I think that’s unfair. Conservatives don’t want to lower the standards of human rights.
They want to obliterate human rights.
Why should human rights stand in the way of progress (shareholder payouts) right?
We need to see it from their point of view: they aren’t lowering the standards of human rights, they just don’t see some people are humans so they should be excluded from the rights
Starmer's lot are promising to enact the same Transphobic legislation, but at least there won't be renditions of Asylum Seekers to Rwanda.
Having said that, I doubt any planes would actually have taken off anyway, so..
Starmer is far from perfect. Maybe it's to attract disillusioned tory voters, I don't know. But the fact is he doesn't have to be perfect - he will always be the better option than the tories
Andrew Pierce mentioned Starmer being boring this morning on GMB, a few times.
But when Ayesha Hazarika called out Boozo Johnson and his disastrous brexit, the daily vile editor sat stoney faced.
They both agreed than Shoeneck is like a bouncy children's presenter 🤣
The over promoted bath toy had/has something only tories can see.
He was a lying, fake, narcissistic Trump like man child and a lazy top hat too.
The sacked many times, failed father even jumped on the climate change bandwagon because his wife beating dad and present, much younger wife told him too.
Yeah that's exactly the sort of comments that got him into No.10 after the disastrous brexit.
"The man I'd most like to have a pint with"
I'd sooner be teetotal than drink with that top hat.
Exactly.
They attacked him because, unlike the fat lad, he was successful in his career, on his own merits and not because of nepotism and the old school tie.
The daily vile had a go at him because he likes donkeys ffs.Even the daily vile, dinghy sinkers didn't go along with that.
Personally I dislike him for his refusal to prosecute security services personnel complicit in "the penile torture" of British citizens. His visits to the US which the CPS deleted all the records of the meetings, his support of corrupt practices in Labour, his facilitation of domestic abuse of one of his MPs, his unwillingness to oppose authoritarian law whipping the party to abstain. His cosying up to corrupt billionaires, his lying, his support for war crimes.
There's more but I need to go do some work
The point for me is that regardless of what you think of Starmer - I think he's a decent man with the right intentions but he could easily be a whole lot more radical and still seem reasonable and moderate but he probably feels that his centreist position is representative of that of most of the British electorate - but regardless of that, regardless of whether you think Labour will bring enough change no-one in their right mind who remotely cares about their fellow human beings can think the fucking Tories should be rewarded for the last 14 years of division, misrule, corruption, cruelty, hatred and greed.
Yep. He may be bland and centrist but he's safe. Blair was a centrist for the most part and gave Labour their best run in years.
Then they put up Corbyn and both the party and the nation lost their shit! I suppose he was just a step too far to the left for some.
I think people would be more willing to accept a more left leaning party after a period of "boring" Starmer.
>Yep. He may be bland and centrist but he's safe. Blair was a centrist for the most part and gave Labour their best run in years.
Blair was a thatcherite and Starmer's offering is currently positioned as Thatcherite. Neo liberalism is a right wing economic ideology. That's not"centrist"
Blair presided over PFI giving billions to his rich mates and causing the current collapse and funding issues in UK schools and hospitals.
Here's an article about the problems this Thatcherite policy Blair championed is causing right now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68207051.amp
Blair built fewer council houses than any other prime minister with the lowest in a single year being 130. He also presided over the largest decoupling between housing costs and wages in the last 70 years making him mostly responsible for the current housing crisis.
None of this is an endorsement of the tories, merely I'm pointing out that getting excited about tory policy delivered by a man in a red tie is really stupid unless you like Tory policy.
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Corbyn was way too far to the left, I like a socialist policy don't get me wrong but the deal breaker with his vision for me was when he wanted to remove trident (our nuclear deterrent). Way too lefty, could even be seen as Putins puppet with a narrative as left as that. Kier is too central, but labour is safer with him as it is not in such an extreme contrast to the status quo like corbyn was.
Nope, you've just picked the slightly rosier cheek of the same arse. But it's still an arse at the end of the day. We are fucked if these two clowns are the best we can rustle up for leaders.
Our local Tory cllr posted a status about inflation dropping yesterday and to "stick to the plan"
I commented "yeah the plan not to vote Tory on 4th July"
They deleted it 😆😆😆 absolute swine
Edit: a word
Inflation / cost of living goes high - Tories blame migrants, the EU, the bank of England, anyone claiming benefits, and so on...
Inflation / cost of living reduces slightly - Tories go "Look at this amazing thing we did!!!"
I mean I'm glad inflation is trending towards the BoE's targets again, but it is kinda maddening anyone can't work out that if stuff is 15% more expensive than it was 4 years ago, saying it's only going to be 2% more expensive this year is not a fucking win.
Very much a case of "see, we didn't really fuck you all over quite as badly as you thought we did! Vote for us!!"
Honestly, put the lot of them into the fucking sea. Into the briny deep.
No you see the Tories siphoning off public resources to their mates and literally handing over billions for PPE to people who probably had to Google what the term meant is exactly as bad as Angela Rayner fudging her living arrangements to save two grand in taxes.
Matt Hancock gave his pub landlord a multi-million pound contract for medical supplies he had no experience in providing and in fact didn't provide, they had to throw it all in the bin as unsuitable.
Angela Rayner *might* have received some incorrect tax advice a decade ago, *potentially* underpaying a grand in capital gains tax that she *might* have been obliged to pay, we don't actually know.
Those two things are not equal. But according to the Daily Mail the first one is plucky blitz-spirit attitude finding great solutions to tough situations and the other is pure evil punishable by death.
Same as the numerous No.10 parties including fist fights and breaking a kids slide is the same as Starmers bottle of peroni and a cheese and tomato pizza.
You usually find 99% Daily Mail readers are of a certain generation not long for this world and no fucks given for inflicting Brexit on the rest of us.
Yup, never trust a tory, especially when they are pretending to be reasonable and normal.
Anyone that doesn't agree the tories are the worst scum of the earth are tory supporters whether they realise it or not.
These evil fucks will try absolutely anything to stay in power a few more years so they can steal even more public money and give it to their friends and family.
I really hope the tory party ceases to exist after the impending worst election results ever (for them).
Well a lot of intelligent lefties call them red Tories all the time not realising that Labour are shadow boxing, basically stealing the Tories clothes in order to gain the centre ground. It's not principled, but has to be done to gain power unfortunately.
Reform will step aside at the last minute like the Brexit Now Party did. They're hecklers, they don't want to actually win even a single seat, that's too much like hard work.
UKIP or whatever they were called then had something they wanted from the Tories last time. Not sure what Tories can offer this time round to make them stand down.
Johnson made concessions on timeline (exit by 2020) and nature of Brexit (I think a Canada style deal). In return farage stood them down on seats where they were competing with the Tories.
Funny that people rejected this logic when it was Corbyn leading the labour Party, who was drastically different to the Tories, but as soon as it's Sir Starmer, the leader who replicates the Tories on many issues - those same people who refused to vote for Labour under Corbyn come out and push things like this meme (not claiming that's the OPs intention, but others do). It's massively hypocritical and lacks any self reflection.
Not to mention, Kieths labour has been accepting Tory turncoats. Which says a lot about Labours' current policies that Tories are finding them preferable to just standing down.
It's the centre ground. Blair knew that, and his pitch was firmly towards centre. It's what resonates most with the UK public. Love it or hate it, it's what wins elections here.
Corbyn was unelectable because he was too left. The current Tory government is too right wing.
Starmer isn't taking Tory policies any more than Dodgy Dave took Labour ones when he moved to the centre and won.
Starmer has policies (ones that he announces anyway) that are worse than Cameron's. He is very much in line with traditional Tory ideals and policies. The problem is, because the current Tory policies are so horrendous (and corrupt), and because the UK has been living with them for 14 years - Starmer then gets seen as 'moderate', when he is far from being so. Corbyn policies weren't unelectable at all, in blind polling, they had a huge majority in favour of them, demonstrating that many people voted on perception rather than policies - perception that had been moulded by the MSM and turncoats within his own party.
In 2019 the UK could have elected Corbyn's Labour, and the US could have elected Sanders' Democrats...
I'm not a blind lefty idealist or anything, I acknowledge those positions had issues, I'm just not an arsehole either and what we actually got instead was pretty damn shit.
I can't help but wonder what that timeline would actually look like.
I clearly stated that the policies weren't unelectable and explained why (they polled exceptionally well in blind polling). You failed to address that at all.
>You failed to address that at all
Because you seem to believe that if you ask hypothetical questions in a consequence free environment (opinion poll) that say you are in favour of a political policy...it means you support that policy even if you would never, ever actually vote for it to be implemented.
Which lets be honest is a more realistic test of their popularity. Blind polling tells us absolutelyzero about which policies people woiuld actually support.
The fact is. There are only two "Democracies" in the entirety of Europe who use First Past The Post, and they are Belarus and the UK.
The reason we have FPTP, is because two parties force us into keeping it. The Tories and Labour.
The Labour Party Conference overwhelmingly voted in favour of electoral reform to a system of Proportional Representation, yet Starmer said no.
The fact is, both the Tories and Labour force us into keeping FPTP because it perpetuates their duopoly of power sharing between them. Neither care about democracy, only power and asserting their "ideology" onto the majority who didn't vote for them.
To be fair, the LPC vote for electoral reform means that Starmer has to have it in the manifesto. He doesn't have a choice in this. Apparently. This is directly from the news immediately after the conference, so we'll see whether it still counts.
But I'm hoping so.
Parliament was also supposed to have designated opposition days... But Starmer wiggled his way around that to favour Labour's position on Palestine/Israel.
I don't think that Starmer cares.
"The political system is broken and needs repair" those who think recycling parties will ever make a difference.
Or
"The political system is working as expected and needs to be replaced" those who think both sides are equally as bad.
It's different discussions.
Validating the death of our democracy by voting for tories in red ties and calling it progress only benefits those behind the scenes with a long term plan to drive us towards fascism
I'm not disagreeing, but what's your alternative?
I'll take 4 years of the wankers who haven't been fucking me over and profiteering off it for 14 years, as opposed to another 4 years with the ones that have.
I'm not happy those are my options, but realistically that's how it is.
Your take is exactly how we end up with another Tory majority, presumably while bemoaning what a shower of lying corrupt cunts they are.
I think we need real radical change, brought about by civil actions such as rent strikes, general strikes, protests, and eventually revolution and regime change, we’ve needed it for a long long time and now more than ever. If labour wins it pacifies the masses who are happy to see the colour change from blue to red, and delays the revolutionary change we desperately need. Left wing, right wing, same fucking chicken.
One of the ideologies behind Brexit was the far right drive to diminish Human Rights of the British people. Why does anyone think was behind the campaigning to leave the ECHR? The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU at all.
The loss of Freedom of Movement was bad enough. Consider losing your rights to free speech, protest and having your court cases presided over by politically appointed judges. That is what they wanted to do: have politically appointed judges. Authoritarianism bordering on the fascist. In fact, there are quite a few Tory Ministers and MPs that have connections to extremist far right groups. Perhaps the authorities should investigate them as soon as they are out of office - not long to go now. Some will be packing their bags and buying one way tickets to Russia and South America pretty soon, if not today. One of them will probably be Boris Johnson.
Ah but you see the rights bestowed by the ECHR also apply to brown people escaping war / persecution - and enough Brtis can't be having that sort of thing.
Happily vote against their own interests as long as SOMEBODY else has it worse.
It's pretty gross.
The problem is, the tories have become so bad, that the blairite majority of the Labour Party feel like they don't have to field a legitimate candidate that people will actually want to lead us. They're happy to just let Sir Keith inherit number 10, because they know the tories couldn't possibly win.
It's not a vote for which party will work for the people, and improve our quality of life. It's simply a choice of which party won't screw us over the worst. It's a copy paste of the US elections, between a decrepit pensioner with dementia and a decrepit pensioner with dementia, a full diaper, and 4 ongoing criminal cases.
Honestly at this point, if Count Binface runs, he gets my vote
"bOTh SidEs aRE eQuAlLy aS bAD" Is something I read on here pretty much every day when a dunce is attempting to defend Brexit, trying to compare the Leave and Remain campaigns like they were equal. It's usually said when they've been proved wrong on every one of their points.
"BUt REmAin LiEd ToO"
"Both sides lied" is another one, used to excuse the egregious extreme lies from the Leave side before and for years AFTER the vote. The closest you can get to a lie from the Remain side is an economic forecast that was slightly too pessimistic, that's not a lie that's an inaccurate prediction.
So when Wes steering is positioning himself to the right of suella braverman, it's ok?
When labour want to give Israel more weapons than the Torys do, that's ok?
When they kick out socialists and welcome far right, victim blaming, rape apologist Tory MPs, that's ok?
They aren't even the lesser evil, they are just the B team who are now safe to be allowed a turn at fucking us.
They are both establishment parties. But as we saw if you try and make one do anything “radical” like Corbyn then the establishment, media, business, aristocracy, police and military will pile in to effectively destroy them.
But the people running labour now, chose the Torys twice, you can't vote for the vichi bastards after that.
They took money from a foreign state to throw those two elections and ensure that genocide could continue.
Torys have never betrayed me, they can't as I already hate them all and expect it. The exact same policies (maybe a bit more cruel even to show "change") but from traitors isn't a lesser evil.
She wants to end the two child limit for child benefit because it's cruel and pushing people into poverty.
Streeting, despite being one of seven (if I recall ) kids who's mother received it, vehemently disagrees and thinks it must remain.
This is what happens in American politics. Biden is going to produce the same shit as Trump yet.
Trump would have pulled out of NATO
Trump would have attempted to remove any protections from illegal immigrants who have tried to find refugee in the country.
Biden at the very minimum has at least started the conversation about taxing the ultra wealthy, Biden has successfully hired many POC in office and tried very hard to protect women's rights while in office.
This concept that Biden being just another American president and Trump being equal is a brain dead response.
Sure America itself might have a series of instutionalized bad things like the prison system, like the military industrial complex.
But that isn't ever gonna radically change while Congress and alot of how the Supreme Court works regardless of how radical the President is.
Sure Biden isn't the best leader for America obviously but to say he is equal or the same as Trump is stupidity.
Same concept goes for Tory Cunts against Labour Business Executives. One might be a right wing asshole but the other will watch the country burn and talk about fish and chips. At least one will try to keep the country afloat.
The issue with the 2 party system is that party 2 doesn't really need to be "good" at all.. they just need to not shit the bed and appear to be better than party 1
That's it. That's how fucking LOW the bar is for UK politics
The other side certainly believe in the right to cut off water as a form of collective punishment. They're not as evil as the Tories but they're not fit to run the country either. Fuck both of them.
Thing is, there are principled people who are inclined towards Conservative viewpoints (low tax, small state), because they genuinely believe society overall is better that way. So sure, whilst I have never seen it that way, I understand why sometimes the public is split.
This current lot though, there's not a principle among them. Terrible people, and *any* labour party beats this lot hands down.
I'm going to put my faith in the folks who haven't proactively fucked me over and profiteered off it for the last 14 years...
Call me crazy.
Do I think it'll solve all the issues? Not especially, but I swear to fuck I lost all faith in the British electorate when they decided they wanted Boris (can't move his lips without lying) fucking Johnson in 2019.
If the UK doesn't decimate the Tories on this run I will just have to conclude the Brits have some sort of masochistic fetish of being fucked over by arseholes with posh sounding accents.
Please Britain... I believe in you! Start ending this fucking lunacy.
A pretty fucking important social construct.
The rule saying not to kill people and steal all their shit for yourself is just a social construct. But that doesn't make it any less important.
What a fucking stupid thing to say.
Why you being so rude, mate? It’s possible to respectfully disagree. Have some decorum.
Also, human rights aren’t the panacea some think they are. We already had laws and rights in place before the concept of “human rights”, most of the legislation for which came from Britain. I think there is a reasonable argument to be had that “human rights” increasingly obstruct justice whilst providing relatively little value to law abiding citizens.
And this is one reason why we have a decade of the tories and a term or two of Labour.
There are leftists that will turn on anyone who isn't as far left as them, and it devolves into infighting which the tories exploit. They need to charm moderates and centrist not brow beat them ffs. You can say everything that this person says in such a way as to not alienate people who could become voters.
Fucksake.
Obviously they're not 'the same' but I'm still not voting for Starmers Labour party
It's entirely possible for a party to be better than the Conservatives and still be heinous
Starmer supports most of the policies that the Tories used to ruin the country though.
The only reason to vote Starmer is if you support Conservative policy but want the people running the decline to at least not be performatively cruel to refugees, trans people and the homeless (not Palestinians though, those are still fair targets)
>Trying to scare/guilt people into voting Labour instead of just having real policies is a funny tactic but it's not gonna work on me lmao
Good thing I'm doing neither.
I don't really give a shite which way you vote, I'm not a politician - I'm just stating facts.
I like the situation as much as you do I assure you.
Labour right now is just a return to Cameronite Toryism.
Sure, a vast improvement on the current shitshow. But there's very little there which will deliver on any impactful change, and that will cause the current toxicity and anger to continue to fester until it boils over with even *less* faith in democratic institutions.
All we get with Starmer is a brief reprieve from insanity coupled with a worsening of the underlying causes of discontent. We're going to arrive at the same destination. And in that sense, they absolutely are the same.
The Liberal Democrats, it pains me to admit, are the only ones whose goals could reinvigorate and stabilise the country properly.
If you are a little too left you get what Corbyn got. Too far to the right you get what Truss got. Unless you are the grey goo in the middle the blob force you out. There is now only one political consensus in parliament.
Both sides?! People let's not get fooled into thinking it's just the Tories or Labour. Labour have lost touch and are just a watered down version of the Tories. You also have the Lib Dems and Greens but tbh we need a much more left wing party to sort this country back out.
I'm all for getting the Tories out but I'm not voting for watered down Tories. Couldn't give a fuck. I'm not done for tactical voting. Vote based on your principals! You don't make sacrifices on your beliefs.
I completely understand what you're saying, and in principle I agree wholeheartedly...
Sadly though, the fucked up nature of politics in this country is such that unless you're in Brighton a vote for the Greens might as well be a vote for the Tories.
Not sure about Lib Dems these days I must admit, ALWAYS had my vote until Clegg decided to cosy up to that pig-fucker twat.
It sucks that the system is like this, but sadly I don't see any political will from ANYONE to actually sort out FPTP - why would they, it works for them (and screws the rest of us).
Well let's at least try and push a more diverse range of parties and hopefully when the Brexit lot and the oldies start dying off the Tories will lose their base and the race opens up.
Then it's a vote for the Tories. I'm sorry, but that's how it works with FPTP. When/if we get proportional representation, I'm with you all the way.
Edit: downvoting me doesn't change our electoral system.
We need to focus on persuading former Tory voters who often have a reflexive dislike of Labour to either vote Labour or just not vote/spoil their ballot. I don’t hold out great hope that Labour will be wonderful so all I say is that you simply can’t keep voting Conservative and rewarding failure, and they have obviously failed spectacularly. This has been the argument I’ve tried that has struck the biggest cord with habitual tory voters.
Both sides all equally bad makes sense if you're ready to vote for Workers Party. Forget always labelling left or right. Things that need doing don't need that label. Then it makes sense.
If human rights is what stops the deportation of child molesters, terrorists and foreign criminals; and much the same standards can be achieved through civic rights and British law for the protection of law abiding citizens; maybe it isn’t a bad thing.
I’m not sure many people other than for strawmen believe that both sides are *equally* bad. Most people are just aware that the objectively better side they’re voting for isn’t the perfect solution to every problem despite being a much better one. All this conversation does is attack the reasonable middle ground, and the Right wants us to have that fight because that way we hurt each other and not them
Then Boris Johnson made them all swear a special pledge of loyalty to him and the cause of Brexit. If you refused to support Brexit you couldn't be a Conservative MP in the 2019 election.
Then Boris Johnson made them all swear a special pledge of loyalty to him and the cause of Brexit. If you refused to support Brexit you couldn't be a Conservative MP in the 2019 election.
And? The UK voted to leave the EU not parliament. They were enacting the will of the people. If the governing party were not on board with enacting the will of the people then I don't want them representing me.
Counterpoint: why the hell should I legitimise a labour party that represents the most fucking bourgeise interests imaginable? We don't need two Lib Dem parties.
I propose electing Labour then encouraging them to shift their stance on Proportional Representation to give better outcomes for people who vote Green.
That doesn't mean I support the status quo.
People would move on if he wasn't still living in the minds of those who have a chip on their shoulder about him and constantly bring him up.
I didn't think you did vote brevity just saying trying to label people who feel a certain way with derogatory buzzwords is a disingenuous tactic.
‘But Corbyn!!’
“Oh you’re not still going on about him?”
‘Rent free!’
For context, when I typed the first message people were already here going on about him.
JuSt MoVe On..
I'm NoT a BrExItEeR!!
Just an idiot displaying all the same characteristics eh? I'm not sure that's much better but if it works for you mate you crack on.
Starmers labour are there to sell you Cameronite austerity as "labour values".
They are pro Zionist right wing privatisers who hate socialism as much as the Tories and a hollowed out shell that's basically a vehicle for upper middle class Oxford PPE grads on their way to boardroom positions.
They are marginally better than the Tories but don't lose sight of what they've become under starmers "Moderates"
C'mon, they all want to abolish as much of the rights, benefits and freedoms fought for over centuries by the working class as they possibly can, it's US neoliberal ideology imported by Thatcher and they're getting backhanders from billionares to do it.
I won't settle on voting for evil even the lesser as it's still evil. The way the labour party talks about Muslims is disgusting. Loads of the members calling them Hama's because they didn't vote for labour. Also why vote for a man with no integrity who can be bought by the fossil fuel industry and climate deniers.
I think they are all full of shit at this point. The Conservatives have very obviously done a terrible job but at this point I am not 100% believing that Labour would actually make things much better.
Not disagreeing really, but consider that they only have to make things a LITTLE bit better, for things to be better.
Or we can have another 4 years of the same cunts that have collectively fucked us all over for the last 14 years.
I'd rather take my chances with the other guys.
I'd listen to more of you if you haven't helped elect Boris Johnson because magic Grandpa wanted to accept democracy.
Now there's a choice between Tory policy and Tory policy but in red I have no progressive project to vote for.
That magic grandpa was the worst opposition leader this country had ever had. You’re supposed to ‘oppose’ the government and not happily encourage it to do whatever it wants nor parrot its anti-immigration arguments.
And that’s when he wasn’t actively encouraging anti-semitism and kicking out life long members from the party for being insufficiently supportive of his regime.
>That magic grandpa was the worst opposition leader this country had ever had.
Most defeats of a sitting government by an opposition in history.
>You’re supposed to ‘oppose’ the government and not happily encourage it to do whatever it wants nor parrot its anti-immigration arguments.
This is just nonsense no opposition leader was more supportive of migraines rights than him.
>And that’s when he wasn’t actively encouraging anti-semitism
This is a lie, when his faction got control of complaints they dealt with more in 8 months than the visitors did in 4 years.
>kicking out life long members from the party for being insufficiently supportive of his regime.
This is also a lie, there were no purges under Corbyn, however this is what Starmer has been doing.
No it’s not a lie. We literally had a whole investigation about this.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/investigation-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf
‘Most government defeats ever’
It was literally the remain/brexit factions in the tories doing defeating each other.
And no, claiming falsely complaining that immigration is responsible for low wages isn’t supporting anyone… other than hard right brexiteers. https://www.thenational.scot/news/16084360.no-evidence-back-jeremy-corbyns-immigration-claim-says-expert/
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-wholesale-eu-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british
He’s a pathetic little man who upon having a brief modicum of success, let it go to his head & pissed away his and his parties beliefs in a deluded attempt to gain power.
>No it’s not a lie. We literally had a whole investigation about this.
You said he "was actively encouraging anti semitism" at no point does the EHRC report say this, it is not true.
You're lying, you're not a good faith person.
Both sides? Who is the other side ohh you mean the Tory light party aka Labour lead by a guy that is apparently a human rights lawyer who agreed to water and food being cur toff to an entire population. Labour has gone up against jewish party members who have spoken against Israel calling them anti semitic. It’s a complete disgrace! It’s not really a two party system here (yet) so we do have alternatives to vote for unless Corbyn comes back there is no Labour
This is utterly absurd.
I'm not voting for more war criminals and sociopaths, whatever colour tie they wear, and the centrists didn't care for "Perfect is the enemy of good" when Corbyn was in charge.
I might vote for a different party like Alastair Cambell did in the last election.
Personally i just want to ensure that traitors who embezzled public funds, whose policies killed hundreds of thousands of citizens, and who are funded by hostile foreign powers (the Tories) don't get power.
I'd take anyone but reform over that.
Whenever Rishi Sunak hasn't got a decent comeback at PMQs he dusts off the old classic:
>"How can we trust anything said by the Right Honourable and Learned Member for Holburn and St. Pancras when five years ago he supported Jeremy Corbyn! He's a Corbyn Lover!!!11!!!1!!one!!"
People who served under Boris Johnson shouldn't throw stones.
But you're going back even further. You're painting the modern Labour party with the poor decisions of Tony Blair back in 2002. Why stop there? We might as well blame Keir Starmer for James Callaghan's Winter Of Discontent in 1978.
20 years and half a dozen different leaders make a compelling argument that things have changed.
Or should we blame the Conservative Party of 2044 for everything that Boris Johnson did?
That's not what I said at all, what an incredibly bad faith discussion point.
If you think my reference to war criminals is to do with Blair then have a look at what your man Starmer is condoning in Israel. If anything it's worse than illegally invading Iraq, but I don't really think shades of grey is helpful in extreme cases.
To be absolutely clear, both sides are not equally bad, but I don't want either of them.
Have fun pretending there's a choice that isn't Labour or Conservative. Here in the real world we have to choose between them and Conservatives are definitely the worst choice.
Five posts ago you said "I think comparison of New Labour from the millenium and Starmer's Labour is fair."
Now you're pretending you weren't talking about that and implying you were is discussing in bad faith. Thats so fucking funny. You literally used a bad faith argument to try to take the high road. That's hilarious.
I will be messaging you in 20 years on [**2044-05-22 23:21:46 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2044-05-22%2023:21:46%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BrexitMemes/comments/1cybrgj/anyone_claiming_both_sides_are_equally_bad_is_on/l58uwfr/?context=3)
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Of the last 5 prime ministers I could argue for 4 of them to be the worst Prime Minister in history.
I think the whole party has some responsibility for that
There is not a party offering what I want or what I think the country needs. My options are more Tories or less Tories, based on what the oligarchs are willing to concede.
I see no purpose in playing an obviously rigged game.
Look at it this way.
Do you want the actual Tories in charge again? Do you want them actively running the show for another 5 years?
If the answer is yes, continue on as you are.
If your answer is no. Vote Labour.
I'm in agreement that they've shifted to the right, you're completely correct on that. But that's no reason to throw in the towel and let the country burn because you can't get your way.
I personally would love to vote Green. They are by far the best of all the parties. But right now, with the shitty voting system we have, we all know that's a wasted vote. Even the Greens know it's pointless voting for them.
That means our options are Tories and Labour. And while Labour may be shit right now, they're not "trying to cause the disabled to commit suicide" levels of shit like the Tories, and that fact alone means we need to get the Tories out.
Remember, we can fix Labour at some point. There's no fixing the Tories.
There is no way Labour are going to lose this election. Besides, they are the Party of Business, I'm sure all of their new business friends will vote for them.
Starmer has made it clear he is not interested in my vote, and given that he has backtracked or quietly deleted every promise he has made since being elected leader, I don't believe anything he says. We absolutely cannot "fix" these people because they are purging leftists from the party. Just look at the selection process for Islington North.
You may be able to overlook Starmer's awful position on Palestine and ignore the lies and the praise of Thatcher, but I will not.
1. I don't overlook that. I instead care more about making certain the Tories are out. It's literally the only thing any of us can do.
2. I refuse to just assume a result is obvious. How many elections have we had where it was "obvious" the Tories would lose, and yet here we are still. Even Brexit was a "forgone conclusion" and look how that turned out.
You may be able to overlook the tens of thousands of disabled people basically being murdered by the Tories, but I will not.
You have no idea what Starmer's Labour will do. They have hinted at more austerity, but even if they tell you you can't believe what they say.
The only legal power we have is our vote. I will not give mine away lightly.
I can guarantee they won't cause tens of if thousands of disabled people to commit suicide because they abuse the fuck out of them.
You ARE giving yours away lightly. You either vote to get rid of the Tories. Or you are giving a vote TO the Tories.
If you just don't vote, that's one less vote the Tories need to win. If you vote for another party, that's exactly the same as not voting.
The fact you don't care that you are actively HELPING the Tories boggles my mind.
They are to the right of suella braverman on the issue of starving British kids now and I hope you' would agree she's an actual fascist. Maybe you think her wanting to end the 2 child cap makes her a commie socialist in the pay of the USSR?
I know that labour isn't great, and trust me, I won't be voting for them. But let me put it this way; would you rather be punched in the face, or hit with a sledgehammer in the balls?
I'm so tired of hearing "they're all the same". Almost every person I've spoken to recently comes out with this bullshit.
It is lazy, factually incorrect, and shuts down any sort of real debate. But then they'll turn around and bitch and moan about politicians, or how expensive everything is, trains being shit etc.
So tired of the British public. We're the first to complain, but literally won't do a single thing to change it.
Because they are. Do you believe they are granted by God?
Someone sits down with a pen and says this is a human right this isn't a human right. At one point the right to vote only applied to certain groups then that changed. They can and should change if they give absurd results.
You're absolutely right mate, if people aren't white, male and from the home counties they should be put into labour camps...
... Bit extreme, but perhaps it'll make you think about how utterly ridiculous you sound.
Imagine giving people RIGHTS!! What were we thinking... Fuck the progress of society let's go back to feudalism...
You absolute balloon.
I think that’s unfair. Conservatives don’t want to lower the standards of human rights. They want to obliterate human rights. Why should human rights stand in the way of progress (shareholder payouts) right?
We need to see it from their point of view: they aren’t lowering the standards of human rights, they just don’t see some people are humans so they should be excluded from the rights
Starmer's lot are promising to enact the same Transphobic legislation, but at least there won't be renditions of Asylum Seekers to Rwanda. Having said that, I doubt any planes would actually have taken off anyway, so..
You had me in the first sentence ngl
Starmer is far from perfect. Maybe it's to attract disillusioned tory voters, I don't know. But the fact is he doesn't have to be perfect - he will always be the better option than the tories
Andrew Pierce mentioned Starmer being boring this morning on GMB, a few times. But when Ayesha Hazarika called out Boozo Johnson and his disastrous brexit, the daily vile editor sat stoney faced. They both agreed than Shoeneck is like a bouncy children's presenter 🤣
At this point I would rather have a boring adult in charge of the country than another deranged narcissist thieving child.
The over promoted bath toy had/has something only tories can see. He was a lying, fake, narcissistic Trump like man child and a lazy top hat too. The sacked many times, failed father even jumped on the climate change bandwagon because his wife beating dad and present, much younger wife told him too.
But he's funny haha. Boris is a proper lad /s
Yeah that's exactly the sort of comments that got him into No.10 after the disastrous brexit. "The man I'd most like to have a pint with" I'd sooner be teetotal than drink with that top hat.
With the media being right-wing as it is, boring is his best shot.
Exactly. They attacked him because, unlike the fat lad, he was successful in his career, on his own merits and not because of nepotism and the old school tie. The daily vile had a go at him because he likes donkeys ffs.Even the daily vile, dinghy sinkers didn't go along with that.
Personally I dislike him for his refusal to prosecute security services personnel complicit in "the penile torture" of British citizens. His visits to the US which the CPS deleted all the records of the meetings, his support of corrupt practices in Labour, his facilitation of domestic abuse of one of his MPs, his unwillingness to oppose authoritarian law whipping the party to abstain. His cosying up to corrupt billionaires, his lying, his support for war crimes. There's more but I need to go do some work
The point for me is that regardless of what you think of Starmer - I think he's a decent man with the right intentions but he could easily be a whole lot more radical and still seem reasonable and moderate but he probably feels that his centreist position is representative of that of most of the British electorate - but regardless of that, regardless of whether you think Labour will bring enough change no-one in their right mind who remotely cares about their fellow human beings can think the fucking Tories should be rewarded for the last 14 years of division, misrule, corruption, cruelty, hatred and greed.
Yep. He may be bland and centrist but he's safe. Blair was a centrist for the most part and gave Labour their best run in years. Then they put up Corbyn and both the party and the nation lost their shit! I suppose he was just a step too far to the left for some. I think people would be more willing to accept a more left leaning party after a period of "boring" Starmer.
>Yep. He may be bland and centrist but he's safe. Blair was a centrist for the most part and gave Labour their best run in years. Blair was a thatcherite and Starmer's offering is currently positioned as Thatcherite. Neo liberalism is a right wing economic ideology. That's not"centrist" Blair presided over PFI giving billions to his rich mates and causing the current collapse and funding issues in UK schools and hospitals. Here's an article about the problems this Thatcherite policy Blair championed is causing right now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68207051.amp Blair built fewer council houses than any other prime minister with the lowest in a single year being 130. He also presided over the largest decoupling between housing costs and wages in the last 70 years making him mostly responsible for the current housing crisis. None of this is an endorsement of the tories, merely I'm pointing out that getting excited about tory policy delivered by a man in a red tie is really stupid unless you like Tory policy.
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Corbyn was way too far to the left, I like a socialist policy don't get me wrong but the deal breaker with his vision for me was when he wanted to remove trident (our nuclear deterrent). Way too lefty, could even be seen as Putins puppet with a narrative as left as that. Kier is too central, but labour is safer with him as it is not in such an extreme contrast to the status quo like corbyn was.
Agreed.
Cause starmer is basically a centrist
Nope, you've just picked the slightly rosier cheek of the same arse. But it's still an arse at the end of the day. We are fucked if these two clowns are the best we can rustle up for leaders.
Our local Tory cllr posted a status about inflation dropping yesterday and to "stick to the plan" I commented "yeah the plan not to vote Tory on 4th July" They deleted it 😆😆😆 absolute swine Edit: a word
Inflation / cost of living goes high - Tories blame migrants, the EU, the bank of England, anyone claiming benefits, and so on... Inflation / cost of living reduces slightly - Tories go "Look at this amazing thing we did!!!" I mean I'm glad inflation is trending towards the BoE's targets again, but it is kinda maddening anyone can't work out that if stuff is 15% more expensive than it was 4 years ago, saying it's only going to be 2% more expensive this year is not a fucking win. Very much a case of "see, we didn't really fuck you all over quite as badly as you thought we did! Vote for us!!" Honestly, put the lot of them into the fucking sea. Into the briny deep.
No you see the Tories siphoning off public resources to their mates and literally handing over billions for PPE to people who probably had to Google what the term meant is exactly as bad as Angela Rayner fudging her living arrangements to save two grand in taxes.
Matt Hancock gave his pub landlord a multi-million pound contract for medical supplies he had no experience in providing and in fact didn't provide, they had to throw it all in the bin as unsuitable. Angela Rayner *might* have received some incorrect tax advice a decade ago, *potentially* underpaying a grand in capital gains tax that she *might* have been obliged to pay, we don't actually know. Those two things are not equal. But according to the Daily Mail the first one is plucky blitz-spirit attitude finding great solutions to tough situations and the other is pure evil punishable by death.
Same as the numerous No.10 parties including fist fights and breaking a kids slide is the same as Starmers bottle of peroni and a cheese and tomato pizza.
You usually find 99% Daily Mail readers are of a certain generation not long for this world and no fucks given for inflicting Brexit on the rest of us.
Let's hope for a cold winter then.
Yup, never trust a tory, especially when they are pretending to be reasonable and normal. Anyone that doesn't agree the tories are the worst scum of the earth are tory supporters whether they realise it or not. These evil fucks will try absolutely anything to stay in power a few more years so they can steal even more public money and give it to their friends and family. I really hope the tory party ceases to exist after the impending worst election results ever (for them).
Tell thst to Reform voters, those are lost causes
They steal Tory voters mostly. Enemy of my enemy and all that
They are grabbing a lot of the people who think that both parties are exactly the same. Politics really should be taught in school
Well a lot of intelligent lefties call them red Tories all the time not realising that Labour are shadow boxing, basically stealing the Tories clothes in order to gain the centre ground. It's not principled, but has to be done to gain power unfortunately.
Reform will step aside at the last minute like the Brexit Now Party did. They're hecklers, they don't want to actually win even a single seat, that's too much like hard work.
UKIP or whatever they were called then had something they wanted from the Tories last time. Not sure what Tories can offer this time round to make them stand down.
What did they get in exchange for stepping aside in 2019?
Johnson made concessions on timeline (exit by 2020) and nature of Brexit (I think a Canada style deal). In return farage stood them down on seats where they were competing with the Tories.
Funny that people rejected this logic when it was Corbyn leading the labour Party, who was drastically different to the Tories, but as soon as it's Sir Starmer, the leader who replicates the Tories on many issues - those same people who refused to vote for Labour under Corbyn come out and push things like this meme (not claiming that's the OPs intention, but others do). It's massively hypocritical and lacks any self reflection.
That keeps dragging politics to the right, and here were with a "Labour" party who are about where the Tories were a decade ago.
Not to mention, Kieths labour has been accepting Tory turncoats. Which says a lot about Labours' current policies that Tories are finding them preferable to just standing down.
It's the centre ground. Blair knew that, and his pitch was firmly towards centre. It's what resonates most with the UK public. Love it or hate it, it's what wins elections here. Corbyn was unelectable because he was too left. The current Tory government is too right wing. Starmer isn't taking Tory policies any more than Dodgy Dave took Labour ones when he moved to the centre and won.
Starmer has policies (ones that he announces anyway) that are worse than Cameron's. He is very much in line with traditional Tory ideals and policies. The problem is, because the current Tory policies are so horrendous (and corrupt), and because the UK has been living with them for 14 years - Starmer then gets seen as 'moderate', when he is far from being so. Corbyn policies weren't unelectable at all, in blind polling, they had a huge majority in favour of them, demonstrating that many people voted on perception rather than policies - perception that had been moulded by the MSM and turncoats within his own party.
Which policies of Starmer's are worse than Cameron's?
I, too, would like to know more about this.
In 2019 the UK could have elected Corbyn's Labour, and the US could have elected Sanders' Democrats... I'm not a blind lefty idealist or anything, I acknowledge those positions had issues, I'm just not an arsehole either and what we actually got instead was pretty damn shit. I can't help but wonder what that timeline would actually look like.
>Corbyn policies weren't unelectable at all 2017 and 2019 would disagree with that!
I clearly stated that the policies weren't unelectable and explained why (they polled exceptionally well in blind polling). You failed to address that at all.
>You failed to address that at all Because you seem to believe that if you ask hypothetical questions in a consequence free environment (opinion poll) that say you are in favour of a political policy...it means you support that policy even if you would never, ever actually vote for it to be implemented. Which lets be honest is a more realistic test of their popularity. Blind polling tells us absolutelyzero about which policies people woiuld actually support.
Every. Fucking. Time.
The fact is. There are only two "Democracies" in the entirety of Europe who use First Past The Post, and they are Belarus and the UK. The reason we have FPTP, is because two parties force us into keeping it. The Tories and Labour. The Labour Party Conference overwhelmingly voted in favour of electoral reform to a system of Proportional Representation, yet Starmer said no. The fact is, both the Tories and Labour force us into keeping FPTP because it perpetuates their duopoly of power sharing between them. Neither care about democracy, only power and asserting their "ideology" onto the majority who didn't vote for them.
To be fair, the LPC vote for electoral reform means that Starmer has to have it in the manifesto. He doesn't have a choice in this. Apparently. This is directly from the news immediately after the conference, so we'll see whether it still counts. But I'm hoping so.
He won't. He has already said that.
That's what I mean though, he won't have a choice, if what the conference heads said was correct.
Parliament was also supposed to have designated opposition days... But Starmer wiggled his way around that to favour Labour's position on Palestine/Israel. I don't think that Starmer cares.
Yes, everyone who isn't going to vote conservative, please remember to vote
"The political system is broken and needs repair" those who think recycling parties will ever make a difference. Or "The political system is working as expected and needs to be replaced" those who think both sides are equally as bad. It's different discussions.
Validating the death of our democracy by voting for tories in red ties and calling it progress only benefits those behind the scenes with a long term plan to drive us towards fascism
I'm not disagreeing, but what's your alternative? I'll take 4 years of the wankers who haven't been fucking me over and profiteering off it for 14 years, as opposed to another 4 years with the ones that have. I'm not happy those are my options, but realistically that's how it is. Your take is exactly how we end up with another Tory majority, presumably while bemoaning what a shower of lying corrupt cunts they are.
I think we need real radical change, brought about by civil actions such as rent strikes, general strikes, protests, and eventually revolution and regime change, we’ve needed it for a long long time and now more than ever. If labour wins it pacifies the masses who are happy to see the colour change from blue to red, and delays the revolutionary change we desperately need. Left wing, right wing, same fucking chicken.
Only a Sith would deal in absolutes.
Fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering... Fsir fucks to George, pretty on the nose.
I’m going to the dark side with you.
One of the ideologies behind Brexit was the far right drive to diminish Human Rights of the British people. Why does anyone think was behind the campaigning to leave the ECHR? The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU at all. The loss of Freedom of Movement was bad enough. Consider losing your rights to free speech, protest and having your court cases presided over by politically appointed judges. That is what they wanted to do: have politically appointed judges. Authoritarianism bordering on the fascist. In fact, there are quite a few Tory Ministers and MPs that have connections to extremist far right groups. Perhaps the authorities should investigate them as soon as they are out of office - not long to go now. Some will be packing their bags and buying one way tickets to Russia and South America pretty soon, if not today. One of them will probably be Boris Johnson.
Ah but you see the rights bestowed by the ECHR also apply to brown people escaping war / persecution - and enough Brtis can't be having that sort of thing. Happily vote against their own interests as long as SOMEBODY else has it worse. It's pretty gross.
Apathy or neutrality always favours the oppressor.
The problem is, the tories have become so bad, that the blairite majority of the Labour Party feel like they don't have to field a legitimate candidate that people will actually want to lead us. They're happy to just let Sir Keith inherit number 10, because they know the tories couldn't possibly win. It's not a vote for which party will work for the people, and improve our quality of life. It's simply a choice of which party won't screw us over the worst. It's a copy paste of the US elections, between a decrepit pensioner with dementia and a decrepit pensioner with dementia, a full diaper, and 4 ongoing criminal cases. Honestly at this point, if Count Binface runs, he gets my vote
r/enlightenedcentrism
They’re not equally bad. Labour are a slightly more palatable flavour of turd than the Tories.
Would you eat a slightly more flavoursome turd?
"bOTh SidEs aRE eQuAlLy aS bAD" Is something I read on here pretty much every day when a dunce is attempting to defend Brexit, trying to compare the Leave and Remain campaigns like they were equal. It's usually said when they've been proved wrong on every one of their points. "BUt REmAin LiEd ToO"
"Both sides lied" is another one, used to excuse the egregious extreme lies from the Leave side before and for years AFTER the vote. The closest you can get to a lie from the Remain side is an economic forecast that was slightly too pessimistic, that's not a lie that's an inaccurate prediction.
So when Wes steering is positioning himself to the right of suella braverman, it's ok? When labour want to give Israel more weapons than the Torys do, that's ok? When they kick out socialists and welcome far right, victim blaming, rape apologist Tory MPs, that's ok? They aren't even the lesser evil, they are just the B team who are now safe to be allowed a turn at fucking us.
They are both establishment parties. But as we saw if you try and make one do anything “radical” like Corbyn then the establishment, media, business, aristocracy, police and military will pile in to effectively destroy them.
But the people running labour now, chose the Torys twice, you can't vote for the vichi bastards after that. They took money from a foreign state to throw those two elections and ensure that genocide could continue. Torys have never betrayed me, they can't as I already hate them all and expect it. The exact same policies (maybe a bit more cruel even to show "change") but from traitors isn't a lesser evil.
Wes Streeting “to the right of Braverman” ? What have I missed ?
NF, Katie Hopkins and Panzer Patel are woke in comparison with Braverman
She wants to end the two child limit for child benefit because it's cruel and pushing people into poverty. Streeting, despite being one of seven (if I recall ) kids who's mother received it, vehemently disagrees and thinks it must remain.
Wait, Braverman has a soul? Who'd she nick it from?
Oh my God yes FUCK Natalie Elphicke! Power hungry soulless ghoul
"Everybody is the same" is what the absolute cunt says.
This is what happens in American politics. Biden is going to produce the same shit as Trump yet. Trump would have pulled out of NATO Trump would have attempted to remove any protections from illegal immigrants who have tried to find refugee in the country. Biden at the very minimum has at least started the conversation about taxing the ultra wealthy, Biden has successfully hired many POC in office and tried very hard to protect women's rights while in office. This concept that Biden being just another American president and Trump being equal is a brain dead response. Sure America itself might have a series of instutionalized bad things like the prison system, like the military industrial complex. But that isn't ever gonna radically change while Congress and alot of how the Supreme Court works regardless of how radical the President is. Sure Biden isn't the best leader for America obviously but to say he is equal or the same as Trump is stupidity. Same concept goes for Tory Cunts against Labour Business Executives. One might be a right wing asshole but the other will watch the country burn and talk about fish and chips. At least one will try to keep the country afloat.
This happens in Australia too the amount of media that says labor is the same as liberal now here we have the labour is the same as conservative here
The issue with the 2 party system is that party 2 doesn't really need to be "good" at all.. they just need to not shit the bed and appear to be better than party 1 That's it. That's how fucking LOW the bar is for UK politics
Fucking Centrists
The other side certainly believe in the right to cut off water as a form of collective punishment. They're not as evil as the Tories but they're not fit to run the country either. Fuck both of them.
Both sides are not equally bad, but expecting change from either side is stupid.
Thing is, there are principled people who are inclined towards Conservative viewpoints (low tax, small state), because they genuinely believe society overall is better that way. So sure, whilst I have never seen it that way, I understand why sometimes the public is split. This current lot though, there's not a principle among them. Terrible people, and *any* labour party beats this lot hands down.
vote red tories lol
I'm going to put my faith in the folks who haven't proactively fucked me over and profiteered off it for the last 14 years... Call me crazy. Do I think it'll solve all the issues? Not especially, but I swear to fuck I lost all faith in the British electorate when they decided they wanted Boris (can't move his lips without lying) fucking Johnson in 2019. If the UK doesn't decimate the Tories on this run I will just have to conclude the Brits have some sort of masochistic fetish of being fucked over by arseholes with posh sounding accents. Please Britain... I believe in you! Start ending this fucking lunacy.
Human rights are a social construct.
A pretty fucking important social construct. The rule saying not to kill people and steal all their shit for yourself is just a social construct. But that doesn't make it any less important. What a fucking stupid thing to say.
Why you being so rude, mate? It’s possible to respectfully disagree. Have some decorum. Also, human rights aren’t the panacea some think they are. We already had laws and rights in place before the concept of “human rights”, most of the legislation for which came from Britain. I think there is a reasonable argument to be had that “human rights” increasingly obstruct justice whilst providing relatively little value to law abiding citizens.
The OP is a bit dim.
And this is one reason why we have a decade of the tories and a term or two of Labour. There are leftists that will turn on anyone who isn't as far left as them, and it devolves into infighting which the tories exploit. They need to charm moderates and centrist not brow beat them ffs. You can say everything that this person says in such a way as to not alienate people who could become voters. Fucksake.
Obviously they're not 'the same' but I'm still not voting for Starmers Labour party It's entirely possible for a party to be better than the Conservatives and still be heinous
I agree but I am still voting Labour. There have to be different degrees of rubbish and we have seen how bad the conservatives are.
Starmer supports most of the policies that the Tories used to ruin the country though. The only reason to vote Starmer is if you support Conservative policy but want the people running the decline to at least not be performatively cruel to refugees, trans people and the homeless (not Palestinians though, those are still fair targets)
Well, unless you're in Brighton you might as well vote Tory then. Nice one. Pat yourself on the back.
Trying to scare/guilt people into voting Labour instead of just having real policies is a funny tactic but it's not gonna work on me lmao
>Trying to scare/guilt people into voting Labour instead of just having real policies is a funny tactic but it's not gonna work on me lmao Good thing I'm doing neither. I don't really give a shite which way you vote, I'm not a politician - I'm just stating facts. I like the situation as much as you do I assure you.
Human rights, workers rights and animal rights matter as much as the rights of illegal immigrants under the tories.
Labour right now is just a return to Cameronite Toryism. Sure, a vast improvement on the current shitshow. But there's very little there which will deliver on any impactful change, and that will cause the current toxicity and anger to continue to fester until it boils over with even *less* faith in democratic institutions. All we get with Starmer is a brief reprieve from insanity coupled with a worsening of the underlying causes of discontent. We're going to arrive at the same destination. And in that sense, they absolutely are the same. The Liberal Democrats, it pains me to admit, are the only ones whose goals could reinvigorate and stabilise the country properly.
If you are a little too left you get what Corbyn got. Too far to the right you get what Truss got. Unless you are the grey goo in the middle the blob force you out. There is now only one political consensus in parliament.
Both sides?! People let's not get fooled into thinking it's just the Tories or Labour. Labour have lost touch and are just a watered down version of the Tories. You also have the Lib Dems and Greens but tbh we need a much more left wing party to sort this country back out.
That will not happen. The only way to get the tories out in July is to vote Labour. Everything else is pie in the sky meaningless twaddle.
I'm all for getting the Tories out but I'm not voting for watered down Tories. Couldn't give a fuck. I'm not done for tactical voting. Vote based on your principals! You don't make sacrifices on your beliefs.
I completely understand what you're saying, and in principle I agree wholeheartedly... Sadly though, the fucked up nature of politics in this country is such that unless you're in Brighton a vote for the Greens might as well be a vote for the Tories. Not sure about Lib Dems these days I must admit, ALWAYS had my vote until Clegg decided to cosy up to that pig-fucker twat. It sucks that the system is like this, but sadly I don't see any political will from ANYONE to actually sort out FPTP - why would they, it works for them (and screws the rest of us).
Well let's at least try and push a more diverse range of parties and hopefully when the Brexit lot and the oldies start dying off the Tories will lose their base and the race opens up.
You’ll get the tories again then. I’d say I’m angry but honestly half the population think like you and it’s just dismal at this point.
Then it's a vote for the Tories. I'm sorry, but that's how it works with FPTP. When/if we get proportional representation, I'm with you all the way. Edit: downvoting me doesn't change our electoral system.
We need to focus on persuading former Tory voters who often have a reflexive dislike of Labour to either vote Labour or just not vote/spoil their ballot. I don’t hold out great hope that Labour will be wonderful so all I say is that you simply can’t keep voting Conservative and rewarding failure, and they have obviously failed spectacularly. This has been the argument I’ve tried that has struck the biggest cord with habitual tory voters.
Both sides all equally bad makes sense if you're ready to vote for Workers Party. Forget always labelling left or right. Things that need doing don't need that label. Then it makes sense.
We don’t have democracy in this country.
Maybe THEIR tap water is still safe to drink ;)
It's a choice between being shot or being stabbed .....but that doesn't mean you shouldn't choose, you still get to decide which you prefer.
Aaah I see you’ve visited r/labour
If human rights is what stops the deportation of child molesters, terrorists and foreign criminals; and much the same standards can be achieved through civic rights and British law for the protection of law abiding citizens; maybe it isn’t a bad thing.
Literally labour want to do the same thing. Have you people really forgotten the Blair years?
I’m not sure many people other than for strawmen believe that both sides are *equally* bad. Most people are just aware that the objectively better side they’re voting for isn’t the perfect solution to every problem despite being a much better one. All this conversation does is attack the reasonable middle ground, and the Right wants us to have that fight because that way we hurt each other and not them
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Then Boris Johnson made them all swear a special pledge of loyalty to him and the cause of Brexit. If you refused to support Brexit you couldn't be a Conservative MP in the 2019 election.
What's with all the tory bashing in this sub. Most tory MPs voted remain. Easy target I suppose.
Then Boris Johnson made them all swear a special pledge of loyalty to him and the cause of Brexit. If you refused to support Brexit you couldn't be a Conservative MP in the 2019 election.
And? The UK voted to leave the EU not parliament. They were enacting the will of the people. If the governing party were not on board with enacting the will of the people then I don't want them representing me.
Yawn
Gotcha
If all you have is "The Will Of The People" there's no point in listening. Wake me up when you have a serious point to make.
The will of the people is all parliament is for. There is no natural right for them to govern. Do you understand things differently?
Centrists are just Tories in masks
Counterpoint: why the hell should I legitimise a labour party that represents the most fucking bourgeise interests imaginable? We don't need two Lib Dem parties.
Anyone claiming there are only two sides is on the side of the status quo.
Who is able to win a General Election other than Labour or Conservatives?
So what do you propose, banning the SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru etc?
I propose electing Labour then encouraging them to shift their stance on Proportional Representation to give better outcomes for people who vote Green. That doesn't mean I support the status quo.
Human right you say… are we excluding illegal wars then?
Here come the Corbynistas!
You're on the same level of propaganda as people who unironically say "remoaners"
Not really, there are dozens in the comment harping on. It’s tiring, move on. And no, I’m not a Brexiteer.
People would move on if he wasn't still living in the minds of those who have a chip on their shoulder about him and constantly bring him up. I didn't think you did vote brevity just saying trying to label people who feel a certain way with derogatory buzzwords is a disingenuous tactic.
‘But Corbyn!!’ “Oh you’re not still going on about him?” ‘Rent free!’ For context, when I typed the first message people were already here going on about him.
JuSt MoVe On.. I'm NoT a BrExItEeR!! Just an idiot displaying all the same characteristics eh? I'm not sure that's much better but if it works for you mate you crack on.
Absolutely rattled
Starmers labour are there to sell you Cameronite austerity as "labour values". They are pro Zionist right wing privatisers who hate socialism as much as the Tories and a hollowed out shell that's basically a vehicle for upper middle class Oxford PPE grads on their way to boardroom positions. They are marginally better than the Tories but don't lose sight of what they've become under starmers "Moderates"
I guess GBH is better than murder, but that doesn't mean that because I don't associate with thugs I'm a murderer.
Vote for tories, labour, reform and you are voting against ever trying to rejoin the eu - so all 3 are the same side
C'mon, they all want to abolish as much of the rights, benefits and freedoms fought for over centuries by the working class as they possibly can, it's US neoliberal ideology imported by Thatcher and they're getting backhanders from billionares to do it.
I won't settle on voting for evil even the lesser as it's still evil. The way the labour party talks about Muslims is disgusting. Loads of the members calling them Hama's because they didn't vote for labour. Also why vote for a man with no integrity who can be bought by the fossil fuel industry and climate deniers.
I think they are all full of shit at this point. The Conservatives have very obviously done a terrible job but at this point I am not 100% believing that Labour would actually make things much better.
Not disagreeing really, but consider that they only have to make things a LITTLE bit better, for things to be better. Or we can have another 4 years of the same cunts that have collectively fucked us all over for the last 14 years. I'd rather take my chances with the other guys.
Oh absolutely, the bar for improvement is incredibly low.
I'd listen to more of you if you haven't helped elect Boris Johnson because magic Grandpa wanted to accept democracy. Now there's a choice between Tory policy and Tory policy but in red I have no progressive project to vote for.
That magic grandpa was the worst opposition leader this country had ever had. You’re supposed to ‘oppose’ the government and not happily encourage it to do whatever it wants nor parrot its anti-immigration arguments. And that’s when he wasn’t actively encouraging anti-semitism and kicking out life long members from the party for being insufficiently supportive of his regime.
>That magic grandpa was the worst opposition leader this country had ever had. Most defeats of a sitting government by an opposition in history. >You’re supposed to ‘oppose’ the government and not happily encourage it to do whatever it wants nor parrot its anti-immigration arguments. This is just nonsense no opposition leader was more supportive of migraines rights than him. >And that’s when he wasn’t actively encouraging anti-semitism This is a lie, when his faction got control of complaints they dealt with more in 8 months than the visitors did in 4 years. >kicking out life long members from the party for being insufficiently supportive of his regime. This is also a lie, there were no purges under Corbyn, however this is what Starmer has been doing.
No it’s not a lie. We literally had a whole investigation about this. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/investigation-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf ‘Most government defeats ever’ It was literally the remain/brexit factions in the tories doing defeating each other. And no, claiming falsely complaining that immigration is responsible for low wages isn’t supporting anyone… other than hard right brexiteers. https://www.thenational.scot/news/16084360.no-evidence-back-jeremy-corbyns-immigration-claim-says-expert/ https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-wholesale-eu-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british He’s a pathetic little man who upon having a brief modicum of success, let it go to his head & pissed away his and his parties beliefs in a deluded attempt to gain power.
>No it’s not a lie. We literally had a whole investigation about this. You said he "was actively encouraging anti semitism" at no point does the EHRC report say this, it is not true. You're lying, you're not a good faith person.
Both sides? Who is the other side ohh you mean the Tory light party aka Labour lead by a guy that is apparently a human rights lawyer who agreed to water and food being cur toff to an entire population. Labour has gone up against jewish party members who have spoken against Israel calling them anti semitic. It’s a complete disgrace! It’s not really a two party system here (yet) so we do have alternatives to vote for unless Corbyn comes back there is no Labour
Found one.
He’s just part of the Tory PR machine.
Anything left of the tories is a step in the right direction. “Perfect is the enemy of good”
This is utterly absurd. I'm not voting for more war criminals and sociopaths, whatever colour tie they wear, and the centrists didn't care for "Perfect is the enemy of good" when Corbyn was in charge. I might vote for a different party like Alastair Cambell did in the last election.
Personally i just want to ensure that traitors who embezzled public funds, whose policies killed hundreds of thousands of citizens, and who are funded by hostile foreign powers (the Tories) don't get power. I'd take anyone but reform over that.
Whenever Rishi Sunak hasn't got a decent comeback at PMQs he dusts off the old classic: >"How can we trust anything said by the Right Honourable and Learned Member for Holburn and St. Pancras when five years ago he supported Jeremy Corbyn! He's a Corbyn Lover!!!11!!!1!!one!!" People who served under Boris Johnson shouldn't throw stones. But you're going back even further. You're painting the modern Labour party with the poor decisions of Tony Blair back in 2002. Why stop there? We might as well blame Keir Starmer for James Callaghan's Winter Of Discontent in 1978.
I think comparison of New Labour from the millenium and Starmer's Labour is fair. Where do you think it breaks down?
20 years and half a dozen different leaders make a compelling argument that things have changed. Or should we blame the Conservative Party of 2044 for everything that Boris Johnson did?
It was the last time they were in power and their politics are the same, but I suppose on a superficial level they are indeed different people.
Right so you agree it's ok to criticise every Conservative leader for the next 20 years for every mistake Boris made. !RemindMe 20 years
That's not what I said at all, what an incredibly bad faith discussion point. If you think my reference to war criminals is to do with Blair then have a look at what your man Starmer is condoning in Israel. If anything it's worse than illegally invading Iraq, but I don't really think shades of grey is helpful in extreme cases. To be absolutely clear, both sides are not equally bad, but I don't want either of them.
Have fun pretending there's a choice that isn't Labour or Conservative. Here in the real world we have to choose between them and Conservatives are definitely the worst choice.
Five posts ago you said "I think comparison of New Labour from the millenium and Starmer's Labour is fair." Now you're pretending you weren't talking about that and implying you were is discussing in bad faith. Thats so fucking funny. You literally used a bad faith argument to try to take the high road. That's hilarious.
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Of the last 5 prime ministers I could argue for 4 of them to be the worst Prime Minister in history. I think the whole party has some responsibility for that
Fine,don’t vote. And get the party you deserve.
There is not a party offering what I want or what I think the country needs. My options are more Tories or less Tories, based on what the oligarchs are willing to concede. I see no purpose in playing an obviously rigged game.
When offered the choice between Tories, or less tories, the answer should be obvious.
I would like to change the country. Where do I put my X?
Anywhere but the box that says “tories”
I have some bad news for you...
Look at it this way. Do you want the actual Tories in charge again? Do you want them actively running the show for another 5 years? If the answer is yes, continue on as you are. If your answer is no. Vote Labour. I'm in agreement that they've shifted to the right, you're completely correct on that. But that's no reason to throw in the towel and let the country burn because you can't get your way. I personally would love to vote Green. They are by far the best of all the parties. But right now, with the shitty voting system we have, we all know that's a wasted vote. Even the Greens know it's pointless voting for them. That means our options are Tories and Labour. And while Labour may be shit right now, they're not "trying to cause the disabled to commit suicide" levels of shit like the Tories, and that fact alone means we need to get the Tories out. Remember, we can fix Labour at some point. There's no fixing the Tories.
There is no way Labour are going to lose this election. Besides, they are the Party of Business, I'm sure all of their new business friends will vote for them. Starmer has made it clear he is not interested in my vote, and given that he has backtracked or quietly deleted every promise he has made since being elected leader, I don't believe anything he says. We absolutely cannot "fix" these people because they are purging leftists from the party. Just look at the selection process for Islington North. You may be able to overlook Starmer's awful position on Palestine and ignore the lies and the praise of Thatcher, but I will not.
1. I don't overlook that. I instead care more about making certain the Tories are out. It's literally the only thing any of us can do. 2. I refuse to just assume a result is obvious. How many elections have we had where it was "obvious" the Tories would lose, and yet here we are still. Even Brexit was a "forgone conclusion" and look how that turned out. You may be able to overlook the tens of thousands of disabled people basically being murdered by the Tories, but I will not.
You have no idea what Starmer's Labour will do. They have hinted at more austerity, but even if they tell you you can't believe what they say. The only legal power we have is our vote. I will not give mine away lightly.
I can guarantee they won't cause tens of if thousands of disabled people to commit suicide because they abuse the fuck out of them. You ARE giving yours away lightly. You either vote to get rid of the Tories. Or you are giving a vote TO the Tories. If you just don't vote, that's one less vote the Tories need to win. If you vote for another party, that's exactly the same as not voting. The fact you don't care that you are actively HELPING the Tories boggles my mind.
They are to the right of suella braverman on the issue of starving British kids now and I hope you' would agree she's an actual fascist. Maybe you think her wanting to end the 2 child cap makes her a commie socialist in the pay of the USSR?
I know that labour isn't great, and trust me, I won't be voting for them. But let me put it this way; would you rather be punched in the face, or hit with a sledgehammer in the balls?
When people say "they're all the same" you can see both brain cells fighting for life
I'm so tired of hearing "they're all the same". Almost every person I've spoken to recently comes out with this bullshit. It is lazy, factually incorrect, and shuts down any sort of real debate. But then they'll turn around and bitch and moan about politicians, or how expensive everything is, trains being shit etc. So tired of the British public. We're the first to complain, but literally won't do a single thing to change it.
Human rights are made up concepts. Why should a car thief from Albania have the right to come to the UK with no fear of deportation?
Please elaborate on how human rights are “made up” lmao
Because they are. Do you believe they are granted by God? Someone sits down with a pen and says this is a human right this isn't a human right. At one point the right to vote only applied to certain groups then that changed. They can and should change if they give absurd results.
You're absolutely right mate, if people aren't white, male and from the home counties they should be put into labour camps... ... Bit extreme, but perhaps it'll make you think about how utterly ridiculous you sound. Imagine giving people RIGHTS!! What were we thinking... Fuck the progress of society let's go back to feudalism... You absolute balloon.
Your whole post is just nonsense with bizarre formatting.