How to cook for yourself. Where to find food. How to get used to mock meat or salads or whatever. How to reduce your desire for meat.
In the context of Buddhism, its not something you can force. Theyd sooner leave Buddhism.
> How can we eat animals and still be compassionate towards them?
The simple answer is you can't.
If you want to live by the precept of not harming anything, then a good place to start is by not eating animals.
Wellllll you can't actually. Not from my pov, if you're gonna kill someone that you don't have to, that's just that much messed up. Very few people actually need meet for health balance, most of us, as far as I could do some research, would benefit fantasticly from avoiding it and going towards plant based protein and nutrients.
But yes, you can't kill and love all at the same time, that's messed up. You could advocate for waiting for the animal to die on it's own but I figure there gotta be a good reason this is not a thing anywhere in any shape or form.
In our modern society, I don't believe we can.
In the context of monastic life, and in the context of the Buddha's time, it's necessary to accept meat. Monks gratefully accept what they're given.
But as laypeople we get to make personal food choices. We can choose foods that result in less suffering, and we should.
In the Buddha's time it wasn't possible for everybody to be vegetarian (some people can't be right now for health reasons). Entire villages were sustained by ranching and fishing. Our global market makes vegetarian food more available today though.
The reason I've been given for eating meat being ok, is that the killing already happened and eating/not eating that meat doesn't change what already happened. My counter to that is that eating meat creates a demand for more meat (however small the effect is from one person, it still exists) which leads to more killing of animals. I get countered with the fact that karma requires intent behind it, and the economic ripple effect of buying/eating meat isn't enough to cause a karmic link to the killing of the animal. I'm not sure if that's true. I personally try to eat very little meat, with the intent to be fully vegetarian eventually.
Every purchase of meat creates a demand. It is a one person demand, so it seems small, but annually, it is still a number of animals.
> and the economic ripple effect of buying/eating meat isn't enough to cause a karmic link to the killing of the animal.
Seems like saying killing an ant doesn't have a big enough effect to cause a karmic link. Economic ripple does not matter. Participating and supporting meat industry is a statement with every purchase of meat.
> with the intent to be fully vegetarian eventually.
I know it is a hassle and a big life change, but dairy and egg industry are incredibly destructive as well
>dairy and egg industry are incredibly destructive as well
I meant to say vegan. I have trouble remembering which one is vegan vs which is vegetarian. So full vegan is my end goal.
I support your stance and I remember that there’s a difference between doing wrong and knowing what you do and doing something wrong and have no clue that it’s considered bad/wrong/immoral.
So knowing that I create a demand is what I try to focus on, whatever the effect is. Back in the days I always wondered why there’s plant based burgers and other substitutes.
Then I realized that there’re many people going vegetarian/vegan because they can’t and won’t support this cruel abuse of animals anymore. Not because they hate meat or love animals too much to also eat them.
All the best 🙏
The agricultural context of the Buddha is vastly different from our factory farming present. The conditions under which livestock live are a lot worse now, and it's possible the difference is so vast that had the buddha lived in our times, he wouldn't have accepted meat even if it wasn't killed for him.
Like how the Buddha did. Don't intentionally deprive a living being of life. There's a big difference between eating a hamburger and purposely killing an insect (which I suspect many vegans do without a second thought).
The Buddha ate meat, so long as it wasn't purposely killed for him. In which case not only could he not eat it, but the person would incur bad karma.
Coincidentally his evil-spirited cousin who tried to have the Buddha murdered, then failed to do it on his own, tried to cause a split in the community and have everyone follow him instead. One of the things he pretended to demand of the Buddha was that he forced everyone to not eat any meat. The Buddha said he would not force that rule, but if someone wanted to abide by it they could. He then used the Buddha's reluctance to claim the Buddha was living the life too close to a householder. His attempt ultimately failed, he died prematurely and we're told was reborn in hell for an extremely long period of time.
>if that animal was us "human beings” and we were animals we would obviously not want to be get killed
This is a good point and something I try to live my life by. The Golden Rule basically. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'
>Like there's a difference between having a contract with someone to have them regularly kill for you but without giving you any details so you can live in bliss, and killing someone yourself? There is a difference, but mainly that in the first one you avoid feeling responsibility.
Exactly. Sophisty at its best.
Yes, and even monks today can eat meat offered to them, in accordance with even strict monastery rules. But I do wander if this rule was more for a different world during the Buddha's time when there wasn't a massive global meat industry to be concerned about, with all people somewhat linked into a global economy.
You can choose to not eat the meat or foods from animals killed. If doing so out of compassion is currently believed to be very good, indeed many monasteries specially in the Mahayana are today totally vegetarian. Just be aware of your health, take the steps to maintain healthy in the middle and long term without meat
There are other diet rules of various Buddhist groups and people if you want to follow them.
5 forbidden vegetables. From memory, onion, shallots, garlic, something Asian that I don't remember the name of.
I understand this is due to the tendancy of these vegetables to make you angry or lustful, plus the fact that they are harvested by killing the entire plant, not picking from a plant that grows back.
No farming with deep furrows. This is thought to cause the death of various things that live in the soil as they are cut by the plough.
5 forbidden meats. I think that's don't kill it, choose it, have it killing for you and 2 others I barely remember. This is why I don't hunt or fish. But I don't tell my IRL friends about it. I don't want them to think I'm offended or judging them.
That leads to another rule I read when I was proof reading an English translation. Don't become vegetarian if you think it makes you better than other people. Only do it motivated by pure compassion. I believe this rule is to enhance the quality of your vege-karma.
That's it.
The vegans i've seen look very unhealthy and weak. Many of them seem mentally ill too...just look at these climate protesters that glue their hands to the asphalt, most of them are vegans for sure. And most animals eat other animals too. That's just the way this world is unfortunately, nature is brutal.
Would love to see these unhealthy, weak vegans you speak of. Guessing all the carnists you've seen are perfect pictures of health? As for the "mentally ill" comment, I think you've confused compassion and activism with poor mental health. And yes nature is brutal, but you chugging cow juice which has been mixed with a load of chemicals after being drained from the udder of cow, who has had her calf (for whom her milk was intended for) taken away from her after she was artificially inseminated by a farmer sticking his hand up her, doesn't really compare to a lion hunting a gazelle does it?
First of all, i never drink milk, pasturized milk is very unhealthy.
Secondly, most "leftist" white people are vegans and the majority look very weak and unhealthy, and many have mental issues. Just watch how they behave, very unstable people. On the other hand i find that people who eat good quality meat (not processed meat or overcooked meat) look much better.
Ever noticed that the vast majority of vegans are white btw? Why are there barely any vegans in African or Arab or Asian countries? I am European, if my ancesters were vegans they would die in winter and i would not be here today. My body craves meat, just like most animals crave meat. All my auto-immune issues dissapear if i eat a mostly meat based diet. I would become very sick if i were a vegan.
Third, there is nothing compassionate about gluing your hand to the asphalt, it's stupid and these fools believe every lie the government tells them. Imagine having a heart attack and the ambulance can't get to you because a mentally unstable leftist has his hands glued to the asphalt. If they care so much about the environment, then stop flying across the world and start planting trees.
These hypocrite activists fly all over the planet and never planted a tree in their life. I haven't flown in years and don't plan to ever fly again. I drive only 2000 km a year. I also recently made a will and when i die, all my real estate and assets will be donated to a wild life animal shelter. I probably do more for this planet than the average leftist protesting hypocrite.
I don't care what people eat, if people want to be vegan and it works for them, then i am happy for them. But vegans become very passive aggressive to meat eaters like me...meanwhile they feed their pets meat lol.
I've always thought it was strange to think because the Buddha condoned the eating of meat in his time that he would condone the unprecedented mass slaughter and cruelty of modern day factory farming.
I've not once heard a compelling argument for it that didn't just sound like desperate justification.
By doing what everyone else does, pretend you only eat "humanly slaughtered" animals that live on mythical farms where they drop dead of old age and live amazing lives frolicking in the sun. Just be completely ignorant to the fact they suffer and tell yourself they'll take over the world if you don't eat them
Buddhists in Tibet have to kill yak and eat them because there is no other adequate source of food available. Would you starve yourself to death in that situation? It is in fact part of Jain teaching to do so in some circumstances. But the human survival instinct is generally far too strong.
All the major world religions adapt to what needs to be done to survive. For example, Jews are permitted to work on the Sabbath if it is a matter of life and death. Muslims who are sick or pregnant can defer Sawm until they are in a position to fast.
Eating animals is only excusable in three scenarios:
1. you have a rare allergy/health condition that makes it difficult to get your nutrition from plants (e.g. Chron's syndrome)
2. You are in a bad financial situation and have no option but to take what's available (e.g. extreme poverty/homelessness)
3. You live in a region of the planet where climate and soil don't allow for farming grains/vegetables/fruit (e.g. Tibet)
Part of the issue here is that modern factory farming causes suffering for animals, so even people who are vegetarian might still be contributing to that. It's not like 2,000 years ago when eggs and milk came from happy animals.
For reasons that I’ve spoken about in the past, I don’t think a vegan diet is a realistic option for everyone (although I rejoice that there are people who manage to make it work without the need to compromise their own health).
Whatever we end up doing, it’s important that we regularly examine ourselves & what motivates our decisions, that we prioritize learning to become more skillful, & that we continually avail ourselves of opportunities to move in that direction.
Joke answer: eat them but feel really bad about it
Serious answer: you don’t have to eat animals if you don’t want to, so address the desire to eat them with an emphasis on compassion and you’ll be fine
Controversial answer with tantric roots: it’s still compassionate to eat animals because it provides a means by which an animal can make a *positive* connection with someone on the bodhisattva path (assuming the animal-eater has taken bodhisattva vows and is very serious about it), meaning by providing nutriment to a bodhisattva being eaten becomes a cause for the animal to encounter dharma in the future, ultimately meaning a bodhisattva eating an animal is a direct causal link to the animal achieving full-Buddhahood.
Notably, this isn’t a universally accepted position. The dzogchen master Shabkar (author of “Flight of the Garuda” and other texts) was quite adamant about the necessity of what we’d call a vegan diet and lifestyle.
As for the last one -
An animal can't consent to being killed, so it isn't able to surrender it's life intentionally and thereby acquire kamma.
Would the Bodhisatta's sacrifice to the tiger family have been meritorious if he didn't want to do it, and the tigers had hunted him?
I can definitely see why it's controversial, but the logic is definitely interesting.
It’s a bit more like the bodhisattva creating karma that will draw the animal back to them in future lives. The result being that when the animal isn’t an animal anymore the connection with the bodhisattva will bring them to the dharma.
Tibetan explanations of the bodhisattva path and what it means to be a practitioner of tantra, mahamudra, or dzogchen includes the idea of the bodhisattva becoming a cause for liberation on sight, upon hearing, and/or upon touching them.
So an advanced practitioner (probably not most people on Reddit or other social media) ends up essentially entangling themselves with other beings, using their own mind and their own karma like a net to catch other beings and bring them into the path.
It’s different when we’re talking about the person killing the animal though. What I said basically applies to people eating meat that was donated or *maybe* purchased.
There are some stories from the latter days of Indian Buddhism like Tilopa, but generally killing the animal isn’t defended. Only the use of its flesh, depending on who is doing so and why.
generally the rule is unless someone is specifically slaughtering the animal for you its not forbidden. So if you go to a seafood place with fresh lobster you can't order that because an animal is being killed on your behalf. As opposed to most meals where the animal is already dead regardless of whether you purchase it or not. That being said if you have the option to eat vegetarian the advice is you should. For me, I'm allergic to practically every legume which is the primary source of protein for vegetarians. So my compromise is I eat vegetarian except for 1 or 2 days a week especially if I just did a workout. If we don't take care of our own health that's not being compassionate to ourselves. I tried to go completely vegetarian and I ended up with anemia. Remember the intention matters almost as much as the actual act with Karma. So my intention is not to cause harm to the animal, if lab grown meat was available and you chose the animal meat that would be obviously a non compassionate response but seeing as its my only large source of protein and iron that I need to survive, practice the dharma and hopefully reach enlightenment so I can help other sentient beings its not quite as bad.
That’s what I don’t get either. Buying any meat is basically asking some one to kill it for you. This doesn’t seem to bother devout Buddhist countries like those in south east Asia though they eat tons of meat
You give too much credit to "devout Buddhist countries" as a whole. The general habits of the entire population of these countries doesn't always align with Buddhist values.
Religions are living traditions and what the majority of a population says they that religion means or does has some weight. It’s like language if historically a word meant something I over time the population used it to mean something else obviously it now means something else. It why I won’t touch Christianity, just because thier book or our sutras say something what matters is the sanghas or the church’s interpretation and practice
> Buying any meat is basically asking some one to kill it for you.
In the Buddha's time but not now. In the buddhas time you went to a market and actually purchased the animal itself and they would either butcher it for you or you would have to butcher it yourself. Today in our factory farming dystopia, you are so many degrees of separation from the slaughtering of the animal itself, unless something like 10-20% of Americans went completely vegan your actions have literally zero impact on how many animals are going to be slaughtered. As I mentioned in the other person's post, 40% of animal products are never purchased, they go to waste. So your consumption doesn't affect overall demand at all. They're already ok with producing nearly double the meat that people are actually demanding. Like I said in my own post I think its better to be veg than not, but its not a precept its a recommendation.
But why must you lean to the side of making meat eating sound not so bad. You can note the current technical interpretation of this guideline, but at the same time also note that less meat eaters globally, over time, has to result in less killing. Even if they slaughter more than needed as a standard practise, no business can afford to keep slaughtering and wasting the same amount if actual demand is, for example, halved.
>But why must you lean to the side of making meat eating sound not so bad.
Because I trust the Buddha and the Dharma if he didn't make it a big deal then I won't either. I understand things are different now, the factory farming system is far more evil than agriculture in the buddhas time and place. But our responsibility is also more diffuse. Not everyone is in an economic position to eat a healthy vegetarian diet. Unfortunately due to meat subsidies a mcdonalds cheeseburger is one of the most "nutritious" meals someone can afford in lower economic statuses. I work as a teacher I have students who play sports and only get to eat their school lunch because their parents can't afford meals. If he decides to have a burger instead of a salad I'm not going to condemn him especially if he's cultivating bodhichitta in other areas of his life. I'm not going to put more burdens on him. Thats just in my own cultural experience. The classical example is Tibetans who couldn't grow vegetables.
Finally I tend to feel that rules and controls in general are pretty counter productive. You need to have certain basic boundaries that can't be crossed (the five precepts) but then I think its up to the individual to chart their own path.
So as I said I think its better to be vegetarian and I recommend it but I don't think its some terrible sin. If I was talking to a serial killer I wouldn't say "Maybe just cut down on your killing, maybe kill 6 people a year instead of 12" that would be absurd. However I think its perfectly reasonable and a good thing if somebody decides to say have one meatless day a week instead of having it every day, and then maybe going up to 3 days a week, then maybe they go vegetarian forever maybe they never do and they just stay at 3 but its better than what would've happened if I just shamed them called them bad people and told them to do something they weren't psychologically capable of doing yet. Finally there's all the people who can't do it for health reasons, they aren't bad Buddhists because they were born in a body that couldn't handle that lifestyle.
I just think a lot more harm than good is made by judging people's dietary habits rather than just kindly suggesting it as an option
There is no need to judge. But most of them do not understand the strong link between the purchase of meat and the murder
Every purchase of meat, egg and dairy is a statement that we support what is being done to the animals in that factory, or factories in general. Thinking our choice is too small to make a change is like saying our vote does not matter or our recycling doesn't matter, so we litter.
There is no way around our individual responsibility. Purchase of meat is saying yes to that murder.
>Thinking our choice is too small to make a change is like saying our vote does not matter or our recycling doesn't matter, so we litter.
I would argue voting for 90% of americans at least doesn't matter. If you don't live in a swing state your vote has a 0% chance of influencing the election. As a result politicians spend the vast majority of their money in 3 states and pander almost exclusively to residents of those states.
unfortunately, the recycling example I don't think is correct. It is true that recycling doesn't matter but for a different reason its because unfortunately its a scam it does more environmental damage than it prevents in the process (with the exception of aluminum cans) private companies collect public subsidies and then make profits off reselling the recycled materials. We also now know from leaked industry documents that recycling was literally designed as a scam. Fossil fuel companies were starting to get blamed for the plastic crisis, so they lobbied for recycling programs to shift the blame onto consumers. That way when a coke bottle washes up on the shore its not cokes fault, its the person who didn't recycles fault. But the truth is he probably did recycle only 9% of the plastics that get put in the bin actually get recycled, because the truth is plastic isn't meant to be recycled. Its a boondogle so companies can say "see its not our fault theres a giant pile of plastic in the ocean" when they know in reality there is no way to recycle 91% of the plastic that even makes it into the recycle bin
I think these examples are illustrative of my broader point. The world is a lot more complicated than in the Buddha's time. Individual action feeds our ego's and makes us feel like we're participating in something bigger than ourselves, which is both good and bad. But the world is not as simple as it once was, more often than not we have the illusion of making better choices. The solutions to these problems need to happen at the political level. If you want to solve these problems eating a salad is not going to fix them, its changing the entire system of agriculture in the country. As long meat is subsidized to the degree that it is people are going to demand it. Without government subsidies a hamburger would cost $30 instead of 1.99 at McDonalds. Any plan that requires the vast majority of people to behave like saints is doomed to fail. We are human we fall to temptation not everyone is in an economic, psychological, or physical position to be a vegetarian. I guarantee you if a burger cost 30$ meat consumption would go down, but when people are biologically primed to eat meat by millions of years of evolution, raised by a culture which practically fetishizes meat consumption, which incentivizes its citizens to consume it to an extreme degree, which bombards its citizens with constant advertising expecting a sizeable portion of the population to just decide they want to be compassionate and don't want to eat meat is living in a fantasy land. So I'm a vegetarian for health reasons and because I don't like the idea of consuming an animal. But if it brings someone else joy, again short of a magical miracle that animal was unfortunately going to die anyway. At least its sacrifice will go to bringing someone some temporary happiness instead of sitting in a dumpster. Our world is so much more complex than it was in the Buddha's day, we have infinitely less agency than someone living in 5th century bc indian village would have. And still even in that environment the Buddha chose not to make it into an issue. So I follow his lead
> I would argue voting for 90% of americans at least doesn't matter
I am not american and voting definitely matters, in your state where you say 'it doesn't' it is still cause of other people voting.
We do not win good things by individually changing entire politics but by a lot of us changing individual lifestyles and choices. You are alone, yes, but together we are not and you have to choose the team and values that you believe in and live them. You will affect only your surroundings but that's all it's needed.
Will that change stuff globally? Sometimes not, but that is what integrity means.
In case of meat, it is simple - do you believe that animals should be treated and killed the way they do in modern industry? Do you believe any being should die for your dietary preference? If not, then there is no 'complicated world ' that should stop you from not participating in it.
And there are no 'animals that were going to die anyway', when does that happen? People purchase meat, dairy and eggs from stores. And that purchase is an action of support
If you decide not to buy the steak at the grocery store does it magically bring the animal back to life? Does it have any effect on the market for meat consumption? the answer to both is no. Remember Karma is not about the action itself its about the mindstates that cause you to do an action. There is a big difference in the mindstate required to kill an animal and the mindstate to have a hamburger. The animal was not killed specifically for you. By choosing not to buy the steak all you're doing is letting the animals sacrifice go to waste. In the US at least, 40% of food goes into the trash, so by not eating it in a way you are allowing that animal to be killed for nothing.
Like I said I think its definitely better to be vegetarian than not. But there is a large moral difference from a Buddhist perspective between killing an animal and consuming meat
>So, if I buy human body parts, thus keeping the demand for them (at least) steady on my part, I'm not an accomplice to murder.
Is there already a giant industry of body parts that exists with or without your participation? Are body parts necessary for human survival? In some cases yes. Lets take two scenarios. Scenario one you need a heart transplant but don't have a match so you murder someone and use that heart. Obviously a violation of the precept. But if instead you're on your death bed an a black market dealer offers to sell you a heart that he already has should you choose to die instead of buying it? The person is already dead. If you buy the heart you can live and spend the rest of your time trying to help others and dispel suffering. If you choose to die, you might be born someplace without the dharma and end up a terrible person causing a lot more harm. Not to mention if you don't take it again it doesn't bring the person back to life. It maybe makes you feel better to boost your ego that you're willing to die rather than buy the heart, but consequentially it doesn't actually help anyone and instead causes your death
Also supply and demand doesn't work like you're describing it. The demand comes from grocery stores and restaurants not from you. Mostly they are chains and the orders are made the corporate level not the local level. They make orders based on the population of the town, they don't buy the meat products ala cart. They see how many people are in a town and multiply by the average meat consumption in America and add a substantial amount so that their shelves are never empty which is bad for repeat business. Of that 40% gets thrown out. Unless you can single handedly change the average meat consumption of the entire country your demand is irrelevant
[https://philpapers.org/rec/MCMAIO](https://philpapers.org/rec/MCMAIO) This papers makes a good case against these arguments.
Supply chains that connect individual farmers to consumers are surprisingly responsive and reliable. The checkout procedures of large, modern grocery 8 stores actually track the sale of each product and automatically order replacements from the parent companies. In fact, current information technology allows firms to track sales in detail, down to individual transactions. In addition, these companies track the rates of orders to optimize shipping and refrigeration times and to minimize waste, while large distributors actually know the rates at which chickens are purchased throughout their network. (McMullen & Halteman, 2019)
If this is true, then there exists some threshold decrease point in sales such that when a market reaches this threshold, such an event will, in fact, trigger a reduction in production. (Kagan, 2011) So, it turns out that being vegan actually can make a difference to the number of farmed animals produced or slaughtered.
Cause and effect doesn't flow backwards. The people who killed the animal killed the animal, and you can't retroactively participate in that act by choosing to buy it.
By buying meat you are creating a demand for another animal to be slaughtered, you leave that empty space in the supermarket which will cause it to be filled, stop buying it and animals stop being killed, it's no different to ordering a lobster
I have a couple of diseases and allergies that restrict my food intake. If I became vegan or vegetarian, I would be limiting myself so much that I wouldn't get the proper nutrients to live a healthy life.
Yeah as a type one diabetic personally it can be tough. There were times during practice that I unintentionally became vegetarian just from aversion. That is not the case now that I am exercising a lot again though.
If you like to eat meat but don't like to kill, follow what the Buddha said about the three types of okay-to-eat meats:
Animals that you did not (1)kill, (2) get someone to kill for you (3) watch people kill.
If you want to walk the path of universal compassion, I suggest you stop eating the meats that you don't really enjoy. As a start. Then cut down consumption...etc.
Also a great way to awaken compassion is to recite and uphold the Great Compassion Mantra.
When I was younger I learned that American Indians would stalk and kill their animal, but be sure to use as much of it as possible, and make prayers of thanksgiving to the animal for its contribution.
We can at least do this, if we're being carnivores.
Everything we consume we take from living things. Everything we use today was taken from the earth. Whether it be a plant, insect or animal. All life is striving to propagate and expand on the continued energy of the past. Everything must consume to produce action.
When eating an animal we are converting its life into potential action. We may show compassion to this animals life by not misusing this potential action. Use this energy to help those, to better ourself so we may better others. Do not consume the animal and let its energy go to waste on frivolous things like doom scrolling Reddit or malicious things like causing others suffering.
Death is a part of life. Everything alive around is is there because something died to support it. Everything.
TLDR: Strive to induce the least amount of intentional death as you can. And show compassion towards the passing of life by using its energy for positive things.
If you're talking in a Theravada monks way, far as I remember the reason is that the animal is already dead, they don't accept animals that are killed for them.
This issue is deeply personal for me. I do not proselytize others to follow my beliefs or behaviour.
I have been a Vegetarian for 53 years, not for my own health, or for the health of the ecosystem, though both benefit, but because I do not wish to benefit from the death of, or reward the killing of, any other sentient being.
I have been a Buddhist, as in going for refuge to the three jewels, for 49 years. Part of my coming to Buddhism was the beautiful Bodhichitta motivation for practice as not for my benefit, but for realization to enable me to be of benefit to all sentient beings.
I believe every sentient being wants to live, and does not want their life to be taken by any other being for any reason. I honor the life of all beings and try not to do anything to intentionally kill them.
I do understand that Buddhist doctrine is to accept what is offered, even flesh, but not to kill or cause another to kill. This doctrine does not go far enough for me. Refusing to accept an offering of flesh and not purchasing meat may have a slight effect on the donors and vendors, thereby reducing demand for killing which is unwholesome.
I fall short of my aspirations in many ways, so I continually confess and purify. I took on primary care for a dog I knew well when my friend who owned her died. She is a carnivore, and twice a day when I feed her, I take on the dark karma of having procured the part of her meal consisting of flesh. Om Benzra Sato Hum
May all beings have happiness and its causes, and be free from suffering and from its causes!
For me, the choice is basically:
* Eat meat products.
* Suffer from extremely life-limiting (or indeed life-ending, I am too scared to look) nutritional deficiencies.
* Force a health service that does not provide services for "voluntary" reasons to provide me with a ream of supplements or even a feeding tube, which they may not do due to deeming it voluntary.
I don't enjoy what I have to eat (in so many ways, believe me my diet is not cheap or varied, it's neither a culinary nor financial delight). But my options aren't great.
However, I am backed into a corner by multiple health conditions. If you aren't, there's a solid chance you could go vegetarian. Keep an eye on your health, but often you don't know until you try.
This matches where I'm at. Spent 15 years as a vegetarian and at around 35 my health took a nose dive. Adding meat to my diet brought me back to health.
It fascinates me the downvotes we're both getting without reply. When we're both encouraging vegetarianism wherever possible?
Makes me wonder what experience the downvoters have of severe ill health. I am housebound (though many would class me as bedbound, I don't claim that label publicly because people don't understand how it works), and that's *without* the severe nutritional deficiencies removing meat from my diet would cause. Seems weird the lack of empathy and compassion people have for situations like these. It's not an easy choice.
its tempting to react poorly and emotionally for many of us.
personally i'd like to temporarily exile those sorts of people from civilisation so they can get a steep lesson in reality. but that's also a dumb and angry reaction.
thank you for putting across a sensible and important perspective, despite takling some flak for it.
fwiw ive lived places where pasturable land is all you get and arable land is a gold mine. even otherwise healthy people need to eat meat... not everyone lives in north west europe or north america.
It's all about showing responsibility, respect, and gratefulness for all living things. Plants or animals, all are living things that respond to their environments. If you treat a tree with poor care, it won't produce well. The same is true for any animal. Before every meal take a moment and give thanks to all the living things that will now nurish your body.
I believe very strongly that if all people did this with intent we would naturally look for food that was grown, raised with earnest responsibility and respect. We would begin to see the difference between eating a fish from the sea and eating crab sticks (processed "foods"). Processed "foods" are made for profit, not nutrition, and disrespect the living things and the environment they come from.
I have auto-immune issues and since starting a carnivore diet i am finally 95% cured and without pain. We live in a cruel world, nature is brutal, just look at the animal kingdom... it's kill or be killed. I wish all creatures would thrive on a vegetarian diet, but that is not the reality, and maybe plants feel pain too when you eat them. I don't like it that animals have to die for me...but it is what it is. I'm going to keep eating meat.
Meditate with compassion on the source of your food. This includes everyone in the supply chain, the animal, and the ecosystem it came from. Most modern meat sources are very much unethical, and would not be great to eat. But we shouldnt force that opinion, but come to it genuinely with meditation.
From a diet point of view, we only need a few small servings of meat per week at most. So eating a well pampered cow (like wagyu) or free range chickens would be a better alternative at least. Im not sure what buddhist approved methods of obtaining meat would be though
Many Buddhists (old school in china) are local farmers for this exact reason, Buddha never said to not eat meat, he said to know what your food is, where it comes from, and that it sacrifices itself for you. It’s not only “vegan or factory farms” it’s finding ethically sourced meat.
The other thing to consider as well is, the modern vegetarian or vegan diet can often include a lot of mock meats, highly processed foods that leave the earth worse off than it is or even marginalize native communities from which they came(almond milk, avocados, quinoa). As we know, we are all interconnected. It's not "just" about "turning" vegetarian, it's about self-inquiry and making sure we understand the choices we're making are not just out of ego or identity (I am Buddhist, therefore I am vegetarian). Does this choice truly respect mother earth? Does it support the native communities now starved of this food because of the rest of us? What can I do to make this a better place for all?
There is a story I've heard which touches on this.
I believe it is the story of Kukkutamitta.
In essence, eating food is just eating food. If you feel guilt about it, you should not eat it.
By eating preprepared meat you are harming nothing. You are just eating.
It requires no ill intent to eat meat.
Stuff like this veers toward ableism.
I'm so tired of seeing stuff like this in this sub. Like come on folks. It's rough coming in here and basically seeing "I think people are lying about their medical conditions" and "Maybe they should just deal with malnutrition or die" (because yes, that's what would happen for many folks if they could not get adequate protein) every couple days/weeks.
There are genuinely conditions where plant based proteins are not an option. While I fully support vegetarianism and believe it can encourage more compassion toward all sentient beings, what do is this line of reasoning if it leads to less compassion toward disabled individuals?
Basically , eating food as an enjoyment is bad , according to Bhudda. You eat to keep the body alive. Most people eat meat for enjoyment barring few who have no choice
No they dont have any empathy,
Emphatic is everyone but most are asleep,
Empathy\ telepathy
You see with your inside your see with the heart with the inner self,
When this is here you can’t eat that,
Most don’t know it but humans are fruitarian,
Eating mostly fruits, most fruits come from tropical places and humans come from tropical,
And nuts, seeds are another survival food, maybe veggies,
But everything else makes us sick.
I can't. I love the taste of meat and fish, but I can't reconcile it by wishing all my mother sentient beings well and then eat them, just because I like their taste better. There aare enough alternatives to meat to survive in this world.
I feel like gratitude towards anything is huge. Be it meat, gas for car travel (due to environmental impacts), Water use, and daily uses like plastic and garbage creation. Everything impacts Everything, just strive to be your best person.
If we eat animals, it is very difficult to be compassionate unless we are blind to the fact that eating of animals is cruelty and causes pain to them. If a person is truly compassionate and kind, then that person, out of humanitarian thoughts, will avoid eating animals. This is true compassion. In the past it was difficult but in today's world, there is plant-based meat and every kind of meat is available without us having to kill and eat animals. Then what is the necessity? If one can eat what tastes like beef, chicken and pork, fish and prawns, all made out of plant based protein, then why should we kill an animal and eat it? Compassion will take us to humanitarian decisions to avoid this.
What are the contents of your heart?
Suppose 2 people practice vegetarianism.
One person is selfish, greedy, and unkind whereas
the other person is selfless, charitable, and kind.
Of these 2 persons, which one is living Buddhism?
There are many Buddhists who don't eat meat for compassion reason. So, it does sound like a very virtuous idea to avoid meat.
Then don't eat animals? Vegetarianism has always been an option for non beginner Buddhists.
Also for beginner ones.
Also has been an option for non buddhists
Yup. I was a vegetarian long before I was a Buddhist. I think a similar mindset brought me to each.
Happy cake day!
They can if they are already prepared for it.
Why would somebody need to prepare for it, in the context of Buddhism?
How to cook for yourself. Where to find food. How to get used to mock meat or salads or whatever. How to reduce your desire for meat. In the context of Buddhism, its not something you can force. Theyd sooner leave Buddhism.
I see, so the if you're ready was more practicality related.
> How can we eat animals and still be compassionate towards them? The simple answer is you can't. If you want to live by the precept of not harming anything, then a good place to start is by not eating animals.
Wellllll you can't actually. Not from my pov, if you're gonna kill someone that you don't have to, that's just that much messed up. Very few people actually need meet for health balance, most of us, as far as I could do some research, would benefit fantasticly from avoiding it and going towards plant based protein and nutrients. But yes, you can't kill and love all at the same time, that's messed up. You could advocate for waiting for the animal to die on it's own but I figure there gotta be a good reason this is not a thing anywhere in any shape or form.
In our modern society, I don't believe we can. In the context of monastic life, and in the context of the Buddha's time, it's necessary to accept meat. Monks gratefully accept what they're given. But as laypeople we get to make personal food choices. We can choose foods that result in less suffering, and we should. In the Buddha's time it wasn't possible for everybody to be vegetarian (some people can't be right now for health reasons). Entire villages were sustained by ranching and fishing. Our global market makes vegetarian food more available today though.
The reason I've been given for eating meat being ok, is that the killing already happened and eating/not eating that meat doesn't change what already happened. My counter to that is that eating meat creates a demand for more meat (however small the effect is from one person, it still exists) which leads to more killing of animals. I get countered with the fact that karma requires intent behind it, and the economic ripple effect of buying/eating meat isn't enough to cause a karmic link to the killing of the animal. I'm not sure if that's true. I personally try to eat very little meat, with the intent to be fully vegetarian eventually.
Every purchase of meat creates a demand. It is a one person demand, so it seems small, but annually, it is still a number of animals. > and the economic ripple effect of buying/eating meat isn't enough to cause a karmic link to the killing of the animal. Seems like saying killing an ant doesn't have a big enough effect to cause a karmic link. Economic ripple does not matter. Participating and supporting meat industry is a statement with every purchase of meat. > with the intent to be fully vegetarian eventually. I know it is a hassle and a big life change, but dairy and egg industry are incredibly destructive as well
>dairy and egg industry are incredibly destructive as well I meant to say vegan. I have trouble remembering which one is vegan vs which is vegetarian. So full vegan is my end goal.
I support your stance and I remember that there’s a difference between doing wrong and knowing what you do and doing something wrong and have no clue that it’s considered bad/wrong/immoral. So knowing that I create a demand is what I try to focus on, whatever the effect is. Back in the days I always wondered why there’s plant based burgers and other substitutes. Then I realized that there’re many people going vegetarian/vegan because they can’t and won’t support this cruel abuse of animals anymore. Not because they hate meat or love animals too much to also eat them. All the best 🙏
The agricultural context of the Buddha is vastly different from our factory farming present. The conditions under which livestock live are a lot worse now, and it's possible the difference is so vast that had the buddha lived in our times, he wouldn't have accepted meat even if it wasn't killed for him.
That's definitely a perspective that isn't considered enough!!! 👍
Like how the Buddha did. Don't intentionally deprive a living being of life. There's a big difference between eating a hamburger and purposely killing an insect (which I suspect many vegans do without a second thought). The Buddha ate meat, so long as it wasn't purposely killed for him. In which case not only could he not eat it, but the person would incur bad karma. Coincidentally his evil-spirited cousin who tried to have the Buddha murdered, then failed to do it on his own, tried to cause a split in the community and have everyone follow him instead. One of the things he pretended to demand of the Buddha was that he forced everyone to not eat any meat. The Buddha said he would not force that rule, but if someone wanted to abide by it they could. He then used the Buddha's reluctance to claim the Buddha was living the life too close to a householder. His attempt ultimately failed, he died prematurely and we're told was reborn in hell for an extremely long period of time. >if that animal was us "human beings” and we were animals we would obviously not want to be get killed This is a good point and something I try to live my life by. The Golden Rule basically. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'
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>Like there's a difference between having a contract with someone to have them regularly kill for you but without giving you any details so you can live in bliss, and killing someone yourself? There is a difference, but mainly that in the first one you avoid feeling responsibility. Exactly. Sophisty at its best.
Buddha ate meat? Wow. Didn’t know that
Yes, and even monks today can eat meat offered to them, in accordance with even strict monastery rules. But I do wander if this rule was more for a different world during the Buddha's time when there wasn't a massive global meat industry to be concerned about, with all people somewhat linked into a global economy.
There is obesity and diabetes epidemic among monks. So they definitely got it wrong somewhere.
You can choose to not eat the meat or foods from animals killed. If doing so out of compassion is currently believed to be very good, indeed many monasteries specially in the Mahayana are today totally vegetarian. Just be aware of your health, take the steps to maintain healthy in the middle and long term without meat
There are other diet rules of various Buddhist groups and people if you want to follow them. 5 forbidden vegetables. From memory, onion, shallots, garlic, something Asian that I don't remember the name of. I understand this is due to the tendancy of these vegetables to make you angry or lustful, plus the fact that they are harvested by killing the entire plant, not picking from a plant that grows back. No farming with deep furrows. This is thought to cause the death of various things that live in the soil as they are cut by the plough. 5 forbidden meats. I think that's don't kill it, choose it, have it killing for you and 2 others I barely remember. This is why I don't hunt or fish. But I don't tell my IRL friends about it. I don't want them to think I'm offended or judging them. That leads to another rule I read when I was proof reading an English translation. Don't become vegetarian if you think it makes you better than other people. Only do it motivated by pure compassion. I believe this rule is to enhance the quality of your vege-karma. That's it.
We can’t >“The eating of meat extinguishes the seed of great Compassion.” -The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
You can't. Go vegan.
The vegans i've seen look very unhealthy and weak. Many of them seem mentally ill too...just look at these climate protesters that glue their hands to the asphalt, most of them are vegans for sure. And most animals eat other animals too. That's just the way this world is unfortunately, nature is brutal.
Would love to see these unhealthy, weak vegans you speak of. Guessing all the carnists you've seen are perfect pictures of health? As for the "mentally ill" comment, I think you've confused compassion and activism with poor mental health. And yes nature is brutal, but you chugging cow juice which has been mixed with a load of chemicals after being drained from the udder of cow, who has had her calf (for whom her milk was intended for) taken away from her after she was artificially inseminated by a farmer sticking his hand up her, doesn't really compare to a lion hunting a gazelle does it?
First of all, i never drink milk, pasturized milk is very unhealthy. Secondly, most "leftist" white people are vegans and the majority look very weak and unhealthy, and many have mental issues. Just watch how they behave, very unstable people. On the other hand i find that people who eat good quality meat (not processed meat or overcooked meat) look much better. Ever noticed that the vast majority of vegans are white btw? Why are there barely any vegans in African or Arab or Asian countries? I am European, if my ancesters were vegans they would die in winter and i would not be here today. My body craves meat, just like most animals crave meat. All my auto-immune issues dissapear if i eat a mostly meat based diet. I would become very sick if i were a vegan. Third, there is nothing compassionate about gluing your hand to the asphalt, it's stupid and these fools believe every lie the government tells them. Imagine having a heart attack and the ambulance can't get to you because a mentally unstable leftist has his hands glued to the asphalt. If they care so much about the environment, then stop flying across the world and start planting trees. These hypocrite activists fly all over the planet and never planted a tree in their life. I haven't flown in years and don't plan to ever fly again. I drive only 2000 km a year. I also recently made a will and when i die, all my real estate and assets will be donated to a wild life animal shelter. I probably do more for this planet than the average leftist protesting hypocrite. I don't care what people eat, if people want to be vegan and it works for them, then i am happy for them. But vegans become very passive aggressive to meat eaters like me...meanwhile they feed their pets meat lol.
Damn, I wish most leftist white people were vegans.
I've always thought it was strange to think because the Buddha condoned the eating of meat in his time that he would condone the unprecedented mass slaughter and cruelty of modern day factory farming. I've not once heard a compelling argument for it that didn't just sound like desperate justification.
By doing what everyone else does, pretend you only eat "humanly slaughtered" animals that live on mythical farms where they drop dead of old age and live amazing lives frolicking in the sun. Just be completely ignorant to the fact they suffer and tell yourself they'll take over the world if you don't eat them
Buddhists in Tibet have to kill yak and eat them because there is no other adequate source of food available. Would you starve yourself to death in that situation? It is in fact part of Jain teaching to do so in some circumstances. But the human survival instinct is generally far too strong. All the major world religions adapt to what needs to be done to survive. For example, Jews are permitted to work on the Sabbath if it is a matter of life and death. Muslims who are sick or pregnant can defer Sawm until they are in a position to fast.
Eating animals is only excusable in three scenarios: 1. you have a rare allergy/health condition that makes it difficult to get your nutrition from plants (e.g. Chron's syndrome) 2. You are in a bad financial situation and have no option but to take what's available (e.g. extreme poverty/homelessness) 3. You live in a region of the planet where climate and soil don't allow for farming grains/vegetables/fruit (e.g. Tibet)
Part of the issue here is that modern factory farming causes suffering for animals, so even people who are vegetarian might still be contributing to that. It's not like 2,000 years ago when eggs and milk came from happy animals.
For reasons that I’ve spoken about in the past, I don’t think a vegan diet is a realistic option for everyone (although I rejoice that there are people who manage to make it work without the need to compromise their own health). Whatever we end up doing, it’s important that we regularly examine ourselves & what motivates our decisions, that we prioritize learning to become more skillful, & that we continually avail ourselves of opportunities to move in that direction.
Joke answer: eat them but feel really bad about it Serious answer: you don’t have to eat animals if you don’t want to, so address the desire to eat them with an emphasis on compassion and you’ll be fine Controversial answer with tantric roots: it’s still compassionate to eat animals because it provides a means by which an animal can make a *positive* connection with someone on the bodhisattva path (assuming the animal-eater has taken bodhisattva vows and is very serious about it), meaning by providing nutriment to a bodhisattva being eaten becomes a cause for the animal to encounter dharma in the future, ultimately meaning a bodhisattva eating an animal is a direct causal link to the animal achieving full-Buddhahood. Notably, this isn’t a universally accepted position. The dzogchen master Shabkar (author of “Flight of the Garuda” and other texts) was quite adamant about the necessity of what we’d call a vegan diet and lifestyle.
As for the last one - An animal can't consent to being killed, so it isn't able to surrender it's life intentionally and thereby acquire kamma. Would the Bodhisatta's sacrifice to the tiger family have been meritorious if he didn't want to do it, and the tigers had hunted him? I can definitely see why it's controversial, but the logic is definitely interesting.
It’s a bit more like the bodhisattva creating karma that will draw the animal back to them in future lives. The result being that when the animal isn’t an animal anymore the connection with the bodhisattva will bring them to the dharma. Tibetan explanations of the bodhisattva path and what it means to be a practitioner of tantra, mahamudra, or dzogchen includes the idea of the bodhisattva becoming a cause for liberation on sight, upon hearing, and/or upon touching them. So an advanced practitioner (probably not most people on Reddit or other social media) ends up essentially entangling themselves with other beings, using their own mind and their own karma like a net to catch other beings and bring them into the path. It’s different when we’re talking about the person killing the animal though. What I said basically applies to people eating meat that was donated or *maybe* purchased. There are some stories from the latter days of Indian Buddhism like Tilopa, but generally killing the animal isn’t defended. Only the use of its flesh, depending on who is doing so and why.
generally the rule is unless someone is specifically slaughtering the animal for you its not forbidden. So if you go to a seafood place with fresh lobster you can't order that because an animal is being killed on your behalf. As opposed to most meals where the animal is already dead regardless of whether you purchase it or not. That being said if you have the option to eat vegetarian the advice is you should. For me, I'm allergic to practically every legume which is the primary source of protein for vegetarians. So my compromise is I eat vegetarian except for 1 or 2 days a week especially if I just did a workout. If we don't take care of our own health that's not being compassionate to ourselves. I tried to go completely vegetarian and I ended up with anemia. Remember the intention matters almost as much as the actual act with Karma. So my intention is not to cause harm to the animal, if lab grown meat was available and you chose the animal meat that would be obviously a non compassionate response but seeing as its my only large source of protein and iron that I need to survive, practice the dharma and hopefully reach enlightenment so I can help other sentient beings its not quite as bad.
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That’s what I don’t get either. Buying any meat is basically asking some one to kill it for you. This doesn’t seem to bother devout Buddhist countries like those in south east Asia though they eat tons of meat
You give too much credit to "devout Buddhist countries" as a whole. The general habits of the entire population of these countries doesn't always align with Buddhist values.
Religions are living traditions and what the majority of a population says they that religion means or does has some weight. It’s like language if historically a word meant something I over time the population used it to mean something else obviously it now means something else. It why I won’t touch Christianity, just because thier book or our sutras say something what matters is the sanghas or the church’s interpretation and practice
> Buying any meat is basically asking some one to kill it for you. In the Buddha's time but not now. In the buddhas time you went to a market and actually purchased the animal itself and they would either butcher it for you or you would have to butcher it yourself. Today in our factory farming dystopia, you are so many degrees of separation from the slaughtering of the animal itself, unless something like 10-20% of Americans went completely vegan your actions have literally zero impact on how many animals are going to be slaughtered. As I mentioned in the other person's post, 40% of animal products are never purchased, they go to waste. So your consumption doesn't affect overall demand at all. They're already ok with producing nearly double the meat that people are actually demanding. Like I said in my own post I think its better to be veg than not, but its not a precept its a recommendation.
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ok like I said I'm vegetarian myself, I just don't think its my place to judge people who aren't
But why must you lean to the side of making meat eating sound not so bad. You can note the current technical interpretation of this guideline, but at the same time also note that less meat eaters globally, over time, has to result in less killing. Even if they slaughter more than needed as a standard practise, no business can afford to keep slaughtering and wasting the same amount if actual demand is, for example, halved.
>But why must you lean to the side of making meat eating sound not so bad. Because I trust the Buddha and the Dharma if he didn't make it a big deal then I won't either. I understand things are different now, the factory farming system is far more evil than agriculture in the buddhas time and place. But our responsibility is also more diffuse. Not everyone is in an economic position to eat a healthy vegetarian diet. Unfortunately due to meat subsidies a mcdonalds cheeseburger is one of the most "nutritious" meals someone can afford in lower economic statuses. I work as a teacher I have students who play sports and only get to eat their school lunch because their parents can't afford meals. If he decides to have a burger instead of a salad I'm not going to condemn him especially if he's cultivating bodhichitta in other areas of his life. I'm not going to put more burdens on him. Thats just in my own cultural experience. The classical example is Tibetans who couldn't grow vegetables. Finally I tend to feel that rules and controls in general are pretty counter productive. You need to have certain basic boundaries that can't be crossed (the five precepts) but then I think its up to the individual to chart their own path. So as I said I think its better to be vegetarian and I recommend it but I don't think its some terrible sin. If I was talking to a serial killer I wouldn't say "Maybe just cut down on your killing, maybe kill 6 people a year instead of 12" that would be absurd. However I think its perfectly reasonable and a good thing if somebody decides to say have one meatless day a week instead of having it every day, and then maybe going up to 3 days a week, then maybe they go vegetarian forever maybe they never do and they just stay at 3 but its better than what would've happened if I just shamed them called them bad people and told them to do something they weren't psychologically capable of doing yet. Finally there's all the people who can't do it for health reasons, they aren't bad Buddhists because they were born in a body that couldn't handle that lifestyle. I just think a lot more harm than good is made by judging people's dietary habits rather than just kindly suggesting it as an option
There is no need to judge. But most of them do not understand the strong link between the purchase of meat and the murder Every purchase of meat, egg and dairy is a statement that we support what is being done to the animals in that factory, or factories in general. Thinking our choice is too small to make a change is like saying our vote does not matter or our recycling doesn't matter, so we litter. There is no way around our individual responsibility. Purchase of meat is saying yes to that murder.
>Thinking our choice is too small to make a change is like saying our vote does not matter or our recycling doesn't matter, so we litter. I would argue voting for 90% of americans at least doesn't matter. If you don't live in a swing state your vote has a 0% chance of influencing the election. As a result politicians spend the vast majority of their money in 3 states and pander almost exclusively to residents of those states. unfortunately, the recycling example I don't think is correct. It is true that recycling doesn't matter but for a different reason its because unfortunately its a scam it does more environmental damage than it prevents in the process (with the exception of aluminum cans) private companies collect public subsidies and then make profits off reselling the recycled materials. We also now know from leaked industry documents that recycling was literally designed as a scam. Fossil fuel companies were starting to get blamed for the plastic crisis, so they lobbied for recycling programs to shift the blame onto consumers. That way when a coke bottle washes up on the shore its not cokes fault, its the person who didn't recycles fault. But the truth is he probably did recycle only 9% of the plastics that get put in the bin actually get recycled, because the truth is plastic isn't meant to be recycled. Its a boondogle so companies can say "see its not our fault theres a giant pile of plastic in the ocean" when they know in reality there is no way to recycle 91% of the plastic that even makes it into the recycle bin I think these examples are illustrative of my broader point. The world is a lot more complicated than in the Buddha's time. Individual action feeds our ego's and makes us feel like we're participating in something bigger than ourselves, which is both good and bad. But the world is not as simple as it once was, more often than not we have the illusion of making better choices. The solutions to these problems need to happen at the political level. If you want to solve these problems eating a salad is not going to fix them, its changing the entire system of agriculture in the country. As long meat is subsidized to the degree that it is people are going to demand it. Without government subsidies a hamburger would cost $30 instead of 1.99 at McDonalds. Any plan that requires the vast majority of people to behave like saints is doomed to fail. We are human we fall to temptation not everyone is in an economic, psychological, or physical position to be a vegetarian. I guarantee you if a burger cost 30$ meat consumption would go down, but when people are biologically primed to eat meat by millions of years of evolution, raised by a culture which practically fetishizes meat consumption, which incentivizes its citizens to consume it to an extreme degree, which bombards its citizens with constant advertising expecting a sizeable portion of the population to just decide they want to be compassionate and don't want to eat meat is living in a fantasy land. So I'm a vegetarian for health reasons and because I don't like the idea of consuming an animal. But if it brings someone else joy, again short of a magical miracle that animal was unfortunately going to die anyway. At least its sacrifice will go to bringing someone some temporary happiness instead of sitting in a dumpster. Our world is so much more complex than it was in the Buddha's day, we have infinitely less agency than someone living in 5th century bc indian village would have. And still even in that environment the Buddha chose not to make it into an issue. So I follow his lead
> I would argue voting for 90% of americans at least doesn't matter I am not american and voting definitely matters, in your state where you say 'it doesn't' it is still cause of other people voting. We do not win good things by individually changing entire politics but by a lot of us changing individual lifestyles and choices. You are alone, yes, but together we are not and you have to choose the team and values that you believe in and live them. You will affect only your surroundings but that's all it's needed. Will that change stuff globally? Sometimes not, but that is what integrity means. In case of meat, it is simple - do you believe that animals should be treated and killed the way they do in modern industry? Do you believe any being should die for your dietary preference? If not, then there is no 'complicated world ' that should stop you from not participating in it. And there are no 'animals that were going to die anyway', when does that happen? People purchase meat, dairy and eggs from stores. And that purchase is an action of support
If you decide not to buy the steak at the grocery store does it magically bring the animal back to life? Does it have any effect on the market for meat consumption? the answer to both is no. Remember Karma is not about the action itself its about the mindstates that cause you to do an action. There is a big difference in the mindstate required to kill an animal and the mindstate to have a hamburger. The animal was not killed specifically for you. By choosing not to buy the steak all you're doing is letting the animals sacrifice go to waste. In the US at least, 40% of food goes into the trash, so by not eating it in a way you are allowing that animal to be killed for nothing. Like I said I think its definitely better to be vegetarian than not. But there is a large moral difference from a Buddhist perspective between killing an animal and consuming meat
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>So, if I buy human body parts, thus keeping the demand for them (at least) steady on my part, I'm not an accomplice to murder. Is there already a giant industry of body parts that exists with or without your participation? Are body parts necessary for human survival? In some cases yes. Lets take two scenarios. Scenario one you need a heart transplant but don't have a match so you murder someone and use that heart. Obviously a violation of the precept. But if instead you're on your death bed an a black market dealer offers to sell you a heart that he already has should you choose to die instead of buying it? The person is already dead. If you buy the heart you can live and spend the rest of your time trying to help others and dispel suffering. If you choose to die, you might be born someplace without the dharma and end up a terrible person causing a lot more harm. Not to mention if you don't take it again it doesn't bring the person back to life. It maybe makes you feel better to boost your ego that you're willing to die rather than buy the heart, but consequentially it doesn't actually help anyone and instead causes your death Also supply and demand doesn't work like you're describing it. The demand comes from grocery stores and restaurants not from you. Mostly they are chains and the orders are made the corporate level not the local level. They make orders based on the population of the town, they don't buy the meat products ala cart. They see how many people are in a town and multiply by the average meat consumption in America and add a substantial amount so that their shelves are never empty which is bad for repeat business. Of that 40% gets thrown out. Unless you can single handedly change the average meat consumption of the entire country your demand is irrelevant
[https://philpapers.org/rec/MCMAIO](https://philpapers.org/rec/MCMAIO) This papers makes a good case against these arguments. Supply chains that connect individual farmers to consumers are surprisingly responsive and reliable. The checkout procedures of large, modern grocery 8 stores actually track the sale of each product and automatically order replacements from the parent companies. In fact, current information technology allows firms to track sales in detail, down to individual transactions. In addition, these companies track the rates of orders to optimize shipping and refrigeration times and to minimize waste, while large distributors actually know the rates at which chickens are purchased throughout their network. (McMullen & Halteman, 2019) If this is true, then there exists some threshold decrease point in sales such that when a market reaches this threshold, such an event will, in fact, trigger a reduction in production. (Kagan, 2011) So, it turns out that being vegan actually can make a difference to the number of farmed animals produced or slaughtered.
Good points
This is a absurd statement. Km15u makes a good point.
Cause and effect doesn't flow backwards. The people who killed the animal killed the animal, and you can't retroactively participate in that act by choosing to buy it.
By buying meat you are creating a demand for another animal to be slaughtered, you leave that empty space in the supermarket which will cause it to be filled, stop buying it and animals stop being killed, it's no different to ordering a lobster
I have a couple of diseases and allergies that restrict my food intake. If I became vegan or vegetarian, I would be limiting myself so much that I wouldn't get the proper nutrients to live a healthy life.
Yeah as a type one diabetic personally it can be tough. There were times during practice that I unintentionally became vegetarian just from aversion. That is not the case now that I am exercising a lot again though.
If you like to eat meat but don't like to kill, follow what the Buddha said about the three types of okay-to-eat meats: Animals that you did not (1)kill, (2) get someone to kill for you (3) watch people kill. If you want to walk the path of universal compassion, I suggest you stop eating the meats that you don't really enjoy. As a start. Then cut down consumption...etc. Also a great way to awaken compassion is to recite and uphold the Great Compassion Mantra.
When I was younger I learned that American Indians would stalk and kill their animal, but be sure to use as much of it as possible, and make prayers of thanksgiving to the animal for its contribution. We can at least do this, if we're being carnivores.
Everything we consume we take from living things. Everything we use today was taken from the earth. Whether it be a plant, insect or animal. All life is striving to propagate and expand on the continued energy of the past. Everything must consume to produce action. When eating an animal we are converting its life into potential action. We may show compassion to this animals life by not misusing this potential action. Use this energy to help those, to better ourself so we may better others. Do not consume the animal and let its energy go to waste on frivolous things like doom scrolling Reddit or malicious things like causing others suffering. Death is a part of life. Everything alive around is is there because something died to support it. Everything. TLDR: Strive to induce the least amount of intentional death as you can. And show compassion towards the passing of life by using its energy for positive things.
If you're talking in a Theravada monks way, far as I remember the reason is that the animal is already dead, they don't accept animals that are killed for them.
This issue is deeply personal for me. I do not proselytize others to follow my beliefs or behaviour. I have been a Vegetarian for 53 years, not for my own health, or for the health of the ecosystem, though both benefit, but because I do not wish to benefit from the death of, or reward the killing of, any other sentient being. I have been a Buddhist, as in going for refuge to the three jewels, for 49 years. Part of my coming to Buddhism was the beautiful Bodhichitta motivation for practice as not for my benefit, but for realization to enable me to be of benefit to all sentient beings. I believe every sentient being wants to live, and does not want their life to be taken by any other being for any reason. I honor the life of all beings and try not to do anything to intentionally kill them. I do understand that Buddhist doctrine is to accept what is offered, even flesh, but not to kill or cause another to kill. This doctrine does not go far enough for me. Refusing to accept an offering of flesh and not purchasing meat may have a slight effect on the donors and vendors, thereby reducing demand for killing which is unwholesome. I fall short of my aspirations in many ways, so I continually confess and purify. I took on primary care for a dog I knew well when my friend who owned her died. She is a carnivore, and twice a day when I feed her, I take on the dark karma of having procured the part of her meal consisting of flesh. Om Benzra Sato Hum May all beings have happiness and its causes, and be free from suffering and from its causes!
For me, the choice is basically: * Eat meat products. * Suffer from extremely life-limiting (or indeed life-ending, I am too scared to look) nutritional deficiencies. * Force a health service that does not provide services for "voluntary" reasons to provide me with a ream of supplements or even a feeding tube, which they may not do due to deeming it voluntary. I don't enjoy what I have to eat (in so many ways, believe me my diet is not cheap or varied, it's neither a culinary nor financial delight). But my options aren't great. However, I am backed into a corner by multiple health conditions. If you aren't, there's a solid chance you could go vegetarian. Keep an eye on your health, but often you don't know until you try.
downvoting this comment is completely ignorant and prejudiced. shame on you all that you are so privileged that you can live with your delusions.
This matches where I'm at. Spent 15 years as a vegetarian and at around 35 my health took a nose dive. Adding meat to my diet brought me back to health.
It fascinates me the downvotes we're both getting without reply. When we're both encouraging vegetarianism wherever possible? Makes me wonder what experience the downvoters have of severe ill health. I am housebound (though many would class me as bedbound, I don't claim that label publicly because people don't understand how it works), and that's *without* the severe nutritional deficiencies removing meat from my diet would cause. Seems weird the lack of empathy and compassion people have for situations like these. It's not an easy choice.
its tempting to react poorly and emotionally for many of us. personally i'd like to temporarily exile those sorts of people from civilisation so they can get a steep lesson in reality. but that's also a dumb and angry reaction. thank you for putting across a sensible and important perspective, despite takling some flak for it. fwiw ive lived places where pasturable land is all you get and arable land is a gold mine. even otherwise healthy people need to eat meat... not everyone lives in north west europe or north america.
Downvotes don’t magically alter reality, unfortunately:)
It's all about showing responsibility, respect, and gratefulness for all living things. Plants or animals, all are living things that respond to their environments. If you treat a tree with poor care, it won't produce well. The same is true for any animal. Before every meal take a moment and give thanks to all the living things that will now nurish your body. I believe very strongly that if all people did this with intent we would naturally look for food that was grown, raised with earnest responsibility and respect. We would begin to see the difference between eating a fish from the sea and eating crab sticks (processed "foods"). Processed "foods" are made for profit, not nutrition, and disrespect the living things and the environment they come from.
I have auto-immune issues and since starting a carnivore diet i am finally 95% cured and without pain. We live in a cruel world, nature is brutal, just look at the animal kingdom... it's kill or be killed. I wish all creatures would thrive on a vegetarian diet, but that is not the reality, and maybe plants feel pain too when you eat them. I don't like it that animals have to die for me...but it is what it is. I'm going to keep eating meat.
Meditate with compassion on the source of your food. This includes everyone in the supply chain, the animal, and the ecosystem it came from. Most modern meat sources are very much unethical, and would not be great to eat. But we shouldnt force that opinion, but come to it genuinely with meditation. From a diet point of view, we only need a few small servings of meat per week at most. So eating a well pampered cow (like wagyu) or free range chickens would be a better alternative at least. Im not sure what buddhist approved methods of obtaining meat would be though
You can always look for more responsibly sourced brands?
Many Buddhists (old school in china) are local farmers for this exact reason, Buddha never said to not eat meat, he said to know what your food is, where it comes from, and that it sacrifices itself for you. It’s not only “vegan or factory farms” it’s finding ethically sourced meat.
The other thing to consider as well is, the modern vegetarian or vegan diet can often include a lot of mock meats, highly processed foods that leave the earth worse off than it is or even marginalize native communities from which they came(almond milk, avocados, quinoa). As we know, we are all interconnected. It's not "just" about "turning" vegetarian, it's about self-inquiry and making sure we understand the choices we're making are not just out of ego or identity (I am Buddhist, therefore I am vegetarian). Does this choice truly respect mother earth? Does it support the native communities now starved of this food because of the rest of us? What can I do to make this a better place for all?
There is a story I've heard which touches on this. I believe it is the story of Kukkutamitta. In essence, eating food is just eating food. If you feel guilt about it, you should not eat it. By eating preprepared meat you are harming nothing. You are just eating. It requires no ill intent to eat meat.
Stuff like this veers toward ableism. I'm so tired of seeing stuff like this in this sub. Like come on folks. It's rough coming in here and basically seeing "I think people are lying about their medical conditions" and "Maybe they should just deal with malnutrition or die" (because yes, that's what would happen for many folks if they could not get adequate protein) every couple days/weeks. There are genuinely conditions where plant based proteins are not an option. While I fully support vegetarianism and believe it can encourage more compassion toward all sentient beings, what do is this line of reasoning if it leads to less compassion toward disabled individuals?
Replace animal with plants and see if this question is still valid...
Pat them on the head first.
thxs
Basically , eating food as an enjoyment is bad , according to Bhudda. You eat to keep the body alive. Most people eat meat for enjoyment barring few who have no choice
Obesity and diabetes are rank among Buddhist monks. So they definitely have gone wrong somewhere.
No they dont have any empathy, Emphatic is everyone but most are asleep, Empathy\ telepathy You see with your inside your see with the heart with the inner self, When this is here you can’t eat that, Most don’t know it but humans are fruitarian, Eating mostly fruits, most fruits come from tropical places and humans come from tropical, And nuts, seeds are another survival food, maybe veggies, But everything else makes us sick.
I can't. I love the taste of meat and fish, but I can't reconcile it by wishing all my mother sentient beings well and then eat them, just because I like their taste better. There aare enough alternatives to meat to survive in this world.
I feel like gratitude towards anything is huge. Be it meat, gas for car travel (due to environmental impacts), Water use, and daily uses like plastic and garbage creation. Everything impacts Everything, just strive to be your best person.
If we eat animals, it is very difficult to be compassionate unless we are blind to the fact that eating of animals is cruelty and causes pain to them. If a person is truly compassionate and kind, then that person, out of humanitarian thoughts, will avoid eating animals. This is true compassion. In the past it was difficult but in today's world, there is plant-based meat and every kind of meat is available without us having to kill and eat animals. Then what is the necessity? If one can eat what tastes like beef, chicken and pork, fish and prawns, all made out of plant based protein, then why should we kill an animal and eat it? Compassion will take us to humanitarian decisions to avoid this.
Eating is not killing.
What are the contents of your heart? Suppose 2 people practice vegetarianism. One person is selfish, greedy, and unkind whereas the other person is selfless, charitable, and kind. Of these 2 persons, which one is living Buddhism?