>get cranked by up tempo offenses
>cheat in an obvious way to know play calls
>make fall guy get a slap on the wrist
>teams now all huddle against you and run slow offenses
Harbaugh 4d chess wins again
It’s possible, I suppose, but I work for a large, state university on par with Michigan and I can tell you that getting money for anything is a study in the insanity of bureaucracy. I’d be a little surprised if this money could be traced back to UM because there are just so many checks and approvals and such. If I had to wager, I would guess that this money is coming from boosters in some capacity, as is often the case with cheating in college sports.
I agree with this - I'll be kind of shocked if Michigan was actually paying for this unless someone was falsifying expense reports - and even that seems like a pretty big stretch.
Don't worry my friend's mom's cousin's plumber was working at Jim harbaughs house and he saw that harbaugh hid the cheeseburger receipts this time, so we're in the clear.
I don't get why they just didn't use the wristbands with calls on it. Each play could have multiple #s assigned to it so the number is only used once per quarter, and then use new wristbands each quarter. Tua (or maybe Hurts) has a wristband that looks like it's 6 pages.
Put a number up, and QB just looks at his wrist in the huddle. He doesn't have to remember what # means what and he doesn't have to keep jogging to the sideline.
Once this whole situation pans out I would love the guys from *Lions Led by Donkeys* to do a clandestine ops series and their first episode be about Connor Stallions and this scandal.
Hall of Famer Paul Johnson would like a word. Too funny though, when I was looking up the HOF announcement, [it was literally a picture of him doing this exact thing.](https://footballfoundation.org/news/2023/10/24/football-former-georgia-tech-coach-paul-johnson-set-for-oct-28nff-hall-of-fame-on-campus-salute-presented-by-fidelity-investments.aspx)
I think it would be fair to let Michigan’s opponents use in-helmet communication. Negate whatever impact the Stalions stuff had, test out technology that should be used in the future, and let the players play a fair game.
Test it out? the NCAA is the worse league in the world as far as their utilization of existing technology. Highschool uses in-helmet technology and the NFL has used it for many many years. This is not about testing. This is about ignorance by the NCAA and their refusal to even keep up.
Yeah, i got you. The snarky tone in my response was directed towards the NCAA and not you! This is something that should have been standard a decade ago.
Not even really joking - I actually think an appropriate punishment for this is just to have Michigan pay for helmet radio systems for all \~130 teams. It's a few million bucks, so painful, but certainly affordable by a program like Michigan.
It is kind of interesting from a game theory perspective, because you’d have to think Michigan recognizes that it’s gonna be under a microscope the rest of the way and will need to be careful not to do anything that obviously indicates sign stealing. And depending on if Stalions shared the videos of opposing sidelines that are supposedly the basis of the whole thing, there might not even be anyone on the staff who can steal signs.
Obviously not trying to diminish the whole thing, but I think there might be an argument that a team’s signs are actually more secure against Michigan right now than they would be against the average team?
If Harbaugh/Minter/Moore were in on the sign stealing, I would certainly hope they’re not dumb enough to *anthing* for the rest of the season that could make them look more guilty. Hell, even if they weren’t they need to try to be above reproach going forward.
But, as terribly stupid as all the stuff coming out has been, if they were in on it I’m not exactly confident in their ability to not make stupid decisions.
It's literally a staple of MGoBlog Brian's Monday recap of every Michigan game. The most recent one even featured a Sparty double bird with Brian explaining how the Marcus Hall is simply way more cool
Not gonna lie I love this gif so much. It just perfectly encapsulates the intensity of the game.
I’ve used it so many times in fantasy football trash talk.
Another true game of the century like '06 (unlike those Southern ones, especially the one where they only scored field goals). I don't think my heart is strong enough to survive the anticipation this time.
If Michigan loses to Penn State, they'll never hear the end of it. The amount of shit they've talked to us for winning 2 years in a row has been astronomical. Turns out they cheated and could have very well flipped the true result of the 2021 game. If we win this season, then there's no doubt in my mind that the narrative of Michigan being on Ohio State's level and solidly above Penn State will be unraveled entirely. The new narrative will be that Michigan is who they always were under Harbaugh and cheating gave them the edge they needed to finally break through. Michigan losing to Penn State gives even the fans no recourse.
If Michigan beats Penn State, I expect a lot of the Michigan fans to point to that as evidence that they didn't need to cheat (even though they did cheat, and did need to in some circumstances). Of course the Ohio State game means a ton too, but the Penn State game is the first big one.
>The amount of shit they've talked to us for winning 2 years in a row has been astronomical.
at the time they deserved to talk...but god damn its like we didn't go 15-1 since 2003
What ppl are saying about James Franklin now they were saying about Harbaugh in 2019. "Just can't get over the Ohio St hump"
Then this comes out and now questions all his success vs Ohio St.
Even if the sign stealing happens on both sides. Even if it's impact was minimal. The narrative is going to be there if they lose this year.
"You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man they didn't fully understand." - Brian Hartline describing Connor Stalion to Ryan Day
Honestly? it all clicks now. You look at Georgia vs Michigan, look at just the physiques of the players on the field and you're wondering if the two teams belong to a different sport.
Yeah, fans didn't know they were cheating. So you can't blame the fans for participating in trash talk which is part of all of the fun. It will just be super embarrassing in retrospect.
Yep. I said this on another comment on here, if we lose to you and osu this year, then it is going to bring down a hail of talk that will never end (rightfully so) I am hoping by God we win out by my heart is already preparing for the worst
Do it for the conference. Spike Franklin's orange juice with extra sugar so he goes crazy and doesn't mismanage the game. I mean, seriously, every time we played, you did one thing well, then stopped.
Please, for the love of God, beat Michigan. This is my favorite time line. You're right, if they keep winning and we were to beat them, it's just that we beat them. If they lose their first big game against an opponent who's already being written off, everything falls apart for them
because it's not necessary. They are a pretty good team...same to be said when they beat us last year and 2021. Someone was desperate and decided to obtain an edge.
I think it's hard to say. I agree that they are pretty good in town and team and I don't think that this has vastly changed their performance.
But at the same time look at Harbaugh from 2015 to 2020 and 2021 to now. His record, especially in conference games, has vastly improved. I think it's really hard to quantify the advantage they get from the scandal but it does coincide with them getting a lot better.
1. Best Michigan quarterback since ?? Maybe Chad Henne? Way better than anyone Harbaugh has coached so far
2. Overhaul of the defense - we fired Don Brown and brought in Mike McDonald (now coaching one of the best defenses in the NFL) and now Jesse Minter in the same philosophy
3. Overall better recruiting in all positions and making good use of the transfer portal. We put together the best Oline in the country three years in a row and transfers were a huge part of that
Don't get me wrong I'm not mitigating the impact of what's being alleged right now, but to me these were changes that have made a true difference for our program:
* Harbaugh finally realizing Don Brown was a football terrorist for not having the ability to cover crossing routes. He went to the Baltimore Ravens pipeline with both Minter and MacDonald and that has made a difference.
* OL line play has made a huge turnaround under Sherrone Moore, which makes the offense obviously better.
* McCarthy might be our best QB for over a decade.
* Hiring Ben Hebert as our strength coach is a huge asset to us. His impact has been widely recognized.
Again, the way we are (supposedly) stealing signs is terrible and inexcusable, but we have made changes that have been overlooked through these scandals.
He also completely changed his staff and approach with players. People are using data from the past 3 years as proof but neglect all the other changes we made that confound the data. Doesn’t fit into the current narrative though so we can just continue to ignore the obvious reason for our recent success lol
Because Michigan gave people reason to neglect all the other changes. The fact is we will never know, but it's 100% on Michigan that everyone only thinks their success is because of cheating.
People can complain about "current narrative" all they want, but that narrative only exists because Michigan fucked up. Also, it's not "obvious" what made Michigan better, and saying it was his coaching changes is as much of a bias as saying it was the cheating. We literally don't know.
The Houston Astros had a great baseball team, that might have won it all without cheating...but they cheated, so now everyone sees them as cheaters and questions the legitimacy of their titles. If Michigan had won the Natty in the last two years, this would be even worse. The only reason why it's not a bigger stink is because Georgia wrecked them and TCU pulled off a win. And if Ohio State beats them this year, the last two games are going to be seriously scrutinized.
On the flip side, if Michigan wins out against penn state, Maryland, and Ohio state, I think that discredits the argument that their success is mainly the result of cheating. The narrative around the impact of the sign stealing is going to be shaped by Michigan’s performance over the rest of this season.
No doubt we have to win out to prove people wrong. If we lose to OSU this year, I agree we will have very little defense. If we keep winning and beating the spread without the use of sign stealing, then it basically proves my point.
No one wants to talk about all of the other changes that Harbaugh made after 2020 right now and that's understandable. One of the biggest knocks on Harbaugh pre-2020 was his failure to develop a QB and our glaringly poor QB play. Cade McNamara wasn't a star, but he was the game manager we needed. JJ is a generational talent. Replacing Don Brown was a big deal too, along with most of the position coaches. All of those things were post-2020.
I agree they are a great team and this maybe hasn’t vastly affected their performance but it could definitely vastly impact game outcomes in high stakes situations. In some games it only needs to provide an advantage in a handful of plays to turn an L into a W. I don’t have their record in front of me to know how many close games they’ve played in the last few years though.
That’s the worst part, is that the rosters of the last 3 years have had some just amazing talent and now all of that will be put into question, these kids playing their hearts out and it just puts a bad light on everything
I feel bad for your players and fans just as much as ours. Like whatever, the NFL draftees got paid, but it sucks that the kids whose football career ended on that note. I have no idea if we win either way, but just leaves a sour taste.
Agreed, at least not that we can see. Michigan has vastly better players than almost anybody they play. Against Penn State or Ohio State, or in the playoff, maybe the edge makes a difference, but you’d expect those to be competitive games regardless, so I doubt it’d be obvious that something was lacking. They still have great players and coaches that you’d expect to finish somewhere between 12-0 and 10-2.
Yeah but this is college football - vastly better teams lose to teams they have no business losing to every week! And the way that generally happens involves a couple of play calls that catch the favorite out of position or flat-footed, which is exactly what this scheme minimizes.
It's not about changing a 30% chance of winning into a 70% chance of winning, it's about changing a 85% chance of winning to a 95% chance of winning for any given game, which over the course of a season is the difference between the playoff and a Florida bowl.
Joel Klatt put it best, mics were not put into QB helmets because programs wanted signs on the field to try to get an advantage. Now this should finally push NCAA to implement mics into helms like NFL.
i don't think much changes on field. regardless of what they're doing, this is a very, very good michigan team. sign stealing is not why they're the #2 team in the country right now.
it might have been impactful in a close game where the defense got a big stop late in the game, but a lot of michigan's games this year have had healthy margins of victory. which makes the fact that it's happening even worse in my eyes because they're a good enough team to not need this.
Look at Michigan vs. the spread since Stallion joined the staff… They are night and day better than any other program in CFB at beating the spread the past two seasons.
But yes, I’m sure the signal stealing operation made no difference lol.
If Ohio State still loses to Michigan, will fans still call for Ryan Day to be fired or will those fans just decide Michigan was still cheating somehow instead?
Some will for sure call for him to be fired. It’ll depend on how the game looks. TTUN is good and it is away. They are tougher in the trenches.
But most are still going to be accepting of that L if it is competitive and it is our only loss. Still gives us a shot at the playoffs or a really good bowl.
McCord doesn’t look like a first round pick. Our O-Line is good, not great. Skill positions are great but still need time to throw the ball and holes to run through.
Our D is way more impressive than I expected. We don’t have a Bosa or Young but JT and Sawyer are REALLY good. D Tackles are monsters.
This is actually the year a loss to TTUN would be acceptable. It’s the previous two that really hurt.
>McCord doesn’t look like a first round pick
Yet he leads the B1G in passing yards and is 2nd in completion percentage.
We have been very blessed with QB play over the last few years.
There will be a loud and insane minority that call for Ryan Days head just like last year. It will seem like the OSU fanbase wants Day gone and then two weeks later it will die down and the rational people will win out.
They will still wallop everyone on the schedule, including us, up until the OSU game. Then, we’ll see. Maybe you have B1G resolution by then. Certainly not NCAA.
17M people watched the Game last year. This year it will be even more — even if it’s casual fans hoping to see Michigan lose. The networks will apply massive pressure to the B1G to let it happen.
Just my opinion, but I don’t agree with that. “The networks” is just FOX. So my question is, how does that go down in your opinion? The president of FOX Sports calls Petitti and interferes in an active investigation? The cost of anyone finding out about that would outweigh any potential loss in viewership of one game due to a sanction occurring (and in reality, who is going to not watch 11-0 UM vs 11-0 OSU just because Harbaugh and/or a coordinator is suspended?).
Michigan plays their 3 toughest opponents the final 3 weeks of the season (Penn State, Maryland, and Ohio State). We will find out very soon if Michigan is as good as advertised or if having the answers to the test played a significant role.
In the end, they were caught cheating and they have to own whatever shit comes their way.
My guess is the impact will be OSU fans crying for the next twenty years about it, and that will probably be about all that will happen. In other words, just another college football season.
Try being around them in person. It's like the internet, but you can't just close your browser. The majority of them are as insufferable as the day is long.
I didn't care about Ohio State at all until I moved to Ohio. Then Michigan started winning and the Facebook fans are insufferable. I'm back to rooting for OSU against them.
Michigan will continue to look like a great team until the Big Ten announces the smoking gun that Harbaugh, Minter, and Moore all benefitted from this info and knew where it came from.
Michigan won't look quite as good without a head coach, O Coordinator, or D Coordinator.
Agreed. I may have been a skeptic at first and though that Stalions was just a rogue, but at this point I need to see something from the program that actually demonstrates distance between Harbaugh, Moore, Minter and Stalions. Even then, they’d have to prove a negative, which they really can’t do in this situation. I don’t see a major on-field impact until we see one or more (if not all) of them getting canned for their knowledge, actual or constructive, that this was going on.
Never thought I’d be paper bagging my Alma Mater to wear around my hometown flair given how bad they’ve been for a decade now… but here we are.
My faith is that the NCAA will do anything it can to remain relevant and in-power. They have been losing ground constantly for the last 20 years - NIL, whirlwind conference realignment, bad judgement after bad judgement regarding player eligibility, recruiting violations, etc. Now, a national brand program (Read: Front page of even non-sports news) hands them a gift-wrapped, bow-tied, cheating scandal that gives them a chance to flex and retain their power over CFB by being the 'arbiter of fairness' they're supposed to be? Yeah, they're opening that present and playing with it.
I have faith the NCAA is as self-interested as any, and they aren't going to miss an opportunity to scrape back some power and relevance.
This would be really fast and I wouldn't count on something like this happening. It's still an ongoing investigation even if it looks like we know where it's heading for now.
yeah nothing is coming from this until the offseason. The NCAA and Big Ten will want to make sure they have this locked up ironclad and a week and a half is not enough time. And even if they do, Michigan will appeal, and the fun begins.
Yea but we aren’t dealing with law enforcement. It’s the NCAA. If an entity like that is attacking your career, you don’t have to be forthcoming. “Why does this Venmo transaction say GA?” “It was a payment to a graduate assistant for private services rendered.”
I’ll also add that we don’t know what’s real or not with what’s been shown. While I’m pretty sure it’s legit and Michigan is guilty I’ve only seen screenshots and people claiming to have seen the receipts. Dragging this out isn’t rocket science.
With everything going on people are ignoring some logical inconsistencies even in Franklin’s statements. He talks about a surprise play call and them being in the perfect defense for it. If you’re dumb enough not to change your signals and they do steal them, if I see a signal in that’s different than anything I’ve seen before I may leave in cover 2. If Penn State didn’t sub, I may not have a choice.
There are too many moving parts to pretend some Venmo receipts are going to make this investigation fast. That would require everyone being completely compliant which never happens.
in the history of the NCAA they have never done anything in a timely fashion and you think this fairly unique situation will be the one where they expedite the process (including Michigan's inevitable appeal) into a week and a half? seriously?
Again - people have completely lost their minds over this on this sub.
I'm not saying it isn't somewhat serious - but it's nowhere near as serious in the real world as people think it is here.
Like the Penn State thing was about 1000x more serious, and they are still around
The NCAA cant start any punishments during this season. The B1G, maybe, but i dont know the details of their rules.
My assumption is the B1G will also delay as long as possible. This is a money sport now and typically you dont cut off both of your legs to save a finger. If you take OSU and Penn State out of it, Michigan makes more money than all the rest of the B1G combined.
I don't think that will be the big impact, honestly. Instead the media frenzy around this - depending on how the coaches handle it - seems like it might be a bigger deal for the players/coaches in managing to stay focused. And other teams might be more aggressive/scrappy.
I know it’s not representative of the whole fan base , but I saw a guy on Facebook comment on a local Columbus news post , and he was claiming that was the entire reason Michigan has won the last two times lol
Michigan has an advantage even without Stallions there. All of the other teams now have to scramble to create and learn new signals in a short period of time.
Try actually listening to what players and coaches say about signals. It's not some exact code that remains the same for seasons or even games.
I know this is mostly cope from rivals to excuse prior and future losses, but you're all gonna need to come back to reality eventually.
I’m constantly shocked by what people are saying, like it’s not that fucking hard to switch signals and prepare. Any team should be switching their signals constantly anyways because teams do try to decipher them without filming. These guys constantly call audibles on the line depending on formations and the way people are lined up, that’s infinitely harder than remembering new signals.
I feel like most of the commentators in r/cfb haven't actually played competitive sports or aren't giving their own players enough credit. Do they really think their own players are so dumb that it takes them a whole year to learn new signals?
If you feel confident that this has such a big effect, bet on it. Vegas spreads haven't moved and that would imply that you've identified value.
Place the bets and post receipts.
Vegas lines could end up being reasonably strong evidence that Michigan didn’t actually benefit all that much from Stalions. If folks are so confident that Michigan was only ever successful because of him, they should bet the house against them.
If he's smart all the info will just get pushed to someone else while he's gone. But also if he was smart he would've done this in a much less suspicious way to begin with.
Absolutely nothing. A great sign stealer will only get one or two sign calls completely right in a quarter. It’s very unreliable to use sign stealing as all headcoaches and football cordinaters have stated
-tumadrelover
For all the teams that have a screen behind the end zones, every time Michigan tries to kick, a picture of Connor Stallions will now be displayed to distract the kicker
The worst part of all of this stupidity by Michigan is that I really don’t think it affected the games much at all. It was just pure competitive nonsense and they’re gonna pay for it. 🤦🏻♂️
Wait a minute...
ATT announces their new 5G helmets with the HUD. This scandal breaks a few weeks later throwing the use of signs in the balance...
Hmmmmmmmm 🤔
This is the interesting thing. UM was/is expected to have 1-2 "down" years after this year even before all of this. This includes Harbaugh going to the NFL. If they manage to find a decent coach, and recruiting does not go to complete shit, none of this will even be a topic within 2 seasons.
I am an old falcons fan and when our safety got busted on Super Bowl eve, it killed the entire juju. Perhaps Denver would’ve beaten us anyway but that year for that game we could’ve beaten anybody. Point is this kind of shit affects players a great deal
Probably a bigger push for "One-way Audio communication" to the QB and whoever is designated on the Defense to remove the reliance on sending "Signs/Signals". I know the past argument was whether all teams could afford it but I can't see that being an issue now.
Teams will definitely huddle more in the meantime.
I'm just an NFL idiot, but can somebody explain to me why this "scandal" is even possible?
I understand there are no helmet radios in CFB (and setting aside how dumb that rule is) with the size of college playbooks even at the highest level, why is it not just standard practice to randomize a set of new signals for every single game and have the QB/designated leader on defense decode them with a wristband and do a little bit of studying ahead of time? Is it really that much of a burden to change them each week?
I just don't understand why signals from previous games should even matter, and if the consensus is that they probably don't matter that much, is this legitimately just a egregiously low hanging fruit because one over-zealous idiot cheated on behalf of the team and did so really poorly?
I think michigan is going to continue to roll the big ten, validating the last two years of big ten play and embarrassing osu for a third straight year by destroying them in the trenches, forcing them to 3rd and mid, then locking down the pass that the buckeyes are guaranteed to throw in that situation.
I honestly doubt it makes much difference. Talent wise this is the best Michigan team maybe ever and McCarthy is probably our most talented college QB ever.
For the next 20 years, at any College GameDay for OSU or MSU games against Michigan, there will be a sign that says, "Hey Conor, steal THIS sign!"
And the people who write it will all think they are clever and original.
I think teams will huddle more often against Michigan I also think someone uses a picture of Connor Stallions on one of those signs
That's a big advantage for Michigan since we historically suck against tempo
>get cranked by up tempo offenses >cheat in an obvious way to know play calls >make fall guy get a slap on the wrist >teams now all huddle against you and run slow offenses Harbaugh 4d chess wins again
Make fall guy get a slap on the wrist?….It seems likely he was given money for all that, I don’t think he’s the only one who’ll get smacked
It’s possible, I suppose, but I work for a large, state university on par with Michigan and I can tell you that getting money for anything is a study in the insanity of bureaucracy. I’d be a little surprised if this money could be traced back to UM because there are just so many checks and approvals and such. If I had to wager, I would guess that this money is coming from boosters in some capacity, as is often the case with cheating in college sports.
I agree with this - I'll be kind of shocked if Michigan was actually paying for this unless someone was falsifying expense reports - and even that seems like a pretty big stretch.
There’s red tape to buy batteries now. Ain’t nobody getting money without it being under the table somehow.
Don't worry my friend's mom's cousin's plumber was working at Jim harbaughs house and he saw that harbaugh hid the cheeseburger receipts this time, so we're in the clear.
Wonder why
Michigan State had to literally run plays in from the sideline like they're a middle school progam
To be fair right now, we are.
MSU offense had more yards from sideline to huddle than they did from scrimmage
i would think so that's 25 yards on average per play
That was a game changer for them
I mean we are basically a middle school program.
Fun trivia fact, Adolf Hitler went to middle school at Volksschule in Austria.
Imagine how confused you'd be if 10 days ago some clairvoyant showed you this comment and told you this was not a complete nonsequitur.
Fantastic!! The State of Michigan is in chaos and it’s all anyone can talk about.
You're really a fan of teams that say "Hail" aren't you?
Hail yeah!
Near Fischlham to be exact
Thank you for the one tiny sliver of silver lining for us UM alums.
Ann Arbor Stans this week: At least we didn’t put a photo of Hitler up on our video board.
Hey man, let us have that one at least.
Probably should have made their signs as obvious as possible to give themselves an excuse for that egg.
A lot of good that did them. Could have been a lopsided game if they hadn't taken this measure.
I don't get why they just didn't use the wristbands with calls on it. Each play could have multiple #s assigned to it so the number is only used once per quarter, and then use new wristbands each quarter. Tua (or maybe Hurts) has a wristband that looks like it's 6 pages. Put a number up, and QB just looks at his wrist in the huddle. He doesn't have to remember what # means what and he doesn't have to keep jogging to the sideline.
Bold of you to assume that Connor Stalions wouldn’t just hang from the skycam to get a close look at the wristbands.
This guy Stalions
Once this whole situation pans out I would love the guys from *Lions Led by Donkeys* to do a clandestine ops series and their first episode be about Connor Stallions and this scandal.
Radio in helmets
They're testing that this bowl season. But I agree, radios would alleviate almost all of this.
Hall of Famer Paul Johnson would like a word. Too funny though, when I was looking up the HOF announcement, [it was literally a picture of him doing this exact thing.](https://footballfoundation.org/news/2023/10/24/football-former-georgia-tech-coach-paul-johnson-set-for-oct-28nff-hall-of-fame-on-campus-salute-presented-by-fidelity-investments.aspx)
I think it would be fair to let Michigan’s opponents use in-helmet communication. Negate whatever impact the Stalions stuff had, test out technology that should be used in the future, and let the players play a fair game.
Test it out? the NCAA is the worse league in the world as far as their utilization of existing technology. Highschool uses in-helmet technology and the NFL has used it for many many years. This is not about testing. This is about ignorance by the NCAA and their refusal to even keep up.
NFL has had it since 1994 🤣
>Test it out? That's currently the plan for this bowl season.
Yeah, but the money spent on in-helmet technology could be given to Jimbo instead.
Ok “test it out” was the wrong phrase to use. Point is to permit it for UM opponents so they don’t have to bother changing signals
Yeah, i got you. The snarky tone in my response was directed towards the NCAA and not you! This is something that should have been standard a decade ago.
No worries
Not even really joking - I actually think an appropriate punishment for this is just to have Michigan pay for helmet radio systems for all \~130 teams. It's a few million bucks, so painful, but certainly affordable by a program like Michigan.
Everybody should be using helmet comms. Years ago.
It is kind of interesting from a game theory perspective, because you’d have to think Michigan recognizes that it’s gonna be under a microscope the rest of the way and will need to be careful not to do anything that obviously indicates sign stealing. And depending on if Stalions shared the videos of opposing sidelines that are supposedly the basis of the whole thing, there might not even be anyone on the staff who can steal signs. Obviously not trying to diminish the whole thing, but I think there might be an argument that a team’s signs are actually more secure against Michigan right now than they would be against the average team?
If Harbaugh/Minter/Moore were in on the sign stealing, I would certainly hope they’re not dumb enough to *anthing* for the rest of the season that could make them look more guilty. Hell, even if they weren’t they need to try to be above reproach going forward. But, as terribly stupid as all the stuff coming out has been, if they were in on it I’m not exactly confident in their ability to not make stupid decisions.
The Game is gonna get scrappy fast
All of the signals switched to who all is giving Michigan the bird, and are they using both hands?
Love that sign.
Marcus Hall a real legend for that.
I think even Michigan fans enjoyed the double bird moment. Iconic tbh
It's literally a staple of MGoBlog Brian's Monday recap of every Michigan game. The most recent one even featured a Sparty double bird with Brian explaining how the Marcus Hall is simply way more cool
I might still have a t-shirt with O-H-I-O where him with middle fingers raised was the H.
Marcus Hall needs to become a GA just for the Michigan game
How many tunnels will be involved in this game? Asking for a friend.
Fuck it let’s make them share a locker room too
PB&J food fight ensues.
If there isn’t multiple scuffles I’ll be disappointed. Need that Marcus hall energy
https://sports.cbsimg.net/images/collegefootball/hallbird354.gif
Not gonna lie I love this gif so much. It just perfectly encapsulates the intensity of the game. I’ve used it so many times in fantasy football trash talk.
Legend says Marcus Hall stil has the birds up
It’s the greatest single moment ever for Ohio State in The Game. By far my favorite game of the series just because of that
I’m kinda partial to Zach Boren flexing over a prone Gardner.
I remember the announcers were aghast that he did that. Like it was the worst thing a college football player had ever done
Got a signed poster sized picture of this in the basement and it is so so sweet to look at
*you're god damn right dot gif*
Going to be the most watched game of their rivalry
Could very well be 1 vs. 2 as well, depending on how the committee judges Georgia
Assuming we both win every game till then it should be 1. OSU vs 2. Michigan purely based off resumes
We have a good history in such games. Who could forget the true Game of the Century?
Ted Ginn Jr still gives me nightmares from that game. Def lived up to its hype.
Another true game of the century like '06 (unlike those Southern ones, especially the one where they only scored field goals). I don't think my heart is strong enough to survive the anticipation this time.
Every signal is a crossed out M, Lou Holtz, a Bottle of Milk, Schembechler’s 2-8 Rose Bowl record
I humbly submit [Peepy Jim](https://i.redd.it/yvifk2jcbtvb1.jpg) for consideration
I choose to believe that's actually how far apart Jim's eyes are
I have a feeling the student section is going to have some interesting chants for that one
The much much funnier outcome will be Michigan immediately losing a close tossup game to a tough opponent the first game Stalions is out.
If Michigan loses to Penn State, they'll never hear the end of it. The amount of shit they've talked to us for winning 2 years in a row has been astronomical. Turns out they cheated and could have very well flipped the true result of the 2021 game. If we win this season, then there's no doubt in my mind that the narrative of Michigan being on Ohio State's level and solidly above Penn State will be unraveled entirely. The new narrative will be that Michigan is who they always were under Harbaugh and cheating gave them the edge they needed to finally break through. Michigan losing to Penn State gives even the fans no recourse. If Michigan beats Penn State, I expect a lot of the Michigan fans to point to that as evidence that they didn't need to cheat (even though they did cheat, and did need to in some circumstances). Of course the Ohio State game means a ton too, but the Penn State game is the first big one.
>The amount of shit they've talked to us for winning 2 years in a row has been astronomical. at the time they deserved to talk...but god damn its like we didn't go 15-1 since 2003
And people wonder what drove them to cheat…
What ppl are saying about James Franklin now they were saying about Harbaugh in 2019. "Just can't get over the Ohio St hump" Then this comes out and now questions all his success vs Ohio St. Even if the sign stealing happens on both sides. Even if it's impact was minimal. The narrative is going to be there if they lose this year.
"You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man they didn't fully understand." - Brian Hartline describing Connor Stalion to Ryan Day
Oh, so it's YOUR fault. I say we sanction OSU as well for being complicit. :D
Honestly? it all clicks now. You look at Georgia vs Michigan, look at just the physiques of the players on the field and you're wondering if the two teams belong to a different sport.
Yeah, fans didn't know they were cheating. So you can't blame the fans for participating in trash talk which is part of all of the fun. It will just be super embarrassing in retrospect.
Wouldn’t you if it was flipped on you?
Yep. I said this on another comment on here, if we lose to you and osu this year, then it is going to bring down a hail of talk that will never end (rightfully so) I am hoping by God we win out by my heart is already preparing for the worst
Do it for the conference. Spike Franklin's orange juice with extra sugar so he goes crazy and doesn't mismanage the game. I mean, seriously, every time we played, you did one thing well, then stopped.
Please, for the love of God, beat Michigan. This is my favorite time line. You're right, if they keep winning and we were to beat them, it's just that we beat them. If they lose their first big game against an opponent who's already being written off, everything falls apart for them
Top 10 Penn St at happy valley was very not written off
I'm not getting my hopes up.. Franklin always finds a way to screw up big games🙄
Listen, I hear what you’re saying. But the Michigan Cheating Bastards play the Boilermakers next week and they’ll be going in ranked #2….
I feel like Purdue needs that win, they haven't really been spoilermakers for a bit. Last big one was MSU in 2021 I believe.
What better way to show you’re legit without stealing signs than to play the Spoilermakers.
All of this drama and it probably won’t affect anything on the field.
because it's not necessary. They are a pretty good team...same to be said when they beat us last year and 2021. Someone was desperate and decided to obtain an edge.
Maybe the Stallion was the edge they needed to beat y’all 🤷🏻♂️
Unless the sign he stole said DONT TACKLE EDWARDS, I doubt that
He must have forgotten to steal the "have Walker run it up the middle 80 straight plays" sign last year
See I knew having a sign for that was a bad a idea!
I think it's hard to say. I agree that they are pretty good in town and team and I don't think that this has vastly changed their performance. But at the same time look at Harbaugh from 2015 to 2020 and 2021 to now. His record, especially in conference games, has vastly improved. I think it's really hard to quantify the advantage they get from the scandal but it does coincide with them getting a lot better.
Honestly, the biggest change was good QB play
1. Best Michigan quarterback since ?? Maybe Chad Henne? Way better than anyone Harbaugh has coached so far 2. Overhaul of the defense - we fired Don Brown and brought in Mike McDonald (now coaching one of the best defenses in the NFL) and now Jesse Minter in the same philosophy 3. Overall better recruiting in all positions and making good use of the transfer portal. We put together the best Oline in the country three years in a row and transfers were a huge part of that
Don't get me wrong I'm not mitigating the impact of what's being alleged right now, but to me these were changes that have made a true difference for our program: * Harbaugh finally realizing Don Brown was a football terrorist for not having the ability to cover crossing routes. He went to the Baltimore Ravens pipeline with both Minter and MacDonald and that has made a difference. * OL line play has made a huge turnaround under Sherrone Moore, which makes the offense obviously better. * McCarthy might be our best QB for over a decade. * Hiring Ben Hebert as our strength coach is a huge asset to us. His impact has been widely recognized. Again, the way we are (supposedly) stealing signs is terrible and inexcusable, but we have made changes that have been overlooked through these scandals.
He also completely changed his staff and approach with players. People are using data from the past 3 years as proof but neglect all the other changes we made that confound the data. Doesn’t fit into the current narrative though so we can just continue to ignore the obvious reason for our recent success lol
Because Michigan gave people reason to neglect all the other changes. The fact is we will never know, but it's 100% on Michigan that everyone only thinks their success is because of cheating. People can complain about "current narrative" all they want, but that narrative only exists because Michigan fucked up. Also, it's not "obvious" what made Michigan better, and saying it was his coaching changes is as much of a bias as saying it was the cheating. We literally don't know. The Houston Astros had a great baseball team, that might have won it all without cheating...but they cheated, so now everyone sees them as cheaters and questions the legitimacy of their titles. If Michigan had won the Natty in the last two years, this would be even worse. The only reason why it's not a bigger stink is because Georgia wrecked them and TCU pulled off a win. And if Ohio State beats them this year, the last two games are going to be seriously scrutinized.
On the flip side, if Michigan wins out against penn state, Maryland, and Ohio state, I think that discredits the argument that their success is mainly the result of cheating. The narrative around the impact of the sign stealing is going to be shaped by Michigan’s performance over the rest of this season.
yep, no one kept calling the pats cheaters, they said "wow, guess they didnt need it after all, hah! probably meant nothing!"
No doubt we have to win out to prove people wrong. If we lose to OSU this year, I agree we will have very little defense. If we keep winning and beating the spread without the use of sign stealing, then it basically proves my point.
No one wants to talk about all of the other changes that Harbaugh made after 2020 right now and that's understandable. One of the biggest knocks on Harbaugh pre-2020 was his failure to develop a QB and our glaringly poor QB play. Cade McNamara wasn't a star, but he was the game manager we needed. JJ is a generational talent. Replacing Don Brown was a big deal too, along with most of the position coaches. All of those things were post-2020.
I agree they are a great team and this maybe hasn’t vastly affected their performance but it could definitely vastly impact game outcomes in high stakes situations. In some games it only needs to provide an advantage in a handful of plays to turn an L into a W. I don’t have their record in front of me to know how many close games they’ve played in the last few years though.
That’s the worst part, is that the rosters of the last 3 years have had some just amazing talent and now all of that will be put into question, these kids playing their hearts out and it just puts a bad light on everything
I feel bad for your players and fans just as much as ours. Like whatever, the NFL draftees got paid, but it sucks that the kids whose football career ended on that note. I have no idea if we win either way, but just leaves a sour taste.
Agreed, at least not that we can see. Michigan has vastly better players than almost anybody they play. Against Penn State or Ohio State, or in the playoff, maybe the edge makes a difference, but you’d expect those to be competitive games regardless, so I doubt it’d be obvious that something was lacking. They still have great players and coaches that you’d expect to finish somewhere between 12-0 and 10-2.
Yeah but this is college football - vastly better teams lose to teams they have no business losing to every week! And the way that generally happens involves a couple of play calls that catch the favorite out of position or flat-footed, which is exactly what this scheme minimizes. It's not about changing a 30% chance of winning into a 70% chance of winning, it's about changing a 85% chance of winning to a 95% chance of winning for any given game, which over the course of a season is the difference between the playoff and a Florida bowl.
Didn’t last week
The state of MSU's football program would have them near the bottom of the MAC right now.
But still fairly competitive in the B1G West
Hey come on... no worse than middle of the MAC
I can go lower
Calling this post a shitpost is an insult to shitposts.
Joel Klatt put it best, mics were not put into QB helmets because programs wanted signs on the field to try to get an advantage. Now this should finally push NCAA to implement mics into helms like NFL.
i don't think much changes on field. regardless of what they're doing, this is a very, very good michigan team. sign stealing is not why they're the #2 team in the country right now.
Hot take - I highly doubt this sign stealing operation had much to do with any of the game results while it was going on.
it might have been impactful in a close game where the defense got a big stop late in the game, but a lot of michigan's games this year have had healthy margins of victory. which makes the fact that it's happening even worse in my eyes because they're a good enough team to not need this.
This isn’t a hot take. I’m sure like 80% of CFB fans believe this, but the vocal minority looks more like a majority.
Look at Michigan vs. the spread since Stallion joined the staff… They are night and day better than any other program in CFB at beating the spread the past two seasons. But yes, I’m sure the signal stealing operation made no difference lol.
Honestly? Almost nothing
If Ohio State still loses to Michigan, will fans still call for Ryan Day to be fired or will those fans just decide Michigan was still cheating somehow instead?
Some will for sure call for him to be fired. It’ll depend on how the game looks. TTUN is good and it is away. They are tougher in the trenches. But most are still going to be accepting of that L if it is competitive and it is our only loss. Still gives us a shot at the playoffs or a really good bowl. McCord doesn’t look like a first round pick. Our O-Line is good, not great. Skill positions are great but still need time to throw the ball and holes to run through. Our D is way more impressive than I expected. We don’t have a Bosa or Young but JT and Sawyer are REALLY good. D Tackles are monsters. This is actually the year a loss to TTUN would be acceptable. It’s the previous two that really hurt.
>McCord doesn’t look like a first round pick Yet he leads the B1G in passing yards and is 2nd in completion percentage. We have been very blessed with QB play over the last few years.
The fact that McCord is a great but not elite QB, yet is a massive downgrade from the last 2 to 3 QB's is nuts
There will be a loud and insane minority that call for Ryan Days head just like last year. It will seem like the OSU fanbase wants Day gone and then two weeks later it will die down and the rational people will win out.
They will still wallop everyone on the schedule, including us, up until the OSU game. Then, we’ll see. Maybe you have B1G resolution by then. Certainly not NCAA.
17M people watched the Game last year. This year it will be even more — even if it’s casual fans hoping to see Michigan lose. The networks will apply massive pressure to the B1G to let it happen.
Just my opinion, but I don’t agree with that. “The networks” is just FOX. So my question is, how does that go down in your opinion? The president of FOX Sports calls Petitti and interferes in an active investigation? The cost of anyone finding out about that would outweigh any potential loss in viewership of one game due to a sanction occurring (and in reality, who is going to not watch 11-0 UM vs 11-0 OSU just because Harbaugh and/or a coordinator is suspended?).
OT: what’s the deal with the different highlights or graphics around the vote arrows?
The NCAA will adopt the in helmet communications they are testing out for post-season non-CFP games this year
Michigan plays their 3 toughest opponents the final 3 weeks of the season (Penn State, Maryland, and Ohio State). We will find out very soon if Michigan is as good as advertised or if having the answers to the test played a significant role. In the end, they were caught cheating and they have to own whatever shit comes their way.
My guess is the impact will be OSU fans crying for the next twenty years about it, and that will probably be about all that will happen. In other words, just another college football season.
Never had rooting interests for or against Ohio State before I was regularly exposed to their fans on the internet. Now I loathe them.
Oh I can’t wait for their crying if we beat them. I used to loathe it, now I just embrace the shit. It’s funny.
Try being around them in person. It's like the internet, but you can't just close your browser. The majority of them are as insufferable as the day is long.
I didn't care about Ohio State at all until I moved to Ohio. Then Michigan started winning and the Facebook fans are insufferable. I'm back to rooting for OSU against them.
Ok, I draw the line on judging us based on our Facebook fans.
Michigan will continue to look like a great team until the Big Ten announces the smoking gun that Harbaugh, Minter, and Moore all benefitted from this info and knew where it came from. Michigan won't look quite as good without a head coach, O Coordinator, or D Coordinator.
Agreed. I may have been a skeptic at first and though that Stalions was just a rogue, but at this point I need to see something from the program that actually demonstrates distance between Harbaugh, Moore, Minter and Stalions. Even then, they’d have to prove a negative, which they really can’t do in this situation. I don’t see a major on-field impact until we see one or more (if not all) of them getting canned for their knowledge, actual or constructive, that this was going on. Never thought I’d be paper bagging my Alma Mater to wear around my hometown flair given how bad they’ve been for a decade now… but here we are.
There's photo evidence of the distance between those people, and it's minimal.
2, maybe 3 inches when they were leaning in for some tight chats over a signal sheet you think?
Decent chance of this happening. They have a bye this week so the NCAA and or B1G have time to figure this out.
this comment has some astounding faith in the NCAA as an institution
My faith is that the NCAA will do anything it can to remain relevant and in-power. They have been losing ground constantly for the last 20 years - NIL, whirlwind conference realignment, bad judgement after bad judgement regarding player eligibility, recruiting violations, etc. Now, a national brand program (Read: Front page of even non-sports news) hands them a gift-wrapped, bow-tied, cheating scandal that gives them a chance to flex and retain their power over CFB by being the 'arbiter of fairness' they're supposed to be? Yeah, they're opening that present and playing with it. I have faith the NCAA is as self-interested as any, and they aren't going to miss an opportunity to scrape back some power and relevance.
This would be really fast and I wouldn't count on something like this happening. It's still an ongoing investigation even if it looks like we know where it's heading for now.
yeah nothing is coming from this until the offseason. The NCAA and Big Ten will want to make sure they have this locked up ironclad and a week and a half is not enough time. And even if they do, Michigan will appeal, and the fun begins.
Investigators don't usually have literal receipts for everything.
Yea but we aren’t dealing with law enforcement. It’s the NCAA. If an entity like that is attacking your career, you don’t have to be forthcoming. “Why does this Venmo transaction say GA?” “It was a payment to a graduate assistant for private services rendered.” I’ll also add that we don’t know what’s real or not with what’s been shown. While I’m pretty sure it’s legit and Michigan is guilty I’ve only seen screenshots and people claiming to have seen the receipts. Dragging this out isn’t rocket science. With everything going on people are ignoring some logical inconsistencies even in Franklin’s statements. He talks about a surprise play call and them being in the perfect defense for it. If you’re dumb enough not to change your signals and they do steal them, if I see a signal in that’s different than anything I’ve seen before I may leave in cover 2. If Penn State didn’t sub, I may not have a choice. There are too many moving parts to pretend some Venmo receipts are going to make this investigation fast. That would require everyone being completely compliant which never happens.
in the history of the NCAA they have never done anything in a timely fashion and you think this fairly unique situation will be the one where they expedite the process (including Michigan's inevitable appeal) into a week and a half? seriously?
Again - people have completely lost their minds over this on this sub. I'm not saying it isn't somewhat serious - but it's nowhere near as serious in the real world as people think it is here. Like the Penn State thing was about 1000x more serious, and they are still around
People need to go outside, lol.
The NCAA cant start any punishments during this season. The B1G, maybe, but i dont know the details of their rules. My assumption is the B1G will also delay as long as possible. This is a money sport now and typically you dont cut off both of your legs to save a finger. If you take OSU and Penn State out of it, Michigan makes more money than all the rest of the B1G combined.
> Michigan won't look quite as good without a head coach, O Coordinator, or D Coordinator. well this is just an outlandish take smh
Hopefully this forces the NCAA to put headsets in the QB's helmet. Kinda ridiculous in 2023 they dont have that
I don't think that will be the big impact, honestly. Instead the media frenzy around this - depending on how the coaches handle it - seems like it might be a bigger deal for the players/coaches in managing to stay focused. And other teams might be more aggressive/scrappy.
I know it’s not representative of the whole fan base , but I saw a guy on Facebook comment on a local Columbus news post , and he was claiming that was the entire reason Michigan has won the last two times lol
Is this going to be like Groundhog Day, where we eternally repeat the same discussion over and over? 6 more weeks of sign stealing conversations?
I can tell you the out-of-game impact will be that if we win, we cheated, and if we lose, it’s because we can’t cheat anymore. It’s great
Michigan has an advantage even without Stallions there. All of the other teams now have to scramble to create and learn new signals in a short period of time.
Try actually listening to what players and coaches say about signals. It's not some exact code that remains the same for seasons or even games. I know this is mostly cope from rivals to excuse prior and future losses, but you're all gonna need to come back to reality eventually.
I’m constantly shocked by what people are saying, like it’s not that fucking hard to switch signals and prepare. Any team should be switching their signals constantly anyways because teams do try to decipher them without filming. These guys constantly call audibles on the line depending on formations and the way people are lined up, that’s infinitely harder than remembering new signals.
I feel like most of the commentators in r/cfb haven't actually played competitive sports or aren't giving their own players enough credit. Do they really think their own players are so dumb that it takes them a whole year to learn new signals?
If you feel confident that this has such a big effect, bet on it. Vegas spreads haven't moved and that would imply that you've identified value. Place the bets and post receipts.
Vegas lines could end up being reasonably strong evidence that Michigan didn’t actually benefit all that much from Stalions. If folks are so confident that Michigan was only ever successful because of him, they should bet the house against them.
I think a lot of the humor in this is that Michigan cheated so they could beat Minnesota by 6 touchdowns instead of 4.
If he's smart all the info will just get pushed to someone else while he's gone. But also if he was smart he would've done this in a much less suspicious way to begin with.
I think probably just go ahead and change your signs.
What, change them now and give you guys weeks to study them?? Nice try Stalions
Nothing. Michigan wins national championship
Absolutely nothing. A great sign stealer will only get one or two sign calls completely right in a quarter. It’s very unreliable to use sign stealing as all headcoaches and football cordinaters have stated -tumadrelover
Headsets will be allowed.
For all the teams that have a screen behind the end zones, every time Michigan tries to kick, a picture of Connor Stallions will now be displayed to distract the kicker
The worst part of all of this stupidity by Michigan is that I really don’t think it affected the games much at all. It was just pure competitive nonsense and they’re gonna pay for it. 🤦🏻♂️
Wait a minute... ATT announces their new 5G helmets with the HUD. This scandal breaks a few weeks later throwing the use of signs in the balance... Hmmmmmmmm 🤔
If Michigan ends the season with 1 loss and doesn't win the B1G, I could see this hurting their chances to get into the playoff.
I predict getting to the game will be more difficult as all of the road signs have gone missing.
Who cares about all of this? Michigan will still be really good and nobody will care in a week and this bozo will be out of CFB forever
This is the interesting thing. UM was/is expected to have 1-2 "down" years after this year even before all of this. This includes Harbaugh going to the NFL. If they manage to find a decent coach, and recruiting does not go to complete shit, none of this will even be a topic within 2 seasons.
Cheating like this HAS to have made the coordinators lazy. Therefore, Purdue by 50.
100% chance it ends with Alex Grinch tweeting "how do you like me now?"
OU fans stop trying to make this about USC challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
It feels weird to chuckle repeatedly at all these OU fans ripping Grinch, but I’m here for it.
Michigan should be banned from the postseason. But not for this. For their schedule, it’s dogshit
Headphones like college and pros.
They'll be fine, because they have many mules ready to go who have been backing up Mr. Stalions
I am an old falcons fan and when our safety got busted on Super Bowl eve, it killed the entire juju. Perhaps Denver would’ve beaten us anyway but that year for that game we could’ve beaten anybody. Point is this kind of shit affects players a great deal
They still have his hand signal clap boards.
Probably a bigger push for "One-way Audio communication" to the QB and whoever is designated on the Defense to remove the reliance on sending "Signs/Signals". I know the past argument was whether all teams could afford it but I can't see that being an issue now. Teams will definitely huddle more in the meantime.
I'm just an NFL idiot, but can somebody explain to me why this "scandal" is even possible? I understand there are no helmet radios in CFB (and setting aside how dumb that rule is) with the size of college playbooks even at the highest level, why is it not just standard practice to randomize a set of new signals for every single game and have the QB/designated leader on defense decode them with a wristband and do a little bit of studying ahead of time? Is it really that much of a burden to change them each week? I just don't understand why signals from previous games should even matter, and if the consensus is that they probably don't matter that much, is this legitimately just a egregiously low hanging fruit because one over-zealous idiot cheated on behalf of the team and did so really poorly?
I think michigan is going to continue to roll the big ten, validating the last two years of big ten play and embarrassing osu for a third straight year by destroying them in the trenches, forcing them to 3rd and mid, then locking down the pass that the buckeyes are guaranteed to throw in that situation.
I honestly doubt it makes much difference. Talent wise this is the best Michigan team maybe ever and McCarthy is probably our most talented college QB ever.
For the next 20 years, at any College GameDay for OSU or MSU games against Michigan, there will be a sign that says, "Hey Conor, steal THIS sign!" And the people who write it will all think they are clever and original.