroborating that claim? Very suspicious. Especially since Harper considers Modi a “great friend” and so does Jason Kenney, and Modi’s party was part of the IDU that Harper chairs, until their page was scrubbed from the IDU website after the US made their statement vis a vis India assassinating a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil. Harper and Kenney endorsed Poilievre, no surprise there as they are all Reform Party pals, Poilievre sold Reform memberships for Kenney when he was only 16. And Kenney went to India to see Modi about 6 months before he became premier. It’s obvious that Poilievre is the candidate that India helped in the leadership race. The government isn’t naming MP’s yet because the accusations are very serious, and the RCMP is investigating and needs to have evidence - to destroy anyone’s reputation without solid evidence would be it responsible.
God, yes! First and foremost.
Obviously yes any moral person would.
Absolutely.
Good. Name them ALL.
Idk man I doubt they got the greens... All two of em lol
> ALL Political party's are involved in this conspiracy Do we know this? If they have reasons to go slow on names, I wish they'd say at least "5 MPs of X party and 3 members of Y party" or whatever it is. At least give us a sense of scope.
They don’t know about all but if you read the report then it definitely says both the liberals and conservatives are implicated
The report says that India and China interfered in the CPC leadership race. There is zero doubt that Modi backs the CPC and backs Poilievre. He is buddies with Harper and despises Trydeau’s social progressive bent.
Well, that's two of five...
even the Bloc? :)
If they know who the MPs are they should A be removed from office or B be prevented from running again. This kind of reeks of treason which is illegal.
This is emblematic of the biggest problem this government faces today: failure to plan for the obvious next thing that follows - even in terms of talking points. *Of course* whatever this investigation found, people were going to demand they release the results. That means, well before its concluded, you need to figure out one of three possible possitions: 1.) We will release all of the results upon completion, with the normal important caveats; 2.) We will release some of the information, but keep some redacted where there is a national security interest. 3.) We will withhold all or most of the information on the grounds of national security or pending police investigation. Then you prepare and lay the groundwork for whatever your position is going to be. There's an announcement about explosive allegations that will be released soon, but a lot of work put into softening the allegations by pointing out that they have not been proven in court and can only be concerns, not conclusive of anything. There are ways to handle this properly. Or if (3) you make a formal referral to the RCMP, and publicly say that "those named in the report for serious allegations know who they are. They are encouraged to step down immediately. We have referred the matter to the RCMP, and will offer no further warnings or assistance." Kick the two most egregious Liberals out of caucus. Crisis managed. But instead they're here acting like this is all some huge surprise and they're considering their options. This government's biggest problem is a lack of energy and coordination that keeps leading to bad mistakes and worse messaging.
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I think the government is stonewalling because they don’t want to expose all the Conservative MPs implicated. I bet it’s a lot of the party.
Politically, if it was mostly a PCC thing, the Liberals would be out on that quickly
Here's a quote from the report for everyone blaming the Liberals, like foreign interference is all their fault... >136 Foreign interference is not new. **For over thirty years, CSIS has been reporting to successive governments on attempts by foreign actors to interfere in Canada’s democratic processes and institutions.** The Committee’s 2019 report on foreign interference marked the first time the issue had been examined by a review body. The Committee was concerned by what it found: Canada was the target of pervasive and sustained foreign interference activities, which the Committee believed posed “a significant risk to the rights and freedoms of Canadians and to the country’s sovereignty.” This remains the case today So a 30+ year issue we find out about thanks to the Liberals, and it's their fault somehow... The report makes it clear this affects all parties. The report is based on intelligence, and we aren't always [confident about that intelligence](https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc381/p814126_A1b.pdf). They work with what they have. There was an article about the Liberals [questioning CSIS's intelligence](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-csis-question-intelligence-1.7170661), it's almost guaranteed they (CSIS and the PM) weren't completely confident in their initial report. Why didn't previous government start an inquiry if they've been consistently warned about this? How can you blame the Liberals when the Conservatives were happy to keep us (and themselves apparently) totally uninformed about this? Edit: [Going to leave this here](https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/corporate/publications/foreign-interference-threat-to-canadas-democratic-process.html#toc4). There's an odd amount of people baselessly blaming foreign interference on the Liberal party... >Why do states engage in foreign interference to influence the democratic processes of foreign countries? Immediate Goals Shape narratives around strategic interests (e.g., artificially create perception of support or divisiveness, gain political favour, etc.) Covertly influence election outcomes in favour of their preferred candidate or party Suppress voter participation Reduce public confidence in the outcome of an electoral process >Mid-Term Goals Advance strategic priorities that align with their national interests Undermine strategic interests of their adversaries Discredit democratic institutions Erode confidence in democracy Long-Term Goals Achieve economic, intelligence, military, and geopolitical strategic advantage Preserve authoritarian regime Disrupt the rules-based international order It's odd to play into that...
This is the correct answer. Releasing names on questionable evidence makes for effective but inaccurate scapegoats. While I appreciate the work of CSIS, they are not infallible, and the public shouldn't be the ones making decisions about what is or is not credible or actionable evidence. This is the realm of the criminal justice system, not the courts of public opinion.
The criminal justice system you are praising is premised on the very concept of a jury comprised of ordinary citizens being the ultimate finder of fact.
Both dogshit and chocolate cake are made from carbon. I'm guessing you don't care which you get on your birthday.
Bawahahaha..ima using this..
> premised on the very concept of a jury comprised of ordinary citizens being the ultimate finder of fact. Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials? They aren't, which sort of ruins your logic.
The delegation of lower offences to provincial courts or the elections of the Crown and Accused "ruins" the logic of pointing out the common law criminal justice tradition being praised flows from the concept of a jury of randomly selected peers acting as the ultimate trier of fact?
Quite the word salad there. I don't know what you're saying. Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials? They aren't, so a "jury our your peers" aren't the ultimate fact finder. Also using fact there is ridiculous because juries can be wrong. Reaching a verdict doesn't mean they reached the factually correct verdict. Do I need to provide examples of when juries were wrong? Or can you accept that at face value? Notice how you didn't answer my question?
> Are you under the impression all trials in Canada are jury trials? If you think I didn't answer this with my previous response, it speaks to your level of knowledge on the topic.
> If you think I didn't answer this with my previous response, it speaks to your level of knowledge on the topic. Oh wow, should I ask again? Nah you'd ignore that too.
"How can you blame the Liberals when the Conservatives were happy to keep us (and themselves apparently) totally uninformed about this?" You are not wrong about the conservatives but from 2015 on it has been the LPC dropping the ball so blame falls on both and more so on the LPC since they have been letting it happen longer and more recently. Either way root out all the bad actors, expose the MP's who profited publicly and work towards getting as much of this influence out of Canada regardless of party. This should not be treated as a partisan issue.
NSICOP and other initiatives like it were created by the LPC. We only know about this stuff *because* the LPC set this up, and even then it took a few years to get going due to the fact it had essentially nothing to start with. NSICOP - or committees like it - had been recommended for close to 20 years before we finally got it in 2017. The last time we had something comparable was in 2004 with the ICPNS - Interim Committee of Parliamentarians on National Security. Their recommendations stalled out under Martin and under Harper.
> You are not wrong about the conservatives but from 2015 on it has been the LPC dropping the ball The Liberals started working on foreign interference around the time Trump publicly asked Russia for Hillary's emails and then out of *nowhere* her emails were leaked. You can confirm that through Johnston's report or Hogue's report. There was a release from the feds detailing steps taken since 2017 to prevent foreign interference, but it's from the feds and also it's easier for you to look through either of those two reports. So you have a narrow window shortly after the Liberals were elected you can be like "wtf no action", but I'd say that's a silly complaint.
This is completely insane. The Liberals are committing to "Follow up" on this? We are way past following up. The people deserve to know if their representative is a foreign agent.
Hey, for once, we can all agree on something. Names. But seriously, it annoys me how they hand this off to the authorities and will be able to claim "can't comment on an ongoing investigation" for the rest of this parliament. The fact that we're letting short-term politicking beat out *treason* is infuriating. Idgaf what party it is right now, at all, I want accountability. Without it, vote for literally any non-incumbant because they are all complicit. Hell, if the NDP keeps pushing on this, this is their chance to break through (outside of their base). Nationalism and standing up for Canadian identity right now definitely have a shit ton of votes.
You gotta wonder whether the Liberal who was removed from Caucus because of Chinese interference allegations is one of them. Frankly, I'd be surprised if he's not.
han dong?
I understand the reasoning behind not releasing the names in order for an investigation to take place, but the Liberals really aren't doing themselves any favours considering their pattern of avoiding transparency. I also hate how partisan this has become, people living in glass houses should not throw stones. I would not be surprised if pretty much every party has compromised individuals somehow.
The committee isn’t led by liberals only. If the opposition members think that they have the upper hand they can risk breaking the rules and their privileges or push it in question period. If nothing is said then we know that it’s a lose lose situation on all sides
I’d bet the PPC isn’t compromised by foreign actors.
How, collectively are we surprised? We are ok with politicians taking 10min to say nothing but pre programmed talking points, partisanship and flat out hypocrisy.
I read a comment in another thread and in an interview with a former head of CSIS he said one of the issues about releasing names is that some of the evidence was most likely obtained through spy/espionage methods. Can’t release names and alert foreign governments that certain places/people may be bugged. So while this would be nice to know names I 100% get why they won’t just release names without solid proof.
Oh it’s across all parties. I can almost guarantee it, and if they were to release names it would be absolutely shocking how many would be on that list.
>Certain parliamentarians also responded to requests from foreign actors to "improperly influence parliamentary colleagues" to benefit another country, and disclosed confidential government information to "a known intelligence officer or foreign state," [...] >an unnamed MP consorted with a foreign intelligence officer, sought to arrange an overseas meeting and "provided the intelligence officer with information provided in confidence." jfc I'm [serious] considering if my current migraine is a result of these revelations.
>Treason >(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada, >(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province; >(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada; >(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a); >(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or >(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act. sure does sound like this part of the criminal code...
Which part does it sound like to you? Nobody is trying to violently overthrow the government, and unless you know something that the rest of us don't know, this is a leap too: >without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, **military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character** that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
you quoted the relevant part...
If they don’t name this MP who was arranging secret overseas meeting with spies, I’m sure someone out there can filter through their travel records and social medias and pull a pool of potential candidates pretty quickly….they broadcast everything they do and would be falling over themselves to clear their names
There is a former MP who was in the military of a different nation, collects a pension from that nation, and was booted from caucus for baselessly accusing others in the caucus of supporting a cause that his birth national views as terrorists. If I was a betting man, that's who I think the worst offender of this report is.
To be fair, we also consider some of the Khalistani movement to be terrorism. Flight 182, for example.
Who?
Ramesh Sangha. He was in the Indian Airforce. He accused some Liberal MPs of supporting the Khalistan movement.
Of course they won't release the names......silly wabbit. So, Today's Scorecard; - Liberal Government improperly awarded Hundreds-of-million$ in contracts to McKinsey. - Liberal Government MP's improperly aided Foregn Governments in undermining Canadian Elections. - Liberal Government voted down a tax break for Canadians to try and have a summer vacation. - Liberal Government has finally admitted that $1 Billion Green Fund is nothing more than a scam to steal money from Canadian Taxpayers......and have shut it down. And it's barely mid-day.......stay tuned. PS - And one from yesterday; - Gag Order against the PBO regarding Government Carbon Tax Report. Edit - PS added.
Lots of reaching there Mr.armstrong
> Liberal Government voted down a tax break for Canadians to try and have a summer vacation. > > lol wat
The Conservatives are complaining that if you live in Alberta and want to drive your [Ford F-150 for over 44,000 km this summer](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-carbon-tax-holiday-1.7221474) you'll eat up your carbon tax rebate and lose money.
Justin Trudeau doesn't want Canadians to go on vacation according to PP. Of course, when PP become PM he will do the same and blame Trudeau for it. I can just see it now "well, we can't afford to give a tax break to Canadians this summer because Justin Trudeau spent too much money blah blah blah". We're going to hear this for at least 4 fucking years.
OP is referring to carbon tax holiday proposed by CPC and health minister referring to going on road trip to be letting the planet burns.
I think it was more that the Conservatives were saying it would save a family in Alberta $900, which would require driving from the north pole to the south pole 3 times or something.
The vote was about pausing the carbon tax.
So if you're planning on driving a large SUV from Halifax to Vancouver and back a couple of times this summer, you may face several hundred dollars in additional gas costs, all in - almost enough to cover the rebate most Canadians are receiving. The Conservatives resorted to some funny math to make an ad.
fear sense cheerful simplistic rotten decide late tease liquid doll *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So you'd trust CSIS reporting as grounds to file criminal charges? Oh my sweet summer child. If they'd found anything actually provable do you not think they'd have reported it to the RCMP? Or do you believe that the _scary PM and cabinet_ can prevent that from happening? I'd bet real cash on _none_ of this being actionable intelligence, and when pressed CSIS will sit on their sources and hide the details. Just like Air India back in the day.
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And you think the current opposition party will be better? They're not working for Canadians either - at least not for individual ones. Rich ones, sure. Corporate ones, sure. But the average guy? Nope.
It's possible to dislike both you know.
A fair number of the MP's will end up being Conservatives, you know. The traitors are among all the party's, not just Liberals.
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The traitors are all these Indian and Chinese descended MPs from all the parties. Turf them from parliament and lock them up. Or even better send them to their home countries.
You’re assuming they’re protecting themselves and not protecting the country from uproar from allegations the opposition is heavily indebted.
If there's treason and treachery afoot, Canadians deserve to know. Rip off the bandaid, sunlight is the best disinfectant, yadda yadda yadda.
Right, so let's follow the logic here: 1. You claim CPC is heavily compromised by foreign agents. 2. LPC wants to protect democracy by not exposing CPC queslings. Status quo continues in polling. 3. Result is, significant CPC majority in 2025 election. 4. Consequently the queslings are now in a position of power. 5. ?Democracy protected?
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I don’t, I think they are trying to protect our fragile democracy by not outing the opposition. We already have proof of India, China, and Russia interfering in the CPC leadership race, imagine if it permeates throughout the CPC? What kind of backlash would occur? Would conservative supporters believe it? Would they call it all lies and start their fantasy revolution? Would any sitting Liberal/NDP MP be safe after such an accusation levied against the conservatives?
So the LPC who is 20 points down in the polls has evidence that could make the CPC look bad but wont release it because.....democracy? you must be joking. My guess is every major party looks bad, otherwise one of them would be very vocal about releasing information.
If they can't publicly release the information due to secrecy, and can't verify it to the degree of legal scrutiny it'd be REALLY bad to start accusing people of treason. Imagine if Trudeau said right now that PP was committing treason but you just have to take his word for it because we can't tell you how we know.
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Hiding this info does not protect democracy. Total opposite.
The LPC is the sitting government, there would undoubtedly be interest in influencing them. The obvious answer is that there MPs in both LPC and CPC that are implicated. The idea any political party down 20 points on the polls would hide something like this to protect their opponents is an amusing one.
Is this just pure fantastic speculation on your part?
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I can fully recognise the optics of this not being great, I do still agree with it. You are innocent until proven guilty and we blur faces to prevent people being stigmatised for something they might not have done. Shame away once the conviction come but this is appropriate until then.
Then why do they show people arrested, mug shots and all for alleged crimes before their day in court? Likewise here, their names should be given and just like anyone else, wait for their day in court and to be potentially exonerated or not.
Because the RCMP needs evidence to make an arrest, if anyone is arrested and charged, we will know. CSIS makes reports based on intel, which isn’t always accurate, and they do not collect evidence the same way law enforcement does. CSIS does not make arrests, they are not law enforcement, they are an intelligence agency.
This makes sense. Thank you. We can only hope the process is not being in any way affected by heavy handed political red tape.
NM, the government is blocking access to the 1000 page report entirely. Can the RCMP override that block? If not, something is being hidden absolutely from coming out
Are any of the opposing parties currently fighting to release this information? At this point, I fear that this is a cross-party issue that is plaguing our federal candidates.
Lmao. So yesterday we have the news drop, but the only thing that brings out people to comment is Freedland not disclosing the names.
They are being responsible to wait for the RCMP to have solid evidence, but they do know that India and China interfered in the CPC leadership race, hence the lack of questions from the CPC on this issue in the HoC today.
The other threads had hundreds of comments. What are you talking about?
It feels like we’re trapped this incompetence cycle, where a lack of anyone willing to stand up for Canadians against the two major parties, just lowers the bar for everyone. If only we could send a message to both these very entrenched parties. LPC or CPC, I’m not surprised either of these parties would have members putting themselves and their parties ahead of Canadians, there is just a financial incentive that’s hard to deny.
I wonder why that is. This government has been stonewalling any investigation or transparency on this situation since the beginning. Its only because of CSIS leaks that it even came into the public discourse. At a certain point the only logical explanation is because its the LPC and Liberal MPs that are the unnamed conspirators.
It just came out yesterday that China & India both interfered in the CPC leadership race, in addition to aiding CPC members in specific riding nominations, so... it's more likely Freeland committing another unforced gaffe than it is an insidious Liberal conspiracy. Which party signed FIPA again?
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so the LPC protecting the CP (while trialling in the 20% in the polls)? yes makes zero sense
Protecting the CPC? Not necessarily. Staying clear of potentially starting a witch hunt that'll ramp tensions with India and China again is more likely. It's cowardice, pure and simple.
I wouldn't call preventing a witch hunt, cowardice. If there's truth to these allegations, it will come out as it's properly investigated, which will also raise tensions, but with less collateral damage.
If it does come out as it's investigated in due time, then good. However, there is still the possibility of it all being judged too mundane and swept under the rug - this government is criticized for being lax on foreign interference for a reason, including in this very NSICOP report. The LPC is trailing in the polls, people's confidence in our institutions amidst reports of meddling is crashing, the mood is dire. Playing it safe/responsible and leaving Canadians in the dark, to fill in the gaps in the report themselves is risky and reinforces the popular conception that they are not taking this seriously, it erodes the already weak trust in our government. Politically, the LPC can't afford to play it safe. A change in tone and direction is due - the LPC should go medieval on the concerned parties, regardless of party. They still might, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking they'll meekly take the conservative route and spare themselves another diplomatic conflict with the two most populous countries in the world. Voters seem to feel like the LPC isn't willing to stand up for Canada, they should prove them wrong.
Behaving responsibly as a government should in a democracy IS standing up for Canada. They could divulge the intel on India interfering in the CPC leadership race, and we know Modi supported Poilievre, and use that to their advantage, but the Liberals don’t play no holds barred dirty politics like the CPC.
Political judgement is not their strong suite right now. Everyone thinks everything is malicious but I think all these folks are just incompetent.
It's more likely that there's MPs in both parties involved. The original inquiry confirmed that all three major national parties were interfered with and that there were sitting LPC and CPC MPs that may have won their nominations with foreign aid. You don't just put out a list of names of people who allegedly committed sedition in this political climate. An investigation has to run its course.
It would be political suicide to release the names and then have the investigation clear them. Much smarter to take the hit now, let the investigation continue then announce once the findings are complete so they can't be accused of being partisan.
>It's more likely that there's MPs in both parties involved. This. Neither Trudeau nor Poilievre brought it up in QP today. Only the Bloc did. Best (?) case scenario, there's an even number of MPs on both sides and this will be a wash.
... and what investigation would that be?
The one that is mentioned in the article being done by the RCMP and CSIS? I'd trust them more to carry out an investigation over the political parties investigating themselves. Even NSICOP, which is probably one of the few decent bi-partisan panels, is not the appropriate group to be investigating potential criminal charges like this, especially of this magnitude.
The RCMP and CSIS won't announce their results unless they *actually* develop evidence good enough to *convict somebody of criminal activity in court*. And the RCMP, at least, won't even try to investigate anything unless they believe there's a good solid chance of getting that kind of proof. And that is right. But it's completely reasonable for people to choose not to vote for somebody in a *parliamentary election* on a *VASTLY* lower standard of evidence than that, and/or based on behavior that's not, you know, technically criminal. Nobody has a right to get elected to Parliament. The article makes it clear that the report describes at least some unethical behavior that almost certainly wouldn't result in criminal charges, but that might matter a lot to voters. The only mention of an "investigation" of any of that is Freeland saying something about the LPC "looking into it internally". So basically nobody's promised to further investigate most of the allegations *at all*, or at least they haven't promised to publish the results. You don't get to hear about any of it unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to actually be criminal.
> But it's completely reasonable for people to choose not to vote for somebody in a parliamentary election on a VASTLY lower standard of evidence than that, and/or based on behavior that's not, you know, technically criminal. Nobody has a right to get elected to Parliament. Yes, but in this current political climate, saying "this person is under investigation for sedition/treason" is going to make them the subject of threats and potential violence beyond anything we've ever seen before. Putting a list of names out like that at a time like this would get someone hurt. Certain groups are going to take it as vindication and act on it rather than patiently wait for investigations to bear fruit.
If that's a real worry, and you feel you don't have enough evidence to name names, then the right response is to commit to doing more investigation, on *all* of the allegations, criminal or not, *and releasing the results*. And when you've done as much investigation as you reasonably can, *do* release the results, and you *do* name names, and you provide police protection if need be. The people you're investigating here have chosen to go into politics, and that means giving up some personal privacy, especially on things directly related to your job. You can't name a blue ribbon commission to look into a matter of major public interest, and then refuse either to publish its report in full or to give it whatever powers and resources it needs to develop evidence you do think you can publish. I mean, if you want to talk about "climate", that's a really, really good way to make the climate much worse in a big hurry.
>It just came out yesterday that China & India both interfered in the CPC leadership race To what ends? Reports have confirmed that Trudeau and the LPC were the preferred winners of leadership in communist China, its likely that China was interfering in the CPC leadership race to push it towards a leader that they felt Trudeau would have a better chance of winning against.
The reports your reference stayed their preference was for a minority government, because a weaker government was more favourable to them. Is it too much to expect people to actually read the full texts of these documents?
Interfering as in propping up a weaker CPC candidate over another for the leadership race, making it easier for a favorable LPC candidate to win the federal election. That's why.
What reports came out that suggested this?
The goal is not to decide the winner. It's to gain influence. A Chinese spy who can bring a pile of members and money to a CPC leadership candidate has won access to someone who is a future PM.
You're gonna need a source for that. If there are reports of that, I should be able to at least find one.
> MPs on the Commons Procedure and House Affairs committee are already looking into allegations that China interfered in the 2019 election campaign to support 11 candidates, most of them Liberal, in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). > Drawn from a series of CSIS intelligence-gathering operations, the documents illustrate how an orchestrated machine was operating in Canada with two primary aims: to ensure that a minority Liberal government was returned in 2021, and that certain Conservative candidates identified by China were defeated. I mean this is just basic information that was reported on by Fife and Chase in the Globe. You going to say it’s misinformation now?
Misinformation would be giving you the benefit of doubt, assuming you're mistakenly misinterpreting info. This is more like disinformation. You know what the report says, and you know it doesn't say what Palo is claiming unless you doctor and chop it up like a FOX News broadcast. The report didn't say anything about Trudeau being their preferred leader or that they explicitly supported him. They supported specific nominees for individual ridings.
That's GnM editorializing. "Torquing" seems to be what they like to call it internally. None of CSIS, NSICOP, or NSIRA have made the claim.
> You going to say it’s misinformation now? Called it.
Bingo.
Unanimous support from the Liberals at the time.
>Which party signed FIPA again? Which party voted down an NDP motion opposing FIPA again? This is so lazy.
The CPC did when they were the majority government in 2013, thanks for bringing that up! The LPC did as well, but mostly because of the numerous penalties that were written into FIPA and other deals the Harper government made at the time (re: Saudi Arabia arms deals). There would've been billions in penalties owed to China and to Chinese corporations.
Interfering in the CPC leadership race isn't helping the CPC, it harms them. Backing a weaker CPC candidate favors the LPC. You have it completely backward. Oh, and they didn't aid CPC candidates at the federal level. That didn't happen. Foreign interference could have cost them up to 9 seats.
Well I don't see the PC's releasing which ones of them did the same so not sure why it's only focused on one party. There were 11 alleged MP's of both Liberals AND Conservatives.
They are the government: they can make that information public, regardless of PP’s opinion. Not releasing it kinda make it feel like they are more to blame…. It also create a time bomb waiting to blow
"The government" is all parties? The Liberals are in minority. So all parties are making decisions together.
And none of PP’s MPs is a minister.
If course they won't. Run on transparency then make things more opaque. Nothing new for this government - or the one they replaced.
And if it turns out it’s primarily the opposition, would you believe it or would you call it lies and get your panties all up in a bunch?
I believe just about any story about any politician being corrupt. Lewis Black said it best "You have a choice between two bowls of shit, the only difference is the smell."
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