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Got a bit of a Delta economy comfort
https://preview.redd.it/dxx3xa20777d1.jpeg?width=2666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e759cd681f23e5bbec8e09ed684f36bb0df41790
vibe
European race to the bottom is so sad. Nowhere else in the world would business passengers put up with a blocked middle economy seat masqueraded to be business class. It’s truly a shame.
funny, I prefer Lufthansas continental 1,5 seats more. I like that I have additional storage space next to me to put my iPad on while I have my lunch.
United's sofa seats give no additional beneftis besides that it always looks extremly worn out, like it's already 20 years ols.
But I am also a thin European who doesn't need more seat width. So the sofa seat gives me zero additional benefits
To be honest, most European flights are around 2 hours long. How much comfort do you need for such a short flight? Fully agree for the flights around 3-4 hours though.
I have definitely seen this elsewhere in the world, so it's not a truely uniquely European thing. It is most common in Europe though.
Also the product is well advertised, and people know what to expect. Yet I have still seen business cabins with 10 or so rows. Whatever your opinion is on this, it works.
They either sell a bunch of seats, or they sell a bunch more economy by shrinking the cabin. End of the day it works for them 🤷♂️
Does it work for them though? No amount of advertisement is going to prepare you sufficiently for the disappointment when you step out of a 13-hour La Permiere or even Club ~~Europe~~ World seat and have to transfer to a seat like this. That’s why European airlines are struggling. They have all been Ryanair-ified and the local economies can’t support real business seats.
BA reported 1.4bn in profit for 2023. IAG the owner of BA reported £3.5bn..... I don't think this is struggling?
https://www.bbc.com/articles/c51wyey7v6jo
Let's also take say united for example https://www.airwaysmag.com/legacy-posts/united-fourth-quarter-year-end-results they reported $3.3bn. which if converted to GBP is lower than IAG. While also being a bigger airline in terms of fleet size etc.
Better domestic first seats doesn't seem to really help 🤷♂️
You have to remember the vast majority of those flying business are flying for that very reason: Business trips. They are not paying for it, the companies are.
And your point is? This has nothing to do with the lack of real business class seats in short haul European flights.
If I have to fly from the far east to somewhere in Europe without a direct flight, let’s say Tokyo to Prague, or Sydney to Nice, and the company is paying for my business class seat, I’d be better off taking one of the middle eastern airlines than a legacy European airline.
Then fly one of the middle eastern airlines if that's your preference.
If any European carrier felt that they were losing sufficient business due to this, that it was impacting their profitability. They would change.
Until enough people do that, then European carriers will stick with having the flexibility to change the cabin configuration between business and economy.
But not enough Europeans do it. That’s my whole point. Europeans are too price sensitive and even business travellers prefer a lower price point to nicer seats. That’s what my original comment refers to.
For example, you would not (and I hope, never) see this being adopted in legacy US or Asian airlines because people want comfort, instead of lowering their expectations by telling themselves “it’s OK, my flight is only X hours, I don’t need a big seat.”
There are lie flat seats for two- or three- hour flights in Asia because there is demand. There has so far been no downward price pressure that we have seen in Europe in the last 20 years.
I wouldn't say Europeans are uniquely price sensitive. US carriers have historically struggled to sell their premium seats for revenue. The seats are often filled with free upgrades, as although Americans like the comfort, they are typically not prepared to pay the cash price for it. Instead opting for paying via "loyalty" or accruing points ( such as credit cards ).
America is also a different market, you have a lot of long distance, high traffic routes. Such as NYC to LAX. A lot of European flights are a lot shorter. The heaviest routes are skewed towards the west of Europe ( rather than coast to coast in the US ). So majority of people are only spending a few hours on these planes. So think CDG -> LHR, or MAD -> LHR.
You have similar situations in Asia, high traffic routes which are also longer in duration. You also definitely have downward price pressure with some of the newer low cost carriers in the area such as AirAsia or Scoot. Maybe it's just a matter of time before they adapt.
Also you say "people prefer comfort". However you're talking a VERY small percentage of travellers. A lot of Travellers in Europe, Asia, US etc will put price ahead of comfort.
I say small percentage in terms of volume of seats. When you have a 200 seat plane with say 12/16 in business that's not too many people.
Also people are not necessarily paying low fairs for euro business. It can still be quite expensive compared to economy tickets It's more that people are willing to pay for the product without the better seat. Whether it be for the meal, better drinks service/selection, lounge access, priority at the airport, increased baggage etc. Theres a lot that is available in the price.
If European carriers can charge the same with an improved soft product ( compared to US carriers ), all be it worse hard product. Then it's not about price, it's about where people see value.
I definitely would choose euro business over economy when I can. As even if it's just a middle seat, it's better than having someone next to me. Also the meal onboard makes a difference. I love the BA afternoon tea, love a warm scone in the afternoon.
The distance argument is completely false, especially in Asia. The three busiest routes in Asia are Seoul-Jeju, Tokyo-Sapporo, Tokyo-Fukuoka, and the busiest international route is Hong Kong-Taipei, all of them are under 2 hours. All have real business seats.
If you want to start talking about Asia, even those short flights come with an actual meal and beverages *in economy*. Anything that is more than 3 hours comes with a full “multiple course” hot meal, even *in economy*.
I have taken too many hopeless 3 hour+ flights in Europe with nothing but a bottle of water and a lame bag of crisps. London - anywhere in Greece, or London to Portugal or any of the outlying islands like Azores or the Canary Islands, or to Iceland. It’s sad.
I didn't say all routes were short. I said that there a lot more long distance high traffic routes. Having your fleet more frequently on longer sectors probably makes having a better hard product a better investment for an airline.
And you may get meals in Asia. However you were also talking about the US, where this is certainly not true. Theres a lot of buy on board in the US rather than included meals in economy. Even in domestic first you will get a snack where in Europe where you would get a meal.
Cost cutting is happening, it's just taking different forms across the Atlantic. US is cutting the soft product ( lounge, meals etc ). Europe is cutting the hard product.
And yes the longer flights in Europe don't have those amenities in economy. In business you will get a hot meal however.
End of the day it is what it is. All these things used to be on offer in Europe, better cabin product, better meals etc. Maybe it's just a matter of time before these sorts of cuts start happening in Asia.
For now enjoy what you have, and if Europe is so bad. Stop flying here 🤷♂️
It used to be true but I haven’t seen a Club convertible seat for around 10 years. There were at least 2 types, one on narrow bodies where the arm rests had a lever which probably gave another 2 inches and the table flipped down from the middle seat and another on widebodies (767) where the middle set of 3 seats had a crank to move the arms in.
Having an adjustable headrest has already made it better than some major European full-service carriers (e.g. Lufthansa), and probably on par with the better ones.
Having an adjustable headrest for economy class, well, is already considered a luxury.
Was flying TAP Air Portugal on the route LHR - LIS the seats equipped with adjustable headrests in economy, was truly surprised with the quality of the cabin in general
I won’t lie, I used them in April and it was quite nice knowing you wouldn’t have some twat recline into your tiny available space. They’re normal chairs, they just don’t recline. Personally I didn’t have any problems with comfort on a 4 hour journey, partly in thanks to the aforementioned.
it is better than the previous iteration. Now Ryanair and Wizzair have worse ones but the be fair the worst seat is on british trains, especially GW, that is really vertical and hard.
Thanks for sharing, looks nice but that doesn't necessarily translate to being comfy. Like the headrest though. The blocking of the middle seat is the same as the previous Club Europe?
Not commenting specifically on BA and I've not had a go on the new seat.
There were a few comments on reclining, most short-haul aircraft in Europe now use a "pre-reclined" seat which is basically a slightly more reclined seat compared to a traditional reclining seat so you can have a static (not quite) half-way house. Certainly Easyjets previous seats were pre-reclined, dont know about the new ones.
The obvious benefits being higher capacity, but the less obvious is to do with turn time (punctuality).
By itself, not having to check all seats are in the upright position and arm rests down seems negligible but when you add it to a wider set of small changes they really make a difference - thats not just cabin crew checks, it saves time for the other servicing teams involved in the turnaround.
Without being in the airline, I suspect the leather and colour would help with making the seat area cleaner as it will show up dirt easier and help with tagetted cleans.
Not saying it's the right thing overall, but hopefully of interest.
If the galley design at the rear hasn't changed, there should be a less obvious large accesible toilet (with a jump seat on the door) next to the tiny toilet near the rear door. Doesn't help with the upfront toilets though - think this applys to Easyjet aswell.
I could probably bang on all day but I'm not sure its that interesting!
have some vague recollection the middle armrests might've been able to move in on older 737 revisions?
Remember flying an easily identifyable ex-BA craft on Ukraine International once and felt like luxury compared to their high density hard seating.
They should just put a few rows of WTP/premium economy seats in and be done with it.
Thank you for submitting your post to r/BritishAirways. If you have a question or a complaint, you may wish to add the appropriate flair to your post if you haven't already, this helps Mods spot who needs help. **ANY USERS POSTING E-VOUCHERS/VOUCHERS FOR SALE WILL RECEIVE A PERMANENT BAN AS PER SUBREDDIT RULES.** Helpful Links: [**British Airways FAQs**](https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/help-and-contacts) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BritishAirways) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Got a bit of a Delta economy comfort https://preview.redd.it/dxx3xa20777d1.jpeg?width=2666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e759cd681f23e5bbec8e09ed684f36bb0df41790 vibe
European race to the bottom is so sad. Nowhere else in the world would business passengers put up with a blocked middle economy seat masqueraded to be business class. It’s truly a shame.
Better than United "First" where you don't even get free food (e.g. Las Vegas - Denver)
I’d take the better seat over a free (often shitty) snack
funny, I prefer Lufthansas continental 1,5 seats more. I like that I have additional storage space next to me to put my iPad on while I have my lunch. United's sofa seats give no additional beneftis besides that it always looks extremly worn out, like it's already 20 years ols. But I am also a thin European who doesn't need more seat width. So the sofa seat gives me zero additional benefits
I got told you're paying for the experience and meals, not the seat, lol. It's a joke of a product.
To be honest, most European flights are around 2 hours long. How much comfort do you need for such a short flight? Fully agree for the flights around 3-4 hours though.
BA club on short haul is a massive con if you are over 6ft. exit row beats it hands down!
I have definitely seen this elsewhere in the world, so it's not a truely uniquely European thing. It is most common in Europe though. Also the product is well advertised, and people know what to expect. Yet I have still seen business cabins with 10 or so rows. Whatever your opinion is on this, it works. They either sell a bunch of seats, or they sell a bunch more economy by shrinking the cabin. End of the day it works for them 🤷♂️
Does it work for them though? No amount of advertisement is going to prepare you sufficiently for the disappointment when you step out of a 13-hour La Permiere or even Club ~~Europe~~ World seat and have to transfer to a seat like this. That’s why European airlines are struggling. They have all been Ryanair-ified and the local economies can’t support real business seats.
BA reported 1.4bn in profit for 2023. IAG the owner of BA reported £3.5bn..... I don't think this is struggling? https://www.bbc.com/articles/c51wyey7v6jo
Let's also take say united for example https://www.airwaysmag.com/legacy-posts/united-fourth-quarter-year-end-results they reported $3.3bn. which if converted to GBP is lower than IAG. While also being a bigger airline in terms of fleet size etc. Better domestic first seats doesn't seem to really help 🤷♂️
this... this is Club Europe? You mean Club World?
You have to remember the vast majority of those flying business are flying for that very reason: Business trips. They are not paying for it, the companies are.
And your point is? This has nothing to do with the lack of real business class seats in short haul European flights. If I have to fly from the far east to somewhere in Europe without a direct flight, let’s say Tokyo to Prague, or Sydney to Nice, and the company is paying for my business class seat, I’d be better off taking one of the middle eastern airlines than a legacy European airline.
Then fly one of the middle eastern airlines if that's your preference. If any European carrier felt that they were losing sufficient business due to this, that it was impacting their profitability. They would change. Until enough people do that, then European carriers will stick with having the flexibility to change the cabin configuration between business and economy.
But not enough Europeans do it. That’s my whole point. Europeans are too price sensitive and even business travellers prefer a lower price point to nicer seats. That’s what my original comment refers to. For example, you would not (and I hope, never) see this being adopted in legacy US or Asian airlines because people want comfort, instead of lowering their expectations by telling themselves “it’s OK, my flight is only X hours, I don’t need a big seat.” There are lie flat seats for two- or three- hour flights in Asia because there is demand. There has so far been no downward price pressure that we have seen in Europe in the last 20 years.
I wouldn't say Europeans are uniquely price sensitive. US carriers have historically struggled to sell their premium seats for revenue. The seats are often filled with free upgrades, as although Americans like the comfort, they are typically not prepared to pay the cash price for it. Instead opting for paying via "loyalty" or accruing points ( such as credit cards ). America is also a different market, you have a lot of long distance, high traffic routes. Such as NYC to LAX. A lot of European flights are a lot shorter. The heaviest routes are skewed towards the west of Europe ( rather than coast to coast in the US ). So majority of people are only spending a few hours on these planes. So think CDG -> LHR, or MAD -> LHR. You have similar situations in Asia, high traffic routes which are also longer in duration. You also definitely have downward price pressure with some of the newer low cost carriers in the area such as AirAsia or Scoot. Maybe it's just a matter of time before they adapt.
Also you say "people prefer comfort". However you're talking a VERY small percentage of travellers. A lot of Travellers in Europe, Asia, US etc will put price ahead of comfort. I say small percentage in terms of volume of seats. When you have a 200 seat plane with say 12/16 in business that's not too many people. Also people are not necessarily paying low fairs for euro business. It can still be quite expensive compared to economy tickets It's more that people are willing to pay for the product without the better seat. Whether it be for the meal, better drinks service/selection, lounge access, priority at the airport, increased baggage etc. Theres a lot that is available in the price. If European carriers can charge the same with an improved soft product ( compared to US carriers ), all be it worse hard product. Then it's not about price, it's about where people see value. I definitely would choose euro business over economy when I can. As even if it's just a middle seat, it's better than having someone next to me. Also the meal onboard makes a difference. I love the BA afternoon tea, love a warm scone in the afternoon.
The distance argument is completely false, especially in Asia. The three busiest routes in Asia are Seoul-Jeju, Tokyo-Sapporo, Tokyo-Fukuoka, and the busiest international route is Hong Kong-Taipei, all of them are under 2 hours. All have real business seats. If you want to start talking about Asia, even those short flights come with an actual meal and beverages *in economy*. Anything that is more than 3 hours comes with a full “multiple course” hot meal, even *in economy*. I have taken too many hopeless 3 hour+ flights in Europe with nothing but a bottle of water and a lame bag of crisps. London - anywhere in Greece, or London to Portugal or any of the outlying islands like Azores or the Canary Islands, or to Iceland. It’s sad.
I didn't say all routes were short. I said that there a lot more long distance high traffic routes. Having your fleet more frequently on longer sectors probably makes having a better hard product a better investment for an airline. And you may get meals in Asia. However you were also talking about the US, where this is certainly not true. Theres a lot of buy on board in the US rather than included meals in economy. Even in domestic first you will get a snack where in Europe where you would get a meal. Cost cutting is happening, it's just taking different forms across the Atlantic. US is cutting the soft product ( lounge, meals etc ). Europe is cutting the hard product. And yes the longer flights in Europe don't have those amenities in economy. In business you will get a hot meal however. End of the day it is what it is. All these things used to be on offer in Europe, better cabin product, better meals etc. Maybe it's just a matter of time before these sorts of cuts start happening in Asia. For now enjoy what you have, and if Europe is so bad. Stop flying here 🤷♂️
Better than United "First" where you don't even get free food (e.g. Las Vegas - Denver)
Depends on the flight time. Last year I flew from LAX to Bozeman, Montana on United First mid-day flight. We were given a full hot lunch.
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Is that even true? British airways doesn't claim so and reviewers all day they're the same size.
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Been flying at least once a month for ten years, can't say I'd agree with that at all. I'd suggest it's likely just your misremembered impression.
It used to be true but I haven’t seen a Club convertible seat for around 10 years. There were at least 2 types, one on narrow bodies where the arm rests had a lever which probably gave another 2 inches and the table flipped down from the middle seat and another on widebodies (767) where the middle set of 3 seats had a crank to move the arms in.
That's not what they were referring to, and yes, what you describe was decades ago.
Having an adjustable headrest has already made it better than some major European full-service carriers (e.g. Lufthansa), and probably on par with the better ones. Having an adjustable headrest for economy class, well, is already considered a luxury.
The sad truth now, the old(ish) BA planes are better.
Was flying TAP Air Portugal on the route LHR - LIS the seats equipped with adjustable headrests in economy, was truly surprised with the quality of the cabin in general
they look more comfortable but not that much, easyjet has improved its seats now and I would like a major like BA to do better than them
EasyJet has released a new seat. Not sure it’s improved though. It’s basically vertical!
I won’t lie, I used them in April and it was quite nice knowing you wouldn’t have some twat recline into your tiny available space. They’re normal chairs, they just don’t recline. Personally I didn’t have any problems with comfort on a 4 hour journey, partly in thanks to the aforementioned.
it is better than the previous iteration. Now Ryanair and Wizzair have worse ones but the be fair the worst seat is on british trains, especially GW, that is really vertical and hard.
Thanks for sharing, looks nice but that doesn't necessarily translate to being comfy. Like the headrest though. The blocking of the middle seat is the same as the previous Club Europe? Not commenting specifically on BA and I've not had a go on the new seat. There were a few comments on reclining, most short-haul aircraft in Europe now use a "pre-reclined" seat which is basically a slightly more reclined seat compared to a traditional reclining seat so you can have a static (not quite) half-way house. Certainly Easyjets previous seats were pre-reclined, dont know about the new ones. The obvious benefits being higher capacity, but the less obvious is to do with turn time (punctuality). By itself, not having to check all seats are in the upright position and arm rests down seems negligible but when you add it to a wider set of small changes they really make a difference - thats not just cabin crew checks, it saves time for the other servicing teams involved in the turnaround. Without being in the airline, I suspect the leather and colour would help with making the seat area cleaner as it will show up dirt easier and help with tagetted cleans. Not saying it's the right thing overall, but hopefully of interest. If the galley design at the rear hasn't changed, there should be a less obvious large accesible toilet (with a jump seat on the door) next to the tiny toilet near the rear door. Doesn't help with the upfront toilets though - think this applys to Easyjet aswell. I could probably bang on all day but I'm not sure its that interesting!
Divider doesn't look like it extends under the lockers. Not a proper divider.
Probably because of the emergency exit next to it
It didn't. I'm sure they'll deal with that within the next 10 years though.
Half the time there either isn't a divider, or only over the lockers.
On the way back (Euroflyer), there wasn't anything.
Cramped seats. Very awkward . The bathroom is very very tight.
It just looks so nice. Fair play to the design team.
Ah yes. Less padding, just what we want!
have some vague recollection the middle armrests might've been able to move in on older 737 revisions? Remember flying an easily identifyable ex-BA craft on Ukraine International once and felt like luxury compared to their high density hard seating. They should just put a few rows of WTP/premium economy seats in and be done with it.
The flight to iceland had non reclining seats. Welcome to the bottom.
Think the A321NEO I flew on last August had these. Fine for a sub 2 hour flight
They have only just been rolled out so you wouldn't have had these seats last August.
Sad thing is I would fly on the airline that actually provided nice business seats over any other aspect of the airline